717 | Tim Cammisa’s Top 5 Euro Nymphing Flies from the Best Anglers in the World

euro nymphing flies

Take a quick moment and think about what your top 5 euro nymphing flies are right now. If you could only have five flies to use on the water, what would they be?

Today’s guest picked his top flies straight from some of the best fly anglers around the world. And now, he’s sharing the stories behind them, how to fish them, and a few tips to help you step up your game on the water this year.

Tim Cammisa—fly fishing show celebrity, author, and all-around go-to guy—is back with his new book on Euro nymphing patterns. But it’s not just Euro nymphs. We’re getting into it all!

Have you ever tried fishing a super light nymph in the wind? Want to know the best pheasant tail material and what makes his selection stand out? Tim’s got answers. We’ll also hear about his top picks for pheasant tail material and breaking down five of the best flies in the game. Plus, discover why your dry fly should act like a soggy diaper.

Show Notes with Tim Cammisa on his Top 5 Euro Nymphing Flies. Hit play below! 👇🏻

 

apple podcasts

Find the show:  iTunes | Stitcher | Overcast

Subscribe on Android

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts

Subscribe on Google Podcasts

Subscribe via RSS

(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

Sponsors and Podcast Updates

euro nymphing flies

Tim Cammisa’s New Book

Tim Camisa has a new book about Euro nymph flies, and we’re diving into why he chose this topic. Euro nymphing started as a niche technique in the U.S., with little information available outside Europe.

That changed when anglers like George Daniel and Devin Olsen shared what they knew. Tim was drawn in, fishing with Josh Miller in Pennsylvania and quickly realizing how effective Euro nymphing could be. Even his wife didn’t believe his numbers at first!

Check out our episodes with Devin Olsen and Gilbert Rowley if you want to hear more about Euro nymphing.

euro nymphing flies

Tim’s first book, Fly Tying for Everyone, was a hit, but finding another topic to write about wasn’t easy. His good friend Josh Miller was writing a book on nymphing techniques, and that’s when it clicked for Tim that no one had written a book just about the euro nymphing flies.

Tim’s Top 5 Euro Nymphing Flies

In his book, Tim included 15 main euro nymphing fly patterns with 15 variations. The flies are grouped into different types:

  • Perdigons
  • Nymphs
  • Junk flies
  • Streamers
  • Dry flies

1. Gasolina Perdigon

The Perdigon is a must-have for fishing fast water because it sinks to the strike zone fast. Originally a Spanish fly, its name means “pellet,” which fits its quick descent. Many anglers, especially in competitions, fish perdigons in tiny sizes paired with large beads to help them sink even faster.

Gasolina, created by David Arcay, is a flashy fly with an oil-slick look that changes colors when wet. Some anglers use a special European material for its body, but in the U.S., Hends 233 is the closest match. Gasolina comes in light, medium, and dark shades, giving anglers more options to match conditions.

How to fish the perdigon:

  • It is often paired with heavier flies like mop flies or eggs.
  • It is sometimes used as a dropper fly while the heavier fly drifts along the bottom.
  • Sometimes fished in fast currents where quick-sinking flies are key.

2. Simple Pheasant Tail

https://tacticalflyfisher.com/products/weiss-simple-pheasant-tail-nymph

The Pheasant Tail Nymph is a must-have fly. Frank Sawyer first tied it using just wire and pheasant tail, making it one of the simplest and most effective patterns. Grégory Juglaret, a top French angler, swears by it as his go-to fly.

Tim highlights a variation—the Simple Pheasant Tail by Pat Weiss. It uses only pheasant tail, wire, and red thread. The key is the bleached ginger pheasant tail, which creates a natural light-to-dark effect.

Watch my Pheasant Tail Nymph Tutorial Here:

3. Worm Fly

The San Juan Worm and Squirmy Wormy are some of the most effective flies. But they’ve also stirred debate. Some anglers love them because they catch tons of fish. Others say they make things too easy.

Tim talked to David Highes, the creator of the Squirmy Wormy, and learned that the first one glowed in the dark. Some competitions even banned it because it worked too well. While many pros swear by worm flies, some European anglers refuse to use them.

Lance Egan from Fly Fish Food points out that worms naturally wash into the water during high flows, just like grasshoppers fall in. And he says if matching the hatch is the goal, why not fish a worm when conditions call for it? Tim adss that in the end, fly fishing is all about choosing your own path.

4. Jig Bugger

The Jig Bugger is a simple but effective streamer that works great during high water events. It’s tied on a jig hook with a tungsten bead, a marabou tail, and a flashy body. Many anglers like it because it’s easy to tie and catches fish.

How to Fish It:

  • Dead Drift: Let it float naturally with the current.
  • Jigging: Raise your rod tip slightly every few feet to create movement.
  • Stripping: Let it swing, then strip it back to trigger a chase.
  • Cross-Currents Retrieve: Slowly pull it sideways as it sinks.

Start subtle, then get more aggressive. If nothing bites, try a bigger bead size or change colors. Black and white in sizes 10-12 are solid choices.

5. Lubos Roza’s Rockerka

The fifth must-have fly is a dry fly. You might wonder why a dry fly is in a book about nymphing. Many top anglers, including Pete Erickson and Michael Bradley, use them in dry-dropper setups. A dry fly can help keep a nymph in the right drift.

Lubos Roza’s Rockerka is a unique dry fly that stands out for its simple yet effective design. It’s tied with red thread, a flashy crystal flash or floss tail, and an entire body made of CDC fibers. The CDC is spun into a dubbing loop, creating a dense, fluffy shape. This fly is super buoyant when pretreated and can be fished in multiple ways—dead drift, dry dropper, or even stripped like a streamer.

Take a look at this video of Lubos Roza tying the Rockerka:

Why your dry fly should act like a soggy diaper

Tim compares the perfect dry fly to a soggy diaper—one that barely stays afloat. The moment a fish even nudges the nymph, the dry fly reacts. Some top anglers even set the hook when they see ripples moving away from the fly! This level of precision helps detect subtle takes and land more fish.


 Follow Tim on Instagram @troutandfeather

Subscribe to Tim’s YouTube Channel @TimCammisa

Visit Tim’s Website at TroutandFeather.com 

Top 5 Euro Nymphing Flies Related Podcast Episodes

Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below

Episode Transcript
Dave (2s): Take a quick moment and think about what your top flies are right now. If you could only have five flies to use on the water tomorrow, what would they be? Today’s guest has his top flies, which come from direct communication with some of the best fly anglers from around the world. And today you’re gonna get the backstory on these flies, how to fish them, and some tips and tricks so we can prove your game on the water this year. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Hey, I’m Dave host of the We Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a kid, grew up around a fly shop and have created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts out there. Dave (47s): I’ve also interviewed more of the greatest fly anglers and fly tires than just about anyone in the world. Tim Camisa fly fishing show, celebrity author and a go-to guy for inspiration is here to shed some light on his new book on Euro nymph patterns. And it’s not just Euro nymphs. Today we’re gonna get into it all. You’re gonna find out how to fish a super light nymph in the wind. You’re gonna find out how to select the best pheasant tail material and what that variation looks like for Tim. And also what this CDC Blob fly is all about. We’re gonna find out about this fly. We’ve got, like we said, five of the best in the world. Plus you will find out why you want your dry fly to act like a soggy diaper in the water when fishing at dry dropper. Dave (1m 32s): We’re gonna talk about that as well. We’re gonna talk dry flies and I think we got a couple flies here that are gonna really surprise you. So let Tim take it away and explain the behind the scenes. Here we go. Tim Camisa from trout and feather.com. How’s it going Tim? Tim (1m 49s): Dave, it is wonderful to be back. How’s everything going on your end? It’s Dave (1m 53s): Going good man. It’s always good to talk to you. I think I, I think we’re up to three or four episodes now, which is great. I think the more chat with you, like I always say, you’ve always got a big smile on your face and I love smiles and all that. So how, how’s the year been going for you? Tim (2m 6s): Oh my gosh. I mean, I know we’re, we are recording this in early 2025, so the year is like just off to the start. But I mean, 2024 was a wonderful year, great year for fishing. Lots of stuff, you know, in the fly fishing world. I mean, yes, it was really good. Dave (2m 19s): Yeah, great, great. Well, yeah, as you speak, it’s January now. This episode will probably come out in about a month. It’ll be February, but you’ll be right in the middle of show season, which is, I know you’re always a, a big celebrity, right? I, I love it how bad, you know, sets his dad and it’s always a celebrities. I love it. I mean, you’re a, do you feel out there? Do you feel like a celebrity? Tim (2m 38s): No, I mean I’m still, like, whenever I walk around these shows, and I think you’re referencing like in 2025 I’ll be, you know, headlining and, and a featured presenter at the Fly Fishing Show in Denver, in Lancaster, Pennsylvania over in Edison, New Jersey. And I’ll be headlining the Midwest Fly fishing expo. And Dave, I mean I know I’ve said this so many times, but anytime I’m at these shows I still feel like I’m a little kid. ’cause I used to go to the shows whenever, you know, I was an early teen whenever I was 10, 11 years old. So I seriously will just like be walking past a sign and see my name on the sign and wanna like pinch myself to be like, I remember 30 years ago when I was that kid walking up to that sign, like reading it saying like, whose presentation do I want to go see? Like who’s gonna gimme all the secret flies or how to catch all the fish And now like to see my name on the other side. Tim (3m 22s): It’s just, it definitely is a very humbling site every time I see it. Dave (3m 26s): That is really cool. And I’ve seen out there on just following you on social a little bit, you’ve been connecting with, you know, you got some good stuff out there, some great na you know, and maybe talk about that. Who are some of the guys you’ve been connecting with over the last couple years? Some big names that we should know about? Tim (3m 39s): Yeah, well, I mean, I guess to kind of tell your audience a little bit about where I’ve come from. I mean, I’ve been invested in fly fishing for about 35 years, but a little bit over a decade ago or somewhere in that timeframe, I started a YouTube channel. And it just started with, I originally was doing a lot of fly tying, you know, presentations. I was tying a lot of patterns and then it kind of took off to the point where I was giving a lot of my fly fishing presentations online and, and just kind of, you know, filling in with a lot of niche videos that may relate to European nim finger or dry flies. And then somewhere along the way I realized, like, you know, going back to that little kid in me, I grew up just looking up to some of these legends of fly fishing. I mean, we’re talking about like the lefty craze, the Dave Whitlocks, the Joe Humphreys. Tim (4m 21s): And now here I am in a position, I’m going to these fly fishing shows and I’m fishing around the country and around the world and I’m fishing with these people, like the people that I look up to. And I said to myself like, here I am in this prime opportunity. Sure I can make, you know, YouTube videos and promotes my social media on, you know, little things like dry flies and you know, the best streamer flies and that stuff is wonderful, but why not just dedicate some time to interviewing some of these legends of fly fishing? So I, I come up with a list every year and I say to myself, I plan on interviewing, you know, three to five of these people in the next year. I make it a point to get out there and we’re talking about people like Tom Rosenbauer of Orvis, people like Joe Humphreys recently I interviewed Tom Bolts, he’s a really famous angler from central Pennsylvania that, you know, has been guiding for 50 years. Tim (5m 7s): I mean, the guy is just an absolute legend. He’s developed fly patterns that are just known around the country. So, you know, I’ve, I’m really just trying to take some of that time and really give back to, to fly fishing and just to make sure that we know that these are the legends that came before us. Let’s, let’s kind of, you know, look up to them a little bit longer. Yeah, Dave (5m 25s): That’s great. No, I love that. Well good. Well I think tonight we’re gonna bounce around a little bit here and, and I want to get caught up in things, but you have a new book out and I wanna start there because I think this book is, I just got off, I was just telling the story, recent episode Gilbert Rowley, and I’m not sure if he’s in the book ’cause I haven’t read the whole thing, but we just did episode with Gilbert last year and it was one of our most listened to episodes of the year and you know, and not just because of Euro nipping or comp, but I mean I think that there’s something there, right? I don’t know what it is about the European nipping, the, all that stuff, but you wrote a book basically focusing on the flies. Talk about that, that how does this book come to be? Why do you focus on this and not any of the other topics you could have touched on? Tim (6m 2s): Ooh, that’s a great question. I mean, well let, let’s start with the notion of, you know, European Ming. I mean it, it has definitely, it was one of those topics that when people first started hearing about it, whenever I say people I’m talking about, you know, mainly anglers in the United States, it was kind of this underground thing where you heard about this new style of fishing and you were dredging these Czech nims and they were really heavy, but whenever you would fish them you would just catch fish like you were using a vacuum cleaner. It was one of these deals and it was all kind of secretive because most of the information was coming out of Europe, it was still written in Europe. There weren’t a lot of videos at the time. And it was kind of that unknown where we, we were just kind of grasping at straws and trying to figure out how to put a system together. Then some of the key players, at least from my perspective, people like George Daniel who wrote just an, an enormous, you know, book about this and really just kind of broke the ice and kind of put himself out there as this is a person who’s willing to share information and not just hoard it to himself. Tim (6m 56s): And then, you know, one of my mentors, Devin Olson, he was a member of, still is a member of Fly fishing team, USA and you know, he put out blogs and videos and started a website and just was on podcasts talking about it. And somewhere in between George and Devin, you know, I heard about it, I got invested to it, I started fly fishing more with a friend of mine whose name is Josh Miller from my area of Pennsylvania. And I just went down that rabbit hole and, and just like, you know, it was advertised, you catch a heck of a lot more fish. I mean, I remember I came home from fishing one day and I remember telling my wife like, Hey, I caught this many fish at this spot and this many fish here. And she was looking at me, Dave, and she was like, are you lying to me? You’re lying. Tim (7m 36s): Like, she’s like, is this a fishing story? I’m like, what are you talking about? She’s like, you’re telling me like three times as many fish from last year. And I’m like, Heather, I’m not lying. It’s Euro nymphing. Yeah. So that was kinda like my introduction to the topic, if that makes sense. Dave (7m 50s): Yeah, yeah, I love that. No, and I love you mentioned Josh Moore because we’ve been chatting with him. We’re gonna have him on the podcast soon and he’s a huge reason why I think the youth team and team USA has won. I think last year they swept the whole podium and I feel like, oh my gosh, I’ve heard that he’s just the man. I mean, so Josh, you guys have a lot of history out there, right? Pennsylvania, that east part of the, the country is a mecca for Tim (8m 10s): All this. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, I’m lucky to be out in this area and you know, Josh is a good friend of mine and he worked at a local fly shop And we kind of connected, ’cause we were both, you know, in this Pittsburgh area though, you know, he definitely was starting to make a name for himself in competitions and I was making a name for myself on YouTube and you know, content areas. And so, you know, we had a natural connection to each other. We’re we’re really good friends now, you know, our families hang out. So, you know, I went fishing with Josh, I think we were on our way to a show, maybe the International Fly Tying Symposium. And we stopped on this river and you know, we decided we’re gonna fish for a couple hours on our way out there. And I remember like, I’m leading, I’m going first, you know, up this river and I’m catching some fish here and there. Tim (8m 51s): And Josh is just smoking these fish. We’re talking like one after another and I’m watching Himm thinking, what the heck is he doing? And you know, eventually I say to him, Hey, what fly are you using? And he was using like a Frenchie. I’m like, well I got a Frenchie on too. And I’m like, well, how many split shot? And he’s like, well, I’m not using a split shot. I’m like, All right. And I’m, I make a few more casts and I’m like, alright, gimme your rig. Like, I’m not playing this game. Gimme your rod, you know, for friends, let me cast it. And I made this cast and it was like casting a piece of spaghetti. I mean, this thing just felt like it was all over the place. And you know, that was the beginning of the addiction of Euro nymphing. And you know, I just, I fell in love with it. I just, it was a challenge, you know, there’s a learning curve to it. Like there are in so many things, fly fishing and fly tying, but it just seemed like it wasn’t just about nymphing. Tim (9m 37s): You could also fish dry flies, you could fish streamers. You don’t have to just be fishing for trout or char. I mean, I’ve caught salmon using a Euro nymphing rig. I I’ve caught small mouth bass using a Euro nipping rig. So, you know, there’s lots of different things that you can do with that system. Yeah. Now I know you had asked me about the book and I guess somewhere, you know, after my first book had come out, it was called Fly Time for Everyone, which, you know, just blew me away that I’d been asked to write a book and I was like, I, this was, it was a really fun experience. I enjoyed it. It was an awesome project. And I was like, I think I can write another book, but you know, you gotta find that right topic. And somewhere in there I found out Josh was writing a book on Num Thing, and I’m like, oh, this is like awesome. It’s gonna be a killer book, which it is. Tim (10m 18s): And as he’s writing it, he’s, you know, he contacted me to tie some of the flies for the book. And I said to him, are you focusing on the Fliess? It really just, you know, tips, tactics and techniques. And he’s like, yeah, it’s just the latter. Yeah. And I was like, All right, cool. So I kind of planted this seed and I reached out to my publisher and I was like, Hey, I know where you are right now. You know, in the world of Euro NPH thing, I don’t think anyone’s done a book dedicated to the flies. And I think it’d be a really great thing. So I, you know, I had a call scheduled, Dave, I felt like, you know, I had this all lined up. I called Jay Nichols, I’m like, Hey, here’s my idea. And I was waiting for him to just say, yeah, Tim, you just hit it outta the park. And he was like, Tim, that’s a terrible idea. Like, I could have Devin write this book, right? I could have Josh, I could have Lance, I could have j he’s naming the names. Tim (11m 1s): And I’m like, and then, you know, as he goes on, he’s like, but the problem is, you know, George might use George’s flies and you know, Devin might just talk about Devin’s flies and he’s saying this, and though I’m thinking these are professionals, they’re not, they would do a great job. But as he’s kind of going through this, he starts to say to me, but Tim, what I need is somebody to kind of treat this book almost like they’re an editor where it’s still their book, but they have to go out, they have to interview these people, pull the information and put it all together. And you’re the only person that can do this. And I’m like, oh my gosh. Like we started off this phone call where like, I’m the worst person to write this book, and now I’m the only person to fly fishing that could do it. So he’s like, All right, just get started, you know, I’ll send you some contracts, let me know what you need. Tim (11m 42s): And it was literally just like that. I was like, off and running. So that was kind of the premise to the book where I reach out to some of the top anglers and top fly tires around the world and scheduled interviews and emails and just pick their brains about not just flies, because yeah, it started off as a book about flies, but you can’t talk to like the top five anglers in the world and just expect it to be about flies. I mean, it, it it was leaders and rods and reels and, and just so many other areas of fly fishing that we’ll get into. Yeah, Dave (12m 14s): Exactly. Yeah. So the book is, And we can, we can talk about that a little more in depth, but that’s a cool thing when I think about the Euro NPHs and just the whole thing is that it doesn’t have to be, you don’t even have to be euro nipping, right? You can use these flies for other situations. Is that the case? Do you find that people are using euro NPHs for all sorts of different things with a typical nine foot, you know, rods and all that stuff? Tim (12m 33s): Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think you really hit the nail on the head and you know, one of the people that wrote a little section for the book is Tom Rosenbauer of vus. And I really love to stress Tom’s section because he talks about, he’s like, what is a nymph? You know, I don’t even know what defines a num is just something really skinny that right sinks to the bottom and it, you know, it’s tied in the round, like, you know, and what if I don’t fish it on, you know, my euro infr, does that mean I’m outta the cool kids club? And, and so he did a really nice job of kind of teasing out what is a nu exactly, and do you have to fish it this way or else you’re not fishing it? Right? And, and the answer is no, no, these are, I mean, the flies that I have in this book, I, I really made it a point to say like, these aren’t just, you know, I don’t wanna say Euro nims, they’re not just Euro nims. Tim (13m 16s): They’re not just competition flies. I’m not a competition angler. Like, that’s not my area of expertise. The, the flies that I selected for this book are like, you know, 15 flies and 15 variations, and these are like 30 of the best flies being used today. A lot of them just happen to be used by some of the top anglers today who fish competitions too. Dave (13m 34s): Yeah, that makes sense. And maybe describe that a little bit. What did Tom say or what do you think, what is the definition of a Euro nph? What makes it a Euro nph? Tim (13m 40s): Oh gosh. I mean, I don’t know if there is one definition, and I think I’d get in trouble really trying to right, to narrow it or niche it down. I’ve heard a couple people talk about, let, let’s, let’s go to European Nim thing, because I think years ago it was really difficult for people to define it because you had all these different European teams and they all had their own little style. You had the French teams using long leaders, you had the checks using really heavy flies. And if people said, you know, are you Czech nim fing? Are you French nipping? Are you Spanish nim fing? That all meant something different. And it seems like over the last, you know, especially three or four years, there’s been this race to fish, you know, as light of a leader as possible. And that tends to be what we define as European nymphing now, where it’s just really light lines, light hooks, very sensitive rods, and you can really detect a lot of different strikes. Tim (14m 29s): That’s not the only style of euro nymphing, but that seems to be kind of the direction that everything’s heading that we can kind of cap everything under. So whenever I say to myself, All right, what are the flies that are being used in that situation? I mean, we’re talking about, you know, anglers like Howard Croton, he’s a national champion from the uk, anglers like Lubo Rosa, he’s a champion from the Czech Republic. We have an angler in the United States like Devin Olson. I mean, these are people that I, I interviewed for the book. And these are people who are fishing competitions still to this day. So you have these champions and all these medal winners, and these aren’t people that are gonna sit down and say, All right, I got, you know, three hours to tie some flies. I’m gonna take my time and tie a half a dozen. I mean, they have to be cranking these patterns out. Tim (15m 10s): So to me, you know, we’re looking at a, a pattern that’s gotta be tied in a really short amount of time, use few materials. It’s gonna be something that’s not gonna be so dialed in that it’s gonna be very specific for a hatch or as a certain bug. It’s gonna be something that fish can take as a generalistic style of pattern. The majority of nymphs in the book tend to be tied relatively slender with few appendages, you know, just so they sink a little bit faster. And I guess, you know, when I look at this, these are just general, you know, fish catching patterns. That’s how I’m gonna help to define all this stuff, right? Dave (15m 45s): Yeah, they’re just good patterns. I mean, they might be euro noms, but they’re just all around, you’re gonna find ’em in probably most people’s boxes or, or would you say most of them are pretty, people would know the names of most of these 15 flies? Tim (15m 56s): Yeah, I mean, yes and no. I think there’s a lot of different patterns out there that, that are being used today. And I tried my best to say, All right, if I was gonna really try to look at this as, let’s take a snapshot in time right now, and like this is 2025. Like if we say to ourselves what’s being used right now in 2025, I think I did a pretty good job of selecting those patterns. I also got kind of lucky at the beginning because, you know, I said to myself, I’m gonna be tying, you know, these 15 patterns, and for every 15 pattern there’s also a variation. So I have 15 patterns, 15 variations. So you got 30 patterns that are just given in their entirety in the book. You have like all this, you know, high res macro photography for those main 15, which by the way, they’re not just all nymphs. Tim (16m 38s): I have it broken down into nymphs. I have a section on paragons, I have a section on junk flies, I have a section on streamers, and I have a section on dry flies. So it’s called tying Euro nymphs, but it’s really a well-rounded selection. But then at some point I had asked, I think it was Devin Olson, you know, halfway through our interview, I said to him, Hey, if you could just carry five flies, it doesn’t matter where you’re fishing in the world, let’s just say you’re on a river medium gradient with, you know, trout or char, what are your five go-to patterns going to be? And Devin just, you know, rattled them off. So I just kind of tuck that information away and I added that question to my notes, and I got to the next angler, asked that person that question, got those five flies. And then, you know, by the end of this, I started to realize like, I have 30 confidence lists for 30 of the best anglers around the world. Tim (17m 25s): I better take a look at these lists and see to myself like, is there, you know, some commonality, commonality right? Amongst, you know, from Devin to Lance to Pat Weiss, which by the way, there were very few flies that were on every single list. There was a little bit of overlap, but looking at those lists, it caused me to kind of rethink my own and say, All right, well here is my original 15, I’m cutting these five and I’m gonna add these five in instead. And that’s kind of how my selection process came to be. Dave (17m 50s): Gotcha. That’s interesting because yeah, you, you would think that, yeah, maybe the Frenchie or whatever, the top five you would think, but there was, it sounds like a good mix of flies, like from all these guys. And, and how, how did you go into that? That’s a must be a tough thing too. You mentioned a few names, but there’s more than just 15 people out there that probably could have made the book. Right. How did you end up choosing the, the, you know, these people Tim (18m 10s): And who, Dave (18m 11s): And that was, and who’s mad at you now? Right? Tim (18m 13s): I mean, I, well, no one’s reached out to me saying they’re mad if it, I haven’t seen if anyone’s unfollowed me on social media, right? Yeah. I mean, to select the people I started off with Devin Olson. Yeah, he was the first, just because he and I, you know, we’ve made some videos together for YouTube, you know, we’ve connected at some of the shows And we have a very good relationship. You know, we text, we call, he’s somebody, you know, I’ll be out in the river, you’re an phi, and run into a problem. And I’ll text him, say, Hey, here’s what’s going on. What do you think’s happen? And he’ll tell me, he’s like, oh, here’s what you’re doing nice. And I’m like, how does he know this? Wow, he’s really good. So, you know, I started with Devvin and at the end of that phone call, kind of like you would with the podcast, I said to him, Hey, who else do I need to be talking to? Right? And he might rattle off four names and I, you know, maybe I had three of them written down, but I didn’t have that fourth. Tim (18m 54s): So I added them to the list, or it was somebody I’d never heard of. I think one of the questions I asked somebody was, who’s someone that I’ve never heard of that’s just, you know, out there and is somebody that we need to know for the future. And then somebody else’s name would come up and, you know, then I would just say the obvious, Hey, can you connect me? You know, can you share an email address or, you know, give them a call from me just so to see if they’re even interested in doing it. And I think like every single person I asked for my first round of people, they all said yes. For the second round of people, they all said yes. I think there were only like two or three people that said no. One of them, they were a European angler. I won’t say their name. There’s somebody there that always finishes in the top five. And I just think that they’re just so ultra competitive. Tim (19m 36s): They just thought maybe they would say something that would slip and they would lose their standing. I mean, when you get to the top three or four people, there’s a reason they’re, those names are repeated pretty frequently. Dave (19m 47s): Let on DeMar Lodge give you the Montana fly fishing experience You deserve. The gin clear waters of the Missouri River offer a world-class experience with one of the finest rainbow trout and brown trout fisheries in the world. Whether you’re a seasoned angler or new to the sport, their family of guides will tailor a trip just for you. You can head over to on demark lodge.com to fish one of the great trout streams in the country Since 19 72, 4 wheel campers has been building tough, lightweight campers, designed to fit almost any truck. Whether you’re after something minimal like me with the Project M or looking for a fully equipped camper ready for your next off-grid adventure, four wheel campers has a solution for every outdoor enthusiast. Dave (20m 27s): You can head over to four wheel campers.com right now and use the builder tool to see which topper slide in or flatbed is ideal for you. So let, let’s start there. So tell us if you can, and we’re not gonna talk about all the flies, but can you give us five, maybe out of this book we can talk about, or four or five, something that we could say, you know, these are flies that every one of us right now listening should have these in our box. Tim (20m 49s): Yeah, well listen, I’m opening the book right now. Let me, I have, let’s see, 1, 2, 3. That’s perfect, Dave, because I have five, like, I have a bunch of chapters, but I have five that are on my main headings of flies. Okay. And so I’ll pick one from each of those headings. How about the first one would be, I’m a paragon. Yep. That’s without a doubt. I mean, paragons are really exceptional patterns. Just to give a little background on it, it’s a Spanish fly. I believe Paragon stands for pellet because it sinks like a rock. I mean, they just get to the bottom in a hurry. My original experience with a paragon was, you know, it’s something tied with a, a relatively straight tail, maybe Coke daily on a flashy body, a hotspot behind a bead, maybe a s slotted tungsten bead on a jig hook. Tim (21m 31s): And, you know, it was meant to fish in really fast water when I first started fishing with them. Anytime I would come to a relatively, you know, high gradient section of a river, that would be a fly that I would tie on just to get to the bottom in a hurry, because there’s just nothing sticking out, nothing to slow. Its descent through the water. What I kind of, whenever I, I first said to myself, All right, you know, when am I gonna be using these on a regular basis? I said to myself, and I kind of put myself in this box. It’s only going to be in a section where it’s really, really fast water. ’cause that’s what I knew about them. And, and in fact in my first book, my publisher said to me, Hey, you can use any flies you want in that first book. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’m the, the first book to ever feature the mop fly that was in fly tying for everyone. Tim (22m 12s): ’cause I’m like, I don’t think anyone has a featured, I’ll be the first person whether that’s good or bad. But my publisher did, did say out of every pattern out there, he wanted a perigon in that first book. And I said to myself at first, I wonder why he’s stressing that so much. And, and now I realize why. I mean, nearly every one of these anglers, not all, but nearly every one of them said that a perigon really belongs, you know, easily in, in the top five, almost every list, or for sure a top 10 just because of its ability to get down. What I learned from my new book is that a lot of these anglers are fishing really small paragons. Like I would say to myself, you know, sixteens, eighteens maybe twenties, but most of the anglers that I talked about, again, a lot of these competitive anglers, they were fishing eighteens twenties and 20 twos, really small paragons because they could put a larger bead on a size 22 jig or a Downey mfo. Tim (23m 3s): And that thing just sinks to the bottom in a hurry. I feature a few different paragons and a few different variations. I’d say probably the most interesting one is one that’s called a gasoline and a gasoline. It’s a really cool looking pattern. And I’d heard about it from a fly time perspective because it features this material for the body. And I guess the closest material that we have to it in the United States is called hens 2 33. You can have as a crystal flash or a little tinsel. So this gasoline, it has this crazy color, Dave, it’s, it almost looks like an oil slick. That’s why they call it a gasoline. So whenever it’s wet, it just takes on a bunch of different colors. So it just looks like a lot of stuff. It’s a flashy Pentagon. Tim (23m 43s): You know, I interviewed David rk, he’s the creator of this. He’s from Europe. In fact, he sells what you would consider to be the original gasoline material. And he sells it in multiple shades, which I kind of found interesting because, you know, in in the United States, we mainly just fish hens 2 33, and that’s the gasoline. Yet you talk to David and he’s like, oh, I got a, a, you know, a bunch of different shades of this. So there’s a light version, a medium version and a dark version. But to me, kind of the standing thing with this gasoline is, you know, these people are fishing it in very small sizes, but they’re also pairing this gasoline and they’re pairing these small paragons with larger nips, something like a mop fly, and they’re putting the mop fly on the point they’re putting, you know, this little paragon as a dropper, and they’re just letting that mop or that egg just kind of slither along the bottom and just really slow down that paragon. Tim (24m 31s): So these fish are sink something really small in the water column and just coming up and attacking it. Dave (24m 36s): Wow, that’s awesome. Yeah. And the gasoline is, it’s kind of got a flashy as it have kind of like a floss flashy body. Is that what it is? Tim (24m 43s): Yeah, it’s imagine like a body with just crystal flash. Yeah, that’s really what it is. But it has all these different hus to it. And for these paragons, you cover all them in a, in a UV resin. So they take on this, this sheen anyway, but you know, you have this sheen that’s kind of over this green, and I dunno, blues and browns, there’s all these different shades depending on how you look at it. Now, let’s be honest, if a fish is chasing down a size 20 paragon, are they gonna see all those shades? Like I, I don’t think so, but at least whenever I look at it in my box, it gives me confidence to say, All right, this thing looks pretty cool. I’m, I’m gonna get some fish on it. That’s it. Dave (25m 15s): That is awesome. Yeah. And then the, the, the paragon is more of a, what’s the body material on the paragon? Typically Tim (25m 21s): Paragon, you know, from at least my interviews with these anglers, they were two main body materials that they looked at. One of them, a lot of anglers said, Hey, we want something really flashy. So think about crystal flash or a tinsel. That would be one body material. And then another body material that I feature in the book is using thread. So saying to yourself, All right, I’m gonna use this, you know, light olive color thread, knowing that whenever it gets wet it’s gonna darken a little bit. So, you know, that would kind of be the direction I would point to your listeners if you’re gonna, if you’re gonna tie some paragons, have some flashy ones, and have some more muted or dull ones tied thread body. Dave (25m 56s): Perfect. And when do you, I mean, just from what you’ve learned, when does the flashier, do you kinda use the flashier versus the more dull type flies? When would you use one over the other? Tim (26m 7s): Oh gosh. I’d love to tell you that. Like, if it’s a cloudy day, sometimes like, you know, dark day, dark fly, bright day, bright fly, I definitely at least lean down that setting. But, you know, I, I don’t look at it like that. It’s kind of like one of those things where, you know, first of all, if I’m coming to some fast water, a paragon might be one of my first flies simply because it gets down in a hurry. But I guess to tell another story, Dave, I remember I was fishing with my wife. We were fishing on this beautiful little stream in central Pennsylvania, and we’re out there and we’re on this really slow section, just slow moving water. There was some Cass on the water, and at one point, you know, my son and my daughter were out with us and I was showing my son how to pick apart, you know, a Cais case. And we dug out the larva and I took a picture of it in his hand. Tim (26m 48s): It was this really bright green cas larvae, it was a Gran Cadis. So a little bit later he was telling my wife about it, and I said, oh, why? Let’s show mom the picture. And we showed her the picture and you know, just kind of moved on from that. And about 15 minutes after that, she hooked a really nice brown trout. This was this just big wild brown trout. So, you know, she’s fighting it. She’s been, you know, fly fishing for a number of years. She did a great job with this fish. And she lands it. And you know, as it slides into the net, you know, the first thing I’m thinking is like, what fly did she use? And I look in the fish’s mouth and it’s a paragon. I’m like, well, that was a dumb idea. Like, why would you fish a paragon in slow moving water? And she’s like, well, you know, it had this green body. I saw that green fly. I figured that’d be a good idea. Tim (27m 29s): And I’m like, Heather, you don’t use paragons in slow moving water. And now, like, fast forward to this book, I’m having like an interview with Pat Weiss, this, you know, an incredible angler from Central Pennsylvania, and he’s telling me all about his paragons. And I’m like, so Pat, you just fished these in fast water, right? And he’s like, absolutely not like slow water paragons sleigh. And I’m like, oh my gosh. Like my wife definitely had me beat there. Dave (27m 52s): Nice. That is so good. Yeah. That’s awesome. You got the, and you got the, the kids too, right? You are, you are the kids into, you have two kids, right? Tim (27m 59s): Yeah, yeah. I have a son who just turned nine and my daughter’s four. And listen, all of our vacations, all of our trips are built around fishing. So those, those kids, they have to come, you know, no matter what I mean, they have waiters, rods sometimes. My son, he prefers to throw a spinning rod over a fly rod this year. He really wants to throw a fly rod again. So it, they just go back and forth. We had them steal head fishing a few weeks ago on one of the tributaries of Lake Erie. Oh, cool. And you know, my son landed a couple fish. He would, he loved it. And my daughter, for some reason, she didn’t want to catch one because they were just so big and she was afraid she was gonna get pulled in. But, you know, eventually, you know, I hooked one, handed her the rod and she did a great job with Dave (28m 34s): It. Amazing. That’s so good. Nice. Well this is great. Well, and talk about this a little bit. Let’s just stick with the paragon for a little bit. How is it, you know, in the book, maybe you could break down just overall so people know what to expect. Are you breaking down? Talk about how you break down that book. Do you have kind of some conversations with people that tied this fly? You know, talk about that. How is each chapter broke down? Tim (28m 52s): Oh gosh. I guess, lemme take a step back. So whenever I was writing this book, imagine like, hey, every morning, you know, I’m waking up around five o’clock and I’m writing x amount of words for the book. So I’m creating a skeleton of the book. I had an idea of my sections, I had an idea of the flies, but I’m, I’m like, I, I have to, you know, get some words down on, you know, in my, in my laptop. And then aside from that, I’m scheduling these, you know, one to two hour zoom interviews. I’m sending out emails with questionnaires to these, you know, 30, you know, 30 some anglers and tires. And at some point those two have to mesh. And, you know, once I had the flies finalized and I said, All right, these are the flies. I’m gonna do a step by step of pictures. I decided, you know, how I was gonna do that. Tim (29m 34s): So, you know, macro photography came out for all that. And then the trickiest part of this whole project was saying to myself, I have all these interviews that I like typed up. I probably should have used ai, but you know, I just, I said to myself, I’m just gonna re-listen to every single interview just so I can make sure, you know, I have it written down the right way. Just because, you know, you know, just like with a podcast, it’s one thing whenever you’re in the moment, but it’s another thing when you’re kind of watching as an observer. Yep. So I, I went through and I categorized them. So say for instance, I was talking with Lance Egan about bead colors, which bead color to use on which type of a day. You know, I wanted to be able to say, All right, Lance said you use silver on this day, copper and gold on this day. And I would put those into section under beads. Tim (30m 15s): And then, you know, I would have another section on thread color, and I’d have a section on, you know, pheasant tails. And anytime, you know, somebody said something about a new topic, I would, you know, write that section down in that heading. So it kind of, at the end, the, the final component was saying to myself, alright, how do I integrate all of their quotes with my writing and, and finding, you know, just that, right? I don’t wanna say jigsaw, but that’s really what it was. Because every morning as I’m also writing that skeleton, I’m thinking about the previous interview and about what they said and, and all the other ones. So I was able to still kind of build around all of their thoughts and ideas, but then back it up with their actual quotes throughout. So whenever you look at a section like the gasoline, like let’s just say to ourself, we’re gonna first see a really beautiful picture of that fly. Tim (30m 60s): Something like, I call it one of my mirror shots. So I have a reflection picture of the fly with the recipe. Then there’s going to be a few paragraphs about the gasoline, just to give a little bit of history. There’s gonna be some quotes from the individual that developed that fly or created the fly. There’s gonna be, you know, anywhere from 15 to 20, you know, pictures of it. Each picture is gonna have a description of what’s going on. As you go through the tying procedures. You’re also gonna have a section on something that I might call like fly tying tips. So there’s a section that we’ll talk about, like, here’s something that maybe I did and I really wanna just, you know, just tease that out a little bit and go into more detail as to this fly tying technique for it. Then one of the most important ones is, you know, fishing suggestions. Tim (31m 40s): So I talk about how would you fish this fly? And I, that’s where I pulled in a lot of quotes from those anglers to say, All right, if I’m fishing with a paragon, here’s what I’m gonna do. I mean, for the Paragon, for instance, I mean, you know, one of the best fishing ideas came from Devin Olson for that one. And I remember Devon saying, you know, like, you know, he really values paragons, but it’s tough to fish a paragon on a windy day because they do sink to the bottom in a hurry. But if the wind is blowing on your leader, it can lift that fly right back up. So he’s like, you have to say to yourself, how can you get it down there and keep it down there? And he paired it with a mop fly because he’s like, Hey, those mop flies. You know, they sink like a parachute. They take forever to get to the bottom. But then let’s use that thinking and say, All right, once they’re there, it’s gonna take that much more to lift them up. Tim (32m 23s): Oh, right. So let’s fish a mop, fly on a windy day, then, you know, pair it with a something small like that paragon. And you know, that’s kind of one of his go-to rigs in the wind. So there you go. You know, getting that type of information and then finding its home in the book, that was the tricky part. That’s where it really caused me to, to do a lot of thinking, Dave (32m 40s): Finding like where that, that’s really interesting. I remember when, you know, I asked the John Roc, you know, RID Yeah. You know, and I, he has on the podcast and, and I always ask him about his process in writing books, you know, obviously John Giro, and he said a similar thing. It was like, you don’t want your book to be like your watching your, your uncle’s slideshow from Hawaii vacation, right? Where it’s like, here’s the start, here’s the start, then here’s a fish. It sounds like you, is that part of the beauty of writing books? You kind of find that mix where it’s not about start to end, it’s just you find your own mix. Tim (33m 11s): Yeah, that’s exactly right. I, Dave, I don’t think I’ve told this to anybody. I wrote the introduction to this book three times. I wrote it three separate times, not realizing I had written it those other times. And at the very end, whenever I went to put all my sections together, I’m like, oh my gosh. Like, I wrote my intro three times and it was written three different ways. One of the three I did not like, it may have been my first one. I was like, All right, that one’s trash, but I’m looking at these next two and I’m like, oh my gosh, like, these are both really good. Like I, you know, when you’re kind of taking a step back, I’m like, I did a nice job with these intros and it was like, which 1:00 AM I gonna pick? And that’s kind of one of the struggles of being a writer is that, you know, once you start getting that stuff down and you do have to remove some of that, it’s like, you know, you, you, you’re throwing a piece of you away in a sense. Tim (33m 56s): So no, no, John, you know, he’s definitely at another level from, from any of us. Right. At least from me. Dave (34m 2s): Right, right, right. Well this is good. So we started off with the paragon. Let’s keep this rolling here. What would be a second pattern you’d say if we had to have four or five patterns in our box? Everybody should have these. What’s the number two? Tim (34m 11s): Oh gosh, I think I’ll go with an easy one, and I don’t wanna take the easy way out, but my second section is considered nymphs with dubbing and soft tackle. Oh, nice. So if we say to ourselves, Perigon sink fast, now let’s start building some stuff. So maybe like a, a thorax that’s, that’s a dubbed thorax or something with a little bit of c, DC for the hackle. And I have, I don’t know, I have four or five of like my top flies of all time in that section. So it’s really tricky. But I think the pattern that I’ll kind of point to is going to be a pheasant tail. And the reason I say that is because, you know, out of all those confidence flies, there was really one fly that kind of just has stood the test of time that nearly every angler said, this is one of my go-tos. Tim (34m 51s): In fact, Gregory jut, he’s a French angler, whenever I asked him about his five, he was, he kinda laughed and he’s like, Tim, there’s only one, it’s the pheasant tail, right? Like that’s it. Like this is a top three angler in the world and he’s fishing like one fly the majority of the time. Dave (35m 5s): Wow. One of the oldest, right? Like, but what, you know, the history probably a little about one of the oldest flies that’s out there, right? Tim (35m 10s): Yeah. I mean this, it’s a Frank Sawyer. Yeah, franker creation. It was originally tied with just wire and pheasant tail. I mean, it was a nothing fly. I mean, he developed this, I believe, for chalk streams over in England. So, you know, kind of knowing that, that it has that, that history, it’s a basic fly that could just represent so many different, you know, forms of food for fish. Just knowing that, like it’s out there. Now, I did say to myself, I can’t just tie like the typical pheasant tale because, and I’ll, I’ll point back to something that my publisher told me in my first book. He was like, Tim, I don’t want you to have the parachute atoms in your book. Like it’s been done. It’s in many books, you can find it everywhere. Like there’s no reason to try to recreate the wheel. So I said to myself like, you know, I have to have versions of the SSO tail in this book. Tim (35m 52s): And of course I’m gonna talk about the main version, but can I also just kind of highlight a new one that maybe not everyone knows about? And the pattern that I share is this pattern called the simple pheasant Tail. And this is a pattern that was developed from Pat Weiss, you know, the central Pennsylvania angler. And Pat is somebody that your listeners probably don’t know too much about now if they follow fooling mill at all on social media. Fooling Mills mentions his name quite frequently because they carry a ton of his patterns. He’s just got a bunch of flies to catch fish. He’s one of these competition anglers that, you know, as I like to say about him, if he’s in a room with other comp anglers and he starts talking, everyone gets quiet because they wanna know what he has to say. Tim (36m 32s): He’s just one of those people that he’s gonna catch fish wherever he goes. He’s a hunter, he’s gonna be successful whenever he’s in the woods. He’s just that guy. So there’s a couple flies that he’s kind of really known for, especially in the Pennsylvania area. But the one that, you know, I gravitated to this simple pheasant tail. It’s tied with like one material, it’s just tied with pheasant tail. But the tricky part is it’s a bleached ginger pheasant tail. And it kind of threw me off because, you know, Pat’s a really secretive dude. He’s one of those guys that like, you’ll ask him a question and he won’t lie to you. He just won’t tell you everything. And he kind of gotta put it, put the rest together. So, you know, sure enough, like I was talking to him about this fly and he gave me a little bit, but I felt like there was more. Tim (37m 14s): So I, you know, I was texting him and he gave me a little bit more, and I’m looking at pictures of this fly and I just, it’s something just wasn’t right to me. And it’s because, you know, they’ll find a, a true bleached ginger pheasant tail. It’s tough to do. So for anyone out there who gets this book, and I’m, I’m sure I say this in the book as well, like, I had ordered bleached ginger pheasant tails from fly shops from around the country. I think I ordered like six or seven sets. And I even went to a couple of local fly shops, and I’m the person that when I go, I will remove every single one from the bid and look them over. And it was really tough to find a true one because what you’re looking for, whenever you’re looking at the back of a pheasant tail, a bleached one, you want the tips of it to be relatively light, and it should be darker by the center, darker by that stem. Tim (37m 59s): And the reason that, that pat looks for them, that color, imagine this like you’re tying in the pheasant tail, the tips is the tail. Yeah. And it’s really bleached and it’s lighter by the tail. So as you start winding that forward, it’s gonna give you a relatively lighter abdomen for the fly. But if the center of that pheasant tail, if it’s darker, and as you continue winding it up, it starts to darken as the fly moves forward. So by the time you get to the thorax, it’s a dark thorax kind of like, you know, natural insects out there. So Pat found a way to take one material, a pheasant tail, create something that’s different than everyone else’s pheasant tail, but also find a way to have it replicate all the natural insects out there. And this is a fly that works for cadi, it works for like may flies, like the light cahill like sulfur. Tim (38m 43s): I mean, it’s just a fly that will catch fish in a lot of different situations. So I think he originally called it like the stupid simple pheasant tail. And I think fooling those said, All right, get the word stupid out of, right. We’re just gonna call the simple pheasant tail. Yeah. And it’s stuck. There’s no, no material for the thorax, there’s no dubbing or anything like that. There’s no CDC, it’s just like, I don’t know, pheasant tail wire and red thread. And that’s really it. Dave (39m 7s): It’s pheasant tail. I mean, it’s literally the original even simpler than the original, right? Yeah, the original was pretty simple because it had the, the only difference it had the thorax and the peacock, which is one big thing I always said, I love peacock. Yeah. I feel like peacock is one of those natural materials that’s just amazing. But it just shows you this fly works just as effective it sounds like, without the peacock. And it’s amazing. Do you think, I mean, and of course there are flies that are just floss bodies too. So it, what is it about these flies? What, what would you tell somebody who isn’t a master of the fly or the etymology, the tying, why do these super simple? Is it just about getting down weight? Is that a big part of it? Tim (39m 40s): I don’t know. I don’t wanna say that because I, I think a lot of these anglers, the more I talk to ’em about the notion of nymphing, they’re not dredging the bottom. They’re, they’re not really just bouncing these flies along the bottom. A lot of ’em are fishing them a lot higher up in the water column than, than people like me originally thought. And so knowing that they’re really trying their best to have the fish, you know, take them as they’re in the drift. So it’s not just about dredging the bottom and doing that, you know, with flies like that, I mean, I’d love to tell you a fish looks at a pheasant tail and a pheasant tail fiber has all these es all these little fibers on it that should move and should breathe in the water. But again, I don’t know if the fish can see that Well, when they were, they’re far away. Yeah. To me, i, i, I just wonder, does it look like something buggy? Tim (40m 21s): Does it look like something they see on a regular basis? Or in that flies case, does it look like something they don’t see on a regular basis and they say, Hey, let’s try this out. You know, I, I think, you know, any of us would just be kidding if we think we could figure out exactly why a fish eats. But there is something about that pheasant tail that’s just, is it natural? Is it something that just looks like so many of their, their food sources? I mean, I think you can make an argument that if you have a traditional pheasant tail, you could look at that and say to yourself, that kinda looks like a case for a case cadis. Like they could eat that as a CADs. That’s true. Could eat that as a may fly. Like they could eat that as in a merger. I mean, you know, with some of these pheasant tails, if you add just one or two turns of C, d, C and you take off the bead, that’s like one of my favorite dry flies of all time now. Tim (41m 4s): So, you know, there’s just so many different things you can do with that pattern. It, it just really seemed to attract the fish. Dave (41m 12s): Stay warm stay focused and don’t let the cold dictate. Quitting time with heated cores, advanced base layer technology. Hydro wick fabric wicks away moisture while undetectable. Carbon fiber, heating elements target key areas to keep you dry and warm all day long. I had a troubling experience fishing a New York steelhead stream while in December I was fishing it and my feet, my legs, I was getting cold. I literally felt like things were freezing. I had to step outta the water and I literally had to stop fishing and then I watched somebody else take that steelhead. So never again for me. I’m sticking with heated core, lightweight and unrestricting. You can stay on the water all day with three levels of heat and a rechargeable 7.4 lithium ion battery heated core may just be your ticket to more time on the water this season. Dave (42m 4s): Well, I think we’re, we got a good start here. Let, let’s keep this rolling. Let’s go to number three. What do you, if you had to say number three, everybody should have the fly in, in, in your box. And, and again, we’re not going deep on all of this, but I think it’s a taster. Give people, you know, wet their whistle a little bit. Tim (42m 18s): Ah, cool. Let’s get onto the next section. So the next section, I call this one slow sinkers. And I kind of looked at this as, All right, what are some patterns that take a little bit longer to get to the bottom? We’re talking about flies like the mop. And in this case, I think the one that I’ll probably share, gosh, this is a tricky one. Let’s go with the notion of fishing a worm. Yeah. ’cause I think that was a fly, and I think this will be a good talking point that caused a little bit of a riff in my book. We’ll say that now. Let’s take a step back. Yeah. Whenever I say a worm, I mean, in the book I feature a couple different worm patterns. Dave (42m 51s): Yeah. When you say worm to me, I always think, yeah. First thing I think of a San Juan worm. You know, that’s always like, All right, San Juan worm. Absolutely. Tim (42m 57s): And I have a picture of the original one in my book. ’cause you know what? I’ve been doing this since I was 10, that’s 35 years ago. Like, that was my first one. Yep. David, it’s like, that was the one, it was like, you had to find that right size chail. And you know, I remember like, I think it was Veril and you had, I, I remember burning the ends with the burners. Sometimes I would slide them through a bead. I, you know, that was my go-to fly for so many years. And then when the squirmy worm came out, it kind of exploded onto the fly fishing scene. Right. And I wanted to feature that because there’s just something that’s, I don’t know, the squirmy worm is just one of those flies that it just catches fish for so many different species. So I said to myself, All right, who’s the guy that created the squirmy worm? His name’s David Highes. I’m gonna interview David. Tim (43m 38s): So I reached out, had a great interview with him, which was super cool to be able to say, like, my book features the guy that created and invented the squirmy Warby. So that was like, that was awesome. So I have a whole section on that, which by the way, the first one was Glow in the Dark. You hit it with a UV torch and it glows. Wow. And that was the, the first one that he saw. I think he was in like a, a craft store or a party store with his kids. And he saw that material and he was like, Ooh, that’d make a good fly. And he was in line, and he was about to check out, and he was like, I think I should go back and get this just in case. And he did. And you know, everything’s changed since. But then in the competition world flies, like the squirmy whammy or that fly specifically, it’s gotten banned in a lot of competitions. Oh, Dave (44m 16s): Wow. Tim (44m 17s): So like now you’re, you’re talking about like art. You have a fly that, like people were saying it catches too many fish, which, which is so crazy to even believe that. But I, so for everyone out there like know that there are competitions that you’re not allowed to fish that fly, where they, they literally changed the regulations just so you can’t use a squirmy Warby. Wow. So, which, which should tell everyone if you’re not fishing competitions, it works like, yeah, know that number one. But I also wanted to make sure I was looking at this from a well-rounded perspective, and I’m like, All right, well the squirmy works, but a lot of these anglers aren’t using the squirmy, so what’s their go-to fly now? And so many of them, I, And we we’re wonderful. And the fly they’re using is kind of a, a Chanel version. And there are many different anglers that I talked to. Tim (44m 59s): But now let’s go back to our original San Juan Dave. Like that’s what we’re talking about. Like this micro Chanel stuff that’s even finer than the ones that we used. I mean, these were super fine down to, I can’t even remember how, how small, I think the, the Sue Shail that I used for one of the flies. It’s a, it’s a semper fly material. And it was one millimeter. I mean, it just, it’s just a really tiny diameter of stuff. And some of the anglers that I talked to about the worms were people like Noah Shapiro, and Noah is a member of the youth team. Because I said to myself, I don’t want just like all the adults, why don’t I find some members of the youth team out there and talk to them as well? So I did. So I interviewed a number of the youth team members and, and I remember Noah’s interview specifically because, you know, he really loved talking about the worm. Tim (45m 41s): And he, you know, he kept telling me about all these fish. And I was like, well, Noah, tell me how do you tie this worm? And he got a little sheepish and he’s like, Tim, it’s literally like a hook a bead, and then you jam the material right against the hook. Yeah. And you tie in like 10 strands of thread and then that’s it. That’s the whole fly. And I’m like, no, there’s gotta be like something to prevent it from fouling. He’s like, no, Tim, like, that’s literally it. This is like 10 terms of thread, maybe a little super glue. Wow. And you’re done. And I was like, oh my gosh. Which, you know, other anglers had other versions of that fly that are also shared in the worm section. I think I have multiple flies. That’s one of the few that has a couple different patterns that I share. But then, you know, after having that interview, I remember talking to a few other anglers and I realized that a lot of anglers, especially some of the European anglers, they are really opposed to worm fishing and to them, because it’s almost too easy. Tim (46m 33s): Oh, wow. And a lot of them said, you know, something along the lines of if you, you know, you could have a really poor fishing technique and still catch fish on a worm. And they said that, and, and you know, as the writer of this book now, I, I’m, I’m, you know, I’m rolling into a dilemma like, alright, I have like 15 people that say like, this is one of their ride or die flies. And I have 15 other anglers that are saying like, if you use this, I’ll never talk to you again for the rest of your life. And I’m like, oh shoot. Like what do I do here? And you know, as the person writing this book, I thought, listen, again, this is a snapshot of today. Like this is right now. Like, I want this to be as accurate as possible. I used everyone’s quotes. So for the people that said like, Hey, this is not for me. Tim (47m 13s): There’s a section on, you know, for them that’s talking about why they’re opposed to the worm. And I think it’s important to, to have that out there to say like, this is why this person who happens to be a top 10 angler doesn’t use worms and doesn’t think you should either. And, and here’s another section on, you know, people like, I dunno, Cody Bergdorf from the United States team, or public tro Pinos from Spain. And about saying like, here’s how you select the right material when you do tie a worm. And so I wanted to have kind of both perspectives in there. Dave (47m 40s): Nice. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And what is the, I guess on the, an, you mentioned one of ’em, it’s too easy, but what would be another objection to using the worm? Is it, other than it’s too, is there any other good objections that came up? Tim (47m 52s): I think there was a section on there. I talked a little bit about an interview whenever I talked with Lance Egan. And I wouldn’t say that he did not object to the worm. He really loves using worms. I shouldn’t say really loves, I I, I don’t wanna put that word in his mouth. Yeah, Dave (48m 5s): But he’s not against him. No, Tim (48m 6s): He’s not against them for sure. But he works in a fly shop called Fly Fish food. You know, you, I’m sure you know that, you know, you know, you know our boys out there. Yep. And Lance is, he was, he was telling me during our, during our interview that, you know, he gets a lot of customers that come in, they’re opposed to using worms. And he said to them, why? And they’re like, well, we prefer to match the hatch. Right. And he’s like, well, let’s talk about this. Like, we’re not talking about like a garden worm, we’re talking about an analy. And during high water events, you know, the water rushes through, you know, through the sides of the bank and it washes lys into the water. So you’re telling me like, you wanna match the hatch. Like, wouldn’t you want to after a high water event, fish these worms to match the hatch? Dave (48m 46s): Exactly. How’s that different than fishing a grasshopper? Right. Tim (48m 49s): It’s not. No, it’s not. So I, which, you know, my favorite quote about fly fishing is like, the wonderful thing about fly fishing and tying is we each get to choose our own path. Mm. Yeah. Like that’s the beauty of this. And you know, and, and again, like when I had that angler that said, don’t use it, you know, it’s gonna ruin your technique versus the other angler that says, you know, use this, you can catch striped bass, you can catch Atlantic salmon, you can catch all these fish on, on squirmy whammies. You have to pick your own path and say to yourself, what are you trying to get out of this? Yeah. Dave (49m 17s): Perfect. No, and just to clarify the third pattern you’re going with here, is it the squirmy or is it the San Juan style? Tim (49m 24s): Gosh, let’s just say a worm style. We’ll just say a worm. Why Dave (49m 26s): Just go worm. That’ll make it better. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, Tim (49m 29s): We’ll say worms. Why? Dave (49m 30s): I like that we have a worm in here. This is so good. Love it. So let, let Tim (49m 33s): Dirty Dave. It is Dave (49m 34s): Getting bad. It’s good. So let’s go number four. What do you have here? You got two more left to throw to this list. What would you go through your fourth? Alright, Tim (49m 40s): Well we’ll start to kind of slide a little bit away from NIMS and junk flies. I had a section on streamers as well because, you know, at at one point during these interviews, the notion of high water events definitely came up and, you know, during high water events, a lot of the anglers would use either darker flies or larger flies. That seemed to be one of the, the main things. But another fly that people really gravitate to is one that, you know, I’m sure you and I both love the wooly bugger and there’s just something about a, you know, a pattern that you look at that just you say to yourself, you know, what does this represent? It could be, I dunno, caterpillar, A bait fish could be a, a ide stone fall. I mean, it could be so many different things and they catch fish. Tim (50m 21s): And you know, as I was working on this book, you know, there’s kind of this buzz going in the fly fishing world about jig streamers. So we have these streamers that are tied on jig hooks, and they’re kind of like the poor man’s wooly bugger. That’s what I’ll call them. So a jig bugger. And that’s, it’s, it’s as simple as it sounds. Imagine you have a, a jig hook around a, a three to a four millimeter slotted tungsten bead, you know, bu tail, some type of flashy body, like a chail body, and that’s it. No hackle, no, you know, CDC or saddle hackle or anything like that. Just a really, really simple tie. That would be the next fly that I share because, you know, whenever it got down to this, these anglers all really do fish streamers, but they pick their spots when they’re fishing them. Tim (51m 8s): And they also wanna have some streamers that, you know, they can tie in a really short amount of time. So this book does feature, I think, four streamers, but out of the four that jig bugger is just the simplest one to tie and it catches fish. I mean, if someone’s out there listening and saying, All right, what should I tie? What colors, what sizes? It’s like, go the size, you know, 10 or 12, do some, you know, all whites, all blacks, and you are good to go. Dave (51m 30s): Good to go. And how do you typically, is there just a ton of ways to fish that? Or what’s your most common way you’re fishing that jig? Bugger. Tim (51m 35s): Ooh, I’m so glad you asked that because, you know, with these streamers, I wanna see if I can turn to the section on that as I’m, I’m going, I’m not gonna read the section Sure. To to everybody out there. But what I realized about these fishing suggestions is that, you know, first of all, you have to figure out what type of water are you fishing in. And say to yourself, how heavy of a bead do I want? Because if are you gonna fish it, you know, dead drift, that would be like the main thing to start. Like maybe we’re just gonna drift this through a dead drift and just see what happens. And we have to make sure we don’t have too heavy of a bead. Because if you’re on really skinny water, you might be fishing something like a three or a three and a half millimeter versus if you get to really big water, you might bounce it up to like a five and a half millimeter tungsten bead to really get down to hurry. Tim (52m 16s): So we’re gonna say, All right, what kind of bead size are we gonna select? Once we get to that bead size, we gotta say to ourselves, All right, let’s kind of go through the motion of streamers. Like, let’s start with we’re just gonna do our dead drift. Then the next time through maybe we’re gonna jig it. And by jig it, I mean we’re just gonna raise our raw tip, you know, a couple centimeters as it’s going down every three feet or every two and a half feet, just to give it a little bit of jigging motion, maybe to have a fish chase and eat. Maybe we’re gonna strip it back once it swings around and see if we have a fish that chases there. There’s another technique that people were talking about. They would cast it out and as it would start to go down, they would just do a gentle retrieve across the currents. So they would do that as well. Tim (52m 56s): And I kind of looked at this as it seemed like every fishing technique that I mentioned was a little bit more intrusive than the previous one. So it’s kind of like you start, you say to yourself, which of these techniques is going to disturb the least amount of fish till the end where maybe you’re just ripping this fly across the current to really just draw a strike. Gotcha. Dave (53m 16s): Yeah, it makes sense. So it’s, yeah, it’s diverse and, and you could, you said it, so I love how you started that questions they asked. First of all, when you’re thinking about it, like how are you gonna fish? Is that how you go into all your flies when you’re creating something? Is you’re always thinking like, okay, how am I gonna fish this? Exactly. How’s it gonna, whether I’m gonna be deep water, fast water, you know, kind of wind all that stuff. How, how do you, do you, what do you factor in when you’re tying these flies? It sounds like you’re thinking of a lot of things. Tim (53m 39s): Yeah, I mean, for, for sure. And I guess that would be a major takeaway that I had for a lot of these anglers. And I think for a lot of fly tires who say to themselves, like, I’m, I’m trying to tie a fly to hit not just this one situation, but a number of situations. You know, a lot of these comp anglers, they’re very intentional and precise in what they do, and they’re very thoughtful and constantly questioning why, you know, why should I make the tail this size? And let’s talk about this fly specifically this jig bugger, a lot of anglers looked at this fly and, and a lot of them fished this fly though. This is not a fly that’s just like a, oh, here’s a fly that Tim’s throwing out there. Like, this is a fly that, that they’re fishing. But one of the struggles that I had was selecting the one that I thought would benefit the readers the most. Tim (54m 21s): And the issue that I had was with the length of the tail, because a lot of the anglers said to themselves like, alright, number one, you wanna find quality maroo, which it’s not as easy to find quality maroo today as it was 10 or 15 years ago. So, you know, I really reached, and I found a lot of different maroos, I bought a ton of different maroos. I think there was one that was called, like, it was a fulling mill, maybe extra select that was probably the best maroo that I could find that that really made a nice tail, that really had nice fluffy fibers the whole way out to the tips. Had a bunch of bar mules, like that was the best maroo that I, that I could find at least everyone had access to. You could talk to a few independent people, but that would be the one that, that, you know, people could buy. Tim (55m 1s): But then it was like, All right, I got this baraboo, it’s awesome. I’m gonna get a, a giant pump of it and really just push it all together. So, you know, I have a, a ton of maroo and therefore a ton of movement, but how long do I make the tail? Yeah. And you talked to some anglers and they wanted that tail as long as possible. They wanted it super long because the longer the tail, the more movement, the more fish were attracted. Dave (55m 22s): Oh, wow. You mean like how long, like twice the body length or how long? Tim (55m 25s): Oh, more than that. We’re talking like four times the length. Oh, wow. I mean, oh really crazy Dave. Yeah, like to the point where people are holding up flies as we’re having these interviews on their cameras. And I’m like, there’s no way I would fish that. They’re like, you have no idea Tim. Like, but that’s, they’re like, that’s how you get the movement. Like if you’re not fishing, something articulated, how else can you get movement in a fly like that again, like they’re saying to themselves, how can I do this? You know, why am I gonna catch more fish than you? And it’s because of that movement. But then I had a couple anglers as well who kind of argued back and they’re like, yeah, you get all this movement, but whenever the fish eat you get a lot of, you know, short strikes or they’re eating that tail and you’re not hooking them. And from a competitive angler perspective, you know, they have to hook that fish, they have to land that fish. Tim (56m 7s): And I believe the fly still has to be in their mouth whenever they come over to score it. So they had to get those fish in the net. Yeah. So just looking at just like one pattern, there was a lot of thought that goes into this just when you’re, you’re saying, All right, well we’re gonna tie in the tail of a wooly butter. ’cause you don’t have to tie this jig bugger, but just, just if you’re like, I’m gonna tie the tail on my woolly bugger, like, yeah, do you just follow a recipe that says tie it, you know, one times the shank, but then we’re using jig hooks and some of these are like extra short shanks. So if I say like three times the shank, that still may not be that long compared to a traditional woolly bugger. Like, there, there are so many factors at play with some of these patterns. Dave (56m 43s): Wow, this is cool. Yeah, I think this, the cool thing about this is that people, yeah, I can grab your book and they know that these patterns are, have already been vetted, you know? Yeah. But at the same time, we should all be thinking like, hey, okay, I got this pattern on, you know what, just because Pat Weiss tied this pattern, or whoever it was, doesn’t mean I can’t tweak it a little bit. Right. Along along the way is that, do you think that’s good advice that we can even make it customize it to our own, our own fit along the way? Tim (57m 5s): Oh, without a doubt. And I think what I did with the streamers, I actually have, you know, a couple of these streamers and like, that was the most basic one. And the next streamer kind of builds upon that flying. And it’s another pattern that you kind of add a couple more materials just to kind of do what you’re saying, like customize it, maybe add a little bit more movement in behind the bead. So I said to myself, you know, I wanna make this book and have patterns that are easy to tie, but also some intermediates that people may not know so much about yet. So I tried my best to kind of build those throughout. Gotcha. Dave (57m 33s): Okay. Well let’s, let’s, you want to add one more here before we get outta here? A fifth fly of the people gonna have their must have five in their box for everybody listening. Yes. Tim (57m 42s): All right, let’s do that. Let’s get to the fifth one. I’ll, I’ll kind of follow the order that I’m setting as precedent and, and I’ll go through my sections. Yeah. The last section’s on dry flies. And it, you know, first if you’re like, wait, this is a book on nims, like where do dry flies fit in so many of these anglers, so many of the, the, the top anglers we’re talking about people like Pete Erickson, Michael Bradley, I mean, I interviewed some individuals who are on the, the, the adult, like the ex what do, what do they call Dave (58m 5s): That? Yeah, I always get confused too, because it’s not like the golf, it’s the opposite of the golf. Yeah. Tim (58m 9s): It’s kinda like, it is kinda like the masters though. I think it might be the masters. Dave (58m 12s): I think it’s the ma I think the seniors or the younger, yeah, the masters or the older guys. Tim (58m 16s): Yeah. I think that’s how it goes. And I could probably look up in the bio section, ’cause I have a bio in all these, but you know, I, I interviewed like Pete Erickson, he, you know, he was a, a gold medalist for the United States and we’ll call it the masters competition. So, and, and especially Josh Miller, I’ll kind of lean on Josh for this one. A lot of these anglers are fishing dry droppers. And at first, you know, I kind of said to them, All right, tell me a little bit about this, because you know, most people, if you say, All right, I fish a dry dropper, it’s like, well, what does that mean? It’s like, well, I’m fishing the big chubby Chernobyl with the hairs ear underneath, and whenever that chubby goes down, I set the hook. And it’s like the precision involved in these dry droppers is just, you know, it just seems light years ahead of where my thinking would’ve been because we’re talking about fishing a size, I don’t know, 16 or size 14 dryly with maybe a, you know, a nymph that has a two millimeter tungsten bead and they’re fishing this on a liter, a micro thin liter, maybe the entire is five x, and it goes down to a tippet that could be six x or seven x. Tim (59m 14s): So just saying to yourself, how are they even throwing these things 30 feet, 40 feet, sometimes 50 feet, right? Like, there’s just a lot that goes into that. So they couldn’t pick dry flies that ha that were super bushy that are going to have a lot of air resistance. So that’s like, right now, you just gotta eliminate a lot of flies that you would think, oh, this is something that I would use as a dry fly to support my nymph. But you also wanna make sure you’re selecting a dry fly where you also have a chance to catch a fish if they’re eating on top. Like in some cases, some of the dry flies are just kind of sacrificial. They’re out there to maybe keep a nymph in a certain drift or in a certain run. Because if you’re trying to nymph and you have a straight line to that fly, there’s going to be some sagging your system and it’s gonna kind of pull your fly across those currents. Tim (59m 57s): So at times, you know, these anglers are selecting dry flies in a dry dropper, which means a dry fly may be coming off a dropper tag and then a nymph on the point. And they want that because then they know that dry fly will kind of help to keep that nymph in a certain line. But you know, at times, yeah, sure it’s a sacrificial dry fly, but at other times they’re like, All right, we’re fishing for maybe brown trout. We know brown trout love to eat dryly. So we also wanna make sure we’re throwing a dryly that has a chance of getting eaten that the fish are gonna say yes to. But then probably my, the biggest takeaway I have before I share a fly is that whenever you’re selecting that dry fly to pair with the nymph, you don’t just go with any dry fly, you go with one that’s just going to suspend the nm. Tim (1h 0m 37s): I mean, I’m talking about Dave like, yeah, imagine like somebody in like a soggy diaper floating down the river, where if you would just like touch their toe, they would go underwater. And that’s the dry fly you wanna select for this. Because the moment anything happens, it could be a fish that’s, you know, six inches long or 16 inches long, even if they just touch that little nph for just a 10th of a second. You want your dry fly to react. And this is the level these anglers were on. Geez. You know, I’m thinking to myself, All right, it’s a dry drop, but you’re looking for that dry fly to go down. It wasn’t always going down. Sometimes these anglers are talking about they saw their dry fly turn 90 degrees during the drift. Oh wow. They set the hook At one point somebody said like, they’re like, Tim, imagine like whenever you pull down on a, like a volleyball or a beach ball in the water, how like the water ripples away. Tim (1h 1m 21s): Oh yeah. And they’re like, sometimes my dry fly would be floating down and I would see like ripples moving away from it. And I set the hook and sure enough, there was a fish there, like the fly wouldn’t even show anything. They were just, they just saw ripples moving away from it. And that indicated an E. So, you know, we’re talking like, some of these guys are next level, but it’s not that they’re next level, it’s just, you know, they have the ability to think at that level. But remember, like, they’re also sharing these levels with us. So for all, all of you listeners out there, if they’re thinking, oh my gosh, this sounds so advanced. It’s not like, remember my background? I’m an elementary school teacher, I teach sixth graders and I wrote the book so you can read this. I’m not saying, you know, sixth graders going to understand everything I wrote, but like, I’m putting all these concepts and these ideas in this book for all of us. Tim (1h 2m 4s): Like, this is for us to get better as anglers. Not just to get a peek inside this world, but, you know, I wanna be in that world. I think many of us could be fishing at this style, at this pace, at this level. We just have to know what the level is. Like. I think for so many of us, it’s like We don’t even know what, what we don’t know. And now I think this gives us a peek inside that world. Dave (1h 2m 23s): Yeah, it does. It, it, it pulls back the curtain a little bit, right? From these Yeah. Top of the game people who have really, and they’re fished. I mean, especially these competition, I mean, they, these guys are fishing in all sorts of streams all around the world. So there’s a good argument to say, these guys are kind of the best, right? Because they’ve fished Oh, sure. In every, every stream. So it makes sense. But no, this is great. So we got, and, and so your dry fly, so let’s go back to that. And I love this soggy diaper, right? Basically what you’re saying is like that analogy, you don’t wanna have some fluffy giant dry fly that takes a ton of power to pull down. You wanna really, the the subtlest little thing, the smallest. And that’s why maybe a lot of these dry flies too, you see some of these things are kind of almost in the surface film, right? What, what would you call those dry flies that are more down in, almost in the surface? Tim (1h 3m 5s): Well, I mean, it depends on the style of the fly. I mean, you could make an argument that if it’s in the film, it could be more of an merger, which could be an insect that’s, you know, making its emergence from a nymph or from a larva into an, an adult. So it could be representative of that. In many cases, these flies, they just happen to be low riders. I mean, it’s, it’s nothing more than that. They’re just, it’s, it’s a fly that’s just kind of being pulled down into the film a little bit. So I wouldn’t overthink exactly where it’s sitting there. Okay. Then again, maybe you should, you know, Dave, you’re, you’re thinking on another level now. I love Dave (1h 3m 34s): That you can, yeah. I, I’ve taken off to the next level. So, and then what would do you have and then the fly there, what would be the dry Tim (1h 3m 39s): Fly? Yeah, let’s go with somebody. Let’s go with Lubo Rosa Lubo is one of three people i, i I feature from the Czech Republic. One of the individuals I interviewed is Franta Hanock, he’s the owner of Hanuk Competition. F is a good friend of mine, I think, you know, like I, you know, I fly fishing in Iceland quite frequently. Oh yeah. And I host trips there, and Franta came on my trip this summer to, to fish for Atlantic salmon and trophy brown trout. We had a great time. And you know, I interviewed Fran about his hooks because the Hornet competition hooks are, you know, they tend to be known as the kind of like the Ferraris of, of the Flyting world for hooks. So I, you know, I interviewed him, got his confidence flies for this. And one of the, the, the really, I don’t wanna say an up and comer fly tire, ’cause he’s an incredible tire. Tim (1h 4m 21s): His name’s John. I’m, I’m that butcher’s last name, but it’s like Vitm or Whitman with a W And you know, I have him, he did a little section on fly tying for me, shared his confidence flies, and, and, and sent in a bunch of images to use. He was wonderful. And then the third person from the check is somebody whose name is Lubo Rosa, and Lubo is a world champion. He’s won the, I believe the gold medal. Just a phenomenal angler. And he developed this fly, and I’m not, I don’t wanna say this is necessarily his, but it was kind of revealed to me in this book that Lubo wrote, and it’s called Fly Fishing World. And this is a book that, you know, it’s tough to get your hands on the United States. In fact, I wanna say Franta sent me a copy of it, and I’m going through this book, and I remember seeing this fly that just was like, I, I don’t know even how to describe it. Tim (1h 5m 5s): Imagine like a blob of CDC. That’s what it looked like. And it kind of drew my attention. But I kind of like, I looked at it, but I kind of forgot about it. One of those deals where I’m just, you know, just, it was in my brain, but I wasn’t quite sure about it yet. And it was in a section on lakes. So I said to myself, All right, you know, maybe this is like, you know, the blob or the fab or you know, the booby or one of those flies. So, you know, fast forward now into this book, and I’m interviewing some of these anglers and I’m interviewing people like that. Noah Shapiro from the youth team, Ollie Bassett from New Zealand. I get to people like, oh gosh, Pete Erickson. I get to somebody, another person whose name is David Sch Chomsky, and all of them start talking about this fly, this Work care cup pattern. Tim (1h 5m 46s): I’m like, alright. I heard it once and I wrote it down and, and somebody didn’t know the name, but I wrote kind of this description of it. And then, you know, I get to Pete and, and David, they’re like, oh, you know, Lubo Roses Kuka. And I’m like, what the heck is the Kuka? And then I kind of put all the pieces together. I’m like, oh, it’s this fly. I like run to my library. I find my book and I see the fly and I’m like, this is the fly. So I immediately, you know, contact Lubo. So I’m like, All right, tell me about this fly. I need to know about, about this. I think this is going to be the one. And imagine this fly’s tied with like red thread. You have a tail of a handful of crystal flash fibers sticking out. Something like a flashy tail. Some people use floss and they change the color, maybe orange or pink or purple tails. Tim (1h 6m 30s): And then you have nothing but c, d, C for the entire body. Oh wow. But it’s not just like you’re tying it in. You’re, you’re taking your CDC, you’re putting it into a c, DC block, then you’re eventually cutting the fibers away from their stems, and then you put the fibers into a dubbing loop and you spin it. So you’re kind of making a c, DC hackle without the stems, and you get as many of them as possible. I mean, you really wanna find super long c, d, c if you can. Some of these will take upwards of 12 to 15 CDC fibers to make one fly. So this is a fly, like if you, if you snag it in a tree, you wanna climb the tree to get this one down, you get it. And I mean, you get to the end and, and you have this fly and it just is like this blob of C, DC and the fibers are going all over the place. Tim (1h 7m 13s): And I’m saying to them, All right, so I got this fly tide, like how do I fish this? And it’s like, there are so many different ways. I mean, most of them said they wanted it really, really dry. So, you know, whenever I tie my dry flies, as soon as they come off of vice, I put them in some type of a pretreatment. The brand that I kind of prefer is called high and dry. They’re actually just are releasing this pretreatment right now for fly tires where you put the fly in it, you let it soak for, you know, X amount of hours. I tend to let mine overnight. You dab it away with a paper towel, then they float like a cork for a while. So you wanna keep this super dry, keep it dried off, put it in a desiccant while you’re fishing it, you obviously can fish it, you know, dead drift. You could fish it dry dropper, so you’re fishing a nim underneath it. Tim (1h 7m 55s): But other things that I noticed with this fly, like Lubo was telling me, like he would cast it and he would strip it almost like a streamer on the surface. And he would see fish that would chase it, and they get really mad at the fly. But he would know, like when they started chasing it and say, All right, now I know it started chasing it right there by that rock. That’s where there’s a fish. I’m gonna give that fish a minute and then just make a cast and let it dead drift over it and that fish is going eat. And sure enough, it would. So, you know, I found like there were, there were again, like different fishing techniques to entice fish to eat this fly. Dave (1h 8m 25s): Amazing. Yeah. Rose’s rocka. I love the name. The name is awesome too. Rocka, this is so good. Nice, Tim. Well I think we’ve nailed this one. I think five killer flies. I love the five flies we’ve chosen. And obviously these are just five flies that are amazing. But your book is gonna go into more detail. Anything else you wanna shed on light on before we get outta here? I know I, I wanna talk Iceland, maybe we’ll have to talk about that again on the next one. But anything for you coming up other than the show season? You wanna give a shout out before we get outta here? Tim (1h 8m 54s): Sure, sure. I mean, number one, yeah. For, for anyone listening, I hope, you know, I, I get to connect with many of you at the fishing shows. I mean, you know, again, I have a pretty tight schedule because my day job is as an elementary school teacher, so I don’t get too many days off from my principal or superintendent to travel around the country talking fly fishing. But you know, without a doubt, like that’s kind of number one is that that will be kind of my winner. And then I tend to take off the spring and I, I prefer to fish with my family as much as possible. This summer, I have a number of like super fun trips coming up. I’ll be going to Iceland. I’m hosting a couple trips to Iceland, looking forward to ’em. I think one is already sold out, one has some openings. I’ll be going back to Alaska. I’ve been adding Alaska into kind of my, my hosted trips just because Alaska’s so much fun. Tim (1h 9m 37s): Yeah. And then, you know, I’m kind of dabbling with a couple more locations. I was invited to another European country, so I might have a chance to fish out there and maybe go out west in the United States. You know, we tend to fish for striped bass in the summertime and also go to the outer bank. So it’s just, you know, we tend to build the summer just around like fishing destinations and different species and, and hosting some trips to get out with, you know, anglers as well. Dave (1h 9m 58s): That’s perfect. And what, on the Iceland trips, so you guys, did you have some Atlantic salmon action when you’re up there? Tim (1h 10m 3s): Oh my gosh, we can have a whole podcast on that. Yeah, I mean, Atlantic salmon is, you know, it’s, it’s something that’s newer for me. I remember, you know, growing up and seeing those beautiful salmon flies and I was like, that, that’s not for me. Like that’s, I don’t need to catch Atlantic salmon. There’s, it’s just a fish. Even though Lee Wolf considered them like, you know, one of the greatest game fish of all time, I’m like, eh, you know, whatever. And you know, so I, I heard that Iceland was kind of known for them and you know, just, you know, for your listeners, I’ve been fishing in Iceland for a number of years. I, I, you know, I tend to go there two or three times a season to fish. Love it. You know, I’ve been hosting trips there because, you know, if if somebody’s gonna fish in Wyoming, I don’t think they need to go to Wyoming with me. I think they could figure it out. Yeah. But when you’re going to a place like Iceland, you know, the water’s private. Tim (1h 10m 46s): So you, you know, if you get there and you’re trying to book the day you get there, you know, more than likely they might tell you the river’s really good, but it’s probably not like the good spots are already, they’ve been reserved for a year already. So, you know, I heard about this one river in northern Iceland, the rist, and you know, I kind of heard that it was a little less of a, you know, a nuisance for casting. So you could get away with fishing a single hand rod and eight weight. And, you know, I was like, All right, that’s cool. Like, I, I don’t wanna be bringing people that, that have to bring a spay rod for Atlantic salmon, but I was like, All right, so you don’t have to cast as far but keep going. And they’re like, well, the beauty is there’s a lot of Atlantic salmon and I was able to book the peak week. So whenever I say a lot, like, you know, you fish two sessions a day, so you would fish a morning session and an evening session, and the expectation is that you’re gonna hook a fish every session you go out. Tim (1h 11m 31s): So, you know, I split the trip into, you know, half of the trip is targeting Atlantic salmon, then the other half of the time we’re targeting trophy brown trout. So we tend to fish around six sessions for Atlantic salmon. And I think this year I landed six or seven Atlantic salmon. Wow. Like nearly one every session. And every angler that came on my trip this summer and summer 2024 landed multiple Atlantic salmon, which is like unheard of. Like, you know, for some destinations you go there, Dave, and you like fish the whole weekend you had a bump and you’re like, oh, that bump was incredible. Right? I can’t wait till I come back next year. And it’s like every time you go out, you get a bump in, in, in, you know, on this river in Iceland. So that’s amazing for any of the people out there that are either who are into Atlantic salmon fishing and you know, wanna have a little bit more experience with it, I would say check out Iceland, but also know, like you have these trophy brown trout in your back pocket. Tim (1h 12m 21s): Like the first time I fished this river up there, I, my first fish was a 20 inch brown trout. And I remember, like, I went to get my camera out and the guy is like, what are you doing Tim? I’m like, I’m taking a picture. And he like, laughs. He’s like, but this is a small one. He’s like, why do you want a picture? And, and I, I thought he was just joking around and nope, he wasn’t like, that was one of the smallest fish of the week on that river. So it’s just, it’s one of those places where you go and, you know, not every day is like, like that where you’re catching, you know, 24 inch brown trout, but you’re fishing a river where every day you have an opportunity to catch multiple, you know, you know, mid 20 brown trouts. Dave (1h 12m 55s): That’s so good. Nice. Well, we’ll, we’ll put some links in the show notes to your website and if people wanna follow up with you on Yeah, definitely that trip availability. It sounds like you do have some openings there. That’s awesome. And I’d love to follow up with you more on all this. But yeah, Tim, I appreciate you coming back on today and shed some light on your new book and giving some nuggets here on some flies. Really appreciate that And we’ll definitely look forward to keeping in touch with you as we go. Tim (1h 13m 17s): All right, well thanks David. As I love to say at the end of these podcasts with you, especially, you are doing a ton of work for the fly fishing community and, and I had, I don’t think anyone has any idea like what you’re doing behind the scenes. So thanks for all the time and you know, thanks for all this content you’re giving all of us. Dave (1h 13m 33s): All right, quick CTA for you, your call to action today is to check in with Tim and let him know you heard this podcast and you want to get that book. I’ve got it right here in my hand right now. As always, it’s a great book. It’s got some great photos, great history, always love the history, the tips and tricks. He’s got a little bit of it all going here and we’re gonna be doing some more stuff with Tim this year. So stay tuned and check in on that. If you haven’t already, check in with us on YouTube, wetly swing.com/youtube. We’re gonna be posting some more video content as we go. This might be some podcast episodes and it might be some shorter stuff, but it’ll be a good way to follow up. And we’re also gonna be posting some from Tim and our guests. Dave (1h 14m 13s): What we’re gonna be doing is following up here and we’re gonna be having some video content along with this podcast. So 2025. If it’s 2025, oh, I’m sure it’s either 2025 or later, you’re gonna be seeing more of that out there. So please follow that, click that subscribe button, that would be amazing. And before we get out here, just wanna give you a heads up Argentina, golden Rado, if you’re interested in going down there, we’re trying to figure out how many people wanna do this trip. And if you can send me an email, Dave, at we fly swing.com, I’ll let you know on availability and what we have going there. We’ve got a big trip planned, so let me know if you’re interested and we’ll go take it from there. All right, we’ve got a lot to do tonight. Tonight. It’s getting late. It’s not super late yet, but if it’s late in the night where you are, I’d love to hear from you. Dave (1h 14m 57s): If you are in the southeast, are you interested in streamers? We’ve got some stuff coming here. Let me know. We’ve got a new sneak peek on you, a new podcast series coming up here this year that you’re gonna hear about and it’s gonna be focused on streamers. And so if you’re interested in that, let me know. This is gonna be pretty huge for us. I’m excited to share later this year, but I’m giving you a little sneak peek just because you’ve lasted all the way to the very end of this episode. Sneak peek. We got it coming here. And I’d love to hear what you think would be your favorite streamer content to share on this episode, on this podcast, anytime. All right. I’m gonna leave it at that for the night. We’re almost outta time here, so I hope you have a great evening. Dave (1h 15m 37s): Hope you have a great morning or a fantastic afternoon wherever you are in the world. And I appreciate you for staying in all the way till the very end. We’ll talk to you soon.

 

Top 5 Euro Nymphing Flies Conclusion

If you enjoyed this episode, check in with Tim and let him know you’re interested in his book—it’s packed with great photos, history, and expert tips. We’ve got more coming with Tim this year, so stay tuned! Also, don’t forget to follow us on YouTube for more video content, including podcast episodes and exclusive clips from our guests.

716 | Protecting Alaska’s Salmon: Insights from Tim Bristol of SalmonState

salmonstate

In this episode, we’re joined by Tim Bristol, the Executive Director of SalmonState, to discuss the urgent challenges and exciting successes in protecting Alaska’s iconic salmon populations. With nearly three decades of experience in conservation, Tim offers valuable insights into the complexities of salmon recovery, from commercial fisheries to the influence of Indigenous communities. We dive into the surprising story behind Alaska’s sockeye returns, the role of climate change, and how local efforts are making a difference.

If you’re passionate about salmon and sustainable conservation, this episode is for you! Tune in to learn what you can do to help ensure a future for these incredible fish.


Show Notes with Tim Bristol on SalmonState. Hit play below! 👇🏻

apple podcasts

Find the show:  iTunes | Stitcher | Overcast

Subscribe on Android

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts

Subscribe on Google Podcasts

Subscribe via RSS

(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

Sponsors and Podcast Updates

 

salmonstate

Episode Chapters with Tim Bristol on SalmonState

3:49 – Tim, who has been involved in conservation for 30 years, shares his journey into working with SalmonState, an organization dedicated to preserving Alaska’s status as “the salmon state.”

6:11 – We discuss the significance of salmon in Alaska as an indicator of ecosystem health. Tim highlights the vastness of the region, spanning from Ketchikan to the North Slope, and the importance of the Tongass National Forest, the largest national forest in the U.S., as a key salmon habitat.

salmonstate
“Did you know: the Tongass National Forest has some of the densest concentrations of brown bears in the world — as on Admiralty Island, where the average is one brown bear per square mile. Tongass photos by Colin Arisman” (Photo via: https://www.facebook.com/SalmonStateAK)

12:37 – Tim discusses the current state of Chinook salmon in Alaska. He contrasts their decline with the resurgence of sockeye salmon, noting that while sockeye populations have flourished, Chinook salmon are facing severe challenges. These include restrictions on fishing in areas like the Kenai River and the Yukon River, where harvests have been completely banned for years. Factors contributing to this decline include food scarcity due to shifting ocean conditions and predation by marine mammals, such as killer whales, which are consuming millions of Chinooks annually.

21:55 – Tim outlines several key projects and initiatives his team is focusing on for the upcoming year. These include engaging with the Trump administration to push Canada to address issues around transboundary rivers, advocating for responsible forest management that prioritizes salmon, and pushing for legislative protections to preserve water quality and safeguard salmon habitats. Additionally, reducing bycatch from industrial trawlers remains a major priority.

salmonstate
Photo via: https://salmonstate.org/bycatch

27:38 – Tim one emerging issue which is hatchery fish production, with concerns that hatchery fish may compete with wild salmon for resources, particularly food. There’s also the question of where these hatchery fish go after being released, as some may stray into wild systems, potentially disrupting those ecosystems.

29:25 – He highlights various ways listeners can get involved, such as following their organization’s updates on social media and signing up for the weekly news roundup. Tim emphasizes the importance of supporting sustainable fishing by purchasing wild Alaska sockeye salmon. He also encourages visiting Alaska to support local economies and to be mindful of where to spend money.

31:57 – Tim discusses several ongoing issues related to salmon conservation. One key topic is the West Susitna River, the fourth largest salmon producer in Alaska, which is threatened by a proposed industrial access road. This road would be used to access a gold mine, with public funds supporting the project. The region is known for its massive smelt (hooligan) run, which is important to the local ecosystem. The road construction has sparked controversy, with concerns from sport fishing guides, local residents, and conservation groups like the Wild Salmon Center, who worry about the impact on the area’s pristine fishing environment.

Tim also explains the role of the Alaska Industrial Development and Export Authority (AIDEA), a state agency that funds large projects, which is involved in financing this road.

salmonstate
Photo via: https://westsuwild.org/take-action

36:17 – I mention Tim’s work on their website, an article entitled “My Turn”. This piece was written in reaction to accusations that their organization is comprised of outsiders aiming to disrupt Alaska’s development. Tim explains that half of their 13-member team, including himself, have deep roots in Alaska, with some being Alaska Native. They have backgrounds in commercial and sport fishing, illustrating their connection to the state.

37:22 – Tim mentions that their organization hosts weekly updates and a series called “Salmon Stories,” profiling individuals with strong ties to salmon. These profiles include sport fishing guides, commercial fishermen, and Alaska Native elders. Although they’ve considered starting a podcast, they currently focus on video interviews and transcriptions shared through their “Salmon Stories.”

salmonstate
Photo via: https://salmonstate.org/salmon-stories/sydney-akagi

39:59 – Tim highlights the robust conservation community in Alaska, particularly focusing on groups involved with salmon conservation and the intersection with fishing. Key organizations mentioned include the Susitna River Coalition and the Wild Salmon Center, which has a strong presence in Alaska under the leadership of Emily Anderson.

41:07 – Despite concerns about fish populations, Tim believes that wild-caught sockeye and coho are good choices for consumers, though he advises vigilance in ensuring that fish is responsibly sourced.

47:01 – Tim highlights how Alaska Native communities have long, uninterrupted histories in the region and emphasizes the importance of working with them.

salmonstate
Photo via: https://salmonstate.org/salmon-stories/mary-deacon

Over the past few decades, Tim notes, tribal governments have reemerged as key players in conservation, especially in protecting and restoring salmon habitats. They are now at the center of conservation discussions, and Tim believes that their involvement has significantly improved conservation efforts. Indigenous communities also offer a different perspective on timeframes, focusing on long-term sustainability, which is crucial for successful conservation.

52:43 – We talk about the unique aspects of Juneau, Alaska. Tim describes it as a self-contained town with a population of 30,000, accessible only by plane or ferry. Despite its size, it has various amenities, including a hospital, symphony, ice rink, and ski area.


You can find SalmonState on Instagram @salmonstateak.

Facebook @SalmonStateAK

Visit their website at SalmonState.org.

SalmonState


Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below




Conclusion with Tim Bristol on SalmonState

Tim Bristol shared invaluable insights into the pressing challenges and victories in Alaska’s salmon conservation efforts. From the impact of climate change to the crucial role Indigenous communities play, there’s no shortage of issues affecting the future of these iconic fish. But the good news is, we all can make a difference. Whether it’s supporting sustainable practices or getting involved with organizations like SalmonState, there’s a lot we can do to help. So, if you’re inspired by Tim’s work and want to contribute to salmon recovery, visit salmonstate.org to learn how you can get involved.

In the Bucket #14 | Wilderness Steelhead Fishing Adventures with Tim Arsenault and Matt Bentley

Today, we head to British Columbia with Tim Arsenault and Matt Bentley, two hardcore steelhead anglers who know these waters inside and out. We’ll dive into spay casting techniques, winter steelhead fishing strategies, and how to maximize your time on the water. You’ll hear about casting efficiency, the best fly lines for big rivers, and why jet boats can be the key to reaching untouched fish. Plus, Tim breaks down what it takes to win the Spey-O-Rama Championship, and Matt shares insights from years of guiding on BC’s legendary rivers. Let’s get into it!


Show Notes with Tim and Matt. Hit play below! 👇🏻

apple podcasts

Find the show:  iTunes | Stitcher | Overcast

Subscribe on Android

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts

Subscribe on Google Podcasts

Subscribe via RSS

(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

Sponsors and Podcast Updates

 

Matt Bentley

Tim Arsenault


Follow them on Instagram 👇🏻

Matt 👉🏻@bentleys_fishing_adventures

Tim 👉🏻@bridge_116.2

Check out their website at 👇🏻

BridgeOutfitting.com

BentleysFishingAdventures.ca


Related Episodes

In The Bucket #7 | April Vokey and Tim Arsenault on Anchored Outdoors and the 2024 Spey-O-Rama Casting Champion

Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below



714 | Tight Line Nymphing for Steelhead with Jeff Parks – Calmwaters Fly Fishing, The New Fly Fisher 

Jeff Parks, Ontario fly guide and New Fly Fisher host, will break down tight line nymphing for steelhead. We’ll discuss his setup and how he guides the fly to fish. Plus, he’ll share his four most important tips for tight line nymphing for steelhead.

You’ll learn how to find fish in holding water and his views on fishing pressure. He actually likes pressure and will explain why his techniques work better with more people. Let’s get into it with Jeff Parks from Calmwaters Fly Fishing.

Show Notes with Jeff Parks on Tight Line Nymphing for Steelhead. Hit play below! 👇🏻

 

 

apple podcasts

Find the show:  iTunes | Stitcher | Overcast

Subscribe on Android

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts

Subscribe on Google Podcasts

Subscribe via RSS

(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

Sponsors and Podcast Updates

 

tight line nymphing

Episode Chapters with Jeff Parks on Tight Line Nymphing for Steelhead

When Jeff was 18, he found an old fly rod at his family’s cottage on Puslinch Lake. He had no clue how it worked, but he tossed it off the dock anyway, and a big largemouth bass crushed his fly. And just like that, he was hooked. From there, he taught himself through books and trial and error.

Years later, after a frustrating trip with a Colorado guide who wouldn’t stop talking about himself, Jeff realized he could do a better job. That experience pushed him to start his own guiding business.

Jeff focused his business on the corporate world, pitching fly fishing as a unique alternative to golf outings. Companies loved it because their clients learned something new instead of just another “forgettable” round of golf.

The New Fly Fisher

Jeff’s journey with The New Fly Fisher started about five years ago. Mark Melynk contacted him about doing a show on Calmwaters Fly Fishing. He teamed up with Bill Spicer to film an episode on Small River Euro Nymphing.

After the show, Jeff connected with Colin and did some technical work with the team. He remembers Colin fondly as an amazing person. Check out our episode with Colin.

Tight Line Nymphing

Jeff uses a setup tailored for steelhead and fast-moving rivers for tight line nymphing. Here’s the breakdown of the gear he uses:

  1. Rod – Jeff prefers using a 9-foot, 7-weight rod for tight line nymphing, like the TFO Axiom II-X. While many people go for longer rods, Jeff finds that a shorter rod helps bring fish in faster, especially in faster rivers.

    With steelhead and big fish, you need some serious pulling power, and the extra muscle in the butt section of his rod makes a big difference. Jeff says it’s similar to fishing for smallmouth bass. Sometimes, even an 8-foot rod is easier to work with.
  2. Fly Line – The fly line is buried, and Jeff uses 12-pound Maxima Chameleon for about 30 to 34 feet, helping to get the fly line out of the way.
  3. Cider Tippet – Jeff uses 4 to 5 feet of cider tippet, with a 0X size, typically in 10-pound test.
  4. Tippet – Jeff finishes with about 2.5 feet of tippet, which he uses in 3X, 4X, or even 6-pound tests, depending on the situation.
  5. Split Shot – While some Euro nymphers avoid split shots, Jeff uses it to get the fly down quickly to steelhead. He says steelheads are focused on moving upstream and often aren’t looking for bugs. Jeff uses a split shot to force-feed the fish to get the fly in their zone.
Tight Line Nymphing

How Do You Catch Steelhead in Fast Water?

Jeff enjoys fishing in fast, shallow water, especially after other anglers have disturbed the fish. He explains that when steelheads get spooked out of a pool, they often head upriver into faster water.

He teaches his customers to analyze the water and look for places where fish might stop, like a pocket or a small channel. Most of the time, the depth is around 3 feet. Jeff advises staying in one spot for about 15 to 20 minutes.

Top Flies for Tight Line Nymphing

Jeff shares his go-to nymph flies for steelhead tight-line nymphing. He likes using a few different colors and styles. Here’s what works for him:

  1. A purple thread-wrapped size 14 caddis curved hook with a purple bead head and maybe a pink collar.
  2. A green caddis nymph.
  3. Larvae patterns with a purple head.
  4. Sometimes, he’ll go for a gunmetal head to avoid any shine that could spook the fish.
Tight Line Nymphing

How to Fish Shallow Water Runs

Jeff gets pretty close to the fish when fishing in shallow water, like a three-foot run. He’ll stand about 5 to 6 feet from a boulder and start working the water above it.

Jeff’s main tip is to keep your line straight up and down because if the line isn’t straight, your fly won’t get to the bottom. He tells his students to think of the line like a hot wire cutting through butter. He also leads with the rod tip, pulling the fly slightly faster to keep it in the right spot.

Tight Line Nymphing vs. Trout Fishing

Tight line nymphing for steelhead is a bit different from trout fishing. Jeff uses larger gear and often adds split shots to get the fly down deeper in the water. With brown trout, the water’s usually smaller, and they tend to look up for bugs, so you don’t need as much weight.

The key to success is reading the water and finding boulders, as they are perfect spots for fish to hide. Jeff also recommends not slowing the fly down too much. Instead, use a downward mend to make the fly rip through the current, which can trigger even a lazy steelhead to bite.

Top 4 Tips for Tight Line Nymphing for Steelhead

  1. Read the water
  2. Get eight to nine out of 10 perfect drifts
  3. Set the hook on everything
  4. Add more split shots if you’re not hitting the bottom

Follow Jeff on Instagram 👉🏻 @calmwatersflyfishing

Connect with him on Facebook 👉🏻 Calmwaters Fly Fishing

Visit their website at CalmwatersFlyFishing.ca

 

Related Podcast Episodes

Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below

Episode Transcript
Dave (2s): What do you think is the most effective way to hook fish on a fly? Is it knowing the water? Is it getting down to the fish, or is it something else? Today’s guest is a steelhead guide in the Ontario area, and today you’re gonna find out how he targets big fish in small rivers and how this will help you have more success this year on the water. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Hey, this is Dave host of the Wet Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid. I grew up around a little fly shop and have created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts in this country. Dave (42s): I’ve also interviewed more of the greatest fly anglers and guides than just about anyone out there. Jeff Parks, Ontario Fly Guide and New Fly Fisher host is gonna take us into Southern Ontario and the Great Lakes. With the focus on Georgian Bay, you’re gonna find out how to find fish in holding water and what he thinks about pressure. He actually likes pressure. He is gonna talk about why with his techniques actually more people is better. And then we’re gonna talk about how he does his tackle and how he leads the fly to a fish. Plus you will get his four most important tips on tight lining for steelhead. All right, let’s get into it. Here we go. Jeff Parks from Calm Waters fly fishing ca. Dave (1m 26s): How you doing, Jeff? Jeff (1m 28s): Hey buddy. I’m good. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me on. It’s fun to be talking fly fishing all the time. Yeah, Dave (1m 35s): Yeah, yeah. This is gonna be great. We’re kind of, we’ve been hitting on your neck of the woods, the Ontario area recently we had your daughter on Alex. In an episode we’ll put a link to that episode or in the show notes and, but it’s been pretty cool because you guys have a lot of great resources up there. Obviously steelhead is a big species that you guys focus on. And today we’re gonna be talking, I think, Ming, today. We’re gonna dig into that and also talk a little about the new Fly Fisher, which you’re involved with. But before we get there, maybe take us back, I think Alex might have touched on this, but how did you get into fly fishing in the, you know, what’s your first memory and then, then we’ll jump into the new fly fisher. Jeff (2m 8s): Oh, it’s funny. I live on a lake, or we actually cottage on the lake. So I was probably about 18, I think it was just before university and you know, living on this lake called this funny little name called Pus Lake, about maybe about an hour outside of Toronto. And in the shed there was this rod. I asked my dad, I said, you know, ’cause we always had spinning Rod. And I said, well, what’s this? He said, and he, he looked at me like I was an idiot. He said, well, it’s a fly rod. And I went, oh well, does it work? And then he looked at me, he says, I dunno. And so I took it out to the dock and it had this big bushy thing on it. Unbeknownst to me at the time, it was a big cataly. Jeff (2m 50s): Oh yeah. And so I tossed it out, tried to get it out there, and I was trying to get it to sink. And as I was trying to get it to sink, it was obviously making a lot of commotion. And this huge, I shouldn’t say huge, but it was about a two and a half pound large mouth hits it. And as just because I was making commotion. And from that day I was hooked. Really? Yeah. It was pretty funny. And, and that was a long time ago. I mean, I’m, I’m 65, so that’s probably, well If you, If you do the math, that’s a long time ago. So there was no, there, you know, the inter, there wasn’t any internet, that kind of stuff. So I was just reading books and just trying to figure it out. And that’s how I got into it for fly fishing. So, and then just on a quick note, we were in Vail, Colorado and we, my wife likes to ski and I like to fish. Jeff (3m 37s): So this is about 25 years ago. And I took a guide and there, and you know, normally I’ve taken a few guides there, but, and normally they’re just, all the guys in Colorado are awesome, was on the Eagle River. And this fellow that I had, this one particular year was just, I dunno, he talked about himself too much. It was all about him. He was gonna have Tiger Woods on the Oh, right. He was the only guy that would, you know, would let Tiger Woods would go with and he made me uncomfortable. Yeah. And we, I came back for Apre Ski with Kelly after going out with that guy, well, 25 years ago, and said, you know what? I can do a better job than that. I’m gonna start a, a guiding company. Jeff (4m 19s): And so her being an accountant said to me, he says, well, okay, it sounds good, but you’re gonna have to monetize it. So I went to the dictionary to look up the word monetize. Yeah. And went, oh. So that’s how I got basically into a lot of the corporate stuff. So I, I, my guiding business, there was a lot of, you know, mom and, you know, of father and sons, that kind of a thing. But it was really where I made the money on my, in my business was in the corporate world and getting 10 to 12 people out and hauling people up from outside of Toronto and doing that kind of a stuff. Dave (4m 55s): Gotcha. So when you first got into guiding your kinda, your target customer was like CEOs and kind of business, that sort of thing, and then you’d bring in like a group of, for like an outing sort of thing, like break work? Jeff (5m 5s): Yeah, yeah. My, yeah, my pitch was basically, you know, If you guys are taking your customers out golfing, you know, try something different and let us teach you how to fly fish. And you know, and they all looked at me and said, well, we don’t know how to fly fish. And I said, well, I know that’s the point. Let us teach you and your customers, let’s give them an experience because you know, every, your competitors are all taking these people golfing. Golfing. Yeah. So everything kind of sort of melts into one. And no one could remember who took them to this certain golf course, blah, blah, blah. But If you take someone out, teach ’em how to fly fish, they won’t forget that. And it just, it basically took off. The financial companies went great. Jeff (5m 45s): The automotive companies were awesome. Really? Yeah, yeah. ’cause they were always taking people to, you know, to hockey games, you know, to baseball games out for dinner. And, and it worked out great. So that was my sort of key to success with the, with the guiding. And I always tell young guides who are starting their own company, I said, you’ll kill yourself just doing, you know, ones and twos and stuff like that. You know, get the corporate business and you’ll make some cash. Dave (6m 13s): Right, right. And are you still doing a lot of the corporate stuff? Jeff (6m 17s): Yeah, well, a little bit. Obviously Covid screwed that up. Yeah. Everybody’s now starting to come back into it. So we’re starting to get, you know, ramping that back up, which is kind of nice. Last year, you know, before Covid we, I was trying to do at least 40 to 50 corporate days a year. And that was, that was pretty easy to do. And then, you know, the, the other a hundred and whatever, 150 days or like, I would try to get a 200 days on the river, so the other 150 were just, you know, your regular drift boat days or walking weight or teaching that kind of a thing. So. Dave (6m 51s): Okay. So, and the corporate stuff you would bring out, say a group of 10 people, would that be kind of like a, a clinic or how would that look on the water? Yeah, Jeff (6m 59s): Yeah. It was, it was perfect. You know, we’d get, we’d meet them on the river for eight 30 and we would obviously, we, we don’t do any dry land training. To me that never made sense when it came to casting and such. We’d always get everybody up in waiters and we’d start in the river right away and, you know, ’cause you got the current and it’s pulling on the fly line and you really have to, it’s a real different experience than just trying to teach somebody to cast on the, in a field and then moved, then moved to the water. So we always started in the water and really it to be about a four hour day. And pretty much after that four hour day, everybody’s laughing and giggling and then they’d head off someplace for lunch and chicken wings and beers and chat about the day. Jeff (7m 46s): And I can’t remember any day that wasn’t a success with these corporate guys. Dave (7m 51s): Yep. Right. Wow, that’s cool. And are these corporate, was this mostly like Toronto, like local? How were you finding the companies? Yeah, Jeff (7m 57s): It was, it was basic sales. ’cause I was always in sales and, and such. But yeah, I would just, I’d just call people up. I’d, I’ll especially, you know, If you hone into one sector, like the financial sector, which worked out great, then you can always say, well, you know, such and such has been using us, which is a, you know, competitor of theirs. And they had such a great time and as soon as they heard that Right, okay, Dave (8m 21s): There you go. Jeff (8m 22s): I better hop on this. So, you know, you tend to almost get one type of business that really, especially with the automotive guys. Dave (8m 30s): Oh yeah. It’s almost like the fear of missing out a little bit. Right. Like these guys did it kinda, yeah. Jeff (8m 34s): Yeah. Because it’s, they’re all, you know, buying for the same customer, especially a lot of them are. Oh, right. And yeah, so anyway, so that, yeah, that worked out well. So it, it was, we did a lot of 75% of my business for guiding was seemed to be teaching, which I Dave (8m 51s): Love. Yeah. Teaching. Right. As opposed to just your standard guide drip where you take a couple people out for the day and you try to get ’em into some fish a little bit different. Well, Jeff (8m 59s): E exactly. But even in that, if you’re taking out a couple people, you know, you always, you always look at some of this like, because there’s a lot of conferences coming into Toronto and such, and so people would be coming in from California or South Africa or whatever, and you meet ’em on the river. So you just take a look at, to sort of see how, like, I think, I think my daughter Alex was talking about this when you had the podcast with her. I’m a golfer. Oh yeah. So I always assess people on their handicap in fly fishing. So I’d take a look at ’em and say, okay, I see them cast. I’m thinking, okay, they’re probably about a 15 pretty good, but how am I gonna teach them to become a little bit better at fly fishing and lower their handicap of fly fishing? Jeff (9m 39s): And so, because you know, as you’re guiding some days the fish just don’t wanna cooperate. But If you can help them with, as you’re doing that, have a good time and but just help them with, help ’em to become a better fly angler. That’s still a great day. Dave (9m 57s): It is. Yeah. Yeah. That’s sweet. Well, we’re gonna talk today, I think we’re gonna talk about Steelhead specifically and all that. But I want to hear before we jump into that, just on New Fly Fisher, we’ve been doing a series of episodes with people that were affiliated. You know, Colin passed away, you know, earlier this year, and I’m just Yeah. Working around trying to touch base with everybody because I wanna just share more of that and celebrate kind of what he did. But yeah. How did the new Fly Fisher, was this one of those things where Colin, you know, tracked you down? Or how’d this come to be? Jeff (10m 26s): Yeah, no, it was, it was, it was about five years ago maybe, I think. And actually it was Mark, mark Malick that, or that reached out and said, you know, would you like to do a show? Like, not as a hostess show, but would you, we’d like to do a show on Calm Waters Fly Fishing. And I went, oh cool. So Bill Spicer, who was the face of the New Fly Fisher for years and years, he was the, he was the host and we did a show called Small River Hero name thing. Oh, nice. And that was on the Sine River, which is just north of Toronto, Northwest of Toronto. And it’s an amazing river. It’s got steelhead farther down below Musky, farther down below an absolute humongous bass. Jeff (11m 12s): But If you go farther up river, it’s an incredible wild brown trout fishery. And I’ve had some really good success, obviously tossing lots of streamers. I’m a streamer junkie from, from the old days. But I also found that the Euro nipping, or the tight line nipping, If you want to call it, is so, so effective there. And these browns can be just huge up there. So Bill and I, we had a great show and that’s how I first got to know the New Fly Fisher. And then I got to know Colin, who was just an amazing fellow. Yeah. And after about two years, I, I did a little bit of work with them for giving them some technical information. Jeff (11m 52s): And then they said, would you like to host? And a little bit nervous on the hosting. Yeah. When I first started, got it up to, I think a place called Elk Island Lodge, which is up in Manitoba. And it was a brook trout and pike, but it was a place called God’s River. And that was the first place I went to. And it’s like being on Niagara Falls, like the, the water just either below Niagara Falls or above where the rapids are just huge. So I was just trying to stand, keep a float on the boat. But that was my first, that was my first trip. First Dave (12m 22s): Trip. Okay. And and was that small river euro ing, was that focused on trout or steelhead or kind of everything? No, Jeff (12m 28s): It was just more on brown trout, brown Dave (12m 30s): Trout. So, Jeff (12m 31s): Okay. Yeah, that was on, that’s all that’s up on that, that one end. And that’s how I got to know, that’s how I got to know the guys on, on all that. And, and I was just up in Labrador actually, this, the, the show called Crooks Lake Lodge is coming out on Saturday. And that’s up in Labrador, which is above Newfoundland and out in the eastern provinces there. And Labrador is absolutely amazing. I I, yeah, I I’m so ecstatic to have been able to get up that way. So was Dave (13m 1s): That for, was that for Trout? Jeff (13m 2s): Yeah, it was for Big Brookies. Big, big Brook tr and these, these brook trout were anywhere from seven to nine pounds. Wow. And it was just, it was phenomen, it was tough fishing. ’cause they didn’t have any snow melt, no ice pack there, just so you know, there wasn’t any precipitation in the winter. So they’re obviously, so the water was low, the water was warm. So we were really, we were really working hard for those guys. And then, then, then last year I also went to, did some Atlantic salmon fishing for Pratt Falls Salmon Lodge. And that was amazing too. So, Dave (13m 33s): Yeah. Okay. And, and then, and you also do some steelhead fishing, it sounds like that nipping, right? Jeff (13m 39s): Yeah. Yeah. Nim Fing is, you know, I started out mostly swinging for steelhead and our rivers are double, you know, they lend well to double hand rods and stuff, spay rods. But I do a single hand spay rod here, and I love that. So I do a lot. But then I started getting into some of the smaller rivers. And we have one river here called the Big Head River, which is up in MyFord. And it’s Collingwood area, which is north again, north of Toronto, a couple hours north of Toronto, but a really fast, smaller river pocket water everywhere. So If you think of any of the rivers that you see, where If you need to walk 10 feet, you’re, it’ll take you, like across the river, it’ll take you maybe three minutes to get that 10 feet. Jeff (14m 23s): That’s how this river is. And it just lends so well to a tight line nipping rig. And so I started doing that about seven years ago, maybe eight years ago. And it increases your catch for steelhead by a thousand percent. Yeah. Dave (14m 40s): Which lake does the big head flow into? Jeff (14m 42s): It flows into Georgian Bay, which is part of Lake Huron. Dave (14m 47s): Lake Huron, yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah, it’s unique that the Lake Huron, the Great Lakes are so interesting because of the way everything’s connected and where things are at. But essentially you’re, yeah, you’re north of Toronto there. And how does the Georgian Bay, is that just a normal, basically another lake similar to Lake Huron? Or is it different? What, you know, why is it called Bay is just ’cause it’s a, yeah. What’s the deal there? That’s a Jeff (15m 8s): Really good question. I don’t think any Canadian knows. Yeah, right. To be honest with you. But it’s, it’s basically a bay, a huge bay of Lake Huron. Yeah. But it’s different because when you get into Georgian Bay, that’s called cottage country for here in Ontario. So, you know, Muskoka is a little place called Muskoka is up there. Okay. And that’s where all the, all the money is. Yeah. Dave (15m 34s): The fancy houses and everything. Jeff (15m 36s): Yeah. The $10 million homes. Dave (15m 38s): I gotcha. They’re on the lake, they’re around Georgian Bay, Jeff (15m 40s): All around Georgian Bay and all around in the, the rivers that are up there and the, the other little lakes and Lake Joe and all these, these different legs, they’re just, they’re absolutely beautiful. But when you get a, when you, if you’re boating on, on Georgian Bay, it is so rocky that you really have to watch yourself and, and know, know what you’re doing. But it has a lot of fish and it’s all, a lot of the, a lot of the steel head are, are all wild up there. Oh, they are. So, yeah. So they’re, they’re not just a, a stock steelhead. So when they come up, when they come up in October, especially in the Big Head River, you, it, it’s a little bit early. They, you can get them coming up. If you get the rain somewhere late September and early October and mid-October, and those fish are hot. Jeff (16m 26s): Mm. They, they, they’re hard. They’re, and with the flow of this river, it’s a really big flow. It’s skinny. So it just, it’s like the water’s just sort of pushed through in this river. And when you hook one, If you hook, say six steelhead in a day and you land too, you’ve done well. Dave (16m 44s): Oh really? Jeff (16m 46s): Yeah. Because they get themselves wrapped in rocks. They got, there’s not a lot of brush on it. Brush gets pushed away because of the flow, but a lot of pocket water. So that’s that. As I said, that just lands so well too. The, the tight line Dave (17m 2s): Trout Routes is the most comprehensive mapping app for trout anglers. With over 50,000 trout streams, 350,000 access points, public land maps and more Trout routes is the number one resource for navigating, researching, and exploring trout streams. You can download trout routes for free in the app store today. Just search for trout routes on your phone and take your exploration to the next level. That’s Trout Routes. T-R-O-U-T-R-O-U-T-E-S. Grand Teton Fly Fishing is a premier guide service and fly shop that has access to some of the most coveted rivers and lakes in Western Wyoming. Their simple goal is to share their valued resource and have you experience a native cutthroat trout rising to a single dry fly in the shadows of the Tetons. Dave (17m 49s): You can check out Grand Teton right now at Grand teton fly fishing.com. Let them know you heard of them through this podcast. Maybe let’s just talk about that a little bit on the, the, your setup on the gear and stuff with the tight lines. Maybe talk about that. What’s the ideal rod for this and, and talk about the, the leader setup and all that. Jeff (18m 8s): Yeah, no problem. The, a lot of people, like, you know, when they’re doing nymphing for steelhead, they, you know, especially when they have an indicator they like an 11 and a half foot or something that’s gonna, you know, get you out a little bit longer. And the same thing when you’re, when you’re say euro nipping for trout, you know, you 10 and a half foot rods tend to lend well, but what I find with this river and a lot of faster rivers that the longer the rod, it’s obviously you’re gonna have more bend and it’s harder to bring them in. So I actually just use a seven weight, nine foot rod, and I got one, it’s a TFO rod that I use the Axiom two x and it is, it’s beefed up on the butt section. Jeff (18m 53s): So you got a little bit more pulling power If you don’t have pulling power on these fish in this river, you can’t, you can’t get them in it just, they’ll just sit in the current and you can’t move them. So, so I just use a nine foot, whereas a lot of people will use a little bit longer, but I like a nine foot. ’cause it’s, it’s, you know, it’s like when you’re fishing for small mouth bass and you get some of these big hogs, we do a lot of small mouth bass here also. Sometimes it’s a, a a nine foot, but sometimes even an eight foot rod just a little bit shorter. So you can bring these guys in is just a little bit easier to, to do on that. And what I do is I just, I put on, I bury the fly line and I put on a 12 pound maximum chameleon and I put about 30 to 34 feet of that. Jeff (19m 42s): So that’s gonna take the fly line right out of the situation. Then I throw on a, depending on the, the flow on something, anywhere from four, three and a half, well probably four feet, five feet of cider tippet, I use the sa scientific angers. But Rio has some good, some good lines. So to also on the cider tipt, but I’ll probably use a zero X for that ’cause I’m just trying to taper it down the, yeah, the Maxima camil and it being 12 pound, the cider tipt being 10 pound, the zero X is a 10 pound test. And then I’ll probably go anywhere from a three x or four x or six pound or an eight pound on the Tippet. Jeff (20m 23s): So that will be about maybe two and a half feet, you know, that kind of a thing. So, and then I will use split shot and you know, If you talk to any of Euro nm for, you know, using split shot is a taboo. Yeah. But with steelhead, and they’ve got one thing on them on their mind, they, they need to get to the tributaries. They’re not looking up and they’re, I mean, you know, in, maybe in the springtime they’re looking up and they see bugs and they’ll, because they’re trout, they’re gonna be eating, but a lot of times they’re looking at the tail ahead of them and or the fish beside them and you know, they’re fighting that fish or they’re, they’re trying to, you know, get to this other fish in front of them. So you need to get the fish down. So you need to lose a lot of flies and, but they still eat as you know. Jeff (21m 6s): Yeah. They need to eat, so you need to bump it on their nose. It’s unfortunately, it, it is kind of a force feeding kind of a thing. Dave (21m 13s): Right. Yeah. How do you do that with your, your split shot? Where are you putting the split shot in relation to the fly? Jeff (21m 18s): Yeah. Well, I do a two fly set up and sometimes, depending on the flow, if the flow is really big and because If you get into some of these rivers, like the big head or a lot of rivers in the states that are, you know, quite turbulent, there’s a lot of pushup from the currents and a lot of different currents within, say a certain run that you’re trying to fish. So what I’ll do is I’ll put that split shot pretty close. I, it’ll be somewhere about six inches above to seven inches. Some people like to go 10 inches. I like to have it just a little bit above the fly. And I do like to use flies. I do use a lot of yarn flies Dave (21m 56s): As opposed to say what, like a bead pattern or something like that? Yeah. Jeff (21m 59s): But I, I do, yeah. I use the, the yarn flies and such. Yeah. But I do use a lot of fly, I mean, basic pheasant tails with a purple head, purple tungsten head or a hair’s ear purple tungsten head on, just on a hair’s ear works so well on these things. So even though you got a tungsten head, say on the, on your, on your, your point fly and probably a, you know, just a regular BB split shot, maybe six inches above. Then I’ll tie, and this is where it gets controversial, where you tie that second fly onto that, I will just tie it onto the shank of the, of the first fly. A lot of people will tie it on the eye of that hook, if that makes sense, If you following me on that. Jeff (22m 40s): But, because a lot of times what I wanna do, if I tie it on the shank of that first hook about another, say eight inches of say six pound tibit down to another fly, I will put another split shot between that first fly and that second fly because of the up currents and because I really want to get that both those flies right down to the bottom. Dave (23m 5s): Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that’s your double fly setup and then was it four to five feet of cider Jeff (23m 10s): About that? Yeah. Oh, four to five feet. And that just depends on how deep your the river is at the time. Yeah. You know, see what the, you just check the flow, take a look at it if you’re, because what you’re not doing with this is that I find with steelheading is that I find I’m more successful if I look at the people pressure and you know, when you go to a Steelhead River, normally there’s lots of people out, and the big head river’s not one of those rivers where there’s a thousand people out on the river at a time, but there’s lots of, say, center piners and you know, the guys are using indicators, they’ll be in the pools. But those pools, when they catch those fish, they’re gonna squirt out, squirt out a lot of the fish. Jeff (23m 50s): And some of those fish were, are gonna maybe squirt out and go back down river or they’re gonna go up river into the really fast stuff. And we catch most of our fish in the really fast rapids. Dave (24m 1s): Oh really? So you’re getting ’em after if they’ve been kicked around a little bit. Jeff (24m 4s): Right. So that’s what I mean if, so I, I love, you know, someone, when I have a customer, they’ll go, oh geez, look at all the people out here. Yeah. And I’m just, I’m just rubbing my hands on going, oh, I know. Look. Dave (24m 15s): Oh wow. So the more people, the the better for you. This is great. It Jeff (24m 19s): Is. No, I mean it really is with this, with the tight line, it just gets you excited and you’re thinking, oh, look at all those people in those pools. That’s fantastic. So then, then you play the game where if you’re talking to your customer and you say, okay, If you were, if it was say your customer’s name is John. Yeah. And so you, you look and say, okay John, If you were a steelhead and you know, you just got spooked out of that pool and you came up river, where would you stop and relax? And so we just start analyzing a certain area. Then, you know, obviously you’re looking at maybe a little pocket water where water’s just pouring over a, a larger rock or even a smaller rock, or is there a channel here or there? And we just start hitting that. Jeff (24m 60s): And a lot of people, especially with steelhead will go, well, you know, we’ve done 20 drifts here, I should we move on? And no, you keep at it for a good maybe 15 minutes, 20 minutes in a certain spot. And If you don’t get anything, of course then move because you know, these steelhead are on the move, but a lot of times they just won’t hit anyway until you actually hit them on the, on the, yeah. Get em on in the right, right in the nose. Dave (25m 26s): Yeah. That’s how you’re doing it. So how do you, so you’re finding these little runs and and is the typically, what’s your typical depth in these faster water units? Jeff (25m 36s): Probably only about three feet. Dave (25m 37s): Yeah. So about three feet. Yeah. Jeff (25m 39s): You know, you know, and that three feet, and it’s the same thing with swinging, I find too, you know, when you’re, like, when you’re swinging on a, on our, some of our other rivers, not to talk about, you know, we’ve got the Maitland River, that’s my other river that i, I guide on. But when you fish, the Maitland River is such a large river that you are, you’re more, you know, the the single hand spay or double hand spay. But where we have the most opportunity for these fish and mo most action, isn’t it, around that three foot run, three, especially at the end of the run. So it’s the same thing with these fish that are in the big head. And when we’re nipping for them, and it’s a really fast river, they’ll be sitting in two feet of water and they’re not that spooky because the, the rapids is cover for them and because it’s cover for them, they really can’t see us that much either, which is kind of nice. Jeff (26m 30s): So I don’t find the, the steelhead, you know, whereas a brown trout, you know, you really gotta creep up on them. Or even a big five, five pound small mold bass. Yeah. You know, these big fish like that, you have to be very wary. Dave (26m 42s): Do you find, you have to be wary if you’re, are the bass and brown trout in, will they hold in that similar fast water? Jeff (26m 49s): Well, the, not as much, the brown, the brown trout, I find they, you know, especially up in the Sau River, they really hug the banks of the river and, and those slower pools on in the banks. I, I find them not as much in the pools. I find the ones that are feeding are the ones that are near the banks is what I find. Like Dave (27m 10s): An undercut bank or something like that. Or Jeff (27m 12s): Undercut. Yeah, you got it. The undercut. So, and normally my guy, my guiding is, you know, we start around, you know, seven in the morning kind of a thing or, or you know, light and till about, by the time three o’clock comes around, normally a customer’s pretty pooped. So we’re not getting that, we’re not really getting that afternoon unless somebody wants to go on the afternoon kind of a thing. Okay. Dave (27m 33s): So you don’t have to. So as far as these fish with steelhead and what, talk about that a little bit on the timing. So you mentioned September. Are you fishing all the way through until the snow starts coming in? Or how does that look? Yeah, Jeff (27m 44s): Actually we, I was out on the 29th of December this year guiding. So a lot of our rivers that are just trout rivers, they will close September 30th and then, but then the other rivers that have steelhead in them, they stay open until December 31st. Dave (27m 59s): Oh, okay. So everything closes, Jeff (28m 1s): So yeah. And then you just hope that it doesn’t get too cold that the river, you know, freezes over before that. But that’s what we’re doing. We’re we’re hitting them in the, at at that time, right. In October, November, you get probably the six pound to eight pound fish that are coming up and the steelhead that are coming up and they’re absolute bullets. They’re full of power and energy because of the water’s not that cold yet. But then as it transitions into mid or end of November, into December, that’s when the big boys roll in. And big boys for us, you know, this is not the cheena or, or or you know, that, but big boys for us are anywhere from 10 to 12 pounds. Jeff (28m 43s): And that’s when they seem to come up in that, that kind of water and that or that kind of timeframe. They’re a lot of fun too, because If you don’t mind the cold, they’re a lot of fun. And again, they’re always hitting flies and you know, people use a lot of the squirmy whammies. Dave (28m 59s): Oh yeah. I was gonna ask you, what, what are the, If you had to say a top, you know, a few flies for your box, squirmy whammy, what, what are for nipping, what are those? Jeff (29m 5s): Yeah, well, for nipping again, it, well I have a couple that are a little bit different. I, a lot of times I just wrap some purple thread on a size, probably size 14 cat curved hook and with the bead head, purple bead head and just a, you know, probably maybe a pink collar on it or off maybe a root beer collar. So the purple works really well. And also a green, a green Cass works really well. Also like a larvae, again with the steelhead, you know, a little bit of a per i i, for some reason I do like the purple heads and if it’s not that, I’ll just use a bullet or, what’s the word? Jeff (29m 49s): Gun metal gun metal head. Oh, okay. Color. Yeah, just an off block. And if it’s really bright, I like to use an off block color because then there’s no shine on it. Oh yeah. That might spook them. So, yeah, Dave (29m 60s): I gotcha. Okay. And then when you’re, let’s just take it to that, run, that three foot run or the shallower water, how do you fish? Are you standing there and how close are you getting the fish? And then are you casting upstream or talk about how you’re getting it down to ’em? Jeff (30m 11s): Yeah, well it’s a, my, my whole thing is that you can get pretty close to these saints because like say you, you walk into an area where it’s lots of rapids and you can see a boulder maybe out 10 feet out. So you, you get maybe, you know, you can, you can get maybe five feet away from that, that five to six feet away from that and start working the, the water above that. But my, my whole thing is that I try to get people to do, if you’re not straight up and down, your fly’s not gonna be down on the bottom. So I try to teach them to think of the line itself as a laser or a very hot wire. And what you’re trying to do is cut through like a piece of butter or, or something and you’re just trying to cut a, a line right through that, through the water with this really hot line. Jeff (31m 2s): And because if it’s lying straight or if it’s lying sort of on an angle a little bit, then your, your fly’s not gonna get down. But as soon as you, you go that up and down and lead it a little bit with your rod tip, just lead a little bit with your rod tip and you can actually almost pull it a little bit faster. ’cause nothing’s really gonna go slower than the current, you know, these nims aren’t gonna be able to go slower, but they might go a little faster. And so almost slightly pull it a little bit faster, but just guide it into the area where you think you can. And you know, really that’s, it’s a very simple method. People try to make the tight line nymphing very technical. Yeah. And it’s not, Dave (31m 41s): Yeah, it’s not technical, but it’s part of it is the challenging of the casting. That’s one thing with all this weight and the lead. And I guess that’s one question I had too on the leader. So you’re, you’re talking about using the, you know, kinda six or eight pound, I mean I think you, when you think of trout, you always think, you know, they’re using really super thin liters, super long liters. But are these like, are they thin? Are they cutting through the water? Is that the idea here that you’re getting really thin liters and could you go down even thinner down to four pound or something like, you know, even less? Jeff (32m 10s): Oh yeah, you certainly could, but you wanna use obviously as much as heavy as you can because you wanna bring the fish in as quickly as you can. Yeah. It’s fun to get the hook up and it’s fun, but you don’t want to wear the poor thing out. And you know, I do see a lot of people saying, well, I, I took out my three weight for the steel head and we had such a good time and I’m just cringing. Yeah. Dave (32m 29s): Three way. So like actually a three weight rod, not a three weight spay rod, but a three weight hand, like Jeff (32m 33s): Just a three-way rod, you know, kind of thing. Wow. And I’m just cringing for these four things, but no, if I could use a 12 pound tip, I probably would just to get it in. But this really six or eight is the best way to go. And when it comes to euro and tight line nymphing to be really successful, because most people, as I said, they catch the fish in more the, the places where you think they would be in the pools and all that. But when you’re working the rapids, you really have to know how to read water. So when I’m teaching the euro or the tight line NI keep, keep calling it euro. I don’t really wanna call it euro, but the tight line, yeah. I’m teaching almost 50% on how to get that fly down there. Jeff (33m 17s): But 50% of the time is, is where the fish are because you know, If you sounds silly, but If you fish where the fish are, it makes it a lot easier. Yeah. And so reading the water, especially in fast, fast pocket water, you know, it just looks like a blur to most people. And you know, when you really take a look at it and say, okay, there’s a rock there, there’s a channel there, there’s, there may be a ledge there. You really have to learn how to read water more. You learn how to read water in that specific situation. Boy you’ll be really, really successful with this type of steelhead fishing with this tight line. Right. Tight line style. Dave (33m 56s): Yeah. Find the ledges. ’cause the fish are gonna be in a big run or rapid, they’re gonna find the slot. Right. That’s the thing. If there’s one slot, If you could find that little area, then that’s your best bet Al. Although, well that yeah, yeah, Jeff (34m 8s): Well, well big pie. And you know what, there are slots where they will hang in all the time. I’ve got my five best spots on this one river and they’re basically, you know, I’ll say to somebody, I say, listen, I can’t guarantee a fish but put it here. Yeah. Dave (34m 25s): Right. Jeff (34m 25s): And almost, let’s say seven times outta 10 there’ll be a fish there and there may be fish there, they just might not even have on those other three times. But they always sit in these, these certain slots and these certain slots are so small and people walk by them all the time. And you just, once you get to know them, you just keep going back and each flow, you fish it better or fish it different with each flow. You know, just maybe an extra split shot or maybe a different fly to get it down. Or sometimes maybe only one fly. ’cause maybe the second fly, because it’s such a small spot, is is gonna kind of spook them. So it’s really as small of a brain they have, they’re pretty darn smart. Dave (35m 4s): Are you, when you’re getting it down, are you kind of feeling like bump bump? Are you bumping that split shot all the way down through the, the slot? Jeff (35m 11s): Kind of, kind of try not to bump it too much. I, my theory is, is that when a fly goes in the fish, even though they’re looking at the tail in front of them, probably see it maybe coming, maybe say from eight feet away. So if it constantly gets stuck on the bottom, they’re probably thinking it’s nothing really real. So you gotta find that If you can get that perfect drift where, and that’s why the cider tip, it works so well because you know, you’ve been catching this one rock constantly. So you, when you put it in, you lift it up a little bit at that spot, then you put it back down, lift it up, lift it down, and you’re just mapping out the bottom. And with the migratory fish, they’re on the bottom. Yeah. Normally, you know, they’re normally somewhere around that bottom area. Jeff (35m 54s): And, and I find too is that I get people to try to, when they put the fly up, try to get it up as much as you can and then lift it up quickly so you get a vision on that cider tip. ’cause it’s hard to see, especially in some light. And then try to get the maximum drift, try to get, you know, 20 feet of a drift or a 25 feet of a drift, which you can with this stuff. And that’ll really, that’ll really help. But always If you get caught, think it’s a fish, you know? Yeah. Just set on everything, you know, and you, you’re gonna lose flies. Dave (36m 24s): Yeah. You’re gonna, yeah, exactly. Or is the cider, so if you’re in a spot, you said sometimes you can get within five feet, once you, If you, I’m picturing cast upstream or a little bit, drop it down into where you think the fish is at and then you mentioned 25 feet. Are you letting it drift down below you and then down is further down? Jeff (36m 42s): Yeah. Big time, you’re know, know you, you’ve always got a certain amount out. It’s like, like say you’ve got, I don’t know, 10 feet or 12 or 15 feet of, of line out kind of a thing. So you know, you send it out in upriver and you know, just keep going. And then as it’s going past you, you’re lowering the rod tip to keep that fly at that same level and lean with it. Almost be athletic is what I try to tell people outta, you know, get on the balls of your feet. Just don’t stand there and Right. You know, think about what you’re gonna have for dinner that night, which I do a lot of times anyway. Yeah. But, you know, try to be ready for a strike at all times. And I find that’s the same thing with a spay rod. You know, you talked about, you know, I got a couple buddies, I got a buddy here that’s one of the most amazing steel header Jim Bonney. Jeff (37m 25s): And he catches so many fish on a spay rod is because every swing he swings, he feels he’s gonna get a fish, everyone. And so he’s ready and he’s swinging that flag correctly and that kind of a thing. So it’s the same thing with this is that just think you’re going to get a hookup every time and don’t be, you know, just be ready. And if you’re not catching your fish, that doesn’t mean, you know, some days you’re not gonna catch a fish. I mean, you’re not always gonna catch a fish. But If you do everything possible then it doesn’t matter If you don’t catch a fish, at least you tried and did everything. Right. Dave (37m 59s): What’s the hookup like on, you know, the fish? Are these mostly subtle takes or how do you know? You know, mostly Jeff (38m 6s): Subtle because it’s like they suck it in and they don’t even know and then all of a sudden it’s just a boom boom. Yeah. And sometimes you’ll get a slam on a fly like this, but it’s not like a spay where, you know, you get a slam in your rut is almost taken outta your hands. That kind of a thing. It’s more, If you think of it with the fly, going down into a, into a certain little channel and a fish just opens his mult and takes that fly. It probably doesn’t even know it’s hook for the first two seconds. But as it’s getting tighter with the flow and you give it that little yank, then you just feel that boom boom and because you’re tight line, which is nice all once soon as you feel that you just let go of your trigger fingers that you’ve got on that line and it’s off and you’re off to the races. Jeff (38m 52s): Yeah. Dave (38m 52s): And are you landing the, are these fish running on you getting down into your fly line and stuff like that? Or are you keeping ’em pretty close? Jeff (38m 59s): Oh, all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All the time. And again, think of a fast river, a fast fish that’s maybe eight, nine pounds. It’s got lots of energy. It hits it. You know, I always say to people, you’ve gotta let a fish run so let it run. And a lot of times, we’ll with, especially with the flow on these rivers, we’ll land a fish maybe a quarter of a mile down the, down the river Dave (39m 22s): Downstream. Jeff (39m 23s): Yeah. It’s a pain in the butt for a guide. Right. Dave (39m 26s): You gotta, you gotta, yeah. You’re chasing with your client. Jeff (39m 29s): You’re just Right. And if it’s one of those days where, and we can have on this particular river and some other rivers, we can have days where you’re hooking up to 20, 23 fish or four Wow. 24 fish. It’s like some days are magical. My gosh. And you know, you almost, I, when you get one of those days, I almost feel like pushing, pushing the customer outta the way and gimme that ru this is, you’re having too much fun. But yeah, you can have some magical days. You can have some tough days of course, but you know, you can have some of those days that you know. But a real typical day on the big head, realistically you can get anywhere from six to 10 hookups. Yeah. Dave (40m 6s): Hookups. So that might be a, you know, maybe a fish on for a few seconds sort of thing or maybe longer. Jeff (40m 11s): Yep. You got her. And you know, they’ll run down and, or up river, but mostly down river. ’cause they’re, you know, they don’t live in the river. So their whole mindset is, screw this, I’m going home. And home is the lake. So they’ll just take the water and take the current, just go and they’ll snap you off. So, yeah. Gotcha. And you know, even though you’re trying to let ’em run, Dave (40m 32s): I just returned from an incredible 5,000 mile road trip to Wisconsin with my family and our project m from four wheel campers allowed us to see things and go places in comfort that we didn’t think possible for over 50 years, four wheel campers has been building tough, lightweight, popup campers designed to fit almost any truck bed giving adventures like me, the freedom to camp anywhere my truck can go, the popup design can be set up and taken down in under a minute. The interior has a slide out bed to maximize the space and the project M allows you to keep your trucks tailgate so you can still use your truck as a truck whenever you need. Four wheel campers also offers building campers like the luxurious Orvis edition for those, seeking a little extra comfort outdoors. Dave (41m 16s): If you own a truck and are curious which model best suits your needs, you can visit four wheel campers.com right now. And when you’re there, you can customize your own camper, find a dealer nearby and explore upcoming events to see one in person, elevate your outdoor experiences with four wheel campers. Wow. This is cool. Yeah. So I mean, what else would be we, are we missing here on the tight line euro nipping kind of for steelhead, is it similar to, very similar to trout, just with bigger gear? Is that kind of what we’re doing? I guess you, you’re adding split shot too, so that’s a little bit different than your typical Euro nipping. Jeff (41m 51s): Yeah, a lot of times a lot of guys don’t use trout. I just find brown trout are awesome, but they’re spooky finicky and I don’t use as much a split shot. I use maybe a, a larger tungsten head or sometimes the water really isn’t as high also when you’re going for brown trout. And so the flows are are smaller, so you really don’t need the split shot as much and those fish are looking up, so you know, those fish are looking up and looking for bugs brown trouts. So you, you know, you can be in different columns of the water when you’re doing that kind of tight line for them. But, but, but the steel head, yeah, no, it’s, I just find you gotta get it down and you, you got, you gotta read the water, be very, very good at reading water. Jeff (42m 39s): That is, you know, that is for any kind of fishing, but more so I find for the migratory fish. And, and the same thing with spay. You know, you want to be swinging where the fish are and and such, so, you know, obviously boulders are the key. Dave (42m 54s): Yeah. Boulder. So that’s the key to reading water is finding the, if there aren’t slots, you know, of find boulders or anywhere where the water’s broken. Jeff (43m 2s): Yeah. You know, and you know, that kind of a thing. And, and the same thing with spay also. And a lot of people try to slow the fly down too much. Whereas I tell ’em, well let’s, instead of doing a a upward mending on your fly line, let’s do a downward mend and get that fly ripping, ripping through the current. And a lot of times that’ll get a steelhead, even a lazy one, you know, getting up and going for that fly. It is just like, if someone’s throwing in a, in a spinner or a Ella or whatever, what’s, let’s say a spoon or something like that, If you don’t reel that in quick enough, it’s gonna get stuck. Yeah. So, you know, when you know, and guys catch a lot of steelhead with spoons and, and that kind of a stuff and hardware. Jeff (43m 45s): So those things are moving pretty quick. So you know, your fly should be moving pretty quick too. And that’s why I said on the Euro nymphing is that sometimes move that fly a little bit faster than the current. It’s just an anomaly for these fish to see that if it’s going slower, I find that doesn’t work at all. But if it goes a little bit faster, not a lot faster, but just goes a little bit faster than that current, get that fly just ripping a little bit that may entice these, some of these things that are lethargic to come out and to hit it. Dave (44m 15s): That’s awesome. How do you, once you get the fish on and it’s, and you’re getting ready to land it, talk about that. How do you, are you using a net or what’s that look like? Jeff (44m 23s): Yeah, always using a net and that’s the most stressful time for a guide. Yeah. Dave (44m 26s): Well, what’s the net, what’s your go-to? What type of net do you use? Jeff (44m 30s): I’m trying to just, just Dave (44m 31s): Regular hoop net with a big, big net. Yeah. Jeff (44m 34s): Just basic, you know, I got, well I lose nets all the time. I leave them on the river. Yeah. It’s just a pain in the, you know, I’m always thinking, oh, I lost my, I left my river and I know exactly where I left it, but that could be like three miles up river and there’s no way I’m going back for it really. Dave (44m 50s): So Yeah. Jeff (44m 51s): Yeah. No, screw it. Yeah. So I, so someone will have a nice nap, but I just good sturdy net, you know, just, you know, anything that’s not gonna hurt the steelhead or hurt the fish, you know, that kind of a thing. But that’s also what I, as I said, you know, someone says, well, do you have any stress in your, in your life as a guide? And that’s the only time I find where it, when it’s game on and you’ve got, you know, a big corporate customer or someone who hasn’t fished and they finally get a day out, they’ve been, you know, working their, their butt off and now you gotta get that fish into the net and If you make a mistake and it’s gone because you hit the line or whatever, you’ll get a stare Dave (45m 32s): That’s Jeff (45m 32s): From the other, from the other band. So Dave (45m 34s): You gotta get a picture of that one. Are these wild, you mentioned wild is there is, are there hatchery fishing here? There’s mostly all wild Jeff (45m 40s): Yeah, there’s a few, yeah, a few that come in that are hatchery and stuff, but you know, a lot of the ones, a lot of the ones that are coming up here are, are wild. So that’s a really cool, cool thing to see. And we’re, we’re obviously catchier bullies, you know, being an ambassador of the river. Dave (45m 55s): Yeah. Can you, can you keep fish? Yep. Jeff (45m 58s): Yeah. You can keep fish on, on this river. Dave (46m 0s): So people are keeping killing fish and eating steelhead. Jeff (46m 3s): They are. Which is just pains me to see. Yeah. And just pains me to see, and especially, you know, when you see one guy in the morning who took two out and then you see him in the afternoon, took two out. I just, yeah. It’s just, it’s a killer. Yeah. So it’s just like, I’m sure a lot of, a lot of rivers out there, north America and well in the world where, you know, there’s, there’s nothing wrong with keeping a fish and, and you know, at all, there’s nothing wrong. I’m not one of those preachers and like, but it, If you just take too many, that’s, that’s wrong. But steelhead to me, they should be catch and release, I think. And same thing with a large small mold. Jeff (46m 43s): Yeah. You know, you look at somebody who’s taking a five and a half pound river small mouth out and that thing is 25 years old for a river small mold, you’re, you’re thinking, oh, that’s just wrong. Wow. You know, smaller ones. Okay. Is Dave (46m 55s): That how old those smallies are? They get up to that, that old, they’re 25 years old. Jeff (46m 59s): Yeah. River small mold. They grow very slowly. And I think you had Rob Heal on Yeah. A little while ago. Yeah. And he talked about the Saugeen River. The Saugeen River, which I was saying we did a lot of stuff on for the Brown Trail farther up. But those, those bass in there, they get humongous and there’s some six pounds, but they’re fat, but they grow so slowly. So you know, some of them will be anywhere between those larger fish, anywhere between 18 and 25 years old. So they’ve seen a lot of, they’ve seen a lot. Yeah. They’ve seen a lot. They’ve seen a lot and yeah, so they, and they’re, they’re a neat fish. And the other river that I fish for small mouth is the Maitland. And that’s Maitland is still flows also into place called Godrich, which is in, also goes into Lake Huron. Jeff (47m 47s): But this river is, it’s a great steelhead. It’s a swinging river. I think I talked about it, but it’s a fantastic small mo bass river and it’s a sight fishing river, so it’s like fishing for bonefish. Oh wow. Yeah. So you’ll, you’ll sit there and you can see standing as you’re walking in, in a certain run or a certain small area, you can see two or three, four or five pound small mouth and try to get those. That’s technical and it’s fun. Yeah. Dave (48m 13s): Wow. That’s really cool. Nice. Well, let’s start to take it outta here. This is our casting and comfort segment today, brought to you by heated core and heated core. There tagline is, stay out longer and stay comfortable with heated cores, battery powered layers that provide consistent warmth through the year. And we had an episode actually on with Amber where we talked about this. And so shout out to heated core.com. There are one way you could stay warm out there. I think that’s a challenge, right? How do you keep your, your arms and you know, everything from freezing. So what’s your tip in the winter? So you talked about being fishing up through December. How are you staying warm out there? What’s your big tip there? Jeff (48m 49s): What’s my tip there? Dave (48m 51s): Are you wearing like, you know, like, because it’s cold, right? You guys get some cold weather, don’t you when you’re fishing? Yeah, big Jeff (48m 57s): Time. I, you know, I, I’m pretty lucky I don’t get, my legs don’t get cold. I mean, like, you know, you wear the thickest zip up waiters you can with regard to that, you know, good. What I do find spikes on my, I have spikes in my, my boots. And of course those really work well, Dave (49m 15s): Right? So that is one thing. You don’t wanna fall, like falling in the water would not be a good day. Have you, have you had that, have you had some clients have that happen to ’em? Jeff (49m 23s): Oh yeah. Actually it’s more me going in. Dave (49m 26s): Oh really? You going? So how do you deal with that when you go down and maybe you get water in your waiters? Jeff (49m 30s): Yeah. You just have to grim and bear it that kind of a thing. But a lot of times, you know, again, as, and I’m sure other guides are, are, are the same way. You know, your number one goal is to keep your customer happy and dry. Yeah. So If you see a customer going in, a lot of times the reason I’ve gone in is because I’ve kept him from going in, but then I’ve slipped and gone in myself. Yeah. And that kind of a thing. And you know, when you go in in November, that’s a pretty crazy spot. But I also, you know, when you’re in, in that kind of water, you always fish and take a look at what’s below you. So, you know, If you do go in, okay, where am I gonna get out kind of a thing. And if it’s, sometimes if it’s too precarious or if it’s a really looks kind of a dangerous, oh, just move on because it’s only a fish and there’s another fish that’ll be just farther up into a, in another easier spot. Jeff (50m 21s): But my, what I tell anybody when they’re especially winter steel heading is always bring a change of clothes and have it in your car for that kind of a reason. You know, that that’s, that’s always key and you know, a little pair of gloves, but your hands are gonna get warm or gonna get so they’re gonna get cold. Doesn’t matter how you look at it. Yeah, yeah. Dave (50m 41s): You are. Well, I find the one thing I love the fingerless wool gloves, like just basic, thin, nothing big, but I find that for some reason the tips don’t get quite as cold and you can, you know what I mean? So I love the fingerless gloves. I’m not sure about you. Jeff (50m 55s): Right. Those are good. My hands get cold, but I, I’m always having to do a lot of stuff with changing flies, putting split shots on. And so I don’t really use, I don’t really, I don’t really use gloves that much. I’ll just put ’em in my pockets. I’m not really carrying a rod. So, but yeah, for, for someone who’s fishing just a small fingerless gloves, they’re the best hat. As I said, change of clothes is the change of clothes is the best. Yeah. Dave (51m 20s): Those are all great. Those are all awesome tips. Yeah. Well, so that’s some winter tips. And then what about, give us a few, let’s say talk about tight line nipping euro nipping for steelhead. Let, let’s talk about that. Just give us like two or three top tips. Somebody’s thinking about going fishing, maybe they’re not gonna get a guy, but they want to do this. You know, what, what are you telling that person to help them? Maybe Jeff (51m 39s): Number one is reading water. So if you’re steelhead fishing, what you want to do is, and I know this sounds like, you know, a a, a scene from Caddy Shack and Caddy Shack where the guy Chevy Chase is saying to the guy saying, you know, be the ball, Danny, be the ball. Oh yeah. And be, you know, that kind of a thing. Well, If you are in a certain run, you have to look down river and say to yourself, okay, if I was a steelhead, you got Jeff the steelhead, I’m coming up this river, where would I go? How would I figure this out? So that sometimes will help people if they visualize themselves as a steelhead. I know that sounds really stupid, but If you, If you visualize the steelhead coming up, where’s he gonna sit? If he’s, and you, and I bet If you look at a certain area when you’re, especially when I’m with the customer and I and I, and we look at an area that’s maybe, I don’t know, a hundred or let’s say 50 feet of a river we can point to with our raw chips, there’ll be one property there, there’ll be one there, there’ll be one there because it’s there. Jeff (52m 35s): And that, and so again, fishing where the fish are is really, really key. And so once you get to where you sort of think the fish are, then you start trying to figure out how to get 10 outta 10 drifts in this spot. Where that in a row, where this spot where you think the fish is. So a lot of people say if the water’s pouring over a rock and you gotta get your fly just above that rock in a certain place. So then it filters into where the, you think the fish is. What I tell people a lot of time is don’t try to just hit that spot like on a dime, always overshoot it and then pull it back in so it gets to that spot. Jeff (53m 15s): And then that, that way If you overshoot it, you can bring it, you can drag it back into the spot and you can virtually get eight to nine to 10 outta 10 perfect drift. So the more perfect drifts you can do, can do. So that’s always a good key. So you’re, you’re visualizing where the steel head’s gonna be, you take that spot, you start hitting your fly in amongst that and set on absolutely Dave (53m 38s): Everything. Yeah. Set on everything. What’s that set look like? What, what is it like, is it just like a trout set, Jeff (53m 42s): Just a trout, just a very small trout set. Because once you do a very, If you do like a, a big large mouth bass Yeah. Trout or a set, you’re gonna rip it right out of the, the things mo but they’re, you know, the steelhead miles are are hard. But once you feel something pull and just a tap, because once that happens the fish are gonna react. I think they’re gonna hook themselves. Yeah. So it’s just trying to get that motion into that fish. So that’s the key. So again, fish with a fish are the set on absolutely everything and work with your weight If you don’t think you’re down. Oh, right. And put another split shot on. Yeah. Dave (54m 19s): And, and you know, you’re down just by the fact that you wanna be touching the bottom occasionally. Like, or, or you know, oh, big time. If you’re not feeling the bottom at all, that means put another split shot on Jeff (54m 29s): You Got it. You just make sure you, and, and there’s, you know, there’s three ways of getting, or a couple ways of getting the, getting a fly down. You can put more weight on and you know, in regular casting you can put weight on, you can set send your fly up farther or you can mend, but we’re not mending. That’s how to get a fly down to the fish. Three ways to do that. But with this you don’t mend. So really either put more split shot on or get your fly up farther up river so it has more time to sync originally. And then that’s how you’re gonna get that fly down. And also you have to have that, the number one thing is to have that fly or your cider tip it straight up and down. Jeff (55m 11s): If it’s on any kind of an angle, your fly’s not gonna get down. It’s just gonna get caught up into the current. So it’s pretty basic when it comes to that. So, and again, just to go through that, you gotta read the water is your best bet. You gotta make sure that you get eight to nine to 10 outta 10 drifts perfect. In that certain run. And you’ve gotta play with your weights on your, on your, on your tippet. So you add more weight or you don’t add more weight or put the fly up a little bit farther Rope river to get the fly down and set on everything and you’re good to go. Dave (55m 44s): Perfect. Good. Well that’s good. And we got a couple more takeaway. Take us outta here and we talked about the new Fly Fisher at the start. Do you have, I always love to hear you mentioned a couple places on the new Fly Fisher. How does that look for you? Are you guys looking out? Do you know exactly where you’re going this year? In the next couple years? Jeff (56m 0s): No. Yeah. No, not, I haven’t got a Dave (56m 2s): Clue. Oh, no clue. Yep. Yeah, Jeff (56m 4s): That usually comes in around April. Dave (56m 6s): Oh, April, okay. Yeah. Jeff (56m 7s): So find out, you know, when, you know what lodges are, are wanting us to come up or, or where we’re going. That’s Dave (56m 15s): Cool. So Mark’s doing that right now. Mark’s kind of behind the scenes, setting up all that stuff. And then you do you typically do what, like two or three trips or how many trips are you doing per year? Jeff (56m 24s): Yeah, I think I’ve done three trips a year, which is awesome. And maybe I’ve, I’ve always, I always say to Mark, I say, yeah, I’d love to do more. You just let me know. Right. If you want me to, you know, keep sending me out. I just did actually, I just did a, a show, a steelhead show with Mark. Oh yeah. That’ll be become out probably in April. Yeah. We were in November we did another river called an Ottawa Saga and the Saugeen. So we, I got some, some fish on the spay on the Sau and we got some fish on an indicator, but I gotta tell you, mark. Yeah. Can he fish? Dave (56m 56s): Oh really? Yeah. He said, I remember talking to him because we had him on the podcast and you could hear, I think I asked him some question about, I think it was about the phishing versus just the experience. And I said something stupid like, God isn’t fishing more, it’s just almost as much about being out there and experiencing it and Right. Is that almost more than the Phish? And Mark was like, no, I don’t agree with that. It’s the phish for me. He’s like, he’s a hardcore Right. Yeah. Jeff (57m 20s): He loves his fish. And you know what I I, he’s tough to be on the boat with ’cause he’s just like, he’s catching fish all the time. And you, and you know, around the, the, the Awasa River that just sounds so Canadian, right? Dave (57m 32s): Ottawas? How do you spell that? Awasa. Jeff (57m 34s): Awasa. Oh God. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, however it sounds, I guess that’s how you spell it. But it’s a slower river and I’m not, I like indicating, but I’ve just never been my, my favorite thing to do. But I hadn’t even got my fly on and he had a fish on, on our, on when we got on the river, I was just still tying my fly on. He’s already got a fish on. He’s unreal. He can find fish from underneath a bus. Just an amazing, amazing fisherman. And that’s why he does so well when he goes to all these places like Chile and, and you know, all the other places. So, you know, you just, he is, he is, as I said, he is, he is a lot of fun to fish with. He’s amazing. But he’s, he’s a, he’s a tough competitor. Jeff (58m 16s): Yeah. Dave (58m 16s): Yeah. That’s it. Okay, cool. So, so that’s Mark. So that’s what you have coming up. Let’s talk a little bit more. So just the area or for you, are you gonna be, is most of your traveling, I guess your guiding, so when does that start for you? When do you start picking up just your normal guiding? Yeah, I Jeff (58m 32s): Guess once the river start busting up, we’ll start getting out probably end of March or maybe maybe April, that kind of a thing. So right now we’re just, I’m actually heading to Sedona, Arizona. Oh really? Dave (58m 45s): There Jeff (58m 45s): You go. Yeah. Which is cool. And apparently you can do some fly fishing there. So I’m probably, my, my wife and I are gonna head out on the, in a couple weeks and we’re gonna go for a couple weeks. So I’m gonna see if I can find some fish there. And then maybe to Florida. We were gonna go to New Zealand, but, But we probably head back down to Florida. Dave (59m 1s): Okay. And are you doing, when you’re doing the Sedona or the Florida thing, are you kind of just flying in, staying in hotels? How, how does that look? Mm, Jeff (59m 8s): Well we actually, we had a timeshare there. Oh, nice. When I say the word ha had, it was in for, on Fort Myers Beach. And we were probably gonna spend quite a lot of the time. But that got blown away by Hurricane Ian. Wow. Couple years ago. Yeah. So, and that was a great spot. Fort Myers Beach was just amazing. There’s lots of snook that would cruise the beach. And there’s a place called Lover’s Key that I would head into, especially in November. And I’d get into Kayak and I’d go tarping fishing. ’cause these, anywhere from, from 20 to 40 pound Tarpon would be laying in Dave (59m 42s): There. The baby tarpon. Jeff (59m 44s): Yeah, the baby tarpon. But they were so quick and it’s all, you’re in a, you’re in an area where it’s like 30 feet wide and you’re in a kayak and it, there’s alligator signs everywhere. Oh really? And I hate to say it, I am zero for 14. Dave (59m 58s): Oh, there you go. So you’ve had ’em on though. Oh, Jeff (59m 60s): I’ve had ’em on, but I just can’t, they get, they get caught up in the, in the mangroves. Dave (1h 0m 4s): Oh, in the mangroves, right. Jeff (1h 0m 5s): Yeah. So, and then they, then they get ripped off kind of a thing. So it’s just, I had one to the hand, almost touched it, but I, I lost it. So I’m, I’m M zero for 14, so I suck at ification. Dave (1h 0m 16s): That’s it. Well, I, I’ve heard some, you know, the, the steelhead is not too different, you know, I mean, I think you’re in an area, the way we’re talking today, I mean, you catch a lot of fish, but you know, you hear some people, and even my brother, I remember he had this story on when he was a younger kid and he told, actually he, I think he wrote about it on our website, but I think he did the same thing. He was like over for 12, it was his first, he was probably 12-year-old and he was, he was out there swinging flies and he lost 12 steelhead in a row. Oh, I bet. And he, on the last one, you know, I think he almost threw his rod. And so it’s that feeling where, you know, it can happen to anybody, you know, but then finally you land one. Right. Same thing for you that tarpon, I think probably once you land that next one, you’re gonna be like, you’ll have it dialed in probably then it’ll be Jeff (1h 0m 55s): Oh yeah. Big time. Well you know what, as they always say, we learn from our mistakes, right? Yeah. So if someone loses a steelhead, like the fir their first two and they probably know what they did. Right. They probably had their left hand on the re didn’t let the real move or, or you know, that kind of a thing. So we learn by our mistakes and we only become better sounds so cliche-ish, but that’s the way I look at every time I lose a fish, it’ll make me better. Yeah, yeah. As I’m swearing. Dave (1h 1m 20s): Totally Good stuff. Well you, this is good. Take ta. We talked, you mentioned TFO, what about Rios or do you have a specific re brand you like to use? Jeff (1h 1m 28s): Re did you say? Yeah, Dave (1h 1m 29s): Like a reel? Yeah. Jeff (1h 1m 30s): Yeah. Well I, I actually, I am a dealer for TFO. Oh Dave (1h 1m 33s): You are? Okay. Yeah. TF o’s good. Yeah, yeah, Jeff (1h 1m 35s): Sure. Yeah. So I, I use mostly TFO stuff and they’re the great, like I said, they’re Axiom two X Rod is just a canon. It’s awesome. And they got some great reels and such. But, you know, I’ve used a lot of reels in the past. But you know, we do a lot of stuff with Orvis with the new fly fixture also. Oh, okay. And so the, the Helios and even the Clearwater rods are amazing, but the reels for Orvis are top-notch. I love them. Yeah. Dave (1h 2m 2s): Orvis is great. Yeah. Orvis is awesome. Yeah, TFOs too. I mean that’s a great story. We’ve had a number of episodes with, you know, TFO from the founder down to, I guess one person we never got was Lefty Cray. But I mean, lefty cray. It’s a cool, the TFO story is cool because of the way, you know, the founder kind of put that all together, you know, and brought all these, you know, lefty and these and Ed Roski like these people in some of the best to basically Oh I know. Basically work with the company and that’s obviously helped him. Jeff (1h 2m 28s): Oh, big time. You know, you got Flip Pal and, and you know, all these names and they’re just not names. These guys are intelligent and they’re amazing. Fly Fisher and they’re pioneers. Dave (1h 2m 37s): Yeah, exactly. Nice. Well this is cool Jeff. This has been a lot of fun. I, I feel like we definitely talk a lot about Swinging Fly, so I love getting a little nipping episode in here and you know, and really it’s, you know, it’s steelhead but it could be nipping for, you know, other species, right. I mean, it’s just fishing at the end of the day. Do you have anything else you want to, that we didn’t talk about today? Any, any last words before we head out here? Jeff (1h 2m 60s): No, I don’t, I think we touched on it quite a bit. I think everything, as I said, if I had my way I’d swing a fly for steelhead, but I got a hidden passion for this tight line. I really do. You know, when you, when you touch some of these steelhead and you are say six feet away from the hookup. Yeah. And it, it just blows the water in front of you. That’s just an insane fight. And that is probably one of the most exciting moments is that initial hookup when you are tight lining. It’s, and just to try to keep it on for, I dunno, three seconds, that initial three seconds. It’s tough to do. So that’s, yeah, it’s fun. Jeff (1h 3m 40s): It’s, I love, I love ’em both, but you know, hard to say. Dave (1h 3m 44s): Yeah, yeah, me too. But Jeff (1h 3m 45s): I, no, I appreciate the time to chat. I, I know I, I probably babbled too much, but I love talking fly fishing. Dave (1h 3m 50s): Oh yeah, no, it’s good. We’ll, we’ll keep up with it. We’ll send everybody out to Calm Waters fly fishing.ca if they want to connect and check in on trips and things like that. I mean, you’re awesome. You’re right there. You guys are kind of just across the border, so I mean, I think it’s probably pretty easy. Do you guys get a few people from the states heading up to fish up there on, on your trips and stuff like that? Jeff (1h 4m 9s): Oh, very much so. Actually a lot. For some reason, a lot from California. Oh Dave (1h 4m 12s): Really? Oh, there you go. Yeah. Jeff (1h 4m 13s): Yeah. I don’t know why. It may be because they’re coming in for conferences maybe. ’cause there is a lot of tech in, in Toronto and, and Waterloo area here, so maybe that’s it. But I, I do find a lot from yeah, a lot in there. Not as much from the border. Dave (1h 4m 29s): Oh right, yeah. ’cause they got their own right down there. They’ve got their own stuff. Jeff (1h 4m 32s): Yeah, they got their own good stuff and whatever. But that, and a lot of people from Italy and for, again, South Africa, it’s, it’s a funny demographic. So Dave (1h 4m 42s): That’s awesome. Yeah. Awesome. Nice. All right Jeff, well we’ll be in touch and thanks again for all the wisdom today and the great episode. And we will check back and talk to you soon. Jeff (1h 4m 50s): Awesome buddy. I really appreciate it. Thanks. Dave (1h 4m 53s): All right, there you go. Tight line nipping, that’s not swinging, that’s tight Line Nipping with Jeff. If you love This episode, please check in with Jeff. Let him know you heard about this podcast, you heard about him on this podcast. That would be amazing. And, and if you’re interested, pick his brain, see if he has availability for a trip. All right. If you haven’t yet, please follow that show. As always. If you’re new to it, you can do that really easy on any of your apps. I want to give, give you a quick reminder. We are gonna be heading out to Argentina, golden Dorado. We all hear about a golden Dorado. Take a look at this fish. It looks kind of like a salmon and in some ways has, I think there’s no resemblance or no evolutionary resemblance or connection, but they look similar with their big head. Dave (1h 5m 37s): But check out Golden Rado. We’re gonna be looking to head out there and we are putting together a trip right now. So if you’re interested in this, you can go send me an email, dave@wefflyswing.com and I’ll let you know what we have as far as availability for spots left on that one. Golden Rado with set fly fishing. Check it out, check in with me. All right, I can get rolling here. Hope you, I hope you have a great morning. I hope you have a great afternoon or if it’s evening, wherever you are in the world. I appreciate you and then hope you have a wonderful evening. We’ll talk to you very soon.

 

Conclusion with Jeff Parks on Tight Line Nymphing for Steelhead

That’s a wrap on tight line nymphing with Jeff! If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to contact Jeff and let him know you heard about him here. You might even get a chance to pick his brain or book a trip. And don’t forget to follow the show if you haven’t done so yet!

Traveled #24 | The Lodge at Palisades Creek with Scott Reimer – Snake River, Mutant Stonefly Hatch

the lodge at palisades creek

Scott Reimer, head guide at The Lodge at Palisades Creek, shares invaluable insights into the unique mutant Stonefly hatch, one of the most fascinating hatches in the Western fly fishing scene.

Throughout the episode, you will be guided through the South Fork of the Snake, learning not only where and when to fish a double dry fly setup but also mastering the art of reading water and setting the hook. Whether you’re an avid fly fishing enthusiast or a curious beginner, Scott’s tips on drift boat fishing and exploring small creeks will equip you with the tools to enhance your fly fishing adventures.


Show Notes with Scott Reimer on The Lodge at Palisades Creek. Hit play below! 👇🏻

apple podcasts

Find the show:  iTunes | Stitcher | Overcast

Subscribe on Android

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts

Subscribe on Google Podcasts

Subscribe via RSS

(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

Sponsors and Podcast Updates

 

The Lodge at Palisades Creek

Episode Chapters with Scott Reimer on The Lodge at Palisades Creek

2:07 – Scott recalls his first encounter with fly fishing in the Black Hills of South Dakota, where he received his first fly rod at the age of four or five. Encouraged by his father, who was an avid fly fisherman, Scott honed his skills in the backyard with a makeshift target practice involving a piece of pipe cleaner and a trash can lid.

4:23 – Scott discusses the guiding season, which typically begins in April when he starts assisting at the fly shop and occasionally running trips, depending on the weather and interest from clients. The main focus of their guiding is on the South Fork of the Snake River, as they hold a permit that allows them to operate there exclusively due to Idaho’s strict regulations.

Photo via: https://www.instagram.com/thelodgeatpalisadescreek/

6:34 – We discuss the geography of the area, noting the confluence of the South Fork and Henry’s Fork, which marks the beginning of the main Snake River. Scott clarifies that American Falls is approximately 60 to 70 river miles from this confluence.

9:19 – Our chat delves into the impact of hatches on fishing success. Scott explains that fish behavior is closely tied to these natural events, influencing when and where they bite. While some hatches are predictable, others have become less prolific, affecting fishing strategies.

10:02 – Scott shares his journey and experiences as a guide at the lodge, where he has been working for 12 years. He recounts his early days on the river, starting with his first drift boat, an older Clackacraft he acquired at the age of 18. Despite its imperfect condition, with visible repairs and missing parts, it served its purpose and floated well.

12:06 – He discusses the various hatches that anglers eagerly anticipate throughout the fishing season. He mentions the early spring betas, noting that while trout don’t often feed on them from the surface, streamer fishing can be effective during this period. As the season progresses into mid-June, anglers can expect a short but excellent green Drake hatch, primarily on the lower river.

13:11 – Scott explains his approach to determining fishing techniques, often starting with a dry dropper setup and adjusting based on fish activity. He shares a memorable experience from the previous season, where he successfully used double dry fly setups for several weeks following the salmon fly hatch, with fish heavily focused on caddis patterns. This technique involved using different sizes and patterns of caddis flies for effective fishing.

14:07 – We get into his double dry fly set up. Scott explains the strategy behind using a larger, more visible dry fly alongside a smaller, less visible one to keep track of potential bites while fishing from a boat. This setup helps maintain visibility and improve the chances of a catch.

18:09 – Scott talks about the logistics and characteristics of the sections near Palisades Dam. He explains that the fishing area is divided into four sections, covering approximately 66 river miles down to Menan. The colder waters from the dam influence the timing of hatches, with the upper section starting later than the lower sections.

19:40 – He shares some essential tips for fishing from a drift boat, especially focusing on the South Fork. As a rower, his primary role is to maintain the drift and guide anglers on when to recast. He advises keeping a 45-degree forward casting angle to maximize success, as casting behind the boat is less effective. Scott notes that on the South Fork, long casts are unnecessary because shorter casts near the boat can be just as fruitful.

21:11 – We discuss how the salmon fly hatch typically occurs in July, followed by the appearance of golden stones, which progress from the lower river upwards. Scott reminisces about a particularly good salmon fly hatch, recalling fishing well into August with these flies. As the season progresses, anglers can expect a variety of mayflies such as PMDs, sulfur duns, and mahogany duns, especially on overcast days.

Towards the end of August, the unique mutant stonefly emerges which are best fished in the early morning. Scott shares the excitement of early morning fishing programs, where anglers start at dawn to target these skittering insects using patterns like Dornan’s Water Walker.

23:16 – Scott shares insights into the best fishing practices, emphasizing the importance of water temperature and timing. He recommends fishing with stonefly nymphs, such as patched rubber legs, when water temperatures approach 50 degrees, just before the hatch. This period, often in June, is prime for targeting stonefly nymphs before the larger hatch in July.

28:20 – The conversation highlights the differences between the rivers, with the Henry’s Fork experiencing hatches earlier due to its status as a tailwater.

32:30 – Scott shares that Henry Winkler and his wife Stacy are frequent visitors to the area, with Stacy often being guided by Scott himself. They fish separately to enjoy the prime position at the front of the boat, which is typically the best spot because guides naturally focus on the forward drift. This strategy gives the angler in the front the first opportunity at the catch, especially effective when using a double dry fly setup.

the lodge at palisades creek
May 25, 2024 “It’s Friday! Be happy. Do things you love this weekend. Be like Henry. Enjoy the moment. Enjoy the release. Live your best life!” (Photo via: https://www.instagram.com/thelodgeatpalisadescreek/)

37:32 – Scott shares insights into techniques, particularly when navigating new water or changing conditions. He emphasizes the importance of adapting techniques based on the fish’s behavior and water conditions. He advises getting the fly close to the bank, especially when fishing with a single dry fly, as fish might be hiding in submerged grass. However, after certain hatches, fish tend to move to seam lines, making a dry dropper setup more effective.

Scott suggests adjusting your approach if fish are not biting, such as changing the depth or the type of flies used. He describes using a double dropper setup, with a big dry fly and a couple of feet to the first dropper, and even adding an unweighted pheasant tail nymph if necessary. He notes that fish behavior can change rapidly, sometimes overnight, requiring anglers to frequently modify their strategies to find success.

39:09 – Scott highlights the significance of local fly shops, such as the Swan Valley, for current fishing insights and guidance.

41:15 – We ask how anglers can avoid missing strikes when fishing with a nymph. Scott emphasizes the importance of setting the hook frequently, noting that “sets are free.” He advises that if something seems suspicious with the dry fly, anglers should set the hook without hesitation. Treating the set like a recast means they won’t lose much time, and although it might not always be a fish, there’s always the possibility that it is.

44:40 – Scott shares his bucket list trips, highlighting New Zealand and Patagonia as top destinations for their exotic fishing opportunities, including the elusive peacock bass.

45:00 – The conversation shifts to Scott’s personal experiences with steelhead fishing. He frequently spends time at the Clearwater and Salmon Rivers, with both offering unique challenges and rewards.

47:46 – We talk about the logistics and planning required if you’re planning to fish during the prime salmon fly hatch season on the South Fork of the Snake River. Below are some key things to remember:

  1. Lodging Guest Advantage: Guests staying at lodges have booking priority. They can reserve trips up to a year in advance when they are checking out, ensuring their spot for the next season.
  2. Day Trip Bookings: While day trips are available, they typically fill in the gaps left by lodging guests. Booking for day trips usually opens in April, and availability is limited.
  3. Guide Preferences: Lodging guests have the flexibility to select their preferred guides. Day trip customers, however, might need to go with whichever guide is available at the time of their booking.

49:18 – Scott walks us through their lodge. The lodge is set on a 26-acre property featuring a private pond stocked with large trout, fed by a spring creek that runs through the grounds. Guests can stay in various cabins, including a unique cabin with a porch extending over the river, providing an exceptional view. They offer dining with breakfast and dinner, and guests have access to a dedicated staff ensuring a great experience with cocktails and excellent food.

the lodge at palisades creek
“From the deck of our 2 bedroom, 2 bath A-frame that sits over the #southforksnakeriver” (Photo via: https://www.instagram.com/thelodgeatpalisadescreek/)

53:08 – We ask some random questions such as his music preference, restaurant recommendations, among others. Scott shares his favorite local restaurants like the SnakeBite and Sandpiper for good meals after a day of fishing. He also highlights the Mountain America Center, which hosts events like hockey games and concerts. Scott mentions enjoying hard rock and metal music, specifically naming Kingdom of Giants as a favorite band.


You can find Scott on Instagram @thelodgeatpalisadescreek

Facebook @palisadescreekflyfishing

Visit their website at tlapc.com.

The Lodge at Palisades Creek


Related Podcast Episodes

Traveled #9 – Lodge at Palisades Creek with Justin Hays – South Fork Snake River, Fly Fishing Lodge, Orvis

WFS 334 – Henry Winkler on the Fonz, Fly Fishing, Happy Days and Barry


Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below




the lodge at palisades creek

Conclusion with Scott Reimer on The Lodge at Palisades Creek

In this episode of Traveled, we had the pleasure of diving deep into fishing the South Fork Snake River with Scott Reimer. From mastering the double dry fly setup to understanding the intricacies of fishing from a drift boat, Scott shared his expertise to help you make the most of your time on the water.

Don’t miss out on future episodes of Traveled where we continue to bring you insights from top guides and anglers. Subscribe to the podcast now and be sure to leave a review to let us know how we’re doing. Until next time, tight lines and happy fishing!

712 | Fly Casting 101 with Marty McVey – Driftless Trout, Fly Fishing Iowa, Fly Casting Challenge

We have a special episode for you where we dig into the art of fly fishing and fly casting straight from the heartland with our guest Marty McVey. We’re gonna get into some on his journey from bait fisherman into fly fisherman, and now a respected fly casting instructor. We find out about the hidden gems of Iowa and some of the great opportunities in the Driftless. We talk about how Marty became a casting instructor and elevated his game. We get into some tips and tricks on that too, to help you with your game and your fly casting today. Marty does some casting instruction online as well. And then we’re gonna talk about this challenge. We got a little fly-casting challenge I have for you at the end. I’m excited to start getting this one out there.


Show Notes with Marty McVey. Hit play below! 👇🏻

apple podcasts

Find the show:  iTunes | Stitcher | Overcast

Subscribe on Android

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts

Subscribe on Google Podcasts

Subscribe via RSS

(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

Sponsors and Podcast Updates


Follow Marty on Instagram 👉🏻 @martymcveyflyfishing

Visit his website MartyMcVeyFlyFishing.com 👇🏻


Resources Noted in the Show

Join the Wet Fly Swing Casting Challenge Here 👇🏻

Related Episodes

649 | The Five Essentials of Fly Casting with Bill Gammel – Texas, FFI, Casting Instructor

647 | The Six-Step Method to Perfect Your Cast with Bruce Richards – Scientific Anglers, Fly Lines, Fly Rods

629 | 5 Tips to Improve Your Fly Casting with Kaylyn Hoggard + Bruce Richards’ 6-Step Casting Method

Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below



711 | Sight Fishing for Northern Pike with Matt Martin – Smooth River Guiding

When you think of a predatory fish, what are the first few species that come to mind? For many anglers, Northern Pike is among the most thrilling predators to catch. If fishing for northern pike is on your radar, today’s episode is a must-listen.

In this episode, we will break down sight fishing for Northern Pike with Matt Martin of Smooth River Guide. Find out his secrets to targeting big Northern Pike by sight. Here’s what you’ll learn:

  • Muskie vs Pike
  • Best time to target Northern Pike
  • Sight Fishing Northern Pike
    • How to Find Pike in Shallow Bays
    • Best Flies (and color) for Northern Pike Fishing
    • The perfect strip, and when the fish strike

Show Notes with Matt Martin on Sight Fishing for Northern Pike. Hit play below! 👇🏻

 

 

apple podcasts

Find the show:  iTunes | Stitcher | Overcast

Subscribe on Android

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts

Subscribe via RSS

(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

Sponsors and Podcast Updates

 

Fishing for Northern Pike
Photo credit: Nicolas Roman @salmographer on Instagram

Episode Chapters with Matt Martin on Sight Fishing for Northern Pike

Matt Martin grew up in Barrie, Ontario, and now lives in Midland, a town on the shores of Georgian Bay. Georgian Bay is known as the 30,000 Islands region. It’s the world’s largest freshwater archipelago.

Matt guides on over 50 lakes and a dozen rivers, targeting 14 different species. Northern Pike is definitely a top species to target, but it can still vary depending on where you are in the province.

Here’s a breakdown of the species you can fish in the area:

  • Smallmouth and Largemouth Bass
  • Northern Pike – Pike season runs from May to June and then again in September.
  • Walleye
  • Muskie
  • Chinook Salmon
  • Coho
  • Rainbow Trout
  • Steelhead
  • Brown Trout
Fishing for Northern Pike
Photo credit: Nicolas Roman @salmographer on Instagram

Muskie vs Pike

Unlike pike, which are easier to catch, muskies are tough. You might not even see one all day, and the chances of getting a hit are low. Muskies are more challenging to catch because they have a lower population and a bigger home range.

For those who want to target muskie, Matt recommends booking more than one day to increase your chances.

Best Time to Go Fishing for Northern Pike

The best time for northern pike fishing is in the spring. The season opens on May 1st in Ontario, and that’s when pike are easiest to catch. Here’s why:

  1. In the first week of May, pike can be found in less than two feet of water, sunbathing in sandy bottom bays.
  2. The main lake water is still cold (around 42-43°F), but the back bays warm up to the 50s. Pike use the warmer water to increase their metabolism.

According to Matt, sight fishing for pike is a whole new level of fun.

Fishing for Northern Pike
Photo credit: Nicolas Roman @salmographer on Instagram

Sight Fishing for Northern Pike

Matt uses an 18-foot Lund Deep V fishing boat for sight fishing. He says it’s perfect for the larger lakes, especially when the waves get rough. Matt uses advanced gear like a Minn Kota motor and Garmin LiveScope to spot pike before casting.

Fishing for Northern Pike in Shallow Bays

In the spring, focus on large, warm bays, especially those near river mouths. These areas draw pike because they offer the perfect hiding spots in weeds or along logs, where pike can ambush prey. Pike are ambush predators, so they wait below the surface to attack.

When fishing for pike, Matt says to keep your fly around 2 to 4 feet above the fish because pike strike from below.

Best Flies for Fishing Northern Pike

Fishing for Northern Pike

Matt prefers using bright, easy-to-see flies when fishing for pike, especially in spring. He avoids natural tones and uses colors like white, yellow, or bright pink.

The key is using flies that mimic the white belly of baitfish. Pike are drawn to movement, so keep that fly above them and use a strip to get their attention.

Stripping Your Fly for Pike

Fishing for Northern Pike
Photo credit: Nicolas Roman @salmographer on Instagram

The way you strip your fly is crucial for catching pike. Most strikes happen during the pause between strips, not while you’re actively moving the fly.

  • For some flies, like the Game Changer, Matt recommends a quick, short strip with a half-second pause to let the fly sink a bit.
  • Other flies like the Yard Sale need a longer strip with a hard kick at the end to make the fly wobble like an injured fish.

Essential Gear for Catching Big Northern Pike

Pike can be super aggressive, so it’s key to be prepared with the right gear to protect you and the fish. Here are some things to remember when fishing for Northern Pike:

  • Use a large, deep net to keep the fish in the water while you unhook it.
  • Have multiple sets of tools like jaw spreaders and pliers for safe handling.
  • Protect the fish to make sure they’re safely released after catching them.

Pike can live up to 20–25 years in the wild. Matt says it’s okay to keep smaller ones (around 27 inches), but those big 40-inch fish should go back in the water. If you keep one, make sure it’s injured and can’t survive being released.

Fishing for Northern Pike
Photo credit: Nicolas Roman @salmographer on Instagram

Matt’s Go-to Tips for Fishing for Northern Pike

  1. Start in Shallow Bays
  2. Bring Multiple Rods and Lines
    • Use 8-10 weight rods and carry lines with different sinking rates: floating, intermediate, type 3, and type 5.
  3. Add a 12-inch section of 20-25 lb bite wire to your leader.
  4. Short Leaders Work Best
  5. Use Durable Pike Lines
  6. Focus on bays with creeks, green weeds, and the right structure.

Matt’s final advice? Stick with it and have faith—pike are out there!


Follow Matt on Instagram 👉🏻 @smooth.river.guiding

Visit their website at SmoothRiver.ca.

Support Wet Fly Swing Sponsors

Sight Fishing for Northern Pike Related Podcast Episodes

Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below

Episode Transcript
Dave (2s): When you think of a predatory fish, what are the first few species that come to your mind and what is it that makes those species so special? Today we are going to break down Northern Pike from one of the best guides in Ontario, and today you’re gonna find out how he does it and how to find Big Pike by site. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. How’s it going? I’m Dave host of the We Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid. I grew up around a little fly shop and have created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts in this country. I’ve also interviewed more of the greatest fly anglers and guides than just about anyone out there. Dave (45s): Matt Martin, smooth River Guide and an expert on targeting big Northern Pike by sight is gonna share all of his best secrets today. If you’re gonna find out where to find the best bays and why you should be starting from the deep water and fishing in towards the shallow, we’re gonna get into that today. You’re gonna find out what the perfect strip is and when the fish will strike. We’re gonna talk about that today, the exact strip you need to do, and also what the perfect color is that you’re gonna be needing to have success out there. We’re gonna get into all today, a bunch of tips and tricks, plus you’re gonna find out how Matt site fishes for Big Pike and how you can do the same. We’re gonna get into it. Seeing the fish, seeing the fly, seeing the take. It’s all here today. Dave (1m 24s): Ontario at its finest. Here he is. Matt Martin from Smooth River ca. How are you doing, Matt? Matt (1m 33s): I’m doing fantastic, Dave. How are you today? Dave (1m 35s): Great, great. Yeah, this is gonna be a fun conversation Today. We are gonna get into Northern Pike. We’ve talked some more Northern Pike over the years. We’ve talked Muskie and really up where you are. Ontario, you know, I think is a hotspot. We’ve heard a lot about it and I think we talked off air though. You got the so fly crew coming on. We just did a podcast with them and there’s a bunch of great people and we’ve actually, it feels like we’ve been hitting Ontario hard recently because we’ve been connecting with the New Fly Fisher and I’ve had a bunch of episodes with them that are coming up here, so it’s been fun, but, but gimme an update. What’s going on now? It’s almost, when this goes out, it’s gonna be kind of early February as it, it’s kind of crazy right now. It’s pretty cold up there, right? Matt (2m 13s): Yeah. Ex extremely cold. You know, our, this year we’ve actually had our first, what feels like real winter in the last like five years. We’ve had snow and ice right from the beginning of December. And typically, you know, the last five years, some of our lakes haven’t even froze over. So now I, I even went out on the ice just yesterday and, and we had like 14 inches of ice in one spot that last year didn’t freeze over, so pretty crazy. Wow. Yeah, so we’re middle of winter right now. It’s perfect time for me to be, you know, getting all the prep done for the air, tying a lot of flies, you know, going on podcasts like yours and yeah, hosting conversations with local live fishing groups and just, you know, working on marketing and getting myself out there pumping up trips for next year. Matt (2m 55s): And I’m seeing bookings roll in faster than ever, which is fantastic. So yeah, it’s that prep time of year that I always look forward to. Dave (3m 2s): Yeah, this is the time when you live, right? The cold, whatever, wherever you’re at, I guess, unless you’re in San Diego or something like that where it’s a little different. Matt (3m 9s): Exactly. Now, now the, now the real work begins this time of year. The the guiding is the fun work. Dave (3m 16s): Yeah, exactly. Did you, did you grow up in Ontario? Matt (3m 19s): Yeah, yeah. I grew up in a town called Berry about an hour north of Toronto. You know, it’s kind of now been absorbed by what we call the GTA, the greater Toronto area. Sure. You know, people live in Berry and commute to Toronto for work, but I, I live just north of Barry now. I live in the town called Midland on the shores of Georgian Bay, known as the 30,000 Islander region. It’s the, the world’s largest freshwater archipelago. It’s like over a million acres of, you know, of bay. It’s off of Lake Huron. So people will probably have heard of Lake Huron. Georgian Bay is just the other side of the peninsula there in Ontario between, I guess it’d be Michigan and Ontario. Yeah, it’s huge. Matt (3m 60s): It’s a fantastic spot if you’re an angler. You know, I’m fortunate enough as a guide that I, I get to guide for, I think it’s 14 species and on, I think I’m, at this point I have like 50 lakes that I’m comfortable on and about a dozen rivers. So like we’ve got so many options for anglers up in this area and you know, even though it’s close to, you know, major population, Toronto’s not small, that vta a is like 8 million people an hour north. You’re, you’re on bodies of water where maybe you don’t see anyone all day. It’s crazy. Dave (4m 29s): That is cool. Yeah, that’s always the, I think that’s why, you know, Ontario and really just Canada in general is a little bit better in a lot of ways. You can get out and away from the city, away from the pressure. I mean, how does that look for Northern Pike? Is it like if you say if you look at the species up in Ontario, you’ve got a number of big ones. Is that a top species? Is that number one? Or what, what do you think is the biggest species you’re out chasing? Matt (4m 50s): Well, you know, for me, yeah, so what am I chasing you at? It’s hard to say across the whole province ’cause it’s huge, right? Ontario. Yeah, it’s like bigger, as bigger, slightly bigger than Texas. So the, what do you call it? The, the species like population demographic. It, it changes is where you are in the province. But where I am, I would say some of the most popular fish would be, you know, in the river or in the lake, sorry, is is definitely the Basque species. So like small mouth and large mouth, closely followed by pike, walleye muskie. And then we also have a huge population of, you know, inland like inland anadromous fish or patrius fish like Chinook salmon coho and rainbows. But in the rivers, yeah, our ANGs are really chasing, you know, rainbows or people call, you know, the, the great lake steelhead. Matt (5m 34s): And then we do have some fantastic brown trail fishing on a couple different rivers here as well. So it’s really diverse. But yeah, I think for me may and most of June is, is Pike time and then again back into September. So I probably do a, if I do a, about 200 trips a year, probably about 40 of them or so are, are pike focused. And then a, a large percentage, probably 80 plus are bass, and then the rest is steelhead and trout with some other cool stuff mixed in there as well. So yeah, pike are popular. Yeah. You know what, you know, you mentioned Muskie and, and I love muskie. I I think they’re a very addicting fish. Yeah. Because Dave (6m 12s): Of the pain. Is it more painful to, it’s more painful to chase a Musky then a steelhead, right? Matt (6m 17s): Oh my gosh, I, you know what, maybe steelhead on the swing is very similar, you know, just the fact that that one opportunity a day might be your only shot with Muskie it’s the same, but the difference is like, you might not even see one, you know, you might not see one porus or, or swirl in a tail out, it just might be zero signs of life, but with all that pain comes massive highs when you get one. You know, even just seeing one, I’ve been fortunate enough to catch a lot of muskie on fly and conventional gear over my life, but I never get bored of it. You know, everyone’s just so exciting. But the thing is with Muskie is it is such a grind, you know, if people book a muskie day with them, I highly recommend to book two or three if they’re really dead set on catching a fish, Dave (7m 0s): Right? That’s the way to do it. Yeah. Book multiple Matt (7m 3s): These. Yeah, you they wanna find the ultimate optimal weather, optimal wind, moon phase, all that kind of stuff. But with Pike, they’re fly rodders fish, you know, like I take a lot of people out that are, you know, long-term fly anglers and they bring a friend along that maybe doesn’t know how to double haul and you know, we give ’em the spinning rod and fly will, I mean 90% of the time out fish spinning gear for spring. No kidding. It is so effective. And the numbers that we get up here are incredible. While we do still have shots at fish in that upper 30 to 40 inch range, we get insane numbers of fish in that, you know, 30 to 34 inch range. An average day I, I would say has gotta be, you know, close to 30 interactions with pike. Matt (7m 44s): You know, whether they’re hits or fish on or fish lost with muskie a good day seeing one, you know, so you know, these pike, they’re a great way to dive into warm water, fly fishing, but also just fishing for predator fish in general. Dave (7m 58s): Yeah. And that’s always the question always seems like from somebody in the outside, and I’m hoping to, to get up and do more, you know, fishing in your neck of the woods, but you know, you got pike, you got muskie, it seems like pike would be the obvious choice, you know? Oh yeah. Like, like why is the, is the musky just because we, we like the pain and, and it’s like how, how are they different? What is the biggest difference other than one’s harder to catch? Matt (8m 19s): Yeah, that’s the biggest thing is, is they’re harder to catch because of their population’s lower. They have a larger home range even in lakes that don’t get much pressure. Like I cut my teeth guiding for Musky on Lake of the Woods in northwestern Ontario when I was in college. And that lake between there and another lake up there called La Sewell or Eagle Lake. Those lakes are absolutely full of Musky, but like a good day is still one in the boat. Right. And they’re as full as possible. Those lakes don’t receive the pressure and those fish are still spread out pike. They seem to be a little bit more comfortable with competition, which is also a problem when pike get into lakes that are predominantly dominated by Muskie Pike can overt or outcompete muskie and actually drive the population to be non-existent. Matt (9m 6s): We’re seeing that on some of our inland bodies of water that never traditionally had pike, which since our lakes have been connected with like lock systems, pike have migrated into some of them. And the downfall is, you know, we’re seeing less muskie, but now we’re also seeing the hybrids, the tiger muskie, which is kind of cool. So it’s tough, but yeah. Why, why are they different? Who knows? Yeah. Dave (9m 28s): Wow. So you’re seeing Tiger Muskie, like just na naturally they’re spawning in the wild. Matt (9m 33s): Yeah, yeah. We don’t stalk ’em here. They’re natural reproducing tigers. Oh wow. And we got two of them last year, which was cool. Dave (9m 40s): What do they look like? It’s a mix between a straight mix between a muskie and a, and a pike and Matt (9m 45s): A northern. Yeah. So think of, it’s very similar, but think of the markings on a tiger trout, but on a muskie, those wiggly, you know, those wiggly lines down the side, the muskie are green with like a dark green barring. They have the tail of a pike. So the tips of the tails and all the fins are rounded instead of a sharp oh, like sharp angle, like a sharp 90 or 45 degree. They’re all rounded over, they’re supposed to be sterile. I’ve heard mixed reviews on that, that they, they, the, the wild ones can also continue to spawn depending on who you talk to, I’m not sure. But they’re just, they’re cool fish. And there are lakes like, you know, where I live on Georgian Bay, like Musky fishing is, is a major part of our local like attraction. Matt (10m 28s): Especially in the fall. They get people up here coming from Musky when they they’re, but they’re like, it’s a huge lake. So the muske and pike have tons of room and they occupy different niches. That’s something I should say why they’re different too is is Pike are, you know, in the fly fishing world known as a warm water fish, but technically like they’re cold water fish. My optimal temperature range in Fahrenheit for these fish is 50 like to 60 degrees. So cold water. And that’s when they’re shallow. We’re talking like one to three feet of water. As it gets warmer, they’re going deep like they can, we’ve caught, we’ve caught pike out, you know, lake trout fishing in the summer, like jigging in like 80, 90 feet of water and you’re not targeting them, but like, it, it, they’re down there muskie, those fish have a much larger temperature range. Matt (11m 12s): And in the summer, like the upper limit I would say to ethically target them is in that upper 70 degree window and then shut it off once you get really close to 80 or or above 80, like, you know, leave Malone or go find colder water. The great thing about Ontario is a lot of our lakes and rivers don’t break 80 so you can fish for ’em all summer. When I’ve got friends that guide down the states and Virginia that have to, you know, cut off their season once June rolls around till end of September, they don’t fish for Musky ’cause water temperas are too high. We’ve got a season here that opens up either 1st of June or the third week in June and runs all the way till December. And you can pretty much ethically target them anytime year in that time range, which is cool. Matt (11m 54s): So those muskie will be right up in the shallow weeds all summer. The big mamas, those big females, they might be out and depending on the lake and the forage base out deep chasing white fish and Ciscos with the pike. But the, you know, there are a large portion of those fish that do love to live up in the cattails, in the reeds eating, muskrats, eating, you know, eating ducklings, stuff like that. So it’s, they’re really, they’re really cool fish. But pike are definitely more user friendly for any angler. Like, yeah, I’ve cut lots of muskie on gear and, and on and on fly, but pikes still get me so excited because you can go out pike fishing and have fun, like you’re gonna get awesome eats at the boat side. Matt (12m 37s): You’re gonna have explosive hard hits far out on a cast. They can get big, they can get 20 pounds or more and you never know, like, one thing I always try to tell my guests is a pike doesn’t know if it’s 28 inches or 40 inches, it’s gonna hit your fly so hard and it’s gonna take your fly deep every time. It just, it doesn’t know how big it is or how small it is, it’s just aggressive and it’s gonna leave you having a great time. So I highly recommend Pike for anybody that’s looking to get into, like if you love streamer fishing for brown trout, there’s no way you’re not gonna love stream or fishing for Pike. It’s just so addicting. Dave (13m 11s): That’s perfect. And, and you had mentioned a co a little bit on the timing, so if somebody was looking out to, you know, book some time with you, you’re saying it, it kinda starts in the spring or what is the best time on on this? Matt (13m 21s): Sure, yeah, yeah. Spring is optimal. So I’m looking, most of our areas here that eye guides open up on May 1st. We have very strict fishing seasons in, in Ontario or a lot in Canada in general. Yeah. So we can’t fish for them. Basically our ice fishing season stops March 1st on Georgian Bay. It starts again on May 1st and then May 1st until the end of March I can fish for them. But that time of year where they’re gonna be most accessible to a fly angler is gonna be May and then maybe the first week or 2nd of June if the temperatures stay Dave (13m 54s): Low. And is that just because the temperatures, because eventually the summer gets a little too warm, they go deeper. Matt (13m 59s): You got it. Yeah. So they, they typically spawn at the ice out or just while there’s still ice on the lake and they’re running up like the local, like estuaries, river mills, weedy bays and doing their spawn. So by May 1st they’re completely done their spawn and they’re back feeding. So our areas when, when you see fishing seasons in Ontario, it’s they’re, they’re trying to close them down during spawns. So we just don’t have the ability. There are some lakes where they’re considered invasive and they’re open all year, like I was talking about with Muskie. But the bigger, more successful bodies of water I guide are, are open on May 1st and they’re up shallow, like we’re first week of May, it’s not uncommon to catch some of our biggest fish of the year in less than two feet of water. Matt (14m 43s): You know, sitting out on sandy bottom bays sunbathing, just trying to warm up the main lake. Water temperature might be 42, 43 degrees and then the back bays could be in those fifties and those fish are just in their sunbathing and they’re not in their feeding. Like a lot of people think they’re gonna go up shallow and feed. If you go into these bays, very rarely are you gonna see a lot of bait fish and a lot of fish in there for them to eat. But what they’re doing is increasing their metabolism to head back out and feed. So as they warm up cold-blooded creature, right, they’re gonna sun warm up and when that fly comes across their nose, they just can’t say no. Right. It’s right. It’s like, oh cool, there is food here and they tank it and pike fishing on the fly is fun, but sight fishing for pike on the fly, that’s just a whole other level. Matt (15m 28s): Seeing your fish, making your cast, watching them explode on it, it’s wow, it just gets, I’m talking about it right now and I’m just like, can I fast forward through the next two months? Dave (15m 37s): Yeah, so that’s gonna be, so sight fishing is the, and that happens may, June. Matt (15m 41s): Yeah, and it’s, yeah, definitely may. And then as the month progresses through May and those water temperatures, there’s a magic number I find, and that’s 60 degrees. They move out of the shallows and they go into those first drop offs and weed lines. So they might be in like seven to 10 feet of water and holding right on the edges of those bays near, you know, some main lake structure. So where like a, a rocky point comes out and, and basically they’re just sitting on those weed lines waiting for food and it all comes down to where they’re comfortable water temperature wise. So they’re gonna try and find that cold water where there’s still food available. So they start moving out. That’s when we start switching from, you know, early spring in, in May we’re we’re using floating lines, maybe intermediate lines, but by mid to end of May, we’re already down fishing type three lines, type five lines, just getting a little deeper and also increasing the size of our flies. Matt (16m 30s): A lot of people see pipe flies and they think, oh, I gotta use these, you know, 10 inch flies with like wiggle tails and all these kind of cool stuff. While those do work in the early season, these fish are cold, metabolism is low. Also the bait fish that are around are also slightly smaller as it’s beginning of the year. Like the ba the young perch might only be three or four inches long. So we’re typically fishing flies that are four to five inches that first week and every week we almost add like an inch. Oh, okay. As we go towards June and then, and then they get really hard on the fly once, you know, early to mid-June hits, they go out into 20 plus feet of water and it’s, it’s time to target other fish For me. Matt (17m 11s): Really, it’s muskie opens and I, I got like all the cool prehistoric fish like boan and guard that we do. Oh, huge season on and then muskie and then bass opens and it’s just like, it just continuously rolls until September. Dave (17m 23s): It’s a free for all. Matt (17m 24s): Oh yeah. And then the fish come right back, the pipe come right back up in September and do the same thing all over again. So it’s super addictive. Dave (17m 31s): Wow. So in September, once the water’s cool again, then they come back to the shop for the same reason, just to warm up again. Yeah, kind Matt (17m 38s): Of. Yeah. That they’d be like in those late may spots. So weed lines, near rocks, maybe not right up in two feet of water, but adjacent to spawning locations. And they’ll spend their winter in those bays or close to those bays feeding up for the spawn when they, again spawn at ice out when they’re right up in the shallows, you know, a foot of water or less. Wow. It’s pretty cool. It’s a, it’s a, the great thing about Ontario, no matter when you come here, there’s always some cool fish to fish for. And as you go further north in Ontario, like I, I take a week off every year to go on a fishing trip with my dad and one of my best friends. And we go pike fishing up in an area called Lake Ngan, which is like Thunder Bay, like it’s way up Dave (18m 18s): There. Is that like an hour from the Georgian Bay? Matt (18m 22s): No, it’s like, so from where I live, it’s 14 hours north. Oh, Dave (18m 26s): Way Matt (18m 26s): Up there. Yeah, it’s a drive, but it’s on Lake North end of Lake Superior. Okay. So way up there. Anyways, it’s, it’s incredible. But we go in the summer and the water’s still cold, water’s still in the fifties, so ideal temperature. And those fish are still in like five to seven feet of water. Right. Those big pi, we’re talking like huge pike at that point. Like these fish are averaging 35 to 36 inches and our biggest one this past year was 45 inches. And you know, I think we broke 20 over 40 inches in like four days of fishing this year. It was crazy for the rest year ever. But yeah, just, you know, even if you come up in the middle of summer, whether, you know, if you’re, if it’s too warm for where I am, you can always head north. And there’s so many lodges in Ontario where like pike are available all year. Matt (19m 10s): We have like an insane amount of fishing lodges in Ontario. It’s crazy just due to how many, how many bodies of water we have. So as you go north of let’s say likes St. Marie, that’s when you get what I would consider Northern Ontario. You can fish for big pike, shallow all year. Dave (19m 27s): Pescador on the fly offers a full range of fly fishing gear for any angler and any budget with premium rods delivered directly to you. This saves you money by eliminating the middleman markup. The L ray G six is the most packable high performance fly rod on the market, performing like a four section rod. But with unmatched portability, never fly without your G six. Discover the l ray series and more at pescador on the fly.com. Trout Routes is the most comprehensive mapping app for trout anglers with over 50,000 trout streams, 350,000 access points, public land maps and more trout routes is the number one resource for navigating, researching and exploring trout streams. Dave (20m 9s): You can download trout routes for free in the app store today. Just search for trout routes on your phone and take your exploration to the next level. That’s trout routes. T-R-O-U-T-R-O-U-T-E-S. So when you’re on, let’s just take it early in the season, you’re talk about that site fishing. What, first of all, how are you getting there? What, what’s the, you know, boat you’re using? Yeah, Matt (20m 33s): So I guide out of an 18 foot Lund Deep, the fishing boat. It’s kind of perfect for the bigger lakes that I got on just due to the size of the swell and waves that can kick up. So it’s not like a, you know, a low sided john boat or bass boat. It’s not flat sided, it’s still got pretty low draft. I think I can get into, you know, a foot of water without hitting bottom, you know, and at that point, if we’re going shallower, I’ve been known to get out and just drag the boat slowly instead of kicking up weeds with the trolling motor or, or use my push pull. Like I’ve, I’ve got a push pull as well to pull you through the, the, the flats. But yeah, it’s, it’s got all the updated electronics. So you know, the, the min coda motor with like spot lock, it’s all GPS connected. Matt (21m 14s): I have like the, the Garmin live scope, so we’re like Dave (21m 17s): Fishing. So this is like the game, this is like the gamify. This is, is this the sort of thing, we’ve talked a little bit about this, I’ve never seen it, but we you’re, it’s almost like you’re on a video game, you can just see the fish. It Matt (21m 25s): Can, yeah, it can be, yeah. It’s for like, for deeper water fish. Like if we’re targeting piped later in the season, so talking like that June timeframe, we can go off of weed edges and drop down the, you know, the transducer on the live scope and look forward comfortably 60 to 70 feet in front of the boat in our lake. Just due to the amount of sediment in the water. It, it, it starts to get a lot of interference if we go try to go further than that, but we can kind of scan weed lines and actually spot fish before we even make casts. Dave (21m 51s): And how, well when you look at those, can you do, what does the fish look like when you’re on the Matt (21m 55s): Endoscope? It looks, it looks like a pike really. It is literally the shape. Dave (21m 59s): It’s not just a blurry, it’s a, it’s real clear. Matt (22m 2s): Yeah. The technology has come so far in such a short period of time. You know, I can tell, you know, most of the time I can tell species or at least like body types apart, so like pike and Muskie, they look the same. I can tell, you know, a walleye looks different than a small mouth and a small mouth and a carp kind of look the same. It’s pretty neat. But yeah, so I have all, you know, coming from like, you know, the traditional fishing guide here was a conventional guide with all the electronics. You can’t be, I don’t want holding yourself back by not acknowledging what’s out there. So even for fly fishing, like it’s so useful. We’ve had, you know, guide days for Muskie where I’ve watched someone cast a Buford and I find it with the live scope and, and we’re watching that fly from 60 feet away and all of a sudden we see a muskie following it at 60 feet away and we can see it on the screen, you know, and we’ve been able to turn those fish into biters before they even get back to the boat just due to now being able to sight fish. Dave (22m 58s): And so you can see your fly as well, you can see your fly on as Matt (23m 1s): Well. Yeah. Yeah. It’s pretty wild. Some flies better than others, but like musky fly show up perfectly fine if you’re using like a wooly bugger will not show up. But if you use like a clouser with lead eyes, it shows up no problem. So it’s pretty cool, cool technology and it, it’s incredibly useful for the small mouth fishery that I have here. Often our small mouth, I mean we’re talking pike, but often our small mouth are, are suspended over deep water. There’s been some really cool learnings that I’ve had this year where, you know, I’m pounding a shoreline with some guests and we’re catching some bass off, some rock piles and I just sweep out behind the boat looking out into the mid lake, let’s say 70 or 80 feet of water and there’s bass schooled up 10 feet below the surface just behind us chasing bait and we never would’ve seen them. Matt (23m 45s): And you throw your clouder over there and you know, you’re getting double headers. It’s so crazy. Like those fish have never seen a presentation just throwing out into the middle of a lake. You know, it’s pretty unique or not unique, it’s just, it’s it’s really cool what we’ve learned from it from fish behavior. So yeah, that’s kind of the outfit that I run. I got room for two fly anglers. I can get three flying anglers on there if people are comfortable taking turns, you know, just switching out every fish type thing. And it’s a, it’s a blast because we can get into these shallow back bays. It’s an aluminum boat. I’m not worried about, you know, dragging it off of a rock slowly or bumping it off shore lines. Yeah. Dave (24m 21s): How do you get into the back bays? How do you get into the really shallow stuff? Yeah, Matt (24m 25s): That’s where, that’s where like, you know, we got across open expanses of water. Like Georgian bay’s huge. It’s, it’s hard to fathom until you’ve been here. It can be a sea. Like at times if I’m looking at weather and I see winds that are like 15 miles an hour or more, I’m like telling people it’s getting kind of windy and that’s not even that windy. Right, right. It’s just so big that it gets a serious swell, it gets a ground swell almost coming in. So you’re getting four or five foot, you know, rollers coming through the bay. So that’s where having a boat like I’ve got with the high sides, you can go slow, you know, you’re not gonna be going 40 miles an hour but you, you can comfortably clip around it like 10 miles an hour and get through those waves and get over to where it’s sheltered. And the great thing about these, about Georgian base, esp, especially where I guide in in the 30,000 island region, is the amount of back days, like I say, 30,000 islands. Matt (25m 13s): And that’s legitimate. That’s a estimate. And if the water drops a foot, you probably got another 30,000 more the amount of protection that you have by looking at wind direction. And that’s, we’re hiring someone that’s on the water all the time. We’ll be able to like, you know, adjust day of and be like, actually, you know, meet me at this boat launch because we can, you know, we’re protected on this side of the bay the whole time and you know, it might be windy, it might be blowing 20, but this side of the bay is gonna be completely sheltered and we’ll be, we’ll be fine all day. It’s, yeah, you just, you’re, you take your boat, you rip over to them. It’s, I’m not afraid of burning gas. Like there’s times on our days where I’m running an hour at 40 miles plus an hour to start the day. Matt (25m 54s): Like it’s big, you know, and we’ll, we’ll fish our butts off for seven or eight hours and then run that hour back. Dave (25m 59s): Huh? Is that what it takes to drive? If you were go lengthwise across Geor and Bay, what does that take at 40, 40 miles? Matt (26m 6s): I couldn’t do it. It’s over a million acres. Like I would need multiple stops. Dave (26m 9s): Oh no kidding. You couldn’t, you wouldn’t have enough gas to make it across Geor and Bay. Matt (26m 14s): Yeah, I can like where I literally, if you look on a map, it’s on the southeast corner called Severn Sound and you can go across, like I can go across, it’s probably if I’m at full speed, I can go from where I launch in Midland over to a town called Honey Harbor in about 25 minutes at full speed. Oh Dave (26m 30s): Okay. Yeah you can, Matt (26m 30s): Yeah but like that’s a small portion of the bay. Like Georgian Bay itself is as wide as Lake Ontario, like as wide as Lake Ontario is from Toronto to New York. Like it’s huge. So yeah, I I, you know, I wouldn’t do it. It it’s wide open. It’d be dangerous. There’d be no way. I mean if you get the right day, I guess you could and you brought extra gas. But you know, you just, the great thing is you just adjust your launch location. I have so many launches and if I, I show people my map at the beginning of the day with like even just on my phone on my, you know, my Google Maps pins and I’m like, well where do you wanna go? And they just have a laugh ’cause there’s just literally thousands of proven bays where I’ve caught pike. Dave (27m 10s): Can you go from Georgia and Bay and in the boat cross out into Lake Huron and go over to to Detroit? Sure, Matt (27m 16s): Yeah. If you wanted to, you could. A lot of people do. We get a lot of people that you come from the states come up for the summer, you know, take their bigger, you know, sailboats or mini yachts and come up and spend time and just drive they the whole Great Lakes network. They do. Yeah. And then we even have something called the Trent s Waterway, which connects Georgian Bay to Lake Ontario. Dave (27m 36s): Oh no kidding. Like Matt (27m 37s): Through inland. Okay. Inland ways and smaller lakes. And that takes a lot of people like eight or nine days to complete. It’s pretty cool. A lot of our lakes are interconnected. They Dave (27m 45s): Are like Lake isn’t, is Lake Michigan connected to Lake Huron to, could you go? Matt (27m 49s): Oh yeah. The Great Lakes are all connected. Yeah. Every one of them, right? They’re, they’re basically one big river system basically. Yeah. Yeah. It all flows down to, you know, lake Ontario and out of the St. Lawrence, right. Yeah. So yeah, it’s a big system. Dave (28m 2s): So yeah. So let’s take it back to, you know, a shallow bay and you’ve got, you know, early it’s in may talk about that. So you got the boat pulled in there. Maybe describe what it looks like to, you know, how are you getting into these fish? Sure. Is it easy, is it hard? What’s that look like? Matt (28m 16s): Sure. Yeah. So if we’re gonna start right from the kind of the beginning, you’re saying like getting into these bays, it all starts with a bit of prep, right? So you’re gonna wanna utilize the tools that are available to you in, in today’s world, not only do we have, you know, bathymetric charts like paper maps that you can use to find these bays. You also have it right in the palm of your hand, right? With like Google maps, I mentioned that earlier. It’s one of my biggest tools for locating new Spring Pike spots. You know, this time of year I’m just cruising maps and I’m just dropping potential way points just to check out. In the spring what I’m looking for is a, is a, is either one of two bays, one, if it’s a regular year where it’s really cold winter and we’ve got lots of water in the spring, I’m looking for those big bays. Matt (28m 59s): They might be a hundred acres, right? They’re huge and you could spend a whole day fishing those bays. But what that’s gonna do is draw the largest population of fish into those bays. More spawning room, more food, more cover, just perfect. And the way to make that even better is if it’s a shallow bay that’s quite warm with a river mouth or two that’s coming in. So whether it’s, it doesn’t have to be a big river, I’m talking rivers that might be five, six feet wide, just some current and some flow that will encourage these fish to come into, ’cause a lot of ’em spawn in river modes. So we’re gonna look for those areas. Bays that are facing south are a great option. A little bit more sun that time of year warming up the back corners, which is nice. Matt (29m 41s): And then the biggest thing is finding the right kind of weed, the white right kind of cover. So it’s no secret that pike glove cover and like weeds, they’re a lion weight predator, an ambush predator, right? They don’t particularly like swimming open expanses of water and looking for schooling bait fish. They wanna sit next to some logs or into a weed bed and wait for an injured bait fish to swim over their head and attack. So pike and muskie are the fastest freshwater fish on the strike in the world, which is crazy but it’s for a short period of time it’s only for like, I can’t remember the exact, it’s insane amount of speed but it’s for like a meter or two, right? Like it’s just explosive energy where they come up from underneath and inhale, wow, inhale and, and they, they do a big, you know, they eat and they turn their body 180 degrees and you just see this big like circle in the water boil, right as we call it. Matt (30m 32s): So they live in their in and they’re waiting to attack from the bottom. And that’s really important in your fly line selection and your fly selection. You do not want to fish underneath these fish with like small mouth. You know, you’re dragging crayfish off the rocks, you’re dragging goby flies off the rocks ’cause they’re down there picking apart. The bottom pike are if they’re, if you look at them the way their eyes are oriented similar to a trout, they’re on that upper portion of their head and they’re looking up just like you wouldn’t, you know, euro nph underneath fish, you want to get above them. Same thing with pike. Keep those flies above them, 2, 3, 4 feet above them, they’re gonna close that distance no time. So we’re looking for those big bays. A lot of people and and myself even, even then probably 10 years ago I was so attracted to those back sections of the bays right away at the early season like oh that’s the warmest water, that’s where they’re gonna be. Matt (31m 20s): And you know what, probably 80 to 90% of the fish will be there, but the average size will be quite a bit smaller. Those will a lot of the time on opening day, if you go right into the back, you’re probably gonna have those 20, 30 fish days or more. But a lot of them might be 24 to 30 inches or less. Like they’re those male fish that are leftover, that are hungry. There’s the odd big one up in there still. But don’t ignore the mouths of the base. Find that first drop off and fish your way from the mouth to the back. Don’t start at the back and work your way to the mouth, which is what I used to do. I find if I want to get into bigger fish, like it depends on my, on my guests. Like if they’re stoked on just catching a lot of fish, we’re gonna go right into those back corners and we’re just gonna fish, you know, three, four feet of water with unweighted flies, unw and maybe a intermediate line and and just catch a lot of fish. Matt (32m 10s): But if people are like, yeah I’ve caught pike, I really enjoy pike but I really want to try to catch my first 40 here. We’re gonna be fishing that deeper water, not super deep, seven to 10 feet and we’re gonna fish type three lines, type five lines just to get the fly gown a little bit. And the fly still might only be two or three feet below the surface. One of my, I don’t wanna say that it’s a rule but it’s kind of my goal is in the spring I always wanna see the fly. I wanna see that fly coming back to the boat. You know, you don’t wanna be dredge and bottom like I said. So if we can keep that fly two to three feet below the surface and the water here is really clear, you know, and use a fly that you can see. So that’s really important too. I don’t use a lot of natural tones. Matt (32m 50s): I use a lot of whites and yellows or funny enough bright pink. Yeah pink flies that I can see. It seems to work better. It’s almost like it looks a little different. And one thing you always have to remember in in, in fly design, especially for pike and muskie when you’re fishing above their heads, every fish, every bait fish or predator fish even in our area has a white belly. So using something that’s a light colored fly, it’s above their heads. They don’t see the back of it, they don’t care. My best fly last year was a five inch white polar changer, all white made with polar fiber and chocolates, filler flash, really easy fly to see and it absolutely crushed and it’s just white. There’s no bait fish here that’s completely white. Matt (33m 32s): But the great thing is with a white belly or a white fly, it could be a perch, it could be a baby pike, it could be a smelt, it could be a Cisco, gotcha, it could be a bass and the pike just see movement and it comes down to the strip as well. So you know, we’re starting on the outside, we’ve got the fly, we’ve got the right line, we’re working our way back. What’s really important is how you strip your fly. I think that’s really what I work on the most throughout the day is how to show the fish the fly properly. And I would say 90% of our fish come on the paws. They don’t come on the actual strip. Very rarely you’re mid strip and you get a strike. It’s you know, whether we’re site fishing for these fish or we’re in deeper water and we can see our fly, we’re looking for the strike like we’re gonna see the strike every time, which is so addictive. Matt (34m 17s): Every time you see a swirl, every time you see a flash it’s awesome. Jeez. We’re gonna be stripping with like depending on the fly, if it’s a game changer, shorter wrap, more quick strips that have like a half second pause between strips and that fly. It’ll give it that one second to just kind of hang up and kind of just start to sink a little bit. Looking like that injured bait fish, if we’re using a fly, like a yard sale, which is another one of my best flies for pike, it’s gonna be a bit of a longer strip but with like a strip to a kick, you know you’ll have that last three or four inches of your strip be like a harder quicker kick and that’ll cause the fly to walk left and right and that fly design, a lot of pipe flies have like large heads, same with musky flies to push a lot of water but to cause the fly to kick out left and right and look more like an injured bait fish instead of just coming straight through the water. Matt (35m 4s): These fisher really dialed into hitting injured bait fish. They’re not looking for a hard meal, they don’t wanna chase something down, they wanna like pounce on something that’s barely getting by. In fact, my flies do better after they’ve caught about a hundred pike, you know, they start getting shredded. How Dave (35m 21s): Do you make that original fly? How do you make it look? Are you tying it to make it look wounded and the way you strip or how do you make it look wounded? Matt (35m 28s): It’s definitely, yeah it’s a combination, right? So like those large heads that push a lot of water and then the strip where you have those like, well depending on the fly design area it really comes down. But like a game changer, like a more rapid one foot strip seems to work better but with like a half second pause between strips and 90% of the fish will come on that half second pause. The great thing about it is they eat flies really well. So pike or muskie, even bass to a degree are are like suction feeders. So like they come up behind something or beside it and open their mouth and that rapid opening of the mouth creates negative pressure and pulls the fly or lure into their face. The benefit of a fly is it’s so supple, right? Matt (36m 9s): It’s neutrally buoyant most of the time I don’t use weighted flies ’cause we use a weighted line to get them down and when they open their mouth that fly just goes way back. Like it’s very positive eats most of the time you hook up. The big thing is though is to ensure that, or the great thing about that stripping technique is everything’s a strip set. So if you, you know, try to coax yourself into reducing trout sets, which is definitely something you want to do. If you make your strip hard enough that every strip to action your fly is also powerful enough to set the hook. Oh cool. So it doesn’t have to be like long to do a strip set, it just has to be fast and shark. So that, and then that pause is when they’ll eat and then you’ll just go into another strip instinctively thinking you’re moving your fly and you’ve got a fish on. Matt (36m 50s): The big thing with that though is ’cause they take the fly so well and pike come in all sizes, right Muskie they do as well but they seem to start at like 30 inches or or bigger like 35 and go up Pike can be like, you know, 20 inches and taking a six or seven inch fly. Like they’re, and while that’s, while that’s fun, it, it is also you’ve gotta be ready to remove hooks that are deep. Like they’ll take an eight inch fly, a 20 inch fish down the throat. So the biggest thing with pipe flies is typically I don’t run tandem hooks, I just run one hook in the head. If I miss a few fish a day because of it, it’s totally worth it. And then a lot of the time we run Barbless ’cause it’s easier to remove them and like we talked about Lake GaN briefly, it’s entirely barbless hook, fishery, single hook and like we’re targeting these large pike and we don’t miss them. Matt (37m 40s): Like we, we might lose a couple of fish a week because of Barbs, but that’s probably more ’cause of a bad, bad hook set, right? Like that’s really bad hook set and low pressure. That’s really what it comes down to. Barbs, you know, don’t hook the fish, they hold the fish when you make a mistake, right? Yeah exactly. Keep ’em tight and you’re good to go. The big thing with anything that I have to make sure everybody’s like I get a lot of messages like maybe they don’t live near me and they want to know what we’re doing to catch pike. I try to reiterate how important it’s to have the right release tools and be prepared for large fish. Like don’t go out with your bass net or your trout net thinking that that’s gonna be enough. If you for you know, for Pike and for your average 30 inch pike, you know a steelhead net that we use here would probably enough, but there are possibilities that you hook into 40 plus inch fish when you want to have a net that’s big enough to hold that fish comfortably in the water, right? Matt (38m 29s): These are big fish, they’re very aggressive but they’re big babies, right? Yeah. Like you hook ’em, ’em wrong, you keep ’em outta the water for a little too long, they don’t release well. So you gotta make sure you do everything you can to keep ’em wet. Dave (38m 42s): Well what’s the net you use? Do you have like a name, a type of net or what? Matt (38m 45s): What’s the name? I’ve got a couple of them. Dave (38m 47s): How big is it bigger than a steelhead net? Matt (38m 49s): Oh yeah, my net’s much bigger than a steelhead net. Yeah, my pike net is 34 inches across and like 36 inches long and the bag depth like my 4-year-old can stand in it and it’s like way over his head, right? Like it’s a, that’s big a deep bag so that when you net them you can leave ’em in the water, right? Because you’re in a boat, keep in mind like you’re not in a river where you’re just gonna put the net between your legs and keep ’em wet, the frame of the net’s gonna go on the gunnel and the fish is gonna sit in the water while you take the hook out. Yeah. So, and then my muskie net’s bigger than that. It’s, it’s one I have is from Fred Bill, it’s called the Big Kahuna. I think it’s like 38 inches long or 40 inches long. Like it’s just huge. But that’s ’cause these fish can get over 50 inches, right? Matt (39m 31s): You wanna make sure you’re ready to go with the big fish but the bag and then you have to have the right tools. So in my boat I have three sets of tools because things go wrong. I have three sets of jaw spreaders, three sets of cutters, whether they’re side cutters or bolt cutters and then three pairs of pliers on a minimum. These are fish they don’t wanna mess around with and unhook just with your fingers, like have a pair of long needle load pliers, they’ve got a lot of teeth, you know, you wanna make sure you’re avoiding injury to yourself as much as possible. You know I’ve got lots of scars on my hands and from pike and Muskie and while I wear them with a badge of honor, I do try to reduce the amount of injuries I get. They can get kind of nasty quick. So jaw spreaders are a big, big important tool because I mentioned how deep they can take the flies. Matt (40m 16s): Lures, they don’t seem to take as deep, you know, if you’re conventional fishing just because they’re hard, right? They open their mouth and they go to suck ’em in and like if it’s a jerk bait it just hits them in the mouth A fly just crumples, right? It’s all bucktail and craft fur and hackles. So it just crumples and goes right into the darkest part of their throat. Ah, which makes for positive hook sets, but a little harder to get out. So make sure you got the right tools for releasing as well. You gotta protect these big fish. You know there’s, we catch probably, you know, approaching a thousand pike in a month and of that maybe 20 or 30 of them are those big fish that are those 40, you know, upper mid thirties to upper to 40 inch fish, right? Yeah. So we don’t wanna be killing those fish, you know, they’re, no, they’re important. Dave (40m 59s): Trout routes is the most comprehensive mapping app for trout anglers. With over 50,000 trout streams, 350,000 access points, public land maps and more trout routes is the number one resource for navigating, researching and exploring trout streams. And it deserves a place in every anglers toolkit. I was in New York fishing recently, my first time in New York fishing. I had the trout routes app and I was able to check out and access public access points through the maze of private property on the rivers we were fishing. And after I got into the stream and was fishing down through a run, I wasn’t quite sure I saw a house down below. I wasn’t quite sure where the property lines ended, but given that I had trout routes, I was confident where I was fishing and I was able to assure that I wasn’t trespassing. Dave (41m 47s): You’ll be fully prepared with offline maps. You can get driving directions to points of interest, drop pins, add your notes in the app all while keeping all of your data private to your account. Only you can visit trout routes.com right now to learn more and download the Trout routes app for free in the app store today. That’s trout routes. T-R-O-U-T-R-O-U-T-E-S start exploring today. How old are those fish? The say the bigger 30, 40 inch pike? Matt (42m 20s): The, what I’ve heard from doing a little bit of research myself is they can, you know, in the wild reach ages of like 20 to 25 years old, so quite old, you know, similar in age to what our, our small mouth can get even older. Small mouth can get a little bit older, but they’re not like a trout that, you know, an old brown trout is like eight, nine years old, right? Yeah. They live a long time, you know, and, and it’s, you wanna get, you know, do best buy them. And don’t get me wrong, like people fish for pike because they also taste good. So like there’s a lot of oh they do catch, there’s a lot of catch and keep and if you’re ethical around how you, but there’s no shortage of Pike gear. Like we’ve got a great, great pike fishery and if you’re catching fish in that like 27 inch range, they’re fantastic eating. Matt (43m 0s): Like I’m not gonna, you know, very rarely do we talk about that in fly fishing, but they are fantastic evening. Just make sure you’re not taking home those big mamas, like the big females that are 40 inches. Those are fish you wanna see. Go back. Dave (43m 11s): Yeah. Well what’s your limit? What would be the best, if you’re gonna take a pike, what would be the best length? Matt (43m 16s): The very oh the, the very few people that want to take one with me, I try to limit the maximum is like 28 to 30 inches. That’s as big as we’re gonna go. My lake. So Georgian Bay, there’s a limit. It, I don’t ever keep a limit so I’ve gotta bear with me here while I try to yeah. Remember it. It’s right, I think it’s one over 27 inches and three under. I think that’s the rule. I think you’re allowed four, but three of them have to be less than 27 inches and one of them can be bigger. I think that’s, or it’s like zero between 27 and 35, something like that. Yeah, there’s zero between 27 and 35, you’re allowed to have one over 35 and three under or four under fish, four fish under 27 inches. Gotcha. I never keep a limit if people want to keep one, the rule with it is it’s gotta be injured, like it’s gotta be bleeding. Matt (44m 1s): We’re not keeping a healthy fish that we’re gonna be able to release. I think last year we kept four fish and I mean I, I guided for them like 40 times. So it’s like, okay, that one’s really bleeding, like it’s not gonna live. Let’s you know, have you ever eaten pike? I’ll show you how to clean it, right? Dave (44m 15s): Like right. Wow. So that’s it. So that’s, so, and you mentioned the bay, so going back to that a little bit on the bay. So you just go to go, you could go to Google map and just look at an inlet like what are the bays look like on Google Maps? What are you looking for? Matt (44m 28s): Yeah, yeah, great question. So you’re looking for, and especially on Georgia Bay, the water’s so clear that you can actually see under the water quite a bit just with satellite imagery. So you’re just looking for those bays that are, you know, large bays with the river flowing in adjacent to deep water. You know, maybe there’s 70, 80 feet of water close by and that’s gonna be kind of their home range. Like they’ll spend the summers out in that deep water, move back up into the shallows. Combine that with, if you, if you, if you want to get the most up-to-date, like detailed bathymetric charts, you can download the, I think it’s the Garmin active captain or the Navi system on your phone and you can actually overlay the data. So like you can look at both when it’s on your computer or whatever. Matt (45m 10s): And you can see a depth chart while looking at an aerial image. And you’re gonna wanna look for bays that have a large, if you get a, put it this way, if you get a summer image of that bay, which is hard to do, sometimes you get stuck with winter images and it’s frozen, you can’t really see. But if you get a summer image, you should be able to see a large amount of like pencil reeds or wild rice that grows out into the bay. And in May that stuff’s not there. It’s just emergent grass. But that’s where they spawn. So like you wanna Okay. Try to find those. I’m Dave (45m 37s): Looking at one and just, just to look, I’m looking at Georgia Bay and on the north side there’s this one called Bullhead Bay. Yeah. And it’s, there’s a little, looks like there’s a little creek coming in, a little bay that, so that, that would be one example. Matt (45m 48s): Yeah, totally. Yeah, exactly. You know, you can look at any of those bays and if you look closer to the town of Midland, like Midland, Ontario, and look over into like Sturgeon Bay, for instance, by Wab machine, it’s a huge bay. It’s like a hundred acres and it’s like five to seven feet deep, the whole bay. And that’s what we’re looking for. And we’re looking for like that, there’s a very specific weed we, we often call cabbage weed. It’s broad leafed, it’s grows sparse. Like that’s important too for big fish. Like we don’t want to have such dense weed that those big fish can’t move around comfortably. If you get into the, the thick stuff, often hydrilla is a common weed, like coontail is the common name. Matt (46m 28s): Or you get into the, the, there’s a bunch of invasive weeds too that we’re currently dealing with here. It gets so thick, that small pike, you know, those 20 to 30 inch fish can still totally, you know, move around in it. But those big fish like to be able to hide and move freely and attack. And cabbage is gonna be your best friend. So it often grows sparse, like maybe one weed every 10 feet, or in clumps where there might be a dense clump of cabbage and then nothing else around it. And those pike will just sit on those edges and wait. And, and if you come up with me, like, well I’ll, you know, I’ll be able to point it out and show you what you’re looking for. Yeah. You see it. But the one that we always look for often nicknamed tobacco, cabbage, it looks like tobacco leaf. Matt (47m 9s): It’s big, broad, it’s kind of browny red and it grows in dense clumps. And that’s like spring big fish territory. Like you could find those clumps fish around them. It comes up pretty early here. ’cause we’re pretty far south, right? Like Yeah. People think of Canada as north, but like just north of Toronto. We’re, we’re south of a lot of the states, right? Like Yeah, we’re, the peninsula comes way down in Ontario and it, we’re quite a bit further south I think, actually. I don’t know exactly where we’d be level with, but yeah, we’re like Michigan, like southern Michigan kinda level. Dave (47m 40s): Yeah. You’re level with Exactly. You got your Michigan, Vermont. Yes. Yes. Yeah, you’re below, like I look, I look across upper states. You’re below Montana, you’re lower than Montana, right? Oh Matt (47m 51s): Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely North Dakota and Montana. Yeah, we’re lower than that. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it’s, it’s so, it’s, it’s quite, you know, quite pleasant temperature wise. When you come here in the spring gets warm, you know, come here in May. Like it’s, unless you’re getting rain, you’re, you’re often fishing in just like long sleeves. Like it’s not cold, cold. Maybe when we’re ripping the boat around at 35 or 40 miles an hour, you might wanna put on a jacket. But other than that it’s very enjoyable fishing and, and full of action. You know, that’s the one thing I can, you know, I reiterate to people is I, I started out as a trout guide in the area and I quickly learned that Ontario’s not the most optimal trout fishing destination. Like we have great trout fishing, but it’s not Montana, right? It’s not, no, it’s not Montana right’s for me, there’s like two rivers that I feel an, let’s say, an ethical responsibility to guide. Matt (48m 35s): There’s a lot of other rivers that hold trout, but they’re so small that I would hate to like blow them up. And like, I would hate to be that guy. So there’s a couple bigger rivers, like the Grand River. I think you just had a show with Rob Hill, you were probably talking about the grand. Yeah, the, the upper credit river. Awesome rivers for Browns. But it’s busy. So like you get out there and you’re always behind someone and there’s another guide working up and there’s a lot of fly fishing guides in Ontario. But you know, you’re trying to give each other space When I’m up here on the Georgian Bay, like I come up to the parking lot at 7:00 AM and if there’s four or five other trailers, I’m not worried. ’cause the bay’s huge. Yeah. Like it’s no big deal and nobody’s fly fishing. Like, it’s still so common. Matt (49m 16s): And when we’re out there targeting Bass or Pike or Gar or Boan, and you hear people in other boats, ’cause people always forget how well sound carries on water. And they’re like, are they fly fishing? Like, don’t they know there’s no trout here? You know? Like they, they don’t even consider that, you know, we’re probably doing better pike fishing on fly than they are conventionally. Dave (49m 34s): Man, this is amazing. I’m just looking at the map. It’s interesting because the border between Canada and the US it’s, they pretty much, it goes right through all the lakes, like right through the middle. Pretty much every lake is split by the countries, right? So Matt (49m 46s): Oh, on the Great Lakes. Yeah. Yeah. Lake Dave (49m 48s): On the Great Lakes. The lake. Yeah. Lake. Matt (49m 49s): Yeah. Yeah. There’s pretty much an even split. I think you guys have more because of like Michigan. Because Dave (49m 54s): Of Michigan. Matt (49m 55s): Yeah. It’s all on you. Dave (49m 56s): Do you know that history at all? This is going back to the history books. Are you a history buff? I don’t, Matt (50m 0s): No. Yeah, I mean, a little bit, but I, I don’t, I don’t know that history. Yeah, there’s probably something to do with the war of 1812 and how Canada beat you guys. Dave (50m 6s): And is that, is that what happened in 1812? Matt (50m 10s): Yeah. I love, I love to throw that one. Dave (50m 11s): I don’t remember. Yeah, I, I didn’t cover much of that. I don’t remember that in history, but yeah. Matt (50m 15s): War of 18, 12. Yeah. It was all over like the Brits versus I guess the Americans and Yeah, that’s where like, it separated. I think a lot of the lines were drawn. Dave (50m 25s): Oh, right. So that was it. Yeah. We’ll, we’ll get a I’ll, I’ll have to find a video, throw in the show notes on the war of 1812. This is good. Matt (50m 32s): I love to throw that one back to my American guests. Talk about it’s the only war you guys ever lost. Dave (50m 36s): Right? Right. There you go. That’s amazing. I’ll definitely bring it up at the dinner table with my kids, you know, for school. It’ll be fun to talk about that. Yeah, Matt (50m 46s): Good stuff. It’s all, it’s all in good fun. Oh Dave (50m 47s): Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it’s all good. For sure. So, okay, so we, we got, well let’s, let’s take it outta here. We’re going to, I got a few more questions for you here on fishing. Sure. That I wanted to do our kind of our partner shout out trip, shout out segment and, and today Totally. It’s presented by a four wheel campers. So we’ve been four wheel camper. We’ve, we’re actually playing a trip. I think this would be a cool one to do a drive across. We just drove to Wisconsin last summer and, and we’re kind of heading up to Alaska, but I think this would be fun to actually drive across and head up your way. And the four wheel camper is cool because it’s a popup, right? So you got on the back of pick pick and then when you want to camp, it pops up a few feet and you’ve got a king-sized bed on top. So we’ve been doing this and it’s been really awesome. So I wanna give a shout out to Four Wheel Camper first as we get into this segment. Dave (51m 29s): But for you, what is your, if we’re talking partner brands that you’re working, you love, like what are some of those brands? Obviously, you know, you got all the fly gear. Give us three brands you like out there every day that you’re using for fishing. Can Matt (51m 40s): I give shout outs to like local, like businesses and Dave (51m 42s): Stuff? Anything? Yep. Cool. Anything you want? Yeah. Matt (51m 45s): Awesome. So I cannot speak highly enough about really Drift Outfitters in Toronto. There are our Ontario’s fly shop. Like they are literally the fly shop that does it. Right? They have everything you need. Awesome guys. I get a, I have a great working relationship with them. Like give ’em a call, check out drift outfitters.ca. Those guys are awesome. Yeah, they’re fantastic. There’s, I mean, I’m just fortunate enough, I have a lot of people that I work with, I I brands and stuff. There’s some, some good brands out there, you know, with, it’s like, you know, I work closely with like Redington and Sage for my rods and stuff in the boat. Sure. You know, good quality stuff, you know, Redington especially, it’s like nice price point for guide rods. Matt (52m 26s): Yeah, it is. Like, I’m not too worried if people are breaking rods and, and Redingtons great. Like, you can just buy a tip and it’s over. Get it quick. But yeah, those are kind of the big ones. I mean, it’s smaller scale. I have the best marine mechanic. If anybody’s listening from an Ontario and is looking for a marine mechanic, check out bear repair, this guy will drop like everything at the top, drop his hat to help me out. Nice. Like he can cancel everything on his schedule to get my boat back in the water. Like, he’s awesome and he knows it. He’s like, you’re doing this for work. These guys are cottagers. They can wait an extra couple days. Dave (52m 57s): That’s awesome. What, what, what’s a cottage here? Matt (52m 59s): So we have a, we have a massive area called the, like Ontario Cottage Country. About an hour and a half north of Toronto is this area called Muskoka. And it’s thousands of lakes and it’s people that have, you know, holiday homes. Dave (53m 12s): Yeah. Lots of Matt (53m 13s): Money lakes and Yeah, I guess, yeah, some of them, I mean a lot of them are family homes that were purchased. You know, these cottages purchased way back and they might have bought ’em for like five or six grand and they’ve just, you know, sat on this property forever. Now they’re worth millions. But, so the cottagers, they, we have a, like my town grows by like, it’s gotta be 20,000 people in the summer just ’cause of Cottagers, local Cottagers. So yeah, it’s, it’s exciting. Good spot. Dave (53m 36s): Awesome. So there, there’s, and what was your, what was your boat that you have there? What was the brand? Yeah, Matt (53m 40s): I have a Lund fishing boat. Pretty common boat in like northern states and, and southern Ontario. Probably the standard I would guess that you see out here for aluminum boats. Yeah. 18 foot Lund Classic. Yeah. Dave (53m 54s): Yeah. And do you see, I’m sure you see different types of boats. Like do you see everything, you see people in like paddleboards all sorts of crazy stuff out there? Oh yeah, Matt (54m 1s): Yeah, for sure. It’s a popular spot. So yeah, from paddle boards to the ever dreaded wake boat and Seadoos. Dave (54m 7s): Oh right, yeah. You guys get that too? Matt (54m 10s): Oh yeah. Don’t we ever, but the lake’s big enough for Wake Boat, so it’s not too big a deal. And then, yeah, you know, a lot of it is gonna, you come up here, you’re gonna see a lot of that, you know, semi-pro BassPro kind of mentality running the, the, as people like to call ’em the glitter rockets, you know. Dave (54m 25s): Oh right. Are you gonna see some stuff with lots of sponsors on the side of the boat and all that? Matt (54m 29s): Oh yeah. These, these like 21 foot boats with 350 horsepower on him that are going, you know, 80 miles an hour to go catch bass. It’s pretty wild. And that’s just me being jealous. Dave (54m 40s): Sure, right. Yeah, that’s good. Okay, so you got everything there. What about, let’s just take it back to on the water, give us a few tips. So again, somebody’s thinking about going northern pike, maybe they’re calling you, maybe they’re just sure new and they’re going up there. What are, what are a few things you’re telling them to have success? Maybe define, let’s talk finding some of those bigger northern PIs. Matt (55m 0s): Find the shallow bays and then start deep and work your way in. Carry multiple lines. So I typically fish eight or 10 weight rods, eight to 8, 2 10 weights, eight, nine tens. But more importantly have lime sinking rates. So have a floating, have an intermediate. And if you had to have three, have a type five. If you can throw a type three in there as well. It’s also a great line. Make sure that you have good bite wire these fish have teeth. Incorporate a 12 inch section of 20 pound, 25 pound bite wire into your liter. If you’re fishing, sinking lines, fish is short leader no longer than four feet, including your bite wire. So three feet of fluoro or mono, one foot of liter. All you need just like, kinda like swinging for steelhead. Matt (55m 42s): Get let the sinking line get you down and, and you know, get it down to, because there’s no weight on my fly. So get ’em down that way. Yeah. Dave (55m 49s): Is there a pike line? Is there a pike, a fly line? Well, Matt (55m 51s): There’s so many, lots of, so many. Yeah. A lot of brands have predator lines. I like a couple. I mean the Rio Predator lines are cool. The scientific angular lines are awesome. Like they’re super durable. I’ve had some of them for like two guide seasons. Like that’s incredible. Like you’re getting a hundred plus days on the line and it’s still holding strong. Yeah. The Titan taper, I think they call it, they’re like triple, triple density sinking line, intermediate running line type three, you know, head and then like a type five tip. So it’s kind of cool. Maintains contact throughout the strip. Yeah, that’s a good one. And then just cover water, like find the right structure and just have faith like piker around. If you find a bay with a creek coming in, good green live weeds and you’re fishing from the outside in, you’re gonna find ’em. Matt (56m 38s): The biggest thing is just have patience. I’ve got, like I said, thousands of spots on this bay or in the area probably. You look at my map, it’s stupid. People think I’m bragging, but it’s, no, it’s, it’s real. It’s, it’s kind of hard to read the map with how many pins I have. Dave (56m 50s): Yeah. Matt (56m 51s): But of all those pins, there’s probably like 30 or 40 that are like really, really good that are always producing fish. And that just takes time. Fish, Georgian Bay for over 20 years that I’ve kind of broken it down and, and full-time for five. Dave (57m 5s): Why are you doing the, the, you mentioned the deep to shallow, why starting the deep water and head to the shallow. Why is that the better way? Matt (57m 11s): Often the, the biggest fish will be already post spawned and pushed out. A lot of those big females will come up spawn for their day and leave. And then the males will be recuperating up in the shallows like spawning for pike and muskie is pretty nasty. Like you’ll, you’ll catch fish in the spring that are all cut up and torn up from spawning, like males grabbing each other. Similar if you watch like salmon run a river and how they’ll, like males will fight, right? Dave (57m 33s): Yeah. Biting each other. Is that, how it works on the spawn is it’s just like salmon where you got the one male pairing up with one female or they’re fighting over that female, Matt (57m 41s): They’re like orgy kind of style. Dave (57m 44s): Yeah, right. Matt (57m 45s): They, they’ve got like five to six males swimming with one female. Dave (57m 48s): Are they digging reds? Are they digging a depression? No, Matt (57m 52s): No. They’re, they’re like often called a broadcast spawner. So they just spray, spray and pray, you know. Right. Sticks to the weeds. You’ll catch weeds and you’ll see pike eggs on them. Piker musky eggs. Like they’re like stuck to the weeds and yeah. And, and they just swim along the back bays and you’ll see their fins outta the water and like they’re just up there doing their thing. And then the males are constantly fighting each other. Jocking for position. Right. Getting closer to the female. Like a big male pike’s, 30 inches. A big female is like mid forties. Oh wow. So it’s obvious which one’s the female, you can tell. And yeah, those females finish their spawn, they do their thing and then they dip out. They’re like, let me get outta here. So they’re usually at the mouth of those bays. Like they don’t wanna go too far away. Matt (58m 32s): ’cause the food’s often back there. So start at the mouth of the bays, work your way in, make sure you’re eliminating those big fish. ’cause if you drive your boat over them, you might spook ’em. Right. Oh right. So it’s kind of like fishing a river, like fish from your feet to the far side. Just make sure you, especially on a really good spot. And then you’ll find your spots on your spot where like some of these bays I fish, like I said, are a hundred acres. There might only be a, I don’t know, quarter mile shoreline that I fish. ’cause I know that’s the best spot. That’s the, the icing on the cake right there. So, but that’s just from trial. Trial and error. Yep. And then just have Dave (59m 3s): Fun. Perfect. So what would be, so before we get outta here, I just wanna check, do you have any other, you know, takeaways from Today? We talked about a lot on pike. Anything we missed? Anything you wanna leave people with with as we get outta here? Matt (59m 15s): Yeah, I mean, Ontario is a short drive for anybody in the northeast US or a short flight from anywhere in, in North America, to be honest. Like, you can get on a flight at any major airport flies into Toronto. It’s, I live an hour from Toronto. Like it’s a major metropolitan center. But you come up here, it’s endless lakes little pressure, you know, right in the middle of what we call the Canadian Shield. All the granite outcropping rocks. It’s gorgeous. And, and and lots of options. So, you know, if you’re looking at planning fishing trips or if you’re in Toronto for work, ’cause a lot of people like, you know, Google and that. I’ve had offices in Toronto and I have a lot of people that come up on corporate work and they take a weekend or they take a day during that week to come out fishing. Matt (59m 55s): Just, you know, send me a message every time a year. Like we start guiding in March and we don’t stop till January pretty much. There’s always something to fish for nearby, whether that’s trout or steelhead or Gar or Boin Bass, Muskie Pike. There’s so much cool stuff. And I take a different approach, like most of the guides you’re gonna reach out to in Ontario, I’d say 90 plus percent of them are gonna be conventional focused. So if you’re a fly guy and you actually wanna go fly fishing with a guy who fly fishes, hit me up. I’ve got all the gear. Don’t even bring your rods if you don’t want. I’ve got, you know, all the rods rigged up, ready to go, got all the waiters and boots, you know, we’re rigged, we’re ready to just, just kinda show up and I can make a memorable day for you during your work week or your fishing vacation. Matt (1h 0m 36s): And yeah, that’s, Ontario is an awesome place to visit, so check it Dave (1h 0m 39s): Out. It is, yeah. Toronto is a, I mean obviously a huge city. What’s the next biggest city in Canada? Do you know? Behind Toronto? Matt (1h 0m 48s): Either Vancouver or Montreal. Dave (1h 0m 50s): Or Montreal. Oh, right, Montreal, which is Matt (1h 0m 51s): Right. Vancouver or Montreal. One of the two. Yeah, Montreal. Montreal’s like a six hour drive, five hour drive. Oh, okay. Yeah. And then Vancouver obviously another side, but like, it’s just like this, the GTA is just massive. Like, it just, it takes you two hours to drive across Toronto. You know, it’s, it’s got the world’s largest highway, if you can believe it, in Toronto. Like widest. It’s stupid. Oh really? It’s like 20, 22 lanes. No kidding. Whole like in like, like 11 in each direction. And it’s backed up every day. It’s horrible design. It’s so busy. But you know what, get in, you know, land in Toronto, get outta Toronto, like literally 30 minutes less than that 20 minutes north and it’s like chill. Yeah, Dave (1h 1m 29s): Right. Well if I, if I was going there, which hopefully I will soon. Yeah. It would be kind of cool to hang out, you know, I mean, for a little bit Yeah. To obviously get out, but I mean, if you haven’t been to Toronto, you know what I mean? Oh, Matt (1h 1m 38s): Toronto’s. It’s a cool city. Yeah, yeah. Stop by, you know, go in, stop by Drift Outfitters in downtown. Tell them you’re going out with me. They’ll make sure to hook you up with anything you might need. Here. Dave (1h 1m 47s): Here’s a question for you. This is totally random. I love the random segment question, but Yeah. Yeah. So do you guys have, I’m guessing, ’cause it’s up there, is, is the homelessness something you see around Toronto at all? I’m curious because out where we live, we have a major issue with it. Yeah, Matt (1h 2m 2s): Yeah. It’s sad. We sure do. Yeah, you do. You know the Okay. Yeah. It’s, it’s our, even in the town I live in right, it’s not a big city. It’s 20,000 people and like you go down to downtown, you’re gonna find it. It’s unfortunate. I mean the, the so many reasons, but you know, the worldwide economy and stuff right now is not doing so hot. Right. And it’s, you know, has not forgotten about Canada. So there’s a lot of people that are hurting and yeah, it’s sad, but it’s definitely a thing. Dave (1h 2m 29s): No, I totally, yeah, it is kind of crazy with everything, you know, in the world going on. I mean, I just didn’t even realize it. My brother was telling me about it, but like the fires in, in Southern California, right? There’s, there’s crazy, crazy, you know what I mean? Yeah. It’s like, whoa, what the heck? But I mean, I guess there’s always something Matt (1h 2m 44s): 14,000 people displaced. Dave (1h 2m 45s): Totally, totally. Yeah. There’s al there’s always something going on, you know what I mean? Whether it’s big like the covid or whatever, but I think that’s where fly fishing and fishing in general comes in. Right. Matt (1h 2m 55s): I was just gonna say that. I was just gonna say that, you know, like a great way for anybody, like anybody I’ve taken out for the first time fly fishing or fishing in general, like it’s one of those activities that they finally awaken to that. Like, holy crap, I can find peace and solace and forget about the stress of my life. And, you know, nothing else matters when you’re throwing a fly at a 40 inch pike in the shallows, right? Like Right. You’re really focused, you’re dialed in, you don’t even care what’s going on in your emails or your, or your phone calls. Turn off your phone, don’t get serviced. I can, I can take you to spots where there’s no cell service. You know? Nice. You know, it’s, yeah. It’s the best. That’s good. And I don’t know what I would do without fishing in my life, that’s Dave (1h 3m 34s): For sure. Right. Totally. Well, well, before we get out, give us one. I’d love to get into the music or podcast a little bit on, you know, on a road trip. Are you listening to more music or podcasts? Matt (1h 3m 45s): Yeah, both for sure. Depending on the length. I eventually, you know, I love starting out podcasts, listening in a Phish podcasts, like I mentioned my friend Soly. Oh yeah, awesome. The local Ontario boys, they do a good thing. Yeah, there’s a couple good ones up here, but, you know, I’d be, I’d be a bad Canadian to not acknowledge one of our most famous bands in the Tragically Hip. Oh, okay. Those guys rocked it so hard from Dave (1h 4m 8s): Tragically Hip. Okay. Matt (1h 4m 9s): Nineties into the early two thousands, rest in peace. Gordon Downey, the lead singer, but you know, they, they are the Canadian anthem. I’ve got a bit, no kidding, I shouldn’t say it ’cause it might wreck my, my streak. But if I’m musky fishing and on the way to the lake listening to the radio, not on Spotify, a Tragically Hip song, come onto the radio while I’m going, we’re gonna catch a muskie Dave (1h 4m 32s): That day. No kidding. That’s what, that’s Matt (1h 4m 33s): What happens. Oh wow. It seems to be that way. Dave (1h 4m 36s): So, yeah. Well, what’s, do you have a song? What one? I mean, we could look ’em up. Oh my God, what’s it? Is there a bunch? Oh my Matt (1h 4m 41s): God, there’s, there’s so many good ones. Weak Kings or the hundred hundredth Meridian or, oh my God, there’s, there’s, so they’re all, they’re the Canadian national anthem more so than Ocana. Gotcha. If, if you came up here and like, if you’re a Canadian said you hadn’t heard of the hip, especially if you’re like a fly angler now, or angler it hadn’t heard of the Hip, people would look at you sideways. Okay. Yeah. So if you’re coming up here for the first time, get a little bit of, you know, Canadian, you know, knowledge through listening to the words of Gordon Downey. And you probably learn a lot about the country just listening to some Dave (1h 5m 17s): Music. This is great. Okay, well we’re gonna plug that in right now. We’ll put some Tragically Hip in the show notes and maybe Awesome. On the Instagram on a reel or something like that too. So there you Matt (1h 5m 25s): Go. Yeah. Dave (1h 5m 26s): Cool, Matt, well this has been great. We will definitely be in touch and I think we’re gonna be putting together some stuff around trips and everything too. So definitely appreciate all your time today and yeah, looking forward to getting on the water and staying in touch. Matt (1h 5m 36s): Yeah, I, I appreciate it so much. It was so nice talking to you Dave. Had a lot of fun with you as well. And anybody, you know, yourself included, if you have any questions about the area, just reach out. Always available. Dave (1h 5m 48s): All right, quick call to action for you today. Head over and check in with Matt smooth river.ca. Let him know you heard this podcast today and if you’re interested, check in with him and see if he has any openings. We talked a lot about May and June today. He might also have maybe something later in the year. But check in with Matt, let him know you heard the podcast. And then also if before you get out here, click and follow the show and you’ll get that next episode delivered right into your inbox. We’ve got a big Argentina trip going right now. If you want to find out more about that, send me an email, dave@wetlyswing.com. We’re setting that up right now. Argentina, golden Rado. It’s something I know a lot of people are thinking about, talking about. Dave (1h 6m 28s): It’s one of those destinations, trip of Lifetime. So check in with me if you have any questions and I’m gonna let you get outta here. I hope things are going well right now for you. And I hope you have a great morning, a great afternoon or evening, wherever you are in the world, regardless of where that is. Maybe you are out on the eastern part of the of North America and you’re listening to this one getting ready for some pike. Maybe you’re out there on Pike Water right now. I hope you found some good nuggets of information in this one, and if you did, let me know. I’d love to hear from you. Thanks again and we will talk to you on the next one.
Fishing for Northern Pike
Photo credit: Nicolas Roman @salmographer on Instagram

 

Conclusion with Matt Martin on Sight Fishing for Northern Pike

Don’t miss your chance to connect with Matt over at SmoothRiver.ca. Tell him you heard about him here and see if he has openings for your next fishing trip. He’s got you covered whether it’s May, June, or later in the year. Before you go, follow the show so you never miss an episode.

710 | High-performance Heated Apparel with Amber Liljestrand – Heated Core, Carbon Fiber, Bow Hunting

heated apparel

In this episode, we delve into innovative solutions for extreme cold weather with Amber Liljestrand from Heated Core. Join us as we explore how Heated Core’s cutting-edge carbon fiber technology is transforming heated apparel, making it more efficient and user-friendly than ever before.

Amber shares her journey into the world of outdoor gear, discussing how her passion for bow hunting and fishing led her to the brand. Discover how these revolutionary base layers allow you to control your comfort at the touch of a button, turning on the heat just when you need it most. Additionally, Amber provides valuable tips on staying warm during cold weather adventures, even beyond the use of heated gear. Tune in to learn more about Heated Core’s journey and find inspiration for your next winter adventure.


Show Notes with Amber Liljestrand on High-Performance Heated Apparel. Hit play below! 👇🏻

apple podcasts

Find the show:  iTunes | Stitcher | Overcast

Subscribe on Android

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts

Subscribe on Google Podcasts

Subscribe via RSS

(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

Sponsors and Podcast Updates

 

heated apparel

Episode Chapters with Amber Liljestrand on High-Performance Heated Apparel

2:28 – Amber shares how her passion for outdoor activities started. It began with fishing with her grandparents and expanded to kayaking and paddle boarding. Despite her love for summer, she ventured into deer hunting, a cold-weather activity, which introduced her to the challenge of staying warm while being stationary outdoors.

5:29 – She talks about how she discovered Heated Core. Their products, which provide direct warmth through battery-operated heating, transformed her outdoor experiences.

heated apparel
Photo via: https://heatedcore.com

heated apparel
Photo via: https://heatedcore.com

9:33 – Amber describes some of their heated clothing pieces that include a long sleeve top, a vest, and full pants, resembling thermal or base layers. These garments incorporate undetectable carbon fiber heating elements woven into the fabric, providing even heat distribution without hot spots.

15:14 – We explore the features and future possibilities of the brand. Amber mentions potential development of full footed leggings with heating elements for toes as a future option. She also notes that the heating system is designed for flexibility, allowing users to turn it on when they begin to feel cold and off as they warm up through activity. The heating elements can last up to six hours on low settings.

heated apparel
Photo via: https://heatedcore.com

19:19 – Amber shares her strategy of only activating the heated layer when she starts feeling cold, using it as a backup to extend her time outdoors comfortably. This approach helps prevent common issues hunters face, such as cutting hunts short due to cold or missing shots because of tense, shaking muscles. She also emphasizes the versatility of their products, noting its usefulness not only in hunting but also in various activities like skiing, attending sporting events, or even simple tasks like shoveling snow.

heated apparel
Photo via: https://heatedcore.com

23:16 – Amber shares tips on staying warm in cold weather, emphasizing the importance of layering. She explains that layers of air trapped between clothing help retain warmth, and it’s crucial to choose layers with thermal regulating properties to prevent restriction. Amber suggests adding insulative layers like puffy jackets or fleece to trap additional warmth.

For outer protection, Amber advises using durable shells that are either waterproof or windproof, depending on the weather conditions. These outer layers, often made with advanced materials, allow moisture to escape while protecting against external elements.

heated apparel
Photo via: https://heatedcore.com

27:25 – Amber discusses the gear from Pnuma Outdoors, highlighting its affordability and technical features. She emphasizes the versatility and fit of Pnuma’s clothing, particularly noting how well they fit women despite not being specifically designed for them. She praises the cohesive layering system that caters to different hunting environments and activities.

Photo via: https://pnumaoutdoors.com

31:54 – We get into Amber’s journey into outdoor activities and hunting. Amber shares that she initially engaged in summer outdoor activities and only began hunting four years ago after moving to the Midwest.

Photo via: https://www.instagram.com/amberlily.23/

35:39 – Amber shares an experience about taking her son hunting, where they encountered a bobcat that approached their blind so closely it brushed against it.

37:50 – She talks about the differences between bow hunting and rifle hunting, highlighting the advantages of the former. Amber explains that bow hunting in the Midwest offers a longer season, from mid-September to mid-January, compared to the 10-day rifle season. She also shares her personal experiences with bow hunting, noting the flexibility and creativity it allows for practice.

Photo via: https://www.instagram.com/amberlily.23/

50:07 – Amber highlights the product’s benefits for construction workers, police officers, and mail carriers who endure cold conditions as part of their jobs. At a recent trade show, there was notable interest from cyclists and motorcycle riders, who appreciate the product’s ability to provide warmth without compromising mobility or protective gear.

54:06 – We ask about her hunting activities in January. Amber explains that while the hunting season ends on January 15th, shed hunting begins immediately after. Shed hunting involves searching for antlers like an Easter egg hunt, while also serving as post-season scouting.

Photo via: https://www.instagram.com/amberlily.23/


You can find Heated Core on Instagram @HeatedCore.

Facebook at Heated Core

YouTube @HeatedCore

heated apparel


Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below




 

Conclusion with Amber Liljestrand on High-Performance Heated Apparel

We had the pleasure of delving into the world of high-performance heated apparel with Amber Liljestrand. We explored the innovative use of carbon fiber technology and its application in bow hunting gear, offering outdoor enthusiasts a game-changing solution for temperature regulation.

Visit heatedcore.com to discover the versatile layers that promise to keep you comfortable no matter the conditions. Whether you’re tackling the chill of a winter hunt or navigating unpredictable weather, Heated Core’s products provide the reliable warmth and adaptability you need.

709 | Bamboo Fly Rods Simplified with Chris Sparkman – Hex vs. Penta, Fly Fishing Virginia, Salmon Fishing

We’ve talked a lot about the action of the fly rod and the benefits of a full flexing rod over the last few months and beyond. Bamboo rods are the epitome of a rod you can feel. And today you’re gonna find out how to choose your next bamboo fly rod…


Show Notes with Chris. Hit play below! 👇🏻

apple podcasts

Find the show:  iTunes | Stitcher | Overcast

Subscribe on Android

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts

Subscribe on Google Podcasts

Subscribe via RSS

(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

Sponsors and Podcast Updates

Chris Sparkman is here today, founder and owner of Sparchimedes Bamboo Fly Rods. He’s gonna take us on a journey to choosing your first or maybe your next bamboo fly rod. We’re gonna find out why the five-sighted Penta style bamboo rod might be better for you than the Hexa style. We’re gonna get some information on the differences there, and we’re gonna talk about the perfect length of a bamboo fly rod. We’re gonna walk through what it might look like for you and your area, and why you might go with a nine-foot or maybe even a six-foot bamboo rod. We’re also gonna get into some great resources if you wanna take this conversation further and some other people you might want to connect with to put together your next bamboo rod. Plus, we’re gonna find out whether a bamboo fly rod has what it takes to battle a giant Alaskan salmon. Chris is also gonna talk about some trips he’s excited about this year.


You can call Chris at 703-772-2958

Send him an email at sparchimedesflyrods@gmail.com


Resources Noted in the Show

Related Episodes

589 | Casting Back in Time: The Art of Bamboo Rodmaking & Traditional Fly Fishing with Ed Few

WFS 343 – Bamboo Fly Rod Making Class with Bill Oyster – Oyster Bamboo

Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below



Littoral Zone #14 – How Lakes Work with Brian Chan and Phil Rowley

How Lakes Work with Brian Chan and Phil Rowley

If you want to have more success fly fishing lakes, you need a good understanding of how lakes work—knowing how lakes work helps you get to the right spot at the right time, no matter the season.

You’ve probably heard the saying that 90% of the fish live in 10% of the water, and it’s true for lakes just like rivers and streams!

In this two-part series on how lakes work, Phil Rowley and Brian Chan break down everything you need to know about fishing lakes effectively.

Show Notes with Brian Chan on How Lakes Work. Hit play below! 👇🏻

 

 

apple podcasts

Find the show:  iTunes | Stitcher | Overcast

Subscribe on Android

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts

Subscribe via RSS

(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

Sponsors and Podcast Updates

How Lakes Work with Brian Chan and Phil Rowley

About our Guest

Brian has spent over 30 years as a fisheries biologist for the provincial government, specializing in managing trout lakes in the interior regions of British Columbia. Over the years, he worked on hundreds of lakes, managing them, stocking them, setting regulations, and carrying out habitat protection and enhancement work.

Brian is also an ambassador for several fly fishing and boating companies, including Scientific Anglers, Sage Fly Rods, Islander Reels, Marlin Boats, Semperfli Fly Tying Materials, and Daiichi Hooks.

He is a passionate fly fisher and fly designer, and together with Phil, they’ve put their expertise to good use through their online fly shop.

Check out Brian and Phil’s Stillwater Fly Fishing Store.

Episode Chapters with Brian Chan on How Lakes Work

Lakes aren’t all the same, and knowing how they work is key to becoming a better stillwater angler. Here’s what you’ll learn in this episode:

  • Lake Productivity and pH
  • Three Lake Classifications
  • Different Zones in a Lake
Corbett Lake - How Lakes work with Phil Rowley and Brian Chan

Lake Productivity and pH

pH is a scale that measures how acidic or alkaline a lake is, with 1 being super acidic and 14 being super alkaline. The pH level affects the water chemistry, impacting how well the lake supports aquatic life, from insects to fish.

What’s the Ideal pH for Trout Lakes?

The best pH for trout lakes is between 8 and 9.2. This is the sweet spot for plant growth and lots of invertebrates, which are food for trout. If the pH exceeds 9.2, the water becomes too salty for trout, and it would not be easy for them to survive.

For example, lakes like Pyramid Lake have a pH above 9, which is perfect for Lahontan cutthroat trout but challenging for rainbow trout. The pH scale is logarithmic, meaning small changes in pH can make a big difference in fish survival.

Brian explains that pH levels in lakes aren’t always the same and can change over time due to several factors:

  • Spring snowmelt helps keep lakes balanced by flushing in nutrients, but the lake can get too salty without it.
  • Human activities like logging can change water flow and impact the lake’s chemistry.
  • Climate change is also a significant factor, as some areas aren’t getting the same snowmelt they used to, causing pH to rise.
Marl and Chara Shoal - How Lakes Work
Marl and Chara Shoal

How Lakes Work: Three Lake Classifications

Lakes can be divided into three categories: oligotrophic, mesotrophic, and eutrophic. These classifications help us understand which lakes are better for fishing and support healthy fish populations.

Knowing the type of lake helps anglers figure out why one lake might be an excellent spot for big trout, and another might not be as productive.

Oligotrophic Lakes

Oligotrophic lakes are big, deep, and well-oxygenated, with lots of water flowing in and out. The flushing rate in these lakes is high, meaning the water changes quickly, so there isn’t much shallow water for plants to grow.

Because of this, these lakes have limited food sources for trout. Fish here mostly survive by eating other fish, not just insects.

Mesotrophic Lakes

Mesotrophic lakes are a step up from oligotrophic lakes in terms of productivity. They’re still large but a bit shallower, and they often have small rivers or creeks flowing in and out. The lake has a bit more shoal areas or littoral zones, so some plant life grows in those shallow water areas.

Eutrophic Lakes

Eutrophic lakes are the gold standard when it comes to trout fishing. They’re shallow, nutrient-rich, and full of life. These lakes are often less than 50-60 feet deep and have lots of shallow areas for plants to grow.

These lakes’ flushing rate is slow, so they stay nutrient-rich for longer. Chironomid fishing is also incredible here due to the muddy bottoms.

Different Zones in a Lake

Lakes have different zones, and understanding them helps anglers know where to fish at various times of the year.

Littoral Zone

The littoral zone, or shoal area, is the shallow water at the lake’s edge. This is where sunlight can penetrate to the bottom to create photosynthesis. It’s usually 7 to 8 meters deep.

 The littoral zone is where all the vegetation grows and where trout and other fish species feed, particularly in the spring to early summer and again in the fall, right until freeze-up.

This is the zone where we spend the bulk of our fishing time—whether it’s 5 feet of water or 22, 23 feet of water—this is the prime area.

Limnetic Zone

The limnetic zone is the open water area in the middle of the lake, just beyond the littoral zone. Here, sunlight still penetrates, but it doesn’t reach the bottom. This means there’s no vegetation growing like in the shallows, but it’s still a prime habitat for zooplankton, which trout love to eat.

Although this zone has less food diversity, the zooplankton and deep-water hatches make it an essential spot for fish. In the warmer months, fish move out of the shallow water and into the limnetic zone, where the oxygen levels are better and the water is cooler. This is when fishing techniques like using blob patterns can be incredibly effective.

Thermocline

The thermocline is a transition layer between the warm upper water and cooler deeper water. It’s usually a narrow band, about a meter in depth, where there’s a sudden drop in temperature.

The thermocline keeps the colder water from mixing with the warmer water, which is why the deeper parts of the lake stay cool and oxygenated. Fish often move from the shallow waters to sit just above the thermocline, where they find cooler water and better oxygen levels, especially during hot summer months.

Profundal Zone

Beneath the thermocline in deeper lakes, there’s another zone called the hypolimnion, the cold, deep water layer. It’s the bottom part of the lake that remains cool and doesn’t mix with the warmer upper waters

Remember, all lakes are different, but understanding lake structure makes your fishing day more successful and enjoyable!


Follow Brian on Instagram 👉@brianchanflyfishing

Connect with him on Facebook 👉 Brian Chan 

Visit their website: Phil Rowley & Brian Chan’s Stillwater Fly Fishing Store.

 

How Lakes Work Related Podcast Episodes

Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below

Episode Transcript
1 (2s): Welcome to the Littoral Zone podcast. I’m your host, Phil Rowley. The Littoral zones, or Shoal area of the lake is a place where the majority of the action takes place. My podcast is intended to do the same, put you where the action is to help you improve your Stillwater fly fishing on each broadcast. I, along with guests from all over the world, will be providing you with information, tips, and tricks, flies, presentation techniques, along with different lakes or regions to explore. I hope you enjoy today’s podcast. Please feel free to email me with your still water related fly fishing questions and comments. 1 (42s): I do my best to answer as many as we can prior to each episode just before the main content. Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoy today’s show. Although I’m not a biologist by profession, I’ve always been fascinated by nature and trying to understand how and why things work. This skill has proven especially valuable to me when fly fishing lakes. If you want to be successful fly fishing lakes, one of the critical skills you need is a good understanding of just how lakes work. Understanding how lakes work helps put you in the right place at the right time throughout the season. The adage that 90% of the fish live in 10% of the water is just as valid on lakes as it is on rivers and streams. 1 (1m 29s): Joining me for my two part series on how Lakes work is good. Friend, mentor, business partner, fly Fisher, brand ambassador, author, and fisheries biologist, Brian Chan. In today’s podcast, part one, Brian and I will be discussing how lakes are classified and the different zones within a lake, including those zones. We as fly fishers should focus the majority of our attention on part two of the series focuses on the seasons of a lake and their impact on fish location. Let’s get started. Welcome back. It’s good to have you again. For those of you who aren’t aware or haven’t listened to previous episodes or other episodes, I guess that’s the same. 1 (2m 13s): Brian was my first live guest on episode two when we talked about Brian and I, obviously, obviously maybe you don’t know, but we’ve been good friends for many years, do lots of things together. We have our own online Stillwater fly fishing store that I guess Brian and I, we strongly encourage you to go visit. We’ve got all kinds of good stuff for Stillwaters there. But Brian, why don’t you, for those that maybe haven’t listened or don’t know anything about you, I can’t imagine out there in the Stillwater world that exists, but perhaps it does. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself, background, how you got into fly fishing and you role in, in the fly fishing community? 2 (2m 51s): Yeah, no, that’s great. I can do that, Phil. Yeah, and it’s great to be on online chatting with you again, and I’m sure there’ll be be lots of good information tonight. So for those that aren’t familiar with my background, I was very fortunate to be a, a fisheries biologist for the provincial government for over 30 years with my specialty being the management of Trout Lakes in the interior regions of British Columbia. So I was able to work on six, 700 lakes in a very large area over those years. Managing them, stocking them, setting regulations, doing the habitat protection work enhancement work, things like that. 2 (3m 34s): So, and you know, I’m very familiar with the cycles that lakes go through each year. And being an avid Stillwater fly fisher, having that biological background about fish and lakes, entomology and ology, as well as fisher’s biology, it set me up for a perfect career as well as a passion. And like yourself, Phil, a fly designer, which you and I have put to good use through our e-store. I’m a, an ambassador for a number of companies in the fly fishing and boating industry, including scientific anglers, sage, fly rods, islander reels, marlin boats, semper fly fly time materials and daiichi hooks. 2 (4m 25s): And also having professional relationships with other companies as well. And like you said earlier, we go back many, many years and it never gets old talking about fly fishing and particularly our passion of fly fishing still waters. So it’s great to be back on board with you. 1 (4m 46s): Well, it’s great to be with you tonight, Brian, and, and tonight we are talking about something that you touched on the ology. This is the first of two episodes on how lakes work. It’s a big subject, that’s why we’re doing it in two episodes, to give it the discussion it needs. And today’s subject is about something I, I think we both firmly believe that all still water flies. Fisher should know, you know, lakes aren’t created equal. And we’re gonna talk today about lake types, how they’re broken down and zones of a lake, because it’s really critical information to know, isn’t it, Brian? 2 (5m 21s): Yeah, it, it’s absolutely a sound background of how lakes change through the year as well as the different classification, the lakes. It’s the foundation of becoming a successful Stillwater fly fisher. No question. 1 (5m 39s): Yeah. ’cause if you don’t know where to go or why lakes are different, why is a coastal lake or deep lake different than a, some of the lakes you get to spend your time on in the cam area, why are they not all the same? So, you know, I think for us it helps eliminate that non-productive water so we can consistently catch fish throughout the season. So tonight we’re gonna talk about that, we’re gonna talk about lake productivity and pH. We’re gonna talk about the three types of lakes, the sea classifications, and then we’ll walk you through the zones of the lake. And then part two of this podcast, which will be released at a later date, we’ll focus on the different seasons that lakes go through each year and how that impacts fish movement and behavior and things like that. 1 (6m 23s): So Brian, why don’t we get into lake productivity and let’s maybe start talking about pH first and all that stuff you took in high school chemistry. Wonder if you would ever put it to use, guess what? 2 (6m 38s): Yeah, you bet. So, yeah, you know, pH is a really good topic to start off with. So pH is a, it’s, it’s a relative scale of the, from one to 14 on the, the range of whether the lake is acidic to neutral, to alkaline. The pH of one is extremely acidic, whereas a pH of 14 is extremely alkaline. And depending on the lake type that we’re talking about, the pH will tell you so much about the relative productivity in terms of water chemistry, and as a result, how productive the lake will be in supporting invertebrate life, aquatic insects, and then eventually fish. 2 (7m 28s): So on a scale of one to 14, with seven being neutral, we find the most productive trout lakes have phs of eight to about nine, 9.1, 9.2. That’s the sweet spot for productive trout lake in terms of the aquatic plant life growth, the diversity of invertebrate life in the lake, which are the food for the fish and for the survival of salmon, which are trout are are member of that family. So that sweet spot between, you know, even a little bit less than eight, but not above about 9.2 is where If you, If you looked at some of the most productive lakes that you fish, whether they’re in North America, Europe, or South America, they’re gonna be in that eight to 9.2 range. 2 (8m 26s): And once you get above that, the pH one, 9.2, the lake, the water basically becomes too salty in terms of supporting trout. And they have a difficult time in with their osmo regulation in breathing and the transfer of oxygen. And so that’s why trout species such as lahan and cutthroat are naturally much more adaptive to high pH water. And so the lakes that you like to fish fill, like Pyramid Lake for LA hot and cutthroat, I would just looking at that water and, and the lay of the land, I’m sure the pH is over nine and those LA hunting and survive in that. 2 (9m 14s): And, and I would suspect that rainbows would be challenged to survive in that type of water environment. 1 (9m 22s): Yeah, I think actually historically Pyramid Lake was part of a larger sea back in prehistoric times through as time passed became landlocked, but still retained that because yeah, the pH on that I think is, as you said over nine. And it’s interesting ’cause I, you mentioned like 9.1, 9.2, and I think it’s important that people realize it’s not like a change in temperature, is it? Where it goes from, you know, 69 to 70 degrees, that’s only one degree. Right. But on the pH scale, it’s significant, isn’t it? 2 (9m 53s): It’s, well, it’s logarithmic. So yeah. You know, going from pH of 8.2 to 8.3 is a significant change in pH and so it kind of builds up. And once you tip the scale and go over pH nine, then we’re, even the slightest change increase can have an effect on trout. On rainbow trout survival, that’s for sure. 1 (10m 19s): Yeah. And it can change too. The, the pH isn’t fixed. I think in discussions we’ve had outside of this podcast, you talked about a neat term. You’ve used a couple of times cultural eutrofication. I love that how PHS of lakes can change both by water levels and by, you know, human development around a lake or within enough of the water table of a lake to impact pH two. Isn’t that correct? 2 (10m 45s): Absolutely. You know, each lake is like, its individual ecosystem and you know, most lakes rely on some form of spring flushing. So snow melt coming down and flushing through the lake to recharge some of the nutrients in the lake and maintain a balance in the, in the water chemistry. So things that impact the overall water chemistry of the lake. And certainly the pH can be the amount of timber harvesting that has occurred if it’s in a forested area, because that changes flow regimes and the water quality of the water coming into the lake, how much water comes into the lake and for how long you get spring shut. 2 (11m 33s): Climate change is having a significant impact on our lakes in many parts of North America. And I’m sure in other parts of the world as well, because we no longer, and where I live, there are snow packs, which us we would get, you know, up to a meter and a half of snow typically around our lake. And we’re not seeing that on a consistent yearly basis anymore. In some years we have hardly any runoff. And so those lakes aren’t getting that recharge of good water coming in there. And so when lakes don’t fill in the spring and you get, you know, a good amount of natural evaporation because we we’re in a a dry climate, the pH is gonna go up. 2 (12m 16s): And as we already mentioned, you know, just going up a 10th of a point of pH it can be a significant change in the overall water chemistry that not only affects survival of fish, but also it affects insect life and how they survive. Because changes in pH also changes the diversity of plant life in lakes. And they can, we see die offs of long stem bull rush and cattails due to fluctuating water levels as well as changes in the pH of the water. And we see the proliferation of other species of plants that were very, very minor in abundance in previous years and now have taken over lakes because of the changing water chemistry. 2 (13m 5s): So every year’s different on the lakes, but I think it’s safe to say that there a lot of lakes, certainly in the western hemisphere are undergoing radical changes due to changes in climate. 1 (13m 17s): Yeah. Well you mentioned that, you know, some of our listers probably aware of some of the lakes you fish and I fish as well. Roche comes to mind just located south of where you live in Camloops. And years ago that lake used to be pretty clear, Marl and cara, which is marl, is precipitated calcium looks like sand on the bottom and you don’t wanna stand on it ’cause it doesn’t behave like sand. But that lake is totally different today, isn’t it? 2 (13m 42s): Absolutely. It’s no longer a, a crystal clear lake that never had algal blooms. Now it has major blue-green algal blooms in the summertime and the water has a slight tannic stain to it. The plant life com the species composition is changing and the moral shoals that we used to see are now in filling with vegetation. So we don’t have those nice clear moral patches where the fish used to cruise over and, and pick off shrimp in, in the fall months. It’s a different environment for them. And two years ago, the first time ever, we had a complete winter kill on that lake and it’s never ever happened. 2 (14m 27s): And certainly in the 40 plus years that I’ve known it, and even historically we might’ve had just the odd partial kill, but it was, we, we suffered a total kill that was all due to changes in water chemistry, changes in water levels, and then changes in local weather patterns where a fall turnover never occurred that year, not fall. And that, that just spelled disaster for many lakes. And that’s a topic we’ll get into in a future podcast. 1 (14m 58s): Yeah. And, and I also remember stump again, just a little bit further down the road, had real low water issues and that changed the pH the rainbow and the Koch inhabited that lake really struggled. And at one time I think you guys were looking at stocking alternate species in there to deal with that new pH environment. But thankfully the lakes came back up and things changed and sort of went back to more normal. If there’s such a state nowadays, 2 (15m 21s): Yeah, it, it’s, we need that water, we need that spring fresh at to sweeten the water in our lakes to have a little bit leave in the spring and some new water come in. But that amount of water or how much water comes in each spring is really unpredictable. Now it just says simply ’cause of our snow pack, you know, our precipitation amounts that we’re getting total precipitation is, is changing. Every year is different. 3 (15m 50s): Trout routes is the most comprehensive mapping app for trout anglers. With over 50,000 trout streams, 350,000 access points, public land maps and more trout routes is the number one resource for navigating, researching and exploring trout streams. You can download trout routes for free in the app store today. Just search for trout routes on your phone and take your exploration to the next level. That’s trout routes. T-R-O-U-T-R-O-U-T-E-S. Let on Demark Lodge give you the Montana fly fishing experience you deserve. The gin clear waters of the Missouri River offer a world-class experience with one of the finest rainbow trout and brown trout fisheries in the world. 3 (16m 33s): Whether you’re a seasoned angler or new to the sport, their family of guides will tailor a trip just for you. You can head over to on demark lodge.com to fish one of the great trout streams in the country. 1 (16m 44s): And it’s the same here in my local lakes and where I travel around, I’m sure it’s the same for you. It looks like the tide’s out sometimes on the lake, so water levels drop, your boat ramp is no longer accessible. All these, you know, all clues that, you know, things aren’t good. But this all falls into, you know, why do you need to know pH because it helps classify lakes, right? Like there’s different, there’s three basic classifications of lakes. Maybe Brian, you could walk us through those and why it’s important to know the difference because this helps determine one lake’s a better fishing opportunity or a better environment to grow, you know, production and, and grow big fish. 2 (17m 23s): Yep, sure. So we have three classifications of lakes. When you look at ’em limb logically, we have oligo trophic, lake meso, trophic lakes, and u trophic lake that u trophic lake are, are the ones that we focus on for producing the best tr fisheries. But it’s important to understand what the characteristics are of each of these three leg types so that when you look at them, you can say to yourself, oh no, that makes sense now of why that lake isn’t a very good tr fishery. So oligo tropic lakes are the lowest in productivity. They’re well auctioned, they’re big, they can be like big oceans deep, they have big rivers coming into them, big rivers leaving them, and smaller streams and rivers coming into them as well. 2 (18m 16s): They have limited amounts of shallow water or literal zone, which is a key component of productive trout lakes. And because there’s such a h these lakes have so much water coming in and going out because of the rivers coming in. And that, that’s called flushing rate. So the flushing rate of those lakes is, is the time to flush that lake is very low in terms of how many days it takes for the entire water column of one lake to volume to be completely replaced with new water. That time is months in some cases. So with all that water going through, you know, the and limited shallow water for vegetation to grow on, there’s not a lot of food in those lakes in terms of invertebrate food life. 2 (19m 6s): So fish that live in those lakes and including trout and char, they survive by being ous, meaning they eat other fish, other non-game fish species or cokey or white fish, things like that. Or other fish species like suckers and shiners and minow minow species. So not your go-to trout lake that you think you can go out there and catch fish on chron it, granted there’ll be some CID there, but it will be very limited as to where they live and and to how abundant or diverse those populations are. And then we go from oligo trophic lakes to meso trophic lakes, which are a little bit more productive in terms of water chemistry than the larger oligo trophic lakes. 2 (19m 58s): They’re still can be relatively large lakes, they’re a little bit shallower in depth. They still have potentially small rivers or large creek systems flowing in and out of them. But there is a bit more shoal area or or literal zone in the lake so that there’s some plant life that’s growing on those shallow water areas. And because the water chemistry is a little bit more productive because the water doesn’t flushing rate is longer, the water stays in the lake a little bit longer. So there’s a little bit more nutrients in the lake, stays in the lake. So you could have some interesting fishing at at River MAs, at creek MAs, things like that. 2 (20m 41s): And you could potentially could have some ate hatches and, and certain may fly hatches and, and the deltas, the smaller rivers or or streams that are flowing in and out of the lake. And then we go from meso trophic lakes to u trophic lakes, which are our gold medal trout lakes, they have the highest levels of productivity. They’re relatively shallow, you know, maximum depths, often less than 50, 60 feet. And there’s always exceptions to the row, but there’s certainly not two and 300 feet in depth. They have abundant shoal or littoral zone where the sun can penetrate to the bottom and allow photos, photosynthesis to occur, which green plant life provides habitat for invertebrates, aquatic insects as well as trout. 2 (21m 33s): They have typically only small streams, which are often ephemeral only flow in the spring and then dry up during the warmer summer months, or they’re totally landlocked. That’s the most productive ones. So that the only runoff coming into the lakes is from spring surface runoff coming into the lake. So they’re shallow, they have lots of shoal area and setting a flushing rate of those lakes is years. It takes years and years for the entire volume of the water of these lakes to be replaced with new water. So they’re like a, a standing compost box of water that’s nutrient rich, often associated with in climates where we have long growing hot summer periods. 2 (22m 20s): So lots of sunlight, lots of photos, lots of essential nutrients, phosphorus, calcium, nitrogen to grow the plants, which provides the habitat for a lot of the aquatic invertebrates and insects like shrimp and dams and maze and dragons and chron that trout and other fish species focus on these lakes are prone to algal blooms. You get green algae blooms as well as blue-green algal blooms, which is just telling you they’re an extremely nutrient rich body of water and lots of phosphorous, lots of calcium, lots of nitrogen. 2 (23m 1s): And the ideal situation is that there’s a perfect balance of those chemicals. So you may, you may have algal blooms, but you’re still gonna, the blooms are gonna die off light in the fall and they don’t come on until early to mid-summer months. So in the spring and late four months, the water’s clear again. But you’ve got muddy bottoms versus rocky or sandy bottom lakes that are common in oligo trophic and me atrophic lakes. In eutrophic lakes. You’ve got mud. When you’ve got mud, you’ve got cid. And that’s why we have our most productive chrono and fishing in atrophic lakes. 2 (23m 41s): Massive diversity of species of insects, particularly CID and huge emergencies. So you can now drive by a bunch of lakes in the area that you live and look at them and go, well yeah, now I know why we don’t, you know, we don’t fish this lake and we’re going, we’re driving another hour to get to a, a shallow one. And that’s the reason why. Yeah, 1 (24m 3s): Because you know, they look at some of those lakes, I’m thinking geographically, and maybe we can help our listeners separate them geographically, where we, we would tend to see your oli atrophic lakes. I remember them sort of on the west coast when I lived there that would, I would sort of limp through the winter and early spring because they didn’t ice over. The poor fish in there looked more like snakes than anything else. I think they were starving to death. They were deep. No shoals. What sort of pH range would we see in an oli atrophic lake? Seven, six and a half, seven 2 (24m 35s): In oligo tr lakes. The pH is gonna be, you know, seven to seven and a half at the very highest I would think meso atrophic lakes are gonna be, you know, low sevens to high sevens. I don’t know of any meso atrophic lakes that are that touch pH of eight. And then you get into you really productive atrophic lakes. And then that’s when you’re talking, you know, seven and a half plus. And again the, the pH of your trophic lakes will change depending on whether they’re coastal lakes or inland lakes. And you know, obviously our best trout lakes are whether you’re, you’re in, you know, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, bc, Washington, all the way down to California and in the east into the Midwestern states, their pH o lakes are gonna be, you know, eight and above and you’re gonna, except for the ones on the coast, and you’re gonna have all those such a diversity of aquatic life in them from plants to bugs to fish. 1 (25m 38s): And as you mentioned, you can have little pockets where you’ll have a, a region that’s predominantly a li atrophic lakes. You’ll have that one little ru not really run to the litter, but that one exception, that’s a pure atrophic lake, isn’t it? It can be a little bit of anomaly like that. 2 (25m 54s): Absolutely. There’s, you know, there’s always pockets of productive lakes, productive atrophic lakes sitting amongst large, you know, coastal type lakes. But once you basically cross the Rockies or the coast mountain range and get into the drier climates of the interior regions and then and beyond, once you cross the Rockies, then you’re into really a lot more atrophic lakes over there as well. So, you know, it, it follows the trend all the way down, you know, into the Midwestern states. Yeah, 1 (26m 28s): It’s like a spine, isn’t it? The lakes, just like I say, over the coastal range, maybe the sandwich between the coastal range and the Rockies and then east of the Rockies. Those are just rich with atrophic type lakes. And of course you and I like to chase other things in lakes besides trout. And that’s where probably in the Canadian shield you’re seeing more of those me atrophic lakes with your lake trout, your pike walleye populations, lots of rocks, some weeds, lily pads, weeds like that. That fair to say? Yes. Okay, so this is important, right? Because it helps you choose, you know, like you said, you go to one lake and why, you know, you might get, I’m sure as a biologist you were getting emails, how come Lake X, you know, you stalk all these fish in there and how come they don’t get any bigger, you know, they’re put in there obviously for recreation purposes, but those fish are never gonna, you know, have a chance to get to the lakes you’re used to seeing and around your local waters, right? 2 (27m 17s): Yeah. It’s every lake depending on it. The water chemistry will only grow so many big fish or lots of little ones. And so how you, how you stock it and numbers, you stock the strains of rainbows or other fish species you stock all determine in the end how big those fish are gonna get. As well as how they’re managed for catch rates or whether they’re catch release or they have a high catch rate. So as we mentioned earlier, every every lake is a unique ecosystem and, and they have to be managed individually. 1 (27m 54s): Okay, so we’ve talked about the different classifications, li atrophy, meso, atrophic, atrophic within each lake there are different zones, aren’t there? And lakes are classified in there. And maybe we can walk through those and where they are and why they’re important and how where fish will relate to them at different times of the year, the season. And we can walk through all of those. 2 (28m 17s): Yeah, so our, you know, our discussion is now basically gonna be focused on these atrophic lakes, on the tr lakes. But we break a lake down into several zones, starting from the edge of the lake, the shallow water as we go from the edge of the lake called the littoral zone or the shoal area of the lake. And that’s basically that area of the lake where the sunlight can penetrate to the bottom to create photosynthesis. So it’s usually seven to eight meters in depth. It’s about the maximum extent of sunlight energy. And so that’s basically what we call the, the shoal area of the lake. 2 (28m 59s): And then once we get to the edge of the shoal, then we have a drop off, defined drop off that slopes down into deep water or the deep water zone of the lake. And so that in a nutshell, that’s the basic three parts of the lake. But we do have specific names or terms that we identify each parts of those lakes. The electoral zone is, is a very important zone of the lake because that shallow water is where all the vegetation is growing. That’s where the prime feeding of trout and other fish game fish species and other fish species feed, particularly in the spring to early summer. 2 (29m 41s): And then again in the fall, right until freeze up. That’s the big grocery store. That’s where the shrimp are, that’s where the dams and dragons and leeches and chron and the majority of chron are coming off. So it’s also prime habitat for juvenile trout. But the big boys come in there as well to feed when the water’s the right temperature and there’s adequate oxygen, they’re gonna be in there. So that’s typically from ice off until early summer in most lakes. Sometimes they can be in there all summer depending on, you know, lake. But oftentimes they, they slide off in the mid hot summer months, but they’ll return back in the fall when water temperatures drop, oxygen levels go up and those fish can come back safely in the shallow water to bulk up for winter. 2 (30m 30s): That’s where we spend as five fishers. Definitely the majority of the, of our fishing time is somewhere on that shoal, be it five feet of water or 21, 22, 23 feet of water. And you know, that’s the prime area is that we spend the bulk of our, our fishing time on. 3 (30m 51s): It’s time to talk about something that elevates your fishing experience. Stonefly nets nestled in the heart of the Ozarks Ethan, a master craftsman dedicates his skill to creating the finest wood landing nets. They aren’t just tools, they are works of art, blending tradition and craftsmanship. You know, every time I set my stonefly net in the water, it’s not just the fish that catches my eye, it’s the beauty of the net itself. These nets are tailored to your fishing style with options to customize the size handle and even the intricate wood burls. They are a perfect mix of functionality and aesthetic appeal. And let’s talk about the memories. Just like Ethan, many of us cherish fly fishing as a way to connect with our past and creating lasting memories. 3 (31m 33s): Stonefly nets are more than just nets. They are part of our story. Each cast and every cast. Are you ready to make fishing trips unforgettable? Visit stonefly nets.com right now and discover the difference a handcrafted net can make. 1 (31m 47s): Today’s 3 (31m 47s): Episode is brought to you by Grand Teton Fly Fishing. They’re a top guide, service and fly shop with access to some of the most prized waters in western Wyoming. And their guide team brings together over 200 years of local experience. Their goal is simple to share these amazing resources and help you experience the thrill of a native cutthroat rising to a single dry fly all in the shadows of the Tetons. It’s the kind of experience that stays with you and fosters a deep appreciation for the waters we love. You can check ’em out right now at grand teton fly fishing.com and if you book a trip, let them know you heard about them through this podcast today. 1 (32m 24s): That’s the place to be, isn’t it? That’s why my podcast is named La Toro Zone. ’cause from a Stillwater perspective, that’s the place to be. That’s where the food is, that’s where the fish is and that’s where we’re probably best suited to fish there too, aren’t we? With all our different techniques and, and gear options and things like that. 2 (32m 42s): Absolutely. So once we leave the la Toro or Shoal area, we’re out into the Midwater Lake, which is called the Matic Zone. So it’s the open water part in middle of the lake. So the still penetrates down to the same depth out there as it did in the in shoal areas, but there won’t be any vegetation growing ’cause we’re in the, into the deep water area of the lake. And the sunlight can’t touch the bottom, but it impacts zooplankton on and how much is in the lake and its movements up and down through the water column because zooplankton is photo sensitive and as you I know trout love to eat zooplankton like Daphne Cyclops buzz mine and those types of species. 2 (33m 33s): And that’s why we, we like to fish those blob patterns and 4 (33m 38s): Yes we do. 2 (33m 41s): And then that’s why they could be be so effective. So there’s a fewer diversity of food sources out in deep water over the tic zone. But ones that are important not only include zooplankton, but we have deep water cronin or mid hatches that could be coming off in as much as 90 feet of water common in 30, 35, 40, 50 feet of water. So remember these lakes got that nice mud bottom way out in the middle. It doesn’t matter whether we’re in five feet or or 45 feet of water. So it’s prime habit habitat for those chron larvae to be living in the mud at those depths. 2 (34m 24s): And so you can get, you have some fabulous deep water chron fishing out in that deep clear tic zone and the fish will get pushed out over the edges of the dropoff during the worry warm summer months, if the water gets too warm on the shoal arrow zones, they have to slide off onto the edges of the dropoff and then out into the, the deep water zone or, or the magnetic zone because they can get down to depth where the oxygen is more conducive and the water is cool and they just hunker down there and, and wait for the literal zone water to cool off in the fall. 2 (35m 6s): But they don’t quit feeding. And that’s why we’ve spent so much time experimenting with blob patterns to try to imitate those different species of, or different colors of zooplankton that are found out there. So that also can be a very, very important area of the lake for fish to be in and to also to fish in and that but more restricted to the warmer summer months. And then lakes also develop thermo climbs in the warmer summer months. So that sunlight that’s penetrating down to seven, eight meters depending on water clarity, it’s beating down there and it’s warming those upper layers of water. 2 (35m 52s): It’s warming them up. But below the energy of the sun’s penetration, the water remains cool so that there’s a transition zone that, that’s called the thermocline. It gets established on most atrophic lakes and it’s where you reach the end of sunlight penetration and heat and meet that cold water. It’s often a band of a narrow band of water that’s rapidly dropping in temperature. It’s usually up to about a meter in depth that zone. And that’s the transition between the warmer upper layers of water and the deeper cooler area of water. 2 (36m 37s): And we call it thermocline. So the thermo climbin can act as a invisible barrier to mixing. It’s that that rapid drop in temperature over that very narrow depth can be a, a barrier to mixing. So the wind can blow hard during the summer months and it will only mix the water from the thermocline and above. And the deeper colder water resists the mixing because of that temperature gradient. And it remains cooler all during the summer months. So when the water gets hot, those fish slide off the shoal areas, the warm shoal areas and sit right above the thermic line where the water’s cooler and that are oxygenated so it can blow and blow and blow in and it will not break down the thermocline and cause mixing. 2 (37m 33s): It’s a very strong barrier that is resistant to mixing. So we find thermocline establishing on most atrophic trout lakes, however, there’s always exceptions to the rule and lakes that are very, very shallow, like 25 feet in depth and less, they’re often shallow enough that, and in windy locations that that the thermocline never really gets established because the energy from the wind is enough to keep it mixing. And so what safe to say that 90% of the lakes trout lakes are well developed, the McCline there, there’s always gonna be ones that don’t. 1 (38m 13s): Yeah, we, I can think of some of the shallow ones, you know, up near your neck of the woods as well that are, you know, that’s the deepest spot. 1820 feet, those lakes never, you know, the, the lake can’t stratify thermally. So the the, I think it’s important that the thermocline can’t form because the sun’s raised. The sun’s energy can impact that lake water from the surface to the bottom. And you can also get thermic lines forming in a li atrophic and Oh yeah, me atrophic lakes as well. Absolutely. Because it’s all about the sun’s energy, right? Yep. Okay. They form 2 (38m 44s): In the biggest lakes, smallest lakes. And so me atrophic oli atrophic lakes definitely form thermic climbs and there will be a gradient temperature gradient there. But those big ocean type lakes, they regularly break down the thermo climb because of the energy of that water moving through the waters enough to break it. 1 (39m 8s): I’ve seen some videos where it shows how when wind gets going, that whole thermo cline sachet, right, the whole lake sort of tipping from one end to the other. But the thermic cline remains intact because the energy isn’t there to really pound it and break it up like you talked about. So you could have the therma cline deeper at one end of the lake and shower the other, depending how the wind’s blowing and the water’s think of a bathtub, right? I guess just sloshing up and down, left to right kind of thing. As that happens, 2 (39m 37s): That wind, wind sach where water’s pushed to one end of the lake and then it rocks back and forth. That’s why you could be out there fishing one day and the wind is glowing, downwind, yet your indicator is coming, drifting back towards is because there that wind that’s hit the other in the lake and it’s now sending a curb to water back. 1 (39m 57s): It’s undertow, it’s circulating back under that, grabbing everything and you’re going, what’s going on? And you set on it every realize there’s nothing there. Yeah. It’s pretty interesting to see. And so fish can go out and slide there. They don’t necessarily, I think some people may think that when a, a trout leaves, you know, the shallow, the shoal area, the toal zone and heads out to deep water, it doesn’t just go over the drop-off and plummet right down to the bottom. Does it, they can slide horizontally out there and stage. I think you’ve talked to me about it with your forward facing sonar you have now, which I am envious of. You’ve seen that right fish staging out in in mid depth just, you know, not happy with the shallow area and just hanging out there until they are happy to go back in the shallow area again. 2 (40m 39s): Absolutely. And in many legs, even though there’s a thermocline and so there’s no mixing below the thermocline. So in some of the most productive like shallow lakes, there can be a loss of oxygen under the thermocline during the summer months because there’s always anaerobic decomp occurring, which is stripping wa oxygen out of the water. But in most atrophic lakes, there’s still enough oxygen below the thermocline for those fish to be feeding on those deep water chron hatches. ’cause you might say, well you said earlier there’s chron hatches in 60, 70, 90 feet of water. 2 (41m 22s): Well the, and they oftentimes it’s during the summer months when those occur. So there is enough oxygen below the thermocline and the majority of those trout lakes for those fish to be down there feeding on those cid larvae and emerging pupa. However, some of the most super productive trout lakes, there may not be enough oxygen below the therma line for those fish to be comfortable and to feed. And that’s why they sit just above the thermocline in, in a layer where the water’s cool and better oxygenated. And that’s where your, your, your depth sounder becomes such an important tool to understand what’s happening in the lake. 2 (42m 6s): It, it can tell you so much. Oh, oh, why are all these fish sitting here and there’s none deeper? 1 (42m 12s): Yeah, well you can actually see the thermocline. Yep. I have on my sounder because of that differing density of water due to the therm, you know, the temperature differences part of that sounder pulse penetrates through and actually hits the physical bottom. Whereas part of it is reflected off of that. And it looks this distinct line at a set depth, you know, as you said, depending on water clarity, 20, 25 feet, maybe a little deeper in clearer lakes. And it looks like a blizzard south of that point, doesn’t it? That’s where the thermocline is. And of course you said zooplankton like stacks up there as well, right? It’s not physically strong enough to penetrate that difference, is it? 2 (42m 49s): No, no, that’s right. 1 (42m 50s): So there is a, a term for the zone underneath the thermic line too, isn’t it? On, on larger lakes where it really establishes itself. 2 (42m 57s): Yeah, it’s called the hypomon and the, the bottom of that deepest part of the lake. It’s the pro fundal zone of, of the lake. And so if you’re reading, if some of our audience members are looking up biology, water chemistry books or about lake ecology, you’ll the, all these terms will, will pop up and hopefully you’ll have a better understanding. 1 (43m 25s): Yeah, okay. Yeah. ’cause there’s one you and it is interesting ’cause the genesis of this podcast is when I was doing my, my book, the Orifice Guide to Stillwater Trout Fishing, I had to write one chapter and send it to the publisher right away. I think doing, in part they wanted to see if I could string three words together and make a sentence. But the one I wanted to do was sort of the elephant in the room, the one that was most technical and that was, you know, how lakes work and you were gracious enough to proofread that for me and make sure I had my science and my theories in line with reality. And so I thank you for that, but it’s such critical information to know. 1 (44m 5s): So that’s a great place to find that as well as other books. Is that, what’s that really big? It’s by, is it by Weell Limnology? It’s a university book text. 2 (44m 13s): Oh yeah. That by what? Oh yeah, that’s the, the gold standard Limnology textbook. But you know, listening audience, they should just buy your book. 1 (44m 24s): Yeah, well good working knowledge. ’cause I did reference that book in addition to your volume of knowledge as well. And it’s a, it’s an expensive book ’cause it’s, you know, limited print run being a, a university text and it’s, if you want to go down the limnology rabbit hole, that book will take you there. You’ll, I recall reading pages of it and then stopping after about half an hour going, I, none of that stuck in my head. I gotta go back again because it was like what? Yeah, so I guess you don’t have to know all that much, but it’s important, right? Because it helps you determine where to go. And I think, you know, to, to summarize this podcast, the toal zone, the shoal areas where we wanna be is fly fishers and that’s the, the shallow area of the lake where the sun can hit the bottom. 1 (45m 6s): You’re gonna see weeds there, you’re gonna see all your majority of your insect hatches. It’s the place to be in the spring and the fall months and into early summer before the late. You know that, as you mentioned and we’re sort of treading the border here between our next podcast we’ll get together for on, you know, the seasons of a lake. ’cause some of these are gonna cross in when things like turnover and, you know, the summer doldrums and all that stuff happens. We also like the transition areas, don’t we Brian? The drop offs, the points, those kind of structures. Sunken islands. 2 (45m 39s): Yeah, no, I think once we get together for our next discussion, it’ll, it’ll really tie everything together and hopefully provide lots of tips for all the, all the ardent still water fly fishers that are listening to our talk. 1 (45m 58s): So to summarize what we’ve talked about here, roughly in an hour, all lakes are different, aren’t they? 2 (46m 6s): Absolutely. 1 (46m 8s): Yeah. You can’t broad brush them, you know, geographically we talked about pH because that’s, you know, one of the criteria for breaking lakes down into whether they’re a li atrophic, me atrophic or atrophic, we wanna spend our time, we wanna look for those shallow, productive lakes because they make the best trout lakes. If you’re a bass fisherman, they make the best bass lakes because of the, the amount of food they can hold and the fish they can grow. And I think we mentioned a number of times as well, it’s generally the shallows of the place to be because that’s where the plant growth takes place. The food lives there and the predators come in to feed on it. And as fly fishers, we can use a variety of techniques to successfully fish that zone indicators, long leaders, sinking lines, sweep lines, all kinds of things at our disposal. 1 (46m 54s): Right? 2 (46m 55s): Yeah, yeah. No, it’s great. You know, the, as we’ve always talked about, Phil, you know, every day on the water we learn something, but before we’re going on the water, if you’ve got a, that basic understanding of lake structure and how lakes function, which relates to where the bugs are living and how they’re ing and where you should be fishing, it just, it just makes your day on the water that much more enjoyable. 1 (47m 23s): Yeah, exactly. Well Brian, I appreciate you taking the time today to talk to me about this stuff. Hopefully everybody enjoys it and learn something from it and the importance of it. It may get a little sy and a little like, why do I need to know that? But you do and I look forward to getting together with you again. We will talk the seasons of the lake that’s really gonna bring all of this into focus and really understand where we need to be in lakes at certain times of the season. So thank you very much Brian, and hopefully you can still get out on the water. We’re recording this in late November. Brian’s got the benefit of a few lakes at lower elevation lakes that are, are still open. 1 (48m 4s): Mine are locked up and I’m done till spring of next year. So 2 (48m 11s): Yeah, I, we’ve got a little bit of time left, but it’s definitely nearing the end. 1 (48m 17s): Alright everyone, thanks so much. Thanks for listening and we’ll see you, we’ll talk to you on another podcast. I hope you enjoyed today’s episode. The first in my two-part series focusing on how lakes work. I always enjoy talking with Brian about all things to do with Stillwater. This was Brian’s second time on my podcast. During our first episode, we discussed one of our favorite passions ate. Be sure to check out that episode if you haven’t already. Some of the key takeaways from today’s episode include understanding that all lakes are not created equal. Each lake is its own unique environment pH potential hydrogen in part is used to help determine a lake’s trophic status and is used to help classify all still waters as fly fishers. 1 (49m 4s): We aim to target trout in the most productive lakes or atrophic lakes as they’re typically home to large trout. Brian and I also discuss the different zones within a lake where they’re found and which zones trout frequent at various times of the season. And why be sure to listen to part two of this series.

 

Conclusion with Brian Chan on How Lakes Work

To wrap up today’s episode, not all lakes are the same. Each one has its unique environment. Be sure to listen to part two of this series for more insights on how lakes work.

Support Our Podcast Sponsors           
Support Our Podcast Sponsors         
Support Our Podcast Sponsors         
Support our Podcast Sponsors