Dave (2s): Spring Creek fishing can be super challenging. The fish are spooky. Water conditions aren’t always perfect, and sometimes it’s hard to present a fly just right. Today’s guest makes his living fishing Spring Creeks and the Driftless. And today you’re gonna find out how to find fish in the winter and during nighttime and throughout the year on Spring Creeks. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip. And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. How’s it going? I’m Dave host of the We Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid. I grew up around a little fly shop and have created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts in this country. I’ve also interviewed more of the greatest fly anglers and guides than just about anyone out there. Dave (44s): PJ Smith, a guide in the Driftless area, is going to share some of his secrets to success on finding and catching fish. You’re gonna find out how to sneak up on these spooky fish and how to position yourself for success, whether you should be casting upstream or downstream and drifting it down to them. And how to fish a mouse frog in the nighttime. It’s all today. We’re gonna get into this. Plus you are gonna find out when fishing is not fishing, and when not fishing is fishing. PJ will explain it all today. Here we go. PJ Smith from pj guide service.com. How you doing pj? PJ (1m 23s): I’m doing great. How are you doing, Dave? Dave (1m 25s): I’m doing great. Yeah, it’s good to talk to you on the air here. We, we connected a while back during our, when we were over there in the Driftless school that we had going. Yeah. And we saw you at at Jason’s cabin. Yes. Which was cool. You were out fishing? We were out fishing. It was pretty awesome. Yeah. How have things been going since then? What have you been up to since we saw you? I think you was late September, right? PJ (1m 43s): Oh, it’s been great. Finished out the season real strong. I kind of set a goal for myself in September and October to fish as much as I can. And I did 53 days straight. Wow. On the water guide trips and then just personal trips. Did some musky fishing, little bit of small moh fishing, and then obviously trout. So, wow. Yeah. Just been kinda all over the place. Dave (2m 12s): What’s 53 days for those that aren’t fishing every day? What’s it feel like when you do? I remember a time back when I had a lot of, a lot more time. I think I, I got not quite there. I think I was in the over a month. But What’s it feel like when you’re 53 days every day fishing? PJ (2m 27s): Some days you kinda are like, man, I don’t know if I want this to keep going. Other days I, it’s not an issue. I get up and go fishing and get after it and that, but some days you get a little tired of it, you’re like, well, maybe it’s time to wrap it up. But, you know, it’s kinda one of my goals that I like to do. And I’ve done a lot of 50, so 53 is three extra days and really pushing it in that. But usually when I’m done then I switch over to deer hunting and stuff. So that’s kinda, you know, I, I get into the deer hunting and that and I don’t even think about fishing too much other than just tying some flies. Dave (3m 7s): Yeah. Is that the thing, like right now we’re kind of in the, it’s gonna be, Christmas is right around the corner then January. Are you, are you doing much fishing during this time of year? PJ (3m 16s): So I’ll do a little bit of like muskie fishing and that with family. I get clients and that too. But I usually wrap that up right around October. ’cause then I go right into November and I come to Missouri and hunt. We have a family farm and I do that, but I’m usually getting ready, you know, we’re doing shows where time flies and then just really getting ready for, you know, the season to start there. In Wisconsin. Child season opens up the first Saturday in January. So this year or 2025 will be January 4th. PJ (4m 1s): So yeah. So we’ll be jumping right into it. I’ve already got some trips booked for early season. Usually just half day stuff ’cause it’s cold and no one wants to fish for eight hours in the cold. Dave (4m 14s): Right. It’s cold. So That’s cool. So basically the season in the Driftless area closes, I guess, in Wisconsin closes. When is the last day it’s open? PJ (4m 23s): So trout season ends October 15th. And that’s been a number of years since they’ve started that. It used to end in September and now they’ve lengthened it out, which is kind of nice. Dave (4m 36s): Yeah. And why is it closed October 15th? PJ (4m 39s): Most, from what I’ve heard is it’s mostly because of the deer hunting. And then it actually gives the T trout a break. They’re usually spawning the, the browns and the trot are spawning, So it gives them a break. They can do their thing. And then I think for a lot of people it gives them a break and they can go deer hunting and stuff, so, Dave (5m 1s): Yeah, that’s right. Okay. And gives you a little break. Right. So you can do your stuff and then, so January 4th. Exactly. PJ (5m 6s): It kinda gives me a break. I can do a little musky fishing. I enjoy that. I like taking people out on that. Although there’s a lot of other guys that they’re super hardcore into it. I kinda, I’m like the beginner muskie fly guide for people. I just show ’em how painful it can be. Dave (5m 26s): Yeah. Yeah. Muskie is a, yeah, a lot of cast for Muskie. That’s it. What is the, PJ (5m 31s): Yeah, a lot of casting. Dave (5m 32s): What is the on the, the Drift list? So we were, we were there when we met you kind of late September, you know, I think the water conditions were pretty low, you know, it was, we definitely worked to find fish, but we had some success for Take It to January. What does that look like? How is January different? What should be people, if they’re thinking about getting out there in the wintertime? Is it quite a bit different than September? PJ (5m 53s): Oh, most definitely. The September this year it was still pretty warm. Although we’ve had low water for January, it’s gonna be kind of the same. We haven’t had a ton of water. So things are a little low. Water’s gonna be cold, so they’re gonna be a little lethargic. You wanna make sure you’re hitting warm sunny days and then you’re just gonna have to be really sneaky. ’cause that water is usually gin clear during that time. You’re kind of looking for bugs. We get kind of a hatch of small stone flies that come out. Little black stone flies. Oh wow. Which is kind of cool. If we get any snow, it looks like somebody sat there and peppered the snow. PJ (6m 38s): You’ll see these little tiny bugs on the snow and you’re like, oh, what is that? It looks like dirty snow. And then you look at it and it’s moving. So yeah, it’s kind of cool. Wintertime fishing, it’s just, I don’t know, it’s a great way to get out. If there’s snow on the ground, it’s awesome to see. You just have to be a little careful. We get ice shells really bad, so you gotta really kind of pay attention to that stuff. You don’t wanna get plowed over by a nice sheet coming down the river, so you just gotta head on a swivel watching that. But it can be productive. Even dry fly. I, I usually will because the indicators are usually so big. PJ (7m 21s): I usually just tie on a small dry and use that as my indicator and have caught fish on the dry as well in January and February. Dave (7m 31s): Right. So you got stone flies, you got, and it sounds like it’s a little bit of a, do you do a little mix of techniques nipping, dries, whatever it takes during January? PJ (7m 40s): Yeah, mostly nipping during that time. I’ll run little black leeches too. I mean that’s kind of a nim streamer type thing. I think they think it’s either the Blackstones that are coming up and that. It’s kinda one of those things that you just kinda gotta play your odds. Fin you can’t go wrong in the drift lists. Anything behead seems to work. Dave (8m 3s): Yeah, it does. Okay. And, and the drift lists, for the most part, these are all spring creeks. Right. And they’re, I think a lot of the stuff we fished was fairly small. Do you have a mixture of sizes or is that the, like that stream that was out backed by Jason’s place? Oh yeah. Is that a typical size stream for the Driftless? PJ (8m 18s): Yeah. That’s pretty typical for the Wisconsin Driftless. That’s, I mean, there is some bigger water here and there, but yeah, most of it’s pretty thin, pretty small. Dave (8m 28s): Yeah. What are your best tips on that? So you’re fishing these small creeks where these fish are, I’ve seen a lot of people, some of them, right. How do you, yeah. What are your tips on getting hooked up with a fish? One is, I said yeah, wait till a warm day. So you don’t wanna be getting out there like early in the morning before the sun’s on the water. PJ (8m 44s): You know, I kind of, you can sleep in on the winter months if there’s a lot of snow, you wanna hit it like late morning. If you go too far into it, it, if there’s any snow melt that starts shutting stuff down really quick. ’cause that just dumps a whole bunch of cold water and the fish just, they’ll turn off. It’s, yeah, one of those. And again, that’s why you’re only out there for a few hours. Dave (9m 9s): Yeah. So it’s a short window. So like 10 to one or something like that. 10 to two. PJ (9m 14s): Yeah. Yeah. Usually in that gives you a chance to get out there. But you don’t have to like grunt through it. You know, some guys will really push through and try to do as many hours as they can, but I don’t know, it, to me it’s kind of the leisure time, just getting outside and that, you know, you, you tie some flies. I kind of do it as like tie some flies in the morning, have a good breakfast, and then get out there, fish for a little bit, catch a few fish, enjoy the day with friends. Have a couple of beverages of your choice and then, you know, call it early and go home and eat good and have fun. PJ (9m 55s): Yep. Dave (9m 55s): Get ready for another day. PJ (9m 57s): Exactly. Yeah. Dave (9m 57s): Exactly. Yeah. Is it a lot different fishing the winter than fishing? Like when do you think throughout the year we were there in September. What are the other times throughout the year? I guess it you could fish. Yeah. Is it very a lot. PJ (10m 10s): Yeah. Springtime is probably the best. That’s when you’re gonna see the most people out there. I think a lot of people like to fish it because the vegetation is still pretty low. And usually the best bug activity is usually then. Yeah. I mean I love fishing in the fall, don’t get me wrong, like September, October. There’s a reason why I try to put as many days as I can on the calendar with fishing. Right. In September and October, Dave (10m 38s): Today’s episode is presented by anglers. Coffee. 3 (10m 44s): Coffee, the angler’s ritual. A reason to leave your cozy covers even if you aren’t headed to the river. We started angler’s coffee ’cause Well we love to fish, we love coffee and we care. Think of it as the rise before the rise. Dave (11m 9s): You can head over to anglers coffee.com right now and if you use the coupon code Brew 20 at checkout, you can get 20% off your next door. And what’s going on there? What is the difference between the September versus the springtime? PJ (11m 24s): September The vegetation’s super high. If we haven’t gotten water, the water’s thin, so you have to be a little more sneaky. You just usually can, I don’t know, they’re, they’re putting the feedback on ’cause they’re getting ready to spawn so they’re a little more active. The colors of the vegetation, you know, you get that awesome fall color throughout that Driftless area, which is an amazing place. So you have that springtime, you’ve got a huge flush of green. Everything’s growing up. You’ve got a lot of cool flowers that are popping up. So that’s really cool. Usually you’ve had enough snow, so the water’s up a little bit more. PJ (12m 6s): The fish are pretty active ’cause they’ve been really lethargic all winter along. And then springtime, they’re just popping off. They’re eating everything. You’ve got fresh, you know, bugs in the air. So you, the dryly action’s pretty good. Then you’re getting some spring rains, which will cause stuff to get in there so you can get a good streamer action if the water’s a little dirty. So it’s a great mix. I mean you can fish pretty much year round in the drift list. If you go over to Iowa or whatever, you can fish year round. Yeah. But there in Wisconsin I close it up, which is nice. PJ (12m 46s): But yeah, I mean it, it can fish good all the time. But springtime and late fall I think are the best. Summertimes have been getting so hot that we kind of give ’em a break. Yeah, Dave (12m 59s): Give it a break. What are your, if you are there, let’s say winter time, take it back to that. What are your kind of tips on sneak being sneaky? How do you make sure these fish, you know, aren’t, you know, you’re getting a chance, a shot at ’em? PJ (13m 12s): Well, that’s a good one. I usually, most of the time when people see me, I’m wearing camo and all that stuff. During the winter, I’ll just wear whatever nice warm jacket and that which happens to be kind of a grayish color, which might blend in a little bit. I try to avoid getting on the high bank. I usually try to get in the water too. That lowers your Oh, right. Your profile quite a bit. So you just, you know, you’ve gotta do everything that you would do normally. But with the vegetation being so low, you just gotta be a little more sneaky. Try not to be super loud if you are, I just let ’em rest for like five minutes too. PJ (13m 56s): Okay. Dave (13m 57s): Yeah. So you let ’em rest so you get in the water with them. And these are kinda small streams. So are you typically casting upstream at a, you know, towards a fish? Is that how’re? Yep. Yeah. PJ (14m 6s): Yeah, definitely an upstream fish. Although I do a lot of downstream stuff too. Especially for new people, new anglers. The upstream fishing can be kind of tough. ’cause as soon as that fly lands, it’s coming right back at you. So with a new person, I’ll, I’ll tend to fish downstream. Dave (14m 26s): Yeah, so you like drift it down to ’em so you’re, PJ (14m 29s): Yeah. Yeah. Dave (14m 30s): Right. So both, both things. I remember there was one, I think it was on Jason’s stream that day, that first day I was there. I was just working my way upstream. You know, I was kind near the bank, you know, trying to stay as low as possible. And you know, there was like a riffle coming down, a little bit broken. Then it turned into a little bit of a glide or a pool and I was kind of casting my, I think I had a dry dropper on, but I was casting up into the riffle and then letting it drift down. I had some action that way. Is that, are you, are you spotting fish or, you know, how do you, how does that look? How are you finding fish and then how are you getting them to hook up? PJ (15m 2s): I’d pretty much say most of the time we’re blind fishing. There are times when you can see ’em, you can see ’em rising obviously when there’s dryly action and stuff. But yeah, we’re usually, I’m running a dry dropper pretty much 80% of the time. And then the other 10 is dryly action strictly. And then I’ll run streamers as well. And it, it may not be that total 10% and all that, but with a dry drop where you can’t go wrong. If I had my choice, I could fish a, like a hippie stop or a, a rubber lake stimulator and then a pink squirrel. PJ (15m 44s): And you couldn’t go wrong the entire season with that set up. Yeah. Dave (15m 49s): Oh really? Okay. So a big, nice big dry fly. Like what size would the, the hippie stomper be? PJ (15m 55s): I usually glue like a 12 or 14, which is kind of small. It’s not like the out west stimulator. Yeah. A little small. You know, everybody thinks those stimulates are really big and they make ’em pretty small for fish in the Driftless. Okay. But they’re big enough that you can see ’em. And they represent like our, just all kinds of bugs. Like any of our little grasshoppers that come off, even moths and stuff like that, that land on the water. So it works pretty good. You know, that’s the same as the ants and all that. Dave (16m 29s): Okay. So you got a nice 1214 kind of, you know, hippy stomper or a stimulator, something like that. Yep. And then below that, maybe just talk about your leader setup. How do you do it? Describe how you do it to dropper. PJ (16m 40s): Well, I, I keep my leader system pretty simple. I just use a seven and a half foot, three x or a four x and then I just add on to that as needed. I like to start with that just ’cause most of my clients are gonna be slightly newer and a seven and a half foot liter is fairly easy to turn over. And we’re casting pretty short. If it was too much longer in that 12 foot range or whatever, you know, most of the cast aren’t even that far. Hardly. So, yeah. Dave (17m 14s): Gotcha. Seven and a half foot. So you take the lead and you tie on your, your big dry to the front and then you just tip tie it off the shank of the hook into the or or off the, PJ (17m 22s): Yeah, I, I’m kinda old school that way, just right onto the shank. I know there’s a lot of other methods and I, I mess around with it, you know, Jason has kind of been helping me with a little bit of euro nipping and that, and there’s a lot of setup with that. Yeah, of course. When you mess it up, it takes you half an hour, which is not a bad thing there in the drift list. Don’t be in a hurry. Right. When you’re fishing there, it’s okay to get tangled up and take some time. Dave (17m 52s): Yeah. Well I’d imagine a Euro NPH would work well under a dry dropper. Is that what you’re fishing? PJ (17m 58s): Yeah, just a, a regular nymph. I do run a lot of like the newer jig style tungsten beads and that you just gotta make sure you’ve got enough tip on there. And typically it’s about 18 to 24 inches, depending on the situation. If I gotta go deeper than I usually switch over to like an indicator and then try to go a little deeper. Like if I’m trying to get into a deeper hole and stuff. Dave (18m 27s): Yep. Gotcha. I mean it sounds like, you know, if you’re, you know, on the water, I mean, maybe talk about the fish a little bit. You mentioned a few of the species, I can’t remember the largest fish we caught, but there’s a mixture of sizes. What, what is, you know, talk about the species and then kind of sizes of fish out there? PJ (18m 43s): Well, the true native there is the brook trout and they’re usually kind of tiny. If you’re catching a 15 inch brook trout, that’s like a trophy in the Driftless. And they are, you don’t find too many fifteens anymore. It’s a typical cookie cutter that nine to 10 inch, maybe a little smaller for the brookies. And then you have brown trout, which have done extremely well. They were introduced a long time ago and they, they do very well in the Driftless and they can get pretty big over 20. If you talk to the old guys that used to fish there 50 plus years ago, they talked about catching lots of twenties, thirties. PJ (19m 32s): So big fish, you don’t see too many thirties. I know there’s a few guys that really haunt ’em, but they’re not gonna be in those smaller streams per se. Dave (19m 43s): Where are those 30, like 20 inch plus? Where are those gonna be? PJ (19m 47s): They’re gonna be in the bigger water, usually deep poles. They are around you just gotta, you really gotta work for ’em. And they tend to be very mostly nocturnal. They’re hunting at night, that’s when the bigger stuff’s coming out. That’s when you could do ing or Oh right. Big streamer fishing. But they will come out now and again, I’ve had a few clients that have caught ’em on, on nymphs. Andries it, it doesn’t happen often, but when it does it’s pretty cool. Dave (20m 19s): Gotcha. So that’s good. So basically, yeah, the brown trout, for the most part, if you get, wanna get serious, it’s probably, you wanna be thinking, you know, maybe the nighttime is that, you know, if you wanna try to PJ (20m 29s): Yeah, yeah. Nighttime is pretty fun. It’s not for everybody though, you know, that water can be, even though it’s small, it can be pretty deep in spots So it can be dangerous and there’s, there’s so many drop offs in that. Oh right. I don’t wanna discourage people. No. I just, you know, if you’re gonna fish a spot at night, make sure you know what you’re doing and Right. Dave (20m 49s): How do you do that at night? So are you, are you picking a night where the moon’s out or how are you even seeing, how does that work? PJ (20m 56s): Again, you gotta kind of know the area pretty well. Some guys like the night with Sky with a full moon or Pretty Good moon. I’ve fished, you know, full Moon all the way to No Moon when it’s absolutely completely pitch black out there. A lot of the areas that I fish at night are areas that I know very, very well. Like I know every nook and cranny where all the drop offs are installed. Yep. And then I just make sure I have a headlamp, I have a headlamp that has like red or green light and then also has a white light. And then I will carry usually a spare headlamp. PJ (21m 39s): And then I also carry a small flashlight too if things get super serious and I need a light to get out and I make sure I tell people, you know, tell my wife where I’m going and stuff. Or if we’re there with clients and that we obviously have each other and stuff. Dave (21m 57s): The fisher are moving and the runs are coming Fast gear up for all your swinging adventures with the RS collection from Squala fly fishing. You can head over to squala fishing.com right now and use the coupon code wetly Swing 10 at checkout to get 10% off your first order. That’s wet fly swing one zero at checkout to get 10% off. When you’re doing that, when you go for the nighttime stuff, is it, you know, streamers, mousey, I mean, talk about that a little bit. What do you think is the most effective method? PJ (22m 30s): I have found both like the bigger streamers, you know, the two to three inch size is pretty good for those small streams. And then I’ll actually fish a mouse patterns that are tied on two OTs. So big stuff like that, you know, so I’m not afraid to throw really bigger flies at ’em. I think they can sense and feel them in the water better so they can trigger on them. But I’ve also kinda downsized some of my stuff too. I started tying some of these master splinters, which is a nice little ing pattern. And I think I’m tying those on like a six atu, which is like a perfect little hook for ’em. PJ (23m 18s): It’s got a nice gap on it. And I think it kinda represents a like small frog, even though it’s a, A mouse pattern. Yeah. I think they’re thinking it’s a frog. Oh right. So they’re eating them pretty readily that way. It’s, it’s pretty cool. I had a friend that caught a really nice over 20 a few years ago, which was awesome. Dave (23m 39s): Right. So this is in the evening at the in dark. PJ (23m 42s): Oh yeah, definitely at dark. We kind of hit it, you know, during the summer it doesn’t get dark until almost 10 o’clock. So we’re we’re, you know, it’s after 10. Yeah, it’s usually that, you know, nine 30 to 10 30, 11, maybe even later than that. I fish as late as three o’clock in the morning. But that was back when I was young and dumb. So Dave (24m 6s): How are you finding those fish, the, the ones that these bigger browns? Like if, are you spotting ’em beforehand? PJ (24m 12s): I am usually hitting spots that have deep poles. Yeah. It’s areas that I’ve fished before and I just know that they’re gonna be in the deeper holes. I may have seen some fish here and there. You know, I’m fishing a lot of different water throughout the season, so I’m kind of seeing fish here and there. So I kind of keep that in my memory bank or write it down in my notebook and that, and then I’ll come back. It just kind of depends on situation, but it’s gotta be areas that I’ve usually fished before. And some areas they change though. I’ve had a few areas that after some flooding and that they don’t fish quite as well. That way, you know, it’s filled in a little bit and change some stuff. PJ (24m 55s): So it does change, which is kinda gives you something to do. You’ve gotta re revisit all those areas every now and again. Dave (25m 3s): Right. So can you do this in the winter or is this mainly like a summertime thing? PJ (25m 8s): Usually summertime, but I know some guys that kind of do some, I wouldn’t say winter, it’s kind of like late, late winter, early spring. Yeah, they’ll do some stuff. It’s kind of based off of when the frogs start moving. You know, everybody thinks it’s all it’s mice and stuff like that. But I really think they’re kind of keying in on the fact that these are frogs. Frogs. Right. So once the frogs start coming out, that’s when things are gonna start heating up for that part of it. Dave (25m 36s): Gotcha. Right. So you got a few options and you can, like you said, you can like kind of February march is when you can start maybe doing some night fishing in that range. PJ (25m 44s): Yeah, I mean it’s probably a little tougher the, if there’s any snow on the ground though, like that you can usually see a little bit better because the snow, that there’s enough light reflection you can see maybe a little bit. So yeah. Dave (25m 57s): Are you just casting, you know, you have a pool, it’s dark, you know, the pool. Are you just casting across the pool, letting it sink? Talk about how you’re stripping the flies. PJ (26m 6s): So for night fish, I’m basically casting across and I’ll let it kind of swing downstream because you want this thing to kinda wake, Dave (26m 15s): Oh PJ (26m 15s): Right. This is a bigger fly there. It’s, if it’s a mouse, they’re trying to, you know, swim up on top of the water. If it’s a frog, obviously it’s just kind of swimming around. Dave (26m 28s): Yeah, they’re trying to get out, they’re not like staying in the middle of the, the creek. Right, right. PJ (26m 32s): Yeah. They usually don’t, they’re trying to get away from where it is. So, so I’ll kind of try to hit the opposite paint as best I can and then just swing it through. So it is a lot of like downstream fishing. Hmm. Dave (26m 47s): Okay. So you’re swinging, so you got the creek, you’re casting kind of downstreaming across and just, are you just letting it swing or are you doing anything as it, it’s going down. PJ (26m 56s): I might put a little twitch onto it. It will really depend on, you know, I kinda start with just a regular swing without putting a twitch. If I get a couple of hits that aren’t like super hard, I might put a twitch on it that makes them hit a little harder. There may be times where, you know, I feel like there should have been a fish there, so maybe I don’t twitch as much, so maybe they’re not as scared by it. Dave (27m 23s): Gotcha. PJ (27m 24s): So I kinda let the fish determine and it, and it changes day to day. Sometimes those fish just get kind of finicky and in that they want something that’s maybe a little more subtle or maybe they want something that’s a little more crazy. You know, when the, the bats start coming out. You know, that’s another thing that falls in the water now and again, we’ve seen that. And when a bat lands on the water, let me tell you, there’s a huge commotion. Dave (27m 50s): Oh right, yeah. When the bat’s trying to get out of there. PJ (27m 52s): Yeah. So that’s, you’re, you’re just gonna be ripping that fly as hard as he can. Dave (27m 57s): Oh right. So you think those browns are eating bats as well? PJ (28m 1s): Yeah. Yeah. They, I don’t know. I’ve seen some video and stuff and then I’ve caught a few bats night fishing and that. That’s always interesting. Wow. Dave (28m 9s): So it’s a little bit different. It’s almost the opposite, right? You think about daytime, you know, spring Creek fishing, it’s clear, the fish can see. You gotta be really subtle and you gotta not spook ’em. But this thing is like the opposite, right? It’s dark. You’re trying to get as much commotion as possible. Does it fee feel like it’s like night and day? PJ (28m 25s): Yeah, it’s definitely one of those, you can be a little more, I don’t know, just crashing through a little bit more. Yeah. Although you’ve gotta be kind of subtle, you know, that’s their home you’re crashing into so they know what’s going on. You know, if they’re in a field that doesn’t have cattle or anything like that, you crashing through the water, that’s gonna be something that alarms ’em. If you’re in a field that has cows crashing through the water isn’t gonna be as big a deal. So, Dave (28m 55s): Okay. PJ (28m 55s): But yeah, night fishing you can get away with a lot of stuff, but you, you know, it brings in a whole nother set of things. You know, you’re casting in the dark, you know, everybody thinks that you keep your headlamp on and stuff. And I’m like, no, no, no, no. It’s completely dark. Dave (29m 11s): Right. So how do you keep from getting snagged up? You just kind of know where the trees are and all that. PJ (29m 16s): You again, you’ve gotta really know your area and you gotta know your past. And I think that’s why a lot of people don’t, some people just don’t like night fishing. You fall down, you, you catch on the grass everywhere. Right? So it’s not as fun that way. You’re spending a lot of time on tling your stuff and trying to figure it out. Again, that’s where keeping a nice short leader and really knowing how to keep that cast tight is efficient. Roll casting so you don’t have to go behind you. Yep. That’s pretty key. Again, that short leader is gonna help that bigger fly turnover better too. So. Yep. Wow. PJ (29m 56s): You know, and we’re switching over to like probably a two x liter two. It’ll just help it turn over better. Dave (30m 3s): Yeah. That’s awesome. Nice. This is cool. So I think we got a good start here. Well I, I wanna talk more about kind of some getting back into the daytime and some tips on, you know, catching some of those brook trot. ’cause I think the brook trot are amazing, right? They’re the native, the native species out there. They’re beautiful, they’re so awesome. PJ (30m 17s): They’re such a beautiful color and yeah, Dave (30m 20s): It is pretty cool. But bring us back real quick. Let’s, we didn’t get your fly fishing, you know, story. So take us back there a little bit. What’s your, how’d you get into the fly fishing and becoming a guide? PJ (30m 29s): Oh, well I’ve been fishing since I was a little kid, like two years old. And then I fished Canada and up in Alaska and had conventional gear. Dave (30m 41s): Did you grow up in the Midwest? PJ (30m 43s): I did grow up in the Midwest in the Chicago land area of Illinois. Yep. So, yeah, so had a farm here in Missouri, fished a lot of farm pond for bass and stuff like that. And then was able to go to some cool places and fish with my grandparents and my uncle. And then when I got into college, started just like trying to fish real alter light stuff. Your bigger fish, you know, that typical progression you try to catch the biggest fish on smallest stuff. Yeah. Dave (31m 17s): Were you, were you fly fishing in college or? PJ (31m 19s): No, I hadn’t, hadn’t started fly fishing. I had seen the movie and was really intrigued by it and I was done with school, done with college, working full time. And my mom had a friend that knew how to fly fish, so I had a place that I could fish and he kind of taught me how to, and then, I don’t know if you know Marco Varga, he runs hairline dubbing. Oh Dave (31m 49s): Yeah, yeah, no, I do. Yeah, I know him. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I know Mark. PJ (31m 51s): Yeah, he had a fly shop in Glen Ellen called Flying Field. And my buddy couldn’t really teach us anymore, so he’s like, oh, you should go over and talk to Marcos. And that’s what really got me going. And right at that same time I started dating my wife Donna. So, and she fell in love with the casting part of it. So that’s what kind of started it. We kind of did this thing together and we actually took a class for trout fishing up in the drift list. And then we just continued to go back and my wife became a certified casting instructor and I was like, oh, I just loved it so much. PJ (32m 34s): And Bill Harrell, he was with Marcos and he was kind of my mentor and we kind of just really gelled well together and I kept saying, oh, I’d love to guide and all that. And one day he just kind of told me to shut up and do it. Yeah. And just shut up. And that was the little push that I needed. And that’s, that’s what started it. I think I’m going on my, I think this next year will be 15 years. Oh wow. So I did it part-time for a long time. And then 2018 I left my full-time job there in the Chicago land area and decided to go full-time. PJ (33m 15s): And then 2019 I got Orvis endorsed and never looked packed. Yep. And I’ve been happy ever since, obviously meeting great people along the way and we just love it. Dave (33m 29s): Yeah. Wow. That’s cool. PJ (33m 30s): And it’s nice enough that my wife loves flight fishing as much as I do. Yep. She’s done, well actually she’s in a buddy of mine, his book, she loves Musky Fishing and she caught a real nice muskie and we affectionately call her hashtag page 61. She’s in Kip v Musky book. So, Dave (33m 50s): Oh, which book is it? PJ (33m 52s): It’s Fly Fishing for Muskie Orvis Fly Fishing for Muskie by Kip V. Okay. So she’s page 61. She’s there with a nice 47 inch muskie that she caught, so. Wow. Yeah, it’s pretty cool. Dave (34m 6s): That is cool. Gosh. So that’s it. So you’ve been going strong for quite a while here and yeah. How have things been, you know, changing over the years since then? Take us back to 2019 until, obviously we went through Covid and stuff like that, but just on the, the trout fishing and things like that, has that been pretty consistent over the years? PJ (34m 22s): Yeah, I mean at first when everything was locked down we kinda had to take a, a break. Luckily we were able to go fishing but we couldn’t guide. And then once things opened up, everybody was pretty cool to it. I mean, you couldn’t ask for a better way to get outside and do stuff without being cooped up with some other, you know, cooped up together. So it’s, it was safe. We just, you know, implemented a lot of things that made it safe. You know, a lot of cool people kind of came out, started doing a lot of fly fishing and that we are seeing a little bit of a decline because of, you know, everybody’s going back to work, they don’t have as much free time again. PJ (35m 4s): So I think all, everybody’s kind of seeing that the, the companies that are making rods and reels are seeing it, you know, so we’re on other edge of the bubble. We, we need a movie again or something. Dave (35m 18s): Right, right. We need another, another river through it. Yeah. PJ (35m 20s): You don’t need another covid or anything like that. That was too much. But Dave (35m 25s): Yeah, we need some more fly fishing movies to get us going. Well let’s take it back into the daytime now and just we’ll get you Sure. Yeah. A few more tips outta here. So let’s take it to the casting is something short cast, things like that. But what are the, the cast you’re teaching people or maybe somebody who has experience, what are they needing to do to get, you know, a good cast around these trees and all the obstructions? PJ (35m 45s): Yeah, so I tell people like get out and practice. I think if you talk to any guy they wish you would always get out and practice ’cause that it makes a huge difference. You don’t have to cast a mile when you’re fishing on the Driftless. I tell people if you’ve got a good like 20 foot cast and you can hit a Dixie cup, that’s what you want. Accuracy is more important than distance. Dave (36m 12s): Yep. And are you fishing when you’re trying to hit? Maybe are you seeing a fish rise in the daytime and trying to hit that spot? Or are you finding like a seam, you know, how are you finding the fish? PJ (36m 22s): Yeah, we’re, look, we’re reading the water. Obviously if we see a a fish rise, we will obviously go for that. We’re trying to shoot for those spots. But we’re shooting for seams. We’re looking for holding water like behind a rock in front of a rock on the side of the rock, wherever they’re gonna be holding, you know, the riffles right at the beginning of a a pool at the end of the pool. Any holding water. So you’re gonna try to hit small spots in the water. The fish will move a little bit, but they won’t move a ton. Some days they’ll move quite a bit. But I’d say overall they don’t like to move too much. PJ (37m 4s): You know, they’re trying to feed and the more they have to move, the more they have to feed. So, so you’re hitting those small spots. They’re gonna be underneath vegetation, underneath rocks and that. So that’s, I tell people learn how to do a really good sidearm cast roll casting is huge. We get into spots where roll cast is very important. More than even a really good back cast. If you know how to roll cast and can roll cast really well. That’s probably the number one cast in the drift list. Dave (37m 38s): It is, PJ (37m 39s): Yeah. And you just have to know how to do it. It’s one that you can practice, you can, I can do it kind of side arm. So have a lot of that kind of stuff in your bag of goodies for fish in the Drift list. Dave (37m 51s): Yep. Do you guys cover, there’s a wide area of streams around, you know, that area, all sorts of, I mean I think that trip we were there, we drove around quite a bit, you know, find, you know, find the right spots, whether that was right off the highway or someplace more remote. What do you tell somebody if they’re thinking like, okay, I want to go do this, but I’m not quite sure where to go. PJ (38m 13s): So there is obviously a ton of water. I mean the drift list kind of covers Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, and a little smidge of Illinois. Most of them are gonna be in the first three states. So Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin. Wisconsin has the biggest section there and it goes all the way up from, oh, like Hudson area, which is by the Twin Cities all the way down to Prairie Dee and farther down. So there’s a ton of water there, obviously around where I’m at it, which is Westby, it’s near Roka. That’s like, I call that ground central right there. PJ (38m 55s): ’cause it is one of the bigger areas. Tons of water there. So yeah. So if you’re in the drift list, no matter what side you’re on, it’s gonna be good. Access in Wisconsin is great. Dave (39m 8s): Yeah it is. Right. You got public access, right? Anybody can, yeah. PJ (39m 10s): Really good public access. You just kinda gotta watch. Usually keeping your feet wet will, will do you good. But there is a lot of good access there that you can even get out of the water a little bit. Yeah, Dave (39m 24s): I did notice that on ours when the public access, it’s cool because I think the laws there in Wisconsin let you basically walk as long as you’re in the stream up to the ordinary high water mark or something like that. Right. And we were, well PJ (39m 35s): Is that how works it used to be that way now it’s in the, as long as you stay in the water, you’re Dave (39m 39s): Good. Okay. Stay in the water. Yeah. PJ (39m 41s): If you’re on an easement area, they usually allow, don’t quote me on that, but they allow outside of the water a certain amount. But I usually tell people, if you, if you’re keeping your feet wet, you’re gonna be good. Dave (39m 54s): Yeah. You’ll be good with the feet. Okay. Yeah. And we did that. I think that was something where it was kind of cool because yeah, you could be right there with the farmer right behind you And you know, it’s private property but you’re in the creek fishing and, And you know, so there’s more access. So that, that’s definitely a good thing. PJ (40m 8s): Yeah. Yeah. And I try to always like, you know, the big thing there is just being a good steward to all that land. Yeah. You know, there’s a reason why all that land is open to us. So we, we try to do it as best we can to keep that. It’s slowly changing a little bit. Some people are coming in there and they don’t like all the people there and that, so we’re losing some of it. But pick up your trash. Yeah. Pick up other people’s trash. Be good stewards. Always say hi to the farmer, you know, don’t open gates that you shouldn’t be opening and closing gates. You shouldn’t be closing. And it goes a long way. PJ (40m 49s): I mean, I’ve had farmers come up to me and they said, oh, I saw you here a few weeks ago and saw you picking all that trash. We really appreciate it. So, so even though they don’t, you don’t see them, they see you, you see. And yeah, if you’re doing good, they definitely notice it. And that’s what helps keep things open so we can fish it really well. That’s Dave (41m 8s): Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Well no I think that’s great. I think that leave it better than, you know, when you got there. That’s always a good PJ (41m 14s): Absolutely. Thing to Dave (41m 14s): Do. Well I wanna give one shout out here. This is a nice tool that I know can help people. Trout routes does. Oh yeah. Yeah. So we’re gonna give a shout out to Trout Routes today. They have a great, you know, tool which basically shows all, you know, access points, I mean all sorts of different things. So I’ve been using it quite a bit. It is an interesting thing, right? Because trout routes lets people find other areas. What, what’s your take on trout routes? Have you, have you seen this used it? Because I know the guides maybe have a little different take on it, right? People are, you’re seeing more people out there. Oh yeah. PJ (41m 47s): It is a tool. I mean, I’m kind of old school. I use a old Garmin ’cause it, my, my phone doesn’t always work down in the valley. So I use a Garmin GPS and I use a map, a paper map book if you can believe that. But guess what? Those work no matter where you are. Right. So there are, I know you can download some of it and it’ll track pretty good. Again, it’s a great tool. It has opened up a lot of stuff. It still doesn’t, it gives you a lot of good information so you can hopefully not trespass on someone’s water or land or whatever, but you just have to be pretty cognizant of it. PJ (42m 28s): And then things change too. And I think they’re, if I remember right, I think Trout routes just got bought by Onyx. Dave (42m 34s): They did. Yeah. PJ (42m 36s): So that should help too. ’cause they’ll, they’ll be able to make those changes a little more frequently, which is good. ’cause some of that water, it does change from open access to, to close so. Right. It is one of those things. Dave (42m 50s): And checking in probably is a good rule of thumb too. You know, if you’re unsure it’s easy to just stop by and knock on a door. Right. And meet somebody. PJ (42m 57s): Yeah. And most, I mean I don’t talk to a lot of farmers, but when I do, I always thank them for having that access and stuff. Yeah. But yeah, you can knock on a door if you’re not sure. If someone comes up to you and says, Hey, you know, don’t be afraid to just like get out. Even though your, your phone said different. Don’t, you know, I’ve heard of some stories of guys really starting something. Don’t start something because that just can end very badly. Yeah, Dave (43m 25s): Yeah. You don’t wanna mess with that. That’s, I mean I always find that, yeah. If the landowners are right, even if they’re wrong, you know? Right. PJ (43m 32s): Exactly. I mean you can go back, you can talk to the DNR and they might actually tell you one way or the other. But Yeah. I mean it’s another tool. It’s a useful tool. Technology has come a long way. You know, I still encourage people to get a guide though. Yeah. Because just knowing where the water is. Dave (43m 48s): Yeah, no that, that definitely flattens the learning curve for sure. PJ (43m 52s): But it is a nice thing that you can carry with you. It tells you even where to park sometimes, which is really good. ’cause some of those areas it, you don’t wanna block a farmer field or anything like that. Yep. You know, and, and since there’s so many more people out there, we have to be pretty conscious of that too. Dave (44m 12s): Yeah, that’s perfect. Well that kind of is our tool part. We’re gonna start to take this outta here with our kind of our tying tips tool and takeaway segment here. But let’s go back as we start to kinda wrap this up a little bit. Let’s start with the tying. So we mentioned a couple flies, but are you a big fly tire or it sounds like you tie some flies. What, what do you, if you were gonna be tying up, you know, a couple of patterns, you mentioned ’em, but you know, throughout the year or maybe focusing on that wintertime, what are those patterns that your kinda, your guide flies? PJ (44m 39s): Let’s see, pink squirrel, that’s a really well known fly in the direct list. Rubber leg stimulator. Hippie stomps. Yep. Are great. They make little small ones now, which are great. I always make sure I have black tan and kind of a big and small elk care cadi. Dave (45m 1s): Oh okay. Elk. Yeah. PJ (45m 3s): Yeah. Elk care cadi or you know, there’s kind of a multitude of caddi but you know, just a good old fashioned cadi is great. Bluing olives in every size. Trico I carry trico with me the entire time. I use them a lot for really small BWS in the early season. Okay. ’cause when they’re that small, I don’t think they’re really keying in on color. They’re just keying in on that size and shape. So I’ll use Trics for that. I don’t tie really tiny dry, so when I get those trics, I just use them for anything that’s super small that I can’t see. PJ (45m 43s): But I know they’re, yeah. What else is there? Griffiths, Nat, you know, any of the bead head stuff too. Any bead head nymphs are fantastic. Leach patterns are awesome there. I tie you, oh it’s called the a jiggy nymph streamer. So it’s kind of a tied to small pine squirrel, black olive, sometimes rust. And I, if I can find like a real light color, almost white, I’ll use that gray white and then a, just a big old tung bead on there on a jig hook. And then just kinda wrap that hair on there. PJ (46m 24s): Maybe a little flash on there. So it looks like a streamer, when you downstream fish it, when you’re upstream fishing, it gets really deep So it looks like a leach coming through the water. Yeah. Dave (46m 38s): Is that how you’re fishing those streamers? How are you fishing the streamer typically out there? PJ (46m 43s): Usually downstream and across, you know, that typical swing and across, sometimes if you’re going upstream you can rip ’em fast enough. But usually it’s such an odd way of, of fishing a streamer. But you can do it again. I’m pretty non-conventional. I fish a lot of my dry flies downstream as well. I do it on the swing, especially in the evening that cadi when they’re coming off or actually laying in that, that skittering cas downstream and across. Oh my gosh, Dave (47m 15s): That’s good. You PJ (47m 16s): Know, when that thing starts skittering across, watch out, they, they’ll key in on that pretty well. Dave (47m 22s): Skidding. Like elk care cadi. PJ (47m 24s): Yep, yep. Skidding Elk Care Cadi. Yep. Dave (47m 27s): Right. And skidding is just where you’re kind of moving your rod tip a little bit. PJ (47m 30s): Yeah. You’re just kind of moving the rod a little bit. I mean that, I don’t know, it’s kinda almost like skating a dry too. Sometimes they’ll like it a little faster. I don’t know if they’re thinking it’s a different bug or something like that. Crane flies, that’s another one I’m just thinking of flies off at the top of my head. Crane flies are really good in the grif lists. Dave (47m 51s): Like a crane fly nymph. PJ (47m 53s): No cream flies is a dry. Dave (47m 54s): Oh is a dry. Wow. That’s a, isn’t a crane fly a pretty decent sized bug? Oh PJ (47m 58s): Yeah. They’re super fun. Great little pattern for there. Little tip. If you’ve got an old elk care CADs that’s kinda str out, just cuts more of the elk hair cas or elk hair off. And then just really pull it to the side. That’ll get you by for a, just a little cream fly with straggly legs. Dave (48m 22s): Oh, okay. Oh right, the legs. Yep. PJ (48m 23s): Yeah. They’re keyed in on that moving leg and stuff, Dave (48m 26s): So yeah. Wow. This is great. So we got some good flies outta you. What about, we’ve talked to a number of tips here today, but what would be one other big tip you’d give somebody that let, let’s just stick with that. Wintertime fishing, you know, kind of winter January. PJ (48m 38s): Oh, winter. Just be patient with yourself. Have fun. That’s my big thing with why fishing in general is to have fun. Don’t get all worked up. You know, some days are better than others. Even being a guide there, I I get goose egged quite a bit. Yeah. But I just use that as a learning thing. You know, if you get a zero, that’s okay. It’s not always about catching the fish that, you know, we get so hung up on that. And I think social media is a huge thing with that. It’s like, oh, we gotta be a poster. Help fish know. It’s like, you know, sometimes you gotta learn how to, and I, I also, I, I just, I try to, every time I go out, I try to learn something. PJ (49m 19s): If that means like sneaking up and looking over the edge and just watching fish. I mean, there’s nothing better that’ll teach you about how fish lie in that. It’s just watching the fish. Bill Harrell used to have this thing as like, when is fishing not fishing and when is not fishing? Fishing. Oh, right. And I tell that to clients all the time. Like, it’s okay to take a break and just watch the water and see what’s going on. Be observant. Dave (49m 48s): Right. Is when it, so the quote was, when is fishing not like fishing and when is not like fishing. Fishing, PJ (49m 55s): Exactly. Dave (49m 56s): Yeah. Right. That’s, that’s PJ (49m 57s): Pretty, and I, I just let people kind of stew on that and think about it. Dave (50m 1s): Yeah. You, you don’t have to say anything. Just say that. Let them think about it for a little bit. PJ (50m 5s): Yeah. You know, I’m not gonna tell like, it, it’s different for everybody. Right. You know, for me it’s just like looking over the edge and watching the fish. It’s getting to the water and not instantly just start casting and hoping for the best. Yeah. You know, it’s taken a a few minutes and just looking and seeing what’s going on, looking at bugs, looking at the front of your grill on your car and seeing what bugs are on there. And it’s looking on the, on the bridges and all the, the spider webs and looking what’s there. Yeah. Dave (50m 40s): Just PJ (50m 41s): Everything, you know. So that’s, it’s a huge thing. Just be observant, you know, for wintertime it’s like, how cool is it to like walk around in the snow and then you see like a rock that’s got a little bit of snow on it and then you can start seeing all these little black stoneflies coming out. Like how cool is that? It’s the middle of winter, it’s cold and you’ve got a ton of bugs out there just walking all over the snow. That’s pretty cool. Dave (51m 8s): That is really cool. Nice. Well, yeah, I guess I think we’ve done a pretty good job today, pj. I just want to ask you a couple more random ones if you have time and we’ll, and we’ll take it out here. Sure. Does that sound good? PJ (51m 18s): Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. I, I talk fishing all the time. Oh good. Dave (51m 22s): Good, good. So one thing we’ve been thinking a lot about, we’re also kind of working with heated core, which is a, like a base layer. It’s, it’s heated, like base layer, you know, battery powered essentially. Oh yeah. To keep you warm. So shout out to heated core today as well. But for that, on that end, how do you stay warm out there? Wintertime? It sounds like you got some good coats and things like that, but what are your tips? Like you’re on the water staying warm. PJ (51m 46s): Yeah, I mean, again, big shout out to all the manufacturers that make really good jackets and stuff. That’s a huge thing. I tell people, make sure you eat a really good breakfast. It’s not just a granola bar. Right. Eat a good breakfast. You gotta fuel the inside. Stay hydrated. And not just drinking beer, we’re talking about actual water and stuff. Although carrying a little flak whiskey doesn’t hurt every now and again. Right. Yeah. But, oh, the other thing is, is just making sure you have like good quality gear. I try not to get over stuffed, you know, like you can put so many so layers on. PJ (52m 27s): Next thing you know your feet are still cold. ’cause when you sweat too much or now you’re cutting off your circulation so you can get away with some really good socks that insulate you well. And then again, I usually go with Gore-Tex, like a Goretex jacket. And then, what is it, the PrimaLoft, there’s so many. VUS makes a great jacket, which is awesome. Sims makes a great jacket for that. And then the other thing I do is I wear nitro gloves in the winter. That helps keep your hands dry. And I also carry a, a small towel with me too, to keep my hands dry. Dave (53m 6s): Right. Keep ’em dry. PJ (53m 7s): Yeah. So that helps. And then those little hand warmers, there’s electric ones now and the, the little chemical ones, those are kind of nice. And then also having a backup pair of mitten or gloves inside your weeders or, or whatever. When your hands start getting cold, you’ve gotta just know when to stop. Exactly. Dave (53m 28s): That’s great. No, those are awesome. All super good tips. And, and one thing I noticed out there is, it was interesting on the, you mentioned the farmers the, the Amish, right. There’s a pretty decent sized Amish community that’s kind of interesting out there. Do you guys, I guess you see that all the time. They’re driving down the roads, you’re driving in your car, and all of a sudden there’ll be a, a horse and buggy, you know, going five miles an hour in front of you. What’s that feel like out there? Do you kinda get used to all that? PJ (53m 52s): Oh, you get really used to it. You know, there’s several of them that live nearby where we’re at, and they stop and talk to you now and again, most of the time they, they’re, you know, going to their, their work and stuff like that, but they always wave. They’re friendly. I give them plenty of a break, you know, if you need to pass them. I, I make sure I try to pass ’em on a straight, so that, and I usually try to slow down. Yeah, Dave (54m 18s): Just slow down. It’s a PJ (54m 18s): Horse and buggy. Dave (54m 19s): Yeah, horse and buggy. Yeah. We had this guy, we were coming to one of those junctions. We were just driving. Yeah. I mean, it was, I can’t remember. We weren’t speeding, we were just driving. But yeah, he was at a stop sign and he, I can’t, I don’t know if he didn’t look or something, but he started to pull out Yeah. In front of us and we were going, I can’t remember how fast we were going, but I mean, you could see the look on his face when he stopped, you know, he is like a ghost. Oh yeah. Like a ghost. But yeah, I would imagine, geez. Are there accidents out there? Do you ever see PJ (54m 42s): Oh yeah. Yeah. There’s plenty of accidents we hear about. It’s never good. And usually they’re on the, on the bad end of it. You know, A big giant vehicle usually does better than a horse and buggy. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. And they’re in the driftless and don’t be in a hurry. You’ll get there. Yeah, Dave (54m 59s): Yeah. You’ll get there. Slow down. PJ (55m 1s): We like to affectionately call it Driftless time. You’re like, you’ll get there. It’s all right. You know, if you’re a little late, it’s okay. Dave (55m 8s): Yeah, definitely. Cool. Well, I, we recently had a listener that I was talking to actually had a phone conversation with somebody and they said they were loving the, at this end, sometimes we ask about music and things like that, like music or podcasts, and they, they were loving that segment. The guy said he does a lot of concerts. So I’ll ask that to you today. Are you more of a music listener or podcast when you’re kinda driving around? Oh, PJ (55m 30s): I definitely listen to more music than podcasts, although we do like to listen to podcasts now. And again, if the wife and I are, are cruising somewhere, we’ll yeah, listen to podcasts and that, but most of the time it’s music for me. Dave (55m 44s): What’s your music? What do you listen to? PJ (55m 46s): Mostly like classic rock. I’m an old guy, so classic rock, that type of stuff. I, I listen to a lot of bluegrass. Oh Dave (55m 54s): Yeah. Do you do any of the concerts? Do you, do you go to any shows or, or music, any of that stuff? PJ (55m 59s): Not really. I mean, now and again, we’ve got a great theater in town that has great music, the Temple Theater there, so we go to stuff like that and that’s a pretty eclectic venue there, so there’s all kinds of music there, so, you know, local stuff. Dave (56m 18s): Perfect. All right, pj well, I think we’ll leave it there for today. It was, it was great, you know, having you on here and chat and meeting you in person there on, on that day. But yeah, I appreciate all your time today and all your, you know, wisdom and knowledge and we’ll definitely be in touch with you moving ahead. PJ (56m 31s): Oh, awesome Dave. I appreciate it. Yeah, it’s always good to talk fishing and help other people gain some knowledge. Definitely. Dave (56m 39s): Hey, give a shout out to, to where they can find you. If somebody wants, if they’re in that area, they want to get a guide trip, where should we send them? PJ (56m 45s): So it’s PJ’s Guide service website is pj guide service.com. I’m also on Orvis website under Endorse Guides, so it’s PJ’s Guide Service in Wisconsin. And my email PJ guides@gmail.com. Okay, Dave (57m 6s): Perfect. We’ll send everybody out your way and definitely keep in touch with you and thanks again for all your time. PJ (57m 11s): Awesome, Dave. Yeah, looking forward to it. Dave (57m 14s): All right. Quick call to action today. If you’re interested in flatten that learning curve, check in with PJ right now, pj guide service.com. Pick his brain. I’m sure even if you don’t get a trip, he’ll help you out if you have questions, if you wanna have more success this year, that’s probably your best shot. Alright, we are gonna get outta here pretty quick. Just wanna give a heads up right around the corner. We’re launching the Steelhead School this year. We got Brian Ska, Jeff Lige together at the Skiena Bay Lodge. This is gonna be a big one, so get ready for that. This is coming soon, early January. We’re gonna be kicking that off and if you’re interested in that trip, you can send me an email, dave@wetlyswing.com. There’s limited spots available, it’s gonna go quick, so I just want to give you heads up on that. Alright, I hope you have a great day and I hope you have a great morning, great afternoon, or a very good evening and I’ll catch you on that next episode. Dave (58m 2s): Talk to you then.