759 | The Soul of Fly Fishing: Jerry Kustich on Bamboo Rods, Steelhead, and Sweetgrass

jerry kustich
Photo via: https://www.sweetgrassrods.com/craftmasnship

In this episode, we sit down with Jerry Kustich—bamboo rod builder, author, and one of the pioneers of Great Lakes steelhead fly fishing. From his off-the-grid cabin days in Idaho to building rods with legends like Tom Morgan at Winston and starting Sweetgrass Rods, Jerry takes us on a soulful journey through decades of fly fishing evolution. You’ll hear about his early fishing adventures, the rise of the Great Lakes fishery, his passion for writing, and the powerful stories behind the rods, rivers, and people that shaped his life. If you love stories that go deeper than just catching fish, this one’s for you.


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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

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Show Notes with Jerry Kustich on Bamboo Rods, Steelhead, and Sweetgrass

From Seminary to the Stream: Jerry’s First Fly Fishing Quest

Jerry’s fly fishing journey started in the 1970s—right after he left the seminary and set off in search of adventure. Inspired by Joe Brooks’ book, he loaded up his truck and drove west with one goal: catch a Dolly Varden. That road trip led him to northern Idaho, where a local helped him reach a remote river. He caught the fish—illegally, he later found out—but more importantly, he found where he belonged.

He built a cabin, lived off-grid, and learned fly fishing one cast at a time. With no internet and few books, it was all trial and error. Later, his younger brother started fishing New York’s Great Lakes and soon they were both chasing big fish, big water, and big dreams—coast to coast.

Mapping the Great Lakes: Jerry and Rick’s Steelhead Adventure

In the early 1990s, Jerry and Rick Kustich set out on a bold mission—to explore and fly fish as many Great Lakes steelhead rivers as they could. They were told it couldn’t be done. Fly fishing for steelhead in these waters wasn’t common, and swinging or nymphing flies was considered useless. But they didn’t listen.

They traveled across the region, fishing around 75 rivers and learning by trial and error. From Lake Superior’s remote shores to New York’s tight tributaries, they not only proved the doubters wrong—they helped pioneer fly fishing for steelhead in the Great Lakes. Their work eventually led to the book Fly Fishing for Great Lakes Steelhead.

Photo via: https://www.amazon.com

The Story Behind Sweetgrass Rods: From Winston to Legacy

Jerry shares the inside story of how Sweetgrass Bamboo Fly Rods was born. After decades of rod building and working alongside legends like Tom Morgan and Glen Brackett at Winston, Jerry and a small crew walked away from the brand when the vibe shifted—clock punches and corporate culture didn’t mix with bamboo rod making.

Sweetgrass started with no plan, just passion. But when Glen began getting flooded with orders after leaving Winston, they built something new. Jerry didn’t want another rod company named after a person—he wanted a legacy. Sweetgrass was born to last beyond its founders, built on craftsmanship and soul.

Now, the torch is being passed to a new generation, with David Serafin carrying on the tradition in Livingston, Montana. Jerry’s chapter in that story ended in 2013, after the loss of his wife and a brief adventure in Mexico, but Sweetgrass lives on.

jerry kustich
Photo via: https://www.sweetgrassrods.com/craftmasnship

A Song for Ruby

Jerry isn’t just a rod builder and writer—he’s a songwriter too. During a tough time in his life, Jerry wrote a sweet tune for a little girl named Ruby, the daughter of his friend Jack. Jack had Ruby at age 63, and the connection between them inspired Jerry to create a heartfelt song. It’s called “Ruby” and you can find it on Spotify and Apple Music. It was recorded as part of a local music project in Virginia City, Montana.

How Jerry Kustich Became a Writer (and Why He Keeps Going)

Jerry didn’t set out to be a writer. But living off-grid in Idaho gave him time to read—and dream. Books by Robert Traver and Patrick McManus sparked his interest, and eventually, he started writing his own stories. It all began with short pieces on birds for a local Audubon newsletter. That led to a weekly bird column in a Montana newspaper. He wasn’t paid, but it forced him to write every week. Later, when he published his first book, At the River’s Edge, that same paper gave him a full-page feature—and his book took off.

Now, Jerry’s written multiple books, keeps writing articles, and even mentors others. His advice? If an opportunity shows up, take it. Don’t wait for perfect. Just go.

jerry kustich

The Stories Keep Going

Jerry sees writing and storytelling as a way to pass things on. Just like Joe Brooks once inspired him, Jerry now inspires others through his books and life. One fun connection? He recently had a beer with Joe Brooks’ nephew—right in the same region Joe used to fish, the Susquehanna and the Chesapeake Bay. Jerry says everything in life seems to come full circle.

He also reflects on the “golden age” of fly fishing, which he says faded in the early 1970s with the decline of bamboo rods. But a new wave came in the ’90s, sparked by A River Runs Through It and carried forward by people like Lonnie Waller and Lefty Kreh. They were the bridge from quiet tradition to the big, modern world of fly fishing we know today.

From the Great Lakes to BC: The Spey Revolution and a Steelhead Life

Jerry  had a front-row seat to one of the biggest shifts in modern fly fishing: the rise of spey rods in both the Great Lakes and the Pacific Northwest. Back in the ’90s, few people were using two-handers in British Columbia or Michigan. But Jerry saw it all change—he went from skating Waller Wakers on the Bulkley River to swinging flies in the Manistee. He and his  brother were part of the early wave proving that yes, you could catch steelhead in the Great Lakes on swung flies.

At Winston, Jerry pushed for smaller spey rods when most people were still casting 15-footers. He helped bring the idea of the 11-foot Great Lakes spey rod to life, even when others scoffed at the region’s potential. Years later, that “cesspool” comment about the Great Lakes fishery didn’t age well—it’s now one of the biggest and most vibrant fly fishing scenes in North America.

Fishing, Music, and a Life Well Traveled

Jerry never planned to be a world traveler, but one trip led to another—and suddenly, he’d fished for Atlantic salmon in Quebec, Newfoundland, and Nova Scotia, and chased summer steelhead in places like the Dean River. His favorite salmon fly? The Green Highlander. And when it comes to comparing Atlantic salmon to summer steelhead, Jerry says salmon are “majestic,” while steelhead fight with grit.

His best advice for younger anglers with big travel dreams?

  • Look into guiding—many travel the world and get paid for it.
  • DIY trips are still out there, but they’re harder to find (and more expensive).
  • Don’t rush into buying a fishing house in the tropics—rent instead.

Now living in Maryland near the Chesapeake Bay, Jerry fishes for stripers and other species close to home. He’s also a lifelong musician and folk-rock fan, inspired by legends like Jimmy Buffett. His favorite song to end the day with? Knee Deep by Jimmy Buffett and Zac Brown.

As Jerry says, “It all kind of ties together.” Fly fishing. Music. Soul.


You can find Jerry at sweetgrassrods.com.

jerry kustich

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Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below

Episode Transcript
Dave (2s): Today’s guest is one of the pioneers of Great Lake steelhead fly fishing. He’s chased steelhead across nearly every state, Canada and Russia, and is known for his soulful voice of fly fishing literature. In this episode, you’ll hear some incredible fly fishing history, amazing stories and surprising lessons that will leave you inspired on your fly fishing journey this year. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Jerry Kustich, Sweetgrass Fly Rods owner and fly fishing innovator is gonna take us on a vast journey of his knowledge of the history of fly fishing and how it all started with this cabin. Dave (45s): He built this off the grid cabin he built out west in Idaho, And it all started there. And how he’s worked around to connecting and working with Tom Morgan at Winston Rock Companies, how he turned that into Sweet Grass, the bamboo and fly fishing Renaissance movement. So much good stuff here today. I’m just gonna get right into it. So without further ado, here he is Jerry Kustich. You can see him at sweetgrassrods.com. How you doing, Jerry? Real Jerry (1m 12s): Good. How are you, Dave? Good, Dave (1m 14s): Good. Yeah, it’s, it’s great to have you on here. We’ve, we’ve had your brother on Rick a number of times here. He’s, you know, got a bunch of stuff going on. We’ve actually, I fished with Rick too, which has also been amazing. We did a trip out. Oh, I didn’t know it. Wow. Yeah, we did a trip out to, we are, we called it our steelhead school, and we did a trip with Jeff Liga and Rick, and Rick was out in our New York, and it was awesome. It was really cool. We had a good, good crew out there. So, but we haven’t really touched base with you. I’ve heard a lot about you Sweetgrass, rods, you know, your books that you have going, you’ve been called some pretty amazing things, the soulful voice of, you know, of fly fishing literature. I’ve heard some things out there and, but we’re also gonna just talk about, just in general, what you have going. Dave (1m 54s): So first off, give us an update. What’s going on this time of year with you? It’s, I guess we’re almost into April. Are you, are you fishing this time of year or more hanging low? Jerry (2m 2s): Yeah, I’m starting to, I don’t, I’m not as aggressive at fishing as I used to be. I’m pushing 79, but yeah, I just was out last night on my kayak. That’s primarily what I do is fish outta my kayak now. And I was on the Susquehanna River looking for some stripe bass, which have become more of a, more of a mythical fish these days. The have gone down considerably. At least they’re, it’s not like they’re gone, but if you have a boat where you can travel and chase ’em long distances, it’s one thing. But the places that I usually find fish, I’m just not finding as many anymore. So it’s a, it’s been kind of frustrating that way. Dave (2m 42s): Gotcha. Yeah. So Kai, so that’s something maybe we will, we’ll talk more about, you know, as we get into it. But, but let’s take it back ’cause we’ve heard Rick’s intro story to fly fishing. I’d love to hear yours, you know, so do you have a first memory of fly fishing? Have you been doing this a while? Yeah. Oh Jerry (2m 57s): Yeah. I, yeah, it’s one of those things. I write about it in the early seventies. I don’t know, I don’t want to get too much in the weeds here. Yeah, go for it. But, but I was in the seminary for eight years and I left the seminary, I was teaching school in Utah and left in 1972. I was going to continue to teach and get my master’s degree. And at one point I just decided, and I was sitting in class and I said, I’ve had enough education, I guess that, that I just kind of wanted to just go off and look, you know, and discover what’s out there. So at that time, it was in 1975 and I had been reading Joe Brooks’ book, trout fishing, And it just captured my imagination. Jerry (3m 45s): He was traveling all over the world at the time. It was unique because fly fishing travel wasn’t that common back then. And, and I saw a picture of a dolly garden, which is now a bull trout and char and hanging on a, a log, and I think it must have been the Flathead River. And I just wanted to go and catch one. So I, I, that was my quest. I hopped in the car, or in my pickup. I packed up everything I owned and was living outta my truck looking for a dolly vardon. Wow. And one road led to another. I went through Montana and I was kind of a hippie looking guy at the time, and Montana wasn’t too much, I don’t think, into hippies then. Jerry (4m 29s): And they kept saying, sent me down the road and essentially to northern Idaho, which was where the hippies were. Right. And I met a guy who was a minister in the, I met him in a restaurant, corner restaurant in Priest River, Idaho, which was ironic since I was studying to be a priest. And he said, you know, I know a guy who could probably get you into a dolly garden. So he took me way back up into the back woods, and I met this guy, John Landon, his name was, and he was an artist, his wife was an artist, and they built somewhat of an artist type of house in the middle of nowhere. Jerry (5m 11s): And he took me out fishing up into what turned out to be illegal water. It was closed, but I did catch a dolly garden. I didn’t catch him though, on a fly at that time. I was in fly fishing. But I knew this is a place I wanted to be. And as it turned out, John was from Buffalo, New York, which is where I was from. And then I found out, I told that story to my parents when I was telling them on the phone. They became very quiet. And then they asked me why did I end up in Priest River? And, and I just told them, and, and they said I had an uncle who in 1993 had died in Priest River, Idaho. Jerry (5m 54s): Wow. He was working for the Conservation Corps, the CCCs at the time. So I kind of felt that was probably where I was meant to be. So I, I ended up buying a piece of land, building a cabin living off grid. And within that same timeframe, started to fly fish and met someone who knew someone and how to tie flies at the time. There wasn’t, other than Joe Brooks’ book, there wasn’t much written about how to fly fish, where to go to fly fish. What year was that, Jerry, when you started that? It was, I built the cabin in 1976. Jerry (6m 34s): 76, okay. And from there I ended up getting a job. I worked, I, so I lived in a cabin in the wintertime off grid. And then I got a job with Forest Service in central Idaho on the Locksaw River, just about 60 miles from Montana. And so it was just perfect. I was able to fly fish, the lock saw after work every night. And on the weekends, every weekend I’d head to Montana and fish someplace different. And it was seated. Your, your pants fishing. I really, I just learned one cast at a time. I mean it, you know, just, there was no shortcuts to learning. Jerry (7m 17s): It was just kind of like, you just had to do it, unlike nowadays where you can pick up any of this information easily. So, so, so it was fun. But I, that’s the, that’s the thing. And at that time then my brother figured into it, he was, he’s 15, 15 years younger, and he used to come out and visit me for a week or two and we’d traipses around Montana primarily, and then go up and stay in my cabin as well. So, and he at the time was, I think, thinking about coming out to moving maybe to Montana. But at that same time, the, the Great Lakes, he was, we grew up on the Niagara River, and at the same time the Great Lakes were coming back strong. Jerry (8m 0s): And he was one of the, well, probably one of the few people not, there wasn’t a lot of people fishing that magnificent fisheries in the late seventies and early eighties. And he used to tell me over the phone these great fishing stories of these big fish. And he wasn’t, at that time, he was fly fishing, but he wasn’t thinking in terms of using a fly for the big fish. And we talked about it and, and he started swinging big flies up there and Ira probably in the late seventies and the early eighties. And it, you know, never looked back. And from that, you know, I, from, I was tempted to come back. It was, it was so good, but it, so I was able to kind of do a little of both every year. Jerry (8m 46s): You know, eventually moved outta Idaho into Montana in 1983 and was able to fish all around Montana and then hop in the car and spend four or five, six weeks in, in New York. And it, as I got more and more into working with fly rods and making fly rods, I’d do two short trips, two to three week trips a year to New York. So, so it’s kinda an overlay of how all of this works. Dave (9m 18s): That’s amazing. Yeah. So you basically had this west, you know, you exploration, right? You’re out in the west. And I wanna hear more about that too, about this cabin off the grid at the same time. It’s really interesting ’cause your brother, you guys are kind of picking up, it sounds like fly rods, although you’re older, so you kind of picked it up first, but doing your own thing on the east and the West Coast, is that kind of how it worked than your exchanging stories as you went? Jerry (9m 40s): Oh yeah, it was, I mean, you know, and that was, that was a neat thing. And although he was a little more in his younger year, he, he is sort of been able to travel a lot more obviously as he got older. But we’d pick up all these different stories and we’d, you know, TRAs after him, whether it was the, another river in the Great Lakes or another place out west. And, and it just kept on doing different things. That was the thing. And it was more inspired. All of this for me was more inspired. It wasn’t a matter of, I always examine it, it wasn’t a matter of the catching of the fish, it was looking for the fish and these journeys that would take me to different places. Jerry (10m 22s): And that, because I was inspired by Joe Brooks. Joe, that’s what he, at least that’s what the, his book indicated is that he just loved, you know, loved going to these different places and catching different species and different situations. Right. And Rick shares that same, same gene, I guess. Yeah. And between us, we’ve covered a lot of water. Dave (10m 43s): Were your parents into like outdoors angling or any of that stuff? Jerry (10m 48s): Not at all. My dad, he’d go fishing. I often, I’ve written about it, my uncle and my mother’s father. So it would, my grandfather, they, they fished regularly and, but my dad would go, he wouldn’t go on his own and he would go fishing if someone asked him. But if he had something better to do, he wouldn’t Dave (11m 10s): Go. He didn’t do it. Was your grandfather fishing in, was he like conventional or fly fishing? Jerry (11m 15s): Oh, no, just conventional. Yeah. Dave (11m 17s): Out, out in the east out in New York. Yeah. Jerry (11m 19s): We lived just about probably a quarter mile from the Niagara River, unfortunately, when the Niagara was pretty, pretty polluted. But he, And it was still fish around, but it was pretty crappy. A lot of, a lot of the stink and all of that, a dead fit. Dave (11m 33s): Oh, right. Jerry (11m 34s): And, but he’d sit on an old cement dock and catch bullheads and sheephead freshwater drum and, and some bass. You get some bass and, and some perch. There was still, there was still smattering of different fish around. Dave (11m 48s): Wow. This is great. And so, and you mentioned a few on the book, so, and we’ve talked about that book quite a bit. ’cause that is a huge book. The what, what is the big, the first steelhead book you guys did? You and Rick did. Jerry (11m 59s): It was, yeah, I think we just called it Great Lakes Fly Fishing. Dave (12m 3s): Yeah. Great Lakes Fly Fishing. Jerry (12m 4s): Yeah. Yeah. Rick and I, at one point in all our discussions, I think it was in the early nineties, we recognized that this was a great resource. You know, I was working at Winston Rods at the time. Oh yeah. And then in early, I think in 1991 is when I started building bamboo rods with Glen bracket there. And Rick and I realized there was just a great resource throughout the Great Lakes. We’d been talking to different people in the different states, and there was steelhead in every river at the time. And one of the places that had a, a better history of, of steelhead was Michigan, of course. Jerry (12m 46s): And then, then there were remnant populations up in Lake Superior of fish that probably, that nothing was being stocked up in Lake Superior. And, and there were words coming from a lot of the north shore rivers that there were still steelhead up there. They were smaller fish, but they were linked to fish that were planted way back in the late 18 hundreds. So we embarked upon a several year mission to explore as many rivers as we could possibly explore around the Great Lakes. And, and our intention was to catch a steel head out of every river in the Great Lakes. But that never came to fruition because there were so many lakes or so many rivers. Jerry (13m 29s): But on the other hand, we, we explored a whole lot of ’em. I think we probably caught fish out of about 75 of ’em, which was pretty Dave (13m 36s): Wow. 75 out. How many, how many are there? Or how many were there then? Jerry (13m 40s): Oh, I, you know, I, that was a good question. I don’t know if I ever come up with the exact number, Dave (13m 45s): Like the bigger ones, right. Jerry (13m 47s): Yeah. There’s, there’s probably at least a couple hundred river streams that carried steelhead. And so I, I was charged with doing the western part of the lakes. And, and so I, a couple, I mean at least three or four times, I did the Lake Superior to North Shore, and I stopped at different rivers. I hooked up with a couple different guides every now and then. And not knowing really what we were doing at the time. There was, that was the thing. We were not only exploring rivers, we were developing techniques. The catches fish Dave (14m 22s): Right by with a fly. This was with the fly. Jerry (14m 24s): Yes. And at the time, in the early, in the mid eighties, I had started steelhead fishing on the West coast, and especially in Idaho. It was the Salmon River, And it was swinging flies back then. But we were told that it really can’t swing flies in mon or in, in the Great Lakes to catch a fish. You know? In fact, they’re never, a lot of, a lot of guys said, you’re never gonna catch a fish on a fly in the Great Lakes. It’s tributaries. And, and so we were fighting a lot of just local lore that it wasn’t possible. And so, but we kind, you know, we’re nim fishing for ’em. We didn’t really think in terms, because this, the water was a little confining on a lot of the, a lot of the rivers that we were just fishing and just nipping techniques and, and we were starting to catch some fish, you know, and said, bologna, you can catch fish on a fly. Dave (15m 18s): Right. Were you that early nipping, were you guys doing like eggs or stone fly? Jerry (15m 21s): Yeah, yeah, eggs. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then there was just a variety of blow bugs and, and as, as eggs and little flashy little things and Yeah. You know, and, and so that was, that was the original technique. And we were defy, essentially, I’ll have to say we were defying the odds because not many people were doing any of that. In fact, I don’t think anybody was doing it. Dave (15m 45s): What year is this now? Eighties. Jerry (15m 47s): This would’ve been the early nineties. Dave (15m 48s): Early nineties. Yeah. So early nineties. Great Lakes. Yeah. There’s not many people out there swinging, flies, flies for, or even doing any fly fishing for steelhead. Jerry (15m 56s): Not at all. Yeah. And then, and then it just gradually progressed. We, so I, I’d do some North shore rivers and I’d stop at St. Mary’s River and, and then I’d go and hook up with Rick and we’d hop in the truck and go, you know, so I would go to Western New York, which he was covering pretty good. And then he was covering the rivers up in Ontario that went into both Lake Ontario and Lake Erie from Grand River, the Maitland River, Saugeen River. And he was doing all of those. And then I’d hop in the truck when I’d get out there and do a lot of that with him as well. And then we’d go back to Michigan and we’d fish the Manistee and the, and the White River and, and p Marquette and, and Oay o able, and, you know, so it just, we spent probably six or seven years just doing, purposely doing research. Dave (16m 53s): San Juan Rod works started with a simple belief, great fly rods and gear shouldn’t cost a fortune as a family run company. They focus on building high quality fly fishing products that perform on the water without the premium price tag. You can try San Juan Rod works for 30 days risk free right now. And if you’re not satisfied, send it back for a full refund. You can go to San Juan rod works.com. That’s S-A-N-J-U-A-N, rod works.com. Fish to Fly Guide Service is dedicated to sharing the incredible fly fishing opportunities around Jackson Hole. Whether floating the Scenic Snake River in search of native cutthroat trout, or hiking into the mountains to explore pristine tributaries every day on the water is an adventure. Dave (17m 36s): You can join them for an unforgettable fly fishing experience in the heart of the tetons@fishtofly.com. And what were you doing? What was your, how were you making your money back then? Jerry (17m 48s): Well, I was, the best thing of this whole thing is when I joined up with Winston Rods in 1984, they, Tom, when I say they, it was Tom Morgan who owned it. Yeah. Glen Bracket was co-owner. And they were excited to, because they were expanding their, their workforce. They hadn’t, didn’t have many people working for ’em at the time. And they were excited to hire someone who was passionate about fly fishing. So, so that was one of the requirements is they, they said, we really would like you to do, you know, to fly fish. Oh, Dave (18m 25s): Really? That was it. That was part of the job. Jerry (18m 27s): Yeah. Get out there and do stuff and kinda lend some credibility to all of this stuff. And, and so for several years all I really did was wrapped rods at home and they’d gimme rods to wrap and, you know, the guides on, and then I’d wrap. So I had all of this latitude. I could wrap rods till two in the morning, which I did. So I would have the, the day to fish. And eventually they, they moved me in and I was, I do part-time work in the morning, not part-time. I was sort the managing the area, the coating area or coated the, the wraps. Jerry (19m 7s): And, but then in the afternoon, and I was a free to go fishing and still wrap rods at two in the morning. And so, you know, so I, it wasn’t sleeping a whole lot back then. And then, but it, it worked out really nice. And then when Glen got me into building bamboo rods in 1991, he kind of still, he encouraged me to do, you know, this tremendous flexibility in my schedule. And he, he enjoyed the fact that I was writing a book and, you know, so I give Glen all the credit in the world for encouraging this sort of off wow. Fashion. Yeah, it was, Dave (19m 46s): That’s really cool. Yeah. And it Jerry (19m 47s): Worked out really well. I Dave (19m 48s): Thought this makes a lot of sense. So you’ve got, and I’m looking at the book now. It’s, it’s Fly Fishing for Great Lake Steel at an advanced Look At an Emerging Fishery. That was the first one, because I think Rick came in and did one another book called Advanced, or there was another book out. I think Rick’s done a few, right? Yeah. Jerry (20m 2s): I, I forget. Yeah, he did it on his own, of course. Yeah. I sort of, as I faded more and I, I got more into, well, owning my own business, he, he kind of went off a little more on his own and updated that was that, that his Dave (20m 18s): Oh, that was the updated, right. So that was the, yeah, so we’re looking, so there is original one. Yeah. It Jerry (20m 21s): Was kind of not the same, but it was updated as far as the techniques and all of that kind. Dave (20m 26s): Yeah. All that stuff. Right. Now this is interesting. So basically you’re out there, you’ve, and we’ve heard this from a few people, you know, I mean, I always go back to John Gear Rock because he, you know, said this on the podcast when I talked to him a few times about why he, you know, got into fly fishing and why he did what he did. And he said it was mainly because his dad loved fishing, but he never had time because he was working all the time. And so he wanted to create a life where he was out there. And it sounds like you also had created that life, right? You figured out a way to fish all the time. Jerry (20m 53s): It was, and I think I came about at a time, you know, John Garak, the Ultimate Trout bu you know, I was independently doing the same trout bombing thing Dave (21m 4s): At the same time. Yeah. Really at the same time. Jerry (21m 6s): Yeah. So, in fact, I’m just reading a little manuscript of a friend who wrote his experiences with John ACH during that period of time, so Oh wow. Yeah. So it’s, it’s a nice little manuscript. Gotcha. Dave (21m 21s): So you’re reading somebody’s manuscript that they’re hoping to publish after you give him some feedback? Jerry (21m 26s): Yeah, a friend of Dale Darling, actually, his name is, and Dale is used to own a couple fly shops in Colorado, one in Longmont. And I met him through Winston. Dave (21m 37s): Yeah. This is interesting. I I love all this ’cause it sounds, you know, the more I love these conversations ’cause the more we talked, you’re, you, you’ve been around for so long, you’ve got all these stories and one of ’em is like the Winston, and we, I was just doing a podcast with someone who was describing the fact that he was talking about Bower reels and he didn’t know a lot about Winston, even though he worked for him, the history. But do you know a little bit, can you get shed some light on that history? I know I’ve heard Glen bracket’s name quite a bit. Were you there when Winston first kind of got going or did you jump on early on? Jerry (22m 4s): No, let’s see. Winston started in 1929. Dave (22m 9s): Oh wow. Yeah. Winston’s been around forever. That’s right. Jerry (22m 11s): Yeah. And Lou Stoner and a guy named Robert Winter were the original owners. And, and Stoner eventually bought Winther out, but the name Winston came from a contraction of their names Winther Winston. And Lou owned and ran the company until the fifties. He sold his share to Doug Merrick. And our, our, you know, they worked together and, and Stoner eventually passed and Merrick took out over, and then Merrick sold the company to Tom Morgan, who Tom was a native Montana, and he used to guide out of Ennis when he was a kid and went to California and chased a few things down there. Jerry (23m 2s): And met, apparently met Merrick at a certain point and thought he’d like, like to bring Winston up to Montana because it was, you know, that was a, Dave (23m 14s): That was the place, Jerry (23m 15s): The place to be, you know, not in San Francisco, which, that’s where it was. And Right. So Tom brought it up and Tom had this impeccable knowledge of fly rods at the time. I mean, what a fly rod should be. And it was at the time that he bought the company in like 1970, early seventies. And it was a time when composite graphite was starting to come around, but it was right in the height of fiberglass. And so Tom had all these ideas of what a good fly rod should be from his years of guiding. And, and at the time, he, Glen was working with them and during the transitional period, and, and Glen then I, from what I understand, got 25% of the company through flood equity and, and in the early seventies. Jerry (24m 11s): And, and then when they moved it up to Montana and little Twin Bridges, Montana, just down of 400 people, it just worked out real well. And that’s, I I ended up in Twin Bridges, like in 1983 because I wanted to fish the big hole river and be near the big hole river. And so we, that’s when I met Tom and Glen. And then in 1991, Glen and Tom sold the company to the present owner who is David Che from, he’s a Canadian from Toronto. And it more of an absentee owner though. I mean he, you know, which was a departure from the previous owners who were all hands-on owners Dave (24m 57s): And Tom Morgan. We’ve heard the stories on him. I mean, he’s well known about Yeah. Just that whatever he had. And then he eventually got into his own company right after he sold, or he, he was kept making rods. And that became a pretty famous story as well. But basically, essentially you’re in there with Tom Morgan, one of the greatest, you know, I, I think, you know, when people think about that Right. Bought Rod building. And so you learned quite a bit. And then, so talk about the sweetgrass. Where does that come to be? Where you, you’re involved in that Jerry (25m 26s): During the nineties? You know, the bamboo craze grew after the movie, A river runs through it. Oh yeah. It’s amazing. That river, that movie, the impact it had on, Dave (25m 39s): Oh, it was huge. Yeah. Jerry (25m 40s): And so bamboo enthusiasm grew from that point, because in the early seventies, bamboo sort of was a dying, not only a dying craft, it, the interest was dying on Dave (25m 55s): It. Yeah. There was nobody, ’cause you had basically, you had these fiberglass period, which were great, and then you got into graphite And it just got like everything I remember because then, and then the like, why would you need a bamboo rod? Right? You had these great graphite rods Jerry (26m 8s): And that was it completely. And, and so it, the movie just from a romantic standpoint, I’d say just stimulated an interest in the past. And, and Bamboo was a beneficiary of that. And so we at Winston started to make a lot of rods for that period anyway. And we still maintained a real flexible lifestyle. There was no question about it because a, a lot of bamboo rod making is hurry up and wait, you know, you Yeah. Do something. You do something, you glue and you have to wait on it. So, so the thing was, Glen was living in town. Jerry (26m 48s): I was, so there was always someone at the shop working at some time because there was always something to do. But there, you didn’t have to do it nine to five, you could do it eight o’clock in the evening till midnight or whatever. So it just, you know, it just was that type of operation and, And it worked out good again for me. And there was no, it worked out good for Glen. And, and, but somewhere in the early two thousands that we were getting, Winston had built a big factory outside of town, just on the outskirts, not outside of town, it’s just in a cow pasture outside of town. And there was rumblings that they wanted the bamboo department to come into the big building and that, because when they set up that factory, they also set up a time clock, you know, you punch the card and going in and you punch. Dave (27m 39s): Oh, wow. So you had a time clock now. Yeah. So you’re going from, you’re going from this hippie river bum, trout bum sort of thing back in the day. And now you’re coming in, they’re like, Hey, we’re gonna be clocking in now and doing all this stuff. Jerry (27m 51s): That was their intention. It wasn’t ours, so. Right. We resisted and, and just said, you know, you just can’t, you can’t build a bamboo rod on a time clock, you know, is what it boiled down to. And you know, it just has to kind of come from the soul, come from the heart. And as long as they’re getting done and out into people’s hands, what’s the point? You know? So, And it just sort of went downhill from there, you know? Yeah. And Glen, at one point had had enough of it, and he said, you know, I’m just gonna move, move on. You know? And, and that was like in 2005, late 2005, he decided to call it quits. Well, I was fishing, I was steelhead fishing in Montana at the time, or in, in New York at the time. Jerry (28m 37s): And I got a call and from Glenn and said, you know, I just quit. But, you know, and I was beyond flabbergasted and I Dave (28m 48s): Was p Right. You weren’t, you were surprised you weren’t expecting that. Oh, no. Jerry (28m 50s): And I was, yeah. And I, and I even talked to the, at the time, the CEO of the company, and I just chewed him out. I Dave (28m 58s): Said, oh, really? So yeah, you, you heard what happened then you had to call with him. Jerry (29m 1s): Oh man. I had chewed him out. Well, anyway, so at that point, there was another fellow working Jeff Walker, who’d been working for Glen with Glen for 20 years and myself. And then there was another fellow, Wayne Maka, who would help out upon occasion when we needed extra help. And we decided to all quit in solidarity with Glen. You know, we just said, you know, we’re just gonna go off on and do our own thing. And so we did, and we gave Winston a three month period where we kind of cleaned up all the odds and ends that needed to be cleaned up. And, and on February the end of February of 2006, our time at Winston was over. Jerry (29m 47s): But at the time, we had no plans. There was no plans whatsoever. And Glen started, as it turned out, there was this solidarity of people out in fly fishing world who were somewhat flabbergasted with, you know, with what just happened. And he started getting orders. At one point he had over a hundred orders on, on the books, Dave (30m 10s): On bamboo rods. Jerry (30m 11s): On bamboo rods. They, you know, if you ever get around a building and we gonna, now we wanna rod from you. Well, Glen approached the three of us, Wayne, Jeff, and myself, and said, you know, I’m getting all these orders and, you know, we could set up a little business type of thing if you’re interested. And Wayne wasn’t, he was doing his own thing. Jeff was semi interested, but he, he then after a little kind of just faded off, he didn’t want it to either. And I saw it as a wonderful opportunity. So, yeah. So we ended up doing all, it was in, shortly after leaving in 2006, we started the process. Jerry (30m 52s): We kind of got a business license and all that. By April, mid-April, we were officially Sweetgrass rods, and we just decided to come up with Sweetgrass rods, because I, we didn’t wanna make it the Glen bracket Rod company, historically speaking, every company that was named after a primary Yeah, Dave (31m 12s): They all had names. All, all the rod companies he worked for had names of people. Jerry (31m 16s): Right. And the thing is, other than Winston, a lot of, a lot of old bamboo companies just faded after the primary builder, Payne. And, and Oh, Dave (31m 26s): Right. Jerry (31m 27s): Phillips and all of those companies all ended up, once the primary builder was gone, yeah. You could never kind of pass it on and, and be a viable company after that. So we decided that if our mission statement was to be sweetgrass Rods and to have a company that would be a legacy company, that after Glen was gone, and I didn’t consider myself that significant of a part at that point, other than just kind of being his partner. But after, after he was gone and I was gone, that the company could be passed on seamlessly and still operate as Sweetgrass Rods. Jerry (32m 7s): And I, at this point, we are on track to do that. Glenn has a fellow David Serafin who’s working out in Livingston, Montana, and who is the heir apparent to the company. And hopefully that will be what will happen down the road. Wow. Dave (32m 26s): Yeah. And, and now you are basically still affiliated, but not connected at all to Sweetgrass? Jerry (32m 33s): The one major influence in my life that kind of changed the direction of my life was my wife, who, you know, we lived together in Montana for 30 years, and she passed away. She had Oh, wow. A LS and yeah. And she passed away in 2009. It was difficult living in a small town after she passed away. And I, you know, so Sweetgrass started in 2006, and I stayed till 2013. And, you know, I, you know, talked it over with Glenn and I went, you know, and we, I was training a fellow to take over for myself, and then I would leave. Jerry (33m 14s): And the idea was, you know, just to start kind of afresh somewhere else. I had, then I had met someone and we, I had this wild hair off my butt to have a ha build a little place in Mexico and go fish. Oh wow. Mexico. Dave (33m 31s): No kidding. Yeah. Jerry (33m 32s): So I ended up from a farm, had a little, little beach house built on the beach about 50 feet from the, from a bonefish flats and near Ishak, Mexico, just part the Belize. And yeah. So I went down there, we went, we lasted about 10 months. It, Dave (33m 54s): It was Oh, it didn’t work out. Jerry (33m 55s): Oh, yeah. It was a little too much of a stretch. Dave (33m 59s): What was the, was just the challenge of like getting there? Or was it, oh, Jerry (34m 2s): Just everything. Yeah. I mean, there was this little, a little Mayan town, which was kinda a little funky little town that had been somewhat destroyed by a, by a hurricane several years beforehand. And it was limping along and, and that was the main source of getting a few things. And then from there, the house was five miles up on the beach. So it was just a major, major effort. And I was pushing, you know, my late sixties at the time. Dave (34m 32s): Right. Things aren’t getting any easier at that point. Jerry (34m 35s): No, it just, you know, the fishing was great and, and I, that was the one thing I, I was able to, in my dreams, I wanted to be a Jimmy Buffett. I wanted to have my Oh yeah. Cars and fish, you know, live on the beach. And I did. So I can actually claim I did that for, you know, almost a year and caught fish on my own. That’s the other thing. I didn’t wanna have to go get a guide. So I was, had bonefish that were accessible to me right in front of my house. Oh, wow. But they were kinda like Spring Creek bonefish. They, I kind of got to know there was a pot of about 50 of them, and it just seemed like the, you know, they’d seen a lot of flies over years. Jerry (35m 19s): So, so it was just sort of, it was tough to get ’em, but it was fun, you know, tra you know, every couple days or every day I’d go out for a couple hours. And then there was a few slews lagoons that had snook and ba tarping and that were all accessible by canoe. And I did that and, and Barracuda. And, and the only thing I, I did, I hooked every now and then a permit came by. I did hook permit. I, I was fortunately never got a permit down there, but I was able to get all this other fish and a few other. Dave (35m 57s): What were you thinking at the time? Were you thinking kind of like you were gonna be the, like moving down there like full-time? Well, Jerry (36m 3s): Yeah, the idea was, you know, I actually had, we had a little guest house built next to it, next to our prime house there. And also a little, what we thought would be a, possibly a t-shirt shop, something like that, you know? Yeah, sure. You know, and, and kind of just hang out. That was the original plan. But as it turned out, just the effort of just living there was a, you know, And it just, and you didn’t realize you don’t wanna send a bad impression of the people, but, you know, you just couldn’t let things, you couldn’t leave your house, you know, without worrying about someone walking in and getting some Dave (36m 44s): Oh, really? Yeah. Jerry (36m 45s): And so there was that aspect of it. And then my partner, she got sick and then you realize that, boy, if you get sick down here, it’s not anything to deal with, you know? So, and the closest, the closest places were, were you could get the groceries you needed was at 40 some miles away. And it town awa and a mile we would go once a week, which was 120 miles away. And so, so it became evident that, you know, just a lot of, yeah. Dave (37m 22s): How does that compare to when you think, ’cause it sounds like it was just an amazing amount of work doing that when you compare it back to the start of this episode when you were talking about that cabin off the grid in Idaho was, you know, was that at the same age, say you’re in your twenties, right? This probably would’ve been a lot easier. This this thing Jerry (37m 38s): E Exactly. I mean that, I think what I was trying to do is relive those days. That was the whole point. And those days, you know, that even living off grid way back then was difficult, but doable. Dave (37m 50s): Yeah. But what about if you were in your sixties trying to live, do that Idaho thing off the grid? Jerry (37m 55s): Oh, it would’ve been tough. I mean, all that. Yeah, you’re right. It just, it, I think there was a point at which, you know, and I gotta say, you know, some of it was just influenced by the fact that, you know, I was kind of living a nice good life without all the hassle, you know? Yeah. And, and I didn’t, I didn’t factor in all the hassles. Dave (38m 16s): Yeah, you, you, you were, you were, it’s not taking it for granted, but you know, we do that. Right. You’re someplace, someplace. I’m not sure where you are now, but you’re at that place in, it’s probably a pretty good place. ’cause you got a lot of luxuries. Right. And life is fairly easy. Is that kinda how it looked at the time that you didn’t realize that? Oh Jerry (38m 33s): Yeah. I mean, because we’d been gone down there a couple, two or three times to that same area. And all you do is, you know, and stayed in a bed and breakfast And it was just great. You know, you had everything you needed and, you know, you just sort of sorta didn’t have to deal with the day to day life that you do when you’re there, when Dave (38m 53s): You actually, yeah, you’re down there all the time. And what is, you mentioned, you know, Lonnie Waller earlier too, he’s a person that, you know, I think it’s interesting ’cause he, I think he might have moved down south too, but he was a big steelhead guy. You know, I remember watching his videos and his books and stuff, but talk about that back on the, the book there. So you guys worked with him on one of his books that he did? Jerry (39m 12s): Yeah. So the interesting thing with Lonnie was I knew, I know I still know him, I still know Jack Waller, his brother, who was this offbeat character who lived in Virginia City, Montana. Jack is this very philosophical theological man of the earth type of guy. He lived in a teepee for a while. Oh wow. And yeah. And then, and so I knew Jack, and then I met Lonnie through Jack. And then there was this cross linking when we were researching that book. And I don’t know how I got, I can’t remember the specifics of how we would’ve talked to Lonnie about Steelheading, because at that point he was really into, you know, the Steelhead guru at that time. Jerry (39m 60s): He was one of the more notable guys. Dave (40m 2s): Yeah. He was working for, I think like a scientific anglers or something like that, doing those videos. Yeah. Jerry (40m 6s): Yeah. And that was really put him on the map was he was doing videos before anybody ever thought of doing those types of things. And some of them were pretty spectacular. And so I think we, I utilized Jack’s connection to talk to Lonnie. And Lonnie at the time was, you know, he was always a real gracious guy. And somehow he, when the whole Great Lakes thing really started to flourish, he went out a few times to do some Steelhead symposiums. And Rick met him at one of those symposiums, and we approached him somewhat cautiously. Jerry (40m 47s): We didn’t know how he would accept our offer to write an introduction to Great Lake Steel a but he did, he graciously accepted it. So, and then subsequently we published a book, which was a collection of stories, which a neat collection of stories that Ani wrote called River of Dreams. I think that’s what we, that was what it was. And it did real well. Yeah. It just, it sold, you know, 3,300 copies or something like that. So that, yeah, that was our connection. And I still, heck, I just got a email from Jack the other couple weeks ago, and a little story story with Jack is he, he got married to a professor from Montana State University in Bozeman, and he had a little girl when he was 63. Dave (41m 41s): Oh wow. Jerry (41m 42s): And her name was Ruby, this cute little gal. And, and at the time, I, it was when my wife was kind of ill and, you know, going downhill. And I, I’ve off and on played guitar and always, and myself is writing songs and I did write some songs, you know, kind of, kind of goofy songs. But I wrote ’em and, and I did write a song for, for Ruby, her name was. And we subsequently a guy who was a music producer actually. And he, and he was from Virginia City and he put together a neat little CD of local talent. And I did a couple songs on it, and one of ’em was, and so I, and I just found out recently that you can dial up Ruby on Spotify or Apple Music or something. Dave (42m 33s): Oh, you can, you can get it right now. Jerry (42m 35s): Yeah. So I guess so. But anyway, you know, the story is Ruby is now 20 years old And it sort of this genius little girl now young lady. And so it’s just kind of this, it was this sort of like string of connections that all Dave (42m 52s): That’s amazing are Jerry (42m 53s): Coming together. But Dave (42m 54s): There it is. There it is Ruby. I see it. Ruby on, on Spotify, Jerry (42m 58s): So Dave (42m 58s): That’s amazing. Yeah. Jerry (42m 59s): And she grew into the song. She, that was what it was so funny. I always say she became the song as is what it boils down to. Dave (43m 7s): We’ll put a link in the show notes. Yeah. Here’s a little clip, Jerry, I’ll just let it play. Is, is this, it, it falls 3 (43m 12s): Down from the tree, but sometimes there can be a surprise. Dave (43m 20s): Is that, is that it? That’s it, Jerry (43m 21s): Yep, yep, yep. Dave (43m 22s): Amazing. There you go. Okay, well we’ve got that, we’ve got that now in the show notes. We’ll put a link to that and Oh, that. Jerry (43m 28s): Yeah. Pretty funny. Yeah. So Dave (43m 29s): This is good. So you got, that’s really cool. And, and so this is, and it’s awesome because this goes back to Lonnie, which he, yeah, I remember I’ve talked about this a little bit, but I remember one of those videos, he was on the Deschutes swinging and run that I’ve phished before and actually caught a really nice fish and, you know, splash, what do you call it, splasher in the tail off. He had all these, he was super excitable. Right. And he’s out there. Oh yeah. Yeah. It was really cool. So that’s the Lonnie connection. So he, and he is down, I think he, didn’t he move down south somewhere? Yeah. It seems like Hess not really in Yeah. Yeah. He Jerry (43m 57s): Moved to a, what we would say, an ex expatriate enclave of sorts. You know, a place where a lot of Americans and Canadians and Europeans. The idea behind that is that they could somewhat be a self-contained and even self protected area. And I, it was fairly close to Mexico City, but I think the town was called San McWell. I think it was a sort of an artist type of gathering. Dave (44m 30s): Yeah. And what do you, what do do you mean self protected? Well, Jerry (44m 33s): You know, they, they could, you kind of watched out for each other. You didn’t have to worry about, like we did, you know, a house in the middle of nowhere in Mexico. Dave (44m 42s): Oh, right, right. Gotcha. Jerry (44m 44s): You subject to whatever Dave (44m 46s): Yeah. Random stuff happening. Right. Because there are, yeah, because you’re talking Mexico, the drug cartels. Right. There’s even all that crazy stuff. Jerry (44m 53s): Yeah. All sorts of possibilities. And you know, I want, you know, again, the police weren’t all that, you know, Dave (44m 59s): They weren’t up to, up to the law all the time, I’m guessing. Yeah. Jerry (45m 3s): So, so there were a lot of things you felt like you were at, at out flapping in the wind when you were in Mexico. And, and, and that was somewhat taken care of because whether they had their own kind of little security system, I had no idea. But that was the idea of kind of having a bunch of like-minded individuals living in a general area. So, so yeah. And Lonnie, you know, again, passed away in the fall, unfortunately. Dave (45m 30s): Oh, he just passed away this, this last fall. Jerry (45m 32s): Yeah. Yeah. Dave (45m 33s): Oh, I didn’t know that. Oh, Jerry (45m 34s): You didn’t? Yeah, unfortunately he did. And even more unfortunate, according to Jack, he had, he developed dementia, so it was kind of kinda Dave (45m 42s): Tough, you Jerry (45m 43s): Know, it was too bad. And I talked with Jack about it a bit, And it could add something to do with, you know, he had that terrible plane crash going into the Baine somewhere. I forget when that was. I think it was after we hooked up with him. I can’t remember the exact date. And he did, boy, he suffer his head and, you know, suffered great trauma. So it could have been all linked to that, but it was, you know, a sad ending to a noble soul. I thought just, it just really made me feel, you know, kind of down in the dumps about that. Dave (46m 19s): Yeah, that is, that is pretty tragic. Yeah. Jerry (46m 21s): So especially a guy who was, you know, so he was, you know, he could have been, you know, one of those snooty guys, but he wasn’t, he just kind of, kind of, you know, was ingratiating to everybody he met and encouraging to everybody who needed encouragement. So, so always, I kind of will always remember Lonnie from that standpoint. Dave (46m 45s): Yeah, no, I think I, I definitely, yeah, I think just the movies, I always go back to that, the videos, you know, that was so, so powerful. But yeah, I mean, you’ve in your own right, you know, written a number of books. Maybe talk about that a little bit just on your writing. You know, I mentioned at the start the kind of the soulful voice of fly fishing literature I’ve heard, but what has, what has writing meant for you? Like, how do you look at writing and do you, are you still writing now? Yeah, Jerry (47m 7s): I am actually, I hope to come out with one last book at, at the end of this year. But yeah, the writing, I was kind of interested when I lived in my little cabin up in Idaho. I read a lot at that time. I read Louis Lamore Cowboy Stories and, and Rex Stout Mystery stories. But I also read a lot of fly fishing stories, Robert Weber at the time, and Roger Ha Brown and, and Patrick McManus and, and a few others. And, and for whatever reasons, especially McManus, I just kind of liked his stories And it was kind of fishing outdoors. Jerry (47m 53s): And he wrote Last Laugh, a column for Outdoor Life for many. Dave (47m 58s): Yeah. And he was kind of a like comic, right? He had a lot of comedy in his writing. Yeah. Jerry (48m 3s): Light, light hearted. Yeah. He kind of little quirky stories and, and so, you know, you kind of make you chuckle. So, so yeah, I, I kind of was interested in, in that, but I never thought about writing until I, when we moved to Montana and my wife was into, we were both into Birdwatching and she was more so because she came from a bird watching family and she resurrected the local Audubon chapter, and I was able to, well, we had a newsletter and she said, why don’t you write something for it? Jerry (48m 45s): And I said, okay. And I wrote a monthly vignette on a local bird, and I kind of made, tried to make it creative just more than just what they ate and what they looked like, and, you know, kind of just kind, kind of give a little tale about ’em. And the local newspaper, which, which Southwest Montana newspaper, Montana Standard, it was called out out of Butte, the editor of the magazine or the newspaper called me once and said, yeah, would you be interested? Because she was a birder. And she said, would you be interested in doing a weekly article about a bird? Jerry (49m 26s): And I said, oh man, you know? And I said, well, yeah, I great opportunity, you know, and, and so I did, and I, I draw, I was, at the time, I was doing a little drawing and, and I draw a bird and do a kind of a three to 400 word vignette of, you know, with little folksy tails that I could find about particular species. And I did that for eight years, never got paid. But the thing was, it forced me to write every week. And at that time we were, my brother and I were doing the Steelhead book, and then it just sort of got me into thinking, well, heck, you know, maybe I can start doing some of those stories that I like to read, you know, like the McManus stories. Jerry (50m 11s): And, and, and I had to accumulated in my mind quite a few little possibilities over my, throughout my travels. And that’s what inspired coming out with at the River’s Edge, which was in 2002, I believe. And the good thing about that, you know, was when it was published, the Montana Standard, because I had done all of that, those over the years, and I had a bunch of followers following my third article every week, which, you know, a lot of ’em were like, I’m sure little old ladies who put, you know, seed in her bird feeder. Jerry (50m 53s): Right. And, but the Standard did a full page with a colored photo of me standing next to the big Old River review of that book, and geez, did I sell a lot of books. Oh, wow. So, so I always say to people, if an opportunity knocks for whatever it might be, take advantage of the opportunity, you know, don’t get paid for it. It somehow comes back to you. And I’ve always been, I’ve always encouraged people to, you know, to not be picky If something, if, if something comes along, take it and run with it. Jerry (51m 33s): And I did. And that was it. It’s kickstarted me into writing, which then I, after that at the Rivers Edge, I released three other books. But also, it just opened up a lot of other writing opportunities along the way, whether it was articles or other books, things like that. So, you know, and then just recently as guys doing a, opening up, starting a, another online magazines, I don’t know how many online magazines there can be, but on the other hand, he wants me to write a, you know, a quarterly article. So, you know, so the opportunities keep coming, you know? Yeah. And it, so something you can do when you’re old like me. Jerry (52m 15s): So that, that, as I always say, and a lot of people will ask me. Yeah. And I’ve done that with music. When I used to teach, teach Kids, I taught school for three years in Salt Lake City, Utah. And we started a little, me and another fellow started a music club, and at least eight to 10 of those kids learned to play guitar. And several of them became professional musicians. Hmm. Not, they were not famous professional musicians, but, you know, they, they’d do Holiday Inns and things like that. So, so like I said, you, you know, if these opportunities come along, grab hold of ’em and you never know where they’re gonna leave. Jerry (52m 59s): And that’s even with me, I try to encourage people, you know, if they need, especially with writing, I try to, you know, I’ll read, if someone sends me a manuscript, I’ll read it and I’ll try to get’em hooked up with wherever they can get hooked up with. So, so it’s just, you know, one of those things you can kind of just keep passing on and hopefully be beneficial to making someone else’s life and come true, I guess, is what I say. So, Dave (53m 27s): Yeah, that’s great. I mean, it’s cool to hear that because you have all these experiences in your life and, you know, and stories. That’s what’s amazing about the stories. I mean, we’re doing a little bit of that, telling some of that. Oh yeah. But it’s not, it’s not like a book, you know, it’s not like a book that you could sit down and, you know, relive, you know, put yourself in the play like you did. You know, that’s a cool thing, right. Joe Brooks, you go back to your influences. You had this person before you were writing Right. Heavily, you were learning from him, and now people are doing the same for you with your stuff. Yeah, Jerry (53m 55s): Exactly. And, you know, just sort of pass it on. And that interesting thing about Joe Brooks is just a little suck, like a lot of Yeah. Make, get these little stories. As I was recently, last fall, I went, went out for a beer with Joe Brooks, his, his nephew. Dave (54m 13s): Oh yeah, his nephew. Yeah. Jerry (54m 15s): Yeah. So, so I was able to, he was in the area. Joe, Joe Brooks is actually from this area, so Oh yes. Okay. Now, I, I mean, I kind of all, I, I, all of these different threads that kind of tie back to Joe Brooks and I am living in northern Maryland right now, just right down the street to three blocks is the Chesapeake Bay and, and Northern Chesapeake Bay. And so I have that connection with Joe Brooks too. He, last night when I was fishing, the Susquehanna, Joe Brooks used to fish the Susquehanna. So, so it’s just all of these kind of connections Dave (54m 53s): In the same area. Yeah. We had, we did an episode with, with Joe Brooks, not the Joe Brooks, but episode 71. We’ll put a link in the show notes with the person you’re talking about. His, I think it was his cousin, or not his cousin, but his nephew, I believe. Right? Jerry (55m 5s): His nephew, yeah. Dave (55m 7s): Yeah. So we did a whole episode and he, because he wrote, yeah, he wrote the book and then we talked, And it was really interesting because it was pretty deep. Joe Brooks’ life is really interesting because, I mean, it’s at one point in his life with alcoholism, it got so bad that he was like living off the streets. Jerry (55m 21s): Yeah. That thing. Yeah. And fly fishing saved his life. Dave (55m 26s): Yeah. And fly. Exactly. And so it’s a really powerful story, but he told that story and so we’ll put a link to that one. But I’m kinda the same way, you know, I mean, or at least here when you think about this, it’s, you know, like Lonnie, we talked about. I mean, it’s tough because some of these people that paved the way for all of us and help with stories, you know, are slowly going away. So I think I would love to talk more with somebody could tell maybe Lonnie’s story, you know, I think that would be a kind of a cool episode to do as well. Yeah, Jerry (55m 53s): It would be. I wonder who would be out there that could give you a little background on that. Dave (56m 1s): You think you need a bush plane to fish Alaska’s legendary waters. 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I am sure there’s plenty, there’s plenty of people that knew him, probably fished with him since he’s fished all over the, you know, everywhere. But Jerry (57m 9s): Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that would be a, that would be a, you know, a really good story. Yeah. Yeah. Dave (57m 13s): Definitely. Jerry (57m 14s): You know, would be a, some insights into his background. Yeah, I, I was just thinking, there’s, the interesting thing is there, there was the golden period of fly fishing that sorta ended when the bamboo rods started to fade away. Dave (57m 33s): Oh, is that it? So when is that, when, when the golden period end? Jerry (57m 36s): Oh, I would say, you know, the golden age. I mean, I’m just throwing it out there. Is that, that it was, is probably the early seventies things just sort of died, you know, fishing was sort of, sort of, you know, in a limbo state, I would have to say. And then, and I think Wes Jordan said something to that effect, you know, when he passed away that, you know, I forget the, it was of that sentiment and, and, and then, you know, it just sort of waffled along and, you know, people like me kind of stumbled into it. John Garak stumbled into it, and there was, you know, a lot of these in Inbetweeners, you know, eventually, you know, the Kathy Becks came in and then Lonnie Wallers, and they all, all of them somewhat, you know, were the link between that period of time where fly fishing faded and what I call the new or the Renaissance age, you know, the nineties Dave (58m 34s): The river runs through it was part of that, right? Jerry (58m 36s): Yeah. Yeah. The river runs through, it started the whole Renaissance, but the people who were connecting it were the Lonnie Wallers, the, you know, and of course the lefty was, yeah, there, he was sort of a thread that strung through all of it, but, you know, but there was just this, you know, group of people that just sort of emanated before fly fishing was real famous, you know, just kind of were just kind of hanging on and, you know, doing this sort of esoteric pursuit with no really intention other than doing it, you know, and then eventually the doors opened to kind of profiting off it to a certain degree. Jerry (59m 16s): And, and we all did to a lot of, to that point. Yeah, Dave (59m 20s): That’s right. It’s pretty cool to see how it worked because, and we talked about that with the Great Lakes. That was really interesting too, because the whole spay, you know, we just had an episode this week that came out with George Cook and our in the bucket series that, that we’re doing. And, and I’ve heard some of that where he was talking about, yeah, it’s the history, right? I mean, the spay, it didn’t get started in the Great Lakes until that period that you talked about. You guys started writing that, those books and all of a sudden like, bam, this thing, whole thing changes. And now you go back there and it’s pretty popular, right? Jerry (59m 50s): Oh, it is. Yeah. What’s interesting, I just don’t go off on another little tangent here, but yeah, the neat thing about working at Winston and then at, I’d always get these hot tips, and a lot of times I was able to hop on them. Well, Ken High used to be is Dr. Slick. Dave (1h 0m 8s): Oh, yeah, Dr. Slick. Sure. Jerry (1h 0m 9s): Yep. And he used to go up to British Columbia, steelhead fish in a lot. And he came into the shop once in the nineties. And I got to know Dr. Slick, pretty good at Ken High over the years. And he told me that you, you know, because I would really started to really get into the steelhead fishing in the mid eighties and in Idaho and particularly, and he encouraged me to go up to British Columbia. He said the fishing, he said it was down in the eighties, but it’s coming back and, you know, not too many people are known about it. So I went up in 94 fish for, I drove up and fished for eight or nine days, and there wasn’t hardly anybody up there because fishing hadn’t, hadn’t been, you know, hadn’t been good apparently. Jerry (1h 1m 0s): And, and I caught some fish. I was pretty excited. Dave (1h 1m 4s): Were you up on the Skinna? Jerry (1h 1m 5s): No, I, I went up at Bulky. Dave (1h 1m 7s): Oh, the bulky, yeah. Jerry (1h 1m 8s): Yeah. And found some neat runs and kind of frequented them and, and yeah, they had a really neat week and even accidentally started hooked up with another guy. I just, just kinda, yeah. Hooked up with another guy, a friend of mine who we, we were up there together and, and we, we were swinging some green butt skunks and stuff like that, and we weren’t doing real well. And, and, and so Dick decided, you know, he, he had a Waller waker and he, he decided to just skate a fly up top and within a less than an hour he had a fish. Jerry (1h 1m 49s): Well, I started skating Waller waker up top, and I, I got a fish and we never turned back, never looked back. We always then continued to skate. We got way more activity up there on a surface. And we did, you know, just swinging wet flies. And we always, you sat around the campfire and talked about why, but, you know, it could go on on that. But on the other hand, during that period of time, it wasn’t like everybody, ’cause there wasn’t that many people, but they, nobody was using a spay rod, nobody up. And by the time I’d gone, gone up there at, in 2000 year, 2000, I would say it was 10% spay rods. Jerry (1h 2m 32s): And Mike, Matt Maxwell was a guide up there at the, he, he had spay roding, somewhat quirky, but I think he had some rods made for him by somebody. And he was the one guy, you know, pushing spay rods up there. And, and, but by 2000 or 2000, everybody was using rods. It just was sort of this revolution, spay rod revolution that was unfolded within that period of time. And again, going back to the Great Lakes, I was interested in a smaller spay rod for the Great Lakes. Jerry (1h 3m 12s): Talked to, talked to, at the time, there was this pompous guy who was the general manager at Winston, and I said, you know, we really should come out with a spay rod for the Great Lakes. I, he, he said, why would we come out with a spay rod for fishing in a cesspool that was a Oh wow. Word. Wow. And I said, man, oh man. I said, you just, that’s crazy, right? Yeah. He, you know, he just started chuckled off. He said, what kind of business can we do there? Geez, no vision. No vision whatsoever. And at the time, a friend who he has eventually, he since then passed away. He was Rod Designer, Sam Druckman and Sam came up with the two B two X series, which was actually a boron, a four piece with boron butt. Jerry (1h 4m 2s): And, and actually that was probably the, the second best series of rods ever Winston ever made the first best. And still as classic as Tom Morgan’s, I am six series, yeah. I call it the Coca-Cola rods. You just can’t do anything better than what those rods were. But Sam came up with this interesting, real, I still fish with him B two X series, and, and I talked to him about 11 foot rod for the Great Lakes and a two-hander, and that, and the day that, whatever, I don’t know why that general manager left, but the day he left, Sam came to me and gave me this 11 foot rod that he’d been working on. Jerry (1h 4m 47s): And it was a single handed, I still have it. And it’s a single handed 11 footer that’s wor it’s just really neat functional rod. But, and then he, then he converted into a mini bay. And that rod sold so many rods is sold pieces throughout the Great Lakes, but people onto the Deschutes, every place was, you know, using the, the 11 foot smaller space. That was the thing I found with spay rods is that when in the first few years everybody was using these 15 footers, and I was watching these people trying landing fish with a 15 footer. It looked like, it looked like they were hunching them in. Jerry (1h 5m 28s): I mean, we, yeah. Like, you know, they were just sort of outta touch with reality. And so eventually the rods got down into that 12 to 13 foot range, which was a lot more manageable, but these little, little mini space, you know, and a lot of the smaller rivers in, in the Great Lakes and even the West coast took on, and I still, that his, that general manager’s words still echo in my head, you know? Yeah. Cesspool the great right. Cesspool and, and now it’s a couple billion dollar industry and a couple Great Lakes, so, oh, yeah. And that was the other thing. I, I think Rick and I eventually when I, we, as I said in the earlier, we were fishing the bead heads, you know, little esda eggs and bull bugs and, and we were fishing the Manistee River, one of those on one of our journeys. Jerry (1h 6m 26s): And we were swinging egg sucking leaches at the time. I forget the water was coming up, it was raining. Geez. We, one afternoon we hooked fish after, couldn’t land ’em because there was this big log we couldn’t get around. But, but, but we hooked one fish after another. We landed a few. But, you know, and it was, I think that was the dawning of the era of, Hey, you can just swing flies on these fish just like you do on the West Coast. And we never looked back, is what the point, the thing was. How was that? Yeah. It was just, it was sort of this eye-opener for us. We just accidentally said, well, you know, geez, we bought into the fact that you couldn’t catch fish. Dave (1h 7m 8s): You couldn’t catch fish. Yeah. And what was the reasoning behind that? Why, why do you think Jerry (1h 7m 11s): People thought, I have no idea. I have no idea. You know, the thing, and it was even the Michigan people, and, but this was, this was when we were in the initial stages, the way they used to fish, they didn’t use fly lines, they just used straight mono and a little baggy, a little kind of nylon filled weight of bbs. And they’d put a, you know, so it was this sort of like a pencil pencil weight, but it, you know, it was kind of a made up little baggy of a shot that they’d put, and then they’d extend eight foot liter beyond that and a fly. Jerry (1h 7m 52s): But essentially they were dragging the bottom with these flies. And that’s, that was the way we were told. That was the only way you could catch a fish on a fly there, you know, because for whatever, Dave (1h 8m 3s): Right. Down and dirty down to the bottom. Jerry (1h 8m 6s): Yeah. And, and I, we watched them sometimes and, you know, a lot of the fish they hooked were all hooked on top of it, you know, it just made no sense. And so, again, we went back to, well, we would, we’re gonna just, you know, nim fish for ’em. And, and that, you know, obviously was working. But so that refuted that the fact that you couldn’t catch ’em on a fly, which they were telling us that there was just no way that would work. And then we gradually got into just accidentally, but a hundred percent committed then to swinging the flies somewhere in the late nineties. Jerry (1h 8m 47s): And with that came what I always thought, with the Great Lakes, I’ll Give Great Lakes. And the people really got into it after that, a whole series of flies that, that were unique to the Great Lakes. And, and they had, and they were, my brother was riding, you know, in the front end of all of that, using bunny strips. Just a lot of maroo, just a lot of flies that had a lot of action. And as compared to the West coast, were, a lot of the flies we were using out there were just real static, you know, just green butt skunks, you know? Jerry (1h 9m 27s): Yeah. Dave (1h 9m 27s): Traditional, like traditional wet flies, which was just a little, little tiny little wet fly. Jerry (1h 9m 33s): Yeah. And they were just sort of static. They didn’t have that much flow on ’em, you know, general practitioners. And they were just, and so that was unique to the Great Lakes. But then I started using some of, you know, and my green butt skunks out west, I started tying instead of just a a a wing of, of a white white Dave (1h 9m 57s): Cocktail Jerry (1h 9m 57s): Cocktail. Yeah. And I start using, I’d start using bunny strips, white bunny strips, and it give more Dave (1h 10m 4s): That’s the wing. Jerry (1h 10m 5s): Yeah. And give it a lot more life. And so I think a lot of the, a lot of the Great Lakes flies started showing up on the West Coast a little with a lot more action. I know that’s sort of my interpretation. If I could see, I could, the one unique aspect that I kind of bring into this stuff, I, after I started Sweetgrass, I didn’t steelhead fish as much, but, but, but for 20 some years I sta I really fished steelhead fished a lot. The one thing I did do over the years was I, I didn’t know too many people that fished the Great Lakes and the West Coast and British Columbia. Jerry (1h 10m 50s): And I also had, I spent six weeks over in Russia. Wow. So I’m kind of a, like a unique person because I’m not sure how many people have done all, all of those. Dave (1h 10m 59s): No. There’s not too many people We’ve talked to a lot, we’ve done a ton of steelhead episodes, but I don’t think there’s too many people that have Yeah. Have, I mean, just that the Great Lakes to the West, I think most people haven’t done that. You know, I think that it’s always you, you know, the, you know, all the stories of whatever, you know, the great lake Steelhead not being steelhead. I think that that’s kind of, I think it’s behind, I think it’s like, Hey, there’s steelhead. It’s just a different way to fit, you know, a different area, you know, a different way to fish. Jerry (1h 11m 25s): Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And they’re just in there. The thing is, they ha have at least the connection the steel had because they’re genetically steelhead. Dave (1h 11m 35s): Yeah, exactly. Jerry (1h 11m 36s): You wanna make that point. But yeah, so I was, you know, the one thing I, the only place in this north of had, the only place that I haven’t caught a steelhead is Indiana. Dave (1h 11m 47s): Oh, Indiana, right. In Indiana does have a steelhead. Yeah. Jerry (1h 11m 50s): But one or two steelhead streams. But I, I’ve caught ’em in every province or in every state and you know, California and Oregon and Washington and Dave (1h 12m 1s): Right. Wow. So you’ve caught, you’ve pretty much caught fish in every state where they live. Jerry (1h 12m 6s): Yeah. Except Indiana. Dave (1h 12m 8s): Except for Indiana. And then, and then, then the province. You’ve obviously BC you’ve been up there. Jerry (1h 12m 12s): Yep, yep. So it’s, so it’s just sort of an interesting, I, I kind of have a unique perspective of a lot of, a lot of this. I’m never gonna be known for my steelhead prowess, but I, but I did, I have to say I did fish in a lot of different steelhead, you know, steelhead venues for sure. Dave (1h 12m 31s): That’s awesome. Well, that’s a, I think that’s a perfect segue to take it out here in our kinda, this is like our travel segment here. And today, I’m just gonna give a shout out. This is presented by Mount Waters Resort. We’re actually doing a trip to, for Atlantic Salmon. So that’s something I haven’t, it’s been on my bucket list we’ve talked about. But we’re gonna be heading out to the East Coast to Newfoundland. And the cool thing about this, this trip is it’s Mountain Waters Resort is the same resort where Lee Wolf used to fly. It was his resort right back in the day. And he used to, he really popularized Atlantic salmon fishing up in newfound out to this area. So I’m gonna be fishing, kinda like you did with Joe Brooks, you know, in your area. I’m gonna be fishing these places where Lee Wolf literally at the same cabin locations and stuff. Dave (1h 13m 11s): So I’m pretty excited about that. And the cool thing, your brother too, also I was gonna mention might be going on this trip with, I’ve been talking to him to see if he wants to, to join us up there and, and chase these fish. ’cause he’s a big, obviously he’s got Atlantic salmon, but, so I want first start off with a shout out to Mountain Waters Resort on that. And then, yeah. And for you, what is your, I mean obviously you’ve talked travel this whole, this whole episode. Do you, was this, when you look back at your, say your 25-year-old self or you know, that early ages, did you foresee, how much of this did you foresee? Did you think this is the way it was gonna turn out with all the travel Jerry (1h 13m 44s): Wood? No, I never really even thought about, you know, that aspect. It’s just one thing, one thing unfolded to another and then one thing led to another. And like you said, Atlantic salmon. I drove from Montana to the maritime states, maritime provinces nine times from Montana to Atlantic salmon fish. Dave (1h 14m 7s): So at maritime provinces. Are those, what, what are those? That whole east, Jerry (1h 14m 11s): Oh, I, you know, so I’ve caught Atlantic salmon and Quebec and Newfoundland and in Nova Scotia I did fish the Mihi in New Brunswick, but I, I didn’t catch a fish there. But yeah, I just, well Dave (1h 14m 28s): You’re a good person to ask about this because you’re in the, you fish for summer steelhead, right? Winter steelhead are a little different, but you hear summer steelhead are a lot alike Atlantic salmon. What is your take on Atlantic salmon versus the summer steelhead? How similar are they? Jerry (1h 14m 43s): Interesting. Yeah. Nice. My one summer steelhead, I guess it’s couples experiences were on Dean River. I was able a couple times in, in I think July. And then fishing for Atlantics. I do a couple times in Quebec in June. And yeah. So those two would be, timeframes would be very comparable. I just, you know, the interesting thing I would have to say, I always said with Atlantic salmon, I say they tend to, I won’t say delicate isn’t the word, they tend to fight a lot more majestically, where steelhead fight more doggedly. Dave (1h 15m 28s): Oh, okay. Jerry (1h 15m 29s): Might have to say, you know, yeah. Know that that would be the, if I have to classify them. But when I think about it, yeah, they, those two never really did think about it. But those two would be exact con comparisons. Dave (1h 15m 46s): Yeah. That’s it. And so the, the Atlantic salmon you caught, were you catching those? What patterns were you fishing for those? Jerry (1h 15m 53s): Oh, green Highlander is one that I liked the most. I probably, you know, I, I, you know, when I get a fly I, you know, other than changing every now and then, if it’s catching fish, you know, I don’t change it a whole lot. But, you know, I like the green butt stunk out out west. Plus a couple of the fly, especially in the fall flies that somewhat imitated the October cadi type of fly. And then, then the green butt skunk, and let’s see, the black bear green, but black bear I think was another one I used to fish for Atlantic salmon and the green green Highlander. Jerry (1h 16m 35s): And I forget if they, you know, doors of few other ones and some of the wakers that I used. But usually it was just kind of riffle hitch, some of those patterns and stuck with those. Dave (1h 16m 49s): Gotcha. It seems like, you know, there’s, that’s always the, we talked about that a little bit, just the challenge of so many cool places to go. Not enough time. Do you still have a few places that you’d like to get out to that you haven’t been to? Jerry (1h 17m 2s): Oh boy. Yeah. I kind of, yeah, as it turned out, you know, I, yeah, I had really kind of planned on doing a lot more and then 2020 came along and, you know, Dave (1h 17m 12s): What would be your advice for somebody listening now maybe is younger and thinking like, oh man, I want to do as much as possible. What would you tell them? Jerry (1h 17m 22s): Boy, you know, to a certain degree I do see the people who are doing that kind of stuff are the ones that are doing the guiding, you know, that Yeah. That seems to be, you know, if you’re a younger guy and you’re ambitious enough and all of that, it’s, it’s tough. Any of these things are tough to do, affordable, affordably. So what I do notice is the ones that are doing them are the guy Are the guy, Dave (1h 17m 50s): Yeah. The guy. Because the guides are able to dial in their own fishery, and if they get really good, then they’re known for it. And then they take their clients off and go travel on like hosted trips around the world Jerry (1h 17m 60s): And they can do other things. Yeah. So they can offshoot it. So that, that would be the difference between nowadays and the trout bumming days. I always say that trout buing is not as affordable these days. Dave (1h 18m 16s): Right? Yeah. Trout buing is not as easy. Well, trout bumming probably is doable in some Yeah. Like, you know, permit bumming or, you know, bonefish bumming. Right. All that stuff is kinda spendy. Jerry (1h 18m 27s): Yeah. You just can’t up and do it, you know, I, and I, and I always said, that’s why I went to Mexico. I just wanna do stuff on my own. And you, as it turned out, I spent a lot of money to do that, where I, I felt if I would’ve had the opportunity to do it over again, I would use the money that I spent my on on that place on the beach and just gone, gone down to Mexico for a month every year. Dave (1h 18m 56s): Yeah, right. You Jerry (1h 18m 57s): Know, so, so there there’s sort of a, a lesson learned there, but, but yeah, it, it’s, it’s, it’s tough to do, find a lot of doit yourself types of places. And that’s what kind of always was always my driving force, you know, to find the doit yourself places. And, and they’re still out there. I mean, that’s, you’re still out there. It just, and, and now here I am, talk about where I am now. I didn’t really, I’m three blocks away from the water here. And when I first moved here 10 years ago, there was stripe bass all over the place. Dave (1h 19m 36s): So you are still in the Buffalo area? Jerry (1h 19m 38s): No, I’m in northern Maryland. Dave (1h 19m 41s): Oh, you’re in Maryland, okay. Jerry (1h 19m 42s): Yeah, just, just as a three blocks away from, it’s called the Northeast River, but it’s a very upper, upper edge of Chesapeake, it right near the Susquehanna River. And this is, was, And it still is a prime spawning area for stripers, but the striper population has gone down tremendously and, and unfortunately just poor management again. And I’ve noticed it in my, in, in my fishing where I can normally, when I used to, it’s just three, three years ago and be beyond that, I’d be able to pop in my kayak and just kind of puts around all this water that’s just right available to me. Jerry (1h 20m 30s): And during the right, and I only go out for two or three hours and during, during the right tide I catch, you know, two to four fish, you know, And it, And it is more of a rearing area, so you we’re not, I’m not talking about huge, you know, just nice size. They’re just nice fly rod fish, you know, it’s like 16 to 24 inches, you know, sometimes bigger, sometimes smaller. But, you know, and last year doing the same thing where first few years I was catching a few hundred, you know, just putzing around like that, you know, last year I caught seven. Oh wow. So, you know, fishing the same, same intense, same stuff, the same areas, same water, same, you know, and, and it just really, really sad to see things going downhill. Jerry (1h 21m 23s): And, and the thing that kind of still makes it worth going out is you never know what you’re going to hook. There’s tidal, like we call ’em tidal, large mouth, large mouth. ’cause the tide comes up, the large mouth kind of swim with the tide. And so you, you’re not finding ’em under lily pads and stuff like that, you know, they, they kind of move with the tide. So you never know where you’re gonna find the, the large mouth. And, and then there’s snake heads, you know, I just don’t catch many snake heads, but I’m always looking for ’em and introduce species. And then you got small mouth and, and, and my whole intention when I retired, and that’s why I moved to Mexico, was to fish for non trout species. Jerry (1h 22m 6s): I just kind of wanted to just try some new stuff. Yeah. New, new species and new techniques, new everything. And, and, and then other part of it is I had, you know, had my fun in the sun with, with a trout and steelhead and, you know, give other people the opportunity. And, and so, but all, all this is leading to is that, you know, I’m just fishing mediocre water. I’m not fishing elbow to elbow with anybody. There’s hardly anybody fishing any of the water, fish. And it’s nice to be out there and just kind of not be crowded and catch a fish now and then. And I kind of, the pisser about the whole thing, I said just, I don’t need 20 fish striper days. Jerry (1h 22m 50s): I just like the opportunity to catch some stripers, which have sort of been taken away from us by poor management as it boils down to a lot of, a lot of technique, a lot of things that have led. That’s Dave (1h 23m 5s): A bummer. That’s a bummer. Well, I think that’s something we could probably keep up on. I would love to hear more, maybe on the next one we could chat to you more about the kinda stripers where that’s going. I, I would like to take it away on kind of our random segment. You mentioned the, the guitar. Let’s just take it back there and we’ll take it out here on, you know, your music. It sounds like that’s a pretty big part. You mentioned that Spotify song you have or the song on Spotify. What is your music? How would you describe it? Who are your influences? Is that something you do regularly? Jerry (1h 23m 33s): Oh yeah, that’s good question. Yeah. Well, you know, I grew up during the Folk rock era. Dave (1h 23m 42s): Oh yeah. Like Bob Dylan. Oh, Jerry (1h 23m 44s): Yeah. Yeah. So it was all, you know, the Dylans, the Jim Roches, the Harry chickens. And, and that’s kind of what I always, at one point in my life, would’ve loved to be one of those guys, you know? Right. You know, but traveling, you know, I at one point, what kind of fantasized being the rambling man, you know, kind of barred driving around and singing here and singing there. I never got to that point, but I, but I was, you know, I, I I played a lot of, you know, learned. And Dave (1h 24m 16s): Have you played, have you played in front of some audiences? I, Jerry (1h 24m 18s): Yeah, I did, but you know, and I’m, I’m just not an in, that was the other thing I realized. I’m more of a private guy. I am not an guy, you know, so I never was really comfortable doing that. And so, but you know, I’d, you know, and some of my initial writing was just writing songs. I just write, you know, some folky folk rock types of songs is what I use. And to a certain degree, I think my, when I’m rereading or rewriting some of the stuff that I write for my stories, I kind of have a little rhythm in the story that it is probably imperceptible to people reading it. Jerry (1h 24m 59s): But it, to me, it’s just sort of, there’s a almost a song like quality in the, in the, in what I write. It just sort of, sort of, you could, I’m almost thinking that you could put it to music, you know? And so, yeah. So that was, I kind of got into, into like Martin Guitars. So I bought, at one time I had 10 Martin Guitars, you know, was the only one of the things I used to collect a little of. And I still have a couple of them, but I really, my hands with, after building so many rods, my hands are really kind of arthritic. So I am playing, playing just as, as lot more difficult now than I was. Jerry (1h 25m 42s): So it sort of faded out of my, out of my life. But there was, there was a period of time, especially when my wife was dying, where I, I was, spent a lot of time at home and, you know, played a lot of music and was writing at that time too, so, so yeah, it’s been a big in, it was a big influence in Dave (1h 26m 0s): A lot. It was music is power, but what is the, you mentioned Jimmy Buffett. Is there somebody a tune we could leave maybe a, a musician or a song that we could leave in the show notes as we take it out here? Jerry (1h 26m 11s): Oh, geez. Yeah. Let me, Dave (1h 26m 13s): Is Jimmy Buffett, was he one of your, like, did you like his music? Oh Jerry (1h 26m 17s): Yeah. Come Monday it All right. You know, type of thing that, yeah, that was one of the big, you know, that was the type of type of music I liked, you know, the kind of emotional kind of that grabs you. But yeah, there was one i, I wrote about it. It just, it’s a Jimmy Buffet, Zach Brown did it. Oh, Dave (1h 26m 39s): Here, here’s one. I’m just looking at Zach Brown collaborating with Jimmy Buffett on the hit song Knee Deep. Jerry (1h 26m 43s): That’s it. Dave (1h 26m 44s): Oh, awesome. I, we had a great song. Okay. So we’ll get knee deep in the show notes. So right now people can, everybody listening can listen to that as we take it and all do the same. Yeah, Jerry (1h 26m 53s): Yeah, exactly. Cool. Dave (1h 26m 54s): Well this has been great, Jerry. I think we could probably hold this one there for now. We’ll, we’ll send everybody out to sweetgrass roz.com and then they could also find you on Facebook just search and ru Jerry cui fly Fishing probably, or something like that. Jerry (1h 27m 6s): Yeah, yeah, that would be, and if anybody’s interested in the books that, you know, they’re, they’re on Amazon too, so Yeah, Dave (1h 27m 13s): They’re all on Amazon. Yeah. We’ll put links to all your books as well on the show notes so they can take a look at all those and Yeah. And check out some of that soul. Right. I, I feel like the soulful writing, the soulful bamboo, the Soul and the bamboo rods, right. It’s, it’s all kind of a similar, and the music feels like that’s kind of your thing, right? Jerry (1h 27m 30s): Yeah. It was all, it all kind of all tied together. You know, I’ve kind of always looked at, you know, my life to a certain degree is, there was something that kind of led me along, you know, whether it’s the Great Spirit or whatever it was, it seemed like, you know, something came along whenever at a time when I needed it to come along, you know? Dave (1h 27m 52s): Yeah. It worked out. Sounds like it worked out to me. Sounds like you’ve had a pretty amazing journey along the way. So, so we’ll, we’ll send everybody out there and then, yeah, Jerry, this has been great. We’ll, just until we talk to you again on the next one, we’ll look forward to us following you and then keeping in touch. Yeah, Jerry (1h 28m 6s): I appreciate it, Dave. This was great to talk. You know, I, I, like I say, I, I like to talk and when I used to, when we used to have that shop, you know, when I worked, that’s what we did. You know, people come in and I was able to work and talk at the same time, Dave (1h 28m 23s): So yeah, you got the best. Yeah. Jerry (1h 28m 25s): So it worked out nice. And that’s kind of what I miss. I I, that’s if I miss anything in my life now, it’s the fact that I don’t have that kind of intermingling with angler like I used to. Yeah. Which, which I used to really, really like. Dave (1h 28m 41s): Yeah, definitely. You know, I, I think that’s, that’s what’s cool about the podcast is it allows me to do the same thing. Yeah, Jerry (1h 28m 46s): It does, it, it it’s a, at least kind of is that connection. Dave (1h 28m 50s): Yeah. It’s not, not totally, you know, in person, which is all always the best, but, but it’s the second to that. But cool, Jerry. All right, well, we’ll be in touch. Thanks again and Jerry (1h 28m 58s): Well thank you Dave. Dave (1h 29m 0s): If you get a chance, check in with Jerry today. You can do that. Go on Facebook, track him down. We’ll have a link in the show notes. Also, if you want to go to Sweetgrass Fly Rods, you can go check ’em out right now. See their amazing work and, and do that. If you get a chance, if you haven’t yet, subscribe to this podcast. You can follow the show on your podcast of app. And wanna give one shout out before we get outta here. We are heading to the Missouri the Big Mo this year with On Mark Lodge. If you’re interested in that, send me an email, dave@wew.com or you can go to wet fiw.com/missouri and, and we’ll follow up with you on availability there. Hope to see you and talk to you there. Dave (1h 29m 41s): Thanks again for checking out the show today. Hope you have a great morning. Hope you have a great afternoon or a fantastic evening if it’s evening, and we’ll talk to you on that next episode. Outro (1h 29m 50s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly, swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing.com.

 


jerry kustich

Conclusion with Jerry Kustich on Bamboo Rods, Steelhead, and Sweetgrass

Jerry’s journey proves that fly fishing is more than a sport—it’s a way of life shaped by people, places, and stories that stick with us forever. From steelhead in New York to skating flies in B.C., from handmade bamboo rods to heartfelt songs written for friends, Jerry reminds us what matters most: staying curious, passing it on, and making time for the water. Be sure to check out his books, music, and Sweetgrass Rods to dive deeper. Thanks for joining us—until next time, keep your line wet and your stories flowing.

758 | Colorado Fly Fishing with Alex Xenie Hall – Nymph Fishing,  BC Steelhead, Low & Clear

Alex Xenie Hall — legendary Colorado fly fishing guide, steelhead nut, and self-proclaimed trout bum — takes us deep into his world, from the Upper San Juan to the far end of the Babine River.

Hit Play Below to Listen to Alex Xenie Hall on Colorado Fly Fishing. 

 

 

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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

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In this episode, we dig into how to nymph a pool with an indicator, why the shoulder season is a goldmine, and the old-school strike indicators Alex Xenie Hall still swears by. You’ll hear his full nymphing setup, how to read a tasty run, and the trick to spotting fish through those “fish windows” in the water.

By the end of this episode, you’ll have a nymphing setup from one of the legends in trout fishing! Let’s go!

Colorado Fly Fishing, Alex Xenie Hall

Show Notes with Alex Xenie Hall on Colorado Fly Fishing

Alex Xenie Hall’s love for fishing started with a little bit of frustration. His dad was an avid fisherman, but he says he was often left at home as the younger kid. And that only made him want to go more.

After moving to Colorado, fly fishing became part of everyday life. He started out with a spin gear but slowly switched to fly fishing. These days, fly fishing makes up 90% of his time on the water.

Low & Clear

Alex was part of a group of four friends who all loved fishing, but he admits that he and JT Van Zandt were the most obsessed. Alex met JT Van Zandt in Pagosa Springs back in the ’90s. JT was working at the town’s only fly shop and heard about Alex being a “local legend”.

Their buddy Tyler, who used to guide with Alex, was wrapping up film school and had this idea—why not film Alex and JT doing what they do best?

Watch the official trailer of Low & Clear here:

Low & Clear came out in 2012, and it’s been a huge part of Alex’s journey. He says people still reach out to him on social media to tell him how the movie inspired them.

Chasing Steelhead in BC

Steelheading was always on Alex Xenie Hall’s radar. After reading and studying everything he could, he knew BC was where the real steelhead magic happened. And once he got there, the fever hit hard.

That was back in the ’90s. And he’s made around 25 trips, nearly every year except when travel shut down during COVID or when BC closed the rivers. He mostly fishes solo these days, swinging and nymphing for steelhead.

Colorado Fly Fishing, Alex Xenie Hall

Colorado Fly Fishing

Alex guides on the upper San Juan River in Colorado, not the famous Tailwaters down in New Mexico, but up in the headwaters where it’s more private and harder to reach.

Back in the ’90s, he used to guide on the New Mexico Tailwaters. It’s a consistent fishery, but it meant driving 75 miles each way. Eventually, he backed off from it and stayed away for years. Recently, though, he fished it again and noticed some changes, like bigger brown trout showing up.

Colorado Fly Fishing, Alex Xenie Hall

While Alex has explored different parts of Colorado, he focuses on his home area, especially the upper San Juan. He also loves the Gunnison area, which is only about three hours away. Regarding guiding, Alex prefers a seasonal approach (only about 50-75 days a year) to still have time for his own fishing.

Alex says the upper San Juan is a classic freestone stream where stoneflies rule. You can catch fish on dries, but nymphing is your best bet for steady action, especially since the bigger trout hang deeper.

Alex Xenie Hall

Alex Xenie Hall’s Nymphing Setup

Alex likes to keep it light and sensitive. He uses two pulse indicators, spaced about one foot apart. Some people may not like this set up because they’re not reusable (well, at least if you’re someone who breaks down your rod each day). But Alex says they do a great job of detecting soft strikes, especially when using small flies.

Alex typically fishes a stonefly and egg pattern combo, aiming to get deep enough to reach the fish. Here’s a breakdown of his setup:

  1. Indicators: Alex uses two Pulse indicators, spaced about a foot apart and placed roughly 18 inches from the fly line.
    • They’re sensitive and cast better than bulkier indicators like Thingamabobbers.
    • He’s also tried Oros indicators and says they’re an improvement.
    • Not reusable if you break down your rod each day.
  2. Leader Setup:
    • 6 to 8 feet from the indicators to the first fly (heavy stonefly).
    • Tapered down to about 4X, or 5X in low water conditions.
  3. Tippet & Second Fly:
    • About 18 inches of tippet from the first fly to the second fly, usually a beadhead or egg.
    • Most of the time he’s running a stonefly to an egg rig.
Alex Xenie Hall

Colorado Fly Fishing: How Alex Xenie Hall Reads the Water

  1. Alex like to focus on deep runs and pools. Bigger fish prefer these areas because they offer better real estate (good depth, cover, and food).
  2. He respects anglers who work riffles and pockets (like Czech nymphers) but says it’s just not where he prefers to spend time.
  3. For him, fish in shallow water usually have to weigh food value vs. safety. Most big fish don’t take that risk.
  4. In Colorado, birds are a major threat to trout, especially in low water. As a result, fish stay in deeper water where they’re safer.

More Nymphing Tips from Alex Xenie Hall

  1. Depth & Weight Are Key – It’s all about how deep your flies are and how much weight you’re using. Alex doesn’t over-adjust his rig. He focuses on getting a clean, natural drift.
  2. Fishing in Summer vs. Winter – In summer, fish are more willing to move out of their way to eat a fly, even from 2–3 feet away. While in winter, your strike zone shrinks. Fish won’t move much, so you have to drift the fly right by their nose.
  3. When to Adjust Your Rig? – If Alex knows a fish is there and it’s not biting, he’ll start making tweaks. He’ll try changing the depth, swap to a lighter dropper fly, or make small adjustments to the weight or the position of the indicator.
  4. Reading the Water – Alex doesn’t even use polarized sunglasses much. Instead, he looks for “windows” in the water (clear spots where you can suddenly see the bottom). The more time you spend on the water, the better your eyes get at finding those little clues like structure, depth, fish holding spots.
  5. The hardest part of nymphing for beginners is imagining what the flies are doing underwater. Once you get it, it becomes second nature. But it takes time and practice to really see it in your mind.

Connect with Alex Xenie Hall on Instagram @alexxenie

 

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Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below

Episode Transcript
Dave (2s): Do you consider yourself a nfer or a swinger? Do you love dry fly fishing or do streamers get you more fired up? And do you love to focus on one thing in fly fishing, or are you more a jack of all trades? I found today’s guest in a movie documentary about BC steelhead fishing, and Today we hear the rest of the story. By the end of this episode, you will have a nipping set up from one of the legends in trout fishing and another tool in your toolbox as you move forward this year. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. How’s it going? I’m Dave host of the We Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid, grew up around a little fly shop and created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts out there. Dave (46s): Alex Xenie Hall, legendary Colorado Trout Fishing Guide and Self-proclaimed trout bomb. Steelhead Nut is gonna take us into his world of the Upper Sand Juan. And we’re gonna talk about the other end of the Baine River. For steelhead, we find out how to fish a pool with a nymph, an indicator why the shoulder season should definitely be on your radar, and which old school strike indicators he really loves. We get into that, the exact setup for nipping with these indicators and what you should be looking at in a tasty run, how to find these fish in pools. Plus, we’re gonna find out how to see fish into fish windows in the water so you can spot and catch more fish this season. Without further ado, here he is, Alex Xenie Hall. Dave (1m 27s): You can find him at Alex Xenie on Instagram. How are you doing, Alex? Alex (1m 32s): Oh, doing good. Thank you for having me. Dave (1m 34s): Yeah, yeah. Thanks for coming on here. I’m excited to talk to you. I think like a lot of the great things out there in fly fishing or just around the world, word of mouth is a lot of getting the word out there. And I heard, I’m not even sure now who told me about it, but Low and Clear was a movie, a documentary you were on that was really awesome about a place I love Up North, you know, on the in steelhead country. But also you have a bunch of experience guiding your, I’ve heard you be called a legend before, you know, so you’ve got this legendary stats as well. So we’re gonna talk about that and some of your guiding in in Colorado and around the country. But before we get there, take us back to fishing. I always love to start really quick. What’s your, how’d you get into it? What’s your first memory of fly fishing? 0 (2m 11s): Well, my first memory of fishing, my father was a pretty avid fisherman and I was the younger son, so I got left home a lot, which didn’t sit well with me. Yeah, that was my first, yeah, my first instinct of fishing was I want to go and I can’t. So, and then from there it just kind of led moving to the, you know, the Rocky Mountains living in Colorado. It, it’s kind of natural to, you know, fishing is available. And so I spent a lot of time just, you know, out on the rivers and streams and just learned as I went. I had a few mentors here and there. I mean, definitely the, you know, nudge. ’cause I started out fishing, spin gear and stuff and yeah. 0 (2m 52s): Gradually moved towards fly fishing. But yeah, it’s been nice to do. I keep an open mind though. I still do both. Yeah. But fly fishing is 90% of what I do. Dave (3m 2s): I was gonna say, it seems like in some areas around the country you hear about fly fishing is more the predominant, you know, like for example, we’re heading over to the East coast to fish for Atlantic salmon and, and there’s nobody gear fishing over there. There’s no conventional fishing. It’s all fly. Right. But some places you go and there’s a lot Is Colorado, do you still see a lot of people spin fishing versus fly 0 (3m 21s): A fair amount, but I would say the fly culture is pretty strong in Colorado. I mean, it definitely, I mean, like a place I’ve recently have been to Pyramid Lake in Nevada, it has a very developed fly culture and gear culture that coexist very well, is what I find interesting. Yeah. It’s nice to see, you know, people get along even if their methods are different. Dave (3m 43s): Yeah, exactly. Well, we’re gonna get into some of your methods and some of your guiding, because I wanna talk about that. We have a bunch of listeners in Colorado and around the west, so I wanna talk there, but low and clear the movie. I want to talk about that because I think that is a good, you know, juxtaposition as well, like putting you and, you know, JT Van Zant. Right? The, it’s really awesome because the story is like him, the spay, we have a lot of Spaying Lu as well, but he trying to get a fish on the spay. Right. And he struggled and you were out there, I think Nipping talk about that. How did that movie come to be? 0 (4m 13s): Well, the movie, there was four friends. I mean, JT and I were the more serious fishermen. Tyler, one of the producers of the movies, he’s a pretty serious fisherman. He used to guide with me and the fourth Khalil, he was around, but probably not as fishy. But we all knew each other and they, they knew the chemistry between JT and I, how serious we would get on our fishing and stuff. And I think they were finishing up film school and kind of looking for a project to do. So it just sort of, it sort of came together real, you know, just without a, a tight plan, oh, let’s just film these guys and see what happens. It’s, it’s gonna be good. Yeah. So Right. And they just went from there, you know? 0 (4m 53s): Yeah. Dave (4m 53s): Where’d you guys go? Where, where, describe it a little bit so people that haven’t seen it there. Where, where were you at and what were you focusing on? 0 (4m 59s): Well, we focused a little bit on j t’s life in Texas. I mean, he primarily guides for red fish and salt water species in the flats. And then I do the trout thing here in Colorado. And he, JT has also lived in Colorado at different times and spent quite a bit of time trout fishing with me. So, I mean, he knows it real well. And then, yeah, steelheading has been, you know, it had been on my radar as I grew up as a fisherman. And eventually in the late nineties, I’ve got to the point where I could make a trip and go to British Columbia. And that was the thing. I wanted my skill editing to be in a special place. And, you know, from reading and studying, I knew that British Columbia was probably where I would get the best experience. 0 (5m 40s): And yeah, it’s, the fever took hold, as they say. Dave (5m 44s): Yeah. And do you go up there regularly? Is is that a place you’ve been up to many times? 0 (5m 48s): I’ve been, I’ve made about 25 trips over Oh, wow. Almost every year except for Covid and a year that they closed down and Oh yeah. It’s, you know, I’ve tried to make it every year, but it, the challenge is there. It’s, it’s, you know, it’s expensive and it’s not easy. Yeah, no. And the steelheading gets more and more popular. It’s, you know, the guiding has gotten heavier up there, and so it’s, yeah. I mean, yeah, I hate to miss a year, but sometimes you do. Dave (6m 14s): Right. And were you up there when you go up there now? And what’s your technique on the steel heading up there? 0 (6m 20s): I swing and nymph and generally fish by myself. I have a few friends. I mean, I, I was guy, I went with a lot of guides in the beginning and, you know, learned what I could from ’em. And I’m at the point now where don’t, don’t need the guiding as much. I mean, there’s some places I would like the access of course, but it, it allows me to stay up there longer, two to three weeks if I kind of do my own thing versus going, you know, a week at a lodge and boom, you’re done. And on the, on the way home. Yeah. It’s always nice to have more time, you know, I mean, really you feel like about a week into it, you’re kind of back on track, you know, and then all of a sudden it’s time to go. Dave (6m 59s): I agree. Yeah, we’ve been up there a few times and yeah, it’s always nice to get the, the two or three or weeks or even more if you can. Yeah. 0 (7m 6s): It protects you from weather and I mean, all, you know, gives you a down day if you need it. I mean, stuff breaks up there invariably. I mean, you need to fix something or just need a day to regroup, so it’s nice to have time on your hands. Dave (7m 19s): Nice. And then, and over to your, the Colorado stuff, what does that look like? Are you kinda, what’s your home water? What areas are you guiding there? Oh, 0 (7m 27s): I’m up on the upper San Juan River. I mean, you’ve probably heard of the Tailwaters in New Mexico. Pretty famous tailwaters, but the headwaters is quite a bit more private and harder to access. So through smaller private land leases and stuff like that. I tried to get on some of the headwaters. I mean, I spent seven years guiding on the Tailwaters back in the nineties, and it just, it’s a long distance drive, you know, 75 miles each way. And I mean, but it is a consistent fishery. And so it’s, I started there and then I really shied away from it. And just recently, I, I went back and fished there, but I mean, I’d avoided the place for years and years and it, it’s changed some, there’s a lot more bigger browns in there these days and more pressure. 0 (8m 12s): But I think I might end up fishing there again, not guiding per se, but Yeah. Yeah, I’m looking to, you know, hopefully spend a little more time down there. Dave (8m 21s): Down there. Yeah. What and what is on jt? Where did you, have you known him a while? Where’d you meet him originally? 0 (8m 28s): I met him here in Pagosa. His mother has lived in Pagosa for quite a few years, so probably over 20 years. Oh, okay. So he was up here living for the summer working, and he decided to work, And we only had one fly shop in the town back in those days that was in, in the, God would’ve been in the nineties. And yeah, he was working there and he heard about the legendary fishermen of the town. So he, he wanted to meet me and yeah, one day, one day I walked in the shop and he is just like, Hey, you wanna go fishing? And kind of, we just, yeah, let’s go fishing. And kind of from there, we, we spent quite a bit of time, you know, together during that summer and fished a lot. 0 (9m 9s): And then he moved back to Texas and he would always come up every year. So, though, so, I mean, lots of trips frequently, but then as he got older and got more and more into the salt water, you know, then we started drifting apart a little bit. Yeah. And then, you know, having children, that’s the big separator. Yeah. I can’t think of how many buddies I’ve had that once they have children, it’s just, that’s it. Yeah. I mean, no, you know, unless you’re the favorite uncle and make a huge effort, you’re just kind of out of the picture all of a sudden. Dave (9m 40s): Right. Yeah. The kid factor is huge. It’s definitely, that is a challenge. So you’ve managed to basically, I I, we’ve, you of course, the trout bu word I think is great because of gear rock. Right. And he’s up to Exactly. You know what I mean? I bet that’s essentially what you, you’ve this life you’ve created, right? Is that what, what would you, how would you describe your life? Because it seems like, you know, there’s all these words, legendary, you know, trout bomb. Did you plan this originally? Or if you look back at it, 0 (10m 5s): I didn’t plan it, but fishing is always featured heavily in my, you know, big life decisions. I think I chose not to go to college right away. I, you know, I told my mother, oh, I’ll wait a few years. And of course, that turned into many years. And yeah, I think just being close to good fishing and fishing has been at the forefront of my brain, which, you know, good or bad, it is what it is. Yeah. Dave (10m 33s): That’s awesome. Well, you know, John Gerich, you know, RIPI mean, he, I remember we’ve had him on a, on the podcast a few times, and one of the things he mentioned was about his dad, that his dad loved fishing, but because he worked so much, he almost never got out. And he said that a big part of becoming, like he called him, you know, trout bum, was that he didn’t wanna be like his dad. And so he built this life around fishing. And it feels like that that’s kind of the same thing you’ve done, right? You’re, is that kind of how it looks for you? 0 (10m 59s): Pretty much, yeah. I mean, my dad, he, he got time sometime to fish, but yeah, he had a lot of other passions, and so, yeah, I think I took it to the next level. And I mean, my dad, he passed away early in life, but before he did, I, I think he realized what fishing meant to me and where it was taking my life. I mean, I, yeah, I, I would’ve liked to him, him to have watched low and clear though, and seen that next stage of what I was doing. But no, he, he, he knew. Dave (11m 27s): Yeah, he knew is, is low and clear. Did that, when that came out, did you see a, a big, you know, outreach of people? Or what did that look like? 0 (11m 36s): I did, I mean, yeah, in the beginning, I mean it, and then even through the years, I mean, even, yeah, now I, someone will just reach out to me on Instagram or something outta the blue, and they’re like, you know, that movie really took me, you know, inspired me to do something. So, I mean, it’s a good feeling. Yeah, Dave (11m 51s): Because that was what, like 10 years ago or something like that? 0 (11m 54s): It came out in 2012, so yeah. 13 years. Yeah. So time goes quick. Dave (11m 59s): Yeah, it does, it does. Well, I wanna talk a little bit about your guiding, because I think that’s, you know, getting a few tips and tricks outta yet for sure will be cool today. But maybe talk, you mentioned a little bit the upper San Juan. Have you fished everywhere? I mean, Colorado wise, have you fished all around that state? Is that something, or do you focus your areas kinda in that San Juan area? 0 (12m 19s): I focus at home because, I mean, yeah, it’s just, you know, time and funds. I mean, I always try to fish closer to home, but now I have a great passion for the Gunnison area, which is Oh yeah, only about three, three hours away. And yeah, untold opportunities there. And really Colorado, I mean, there’s a lot of water in this state, and I’ve dabb dabbled here and there. I know the southwest probably the best, but now the state has grown so much. I mean, there’s a lot of waters I still want to go to, but I realize it’s, you know, it’s not quite gonna be the same as what it was 20, 30 years ago. Dave (12m 53s): No. Just ’cause more people, or, or is the fishing actually getting changing too? 0 (12m 58s): Fishing changing because of people and just Yeah, just the influx of people. I mean, Colorado got really busy in the last 15, 20 years, and so it, I mean, it’s good and bad from a guiding aspect, you need business. But that’s always been kind of a, a, you know, a problem for me is my own fishing versus guiding. Right. Dave (13m 18s): You know, 0 (13m 19s): And some guides don’t have that problem. They just dive in and, I mean, they’ll guide 2, 250 days a year on a, a place and just no problem. I’ve never been like that. My guidings always been kind of seasonal, 50, 75 days a year max. And it just, it’s just the nature of the beast. I mean, like right now we have great spring fishing, but there’s zero people around that are interested in taking the plunge. Dave (13m 43s): But why is that? Why is it just ’cause it’s kind of random this time of year, 0 (13m 47s): Little random, the tourists just aren’t here. And the fact that we’re not a destination destination, you can’t, you know, it’s just, it’s hard to convince somebody to come here in a shoulder season, you know, even though if they’re willing to try, you know, they might get into the fishing. They really want, I mean, it’s, but most people, you know, their thought of a guided fishing trip is gonna be during the summer, you know, the hatches are good and what have you. But, but personally, I love spring fishing. I mean, it’s, you know, Ming and streamers and just seeing fish that haven’t been pressured for a while too. I mean, it’s more people fishing in the winter than they used to, but the fish still, they get a break. 0 (14m 27s): I mean, and I feel like in the spring, you’re kind of seeing the river, you know, reborn, things are starting up again. And that’s what I enjoy about it. Dave (14m 35s): Yeah. What is that, the spring fishing time? When does that kind of start as there, I guess that’s changing too, right? With the changes in climate, but it was 0 (14m 42s): Typically, yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, with global warming. I mean, this river typically for years, mid-March, but now, yeah, the last four or five years, it’s been more like mid-February. So yeah. And we’re, we’re looking at significantly low snow pack this year. I mean, we’re really, we’re 40%, which is concerned. Oh, wow. Yeah. So, you know, it leaves you a little worried about the summer. But I mean, I’ve lived here long enough that we’ve seen similar conditions before And we seemed all, we always bounced through with rain and what have you. But, but it is concerning. I mean, yeah, you wonder, as the west heats up, how many fisheries will be lost over the years. Dave (15m 20s): Right. Yeah. That’s the question. Do you, do any of the warmer water stuff? Have you, do you, are you have any interest in the, the, you know, the, all the carp and all, any the warmer fish? 0 (15m 30s): I enjoy carp fishing a little bit. I do a little bit of guiding for pike. I do like pike, which are, you know, cold water, warm water. But yeah, different niche. And yeah, I mean, I enjoy fishing for pretty much any species, but I would say I specialize trout and steelhead for most of what I do. Just, just where I Dave (15m 48s): Live. And you have, I mean, that’s interesting about Colorado is you have this love of steelhead, it sounds like, but you have to travel quite a ways for that, right? But you have the Colorado, what’s your closest steelhead? Have you mostly gone up to BC or are there other areas you’ve kinda looked at? 0 (16m 2s): I, I did try Idaho in the beginning. Yeah. I caught one steelhead in Idaho. And I have seen lately, it seems like the clear water. I mean, this year particularly, the clear water was good. Seen a lot of big fish. So, I mean, that’s something in the future I would like to learn that because yeah, it is, it’s a little more accessible, a little closer and a little more affordable. But yeah, now BC is really where I’ve, you know, yeah, two to three weeks a year is all I can spend, but every year that I can. So it’s been pretty consistent. Dave (16m 32s): Yep. Is is it the, the two weeks over there, two or three weeks, is this a, like later in the fall sort of thing? Or are you going earlier? 0 (16m 38s): I usually prefer November. ’cause I mean, the classic steelhead season is September and October, but with this warming weather, the guides have started to push into November a lot more than they used to. Which, you know, it’s, oh, you can’t blame ’em guy’s gotta make a living. Right. But I do. Yeah. In the time that I’ve been steel adding up there, I’ve seen the pressure increase considerably. So by going late season, I’m always protected by that a little bit. I mean, even this last year, a friend of mine up there, he is like, yeah, he goes, you wouldn’t have believed the bulky in September and October. He was like, he said, it was just almost not worth doing. So, Dave (17m 15s): No kidding. Just ’cause it’s so busy, just the 0 (17m 17s): Volume of boats. Yeah. Yeah. It just so much traffic, you know? And so it, yeah, I’m, I’m kind of glad I haven’t experienced that, you know, I mean, there’s the odd, the odd day in the late fall where you’re like, there’s a lot of people around still. But in general, I’ve been lucky. Yeah. I mean, there’s days where you don’t see anyone, which, I mean, that’s almost a fantasy, but I like to get it if you can. Yeah. Dave (17m 41s): Can you find that in Colorado when you’re fishing in the upper San Juan, can you find places where there’s not a ton of people? 0 (17m 46s): Yeah, I mean, on the lease water for sure, because we control the access. Oh, right. The least. But yeah, in the forest around here, hiking is your answer. I mean, we have a multitude, multitude of small streams that offer good wild trout. And yeah, you’re gonna be, you know, you walk a mile or two, you’re gonna be away from people. And that, that’s the saving grace. Because yeah, a few of our more well-known streams, I mean, they do by midsummer, they get guided to the point where it’s not an experience I would want to give to someone. No. The fish, you know, the fish have just seen too much, I think, you know, at some waters are much more resilient to guiding than, you know, small streams and private headwaters. 0 (18m 27s): I mean, a lot of people don’t realize it, that yeah, you can fish ’em, but they need a rest to provide good fishing in between some of the little lodges I work for on private streams, you know, you’ll get a group in for four or five days and you know, the first three days are good, but then, you know, they’ve put enough pressure on the water, it’s starting to show. Yeah. And they look at you like, oh, why, you know, why isn’t as good as the first day? And yeah, I like people to, I enjoy people that think as they fish and see the whole experience and not just focus on, you know, oh, I’m catching, I’m having a good time. Right. I mean, because it, ’cause it comes and goes. I mean, it can’t be just constant catching fish. 0 (19m 10s): I mean, we all need a day like that every once in a while. But yeah, you know, I prefer working hard for a few quality fish and appreciating the experience more than just always being concerned that everybody gets a bucket full of fish. Dave (19m 27s): Trout Routes is the most comprehensive mapping app for trout anglers. With over 50,000 trout streams, 350,000 access points, public land maps and more trout routes is the number one resource for navigating, researching, and exploring trout streams. You can download trout routes for free in the app store today. Just search for trout routes on your phone and take your exploration to the next level. That’s trout routes. T-R-O-U-T-R-O-U-T-E-S. When it comes to high quality flies that truly elevate your fly fishing game, drift hook.com is a trusted source you need. I’ve been using Drift hook’s expertly selected flies for a while now, and they never disappoint. Dave (20m 9s): Plus they stand behind their products with a money back guarantee. Are you ready to upgrade your fly box? Head over to drift hook.com today and use the code swing at checkout to get 15% off your first order. That’s drift hook. D-R-I-F-T-H-O-O k.com. Don’t miss out. So the San Juan, the upper San Juan that you’re fishing there versus say the lower Tailwater, how would you describe that? The differences there between those two? 0 (20m 35s): Well, Freestone Stream fishing stone flies are your predominant bug. I mean, it’s, we do get decent dry fly fishing, but I think it’s one of those rivers that you’re always gonna do better with nymphs. I mean, the bigger fish just hang deeper in the water and what have you. But that’s another thing about drive fly fishing. I mean, I love drive fly fishing, but you know, there either has to be the good opportunity visually that you can see it’s time to drive fly fish. Or I want an angler that knows how to fish a dry fly well enough that he can bring fish up. And that’s, you don’t find as many people that are, you know what I’m saying? If you love dry flies, you believe in dry flies and you can actually fish them effectively enough to actually turn fish on. 0 (21m 22s): I mean, that’s a challenge and it takes work. But I mean, at times, if you want one to eat it dry, that’s what you’re gonna have to do. Dave (21m 30s): Right. So you do more. Do you think you’re doing more nipping throughout the year? I guess it depends on 0 (21m 34s): Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, even in midsummer, I mean, for most of my anglers of modest skills that are looking for numbers, it just, it’s better to fish ’em with a nymph, you know? But, but other people, I mean, like I say, if you’re confident in it and believe in it, I’m happy. I mean, I’ve had guys fish dry and what I thought in my head was pretty marginal conditions. But because of their confidence and willingness to stick with it, you know, they caught, caught what they needed to. Dave (22m 4s): What is your nipping setup typically look like? How would you describe that as this like leader and all that stuff? 0 (22m 10s): I’m a big fan of the little puls indicators, the real light indicators. Usually I use a couple of them spaced about 12 inches apart. And I mean, I like ’em ’cause they’re light and sensitive. A big beef for a lot of people is that they’re not reusable. Oh. I mean, as, as long as you leave them on that rod rig, they are. But if you’re a guy that breaks down his rod every day, the stick ons have to come off. So, I mean, like a, a manager that I work for you, he’s not about the pulses unless he Oh yeah. He, but he will acknowledge that with small, small flies that, you know, they trigger a light strike a lot better. But, and I think a aerodynamically, they cast a little better too than Dave (22m 52s): Like the thing a bobbers or the 0 (22m 53s): Thing of a bobbers. Yeah. They, you know, they kind of clunk out there. The newer ones, those oros, they’re better. I mean, that it’s coming along and I mean, and I, I’m not like a lot of people have, I don’t know, hatred towards strike indicators. I’ve never been, never been that kind of a person. No. I mean it’s, you know, yeah. I’ll tell people I’m like, you know, if they’re carping about ’em, like, just pretend it’s a dry fly. Right. Dave (23m 16s): Well, that’s interesting. There’s always gonna be some people hating, right? Like you think of the office, right. Even people that the, they’re hating the Euro nippers because they’re doing Euro nipping. There’s no indicator there. Right? Yeah. I think there’s always gonna be some haters out there. Totally. 0 (23m 27s): I mean, yeah. That’s one thing about fly fishing that has always been, I find it funny, but irritating is just the, well, the nitpickiness, like you say, the Euro guys don’t like the nim first, the dryly guys, you know, it’s like, whatever. I mean, I much, much prefer to see a guy that is competent in a variety of techniques, understands when and where to use them, and just doesn’t, doesn’t have this preconceived, you know, idea, oh, I’m loftier than you are. Dave (23m 54s): Right. I’m a dry fly only 0 (23m 56s): Angler. It’s like, yeah. Yeah. You know, when I was learning at 13, that attitude kind of turned me off then, and it still does. Dave (24m 3s): Yeah. Yeah. I, I feel like that attitude’s kind of gone out or slowly is going away. I feel like, You know what I mean? It’s probably still out there a little bit, but do, do you still see it a little bit out there, that kind of uppity? 0 (24m 14s): I do. I think, like you’re saying, less and less in younger generations of anglers, but yeah, no, in the middle, middle aged to older guys. Yeah. They clinging to it like a life raft. Yeah. Dave (24m 25s): Right, right. 0 (24m 26s): And it’s like, well, whatever. Yeah. And as I’ve matured as a guide, I think I’ve mellowed a lot. I used to be real hard charging, you know, you’re gonna do it this way. And just, and I’ve just learned that for most people, you get more if you relax a little bit and let things just let it happen, you know, the way, the way it’s gonna, I think. And that, that’s worked better for me. I mean, yeah. I’ve, you know, in the past I’d upset a few people here and there. Dave (24m 54s): Sure. Yeah. Right. Just ’cause your personality. Right. You’re pretty passionate about it. And then I think it came out in the low and clear movie right. Where you kind of got pissed and, you know, there’s lots of swear words and stuff versus like, JT who’s kind of quiet. Is that how that movie was? 0 (25m 6s): Exactly? Well, yeah. I mean he’s, yeah. A little more even keeled, you know, and just, we just have different perspectives on Phish for sure. And it, yeah, it comes out all the time. Right. Dave (25m 19s): What was that like in that movie when he was just struggl? I mean, I’ve there too. In fact, I’ve been up on the Bain, I remember with a couple friends, and it was the same thing where I had one guy was struggling, you know, one of our buddies and, you know, and I was catching some fish. We were catching some fish. And it’s tough, you know, and somebody’s not catching fish and you’re catching fish. Like how did that, how was that up there with JT in the movie? 0 (25m 39s): Yeah, well that was, it bothered me, like first or second day out. It just, you know, I knew it was kind of heading that way, and I would think I was frustrated And we had a little blow up, and then I just realized, you know, it’s, you can’t control. Yeah. It’s gonna play out. Like it’s gonna play out. So from that point on, I think I just fished, but I did, I felt bad. I mean, there’s another friend I steelhead with for years and years, And we had a better system going where if, you know, one guy was struggling a little bit, if you fished a run and suddenly you hooked into a fish, you, you laid rod down and you went and got your buddy and said, Hey, come try this run. Because I mean, not, you know, nine out of 10 times, if you hook a fish in a nice run, there’s probably at least a couple more laying in there. 0 (26m 25s): Yeah. You know, it’s just having the ability to stop fishing, get your buddy talking him into coming down there. Yeah. You know, and that, yeah. And that’s, it’s a good feeling. But with jt, I just, you know, I didn’t get that feeling like he w you know, wanted to do it. Yeah. And then he just like say he was obsessing on the cast so much that, and for me, I mean, yeah, we all wanna cast beautifully, gracefully or whatever, but I mean, the fish don’t see it at all. No. And they really don’t care. I mean, it’s what happens to that bug after it hits the men? You know what, you know, the manipulation, I mean, the cast has to get it there, but you know, you can’t obsess over it. No. But people do. Dave (27m 5s): Yeah. He was learning the spay cast, right? Was that, or he was kind of, that was part of it, right? He wasn’t a pro. 0 (27m 12s): He’d done it a little bit before. I’m trying to think. I think, yeah, the first time we steelhead in 2001. Yeah. It was pretty much single land rods. People were getting into spay fishing, but we didn’t yet. Yeah. I mean, myself, I resisted it for two or three years. Dave (27m 26s): Did you, did you eventually, you got into it eventually? 0 (27m 28s): Oh, one day, A cold day on the Bain. I was fishing to run and a guy below me was space casting. And I just looked at how much line management I was having to do, how much ice management, because it was cold. And this guy had a fixed length of 70, 75 foot and I swing and just won, won. Punch it out there, swing it, you know? No, yeah. And I was like, man, gotta quit fighting. Yeah. Fighting the obvious, you know? And yeah. And I’ve come to love it. Yeah. Dave (27m 55s): What’s your space setup look like now? Out there? 0 (27m 58s): I fished, you know, I, I fished a seven, seven weight Z axis. And then what a, a kind of more traditional 13 foot eight weight. I mean, I like, I like middle of the road spare rods. I mean, the seven is a really nice rod for me. And I think the eight, the eight’s good, those cover the bases. And then nim fing, I use a nine just because I had it. It’s a little bit of a heavy rod, but it works good to turn over the indicator and what have you, you know, but, and then lately I just got a switch rod for fish and pyramid and yeah. The way spay rods have, you know, the transition to shorter and shorter coming down from 14, 15 foot down into 13, 12, I think, you know, they’re, yeah, they’re manageable, they’re nice rods. 0 (28m 43s): I mean, so yeah, I think for a guy, you know, going steelhead seven and an eight in the 12 and a half, 13 foot range is gonna cover your bases pretty well. Dave (28m 53s): Yeah. And are you using your, your typical kind of like Skagit style lines? Are you using more of that longer belly stuff? 0 (28m 59s): Yeah, I like the older s gadgets, the ones that were, you know, it’s all the running line and the head is all in one and they’re getting harder to find. But yeah. You know, the new setups with the slick shooter and stuff, you know, they throw great and everything just take a little bit of getting used to. I’m kind of a guy that if I find something I like, I I stick with it for a long, long time. Dave (29m 19s): Right. Which is the, like the pulse indicators, right? Those are old school, but they still make those, I’m guessing 0 (29m 25s): They do, but Yeah. I mean, but like you’re saying, yeah, most people are not using them. I think in tail waters where you’re fishing smaller flies, they’re still pretty popular on the stand, Juan. Mm. But you know, just from the point of the reusability, I think for a lot of people it makes sense. Just, you know, they’re not having to constantly buy something. Yeah. Dave (29m 45s): Yeah. Gotcha. So back to that indicator setup. So what is that? So you have the two indicators. Maybe describe your, you know, maybe from the fly, a typical nymph trout leader that you’re fishing. Yeah. 0 (29m 55s): Typical leader on the San Juan. Yeah. So the indicators will be, you know, not too far down the butt section, maybe 18 inches from the fly line itself. And then I’m gonna go, hm, six to eight feet to your heavy fly, your big stone fly. And then, and that’ll be on, you know, tapering down to about four x, maybe five and lower water conditions. And then about 18 inches of tip it to your, your bottom behead or whatever. And that, that’s your basic setup. I mean, that’s it for, yeah. Spring and winter. I mean, I’m fishing a stone, flying an egg 90% of the time rigged. Yeah. You know, maybe eight to the first fly and close to 10 to the second fly. 0 (30m 37s): You wanna get deep, I mean, yeah. The whole, whole point of an indicator rig, making sure you’ve got enough depth to get down there. Dave (30m 44s): Right. So that’s what the, the big stonefly, is that kind of just your weight or you using other weight on the, on the leader? 0 (30m 50s): I’ll add an additional weight if need be, depending on the current. But yeah, I mean, sometimes it’s nicer to just keep it to just flies and just have a heavy fly, good anchor fly that gets you down. Dave (31m 2s): Yeah. So the anchor fly gets you down and does it get down near the bottom, on the bottom and then, or how does that work? 0 (31m 8s): Pretty close. I mean, you know, like they say a good nm for you. If you don’t feel the bottom fairly frequently, you’re you’re not down there. Yeah. But I dunno, some rivers are different though. There’s a river over the past from here, the canose and fish there are consistently mid-level. I mean, if you nymph on the bottom, you, you consistently get in, you too much snags and just, there’s a lot of woody debris on the bottom and yeah, for some, so I think some rivers it can be different. But San Juan, I hear in the headwaters, you wanna be pretty deep down on the bottom. Dave (31m 39s): Yeah. And how big are the, the, the creeks or the rivers you’re fishing up on the San Juan in that upper area? 0 (31m 43s): Well, the upper San Juan’s 60 to 75 feet wide up there. Oh Dave (31m 48s): Yeah. So they’re still pretty decent size. Yeah. Yeah. 0 (31m 49s): It’s pretty good. You know, a good fishing flows are between, oh, a hundred and 125 to two 50 CFS, you know, is a nice comfortable level. I mean, it’s fishable up to around 500 or so, but you can’t weight it, you know, I mean Yeah, yeah. To be able to weight it easily and stuff. Yeah. About about two 50 or less. Dave (32m 8s): Two 50. Okay. And that’s what you guys are doing typically up there, you’re walking, waiting in there. 0 (32m 12s): Yeah, it’s, yeah, you can, there’s, you can float from downtown. There’s some private water with about 400 CFS you can float. It’s a 14 mile float and it’s popular, but it’s a real short window to do that, you know, you’re, yeah. And you’re private land the whole way. There’s a takeout area for lunch, but yeah, you’re, you’re floating, Dave (32m 31s): So you gotta, so you gotta float. How can you anchor up now there, if it’s private land, 0 (32m 35s): You cannot Yeah, no, that’s the problem. Yeah. It’s, you gotta float free or just being an eddy. Yeah. But it, you know, during the time there’s fly shops in Durango, the town an hour west of us, they come over and fish it pretty hard. So, I mean, it’s on the radar. There’s not that many secrets anymore. Dave (32m 52s): No. Right. 0 (32m 53s): I mean that’s, yeah, I mean, the internet, I love the internet, but at the same time, I, I’m try to be protective. I mean, you know, spot burning is a big thing to me. I mean, it just, you try to, I just try to think of how other people would feel and just, you know, I mean, especially if it’s the first time you’ve been to a place, why would you wanna just go and blow it up? You don’t know. You don’t know anything about it. And, you know, I can understand being excited or whatever, but you really have to think. Dave (33m 20s): Oh, right. And you’re saying like, people coming in maybe kind of into an area and then Yeah, maybe they’re new to it and they fish it and they blow it up a little bit, that sort of thing. 0 (33m 28s): Yeah. You know, and it’s, yeah, it could be innocent, but no, I learned as a kid. I mean, I told a friend of mine in school about a spot one time, and the next time I went up there, he was up there with his whole family. Oh, wow. Fishing the place out. Dave (33m 40s): Oh 0 (33m 41s): Man. Yeah, it was a clear, yeah. I was like, huh, I won’t do that again. So, Dave (33m 45s): No, that is tough. 0 (33m 46s): So yeah, I’ve always been kind of secretive, whereas now it’s, you know, the internet, there’s a wealth of information and it’s, it’s neat how guides, I mean, there’s guides. I’ve watched their progress in four or five years. They’ve, you know, it’s amazing how far they can go compared to what it took me to, you know, gradually learn through books and just over time things which, and a slow progression. I mean, I enjoyed it. I mean, it’s, yeah. I mean, sometimes too fast is not as good. Yeah. But it, it’s the way things work nowadays. Dave (34m 20s): Yeah, I agree. I think there’s something to that to, to learn, write, learning and going out to someplace where you don’t have all the answers and you’re actually on the water trying to figure it out. Yeah. 0 (34m 29s): And just in books and stuff, it just, things just happen slowly. Yeah. You just kind of, well, you enjoy that slow progression where, I mean, now. Yeah, I mean, with the internet, I mean, gosh, you can be fishing the best stuff within a year or two and I mean, it just, I don’t know, sometimes it seems a little quick. Yeah. Dave (34m 48s): Wow. Well, so that’s kinda your nipping setup and as you’re getting into it, I guess maybe give us a few more highlights on that. So some of this water, what, what’s your, you get to the stream, I mean, you know, these like the back of your hand, I’m sure, but if you’re trying to find these fish out here, you know, how do you do that in a new water? What are you looking for? 0 (35m 5s): Yeah, I mean, I’m a pool guy, which, you know, I mean, I like runs and pools. I always believe the fish are in the deeper water. And I mean, the Czech nim infant guys have, have shown me, you know, that the pockets and the riffles, you know, there’s things happening there too. But I mean, I think I’ll always be a guy that, you know, when I read rivers, I’m looking, I’m looking for those tasty runs and deep bigger. I just believe that the better fish want the better real estate, and most of the time they do. So it, but, you know, in a, in a stream that only has pocket water, I mean, you kind of have to learn. Yeah. I mean, my hat’s off to some of those guys that can fish that intensive little pockety water and get a fish out of each little Clyde of water. 0 (35m 52s): I mean, it’s good to know that, but it’s not where I like to spend time myself. Dave (35m 57s): No. And maybe not the biggest fish are sitting in those shallower pockets. Right? Potentially 0 (36m 2s): Not, not that often because it’s a safety thing. I mean, the food value has to outweigh the safety thing for big fish to park in shallow water. I mean, as, yeah, I feel in our neck of the woods, birds are probably the highest predator. And with these low, low water years we’ve been having, birds are, you know, they’ve definitely been ruling the game for a while. And So that, I think that, yeah, the smart fish learn deeper water cover and what have you is, and a lot of our streams are, the populations of brown trout seem to be getting stronger. Maybe partially water temperature, partially pressure. They seem a little more resilient to fishing pressure. 0 (36m 44s): So, you know, that’s an interesting change that’s coming about. Right. Dave (36m 48s): I was gonna say more on that. And if, I’m just trying to get a feel for, you know, I think it is a struggle. I think the nipping is hard for people, I think fishing pools. But like, how does that, when you got your setup out there, you’re, you have a pool that you think is gonna hold fish. How are you adjusting your indicator of getting down to the fish, you know, as changes in depths and things, you know, stuff like that is occurring. Yeah, 0 (37m 8s): I mean that’s, I I change depth somewhat. I mean, they say, you know, the top nm fors, it’s all about depth of presentation and weight. So I, I don’t change it. I think mending and drifting, I just try to get a decent presentation in there, or with my client. And I mean, in a lot of these waters that I fished over and over, you know, I’ve got a lot of time on the water, I know, know about what rig is gonna get the job done. Yeah. And I, and in, you know, fish in the summer, they will move more of the strike zone is bigger in the summer fish, you know, they see a bug two, three feet away, they’re gonna move over and grab it. Where in the winter, the strike zone is a lot smaller. 0 (37m 49s): I mean, that’s why you wanna be down on the bottom, drifting it right in their nose, you know, basically putting the fly right to ’em. So I think, yeah, in the summer I’m just focused on getting it in the water column that they’re gonna feed in. But, you know, not obsessing over it. I mean, but you know, I mean, if there’s a difficult fish there that you know is there and you’re rigging, you try your rigging, nothing happens, then it’s time to tweak it a little bit. You know, try. Yeah. Maybe a smaller dropper. And I lo I love that when you come to a pool where you can actually maybe even see a fish, you know, and then yeah, it’s, spend some time working that fish. And that’s always a good experience with a client if you can get ’em to, if you can get ’em to settle down and, you know, you know, a lot of times they don’t even see it. 0 (38m 32s): So, I mean, it’s, yeah. As a guide, that’s one thing I’ve learned over 35 years of guiding is perspective. You know, I mean, your idea of what you think the client is seeing with what they’re really seeing. Right. And yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, you can’t overthink it, but a lot of times they’re not understanding what you’re seeing and you, you need to come up with a, another way to present it or just work harder to get the idea across. Dave (38m 59s): I see. Yeah. So if you see a fish there, how does that work? You see a fisher with a client, how do you get him into that fish? Or maybe he’s not even seeing the fish, right? Well, 0 (39m 7s): Right. I’ll try to get him to see it, but if that’s not working, then I’ll just go off positioning. I’ll try to get him to cast to a point I want, you know, X feet above it or you know, mark it off of something on the bank or whatever. And you know, butch flies there, let him drift through and that way he’s gonna get the drift I want without having to see the fish. ’cause that’s the problem with Nim fing a lot of guys, you need that three dimensional picture in your mind of understanding what the rigging is looking like, how it’s coming through the water, and what you’re trying to achieve. And to a guy that, you know, likes the drive fly, believes in that more, it’s hard for him to get that mental picture. Dave (39m 47s): Right. Yeah. The mental, like under the surface. Yeah. 0 (39m 49s): Yeah. Just the, you know, the imaginary of what’s happening. You know, a guy that’s, you know, done a lot of fishing where it’s all visual, visual, visually he is watching for it. It’s hard to get ’em to, you know, loosen up and just fish like that. I think for a lot of people, that’s what retards them and learning to be a good nim for in the beginning is just the three dimensional picture and being able to visualize what you’re trying to do and make it happen. Yeah. But once you do it, I mean, to me, yeah, Dave (40m 20s): Once you get hook up, 0 (40m 20s): Yeah. It’s second nature. I mean, well just reading the water, I mean, I’ll always have a kind of a visual picture, you know, I’m looking under the water and you can see some of your clients as you get to the pool, you almost can see their vision just bounce off the surface of the water. Yeah. Dave (40m 35s): Right. How, How are you seeing that? How are you looking through the water? Like, if you can’t see totally clear, How are you figuring out what that structure and habitat looks like? 0 (40m 43s): Well, wind, I mean, a lot of, I don’t use polarized glasses a lot, which is rare. I mean, most guides use ’em pretty consistently, but I look for the windows and the water. You know, as you’re walking up the river, all of a sudden there’s that spot maybe behind you where you can suddenly see the whole bottom. Everything you have to find that spot, you know? And a lot of it’s just practice, I think the more you’re looking and then knowledge of, you know, yeah, I’ve been on that river before, so I mean, you kind of, you learn where the fish live and that’s where you’re looking for right time on the water, I think. Dave (41m 17s): Yeah. Time on the water, is it, and spotting fish and seeing fish in the windows and stuff you’re talking about is something that takes time. Right. I mean, a lot of people, like you said, you get a client out there, he might not have any idea to be looking for that window where you can see the fish. Right? 0 (41m 30s): Yeah. And the ability to just make your eyes penetrate the surface. I mean, there’s a little bit of surface glare, but yeah. There, you know, then there’s that window and just being able to, you know, see the window and use it. So I think it just, some of that stuff, it just takes more time to learn. And bottom line for a lot of fishermen, they just don’t get enough time. No. Because they’re not drought bums, you Dave (41m 53s): Know? Yeah. Right, right. 0 (41m 54s): I mean, that’s probably what I feel the most for clients is just, you know. Yeah. Especially the, yeah. The guys that get to do it once, twice a year, you know, they really love it, but they’re kinda like a skier that’s just stuck in that rut because they just can never get over the hump. They’re still good guys, but yeah. Yeah. Dave (42m 11s): You feel definitely still fun to get out, but yeah. What would you tell, so if you see the fish there, How are you presenting that indicator setup to the fish? 0 (42m 20s): I’m trying, you know, like I said, let’s say the fish is four to five feet deep. I’m probably gonna lead it by at least eight to 10 feet. I’m gonna want the drift, I’m, I want the indicators to come a little bit on the inside of them, you know, not necessarily over the top of them in super clear water, you know, and that way you’re presenting, you know, the flies are gonna come to ’em, but not the indicator. Yeah. And sometimes even changing your position, coming in a little bit above So that the flies come down first. I mean, it’s, you know, yeah. Like I say, a fish, once the fish is refused what you got going on, then you have to reevaluate and try to, you know, Hmm. Give ’em something different. 0 (43m 0s): But a lot of times, I mean, we try to rest our fish in there, you know, so I mean it’s, yeah, most of ’em are pretty willing. Dave (43m 7s): Yeah. They’re willing once they see it. What is your, the setup, you talked about the stonefly, what’s a typical, what’s a pattern you might use and then what are you using on your droppers? 0 (43m 15s): IU you know, I use turds a lot of time because they’re a quick, easy tie. And I mean, impressionistically, they’re as good as a stonefly that takes you 30 minutes to tie, I mean, I love Ken Morris’s weapon of mass destruction, but the time to tie it, or like beef’s wired stone, I mean, they’re beautiful flies. I love fishing them, but just, you know, the extra time to tie that fly just kills you. Yeah. Dave (43m 39s): Right. 0 (43m 40s): Whereas, so, you know, yeah. Turds and, you know, probably a size 10 is what I use a lot during the year. Most of our stones are, yeah, from that size all the way up to maybe a six or even a four depending, but it seems like the 10 is just a good across the board size. Dave (43m 56s): And are you, you’re weighting those a little bit? 0 (43m 58s): Yeah, I, I do, well about 20 wraps of oh, 20 in the shank. And then some I’ll put a bead on or something. But generally I like to fish most of ’em without a bead. Dave (44m 10s): Yeah, without a bead. Why is that just a why without a bead? 0 (44m 13s): Just subtle, you know, there’s a time for flashy flies. But yeah, if you’ve got the water clarity, I think a lot of times something subtle. And then for nymphs, I mean pheasant tails, little pheasant tails are one of my go-tos, you know, eighteens and twenties that just a good, good may fly imitation. Just a good little fly Dave (44m 31s): All round. Yeah. But do you put any on the, on those, just a traditional pheasant tail or put any flash in that 0 (44m 37s): Little bit of flash on the back, a little flash booth sometimes. Yeah. I like a little flash on those Dave (44m 44s): Step into the world where the river whispers and the fishing is nothing short of legendary. This year I ventured into the heart of Eastern Idaho’s Yellowstone Teton territory where the fish were larger than life and the waters held the secrets of the best fly fishing out West Yellowstone Teton territory is not just a location, it’s a gateway to adventures that will etch themselves into your memory with crystal clear rivers like the Henry’s Fork and the South Fork of the Snake, and enough lakes to keep you going all year long. Make your way to Yellowstone Teton territory and embark on a journey to one of North America’s finest fly fishing destinations. Whether you’re planning your trip now or just dreaming it up, the YTT is where those dreams turn into reality. Dave (45m 27s): Remember Yellowstone Teton territory, that’s Teton, T-E-T-O-N. It’s time to experience eastern Idaho for yourself and support this podcast at the same time. And how is it, when the stone flies are going down, are you fish? Are they, they’re kind of, the natural insect is just kind of tumbling down, right? Is that what you’re imitating? Yeah, 0 (45m 47s): They’re under the rocks and you know, they get dislodged every once in a while. Or, I mean, you know, I’m sure the fish will even pick ’em right off the rocks. Yeah. I mean, they’re just, the bread and butter on this water system. Dave (45m 57s): They are. What percentage of the fish? Just on a, you know, you say just guessing, you know, you got the two fly or hooking the stone fly versus the dropper 0 (46m 5s): Early season, I’d say 75% the big stone, you know. Oh, wow. And then, yeah, and then as the water clears, you know, midsummer to late summer, you’re gonna get way more fish on the nymphs. Dave (46m 15s): Oh you will? Yeah. 0 (46m 16s): They seem like they’re, you know, they’re focusing in on seeing the bigger stone, but then, oh, I want the little tasty. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Dave (46m 24s): Right. And that’s also after like the stonefly kind of slowly, well, the big stones, don’t they? It’s earlier, right? June, July. Is that in your area? 0 (46m 32s): June is when we’ll get the hatch and you know, yeah, most years they hatch when the water’s too high. I think it was two years ago, I got ’em pretty good. I mean, that’s one plus of these low water years is you’re gonna see a better chance at, at a good stonefly hatch when the water is at a fishable level, you know, because yeah, I think it was June 10th a couple years ago, so I mean, yeah, I’ll be looking for that this year. I mean, nah, you gotta love it when it comes together. I mean, Dave (46m 59s): Since 0 (46m 59s): The only time, only time of the year that you’ll have fish swimming downstream to eat a dryly. I mean Oh wow. I know. Just, just chasing it, you know? I mean, it just, you know, and you pull fish from water that, you know, rarely produces at other times of the year, you’re like, man, how can there be a fish there? Right. Dave (47m 15s): Because they’re going in like, under the, towards the bank, under the trees, that sort of stuff, or 0 (47m 19s): Towards the bank, and they’re just up and looking. It’s like once the word’s out in the river, I mean, those fish are, I mean, yeah, anything orange hits the water. I mean, they’re just waking for it. Dave (47m 28s): That’s it. What, what’s your, what’s your big fly you’re using pattern for those? I 0 (47m 32s): Like the rogue stones. The rogue foam stones. And like about a six. Yeah. For me, that’s a really good pattern. You know, it, it holds up to a few fish. I mean, the, their teeth start catching in that, you know, that’s got that bullet head. Yeah. Bullet. Yeah. The hair, it starts getting ripped Dave (47m 47s): Off. Does it work better? So it works better and it gets ripped 0 (47m 50s): Off. It does, yeah. Yeah. When it’s getting chewed up a little bit, it doesn’t float as well, but it starts, yeah. Dave (47m 55s): Yeah. The bullets. So do you do that and on the, when you’re doing that, is that just strictly that, or you putting a dropper off of 0 (48m 0s): I’ll just go, yeah. When they’re hot, I’ll just go with the stone. Yeah. You, you just, you you want, yeah. You wanna see those fish chasing it, and you just don’t need, yeah. I mean, I maybe fished for an hour that day and shoot, I had probably 10 or 12 nice fish, and I was like, oh, that’s good enough. You know? Dave (48m 17s): What, what’s the, you’re kind of know, I’m not sure if you still do this, but in that, in the movie, you were known for the, I think the, all the photos, right? I think you guys talked about that. Why do you have to take all these photos? But talk about that a little bit because I think photos are, I think they’re really powerful and, and I mean, I, I love a good photo ’cause you, it’s a memory and stuff, but you hear a lot of this stuff about, you know, the keep ’em wet and, and all this stuff that’s going where it’s saying, Hey, do we need to take photos anymore? And people are not showing phish photos as much. Talk about that. What’s your take on photos and what, what do you do out there? 0 (48m 44s): Well, I, yeah, I love photos and yeah, I don’t, I don’t take a photo of every fish. I mean, that’s pumping it up a little bit, but like you say, memorable fish. And for me it’s kind of a, I used to journal, you know, journals in my fishing, and for me, the photos are like a mini journal. I mean, the classic grip and grin, which, like you say, it gets a lot of heat from people. But to me, if I can see the river, the conditions of the river, the fish, the fly in its mouth, you know, the weather conditions, I mean, there’s a story in that picture to me. Right. And there’s a memory of a good fish. I think people, people get a little carried away with complaining about it. But, you know, and I think that comes from an artistic level too. 0 (49m 27s): They’re like, oh, another grip and grin. Right. But I mean, so yeah, I could see where it, for some people it’s gets to be too much. But that’s, you know, it’s personal. If you don’t wanna picture, don’t take one. Yeah. Dave (49m 39s): You don’t have to. Yeah. 0 (49m 40s): Don’t beat a guy up over taking a photo then. No, I agree. And you brought up a good point with the keep ’em wet. Yeah. Thing that started up, you know, I don’t know, five, 10 years ago. And it’s definitely good thought. And it’s definitely, you know, there’s a lot to it, but there’s a multitude of other factors in every catch of a fish that can contribute to the successful release of that fish or not. So I think when people focus just on the keep ’em wet, they’re kind of losing, you know? I mean, yeah, you kept it wet, but you played the thing for 15 minute minutes on six x in 70 degree water, that’s probably Dave (50m 19s): Worse. 0 (50m 19s): Right. It’s, you know, the fish is dead. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah. And you know, like steelhead. Yeah. I’ve even had people bitch at me about a grip and grin. But I mean, my deal on steelhead, I try to fight my fish pretty aggressively, more so than a lot of people land them quick and try to get a photo and get ’em back on the way, you know? Yeah, Dave (50m 40s): Definitely. But 0 (50m 41s): Bottom line, any fishing, I mean, the moment you put a hook into something, you Dave (50m 46s): Know Yeah. You’re putting stress on the fish. 0 (50m 48s): Yeah. You’re pr I mean, the door’s open. And so I just, I can’t stand these people that, oh, I fish catcher release Barbless Hook, and I’ve never harmed a fish in my life and Dave (50m 57s): I don’t hurt the fish 0 (50m 57s): At all. Yeah, yeah. It’s like, please, dude. Dave (50m 60s): Oh yeah, there, there’s some harm. Yeah. We’re all, that’s the, we’re all har I think, I feel like they keep ’em wet is really good because there’s a lot of people that don’t know any, you know, they’re new to it or they don’t know anything, and having them just understand, like some of people don’t even know. Right. They’re like, wow, that’s great to know. But for people like you, people that have fished their lives, you know, you’re keep ’em wet probably isn’t as critical or, you know, you know how to keep a fish healthy. Right. So pulling a fish outta the water for a couple seconds and taking a photo probably isn’t the end of the world. Right. 0 (51m 26s): It shouldn’t be. Yeah. If the fish was hooked in a decent spot’s not bleeding, you played it quickly. I mean, if you, yeah, there’s, you know, a handful of things that you need to do. Right. And the fish will probably be all right. But it’s, yeah. You can’t put yourself on a soapbox though. And Dave (51m 43s): No, you can’t. Well, it’s for the people that, like you said, played it for way too long, the water’s too hot, then they take it outta the water and maybe they’re even in their boat. Right. You hear these things like people taking ’em in their boat and it falls in the bottom of the boat, you know? And Yeah. 0 (51m 55s): Nuts. No. Well, And then, you know, dry handing is a big pet peeve for me. I mean, even, I’m not gonna name anybody, but you’ll see a lot of professional anglers, you know, that it seems like in the heat of the moment getting their clip or their video or whatever, they just seem to forget to wet their hands thoroughly before they handle that fish. And for me, I mean, that’s a real important point, you know, that yeah, you can keep the fish wet, but if you don’t wet your hands And then you handle it, you’re removing a lot of slime and you’re just Yeah. You’re not doing the fish any favors, so, right. I mean, yeah, we all need to work harder to do a good job at taking care of fish. And then, you know, a big thing in steel heading up in British Columbia now is because of the pressure that everybody’s putting on them is, hey, you know, if you have a day where you catch one or two or three steelhead, maybe you should stop fishing. 0 (52m 46s): Oh, right. You know, and that’s, you know, it’s kind of a hard sell to a guy that’s spent a hell of a lot of money to get there. And sure, he caught three fish today, but tomorrow you may not catch any. That’s true. True. So, I mean, it’s, you know, I can understand both sides of the point. I mean, I, I’ve been lucky enough to catch five or six or seven steelhead in a day, and at that point I don’t have any, any problem laying the rod down. Well, you just, you get to the point where if you can’t remember each individual fish, you probably, you’re not doing them justice. So, Dave (53m 17s): No, that’s right. Do you remember on, on, you look at your trout, I mean, do you remember like all the member, like, I’m sure there’s some monster fish that you probably have forgotten, or what, what’s that? Or do you go back to your photo log and say, wow, I remember that one? 0 (53m 30s): Yeah. Every once in a while. Yeah. Because it goes so deep in there, but I, yeah, I remember memorable fish from years ago, and like everybody says, the ones that you lose, the ones you always remember, I mean, yeah. Those are the ones that stay with you forever, you know? Yeah. And that as an angler, you gotta get to a point where you can lose a decent fish, you know, and not necessarily shrug it off, but I mean, don’t let it destroy your day. And I mean, when I was a kid, I’d lose a lung ke Oh yeah. I’d fall on the bank and, you know, yeah. Just go into all kinds of fits. But no, you just, you gotta, you know, accept what happened and get the line back out there and maybe something even better will happen. 0 (54m 11s): But on, on some days though, you know, when you know you’ve been presented with a chance that you worked hard for and if you screwed it up and you know, there’s probably not another chance coming along, it can be hard, but you gotta be able to deal with it. Right. Dave (54m 26s): Definitely 0 (54m 26s): The pain and the pleasure. Dave (54m 28s): Yeah. Yeah. That’s what we love. What is the, well, we’re gonna take it out here in a little bit, but I wanted to get a few more tips outta you on the nipping, you know, especially for trout as we’re talking about. So on, you know, we had the setup, so we’re looking at, we talked about that, the double, and why do you use the double SSA indicators? Why not just use one 0 (54m 46s): With single fly or small flies? I will use one at a time, but when you’re fishing the heavy stone and a smaller bug behind, it seems like the two pulses give you that Levi, the little bit of buoyant, the buoyancy, you need to make the drift. You don’t, you just don’t want it crashing into the bottom and not going anywhere. You need that little Yeah, Dave (55m 5s): Gotcha. A little more flotation. 0 (55m 7s): Yeah. Now putting three on there doesn’t really work for me because you just starting to get too much. Yeah. If, if I’m going with a rig that’s too heavy, then I would switch to the big pulses. I mean the big Oh, okay. You know, big, just a big strike indicator. Like in BC when I’m nipping with, with a heavier hook with an egg, with a heavier hook I use, it’s just like a styrofoam indicator, maybe three quarter inch bright fluorescent, but it just, it’s got a little more buoyancy. Dave (55m 34s): Is that how you do it? How do you do your nipping for steelhead in bc? 0 (55m 37s): Yeah. The same basic thing. Keep the indicator maybe foot and a half from the end of the fly line, and then about eight to 10 feet to the fly. You know, you’re only fishing single fly in bc of course. Oh, single, yeah, yeah. Single on everything. And I mean, they’re, they’re barbless stream and lake province wide, which I mean, that’s pretty awesome, I think. Dave (55m 57s): Yeah. Bar and you are using the egg patterns. 0 (55m 59s): Yeah. Egg pattern. Yep, that’s right. Yeah. That egg patterns, you know, some guys up there are all about to swing, but the eggs, you know, when they get tired and it’s funny and you can swing an egg. And it was, my buddy went out and fished with a guy from Oregon one time, and he started telling him how we swing eggs in BC and his Oregon guy looks at him and he goes, you can’t swing an egg. Yeah. And my buddy’s like, what do do you mean? And it was like, and, and, and the guy goes, eggs don’t swing, but they do. Yeah, they do. So it’s just, oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can totally swing an egg, so, yeah, Dave (56m 33s): Right. It’s just the egg tumble and it swinging, tumbling down. Right. It’s just like tumble down the gravel. Well, 0 (56m 38s): Swinging. It’s a tight line grab. You’re gonna feel it. I mean, I will say that, yeah, eggs you do with aggressive fish. You gotta be careful. Sometimes fish can take it hard, take it deep. But that can be set of a leach too. Yeah. I mean that’s, that’s, you know, back to what we were saying. I mean, any fly guy that tells you, oh, I’ve never heard a fish. Sometimes fish hurt themselves just with the violence that they take a fly. Yeah. And, and there’s really nothing, you don’t have any control over that. I mean, I love streamer fishing and a lot of times you’re, you know, you get some violent takes with streamers because the fish is chasing something to kill it. So I mean, they hit with force and so sometimes things can happen. Dave (57m 17s): Definitely. What’s your typical fly on that and steelhead setup for if the egg pattern? 0 (57m 23s): I tie my own eggs, just, you know, glow bug yarn from California. I tie ’em big, a little bigger than most people, you know, half inch to three quarter inch. I’m on a big old egg floating down there. Sometimes we’ll even tie ’em bigger. But yeah, it’s just a spot of color. Dave (57m 40s): What’s your color? What do you do? Put a little ice spot in it. What’s your color combo you like? 0 (57m 43s): I’m not big on ice spots. I apr cotton peach. Dave (57m 46s): Yeah. And peach. Yeah. And 0 (57m 47s): Salmon just kind of more natural row colors are what I lean towards most of the time. I mean, I’ve seen guys do good with pink. I mean red, red seemed to be good on the Bain, you know, at times. But yeah, when I first started fishing. And then even blue, I guess some eggs as they rot or fungus, I guess they can turn like a bluish color. Mm. Yeah. You don’t hear much about blue eggs, but I mean, they are commercially available and I know one guy that caught like a 25 pounder on the blue egg, so I mean, it can happen. That’s it. Personally, I haven’t fished them though. Dave (58m 23s): Yeah, no, I, and I never fished ’em either. I, I, and I’ve seen ’em, I guess I’ve seen that. But yeah, I think that what you said, the other code are good. The bad bean, you have it in I the name. Right. So even in, I think your email Bain, that’s not an easy river. We fished that. Well, we floated it once down, all the way down through. It was kind of this crazy trip we did. But it’s pretty hard to get in there. Right. You can pay a lot of money to get to the lodges. Where did you guys go to? I’m, or we don’t have to, you don’t have to tell the spots or anything. 0 (58m 49s): No, I fi yeah, I fished out of Nor Lakes Lodge that, that’s the upper lodge, which, yeah, I, I did that lodge probably five or six years. And I mean it, it was owned by Pierce Clegg at the time. He is a great steelhead angler, good friend of mine. And then he sold the lodge to another guy, Billy Labonte, another steelhead guy that used to work for one of the lower lodges. And he’s a great guy too. He is done some improvements. I still have still have friends that go there and I mean, I would do the lodge thing again. It’s just financially, it’s man, I mean, when I started in 99, I think you could do a freeze out week at the Bain for about 1800 bucks. And now, you know, the weeks are seven, eight, 10,000. 0 (59m 34s): Wow. You know Dave (59m 35s): What, and what’s the freeze out week? That’s the last week of the season. 0 (59m 38s): The last week of the season. Yeah. And that’s kind of where I got the feel for the end of the season, I think was just the first couple times I took that discounted trip. Yeah. There was a fly shop in Durango that was hosting a week up there and you know, they had the discounted week and yeah, it sounded doable. I mean, it’s always been hard for me to get away in the fall. I mean, steelheading, it’s comes right at a busy time. So yeah, a lot of work getting ready for winter and just, things are still happening down here. So it, you know, it took a lot for me to finally prime myself away and say, look, you, you know, you want a steelhead, you’re gonna have to break away at this time of the year and do it. So Dave (1h 0m 16s): Yeah, that’s right. 0 (1h 0m 18s): But back to what you were saying on the Ba bean, it’s a, yeah, the Baab Bean is one of those rivers that, it’s weird. I mean, sometimes the guy can come there on his inaugural trip and do really well. I mean, that happened to JT in 2001. I mean he, you know, he did well. Oh he did. Dave (1h 0m 33s): Swinging flies. 0 (1h 0m 34s): Yeah, swinging flies. Yeah. Had a great trip, you know, and then when he came back, was it, it was five or six years later with me on his own, he struggled. But it was, you know, different rivers, different time of the year. That’s one thing I’ve noticed, the colder it is at the end of the season, the Ming with eggs, you know, it can be the secret. Yeah, those fish. Oh right. Kind of the fish are slowing down. They’ve seen so many leeches on the swing, they’re just kind of, they’re turned off. So that subtler drift, you know, works. And I think he just, by not locking into that, he missed out on some opportunities. Dave (1h 1m 10s): Yeah. When were you there? When was that JT trip? The one on the video or the film? 0 (1h 1m 15s): That was 2009 in the film. He’s been up there three times with me. The first time 2001 we did the lodge. He did great. 2006, we kind of fished on our own. He struggled a little bit. We got invited to the lodge for a couple of days to help close it down. He caught a few fish out there. But, you know, just tougher. It was, that was a big, big snow year. They got a lot of snow early up there and just things, but, but back to what we were saying, the bad bean. Yeah. It’s a river that demands you fish your best, but be humble. I mean, when I do the best on the baan, it’s, yeah, I, I fish well, but I don’t, I don’t know. You don’t have expectations. 0 (1h 1m 56s): I don’t go out there. Oh, I’m gonna cut this river in half. I mean, you just, you know that it, yeah, it’s a funny river. I mean, ’cause yeah, it’s, you can fish your ass off and Yeah, you get nothing. I mean, it’s humbled a lot of people, but then you get those days where you Dave (1h 2m 11s): Course could be great. Yeah. God, yeah. We, I’ve talked about this before on the show, but back when we did the first, we floated down all the way through the canyon. It was super intense. We didn’t know what we were getting into. It wasn’t guided. We just went in and it was, 0 (1h 2m 24s): Yeah. And that, that’s a rough trip. I mean, like you say, I mean that’s, it was more the experience of just doing it. Yeah. Right. And it if, yeah, if you catch a few fish on the way, good enough. That’s Dave (1h 2m 34s): Exactly how it worked. So 0 (1h 2m 35s): You guys didn’t helicopter out at the Gale Creek or whatever you Dave (1h 2m 39s): No, no. We float it all the way. Yeah. All the through. Yeah. We, we had these route I and I was lead, I had more experience. So I was kind of the lead boat. We had a pontoon boat and a bigger and a smaller boat. Yeah. We got this, we had this guy from Canada who gave us like back of the napkin sort of directions on, you know, where to go. You had this one called, you know, stay, ride or die Rapid. He had this one that was like the boulder garden and everything was way bigger than we thought, you know, in technical. And yeah, there’s one rapid down there that’s so tight. You gotta ship your oars in. You could barely fit the boat through the, the slot. 0 (1h 3m 7s): Well, yeah, the sphincter, I believe Dave (1h 3m 8s): They call it ser. Is that what it’s Yeah, yeah. Sphincter. So luckily the water was kind of lower, so it made it a little bit easier. I couldn’t imagine doing that at a higher flow. It would’ve been intense, but it was still already intense. We were, we had dry suits on And we were all, like, we, we like literally ate for 10 days, ate those freeze dried foods. Right. The meals to save weight. But we survived. We survived. I can tell you my top three steelhead of my life to this day still are from that, that float. 0 (1h 3m 34s): Sweet. Dave (1h 3m 34s): Yeah. So it was worth it. 0 (1h 3m 35s): Yeah, no, that’s, I mean, like you say, yeah, you’ll, you’ll be on your deathbed and you won’t forget that one. Yep. Dave (1h 3m 41s): Yeah, 0 (1h 3m 41s): Exactly. That’s awesome. Dave (1h 3m 42s): Well, what should, before we get outta here in a bit, I do, I wanna, like I said, I wanna get a couple tips outta you, but what is your, you know, again, looking at all these fish, you know, you can’t look at all of ’em, but what would be your story? Do you have one that’s like memorable that you think back, you’re like, man, that your deathbed story, do you have one out there? 0 (1h 3m 58s): God, there’s a lot of ’em, Dave (1h 3m 60s): Or is it too many at this point? Do you kind of go back and probably forget? 0 (1h 4m 3s): Yeah, it’s hard. I mean, well this year, as you might have heard, I mean the runs rebounded a lot. Dave (1h 4m 9s): Oh yeah. So you were there this year? I 0 (1h 4m 11s): Did, yeah. I went, yeah, I skipped last year and then went this year and yeah, it was, it was good. Good season. It was, yeah. And you know, the weather was funny though. I mean, a lot of people got burned. I mean, it was good. It was good in August, which is really weird. I mean, early fish and then the first part of September was good and then a lot of people got burned on the back half of September high water and just, you know, and then another high water in October, you know, so me coming late, there was even, there was another blow on the bulky when I was there late, but I was able to work around that. And so part of my plan is mobility. I mean, you know, that’s the key. Not being at a lodge that’s tied to one or two rivers is if you have a vehicle and you’re not afraid to drive, there’s more out there and it just gives you more versatility and that that tends to work. 0 (1h 5m 0s): But yeah, no lifetime fish, I mean, yeah. On the baine there’s, you know, I’ve been lucky to get a handful of big fish here and there and you just, yeah, they’re all memorable. I mean, one, one thing I like to do is sometimes I’ll go out on the river in the public areas and just pick up trash, you know, I mean, trash on the rivers bugs me. So sometimes I’ll just go out and do a couple bags of trash first just to see if I can improve my caramel a little bit. Right. And sometimes it works. Yeah, no, I remember cleaning up a fire pit under a bridge at the baine bunch of broken glass and just nasty, you know, I got done with that and went up to a flat and started fishing and hit about five in a row. 0 (1h 5m 42s): Oh wow. The last one was like pushing 40 inches. And I was like, geez, that’ll work. Wow. Those are, yeah, fish like that, you’re just like, you know. Yeah, Dave (1h 5m 51s): That’s huge. 40 inches. Yeah, that’s giant. 0 (1h 5m 54s): Oh, you realize how special they are. I mean, you know, it’s, it’s funny. Yeah, with steelhead, I mean everybody wants one of those, but I’ve found, you know, it’s best to not even think about it. The guys that are always screaming, I want the big one, man, it chases them away. You know, those guys catch 10 pound hens their whole life, which, you know, I mean every steelhead is wonderful. But no, there’s something about a big buck you wanna, yeah, it’s nice to get into a big buck every once in a while. Dave (1h 6m 22s): Yeah. It’s, god. That’s great. Well, give us a couple before we jump outta here, you know, back to the, just on the trout takeaway, give us a few, so somebody’s out there nipping, they’ve got their set up, you know, what are a couple, two or three tips you’re giving them to have, you know, more success out there? 0 (1h 6m 36s): Just yeah, be, be good at your men’s. I mean, natural drift is important, I think. Yeah, I think back to what we’re saying, yeah. Being able to get the drift, you know, lead the fish by enough, put a nice mend in there and you know, get the flies to come by the fish naturally. Line management I think is, yeah, presentation. Yeah, that’s the biggest, I mean, yeah, some guys believe that presentation trumps selection, meaning, you know, it’s not, you don’t have to have the right fly. You just have to have a decent looking fly that fishes Well, and I mean, and in a lot of situations I, I think that’s true. I mean, you know, you’ve got a happy fish that’s up working, feeding. Yeah, he’s not, but then there’s other times, man, you see fish like on ants where fish will just dial in for whatever reason and it’s like, I want an ant and that’s all I want. 0 (1h 7m 24s): Yeah. I think it’s something about the taste with ants. I mean, oh yeah, yeah. We see that with fish in the summer, you know, that’s one, that’s one thing I would say. Yeah. Some of our fish that are getting difficult in the summer on top, you know, we’ll fish a little ant pattern bomb behind a dryly. That’s, you know, because ’cause yeah, when they kind of half sink, they’re hard to see. But if you can kind of key off of that front drive fly and see what’s going on, that’s, that’s a good tip for fish that, yeah, Dave (1h 7m 50s): That’s, so ants are killer. And what size ant typically are you using? 0 (1h 7m 55s): 14 to eighteens, you know, nothing huge and sparse little patterns that kind of drop into the film a little bit. Right. Dave (1h 8m 2s): Yeah. Juicy little ant. Yeah. Amazing. Well, one more random one here before we get outta here. I know I do, I love a lot of wood splitting as well. I’m out there. I kinda love a good fire. I’ve, So that came, came out in the, in the movie as well. Some of the, I think they talked about that. But what is that for you? Are you, is what? Is wood cutting wood, are you still doing that and what does that do for you? 0 (1h 8m 22s): I am, but I’m starting to slow down. I mean, I’m 58 and a half this year, so it’s, yeah, I’m kind of transitioning whether I want to or not. And it’s a challenge, you know, because yeah, in the wood businesses I’ve always worked for myself and it, yeah, it’s tough, you know? Yeah. Dave (1h 8m 38s): Loading up a pickup, right. 0 (1h 8m 40s): Yeah. And then tree work and stuff. Last year I had a pretty good job at a big ranch doing tree work, which I’m hoping to get back, but it’s, you know, I don’t know the economy’s, it’s interesting times, you know? Yeah. Dave (1h 8m 52s): It’s a lot of questions out there right now. 0 (1h 8m 53s): A lot of questions, a lot of hesitancy. So yeah, it’s gonna be an interesting year. And then on the, on the guiding, you know, we’ve got our water issues and stuff, but I’m, I’m looking forward to a good season and just gotta stay positive I think, and focus on your own little world as much as you can and you know, Dave (1h 9m 9s): Yeah. Keep going. How many days on the, what you mentioned of the guiding, are you getting quite a few days on the water yourself? Just for personal still? 0 (1h 9m 18s): Oh yeah, I, you know, I mean I try, I mean I, you know, and a lot of times I’ll work most of a day and then sneak off for an hour or two. I mean that, that’s what I always used to do and it’s gotten a little harder to do now that the town’s so much busier and bigger. But I still have, still have places I can sneak off to. But yeah, no, I never get enough fishing. But I will admit as I get older, yeah, sometimes it’s harder to fish like I used to when I was younger. I mean you want to, but it’s just, you know, sometimes it’s just harder to get out there. Dave (1h 9m 51s): Yeah, definitely. Well we haven’t been the San Juan. Yeah, that’s a famous river. You know, you hear a lot about it. I’ve never fished it, but I’m hoping, you know, maybe this will be the year that we can get out there and check it out, but, but yeah. Alex I think we can leave it there for today. I think this has been really cool to hear a little bit of the insider information on, you know, kind of what keeps you going there. Anything else you wanna leave us with before we get out here? 0 (1h 10m 12s): Well, if you, yeah, if you’re seriously thinking about the San Juan, there’s a guy there that he started working there just in the last few years. A guy, James Garrettson, he calls himself about trout. He might be an interesting guy for you to talk to. Okay. Dave (1h 10m 26s): Yeah, 0 (1h 10m 27s): He’s got a pretty good, you know, he’s out there on Instagram quite a bit and I think he might be open to talking to you and if you do decide to go there and fish, he would be a great person to fish with. I mean there’s a lot of other good guides there, but he’s come a long way in a short time and yeah, he’s a good guide so check him out if you get a chance, we’ll do that. Yeah, and as I said earlier, yeah, I mean I’d be happy to appear with you again sometime. There’s always more to talk about with phishing. Dave (1h 10m 53s): Yeah, definitely. No, I think we could probably go deeper on any of these topics we kind of covered highlighted today, so. So we will send everybody out to Alex Zini on Instagram if they wanna connect with you and learn more there. And we’ll keep up and also low and clear. We’ll have a link in the show notes if people wanna take a look at that, that movie there. And yeah, Alex, appreciate it again to your time and we’ll be in touch moving ahead. 0 (1h 11m 14s): Alright, thank you Dave. Yep, enjoyed it. Dave (1h 11m 18s): All right. If you had any interest in checking out this part of the world, would love if you checked in with Alex, go to Alex Zini on Instagram or just let him know you heard this podcast, upper San Juan. The San Juan, I definitely want to get out there. Love that. We talked about the turd stone, some of these patterns, he kind of breaks it down and makes it sound easy. All we know it’s not. So check in with him, please subscribe, follow this show if you get a chance. You wanna get that next episode right to your inbox. That’s a good way there. And wanted to give a shout out before we get outta here, the Missouri River trip. Go to swing.com/missouri. You can check in there. We will have more details on that trip and you can get more information. We got a limited slots for that. Dave (1h 11m 58s): We’re gonna be hitting the big, the Mighty Mo this fall about the same time, maybe a little earlier than Alex is gonna be heading to the BC and Phish if he’s going this year. But we’re gonna be hitting the Missouri big trout, big fish, lots of fish. So check in with me if you want that information and we’ll get outta here. I hope you have a great morning. Hope you have an amazing afternoon or a fantastic evening if it’s evening, wherever you are in the world. And appreciate you for stopping in all the way to the end. Talk to you then.

 

Colorado Fly Fishing, Alex Xenie Hall

 

Conclusion with Alex Xenie Hall on Colorado Fly Fishing

If today’s episode got you fired up about fishing the Upper San Juan, check in with Alex Xenie Hall! You can find him on Instagram and tell him you heard him on the podcast.

757 | Top Survival Tips for Anglers and Adventurers with Brett Stoffel of Outdoor Safe

What would you do if your wading boot slips, your ankle snaps, and you’re stranded miles from help—in the cold, wet, and dark? In this episode, we bring on Brett Stoffel from OutdoorSafe.com, a survival expert with deep roots in military and search-and-rescue training. Brett breaks down the top survival tips for anglers, the three most important items to carry with you on every fishing trip, why most people get survival wrong, and how you can be prepared without packing your entire garage. If you’ve ever wondered whether that shiny space blanket actually works (spoiler: it probably doesn’t), this episode is a must-listen.


Show Notes with Brett Stoffel on Top Survival Tips for Anglers and Adventurers. Hit play below! 👇🏻

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Episode Chapters with Brett Stoffel on Top Survival Tips for Anglers and Adventurers

From Family Roots to Survival Expert

Brett Stoffel grew up around survival training. His dad was a well-known instructor who started teaching during the Vietnam War. For Brett, learning how to prepare for emergencies was just part of everyday life. After college, Brett joined the Air Force and kept building his skills. He went through Survival School, Search and Rescue training, and even worked with combat pilots. After his military service, he joined the family business, helping everyone from Coast Guard pilots to local sheriffs learn how to stay safe.

Brett says survival training has changed a lot over the years. It used to be all about mountain man tricks, but now it’s based on science and real-life data. Still, he warns that there’s a lot of bad info out there—especially on TV. His advice? Keep it simple and stick to what really works.

Forget the Myths—Survival Is Simpler Than You Think

Brett  breaks down some of the biggest survival myths—and shares what really matters in a real emergency. One of the top questions he gets? “What do I eat?” But the truth is, food isn’t your first worry. You can go over a month without it. Most people are found within 72 hours, so survival is all about the short game.

The top three things you actually need? Shelter, fire, and signaling. Whether you’re in the desert or the Arctic, Brett says the rules are the same: figure out what will harm you first, and fix that problem. Then ask it again. Survival isn’t about eating bugs—it’s about being smart, staying dry, and keeping warm.

Why the Space Blanket Isn’t Your Best Bet

Most people think a space blanket will save them in a survival situation. Brett says: not so fast. These Mylar blankets might look high-tech, but they tear easily, don’t hold heat well, and can actually hide you from search and rescue infrared sensors. Not great when you need to be found fast.

Instead, Brett recommends using a heavy-duty plastic bag that traps warm air around your body and keeps you visible. That’s the thinking behind his 98.6 Bag—an emergency shelter that’s about the size of a wallet. You just unfold it, climb in, and let your body heat do the rest. Here’s why it works:

  • Holds your body heat like a mini greenhouse
  • Protects you from wind and rain
  • Makes you easy to spot in any terrain

If you’re wet, cold, and injured in the backcountry, staying dry and visible is your best chance at making it out safe.

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Fire: The Second Survival Must-Have

Once you’ve got shelter, it’s time to think fire. Brett recommends building a simple fire kit with cotton balls and petroleum jelly. It sounds basic, but one cotton ball can burn for up to 10 minutes, even in the rain. That’s more than enough time to light up dry twigs you gather at the base of a pine or fir tree.

Why fire matters in survival:

  • Dries your wet clothes
  • Warms your hands so you can still use them
  • Lifts your spirits and calms your mind
  • Acts as a signal to rescuers
  • Keeps animals (and bugs) away

Forget rubbing sticks together—keep it simple. Pocket fire kit, dry twigs, and a spark rod. Fire is your friend.

Don’t Lose It: Bright Gear Can Save You

Brett’s tip is simple but smart: avoid camo gear for survival tools. It might look cool, but if you drop it in the woods, it’s gone. Go for bright orange, blue, or anything that stands out. You’ll thank yourself when you can actually find your fire starter, knife, or kit when you need it.

Pro Tips:

  • Use bright duct tape or paint on important gear
  • Store your fire kit in a bright orange case like this waterproof match case
  • Choose tools you can see, not just ones that look tactical
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How to Be Seen (and Heard) When It Matters Most

One of the biggest challenges in a survival situation is letting people know where you are. Brett explains how to do this the right way. It starts with simple gear like a signal mirror and a loud whistle. These tools let you reach rescuers—especially aircraft—fast and effectively.

Key Takeaways:

  • A proper signal mirror can reflect sunlight up to 30 miles
  • Use the aiming dot to flash directly at aircraft
  • A whistle works better than yelling—it saves your energy and lasts much longer
  • Bright gear and fire also help make you visible
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What About Water?

Once you’ve tackled shelter, fire, and signaling, the next big thing is water. Brett breaks it down simply: yes, water matters—but not always how people think. You can usually go about three days without it, but that depends on temperature, exertion, and how hydrated you were to start. The good news? You’ve got options.

Best ways to stay safe drinking water:

  • Use a water filter like a LifeStraw or Sawyer
  • Carry chlorine dioxide tablets for a super lightweight, packable option
  • Bring a container like a collapsible water bag or steel bottle (for boiling if needed)
  • When in doubt, drink it—dehydration is more dangerous than a possible stomach bug

The bottom line: don’t wait until you’re in trouble to think about clean water. A few smart items in your kit can make all the difference.

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Survival Medicine: Keep It Simple, Keep It Smart

When you’re out in the woods, you can’t count on calling 911. That’s why survival medicine matters. It’s not just first aid—it’s what helps you stay safe when you’re the only help you’ve got.

Here’s what to pack:

  • Boo-boo kit: Band-aids, Neosporin, medical tape, and antibacterial wipes—things that keep small injuries from getting worse.
  • Personal meds: Bring a 10-day supply of any prescription meds you need, like allergy pills or insulin.
  • Comfort stuff: Ibuprofen, Benadryl, baby aspirin, and maybe some Imodium—just in case.
  • Food for the mind: A protein bar or hard candy helps more than you think. It keeps your head in the game.

Survival Tools: Be Ready for Anything

Tools can save the day. A good survival kit has a few solid items—not just one all-in-one gadget you might lose. Brett says to stick with simple, strong tools that actually work in the wild.

Here’s what you should pack:

  • Solid knife: No folding blades—get one strong enough to chop or spark fire.
  • Small saw: Helps with shelter and firewood when your hands aren’t enough.
  • Multi-tool: Think pliers, scissors, screwdriver—little tools for big fixes.
  • Compass: GPS is great, but it can fail. A real compass won’t.
  • Light source: Handy at night and works as a signal.
  • Avoid one-tool-does-it-all gadgets: If it breaks or gets lost, you’re out of luck.

Bring tools you know how to use, and make sure they’re easy to find if dropped—bright colors help. It’s all about being prepared without carrying a toolbox on your back.

Three OutdoorSafe Survival Kits for Any Trip

Brett keeps it simple: start with the basics, then build up if needed. He offers three survival kits, each designed for different levels of preparedness.

  • Outdoor Safe Survival Kit – This is the starter. It has the “Big 3” items: shelter, fire, and signaling tools. It fits in your pocket and covers the essentials.
  • 98.6 Kit – Adds water, medicine, and tools to the mix. Designed for pros like air crew, it still fits in a small pouch but packs way more gear.
  • Emergency Survival Kit – This one’s big and built for vehicles or families. It has everything you need to help up to four people in a longer emergency.

You don’t have to buy the full kit. Brett says even a garbage bag can be better than a fancy space blanket. Just make sure whatever you carry, you know how to use it. Practice before it matters.

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Photo via: https://outdoorsafe.com/shop/ols/products/emergency-survival-kit

Visit their website at OutdoorSafe.com.

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Resources Noted in the Show

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Episode Transcript
Dave (2s): You hear the stories, but never think it can happen to you. Maybe you’re dropping into a steep section of river, you slip on a rock, slide down and hear it break, and now what do you do? And it’s cold, it’s wet, and it’s getting dark. There are a few key pieces of gear that could save your life. And by the end of this episode, you will know which three items are a key to have on you at all times, and what common myth you should be avoiding about these. This is the wet fly swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Brett Stoffel, outdoor survival master and search and rescue teacher is gonna give us his six steps to building a survival kit and staying safe out there. Dave (45s): You’re gonna hear about the top miss, including why the survival blanket doesn’t work and what you should be using instead, how to start a fire, even if it’s pouring down rain. We’re gonna talk about how to get us fire started in any conditions and how to signal aircraft overhead, even if they’re at 20,000 feet. We’re gonna talk about all this today, so you’re gonna have to not worry at all about getting in trouble while you’re out there. Plus he’s gonna share and tell us what we need to know about treating water and some of the other common myths around this and what you should be avoiding. I can honestly say this one might save your life. Here he is, Brett Stoffel from outdoorsafe.com. How you doing Brett? Brett (1m 25s): Doing well, thanks for having me. Dave (1m 26s): Yeah, yeah. This is gonna be a real fun one. I think. You know, we talk a lot about fly fishing and outdoors. We haven’t done a ton of outdoor survive, although I know we’ve had at least a few episodes out there. The great thing today is that you are a leading expert in this field. You’ve got a, a long background that goes all the way back to your father and, and that and all that. So that’s great. And we’re gonna get into some things, I think some things that people think are basic, like, you know, shelter, like, you know, the, the survival blankets you see which out we’re gonna, we’re gonna debunk some of that. We’re gonna talk about fire signal, but really how do people stay safe because we’re out there, fly fishing and traveling around the world and stuff could happen, right? You could break an ankle, break a leg, and how do you survive, you know, say for two or three days out there in a while. So we’re gonna get into all that. Dave (2m 7s): Before we do, take us back, because I know your history is amazing. How did you get into this survival? Did it start with your dad? Brett (2m 12s): It did. So, you know, kind of growing up, my father, his name is Skip, and he is a bit of a guru in this field. So I was born and raised. He was teaching this stuff and he dealt a lot with search and rescue teams and emergency preparedness kind of at, at just about every level. So I just thought it was kind of normal. That was just kind of regular thing for me. When I got into the Air Force after I graduated from college, I had an opportunity, I was, I was flying airplanes for Uncle Sam and there’s a position there called life support. And so I was, I kind of gravitated that way just by because of my background. So I was a natural fit. So the Air Force sent me to Survival School and then they sent me to Accident Investigation School and then Search and Rescue School and, and I ran the parachute shop and the guys that did all of the training and equipment for the combat pilots in the squadrons that I was a part of. Brett (3m 6s): So that was kind of the, the formal background. And then once I finished with my, my tours in the Air force and, and that sort of thing, I eventually came back to the family business and that was really what it, you know, the, a lot of our, our, our clients were kind of ex-military flyers and, and that sort of thing. And I, I speak pilot, so that’s, that’s handy. And so working with those folks, I started kind of on, in the field and in the classroom kind of bringing what, you know, my, my background and my just, you know, expertise in terms of, of how pilots work and how what they’ve been trained on so far. Brett (3m 46s): And then how to kind of integrate that if they got themselves into trouble. So customs and border protection pilots, coast Guard pilots, and then obviously expanding out into those same arenas that my father had established in our business in terms of, you know, county sheriff’s departments looking for. They’re the ones who are, you know, boots on the ground If you get in trouble, you know, what is it, what is it you can do to make yourself, you know, a good customer of search and rescue, so to speak. Dave (4m 8s): Mm, gotcha. That’s awesome. And going back to your dad, skip stale, I love that. Right? It’s, it’s, it rhymes, it’s all that stuff, but have, have things, you know, back to the day, I’m not sure when your dad started, but If you go back, I’m guessing this is many, many years ago, have things in the survival changed that much from then until now? Brett (4m 25s): Oh my goodness. Yeah. And you know, it’s continuously, so his start, it was the Air Force as well. He was a, an actual survival instructor. So there’s a, the number of schools that the military branches use and, and he was part of the Survival School for the Air Force kind of Vietnam timeframe. And so he trained the folks that were headed to Southeast Asia directly and was part of that. And then that’s, you know, kind of the genesis of where, where our family business kind of came from when he separated from the military. But in terms of the, the, there have been several kind of watershed moments as far as survival stuff is concerned. And it was, you know, old school mountain man kind of stuff in kind of evolving and developing and adding some real science into it. Brett (5m 11s): And then a little bit of, of statistical background. But it has radically changed. And unfortunately, a lot of the stuff that’s out there, it’s kind of, you know, it’s a hard to shake kind of situation because there’s some bad information out there that I’m not, I’m not exactly sure where it comes from, but a lot of people think they know and you know, you watch TV and you watch, you read stories and magazines and all of that. And that’s the, that’s kind of where people go awry, you know, it’s, it’s common sense, honestly. Most of the survival stuff. But it’s not common knowledge, you know, that’s a little cliche statement, but that’s generally how it goes. Dave (5m 44s): Yeah. It’s common sense. That’s right. And we’re gonna talk about that today. What, maybe just on on that bad info, I mean, I know one of those things like, I think everybody has probably right now or seen as the survival blankets, but what’s some of the mis, you know, misinformation or bad information that’s out there? Oh, Brett (5m 58s): For sure. Well, the big one that people come in. So yeah, we’ll get into space blankets and, and, and all of that sort of thing as well. ’cause there’s misinformation in that department. But the first thing that people always ask me is when we’re out there in the woods, it’s like, what do I eat in a survival situation? I mean, a human being takes 45 to 60 days before you even are in the realm of, of having to worry about starving to death. So I mean, that’s, you know, that’s measured in months, not measured in, in days or hours like most people. ’cause you know, most of us have people in our families or things that are going on where, you know, If you, If you miss lunch, you know, you get hangry and, and it’s a, it’s a life or death struggle. So there’s a lot of misinformation about food foraging for edible plants and animals and, and all of that sort of a thing. Brett (6m 43s): And frankly, it, it just isn’t that big of priority. It’s not that it’s a zero priority, but it’s, it’s generally speaking, I mean, most survival situations, this is another myth. People think, you know, castaway or you know, Robin Caruso kind of situation where you’re gonna be isolated for weeks on end. We have a database of hundreds of thousands of cases that we, that we take a look at. And, you know, 98% ish are completely resolved in 72 hours or less. So when you start thinking about how long is one of these situations really, what should I expect? It’s possible to go longer, obviously, but statistically speaking, three days is not very long. Brett (7m 26s): But If you look at the timing, that in and of itself kind of colors up what you should do in terms of getting ready and the equipment that you take, protecting yourself in the Pacific Northwest, for example, for three days, is that can be a challenge. Yeah. Especially, you know, you’re in the Central Cascades or if it’s February or, or whatever the case may be, a little bit of a challenge. And it’s relatively hostile to human beings kind of in our, you know, especially if we were out there in our birthday suit. So that’s, that’s kind of where we start and let’s we use what, what we call the priorities and necessities to kind of color that, that discussion. Dave (8m 1s): That’s amazing. No, I love, I love where you’re going here because I think simplifying this is a great way and getting rid of the misnomers out there, right, which is Yeah. Food and trying to survive. So I, I mean, that’s one big thing, you know, we’ll talk more about that, but, you know, we’re traveling also This year we’re heading up to Alaska, right? We’re actually gonna be doing like a road trip up there. I’m gonna be doing some remote stuff and, and does this, everything you talk about, does this apply whether you’re up way up in the Alaska where it’s super cold or way down in the desert where it’s super Brett (8m 26s): Hot? Yeah. It, it applies everywhere. And so the base needs that a human being kind of comes together with, they’re the same. I mean the human animal, the human machine, however you wanna look at it, If you provide the things that the body needs, you get survival. And that’s kind of the way to approach it as opposed to, you know, where in particular you are, the, the body’s needs are the same, the environment changes. So I still need the same things, but if I am in the tropics of, say, Panama versus the North Slope in Alaska, though, providing those requirements is, is a different situation. I, I need to get to the same place, but now I’ve got different challenges, you know, cold versus hot, humid versus dry, you know, snow and frozen versus windy rain and mosquitoes. Brett (9m 15s): You know, there’s, there’s all kinds of different potentials. Dave (9m 17s): Yeah. Is your the kit, and we’re gonna talk about that. That’s when we, I think I first, we first connected, although I’ve seen your name out there, but you have a kit you can get, which is amazing. And I think you were showing me how to start a fire and stuff, but maybe talk about that a little bit, and I don’t know If you wanna talk about the, the fire shelter and kinda the three top things. Brett (9m 35s): Yeah. So there’s kind of a priority list and you’ve, you’ve intimated it a couple of times and, you know, shelter, fire and signaling are kind of the top three priorities, especially in, you know, we kind of focus on North America just because that’s where most of us are. There are other considerations depending on, you know, open water or desert or tropics, you know, all of those kinds of things. And we start to get into that as you start to travel south in the United States in particular, but you’re talking, especially in Alaska, that sort of thing. Shelter really does rise to the top. And it’s all about, you know, the priorities in necessities. You have to ask yourself in this environment, what is the thing that’s gonna kill me first? And not to be macabre, but it’s, it’s truly, that’s the question to ask. Brett (10m 17s): So what’s gonna kill me first? And that’s what you focus on and that becomes the problem at hand. And when you solve that problem, guess what question you ask now, now what’s gonna kill me first? Dave (10m 28s): Right, right, right. Yeah, Brett (10m 30s): Rinse and repeat until you’re not in the situation in anymore. And that, that truly is the, the, the scenario. The other thing that I’ll add, just on a myth and misconception, there’s nothing really glamorous about being risk taking and or doing goofy things, you know, forwarding the river or swinging from a cliff on a jungle vine or something like that, that you see in some of the popular materials. If you’re, if you’re bored and warm, you know, so much so that you’re falling asleep. I mean, that you, you kind of are the ultimate survivor. So it’s, it’s a, it’s a bit of a paradigm. Dave (11m 3s): So If you can fall asleep, if you’re in a survival situation, I, and I always love to think of examples like the cool, I mean, not, not the cool, but the interesting thing is we we’re around water a lot, you know? Right. And I’ve heard lots of things. I have friends that are kayakers and they say the number one death is when people are just walking in the stream because of foot entrapment. But, you know, I can imagine somebody’s out there, they’re fishing or they’re doing whatever, and they maybe break an ankle or, or leg and they can’t walk out. Right. But they’re, and they’re wet. So what would be in that situation? Is that something where you could guide us today? You know what I mean? Like, just talk Brett (11m 33s): About it. Oh my gosh, absolutely. Okay. So the first, you know, when you’re, so you start talking about wat, and this ties right into that number one priority as far as shelter. So when you’re wet, you’ve got a real obstacle course in front of you. And the reason is because of water’s heat carrying capacity. So not to get into the weeds too much, but, but water by itself, just solid water conducts heat 25 times better than air at the same temperature. So what happens is, when you’re in the water, the danger is how much heat is dumping into that water. It’s a, you know, it’s a law of thermodynamics that the, the thing that’s warmer dumps heat into the thing that’s colder, and that water is a lot colder and it just keeps carrying your heat away and your body can’t keep up with it. Brett (12m 15s): So If you get into the water, you know, there’s some, some interesting examples of this. Most of it have been in a swimming pool, in a hot environment or something. You get out of the pool and there’s a gust of wind and it feels cold on your skin, and so you’re like, oh, I need to get back in the water because it feels warmer. Hmm. If you follow that, that urge, that’s the wrong answer. Your body can deal with the wet way better. So getting un wet starts to be a priority, but not to the point. I’m not, I’m not advocating that you strip down naked or anything like that. This gets into clothing selection. So things that have insulating value, even when they are wet. So that’s where, you know, your wolves and some synthetics that are out there as well, that will keep insulating. Brett (12m 55s): They’re hydrophobic, which means they, they don’t tolerate, you know, water, they, they wick the water away, et cetera. So that’s a real help. So getting as dry as you can and then starting to insulate yourself such that you can be protected from the wind, which generates convective heat loss and the water that’s associated with that as well. So protecting yourself. And there’s some pretty simple things that you can do in that regard. So if you’ve got good gear and you can fish out your, your rain gear, for example, that’s, that’s great. But If you don’t even something like a big plastic bag, you can put that on there. The bag creates a volume of trapped air. Your body heats up that air that’s inside of that bag with you, and now you’ve got a protection from the wind and the colder environment outside. Brett (13m 37s): So even something like that is a, is a good technique to carry, like in a hip pocket or something like that. Dave (13m 42s): Gotcha. So that, and that goes back to, so If you, If you were to, in this example, fall into the water, say it’s wintertime, you’re steelhead fishing and you’re freezing, it’s cold out there, you get out, you’re like, oh my God, what do I do? Maybe you’ve even broken something, you can’t walk. So the first thing isn’t to strip naked, it’s to literally hope you have some gear on that’s still wet as that, and then you get the bag around you. Yeah, Brett (14m 2s): Exactly. So getting as much of the water off as you can, so you want to get it as dry as possible. So here’s another tip, being prepared for something like that. There are some things that really do enhance your comfort. And IE you know, I would say maybe a base layer that’s in a big Ziploc bag or something that’s a, you know, that’s waterproof. So that If you do have a situation like that, you can kind of change that layer and down below. So now you can put some dry socks on. You can put maybe some dry long underwear and you know, if you’ve got even like a food saver vacuum packer or something like that, you put a, a thin dry base layer in a bag and vacuum seal it, it doesn’t take up much room and it doesn’t weigh very much. Dave (14m 45s): If you’re looking for a world-class fly fishing experience, it’s time to check out Mountain Waters Resort. Nestled along Newfoundland’s, legendary Portland Creek. This spot has a history that runs as deep as the Atlantic Salmon that call it home once they fly fishing. Retreat for the great Lee Wolf. Today. It’s your turn to step into these historic waters and swing up your salmon This year. You can head over to wetly swing.com/mountain Waters right now and make it happen. That’s wet fly swing.com/mountain Waters. Let’s get out there today. Check out Jackson Hole Fly company today. Premium fly gear straight to your door without the premium price. Jackson Hole fly company designs and builds their own fly rods, reels, flies, and gear delivering quality you can trust at prices that let you fish more and spend less. Dave (15m 33s): Whether you’re picking up a fly rod for the first time or guiding every day they’ve got what you need, check ’em out right now. That’s Jackson hole fly company.com. Jackson hole fly company.com. Part of this too, we might not get to this today, but I’ve also been thinking about the go bag, right? You hear about this a lot. Oh yeah, you live on the coast, tsunami warnings, you know, you live, you’re living town. You’re like, well, earthquakes. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, stuff could happen. Like that’s the reality of it. And so the go bag, I think is another level, right? Because you maybe are out there longer than three days or something, but for what we’re talking about, you know, you’re saying, yeah, have that gear in there, have the extra base layer, the wool I love, I mean, I think wool feels like it’s like just that one natural thing that nothing has ever come close to. Dave (16m 18s): But so If you, if that person was wet and let’s say they didn’t have a backup layer, so you basically would say, take your stuff out, squish it out, get out the water, put it back on. Now it’s still damp, but now you have that. And then let’s talk about this bag because I have, right now I have a one of those space blankets. It folds up so small, but tell us why that is kind of a myth and why that maybe isn’t the best thing. Oh Brett (16m 39s): Yeah. Where do I, I’m on a bit of a crusade against these space blankets. Yeah. And, and not from the fact that they’re useless. They’re, that’s not the case. But there are so many better options. So this, this Mylar space blanket, you know, and there’s a lot of different varieties out there. There’s not one that’s in particular, but they’re, they are ubiquitous, they’re everywhere. You, they go by the bucket full, it’s sporting goods stores and, and things like that. The blanket itself, what it’s claim to fame is that it, it doesn’t absorb heat, it reflects a hundred percent of the infrared energy that hits it. So the idea is you’re like, oh, that’s awesome. I’ll just wrap it around myself and my heat will reflect back to me and it’ll help to keep me warm. The problem is with those little blankets, they don’t reflect it, it doesn’t contain the heat. Brett (17m 22s): So the heat does hit it and reflect off. It just bounces around and then leaves and they’re a little bit noisy. Yeah, they’re number two, number three, kind of changing gears from a search and rescue perspective, because they don’t absorb any heat and they reflect it completely. They work as active camouflage for any kind of infrared sensor. So a forward-looking infrared, say on a helicopter or an aircraft, you get underneath it, you will literally disappear. Oh wow. The other is the, the reflective coating on the outside. People are like, oh, it’s shiny. It’ll be easy to see. No, the common distance where you get away from that, it’s a mirror. So it reflects all of the, of the, the surrounding terrain and, and vegetation and everything else. Brett (18m 8s): So it’s active camouflage. I mean, you can’t see it visually. It makes you blend in it, it hides from the infrared and it doesn’t do a super good job of protecting you from a heat perspective. Now, If you have nothing else, and that’s all you have, yeah, it is windproof and waterproof If you can get it to stay together. Most of those space blankets are about 10 microns thick. So that’s the width of a human hair. And If you poke a hole in it anywhere, it loses all of its strength and integrity. So it shreds. So, and you know, it’s one thing in a gymnasium or in a, you know, kind of, Dave (18m 45s): Yeah, like a without without sticks and pokey things, right? Brett (18m 48s): So we, when you wrap this thing around and lean up against a tree, for example, you know, the bark on a tree or a, a sticker bush or something like that, that grabs it. What you end up with is Swiss cheese as far as that. And then when you sneeze, it comes apart. So it’s literally, you know, I say that kind of ingest, but that’s, it’s kind of this, this avalanche of negativity when you deal with it. So I always think about space blankets and say, okay, I’m gonna put ’em in my first aid kit. So there, it’s a windproof waterproof layer that I could potentially use. We use ’em, I’m a volunteer ski patroller. So if, if we get a, a patient that is hypothermic, you know, we’ll wrap ’em in a space blanket like a burrito, and then we put a wool blanket around that. Dave (19m 27s): Okay. So you will use that, that splay spank for in some situations? Brett (19m 31s): In some situations, yes. But the problem is the rough and tumble is where they just are miserable. And then the connection to what they do to search and rescue sensors. And they make it difficult to see what you end up with in an integral bag. Instead now we start moving up, you get a heavy duty plastic bag, for example, that’s, that’s lined with Mylar. So that would be what we would call an emergency bivy. That’s kind of the next step up from a basic plastic bag and or space blanket. The combination of the two is actually effective. So If you have something there, but unfortunately what you get with an emergency bivy is something that costs you 30, 40 bucks. So we’re out of the, put it in your pocket, don’t worry about it. ’cause it’s super cheap, which is where the plastic bag comes into play. Dave (20m 12s): What is the, maybe we can go, I mean, your kit essentially maybe talk about, you had that there, this thing that’s like over six feet tall, it’s three feet wide. Talk about this. Is that what this thing is? Yeah, Brett (20m 23s): It’s exactly, we call it an immediate action shelter bag. My, my brand name is called a 98.6 bag, but really it’s a big plastic bag. And the plastic itself, the actual bag, I mean, If you went and got a contractor bag at Home Depot, it would do the same thing. It’s just kind of a different color and maybe not as big. But what happens is it traps air inside the bag and that air cannot circulate to the outside. So similar to the way a wetsuit works, you know, it traps that material on the inside and then your body becomes the source of heat on the inside and it just raises it up. So, you know, environmentally it could be, you know, close to freezing outside, maybe even into the teens, your body can warm that air that’s inside the bag and it can’t circulate. Brett (21m 6s): So you’ll create an environment that’s 50, 60 degrees Fahrenheit inside the bag as opposed to the freezing subfreezing temperatures that are outside. And that is much, much easier to deal with. Now you couple that with brightly colored, so that’s where the, that’s where the blue color of our bag comes in. The blue color that we use, it’s a bright royal blue. It doesn’t occur in the natural world. So it contrasts with every environment. So you stand out, you stick out like a sore thumb If you use a black contractor bag, yes, they’re, they’re cheaper. You can get, you know, 200 of ’em for, for 20 bucks at a, at a home improvement store. But you, you look like a shadow or a rock from distance. Right. So, you know, those are, there’s just, there’s kind of a multi-layered kind of approach. Brett (21m 49s): So you kind of, we try to hit a lot of these things, you know, just kind of without saying. Yeah. Dave (21m 54s): Got it. So I’m looking at now, yeah, the 90, 98 0.6 bag on outdoor safe.com. And actually right here it’s $10 nine. Nine nine. Yep. Brett (22m 1s): That’s for a vacuum packed one. Okay. So a vacuum packed one. And it has a face hold that’s precut in it. That’s a, that, so there is one for $7, that’s just basically a bag and we put a little razor blade in there. ’cause you can do a lot of different things with those as well. Dave (22m 13s): So the cool thing about this bag is first you have the color. So now people, they can see you out there. And this thing has, so it’s lined with the Mylar inside of Brett (22m 20s): This? No, no, this one is not, it’s just a plastic bag. So If you put the Mylar inside, that becomes an emergency. Vivy is kind of the class for that is, and that you’re gonna be talking, you know, 30 bucks. Oh, I see. 40 bucks for something like that. Dave (22m 33s): But for our pack that, let’s say, I’m trying to think of the pack. Okay, you’re out there fishing or, or hiking. How small does this, is this something like that would go in your pocket? Brett (22m 40s): It would. So it’s about the size of a, of a wallet. Oh wow. It’s kind of what it’s, yeah. So you fold it up, it’s vacuum packed, vacuum sealed down, and it doesn’t have an expiration date or anything like that. As long as it stays vacuum sealed, it stays small. There’s nothing expiring about it or anything like that. It just makes it really small when it’s vacuum packed like that. And, and then when you need it, you take it out. And the point about some of this gear and some of these concepts, yeah, you can do a lot in terms of protecting yourself, but you, you know, give me a, the back of a pickup truck and I’ll make a hell of a survival kit. Is, is kind of what it boils down to. You’ll be comfortable, but if it’s complicated and difficult to carry and heavy and, you know, people won’t, they don’t use it because, you know, there there’s this, this another myth, you know, it always happens to someone else. Brett (23m 23s): Oh, right. Yeah. So these comments, you know, these, these concepts are, you know, it’s, it’s not a big deal until it’s a really big deal. Yeah, Dave (23m 30s): No, and that’s what we’re getting at today. I mean, I think that probably a lot of people listening, you know, probably have never had a need for this. Right, right. But you never know when that next time could happen, you know? And that’s, I think what we’re building. So, so your kits are basically built, you have some different levels, but they’re made to be pretty compact and you could take with you, so you could throw it, you know, everybody here is probably gonna be wearing a fly fishing vest or, you know, something like that or a pack. Brett (23m 53s): Totally. So my thought is, okay, let’s do, let’s make some kind of immediate action shelter that someone can put in their fishing vest or they can put in their back pocket while they’re wearing their fishing vest. And that way if it’s easy and you just kind of put it in there and forget about it, then you’re good to go. And that’s the, we, we’ve kind of won the battle and you don’t need it till you need it. And then, you know, there we go. Dave (24m 13s): That’s it. Is it better to use, you have the two here, the one that’s the precut with, you know, already the f Is it better to have that, or should you have the one that’s not precut that way you can build like a tank? Brett (24m 22s): You know, it really depends on how much you want to get involved in terms of different environments and different ways to, to use it. Right. So, so the precut is literally, you don’t have to do anything. All you have to do is open the package. You can put it on. So that’s the idea. The one with the, the razor blade in it. Now you’ve got a little bit of a cutting tool, but there are other instances, other things that you can use the bag with. So, you know, like for example, if I go to out on a boat, I mentioned it works like a wetsuit. It actually does work just like a wetsuit. So as long as you had some kind of flotation, you can get inside the bag full of water and literally use it, you’d triple your survival time in cold water because of that. Brett (25m 5s): So like If Dave (25m 5s): You Oh wow. Brett (25m 6s): If you were offshore or If you were out, you know, if you’ve got one of those, so there’s, there’s more uses Dave (25m 11s): For it. No kidding. So If you were out in the ocean, you didn’t have a whatever suit, you could literally put this thing on and it would do it be like a wetsuit. Brett (25m 18s): Exactly. Right. And you do it inverted. So in the land, I’d put it with the closed end on top of my head. And then I’d have a face hole that I could stick my face through in the ocean, in the water, open water. I would get into it, you know, kind of feet first in the bottom of the bag and pull it up over the top of my head where the opening portion was and hold it closed while I’ve got a life preserver on, you know, that sort of flotation. And that’s the, the effectiveness of it. So your body starts to warm that water up and now you, that heat carrying capacity of the water, it starts heating up immediately. And the trick is, you know, you know, huge body of water, the water just keeps circulating, right? The warm water just moves away. But If you trap it and it’s connected to your body inside the bag, that gives you that, that amount of water that you can actually warm up and then it starts to provide a little bit of insulation for you instead of just kind of dumping your heat continuously. Dave (26m 7s): Amazing. So this is awesome. So we’ve got this now itch. And again, back to our story. Let’s say you fall in the water, you’re wet, you’ve maybe broken something so you could get your clothes kind of squeezed out and they’re still wet, but you could put this over you and do you just keep this over you for hours and hours? Brett (26m 23s): You do. And so what will happen eventually, especially if you’re wet, the heat will start to evaporate some of that water and it’ll start to condense on the inside of the bag. ’cause it’s like any, you know, most people have worn like a rubber rain suit, you know, or If you button up a tent, you know, with the rain fly on everything you get, it gets a bunch of moisture on the inside. So after an hour or two, when you start to visibly see that condensation on the inside, you simply take the bag off, vent it, turn it inside out, and put it on again. And you keep doing that. So it’s not, you know, a misconception, you know, people think they’re like, oh gosh, this is gonna be like the, the Hilton, right? It’ll be, it’s not like cuddling up into a, a feather bed at the Hilton Hotel. Brett (27m 5s): No, no connection to Hilton by the way. Right. So, but what you end up with is, you know, it’s protecting you. It’s giving you that layer of protection so that your body can compensate for the environment you find yourself. Dave (27m 18s): When would you use the, you know, have the tent, why build a tent versus say this? ’cause If you have the tent, let’s just say you have one of these things, then you’re gonna have this tent without anything over your body. Brett (27m 28s): Yes, exactly. So you know, you put over, you know, like a tent, like pitching a tent. Yeah. Dave (27m 33s): Like actually making a shelter. Why would you do that? Why not? If it’s, If you’re out there for say, let’s just say the seven two hours, why not just use this bag? Brett (27m 39s): Yeah. So the effort that’s required to put something like that as a shelter is concerned. I don’t know If you’ve ever tried to build one of these shelters that you’re describing. Dave (27m 47s): Yeah. It’s not easy. Brett (27m 48s): No, it’s not easy at all. And windproof waterproof is something that, I mean, I basically, I stand up in front of classrooms all the time and I say in an improvised scenario, it’s impossible to build a windproof waterproof shelter with nothing but natural stuff in your hands. I mean, that’s, it’s not actually impossible, you know, on from a MythBusters kind of sense. Yeah. But it is incredibly difficult. And when you throw injury in, and the environment itself, If you’re a, a fisherman and you’re in cold water, I mean your steelhead scenario in particular, I mean, you lose dexterity and strength in your hands very quickly when you get exposed to those cold environments and when you’re wet. And so we have to prevent that. And the, the faster you, If you don’t guard that 98.6, you lose your mental capacity, you lose your ability strength. Brett (28m 34s): I mean, it’s hard to even button up your coat or use a zipper, let alone construct some fantastic shelter out of natural materials. Dave (28m 42s): Right, right, right. That’s awesome. So basically the number one thing is like we’re saying, and the photo is great because it’s a guy that’s at on your website, outdoor safety.com. It’s a guy wrapped up and he is got his head sticking out and he’s, you know, looking like he’s getting ready to fall asleep, maybe, you know, not super. Yep. But so you have that go to the next, let’s talk about the next thing because fire fire’s tough. Brett (29m 2s): Okay, so fire, so fire becomes the next stage. So shelter, fire. So, and this, by the way, this list of priorities are the pieces of equipment that I, that I recommend that you carry. So something, it doesn’t have to be a 98.6 bag, although, you know, it wouldn’t hurt my feelings if that was what people carried. But you go through there, it’s something to protect yourself from the environment. That’s windproof, that’s waterproof and that stands out. So the next category is fire making, fire craft. So a way to reliably make a fire no matter what the environment is, when it’s wet, when it’s windy, when it’s cold, you know, all of those. Can you do it when you’ve got your dominant hand injured, for example. So that’s some, it’s a skillset for sure. But there are some materials that you can use. Brett (29m 42s): And we use, we use erum and cotton and Vaseline of all things. Those two in combination. So I usually have a little fire kit that I put together and it takes up even less room than the shelter bag does. And so this gets, just gets added into maybe another pocket or into a container that, you know, I I, in case of emergency, you know, unzip this pouch. Dave (30m 3s): Yep. And so the kit, so the fire is, and you did this when we were there, you know? Yeah. And I saw you, you were like, this is how it is. Because the struggle is, again, let’s say you’re in a wet environment and everything’s wet around you. How do you even start the fire, first of all? And this is what you do, you get caught in mixed with a bunch of Vaseline put into a little container. Brett (30m 20s): Yeah. So the Vaseline and the, the, so the cotton burns really, really easily. It catches on fire with a spark. That’s what makes it great. But all of us have have seen what a cotton ball would do. If you expose it to a couple of drips of water, it just absorbs it. And then you don’t have a snowballs chance and you don’t where of getting it started. So what you end up with the Vaseline petroleum jelly, it coats all those cotton fibers and protects ’em. ’cause Vaseline doesn’t mix with water. So it repels the water. And Vaseline actually burns really well. It just has a high flashpoint. So the cotton takes, the sparks starts burning lights, the Vaseline, it’s like a candle. It’s kind of the effect. So it’s a Vaseline candle that you’re packing around with you. But a little, a single cotton ball will burn for almost 10 minutes. Brett (31m 2s): And so it’s 10 minutes of open flame to get something else burning. Now in the Pacific Northwest in certain areas, I mean you go over to the Olympic peninsula, for example, in Washington state, I mean 144 inches of rain every year. That’s 12 feet of water on every square inch of the land. So everything is soaking sopping wet. And so what you need is something small. So you’re asking, Hey, what do I burn? You’re not gonna rub two sticks together in that environment ever to get a fire started. So you need something that works well. And this, this pharaoh rod metal match is what I call it. It’s an alloy of a combination of metals that makes sparks no matter what. And it doesn’t matter what the temperature is, whether it’s wet or dry, you make those sparks and those sparks are like 5,000, 6,000 degrees Fahrenheit. Brett (31m 46s): But they’re really, really brief. And so what you end up with is a, a shower of sparks. They hit those cotton fibers, you tear one that cotton ball apart that you’ve packed and it hits those, those sparks hit those little cotton fibers and they light. And then you have 10 minutes of flame. So before you light up the cotton ball going out into the environment and you want something that’s as protected from the environment, wet as you can find. And the best place to get it is think toothpicks is kind of the size of the wood that you’re looking for. But If you get into conifers in particular, that’s a, you know, cone bearing, right? So people say pine trees, that that’s one type of cone bearing, you know, fur trees, same thing. Brett (32m 28s): Spruce trees will do that. You get up underneath right next to the trunk of the tree, a a one that’s kind of a juvenile or even a, a fully mature one. The canopy of needles that are on the outside prevent light from getting into the core of the tree right next to the trunk. And what will happen is you’ll get a whole bunch of toothpick size branches from when the tree was younger that don’t have needles on ’em anymore, and the tree isn’t wasting energy on ’em. ’cause there’s no light for photosynthesis in there. But you’ve got all these little toothpicks on the inside that are, that are protected from the environment and bone dry. And that’s what you’re looking for. So you get up in, right next to the trunk of a conifer, and you look for those little dry toothpicks and you gather ’em and you get a big bundle, like a whole handful. Brett (33m 13s): And that’s gonna be the first stage even in the, in the rainforest of the Pacific Northwest. That technique will work. And the small branches, the little cotton ball fire, it dries ’em out, then they, the temperature comes up and then they catch on fire. Dave (33m 27s): So what you’re saying is you go to the base of any of these conifer trees and just Right, right at the base of the trunk, just grab some of the, the foliage or whatever’s right there. Brett (33m 35s): It’s not the foliage, it’s literally the, the branches themselves that don’t have any needles on ’em. The branches, the wood on the inside, the little tiny, this thin as you can find, I mean the thinner the better if it’s the diameter of a toothpick. You’re right what I’m talking about. And it’s dead and dry. So standing dead is what we talk about. The a big mistake in fire craft that people make, they do two things. Number one, they pick up off the ground anything that they can find and the stuff that’s on the ground is wet. And that just means all that water has to be evaporated before it will catch on fire. And 10 minutes might not be enough, especially if it’s larger. But If you get in something that’s toothpick size, even if it is moist on the outside, it’ll dry out. Brett (34m 18s): The other technique, especially in a wet environment, if there’s any moss or lichen, you know, they call that goats beard or oats old man’s beard on that stuff. Get rid of all of that before you try to light it on fire. Dave (34m 28s): Oh, you don’t want moss or any of that stuff either. Yeah, Brett (34m 31s): Moss actually gets its water from the air, from the relative humidity in the air. So I mean there’s, and water, if water’s a fire extinguisher, it doesn’t make things burn better. Right? Yeah. So we wanna get rid of the water if we can. Dave (34m 42s): Yeah. So, and that’s what we’re doing with the fire. The fire is kind of burning some of the, but If you get the small toothpicks and that’s gonna start your fire. And then what would be, and then what do you do? Do you just get branches that are Brett (34m 51s): Now branches? Exactly. So go into the same place. Those branches, the little tiny toothpicks are gonna be attached to things that are the size of a pencil or your little finger. And then that’s the next stage. And then after that, you get something that’s, you know, the diameter of your thumb and then you get something that’s, you know, the size, you know, maybe an inch and a half in diameter. And at that point when you’ve got inch and a half in diameter burning, you can put wet wood on that and it’ll eventually dry out and catch and everything else. So it’s just, it’s a building process and that’s the part what you don’t want is, you know, when your cotton ball burns out after 10 minutes to have a bunch of black sticks and not a burning fire. And that’s the, that’s the way you do it. Dave (35m 29s): Okay. And why is, you know, let’s just take this scenario. You’re gonna be out there for seven, two hours. Why is fire important if you’re not cooking anything? Brett (35m 36s): Well, so what we end up with is a heat source. Okay. So the heat source, now we’ve got a way to continue to dry out and as soon as our materials, our clothing is dry, so we put the, the shelter bag on, we’ve got a way that infrared actually goes through the plastic and it warms up the air on the inside. So you got a little bit of a muggy environment inside of that thing. But I’m trying to get rid of the moisture in my clothing, number one. And number two, now I’ve got a way to get my hands warmed up to get some circulation in there. And now my hands are gonna work better. I’m protecting my faculties. That 98.6 temperature on the inside, it enhances that. Dave (36m 13s): Yeah. Gotcha. And then once you get a fire going, you can what, start to take off some of those clothing layers and dry ’em off. Brett (36m 19s): You can, you can take off the layers, dry ’em out, and then when they’re dry, put ’em back on and now you’ve just enhanced again. And that’s kind of the, that’s kind of the ultimate in your situation, those getting dry and getting a fire started are probably the two big. Dave (36m 32s): Yeah, those are the big ones. Brett (36m 33s): And then what you end up with, with the fire is it’s a signal of a sort as Dave (36m 36s): Well, oh, and a signal. So it serves Brett (36m 38s): Multiple purposes. Right. The smoke is visible, the light is visible at night when it gets dark, now you have, you know, you can actually work a little bit. It’ll keep the critters away. You know, animals and, and insects are both, you know, so fire becomes an enhancement for mental state. It becomes, it’s multi-tiered, but you know, it’s an enhancement to the shelter as well. And then the final, the final piece at that point is, is signaling. That’s the big three, right? Shelter, fire signaling. Dave (37m 5s): Yeah. Well, before you get into signal, I wanna, I wanna tee this up because this is great. First of all, you said that the fire is good for like, if people worried about edibles, like cougars do not like fires if they see a big fi a fire going Exactly. They’re probably not gonna come mess with your bears or whatever if you’re up in Alaska. Yep. We did this, it was interesting. I, you know, I wish I would’ve had your survival kit. I probably would’ve been less worried. But we, we were in the middle of Alaska, this was quite a few years ago. Our, our boat broke down and we were just like on a gravel bar in the middle of like literally the Yukon Delta 20 million acre wildlife refuge. Yep. And we were like, okay, what do we do? No food, you know, we had waiters on, so literally we started a fire, I, we slept in our waiters, had the shotgun with this. Next we go for bears and we went down and caught a couple coho and ate some food. Dave (37m 48s): You know what I mean? The next morning our friend came, like you said, less than seven, two hours, the next boat came and they found us broke down. But you know, in that situation, the fire was key because it, it felt like, you know, we stayed warm. Right. That was key. But it just kept our mental right. Yeah. We call Brett (38m 1s): It survival tv, you know? Yeah. It’s always the same channel, but everybody loves it and it’s always the same show. Right, Dave (38m 7s): Right. You never get tired of it. That’s awesome. Okay, so we’re gonna add the feral rod basically to our gear kit. And then also you mentioned the cotton, you know, the Vaseline and that can just go into whatever, like waterproof container sort of thing. Brett (38m 19s): Exactly. So some people will put it into, you know, they try to get a little chintzy and they’ll, they’ll put it in a Ziploc bag. And that works great for, for a few minutes. I it longer than a few minutes, but a season in your bag, If you put a, a Ziploc bag into your gear and then leave it there for a year, it’s gonna get a bunch of pin holes in it. And then the next summer when it’s in the trunk and it’s 120 degrees in the trunk, it will melt and it’ll get all over your gear. Dave (38m 45s): Oh. So don’t do that. So what is the, is it the little orange, like Brett (38m 49s): Yeah, there’s little orange match case. Those work. Well you can go. And so here’s another key, just a generalized tip. If you have a piece of equipment, Americans in particular are infatuated with tactically colored stuff od green black steel, gray camo stuff, right? Well, If you drop something that is camo steel gray or forest green in the forest, you do not have any chance of finding it again. So something that is critical, your survival gear bright orange, I have blue duct tape, for example. I, you know, I put these flashes of color on my gear that I don’t wanna lose. I mean my survival knife, it’s got just search and rescue orange on the tip and on the, the sheath is that color as opposed to the one that I could get. Brett (39m 35s): I mean, it looks cooler to carry an od green knife on your hip, I guarantee you. As opposed to this one that looks like a, you know, a clown should be carrying it, but, but when you drop that, you can find it, it sticks out. It’s like, oh, there it is. I mean, from 20 yards away you can see it. And that’s one of those things that, you know, something that you don’t want. So your fire kit, I mean, put it in a, in a bright orange bag, your little Tinder source that you’re gonna, you know, light cotton on fire, put it in a, don’t put it in an od green plastic one. Get a bright orange or a bright blue one. Dave (40m 5s): Okay. So that’s good. So use the bright orange and then you mentioned the blue. So do you need, in this kit, do you need matches? It seems like the feral rod is, is pretty much your Brett (40m 13s): Match. No, I, well, so they always talk about using, you know, this is an old a boy scout trick, you know, when I was a kid there’s like always have two methods to start a fire and it’s, it’s one of those well, so i, I mistakenly thought, oh, I’ll get a, a method that works and then I’ll have to do something else. So the classic would be like a feral rod or a lighter and then matches as a secondary. Right. It’s like me personally, I take two feral rods. Yeah. The reason for that is If you lose your primary, you’ve got something that works as a backup. Well that feral rod, it is universal. I mean, matches work great as long as you keep ’em dry. I dunno If you ever try to light a wet match, but it’s, it’s not fun or easy. Dave (40m 50s): Yeah. I don’t like the ma. Yeah, this is great. So I could see us having Yeah, the little quick pocket thing with the feral rod and then maybe in your, in your pack you got another feral rod in there. Brett (40m 58s): Totally. That’s how I do it. Yeah. Dave (40m 60s): In case something happens and you lose your pack and now you at least have the three things. Brett (41m 4s): Well, and it, even those little, even those little match cases that we recommend, those have a little tiny strip of feral rod on the end. Oh they do. And so there’s maybe two or three strikes worth of sparks that you get there just as an absolute backup. So there’s, you know, again, there’s multi-layers of, of being prepared as you go through there. Dave (41m 22s): Yeah. This is awesome. Yeah. So the fair rod’s huge. So the third thing, at least in this is the signal, which is another game changer for me because explain that you showed me that. But this, this is pretty awesome because there’s lots of planes overhead, right? There Brett (41m 35s): Are, and so what you end up with is you’ve got so aircraft for sure search and rescue teams, but you, you already hit the nail on the head as to why you need this signal. You, you were talking about this 20,000 acre Yeah. You know, wildlife refuge, right? That’s a big piece of ground. And so how do you reach out and let someone know that you are in trouble? And that’s the thing, I, I have to get the attention of someone who can potentially help me. And that’s what signaling is all about. So there’s a couple of ways to do it. Probably the most effective daytime signal that’s out there is what’s called a signal mirror. So that reflects the sun, but you need the sun in that case. So there are pieces of equipment now signaling at night some kind of an artificial light source is appropriate. Brett (42m 19s): So that’s where your fire comes in. The smoke in the daytime is also a signal if there’s search and rescue in those areas, and this is where that multi-tier kind of stuff comes in. So if our shelter bag is bright blue and sticks out like a sore thumb and we enhance that shelter with the fire, and then when it starts to get dusky, that fire sticks out like a sore thumb. And now a helicopter’s out there with forward looking infrared and low light night vision, they can see that fire from 50, 60 miles away if they’re up at altitude. Wow. So I mean all of a sudden all of these things and then when they get close, it’s like there’s this wash of green vegetation and then this little bright blue thing over there and they’re like, what is that blue thing? So now all of a sudden it starts to make sense why you integrate all of these things together to make it easier. Brett (43m 3s): You know, one of the most important signals, and this it’s a little bit, I’m tongue in cheek when I’m saying this, is to let somebody know where you’re going and what your plan is so that when you don’t come home on Sunday night, they realize that you’re not just being a flake and you’re gonna be out there for three extra days or whatever. And that’s what starts the rescue process. Dave (43m 20s): The one I always go to on that is the guy that remember that book that the guy cut his arm off to get up. Remember his Brett (43m 25s): Yeah. Yes. Aaron Dave (43m 26s): Ralston. Aaron Ral. Right. He was nobody knew. Right. And that was the That’s right. What was the name of that? What was, do you remember the name of that? Brett (43m 32s): It’s a certain number of days. I wanna say it was like, like 27 days or whatever his, Dave (43m 36s): What was his name? Aaron. Brett (43m 37s): Aaron Ralston? Yeah. Dave (43m 39s): Aaron Ralston. Brett (43m 39s): Yeah. He’s a climber. He is a professional climber. And that was in Colorado that, that Dave (43m 44s): Happened. Oh it was, Brett (43m 45s): Yeah. He was pinned and he was pinned for so long. His arm was basically crushed. Anyway, he cut his arm off with a leatherman. Dave (43m 51s): Yeah. 127 hours, Brett (43m 53s): 127 hours. That’s what Dave (43m 54s): It was. Yeah. And, and so what is that? So you said the average 98% is, is within three days, which is 72 hours. So he went a little bit longer. Brett (44m 1s): He went a little bit longer than the, than the average. But why did he go a little bit longer? Well he was at the bottom of a rock canyon and he didn’t tell anybody. Yeah. And you know, everybody had to notice that he was gone before they started the rescue to go, you know, look at it, Dave (44m 17s): Step into the world where the river whispers and the fishing is nothing short of legendary. 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Brett (45m 19s): That’s a good question. Potentially he thought that if he didn’t cut his arm off, that he was gonna be stuck there because nobody would ever find him, find him. So on the signaling side of that, you know, bottom of a box canyon, really difficult. It’s an open question. So would he have been able to last longer with my kit? Unquestionably, whether he would’ve actually had to cut his arm off or not? That’s a tough one. Yeah. Dave (45m 44s): Right, right. Because like you said, the food you don’t really need for 127 hours water, I guess. Well, let’s talk about that. So, well first, before we talk about water, I wanna get into that. Let’s talk about how to signal the plane, because you mentioned how you can actually point, so the airline pilot actually gets the flash. Brett (45m 60s): Exactly. So what you end up with, there’s, and you know, I, it’s hard to show on, but you know, If you get an improvised signal, I dunno If you can see my hands or not, that you go in there. So you actually can use your fingers like a gun site, and you can, you could point the reflection of a mirror through that. But what works even better than that is they’re mirrors that are designed to flash aircraft. So the military uses them all the time. That’s why I’m familiar. I was a military life sport Dave (46m 28s): Guy. Oh Brett (46m 28s): Yeah. So there’s a little fiberglass mesh that’s a, that you can see in a little, there’s an aiming circle on the inside that’s basically, it punches right through the mirror itself. And on that fiberglass mesh, there are all these little microscopic glass beads that are oriented in just the right way. That refract part of the, the light source that you’re reflecting, IE the sun. And when you look through that little clear aiming window, you can see a glowing dot. And that glowing.is basically the reflection where it’s going. So when you look through the site, you put the little glowing dot on whatever you want to get the flash. So if an airline pilot is flying by you, you literally put that on the airplane and you just wiggle the, the mirror back and forth. Brett (47m 10s): And they will get that flash from the ground. And I, my background in aviation, If you see something that looks like the sun from the ground and it keeps flashing you, it’s really hard to ignore. Dave (47m 23s): Yeah. So basically, so this device isn’t just a mirror, like Right, right. This is a, and this is on your side, I think I’m, it’s, yeah. It’s called just the signal mirror glass. Brett (47m 32s): It is, it’s from the original company that made them, was called Vector one. They’re glass signal mirrors and they’re, it’s a military specification or mill spec glass signaling mirror. Coghlan’s actually bought Vector one when the, when the founder of that company passed away. Oh yeah. So a coghlan’s glass signaling mirror and you, I mean, you can get these things online, you can get ’em from me, I sell ’em. And then there is actually a plastic version that’s called a rescue flash company called SOL Sells those. Dave (48m 5s): Oh yeah. SOL sure. Brett (48m 5s): Survive outdoors longer. Right? Dave (48m 8s): That’s right. S right, that’s well, okay. And so that’s the mirror. So the cool thing about this mirror is that you can actually, you know, it’s not just a, a regular mirror flashing things. You could pinpoint this thing. So it goes to the PI by zooming in, like you said. Brett (48m 19s): And so anecdotally, I mean, you’re talking as far as long as they’re visible in the horizon. So something that, you know, 15, 20,000 feet, you could signal them, you know, 30, 40 miles away potentially from the sun. And they, you know, it happens all the time in the military context. You know, there are stories about, you know, signals at 50, 60 miles. That might be a bit of a stretch. But again, 20, 20, 30 miles is definitely within realm. And that’s to be able to reach out in the middle of the day, 20 to 30 miles really does make you stand out. And that’s, that’s Dave (48m 49s): Okay. And where could be, I know on your website you have some DVD, is there a place where somebody can watch you signaling or seeing this demonstrated? Or what would you recommend to follow up to kind of take more that, to learn how to do this? Brett (49m 1s): I do have some literature on there. I’ve got a Survival Basics blog. I do sell a video, but it’s a little bit like watching paint drive. Okay. It’s an older colleague of mine that actually does that. So, you know, we do sell, it’s a little, at this point, it used to be A DVD, now it’s a USB drive, If you were interested in that, that is something that I, I should probably pursue now that you’re even thinking about it. Yeah. Most of the time I demonstrate. Dave (49m 25s): You demonstrate. Yeah. Because you’re where people can find you as at your show. Now, talk about that real quick. Let’s take a, on what you do, because you go around to shows. Are you covering mostly the Northwest or are you going around the world? The country, Brett (49m 36s): I do go all over the world. I do air crew survival training, and then I do people survival training, obviously, that are just outdoor users, that sort of thing. So you and I connected at the Sportsman show. Yeah. In, in Portland, Oregon, I believe. Yeah. And so as you go in there, that’s, that’s a kind of a public safety aspect. So Toyota sponsors me to come in and give talks to people, and I demonstrate and show how a lot of this stuff works because there is so much myth and misconception out there. But I spend a lot of time working with search and rescue teams. I train them on how to search. So what I’m trying to do is pass as much information to the public. You know, your listeners in particular are a good example of that, of a demographic that could potentially need search and rescue services. Brett (50m 18s): And so, hey, how do you be a good customer for search and rescue? And then on the, on the search and rescue side, hey, how do we effectively look for people? What do lost people do? What’s their behavior? How do you manage an, an operation like that? Dave (50m 28s): Yeah, gotcha. Okay, cool. This is awesome. So, so we’ve got the signal mirror, we’ve got some of that. So really we’re still in the, the, the three things. We’re Brett (50m 35s): Still in the big three. The one other thing I would add in addition to the signal mirror is a whistle, a really loud whistle. And the reason is because I don’t know If you’ve ever been to a rock concert or not, but if you’re yelling and screaming at the top of your lungs, I’ll give you maybe 10, 12 minutes of that. And I mean, really making as much noise with your voice as is humanly possible. Your vocal cords just don’t last. But you can, you can blow on a whistle all day for a week. And it’s, it doesn’t take a lot of effort. And what you want is somebody, ’cause that your whistle blast can carry literally for a mile or two. And again, it just makes you, your footprint larger so that anybody who comes within that zone can actually see you or hear you or figure out that you’re there and need some help. Dave (51m 16s): Right. So whistle’s good. We mentioned water. So you’re out there. How do you, what do you tell people about water? Do they need to be drinking water? Brett (51m 24s): So water disinfection and storage. So what I have is a six category list. So the big three, that’s the minimum. That’s what I always focus on. So If you got nothing else, shelter, fire signaling, those are the three that you, that you definitely want to concentrate on. The next three, water disinfection and storage, survival medicine, and then tools. And so those are the next three. So a survival kit actually has six component groups. And this is literally where I start. So I’ll do survival kits that you’re gonna put in a vehicle, for example, or I’ll do ’em for a sheriff’s department or whatever. So getting back to what you’re talking Yeah. Water disinfection storage. So is water a big deal? It can be. So 72 hours, you know, the old scouting rule of threes, you know, they say you can go three days without water. Brett (52m 7s): It’s really variable depending on how hydrated you are when you start, what your activity level is and the environment. So I mean, if I have you sit in a La-Z-Boy chair in your living room and don’t move, you know, you could go much longer than three days probably without water it wouldn’t be pleasant. But if I, if we go down to Death Valley on the 4th of July at noon and we do a CrossFit workout, we’re gonna need water way faster than three days. And so that’s the, a little bit of variability there. What you end up with in, in water, it’s a bit of snake oil. You kind of need to know what you’re filtering and what the situation is. So in North America we’ve got pretty good hygiene stuff and sanitation. Brett (52m 51s): As far as the water’s concerned, the primary threat is Cryptosporidium and Giardia, which are protozoa that are from animals, you know, pooping and peeing in the water. And the interesting thing about that is those pathogens are not necessarily deadly. They just make you miserable. I don’t know If you’ve ever had Giardia or not. Yeah, Dave (53m 13s): I’m not sure. It’s Brett (53m 14s): Not very much fun. Really, really bad gas pains and stomach cramping and, and and diarrhea even. So obviously we wanna avoid that. So the good news about Cryptosporidium and Giardia is they’re relatively big on the microbial scale, so they’re relatively easy to filter out. So there are carbon filters that you can get. Yeah, Dave (53m 38s): Like the life straw. Brett (53m 39s): Yeah. Sawyer life straw. That’s a good example. Yeah. So really, really effective. So what you’re doing, I mean, you think like a Brita filter, you know, you have to make the chlorine taste go outta your water, you know, at home or something like that. It’s a very similar technology that goes through there. So it’s still a screen and the microbes are kind of like, you know, the basketballs of the microbial world. So they’re easy to filter out. So I would highly recommend doing that, especially if you’re gonna be drinking out of a stream or a creek or something like that. Dave (54m 4s): Yeah. So have one of those little straws or something like that in there. Yeah. Brett (54m 7s): The other option is chemical disinfection. Dave (54m 10s): Yeah, like water tablets. Brett (54m 11s): Yeah, water tablets. So the old school solution was iodine, like a, a company called Potable aqua. They had you put iodine tells. And the irony of this, and I mean I was a, I was in scouting when I was a kid too, and we put this potable aqua iodine tablets in, and they had these little pills that you put on the after the iodine to make it taste better, like the little lemon drops. And iodine is not effective in controlling protozoa. So the part of their lifecycle is a little cyst and the the cell wall is so thick that the iodine can’t get through it. So what you’re doing is, is the iodine was killing bacteria and viruses for sure. And, and is effective at doing that. You need a more powerful chemical. Brett (54m 52s): And what you’ll find is chlorine dioxide is kind of the chemical of choice. There are other things that are out there. Be very wary of buying old water disinfection materials at a swap meet or something like that. Just go in. Chlorine dioxide has about a five year shelf life. Each tablet, the way that they’re designed is for a liter of water. So, you know, half a pot bottle, big, big pot bottle bottles, kinda what, how much water you can disinfect. The big mistake that people make when they’re disinfecting water chemically is they don’t give it enough time to actually work. It takes at room temperature, so say 70 degrees Fahrenheit, it takes 30 minutes for those chemicals to kill all the critters in the water. Brett (55m 33s): So If you just put the, the tablets in the water, shake it up and drink it, it just makes the water taste bad. It doesn’t really do any good for you at freezing temperatures or right before the water goes solid into ice. It takes four hours of contact time to disinfect the water. So there’s a little bit of a caveat with that. Very, very dense, very, very effective for small amounts of water. In fact, for a micro kit that you could carry in a pocket and you’re worried, you know, about three or four days, you know, to disinfect water, chlorine dioxide tablets would be a very effective solution. ’cause a, a life straw even takes up more room and, and weighs a little bit from a density standpoint. Dave (56m 10s): So that’s it. So, and I see on your website you have micro Pure. Yeah. Are those tablets, Brett (56m 14s): Haines, micro, pure one. Yep. That’s probably the most popular version that’s out there. The most easily available. Dave (56m 19s): Yeah. And you got 20 tablets. So literally, I mean like one per bottle, I mean, mean you could probably just throw in five tablets and probably be good. Totally. Brett (56m 27s): That’s exactly what I’m saying. Now the other thing on the water side, you need something to put your water in. So you know, If you, you know, let people will carry a, you know, like a, a Yeti bottle or a hydro flask or something. ’cause they work great, but those are like thermos. So I’ve got another option, another brand, you know, a clean canteen, what you use for those, because they can actually, you can use ’em to heat water up. So another disinfection technique for water If you run out of the tablets is to boil it. So that’s the one that you can do long term, but it presupposes that you have at least something that you can heat the water up in. Right. So, you know, when you’re really looking at a small low impact weight and space, you know, taking a collapsible platypus water bag is not a bad example as well. Brett (57m 15s): ’cause when it’s empty, it doesn’t take up any room at all and it weighs almost nothing. But you can actually put a liter of water into it Dave (57m 21s): And you could pump into it. Yeah, I see your, yeah, you can get a, bring a filter pump too, so you could pump into your Exactly. Platypus. So there you go. Okay. And that’s awesome. I mean the, the tablets, so, and you’re saying when you put those tablets in, you need to let it sit in there for hours before you can drink the water? Brett (57m 35s): At least 30 minutes. Dave (57m 36s): Oh, at least 30 minutes. Okay. Brett (57m 37s): At least 30 minutes. So room temperature water is 30 minutes, freezing water is four hours. So it’s a spectrum from those two, depending on what the temperature of the water is. So if you’re up in Alaska and it’s like glacier fed stream, it’s gonna be longer than 30 minutes. Oh, okay. As you go out there, the thing about water filters, you know the answer’s money. Now ask your question. You can get a reverse osmosis filter pump that you know they use in life rafts and that’ll desalinate the water. Oh wow. I mean, the screen on that is so fine that a molecule of salt will not fit through the screen. But a but H2O, a single molecule of water goes through. So that purifies the water. Now all the way back to your little Sawyer life straw, what I’m trying to disinfect is important because, okay, so Cryptosporidium and Giardia, those protozoa that I mentioned, they’re relatively large and easy. Brett (58m 26s): But if I, let’s say we have an earthquake, a 9.0 earthquake on the I five corridor in the Pacific Northwest, or you’re south of Seattle or something like that. Okay. We’re the sewer line breaks and now we get e coli in the water supply. So what happens every once in a while, you know, when they’re doing construction or something, you get a notice from the water company and they’re like, Hey, boil your water for the next couple days. Right. Well what they’re telling you is there’s, there’s bacteria in there. Well, a soiler life straw will not factor the bacteria out. They’re too small, they get through the screen. So what you’re trying to do, if I go to Sub-Saharan Africa and I’m worried about Ebola virus or something like that, right. Viruses are orders of magnitude smaller than bacteria. Bacteria are orders of magnitude smaller than protozoa. Brett (59m 7s): So it takes successively thinner and thinner filters to get the small, when I say thinner, I mean smaller pore size filters. So when you go out there, and this is why I said snake oil at the very beginning, every water filter salesman is gonna tell you his is the very best. So you beware of weasel words, you know, things like Dave (59m 27s): Yeah. Good for everything. Brett (59m 29s): Well, nominal is what you’re look is, you know, you, when somebody says what’s the nominal filtration size as opposed to absolute. So IE what is the, what is the biggest thing that’s possible to get through this screen? And that’s where you go in there. So it, there are good filters out there and there are filters that will filter viruses and that sort of thing. They, they’re just a lot more expensive. So a life straw is gonna cost you, you know, you’re talking 20 bucks, you know, you get one of the filters, viruses, you’re gonna spend three or 400. Dave (59m 58s): Right. Right, right. Gotcha. So for what we’re talking about, which is, you know, maybe in, you know, the us in our example, again, somebody’s in the stream, you know, that might be good enough. The, the lifestyle or the tablets sort thing. Brett (1h 0m 10s): Exactly. Right. Exactly. Right. Now one other, one other caveat, and then we can move on away from water. If you have no filtration or disinfection capability, drink the water. Dave (1h 0m 19s): I was gonna ask you about that because we had, we had Yvonne Ard on, I believe it, he, he said this, you know, from Patagonia, the founder. Yep. And he said on that podcast like, Hey, I’ve been drinking the water straight from the stream for my whole life. Yep. And what is going on with that? Is that because he’s get his body’s used to it or what? Well, Brett (1h 0m 35s): Yes, his body is used to it, number one. And number two, there’s a lot of water volume that doesn’t have protozoa in it. And I told you the ineffectiveness of iodine and killing. Yeah. Protozoa. I drank water as a scout. I, we were up in the, we did 50 mile hikes and got the hiking merit badge and all that kind of stuff. And we were drinking outta streams all the time and think just fat, dumb, and happy putting these little tablets in the water. That wasn’t protecting us at all. And so, and you know, some of us got sick, but it was usually attributed to not doing your dishes well enough or, you know, you know, some kind of a, of an issue like that. But we all survived it. And so what you end up with is some discomfort and you’ve had a an incidence of it. Brett (1h 1m 17s): Can it be serious? It totally can. So you, it it’s prophylactic, but we can cure sick. We cannot cure dead from dehydration. Yeah. So, right. You know, being overly scared. It’s, it’s an evaluation. Right. What’s gonna kill me if I need water and I have a water source, it’s absolutely silly not to drink the water in that context. Dave (1h 1m 37s): Yeah, that’s a great point. That’s a great point. Cool. So that’s a little on water. And again, all of this we can follow up with you on your, on your site. You’ve got the survival blog as well, which I’m sure goes into some of this. So, so, and I’m looking at now what’s, yeah, this is cool. I’m at your blog now. What’s wrong with the space blanket? You got tools and supply. So cool. This is gonna be a good resource I think for people that want to move further. But let’s get the last, you, you mentioned six, so let’s go to the last number five. Yeah, Brett (1h 2m 0s): The last two. Yeah. So the next one, this one’s pretty straightforward. It’s survival medicine. So when I say survival medicine, first aid is not what I’m talking about. So first aid is a totally different subject. And am I advocating you carry a first aid kit? I absolutely I am. And it should be commensurate with whatever training level you’ve received. But you should get some, number one, it should be focused on wilderness. Especially if you’re gonna go out in the woods. And that means where you, you may be outside of being able to call 9 1 1 or what do you do If you come upon somebody in your party or you yourself are injured, you are definitive care at that point. So that’s where wilderness medicine comes in. But the survival medicine piece on the survival kit, there’s two aspects of this. Brett (1h 2m 41s): Number one is kind of a bandaid booboo kit. So If you, something that, you know, If you, If you stick a fish hook in your thumb and you know, you, you get it out and everything else, but you don’t wanna cancel your trip because of that. So there’s some basic stuff that I, that you put in there. So this is like a neosporin and a good set of bandages or maybe some medical tape that will actually stick so that you can protect your hands. So that a little annoying injury like that doesn’t become a life threatening injury. That’s the first aspect. So that’s where you get your bandaids, generic antibacterial soap and some antibacterial ointment, some just basic bandaid and bandaging from varying sizes, et cetera. Brett (1h 3m 25s): You do have to cycle those out every couple years. ’cause the adhesive on those things will go bad. The other is any personal medications. So let’s say you’re on blood pressure meds or you’re a diabetic or you have an, an allergy to bees or through something like that. What we recommend in a survival kit is a 10 day supply. So you, you know, you’re just, your medication, whatever, it’s, you know, if you’ve got beta blockers, ’cause you’ve got, you know, AFib or something like that. I mean this, as you get into, you know, older demographics, a lot of them have a regimen of medicines and that sort of a thing. So that just takes that off the table as something that is, is gonna sneak up on you. And it can be extremely serious and it can be more of an inconvenience. Brett (1h 4m 7s): But like I said, a 10 day supply of the medications that you’re on is what we recommend. Yeah. Dave (1h 4m 12s): 10 day. Okay. So basically medicine is just literally, that’s the medications you need just to, to survive again, to keep you from dying. That’s kind of the focus of that for the most part. And Brett (1h 4m 21s): It is now the, the basic comfort stuff. So generic pain relievers, so your ibuprofen, If you twist your ankle, you know, and anti-inflammatory like ibuprofen obviously don’t do that. If you have medications that that conflict with, you know, NSAIDs and stuff like that. But If you go in and then there’s also, you know, baby aspirin for example. If you have, you know, as a, as a potential treatment for somebody in your, you know, somebody has a heart attack or, or something like that. These are all little things that you could add to a kit that are kind of over the counter medications that are effective Benadryl as a generic anaphylactic. So If you have an aller allergic reaction to something you’re not even aware of, that can be helpful. Imodium or Peptizole tablets. Brett (1h 5m 2s): Right. So these are things that make you feel a little bit better. They make something that could be relatively miserable, a little bit more tolerable. Because when all of is, this is said and done. And even when we talk about food, you know, I, we, we mentioned that food is a myth that you need it, it is a powerful psychological benefit to have something to eat or to chew on or to suck on or something. So when somebody says, should I put food in my survival kit? They usually get a lecture that lasts an hour long first. And then I say absolutely yes, put some food in it. Yeah. Dave (1h 5m 32s): Right. Brett (1h 5m 33s): Because it makes you feel better, right? Yeah. So you put a little, you know, that’s the, that’s the key because if your psychological state goes up, then your, your physical reaction to the harsh conditions and everything else gets better. Dave (1h 5m 46s): Okay. So in food could be what, like a cliff bar or Right, like anything Totally Brett (1h 5m 50s): A cliff bar or a, a protein bar. Even like the little power snacks that you can get, you know, If you bunk on the trail or something like that. You know, any of that kind of stuff. Something that keeps, well, depending on the, how long it’s been, you know, you, you replenish it before you go out on the trip, you put something decent in there. Even some hard candy is beneficial in that regard. So again, it makes you feel better. I’m hungry, I’m bored and I’m scared or kind of synonymous with gimme something to eat and I’ll feel better. Yeah. Gotcha. Dave (1h 6m 16s): God, that’s perfect. Well I think the last one is gonna be good because is is it tools? Is that the last tools? Brett (1h 6m 21s): That’s exactly it. Dave (1h 6m 22s): Yep. So we all love tools, right? We all love a pocket knife. Brett (1h 6m 25s): Absolutely. So a knife is a good, a good survival tool. I would say a solid shank knife, that’s what I put in. And the reason is because a knife with a hinge in it, the hinge is the weak point on the knife. Even if it’s a high quality one. And we start batoning IE pounding on a knife with a big stick or a hammer, you’ll break the hinge. So another one is a saw of some sort. So it’s, these are force multipliers when you’re dealing with, with creating shelter, with creating fire, with fueling the fire and that sort of a thing. Signaling all of that is just, you have the ability to kind of expand out into the environment a little bit so you’re not just, you know, stuck with breaking sticks that you can do with your, with your hands and things like that. Brett (1h 7m 8s): So a solid shank knife, try to avoid one that’s got spikes, you know, k bar piece spikes on the back of the handle or a saw blade or anything like that. Because when you baton, which is literally hit the back of that knife with a larger piece of wood or something like that, you’ll chew through that hammer very quickly if it’s got a blade on the back of it. Gotcha. So anyway, that’s a backup. By the way, the knife is a good backup for the feral rod. ’cause it usually takes, you know, carbon steel is the best thing to make sparks with it. Oh, Dave (1h 7m 38s): So you could use that. Yep. Brett (1h 7m 39s): Saw knife and then your a leatherman, like a, not leatherman in particular a multi, let’s say multi-tool, right? So there’s a lot of different brands. It doesn’t have to be leatherman, but for repair, for going in and and monkeying with stuff for taking apart or, or putting a something together, using the resources, improvising a Phillips head screwdriver or improvising a set of pliers is just not practical. You either have ’em or you don’t. Yeah. Dave (1h 8m 8s): What might you use a, a pair of pliers on out there for? Brett (1h 8m 12s): Well, so think about this. You know, depending upon what your equipment is, right? So everything from, let’s say you, you break your, you know, you damage your rod and reel when you drop or something like that. You know, there’s some, there’s potentials for, you know, I’m, I’m thinking more in context. Like a, one of the examples that I have, I was doing mountaineering and I was skinning up a slope that was covered on in snow and my, my binding broke. And so I used the pliers to disassemble the bindings. Right? I didn’t have a wrench. And so what you ended up with is it, like I said, it’s just that Dave (1h 8m 47s): Leverage. You never know right? You never know. You Brett (1h 8m 49s): Don’t know. And it’s, it’s amazing what you can do from an improvisational standpoint when you have some basic tools that help you with that Dave (1h 8m 56s): Stuff. Yeah, yeah. There’s all sorts of stuff on there, I’m sure. And, and the one that I have, I’ve had a few, but like, you know, the leatherman wave, you, you know what I mean? It doesn’t matter what multi do do they Brett (1h 9m 4s): All, it doesn’t take a look at the tools. They’re all useful. I mean, people are like, oh, what do I need a, a pair of scissors for? Well you’d be surprised, right. You know, so cutting a plastic bag, for example, the face hole in a plastic bag, a set of scissors makes that process really easy. A nail file, If you tear a fingernail, that can be a pain in the tush to deal with, right? Yeah. And you don’t want to just bite it off. ’cause then, you know, you, you get down in it starts to hurt. Right? So again, there’s just all these little things that could potentially let alone, you know, sharpening hooks or, or whatever the case might be. Yeah. You’re, that you’re dealing with some of this stuff, you know, an all or a punch is another one that’s on there. Some of them will have a little Phillips head screwdriver head on them. There’s variations. Brett (1h 9m 45s): Take a look at what the tools are and say, well when would I use this? Okay, maybe I don’t need the magnifying glass, but if I’m reading little tiny instructions on another piece of equipment, that magnifying glass is really handy. Dave (1h 9m 57s): That’s a good point. Yeah. Especially if you’re older. Like, like me, you know, the glasses If you Brett (1h 10m 1s): Right. My eyes stuck. Dave (1h 10m 2s): Yeah. If you lose your glasses or you don’t have ’em, it’s Brett (1h 10m 4s): Like, now what do I do? Dave (1h 10m 6s): Good. So that’s tools and, and pretty much like you said, everything, they could look at all the tools on your site. Do you have probably a place that they could look at some of the other ones? Brett (1h 10m 13s): I do. So, and the tools kind of vary back and forth. So there are some electronics things, you know, a compass, people who know how to use a compass, guess what, they don’t get lost. Right? Yeah. Right. A compass is a good thing. It’s a, it’s kind of a, it’s a vanishing skill and that, you know, your cell phone is a fantastic signaling device by the way. Right. It’s not a good compass. Even If you download an app that says it’s a Compass app. Dave (1h 10m 36s): Yeah. So even OnX, if you’ve got OnX or trout routes, right? It’s not, those aren’t perfect. They Brett (1h 10m 40s): Are not perfect. So having something that will actually wait, ’cause they’re dependent on That work coverage and they’re also now A GPS is another tool. Now as technology keeps getting better, there are some phones and apps that have decent GPS and don’t need network connectivity. So it is possible to have that. But that goes in the tools category. Anything electronic, you know, when you start talking about signaling, you know, having a light source that you can use to flash at an airplane or to flash at rescuers, but then also so you can see what you’re doing at night are things to add. So a light is kind of a tool, but it’s also a signal. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so If you get multiple uses from these different items, it’s just more incentive that that’s a good item to carry. Brett (1h 11m 22s): With that being said, try to avoid all in one survival tools. And the reason I say that is because If you lose and all in one survival tool, you just lost all your survival. Dave (1h 11m 33s): Right? Yeah. Don, no, you get it. What, what’s the word for it? You, you wanna have multiple layers, right? You don’t, yeah. Brett (1h 11m 38s): Yes, exactly. Right. So fallbacks, you know, it’s alternates. Yes, exactly right. Dave (1h 11m 43s): Okay, we’re gonna take it outta here pretty quick. We have a segment we call our Instagram story segment. And this is where we’re gonna get a story out of you on maybe some survival situations that, you know, where you applied some of this. But today this is presented by four wheel campers. So four wheel campers is with a camper. We’re gonna be taking up to Alaska. We mentioned this trip. We’re gonna be traveling up there all the way. And, and you never know what could happen along the way. Right. We might break down, you know, who knows, right? But we’re gonna, we’re gonna have your gear. That’s the point is on this trip, I’m gonna make sure to get all this stuff. So we’ve got this in the truck, but let’s go to that first because you know, on the stories part of it, first shout out to four wheel campers. But do you have something that would maybe a, a story out there that we can remember what we’re talking about here? Brett (1h 12m 25s): You know, there are a couple, I’ve got a couple of stories where what you end up with is, is not necessarily a, an example where everything gets applied. So most of my stories are, it’s a one-off, like there’s one investigation terms, we call that the accident chain, right? There are all these links that come together in the accident chain. And if any one of those links get broken, the accident doesn’t happen or the situation doesn’t occur. And that’s kind of where, where you come into these, these kind of situations. So, so what, let the first example, so, so this example of this kind of story, so I’m a a deer hunter, right? Yeah. So Pacific Northwest, Washington state, I am hunting for mule deers in the area where we are. Brett (1h 13m 11s): It happened to be foggy that morning. So coming down the hillside, it was foggy enough that I couldn’t see the surrounding area. So I went up the hill in the first part of the morning and then when I was not successful, was turning around and trying to come back down to the road where I parked my truck earlier and I went down, I was on a ridge line. So I thought, I’m just gonna walk this ridge line and I’m walking the ridge line and all of a sudden I get to the bottom of the hill and there’s no, not only is there no truck, there’s no road. Oh wow. Right. But it’s foggy. I mean, I can only see maybe 10 yards. I mean, that’s probably the distance. Right? Well, so that’s the first step where you’re like, okay, yeah, Dave (1h 13m 53s): Like stop that. I always get to that step where I’m like, okay, what is the first thing you do? Do you backtrack? Do you sit down? What do you do? Brett (1h 14m 1s): So the Air Force had a little acronym for me that I, it works great. It’s called Stop think, observe plan. STOP. So stop is absolutely what you do. So the the s the S in stop is literally stop moving. When you’re outta control, you feel uncomfortable, whatever the case is, it is literally a, it feels better because you have control over your movement. Dave (1h 14m 23s): Right? You’re not potentially getting worse off than you were. Brett (1h 14m 25s): You’re right. And so I’m just, I’m gonna drive some of this nervous energy into my feet and I can dispel it that way and it feels good ’cause I’m doing something not necessarily the best solution in every case because you could potentially make it worse. So sit down, take a drink of water, think a little bit about what was going on. ’cause you know, the first thing that comes into your mind in a situation like that is, I just went through the twilight zone and I’m now back in time when there’s not a road there. And it’s like, you know, that’s what comes to mind. Yeah. It’s like, ’cause I couldn’t possibly have taken a wrong turn. Right? Yeah. So that’s where you start to rationalize a little bit and you say, okay, what is it that’s going, okay, no, this is not some science fiction movie that I’m a part of. Now I, I came down the wrong ridge line, so how do I fix this? Brett (1h 15m 9s): And this is where it’s the point of convenience, which is like, well I can start walking along the bottom of the hill. I think that that’s where, that’s where people get into trouble. Yeah. Because the real solution is to go back up the hill, go Dave (1h 15m 21s): Back, follow your steps If you can back yes, Brett (1h 15m 24s): Go right back up to where you know where you were. And then pay attention a little more specifically so that you don’t take the wrong finger ridge. And that’s exactly what I did. So I hiked back up the hill and it took me a whole extra hour to hike up the hill, go back to where I was, and then I went down the right and guess what was at the bottom of the hill? Yeah. Your truck. My truck. And so yeah, get getting lost in the fog is my example. Now where could that have gone If you didn’t handle it correctly? All of a sudden now I’m in some valley or drainage that I’m not familiar with and now I’m walking and I start looking and, and instead of using that powerful survival tool between your ears, you turn around and you’re just, you’re kind of following your nose. And that’s a good way to get in trouble. Dave (1h 16m 4s): Yeah. Have you seen a lot of those, you know, the search and rescue, have you been a part of those things where you’re searching for people? Brett (1h 16m 11s): Oh my god, yes. Absolutely. And that’s exa so that’s how it starts. So I’ve got a, I have a presentation that I gave, it’s called I was just, and then.dot dot. Oh right. That’s how it starts. I was just, and now you fill in the blanks. Yeah. Dave (1h 16m 23s): I was just, I was just fishing out my back door sort of. Brett (1h 16m 27s): Yeah. I was just gonna run over there real quick. I was just gonna go behind this, this rock for some privacy so I could go to the bathroom. You know, I was just gonna run back up the trail to the campsite to get my camera ’cause I forgot it. Hey you guys keep on I’ll, I’ll meet you at the lake. Oh right, right, right. And then that person then starts the week long search and rescue mission. Dave (1h 16m 46s): Right. That’s it. So on that stop mode, was that a acronym? STOP. What’s it stand for? Brett (1h 16m 51s): STOP. Yes. Stop. Think, observe plan. So what you’re doing is you’re stopping, you’d stop moving. So now you’re, you gather your wits, take a drink of water. If you’re scared a drink of water, we’ll kinda wash that coughy fear, taste outta your mouth, get rid of the anxiety a little bit. Think about the situation, okay, what is it that actually is going on here? Observe the environment, figure out what it is that you’re seeing. I know where I am, I don’t know where I am. And then put together a plan to fix the situation. Dave (1h 17m 21s): That’s good. Okay. So we’ll put down, hopefully we’ll have maybe on our Instagram we’ll have a little story of this that we can put down. Maybe get some photos, some stuff. Well we’re definitely, and I Brett (1h 17m 28s): Was trying to come up with a fishing one. You know, my dad and I, we actually had, we were trying to follow a compass bearing across the straits. We were fishing up in British Columbia. Oh wow. So on the Sunshine Coast up on the northern, up towards Port Hardy. So we’re in the Canadian San Juans in there. And from where we were staying, we took a compass shot out to where it was. ’cause in the morning it’s foggy. So it’s fogging fog story. Right. Well there’s, but there’s shipping out in this, this lane that we’re trying to get across. What we didn’t remember was that there’s current in the ocean, right? Hmm. So we take our little compass bearing out in the front and this is my 12-year-old self. And I’m like, oh, yep, that’s the direction, you know, and I’m giving my dad back and forth. Well we’re going and we’re going and we’re going, we missed the island completely because we drifted to the south with the current. Brett (1h 18m 16s): And when we figured that out, we spent the whole rest of the morning trying to figure out where the hell we were to get back. And it took the fog lifting for us actually to get back to safety, so to speak. So again, it’s this a variation on the same thing, but you know, since your listeners are fishermen, Dave (1h 18m 29s): So Yeah, that’s right. Well I love the, the compass I think is interesting because I feel like the compass is very important, especially If you know how to use it. Yes. But you know, like for me, for example, I’ve never, you know, I’ve had compasses, but I just, you know, again, I do the thing you probably shouldn’t do my phone I have out there and you know, it, it worked great for me forever. I haven’t had that one situation yet. But, but how would you recommend on the Compass is there, is there a class that people would take? Do you think it’s an important thing? If somebody’s listening right now, do you think they should learn how to use a compass? Oh Brett (1h 18m 57s): Absolutely. I think they should buy a compass and I should learn how to use it. That’s just one of those, it’s an emergency gear. It never needs batteries. It always works. As long as the earth is spinning, you will have a compass. Dave (1h 19m 8s): Where should they go? Is this something where you just pop up 10 minute YouTube video and or where would you send people? Brett (1h 19m 13s): Yeah, there are YouTube videos out there. There are books written on the subject. It is not intuitively obvious. Dave (1h 19m 18s): It’s kind of confusing, right? Because you gotta turn this thing and then there’s some compasses probably that aren’t very good too. Right. Well, well I think again, the safety, going back to this, the blanket thing I think is so perfect because everybody’s got one, the kits are on Amazon, but like, they also sometimes have these compasses that are kind of flimsy and probably, are those really work? Brett (1h 19m 36s): No, my joke for that when I’m in the class is I pull one of these out and I say, this compass is very inexpensive and it always points to the country where it was manufactured. Right. Not to the North Pole. Dave (1h 19m 49s): Right. Brett (1h 19m 50s): So yeah, that’s, that’s a joke. Dave (1h 19m 52s): How does that happen to this data? So the blankets, these compasses, how does that get, because those are, there’s millions of those things out there and they’re not all Chinese made, right? I mean, no, how is that possible? Because that seems like that’s a dangerous thing to have out there. Brett (1h 20m 4s): I would agree completely. And you know, welcome to my world is, is what I would say. But yeah, that what, what you get is well-intentioned, uninformed people. And so what they get is, and you know who the worst is? I, and I’m not disparaging this group because they’re, they’re great, but it’s, it’s your hometown scout leaders for example. Dave (1h 20m 22s): Oh really? Like the scout, like the boy scouts. Brett (1h 20m 24s): Yeah. And not across the board, this is not a universal term, but I’m, you’re giving you an example of how this could go. Somebody doesn’t really understand. They think they do and they pass on bad information or the other really primary source. So that’s part of it. And now, you know, the university of YouTube is fantastic. I mean here we are on a podcast. I know. But when you talk about looking at popular media is, you know, real survival is not necessarily sexy or exciting when it’s done appropriately. And so what you get is somebody who’s making a a 20 minute segment for use for 30 minutes on a, on a network and they’re literally saying, we need more jeopardy. Brett (1h 21m 7s): We need something, you know, we, we’ve got the two minute culture, right? We’ve got this. Yeah. It has to be funny or exciting or jaw dropping or gets you within two minutes or we’re gonna click on something else. God. And that I think is part of the problem as well. And so what you get then because of that is the information that’s out there, the individual points that are appropriate get lost in the weeds. Dave (1h 21m 31s): Yep. That’s it. No, I love, that’s one of the things I love the podcast because we’ve been on here for over an hour now and we’re just, and it’s great because people, you know, there’s some people that are listening right now still in, in with us. And it’s beautiful because we don’t have to have these short little social media like Yeah, like you’re saying the junk, you know, the junk out there. We’re really getting, trying to get down to our essence as much we can in an hour or so. Right. How can we go? And I feel like, I feel like we’ve done good because I go back to like you, I think you simplify things. You know, you got three things, there’s three things right now we can get that we could throw in our pocket and we can take with us everywhere. There’s, you know, the six things that If you wanna make something bigger and, and I wanna just point people as we get outta here to your website because you have a couple of products, what would you recommend if somebody wanted to get one of these packages? Dave (1h 22m 14s): ’cause you have some different levels, what do you tell them? Yeah, Brett (1h 22m 16s): I do. So we’ve got three different levels. So I have a starter kit, we call it an outdoor safe survival kit. And that is a shelter, fire and signaling kit. It comes in a little cordura, which is a heavy nylon pouch with a zipper up on the top of it. It literally has a feral rod. It’s got two of those little waterproof match containers for cotton and Vaseline. It has an immediate action shelter bag in it. It has a signaling mirror and a whistle and a little piece of flagging tape actually that you could tie up in a tree. You know, so the, the, from a signaling perspective, you know, color contrast size movement, it sticks out and it does all of those things. So it, it’s an attention grabber for either for you or for someone else. Brett (1h 22m 58s): So that’s the starting kit. We have another, which is, we call it the 98.6 kit. And that one has all six of the categories. So it’s got shelter, fire signaling, water disinfection and storage survival medicine and tools that go into it. And it’s designed, we actually built that one under contract for customs and border protection. So it was a DHS product that we, and the pilots still use it by the way. We still supply it. They’re for air crew. So the idea was to put it in the leg pocket of a flight suit. So it’s, it’s about the same size as the pouch that we have on the starter kit. It comes in a little royal blue pouch that goes in there and it’s got an immediate action shelter bag. But what some of the added items in that, there are two of those MP one tablets and a small collapsible water bag that goes in there. Brett (1h 23m 45s): There’s a little LED flashlight that’s inside of it. There’s a little solid shank neck knife that goes with it. There’s 40 feet of cordage that’s in there from a sheltering perspective. And then there’s a instruction booklet. Oh, Dave (1h 23m 58s): This is the emergency survival kit? That’s correct. So this is the kinda the big thing that’s got pretty much everything. No, Brett (1h 24m 4s): No, no, no, no. This is the in between. This one’s called the, the one that I just described is called the 98.6 kit. Dave (1h 24m 8s): Oh yeah, that’s the 98.6. Yep. Yep. Brett (1h 24m 10s): Now the, the emergency survival kit is the one that’s designed for a vehicle and that’s like, that’s like four people, right? So, and that one’s gonna be, you know, it’s almost a foot across and maybe three or four inches thick. It weighs maybe seven pounds, five to seven pounds. And it’s got, it’s got enough stuff, it’s got all of those categories and you know, you could put all of those materials inside of that. Dave (1h 24m 30s): Okay, perfect. So yeah, you got these different level and I think again, the easy thing would be, right now, a good step would be for everybody to get that first kit, which is your top, your three things. Right? Brett (1h 24m 39s): Right. Now if most people also, when I talk to them, they’re like, oh, I already have a survival kit. And it’s like, okay, well let’s evaluate that. So every one of those individual items that’s in there, most people do have some decent stuff. They also have some, you know, like they’ll have a space blanket in there, right? And I’m like, okay, you should get rid of the space blanket and you should put a bag in there, right? That’s the, don’t even use my bag. Go to go to Walmart and get a garbage bag and use that. That will do you more good than the space blanket will, et cetera. So all of the individual components are available as Dave (1h 25m 10s): Well. Okay. And that’s the good thing is that, yeah, you don’t have to necessarily buy your stuff, although the way you package it and everything here is makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Brett (1h 25m 17s): Yeah. Makes it convenient. We’re trying to, you know, you can, you can spend a lot of money on survival kits and or equipment and not necessarily get any improvement. So you don’t want trinkets, but you don’t have to break the bank either. And that’s where it really comes into play. And, and the best advice in that department, I could give you whatever it is that you buy, try it out. Don’t just throw it in the trunk of your car or in your bag. Like literally play with it. And if it’s that good, I mean hell buy two, right? So, you know, beat the snot outta one and figure out how to use it and then put the other one that’s in pristine condition for when there’s an emergency. Yeah, Dave (1h 25m 50s): That’s a great point. So get it out, use it just like anything. Do the reps, you know, you gotta try stuff so when the situation happens, you’re ready to go. Brett (1h 25m 57s): Exactly right. Dave (1h 25m 58s): Cool. Well this has been great, Brett. I think we’ll kind of hold it there and send everybody out to outdoor safe.com if they wanna check more into this. And this has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate you going in deep here and we’ll, we’ll look forward to keeping in touch with you and Brett (1h 26m 11s): Absolutely, absolutely. Anytime And anybody can reach out as well at the website. Dave (1h 26m 14s): Yeah, that website, is that the best way? Just go to your website? It is, Brett (1h 26m 17s): Yeah. No, yeah, exactly. So there’s a, we have a little, you know, info at, there’s a, you know, contact us on the website, you can just drop me a note. And I, we’re a small business, so I do travel a lot and I do train a lot, but I’m, I come up for air every couple of days. So that’s, I answer all my email. Dave (1h 26m 34s): Okay, I see. And you even have a, yeah, you have a office phone too, email, office phone. So you got exactly both of those things. Okay, good. Well, and then any other questions? So we’ll direct ’em there and then yeah, until we talk again, Brett, appreciate all your time. We’ll talk to you soon. Roger Brett (1h 26m 46s): That. Stay safe. Dave (1h 26m 48s): All right, you have to, If you want to have a chance to stay safe out there, head over to outdoor safe.com and check in and maybe pick up that 98.6 pack that sounds like, I think it’s about a little over a hundred dollars and all the items are there. He talked about today, you could also just get the smaller pack, the three key items, that one as well. I’d go for EI mean, If you, If you do anything, it’s pretty easy, especially that small pack and just fit in your pocket and, and why not? It might save your life. If you haven’t yet, please subscribe to this podcast. You can do that on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or any app that you are on out there. If you haven’t heard about Wetly Swing Pro, I wanna give you a little heads up here. We are relaunching, we actually already launched Wetly Swing Pro through our founders, and now we are launching the next cohort. Dave (1h 27m 37s): And this is gonna be pretty amazing. If you’re interested in, we Swing Pro, go to wew.com/pro and If you go there, you can sign your name up and we’ll follow up with you as we launch the next cohort. And essentially we’re doing these throughout the year to provide a better, better resource, better value for those, for that group that’s going in. So If you want to get involved in this next cohort, this next group, go there right now and you can find all the great stuff about Wetly Swing Pro and, and you can get involved in that. We’re, we’re trying to keep this to like a limited number as we get into this so we can make sure that this is the best experience possible. So If you haven’t yet, check out Wetly Swing Pro, sign up there and we’ll follow up with you on details. Alright, next episode. Alex Zini Hall Zini. Dave (1h 28m 18s): This guy is a, is what do you call this guy? He’s unique. We watched a, a short film on Alex, it was pretty awesome. Steelhead Angler. So we’re gonna get it with Alex Zini. If you know Zini, stay tuned for that next episode. He’ll be here. All right. Appreciate you for stopping in today. Hope you have a great afternoon. Hope you have a great evening. Or if it’s morning and you’re cooking up those eggs, enjoy them and we’ll see you on that next episode. Outro (1h 28m 42s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing.com.

survival tips

Conclusion with Brett Stoffel on Top Survival Tips for Anglers and Adventurers

Whether you’re heading to a high mountain lake or deep into steelhead country, this episode with Brett Stoffel offers clear, no-nonsense advice that could save your life. From why a plastic contractor bag beats a space blanket to the power of a signal mirror, Brett’s six-part survival kit plan is something every angler should consider. Check out Brett’s gear and resources at OutdoorSafe.com, and remember—survival isn’t about fear, it’s about being ready.

756 | Fly Fishing Seattle Washington with Dave McCoy – Emerald Water Anglers, Skagit Spey, Patagonia

Episode Show Notes

Would you guide steelhead anglers through Washington’s wild rivers, then hop on a flight to Gabon or French Polynesia to chase something completely different—all while pushing the fly fishing industry to care more and do better?

Today we’re joined by Dave McCoy, Patagonia Fly Fish ambassador and owner of Emerald Water Anglers. Dave breaks down the real state of steelhead conservation, the overlooked opportunities in warmwater fly fishing, and why swinging flies is more than a method—it’s a mindset. He shares the story of helping launch Patagonia’s Fly Fish social presence, his conversations with Yvon Chouinard, and why guiding should include deeper dialogue—yes, even about politics.

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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

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You’ll also hear about his global travel program, from sea-run cutthroat in Seattle to tarpon in rivers and bonefish in the Bahamas. Plus, Dave explains why your first fly fishing trip shouldn’t always be for trout, how Patagonia is rethinking wader design, and how listening—really listening—might just save the sport.


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Full Podcast Transcript

Episode Transcript
Dave Stewart (2s): Today we get into steelhead conservation, the evolution of Skagen, and what new angling opportunities you might want to explore this year. From spay rods to global travel, warm water species to Patagonia gear. By the end of this episode, you’ll have a better understanding of your northwest angling opportunities and the right mindset to move forward with this year. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to fish species. We all love. Dave McCoy, Emerald Water angling guru and Patagonian ambassadors shares an inside look at the ever changing and expanding world of Washington. Fly fishing. You’re gonna find out what makes sea run cutthroat so special. Dave Stewart (43s): How to approach steelhead with the right mindset, like we said before, and why spa casting is more accessible than ever. This year we’re gonna talk about the spa clay. There’s a few updates there. Plus we’re gonna dig into warm water species like carp and bass, and how to travel with purpose and why politics should be a topic on your next guide trip with your guide. Alright, let’s get into it. This is Dave McCoy from emerald water anglers.com. How you doing, Dave? Dave McCoy (1m 11s): I am fabulous now. Thanks for asking. Dave Stewart (1m 13s): Awesome. Yeah, we had a little bit of, a little bit of effort to get going this morning, but we love the tech. The tech is out there. We love it because it keeps us doing podcasts and Oh, yeah. And all this good stuff. I’m, Dave McCoy (1m 24s): I’m petting it as we speak. I just love tech so much. Right? Dave Stewart (1m 27s): Yeah. You’re in the tech, you’re in one of those tech world. We were just up in Seattle. I tried. I was gonna stop by the shop, but you guys closed a little bit early, so I missed you. Mm. Dave McCoy (1m 34s): Bummer. Dave Stewart (1m 35s): We were up for a ballet of, of some family. Dave McCoy (1m 37s): Oh, wish I would’ve been there. It would’ve been great to see you. Dave Stewart (1m 40s): Yeah, yeah. But, but we miss it. But Seattle’s a cool, a cool town. You’re up in, in Seattle on the west side, and, and you got some good stuff. So we’re gonna talk maybe a, a clay, we’re gonna talk an update on what you guys do with your travel program, Washington, but let’s take it back. For those that didn’t hear the episode, episode 77 back in 2019, Dave McCoy (1m 58s): I was gonna ask you how long ago that was. Dave Stewart (2m 0s): Yeah, it’s amazing. You could say it’s been like six years ago, but it has, so what, what’s been anything new? I know there’s a lot new, but give us a quick update on who you are, what Emerald Water anglers, what you do up there. Dave McCoy (2m 11s): Yeah, so probably the biggest news for the company is the moving of the store. So we relocated the retail space, not very far, only about a block and a half from the old location down onto California Avenue, which is the main thoroughfare for commerce in, in our little business district. So we’re literally right on the right in the epicenter of our business district now, so, which is fantastic. It’s gonna provide us so much more foot traffic and exposure and be able to have so many more conversations with people about fly fishing that have never really encountered it before, outside of TV commercials or movies or something like that. Dave McCoy (2m 53s): But out of curiosity, walk into the store and, And we can have, you know, hopefully those conversations that get people to just maybe take a casting class and see if they like it. And then voila, we got a new fly angler on our hands. There Dave Stewart (3m 7s): You go. And that’s kind of on the Yeah, you’re on the, I mean, your west side, you’re not too far from the water, right? I mean, there’s water everywhere in Seattle, but Yeah, we’re Dave McCoy (3m 15s): Surrounded. Dave Stewart (3m 16s): You’re surrounded by water, but, but at least you’re not near the, the Space Needle, right? You’re a little bit further west. Yeah, Dave McCoy (3m 21s): We’re in what’s called West Seattle, which is a little bit of a peninsula, kind of across from downtown. So we’ve got, literally, Elliot Bay is on our east side and Puget Sound proper is on our, on our left. So we’re right in the center of it. Dave Stewart (3m 36s): Nice. Yeah. Well there’s, you know, like I said, there’s a couple things, and I wanna check on the podcast too, because I know you’re a big Patagonia supporter and and they’re doing great stuff. We love talking about them. And so, and you had a podcast with Yvonne Sheard back a while. You had a conversation with him. Yeah. I wanna check in on that, but let’s just go back, you know, real quick to what you guys do up there. So you’ve got all this water. I think last time we talked, we talked about fishing, like seed run cutthroat. Yeah. But give us a little, like if somebody’s in Washington or coming up through Washington, what are the opportunities up there? Dave McCoy (4m 8s): Well, that’s so hard to put that. Yeah, this’ll take us an hour. It’s a Dave Stewart (4m 13s): Lot. Dave McCoy (4m 14s): So as we speak, we’re sort of at that junction of, it’s a little bit like pro sports. You have basketball coming to an end, hockey coming to an end, but then you’re having baseball kind of get into full swing. It’s kind of the same thing with fishing around here. Puget Sound is just starting to hit its stride for the year. So chum Fry and other bait fish forms are starting to enter the sound. And the cutthroat are starting to, you know, do their Nat geo around the shorelines of trouncing, little bait balls of them and stuff like that. So that’s super exciting. We had the Skagit and Sock Rivers open seven days a week for the first time in quite a while for wild steelhead this year. Dave McCoy (4m 57s): And I was driving by, I was driving back from up there yesterday and the sock, oh my God, there was so many people up there. Oh, were there. Holy cow. Dave Stewart (5m 5s): The river was packed. Dave McCoy (5m 6s): Oh my goodness. Yeah, it was, every pullout had at least one or two cars, and the boat ramps were loaded. So that’s coming to an end here in about a week and a half up there on the Skagit and Sock for the season. And then the Yakima, you know, typically starts to show it’s, it’s hatches about now. I mean, people like to talk about the Squala hatch. I think that’s mostly from people that rely a hundred percent on the Yakima, trying to get people excited to get over there sooner. When people talk about hatches of stone flies and they’ve been in the Rockies, they probably envision trying to, you know, talk with their mouth closed So that they don’t swallow terra narcissist or something by accident. Dave McCoy (5m 49s): This hatch for the squalls is not that prolific. So it happens, but it’s just not a, it’s not as huge a deal as it is in other parts of the country. But March Browns beta, we’ll start seeing PMDs here soon. And then Cadis of course, in May. And then that’s kind of in, in its full swing mode too. Bass in the lakes are starting to warm up. That’s kind of a new direction for us trying to pay a lot more attention to warm water species around here. So carp and bass and muskie. Yeah, there’s a lot going on. Dave Stewart (6m 21s): Yeah, you got a ton. So, and you guys cover not just the west side, so you’re heading over on the east side a little bit of in Washington. Yep. Dave McCoy (6m 28s): Absolutely. Always have. Dave Stewart (6m 29s): So I mean, the Skagit, so that’s a always a big topic because we, And we’ve talked a lot about that, this, because of all the steelhead stuff. What is going on do, is that, I mean, that must be a good sign if it, it’s opening it up for seven days. Do, do you have a good kind of finger on the pulse of, of the run and all that? Dave McCoy (6m 46s): It’s, I was just talking about this with Joe Sano yesterday up at his studio. And you know, I think the thing that people have to keep in mind when they start getting excited about steelhead in the Pacific Northwest is that the number of fish returning and how we base whether rivers are open or not, or open for periods of time, and then calculate interactions to d determine whether or not they’re gonna stay open or not is not an exact science. It’s observational science at best. And so, you know, I just don’t know that anybody, I’m sure that there’s somebody that wants to get in my face and argue about that and that’s totally fine. Dave McCoy (7m 28s): I’m happy to do it because it is true. It is observational science at best. And so we get really excited about a big year and for good reason, everybody wants to wield their spay rods and get out and swing flies and you know, Bob or fish, you know, however they’re gonna do it, pull plugs, whatever. It doesn’t even have to be fly fishing. But at the end of the day, we just have to realize that those numbers are a lot of times inflated for one reason or another. And it’s not often, it does happen occasionally, but it’s not often that the numbers come back either as expected or above what is expected. A lot of times it’s less than expected. Dave McCoy (8m 9s): So just have to be pragmatic about that. And I know that in the angling community with the ability to get your information in a hundred different places, right? It’s difficult for people to be pragmatic and not emotional. Dave Stewart (8m 22s): Yeah. It seems like you could get, depending on who you talk to, you know, you can get a different answer. Right. And find, absolutely. Find your answer Dave McCoy (8m 29s): A lot like our political world. Right? Dave Stewart (8m 30s): Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You can Dave McCoy (8m 33s): Justify however you feel, just look in one place. Yep, Dave Stewart (8m 36s): Yep. So, and I asked that because we’ve had, you know, on the podcast, I know on our, In the Bucket series, Brian nis has been talking about that quite a bit with the, just the difference in the closures. And if you look it up in Canada, you know, like the Chena system, they have a, a little bit of a unique, it’s not perfect, but they have a different system. The Z system, they’ve been talking a lot about, were over, you know, and a lot of people like that, I guess. ’cause it’s kinda limited entry, it’s a random draw, you know, but, so, I dunno, I I start to think about that for some of these rivers, like you say, it’s packed the river, you know, like think of impacts, you know, are there maybe, maybe there aren’t many impacts when the river’s totally packed, you know, and people are catching a few fish and releasing. I don’t know. But Dave McCoy (9m 15s): I have to believe there is. I mean, when you’re talking about, I mean, it would be, it’s a good question. I’d love to see the numbers of licenses sold. And if you could get people to be honest about where they fished and, you know, just determine how many people put a line in the water on the hoe or the Skagit in a year. And there’s been data in the past that said that, you know, on when the, so duck was really low, that we caught every one of those fish two and a half times based on how many interactions were had with fish on that watershed versus how many people were fishing or how many fish returned. So I have to believe there’s impact. I mean, there’s some science that can back that up saying, you know, we’ve got a between a two and a 10% chance of mortality from catch and release phishing. Dave McCoy (10m 3s): So, and you know, you see pictures of people not handling fish well, so you have to assume that that’s, you know, Dave Stewart (10m 12s): It’s happening. Dave McCoy (10m 12s): That’s happening. So yeah, I, I mean, I have to believe that there’s impact there. You’d be literally turning a blind eye to try to deny that. Dave Stewart (10m 20s): Right. And I know Jeff was down there at your spa claim. Give us a little update on that. What, what’s the, the name of that claim? Was this the first year you guys did it in a while? Dave McCoy (10m 28s): No, this is our, this was, this was our 10th year this year. Oh, wow. Dave Stewart (10m 32s): 10th year. Dave McCoy (10m 33s): Yeah. I mean, it’s not a spay clave. Dave Stewart (10m 35s): Yeah, it’s not a, okay. Dave McCoy (10m 36s): It’s not, I mean, it is, and it’s not, it’s not inclusive in that, that we are doing it in conjunction with a bunch of other shops or anything like that. It’s something that I know is a deficit here in this part of the Pacific Northwest. And I have the willingness and the energy to do it. So I do it, and I’m fortunate, extremely fortunate to be able to call on some wonderful people in this sport, in this industry who will come and be present and assist with it and add value to it. I mean, like a clay, it’s free. We get as many of the brands there So that you can cast rods as possible. Dave McCoy (11m 19s): My intention with it is that it’s not a, you know, have a bunch of celebrities come in and, and spend all the time on the water listening to guys talk about, you know, spay orama or rod design, or how to, you know, how to cast. We do two to three really short presentations. And then the rest of the time, those people that are there between sales reps and everything else are there to help you learn how to cast. So it’s either, it’s either come and bring what you have to figure out the right head on the rod that you’ve got because it maybe hasn’t been working Right. Or you’re curious about spay and you want to just get in the water and have somebody help you figure it out for free. Dave McCoy (11m 59s): And it’s growing. It’s, it’s gotten better every year. And, and so I’m, I’m excited to do it. And it’s, it’s fun to see people learn something that for a long time the sport kind of shoved in a dark corner because it wasn’t single hand casting. Dave Stewart (12m 14s): Yeah. Is that kind of how it rolled out the spay? I mean, ’cause it’s been out there a while now if you think about it, right? The, yeah. Late nineties when it started kind of picking up. But, but it’s been, I guess, yeah, it took a while to get traction and that’s because the industry didn’t want to really embrace it. A new rod series. Dave McCoy (12m 30s): Yeah. I mean, you’ve done 900 podcasts, is that what you said? Dave Stewart (12m 34s): Yeah, something like that. So Dave McCoy (12m 35s): You’ve, you’ve talked, you know, the full breadth of people in the sport, right? So there’s people that are true blooded single hand, you know, aficionados and have zero desire to pick up a two-hander. And that’s, that is totally fine, I get it. But at one point in time, and this is just my personal feelings, there was a segment of those people in, I don’t wanna say in charge of, but that held significant purse strings in the sport to be able to say, look, fly fishing is single hand oriented and this spay thing that people are doing, this two-handed stuff people are doing doesn’t really fit into what we’re, you know, trying to do here. Dave McCoy (13m 17s): And so we wanna separate ’em. It’s totally fine that you’re here, but we don’t want cross pollination here. And you know, what we did, and I’d say this in every spay class I do, is we just, we really, you know, put a ball and chain around progress in the sport by not just allowing people to learn spay immediately. Because there’s so many elements of that that you’ll use in your single hand casting. You don’t even, I do things, and I don’t even think about it, snake rolling to change direction on the front of a skiff in The Bahamas, do it all the time. But would I have ever been taught how to do that had I not picked up a two-handed Rob? Dave McCoy (13m 57s): I don’t see FFI teaching that in the single hand process of examination. Dave Stewart (14m 3s): Yeah. So it’s bigger now. What, what is it on at your, you’re a good example, like, you know, spay versus single hand, are you still kind of 80% single people coming in there? Or is it more spay? Dave McCoy (14m 15s): Yeah. You mean into the store? Dave Stewart (14m 16s): Yeah, just in the store in general. Yeah. Dave McCoy (14m 17s): It’s, it’s still probably 80% single. But you know, I’ve tried to position our store as one that is very space centric. So ironically it means that a lot of the steelheaders that are using bobbers don’t necessarily come to us all that often because they know all we do is swing. And so therefore I don’t carry a lot of nymphs For steelhead fishing. I mean, we’ve got nymphs for trout and a lot of times they’re just exactly the same big stone flies. And you can get all fancy with the colors and huge print nymphs and other stuff. But, but yeah, I’d for people coming in For steelhead, it’s probably 90% two handers that are coming to the store for, for it. Dave McCoy (15m 4s): So we carry 11 brands of spay rods or 12, because there’s a lot of really good rods out there right now. It’s scary actually. Dave Stewart (15m 13s): Yeah, definitely. No, that’s awesome. Okay, so, so definitely spay is big and it’s cool to see the, the, like we said, the Skagit open, you know, because that’s again, the Skagit, you know, it’s this famous river. We’ve heard lots of stories about it. I mean, it sounds like, and I was talking to Jeff, like I said, he’s, I think he mentioned, you know, just numbers, right? I mean, so people are catching fish, but you gotta put your time in. What, what’s that look like out there? Is it kind of a, putting in a, a few days to find a fish, something like that? Dave McCoy (15m 39s): Yeah, I think I was talking with Joe about this yesterday And we both kind of feel as though, you know, steelhead are an amazing creature as far as their sense of timing on return based on their world and their intuitiveness to understand that water is getting lower and warmer kind of overall seasonally. And so a return during the temps that are conducive to them returning is sort of trending to be sooner than in the past. I mean, this is a very, very long conversation, so I’m just gonna barely touch on it. But yeah, in general, I would say that depending on the time of year that you’re here, you should expect to take a few days to hopefully come connected to one. Dave McCoy (16m 29s): Instagram is this lovely place where you kind of get lost in time on people’s feeds. And sometimes, you know, if you’re on the water every day, you don’t necessarily get to Instagram that day to post the Phish or no fish that day. And there’s a lot of people that are gonna just post Phish, so it’s gonna look like they’re catching fish every day. I hate to pull the, you know, the wool off of this, but they’re not Dave Stewart (16m 54s): No, no, no. And even steelhead in general, you know, or really Phish, they’re not Yeah, Dave McCoy (16m 60s): Yeah. Catching fish every day. No, sorry, sorry if I blew that up for people, but it just doesn’t happen all the time. Yeah. So yeah, you should dedicate a few days ’cause you’re gonna have bright, sunny weather one day. You’re gonna have pissing rain the next, and you might have inflated rivers through part of that. And you’re just gonna have to take what you get and hope that you’re there at the right time and that you’re covering the water well. Dave Stewart (17m 24s): Fish Hound Expeditions offers world-class fly fishing right off Alaska’s incredible road system for monster rainbow trout to feisty arctic railing. You’ll chase big species in the stunning landscape. 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I think that was really exciting. I remember when I saw that podcast you did with him, I saw it come out. I was like, man, what was that like for you? And just tell me like how you put that together. Because I mean, the guy is a, you know, this epic, you know, billion dollar company, but more than that, right? He’s giving his company away to the planet, right? Like, what is that like when you’re sitting across from him talking to him, asking him questions? Dave McCoy (18m 46s): It’s, it’s pretty intimidating. I mean, just to kind of briefly cover my history with Patagonia, I remember when I was first wearing their waiters and I was standing, I was, I remember standing in the John Day in November in freezing freezing ass cold water wearing Patagonia at the time. It was 20 years ago, literally 20 years ago, maybe 21 and or 22 even. Holy cow times going by fast. But I had the felt, it was coming off of one of my boots and I had some seam issues and I was soaking wet and all of my clients were standing there and other brands, and they were dry and warm and whatever. Dave McCoy (19m 33s): And I was standing there giving ’em grief about how the companies that they were wearing were doing absolutely nothing for the resources that we’re standing here enjoying nothing, you know, or very near nothing. Right? And so, and it, you know, several of those people still fish with me and, And we love to laugh about that. But that was the kind of the beginning of my journey towards my relationship with Patagonia now. And I remember when Bart, you know, I’d been trying to, I’d been looking at the ambassador team when, when I was not one and, and was trying to identify the traits of that collection of people at the time that I would need to mirror in some form or another in order to, for lack of a better way of saying it qualify to be considered. Dave McCoy (20m 24s): And so I started checking as many of the boxes as I could, you know, become a writer, become a photographer, stand up for what I care about within the sport conservation wise, and be, you know, vocal about it. And basically try to live a life publicly that mirrored or was on the same path, the ethos of the company, which is, in my opinion, what, what the brand is asking of anybody that, that it endorses or, or has in the front door, right? And so when I finally did ask Bart about the possibility of that, and I was brought on as one I, it was at a very pivotal time. It was when Instagram was really starting to become the prominent form of social media. Dave McCoy (21m 10s): I said to Bart, I’m like, look, we, you know, if Phish is growing phish within Patagonia, the, that arm of it was growing as fast as it was then we needed to have our own unique voice under the company umbrella. And he asked me what I meant and I said, well, I think, you know, when you look at Patagonia Global, we were at best getting one to two posts a month on Patagonia social media, you know, Instagram. And I said, I like, you know, we’ve got a community that’s starved for the kind of content that we can provide and are willing to provide, and I think we should entertain the idea of having our own channel. Dave McCoy (21m 51s): And so he’s like, well, we have, we have the GSM coming up down in Ventura here, and I’m like, a month, why don’t you come down and have some ideas ready to maybe present to a couple people? And so I was like, okay. And so I came down and, and sat at a table in the middle of the GSM with Bart and Mark Harbaugh and Yvonne and a handful of other people that were, you know, pretty high up and kind of gave my pitch. And they asked a few questions and got the nod of approval from everybody. And I had already had everything all set up. And so I was like, okay, perfect. ’cause here you go, boom. And I hit go, there’s Patagonia Fly Fish, Instagram, there’s the Facebook, here’s a Tumblr, set the Tumblr up as a, you know, as a more of a blog like thing for longer content under the Phish umbrella. Dave McCoy (22m 44s): And that was on the website for a while. Like a lot changed in that first five years. But basically I, the first time I really got to meet Yvonne was that I had to, you had to pitch him. Yeah, I kind of had to tell him that, you know, and I didn’t know if you knew who the hell I was or what. And so I was pretty intimidated by it. And then we were getting ready to leave the meeting and go to dinner and we’re standing out front waiting for some cars to come pick us up. And he’s standing next to me like he does with his, you know, his hands in his pockets and just acting, you know, being very nonchalant about things. And he looks over at me and he is like, so how’s that new shop coming along? Dave McCoy (23m 24s): Pretty excited about it. Oh, wow. And I about crap, my pants on the spot. I’m like, how in the world would you even know that I was about to open the store and this and that? Oh, wow. So this is before the store was opened. Yep, exactly. So it blew me away. So then, you know, I’ve had the privilege of spending a little bit of time with him here and there, and when we started our podcast, I’ve tried to look at how I want to do it as a form of longer format conversation in the element that we would be in with that person and the Yvonne podcast that we did. Dave McCoy (24m 4s): We were supposed to go out to Montana And we were gonna snowshoe into a section of the Madison with him and Craig Matthews to fly fish, And we were going to shoot the podcast or record the podcast while we were doing that. And unfortunately, CO had everybody a little bit spooked. And I certainly didn’t want to compromise either of those two gentlemen whatsoever. So we ended up having to just shoot it in kind of a standard format. But I mean standard, if, as standard as it gets sitting there talking to Yvonne one-on-one. Right. As you know. Yeah. Dave Stewart (24m 41s): I was lucky enough to similar. I, well, I had Craig and Yvonne on the podcast. Yeah. And, and it was, yeah, it was, it was probably one of the, the most nervous I’ve been, but, you know, because he’s, he’s so, you know, like everything he says, I, I go back to one of the questions I I, you know, I can’t remember all of ’em, but you know, he, I asked him a question and he goes back to talk. I, I was talking about the R two fleece, I think, you know, and I was saying how cool it was and how much I loved it, and he went to, you know, do you know how many micro fibers come out in the laundry that are ruining the environment and here’s what we’re doing to fix it, you know, this new washing machine by Samsung, you know, so he’s al his mind’s always there. It’s really cool. Right? Yeah. He, he never wa you know, waves from that. Dave McCoy (25m 24s): No, he is, he’s a lightning rod for people, for better and for worse. And I think, you know, the biggest thing I’ve taken away from, from being involved with him and the company is, you know, integrity for one and your perseverance to really drive yourself to follow your passion and, and what it is that means the most to you and unw from it, regardless of the flack you catch for it. And I’ve, I will thank him for the rest of my life for that leadership and sort of opening that door for me to see that that was a possibility. Yep. Dave Stewart (26m 1s): And I love that story you just shared about the shop opening and Yvonne and, and the meetings and, you know, and kind of pitch them, although you were pitching ’em the idea that was like, for them, I mean, it was a bonus. Like literally you created, you helped to start that Patagonia fly fish is essentially what you’re saying. I did start it. Yeah, you did start it. Yeah. You start, which is now it’s just you, you look now you’re like, yeah, it’s a no brainer. Of course you’ve got Patagonia, is it Fly Fish or Fish? Dave McCoy (26m 25s): Patagonia underscore Fly fish. Dave Stewart (26m 27s): Underscore Fly Fish. Yeah. So now you have just Patagonia fly, which makes total sense because Patagonia’s huge, but they do all this other stuff. Yep. And now you can go to one place. Dave McCoy (26m 36s): Yeah. I mean, it was, it was funny ’cause they, you know, their questions when we, when I pitched that was like, well, you know, where’s the content gonna come from? And the, you know, this can’t just be, you know, it needs to represent the company and, you know, all the, all the, all the normal concerns you’d have for, from a company looking at, at exposing themself like this. And we were the first sport line to have its own its own channel for the, for the brand. And I think it took, it was probably a year or two before, I can’t remember if it was surf or Climb or Alpine that came next behind us, but had conversations with them about that. And I have to be totally honest on this, my intent was to not self-promote. Dave McCoy (27m 19s): So if you go to the bottom of that scroll, the first photo on the feed is me and Travis Rummel in front of the cinema here in Seattle for, it was either a filming of, or a showing of one of his films, or it was a fly fishing film tour, I can’t remember which. And I don’t remember if it was damnation or which one it was. I’d have to go look. But, but anyway, that was the first one. And then the rest of the time I had, you know, been talking with my other friends in the sport that were willing to kind of help lift it off the ground. Josh Hutchins being one of ’em at Ozzy Fly Fisher. And basically they were just feeding me photos And we were just trying to smatter the world under that channel, showing people how cool the world was in a way that wasn’t grip and grin adhering to ke you know, keeping fish wet and being, you know, jostling between scenic and funny and conservation. Dave McCoy (28m 16s): And, you know, the things that should be should still be entertaining. But, you know, alas, our appetite for content is insatiable. So yeah, Dave Stewart (28m 27s): There’s a lot we need to keep feeding the, the, the, whatever the thing is, you know, just keep feeding, feeding it until it’s to the point where you’re, you’re just like, wow, what, what are we doing here? This is nuts, right? We’re trying, but, but you know, I think it’s interesting ’cause I think, you know, and politics is something you mentioned at the start. We don’t talk a lot about politics on here, right? It’s like the, the guide trip don’t talk politics, religion, or whatever the other thing. But it seems like, you know, Patagonia, they are a lightning rod for some, right? But how do you balance that with what you have? I’m sure you, you hear from some people, but the political stuff versus just doing the right thing about conservation and protecting, like how do you, how do you balance that and how do you, how do you deal with that? ’cause you also guide, right? Dave Stewart (29m 7s): You’re out in the water with people. Yeah, yeah. Dave McCoy (29m 10s): No, it’s a great question. I think, you know, that cliche statement of don’t talk religion, politics, and money with, with your clients is, I’d love to have that cliche as well as a few others just get thrown down the garbage disposal and never brought up again. I think if you are incapable of having that conversation with somebody, then sure. But if you’re incapable of having that conversation and in earnest being able to converse about it and hear and listen, you know, that’s, that’s a big problem with anybody anymore, is the ability to listen then yeah, you probably not only shouldn’t have that conversation, but maybe you shouldn’t be guiding as a profession. Dave McCoy (29m 56s): I mean, I, I hate to say it like that, that’s gonna ruffle a lot of feathers, I am sure. But at the end of the day, it’s mutual time that you’re spending with your clients in whatever element that you’re in. And this is just my opinion, but if you want to have that time become more precious, you have to be able to delve deeper with people than just being on the surface of what you’re doing. If that makes sense. Like, you’ve gotta be able to have earnest conversations that get into people’s heart and emotions. And if you’re incapable of being able to stand next to somebody that doesn’t necessarily see eye to eye with you on a number of different things and still have an enjoyable experience on both sides, then you know, you’ve got some learning to do. Dave McCoy (30m 45s): I think. And for me, that’s where I believe that I am pretty adept at this. And I’ve used a number of different tools to, to do so. One is the camera that we’ve talked about in the past. I, I believe that when you reach a point of mutual agree to disagree kind of moment in space like that, it it’s good you found that you, you found the place where, you know, you guys differ in in how you feel about stuff. And that’s where I can use, I choose to use the camera to capture photos to present to them later, to soften and kind of blur that, that moment or that space, because they’re gonna see that, that moment through my eyes now and not just through theirs. Dave McCoy (31m 34s): And I think it helps lead to a deeper appreciation of each other’s time and the place, the location, the, the fish, the water, all these different things. And over time people start to listen better, I believe, if you’re able to, to come to the table with, with more than just your opinion. Dave Stewart (31m 54s): Right? So that’s the key takeaway is that it’s just not the listening, right. The opinion’s and listening. So it’s not just your opinion you’re bringing, but it’s, you’re listening to the other person. I think that is the biggest thing, right? I think that’s the, the political thing that we’ve lost. It seems like recently the, the ability to, you know, the, you hear these stories about back in the day with the, the senators and stuff where they used to hang out and chat from different sides of the aisle and get stuff done. Right? I feel like that that’s, that’s the struggle. And same thing here. You’re just saying that like, hey, we’re, we can have disagreements on stuff, but we still should be talking, right? Dave McCoy (32m 28s): Yeah. We have to, you know, and at the end of the day it’s, it’s a little bit cheating on my part because I’m gonna get my point across to them. It’s just not gonna be through the front door, if that makes sense. You know, I’m gonna, I’m gonna get you to care about the same way I do, even though politically we might disagree on, on a lot of things. But I’m gonna get you there because I’m gonna, I’m gonna show you elements of this fishery or, or what’s, you know, what’s in peril here from the back door. I’m gonna get you to care about it through showing you a really unique experience that you may not have anywhere else or with anybody else. I’m going to allow you to relive it through capturing it through photos and video and, and present that to you afterwards So that it just constantly resonates with you, ends up being your screen screensaver on your computer. Dave McCoy (33m 17s): And slowly but surely that’s gonna just bleed its way into you. And, and next thing you know, you’re gonna start to think about that in a way of that affects how you live your daily life. Dave Stewart (33m 30s): Fish to Fly Guide service is passionate about sharing Jackson Hole’s world class fishing from its iconic rivers to hidden backcountry waters, the legendary mutant stone and other fantastic hatches bring explosive top water eats during peak season. Backcountry creeks hold hidden gems where every band offers something new and wild. Trout rise in untouched waters. Jackson Hole sits in the golden circle for trout home to the headwaters of three major river systems, the snake, the green, and the Yellowstone. Here you can chase native cutthroat trout, big browns, wild rainbows, and even K on the fly. If this is your kind of fishing fish, the fly guide service is ready to take you there. Book your trip right now@fishthefly.com. Dave Stewart (34m 12s): You have a travel program. You guys, I, I know you’ve been everywhere it seems like, but talk about that a little bit. This has been going on a while. Where are you guys traveling? Do you do an equal amount of kind of fish in the home waters around there versus the travel out and broad? Dave McCoy (34m 27s): Yeah, I mean, I, I try to, for me travel is, is just a way for me to become better, make new friends. I’m curious. Like so many other people are curious, right? I’m curious. I, I see things on the news or I, I read things in magazines and I’m just curious. I wanna go see it. And I’ve, you know, again, been extremely fortunate to have accumulated this vast network of friends all over the world. And what do you want to do more than anything with your friends? Go see ’em, right? Yep. And so, you know, and so I was in Gabon earlier this year just in French Polynesia. Dave McCoy (35m 7s): Again, it’s kind of one of the places I’m continuing to go back to through Indie Fly Foundation and then Hof to The Bahamas down to see Kyle, one of my fellow Patagonia ambassadors next week. And yeah, I, I don’t know, I just, everything’s exciting to me. Whether it’s carp or aer or bone or tarpon in a river, like just, it’s all exciting to me. It’s all good. Especially for the first time. Yeah. Dave Stewart (35m 35s): Yeah. And you mentioned a few, like your warmer water stuff you guys are getting into. I mean, that’s something we just did an episode with. We were in Arizona, Phoenix, just talking about fishing for, you know, carp and, and different, you know, the grass canals Dave McCoy (35m 48s): Down Dave Stewart (35m 48s): There. Yeah, exactly. The canals. Well there’s even some, he was even saying there’s some, some flats fishing on some of the lakes and reservoirs. Dave McCoy (35m 55s): That’s fantastic. How’s that not exciting to people? I don’t get it. Dave Stewart (35m 58s): That’s what I mean. I, I feel like when I’m always fired up, I feel like it is. But yeah, I guess carp, it feels like carps kind of on the map now because people have, you know, we’ve heard about it’s getting there. Yeah, it’s getting there. But then you got bass, you got all these other warm even, you know, the smaller fish, right. All of the sunfish and stuff. Right? Totally. Is that what you guys, what’s that look like for your program? ’cause you have this already, you’ve already talked, you’ve got this travel program all around the world. You’ve got all your steelhead and the stuff at home. How do you go into the next thing? What does that look like? Dave McCoy (36m 25s): Yeah, I, I mean, I think that while Carp is on the map, like there’s two big carp events here in Washington in the next little bit. House of Flies hosting one down on the Columbia. And then we’re quietly kind of helping host one over on Banks Lake in mid to late July through Bill Marts. Oh Dave Stewart (36m 45s): Yeah. Yeah. Dave McCoy (36m 46s): And it’s still an uphill climb. We’re still trying to get people to realize that there’s more diverse opportunities around here than just going to the Yakima. And you know, I think like anything else I can talk about till I’m blue in the face and we’re starting to see this, so my next comment isn’t meant to slam anybody ’cause it is actually starting to happen. But we need the magazines And we need the brands to start showing the public that there’s stuff other than steelhead and tr Oh, Dave Stewart (37m 17s): Right. Dave McCoy (37m 18s): And I’ve had this conversation with people at multiple brands. I’m like, look, it’s, it’s on your plate. I’m face-to-face with the customer, but the customer is gonna believe everything outta my mouth is subjective. And it has to be under the umbrella of the brand saying, for lack of a better way, saying it granting a thumbs up to Yes, you can go do that with our stuff. Right. Dave Stewart (37m 45s): And we have the stuff Dave McCoy (37m 46s): Exactly. You can go do, you can go chase carp, it’s okay, you should go do that. See, look here, we’re showing you a carp with one of our rods. You know, as soon as, as soon as we get the brands to really start pushing that agenda, instead of it always being trout and steelhead or bonefish, then I think you’ll start to see the public turn more quickly. But as of now, it’s still mostly us trying to push that agenda. Dave Stewart (38m 8s): Right. And then there’s certain areas where maybe the, you know, the, I’d go back to Schultz, you know, we’re heading out with those guys to do some stuff in Michigan. Yeah, cool. You know, the places where it’s saying, you know, their home waters. Right. You’re talking, those are the native range, but, you know. Yeah, for sure. Not that that, not that that matters. ’cause there’s lots of non-native fish that people are fishing for over there as well. Yep. But, but it’s, yeah, I see it. You know, and then the, the companies come out with the rods and the lions that’re specific to carp or bass or whatever it is. Right. And then everybody’s Yeah. And you’re seeing the photos. Yeah. From my perspective, I guess because I have interviewed so many people, I feel like, you know, we’ve talked a lot about it, all these species. But what do you think on the salt, because that’s another piece, right? The salt, I mean, you guys have salt near you, but yeah. Dave Stewart (38m 49s): More of the warm water stuff versus the carp. I mean, I, I feel like still the car bass is a bigger potential audience because it’s all in, you know, the US or, you know. Right. We have all these species here. How do you see that, or how do, what does the evolution look like for a flyr they come into your shop as a new person? Do they still start with trout or do you think starting them with bass or something else might be a good way to go? Dave McCoy (39m 11s): That’s a fabulous question, Dave. I mean, that is the question. My personal hope is, and it’s why we embrace so many of the different things that are around here, is that anybody that’s gonna pick up a fly rod is going to be a 12 month a year fly angler. You know, I think that when you direct people into the world of trout, depending on where they live, trout might only be a seasonal target for ’em. And if fly fishing is that is valuable enough for people to choose to do that with their time, then you, you know, again, by you, I mean me and other, you know, point of sale professionals in the, in the sport need to be trying to help people embrace everything that that fly rod can bring to them. Dave McCoy (40m 4s): Like, we need to, we need to make sure people feel comfortable chasing bass and carp and catfish and whatever it is that they can do on the fly rod. Like, and maybe it’s a little bit of travel for ’em, but at least then they’re still doing it. You know, there’s people catching carp, I think close to 12 months a year around Washington depending on where they, where they go. And so I don’t know that a lot of people know that in, even in our neck of the woods. But that would be something that if we can get people past the idea that it’s not a trout and get to the point where they’re sight casting to a fish that puts a pretty deep bend in a rod, which hello, if we leave the species out of it, isn’t that really what we’re there to do and to do so without there being, you know, 500 people around us, then I think we’ve accomplished our goal. Dave McCoy (40m 58s): Right. Dave Stewart (40m 59s): Yeah, definitely. And you have some tribe, I mean, that’s what we talked about in the last episode. The, it’s pretty unique. I mean, the sea run, the cutthroat trout that are in that area is you’ve got this cool, unique thing going on, which you can’t do everywhere, right? I mean Right. But you, what you don’t have is these giant trout, well you have steelhead of course, but you don’t have the giant trout that maybe grow on the east side. Right. Or maybe Montana. They’re bigger fish. Yep. Dave McCoy (41m 21s): I mean, we do, we have some, but I would never, that’s never gonna be the first five things out of my mouth talking to somebody. Dave Stewart (41m 29s): Yeah. You’re not gonna be talking about big brown trout. Dave McCoy (41m 31s): Nope. Or big. Or big Rainbows. Rainbows. Yeah. No, I’m gonna talk about the experience first that I think the result oriented sales pitch is lost on so many people now. Dave Stewart (41m 42s): Oh, you mean the result being like, you’re gonna catch a giant fish. Dave McCoy (41m 45s): Yeah, exactly. You’re gonna become a, i I start with you’re gonna be become a better angler. You’re gonna see some really cool stuff. You’re going to be in an absolutely gorgeous place and you’re not gonna see hardly any other people, if any at all. And we might encounter a fish, and if you’re into that, we’re gonna be good friends. Dave Stewart (42m 5s): That’s it. Yeah. So regardless whether you catch, I mean, that’s the cool thing about whether you catch a big fish, a bunch of fish, or even maybe a fish, right? You’re still gonna learn, learn about the area, be able to bring those skills back to, you know, your next day on the water. Yeah. Which is pretty cool because we just had our group, we have a, a small, you know, wetly swing pro community, you know, that’s growing now. And we had our a meeting a little q and a last night. It was really cool because we were all just sitting around talking about what we’re saying here, like where people were going, where they’re traveling to. And definitely funding is part of it. You know, not everybody can, you know, afford a $10,000 trip or 8,000 Right. Dave McCoy (42m 40s): Or a 3000 Dave Stewart (42m 41s): Trip or a 3000. Yeah. I mean, so it’s like we’re, I’m trying to think more of the, you know, out of the box on Yeah. What are the things. And I think the getting a guide trip for a day, if you can, is a good way to do it because you can learn a day on the water and then go out the next day on your own Right. And explore. Yeah. Dave McCoy (42m 57s): Yeah. And I, I mean, and I, I have my opinions on things. Everything outta my mouth is mostly subjective, you know, out of, you know, curated through my personal experiences. Right. I try to be as objective on a lot of it as I can. And, you know, that’s where I would say this. And that is, if you are going to hire a guide, do some due diligence and really be thoughtful on what you want out of that experience, the more due diligence you do as the person hiring a guide on what your expectations are, come to the table with that on very, very out front and give the guide or the guide service or the shop the opportunity to see if that’s a good fit. Dave McCoy (43m 42s): Because at least I’ll speak for me, at least for us and at Emerald Water anglers, I don’t want to take somebody’s money and take them on a trip where we aren’t going to exceed their expectations. Absolutely. Do not wanna have to apologize at the end of a trip. And I would say that the majority of the people in this space, in our sport feel that same way, but maybe aren’t comfortable enough to say that out loud. Dave Stewart (44m 16s): Yeah. Because of the, the expectations of Well, we’ve heard that a lot. Money. Yeah. The money. You don’t Dave McCoy (44m 22s): Wanna turn somebody away, Dave Stewart (44m 23s): Right? Yeah. You don’t wanna turn somebody away, but if you can, you actually do. Yeah, that’s Dave McCoy (44m 27s): Right. I hate to say it. You Dave Stewart (44m 28s): Actually do. If you can’t deliver Yeah. If you can’t deliver for them. Dave McCoy (44m 30s): If it’s somebody that’s all about, Hey, I want 20 big trout today. Well you’re in Seattle, that’s not gonna happen. Dave Stewart (44m 37s): Or I want to catch a steel, I wanna land my first steelhead today Dave McCoy (44m 41s): No matter what. Yeah. It’s gotta happen. Well, you know, there’s, you gotta talk through that with somebody like that, right? Yeah. Dave Stewart (44m 48s): Like I’m coming in saying, man, I’ve been wanting a steelhead for my whole life, you know, and I, this is it. I mean, I’m gonna put everything In today to get it done. That’s, that’s my number one goal. And if I don’t, if I don’t get a steelhead, I’m gonna be disappointed. Dave McCoy (45m 2s): Yeah. And I, I mean I, again, I think you have to talk through that with somebody because a lot of people are gonna come with that. And I think after a more in depth conversation, if you’re, if you’re paying attention, you can read between the lines on what that means. Yes. Everybody’s gonna come wanting a steelhead. Yeah. Dave Stewart (45m 21s): Right. Dave McCoy (45m 21s): Right. That’s the goal. Are you kidding me? That’s the goal, right. Always the goal. Yeah. But if you can talk through that and determine that, and it, I can usually tell in the first sentence or two outta their mouth if it’s, if this is a good fit or not. And usually, and believe it or not, I still hear this is, you know, how many fish are we gonna catch? Dave Stewart (45m 40s): Right? Dave McCoy (45m 42s): Like, well, wow, okay, so I’ve already sort of written this off as I’m gonna suggest you probably look at a different guide service ’cause this isn’t, we’re not gonna be a good fit for you. You just don’t, nobody catches that many fish anymore. No. Even the bobber guys have days where they don’t catch fish. So either the whole sport has to shift how we are promoting, pursuing steelhead, at least in the Pacific Northwest. Or we are gonna have to do, some of us have to do a little bit better job of determining who our clients are and who they’re, who aren’t. And it, you know, it’s, it’s a shifting baseline. Not everybody’s gonna stay in their same lane the whole time as far as, you know, how they want to pursue fish steelheads, just like any other thing. Dave McCoy (46m 25s): Somebody’s gonna do whatever it takes to get that first one, and then they’re gonna want a day where they catch a bunch of those and then at some point they start to care enough about it that they start to see that the numbers aren’t what they were 20, 30 years ago. And that’s concerns ’em. And so then they, you know, are open to, they, they become spay curious and, and whether that’s spay with a single or spay with a actual two-hander, then you start to have that conversation, then you’ve Yeah. And I don’t say that you’ve arced them, maybe they’ve arced themself in, in that, in that way, where now it’s process oriented. It’s, it’s not result oriented. And that’s, and that’s a huge difference. Dave McCoy (47m 7s): And I even look at that as for our international travel. Dave Stewart (47m 10s): Yeah. You look at, you mean as far as when people are booking trips? Yep. Same thing because you can’t control, I mean, you’re now, you’re not the guide. Right. There’s somebody else, but you can still control the expectations. Yeah, Dave McCoy (47m 21s): I, I, exactly. I know what my expectation is from the trip and if I can convey how I chose to book this destination to somebody, and it sounds amenable to them on all fronts, perfect. But I literally shot an email off to a guy this morning telling him that one of our trips I don’t think is a good fit for him, you know, for a number of reasons. But one of them is that, you know, he wants to catch a lot of fish. And I’m like, we just don’t catch a lot of fish here. Dave Stewart (47m 51s): You mentioned the waiters, Patagonia, as we were talking about Patagonia interest, I remember, you know, I don’t currently have a pair of Patagonia or any waiters, but I remember when they first got going, I had a friend Shannon, shout out to Shannon, he had some waiters and I remember, yeah, there may have been some early on some issues with them. I feel like things have changed now that they’ve been doing this so long. What are the, you guys have all the gear in there, like waiters, all the lines, all that stuff. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. What’s the, is it the swift current waiters? Is there a new line or what’s your take on Yeah, Dave McCoy (48m 19s): The, the new traverse waiters are, you know, I don’t want this to become an ad, but one of the things that we look for is, you know, customer service on the brand side. And Patagonia is as good as it gets. The fact that the waiter has been built, the way that it’s been built with the recycled material for the, for the bulk of the material is unbelievable. Dave Stewart (48m 41s): So it’s recycled literally old waiters and stuff that have come back. Dave McCoy (48m 45s): Yeah. I can’t, I don’t know to go into the de tech details of it, Dave Stewart (48m 49s): But Yeah. Dave McCoy (48m 50s): But that is, I mean, I do, but, but I’m not gonna be able to deliver it in a way that’s gonna sound great. But, you know, between that and, you know, paying attention to the PFAS and not having any of that in any of the materials anymore and haven’t had it for a while, the fact that you can get a zip front for 5 49 now is outstanding from a company like Patagonia and the zipper’s a hundred bucks by itself Oh wow. On any pair of waiters. Damn. At least a hundred bucks. Yeah. So to be able to get into a waiter with that sort of backing from a company and built the way the traverse is built is a commitment from the brand to the consumer that they want to be able to more affordably put, and I hate the word best, but the most suitable equipment on you for what you’re gonna go do possible. Dave Stewart (49m 44s): Which is for what we’ve been talking about, you know, maybe steelhead fishing in a cold river, you know, up to your waist Yeah. All day long. Yeah. Dave McCoy (49m 53s): Trying to steal all day long. Yeah. Good luck with that. Right? Dave Stewart (49m 56s): Yeah. Right out all day long. I, I joke about some of the, the trip I took to New York when I was with, with Rick ic. Yeah. And it was, it was one of those cool days that I was not fully ready, you know, but you know, he, that’s winter steelhead fishing, You know what I mean? That’s, that’s part of the deal. But no, cool. I, I like that because I think, you know, hopefully I’m gonna be wearing a pair of those waiters soon and I don’t take off my, like I said, my R two, that stuff, I wear that all the time. It’s, it’s cool to see because again, you, you’ve got products that are, I think even though organic, I think maybe Patagonia was the first, the first company that kind of came out with the organic t-shirt or at least promoted it out there. But Sure. It’s like this stuff that actually works, that’s the cool thing. And it’s recycled right. And it has all this conservation benefit and that, that’s, I think, what’s exciting about all this. Dave McCoy (50m 40s): Yeah. It’s, I totally agree with you. And it’s, it’s frustrating at times how, you know, people really bash the brand for a number of different reasons these days. It’s mostly political and you know, I, I think being objective when I talk to people about waiters in the store, it’s my least favorite product to sell because I don’t know how you use your waiters. Yeah, Dave Stewart (51m 2s): That’s true. Dave McCoy (51m 3s): You know, and I think people need to hear this. ’cause I don’t know that every shop’s gonna articulate it this way when they go in to talk to ’em about it. But I don’t know how you’re gonna use these when you leave. I don’t know that you’re not going to decide that you’ve got a big blackberry thing in your backyard. You’re gonna clear out and you think your waiters are bomb proofs. You’re gonna use that to keep from getting scratched and Right. Dave Stewart (51m 23s): Or if you throw your waiters in the back of the truck wet and just leave ’em in there Dave McCoy (51m 26s): For Right. Leave them in there. Or you slide, you decide the easiest access to the river is just to slide on your butt down 50 feet of hillside. That’s right. They’re gonna fail on you. I don’t care what brand they’re gonna fail on. You. You know, and I say this because I see how people treat our rental waiters that we have for the guide service, and I’m like, oh my God, we got three weeks out of these. Are you kidding me? Dave Stewart (51m 47s): Wow. Yeah. Dave McCoy (51m 48s): And I look at ’em, I got holes everywhere and I kind of get on my guides. I’m like, you can’t let people do this stuff on in these things. I think you have to come prepared for the fallibility of, of the product. It’s, it’s all got a lifespan regardless of the brand. And I’ve seen every single one of the brands have a quality control issue at one point or another. You know, and so yeah, all Dave Stewart (52m 14s): Companies, probably every Dave McCoy (52m 15s): Single one of them, or at least the five or six that we’ve ever dealt with, I’ve seen every one of them leak out of the box brand new with clients, every single one of them. So, sorry, nobody’s better than another on that one. It’s just a quality control issue. It’s humans are fallible and these things are being made by humans. Right. It’s just, just put two and two together here, there’s gonna be some failures in in there occasionally. Nobody wants that. They’re doing everything they can to not have that happen, but it happens. So get out of the space of holding that against whatever brand did that to you, and just realize that that’s part of it Dave Stewart (52m 55s): And that’s where the customer service comes in place. Dave McCoy (52m 58s): You took the words right outta my mouth. Dave Stewart (52m 59s): Yeah, that’s it. That’s what’s cool about it. So they have a good customer service, so if there are issues, they, and, and they have of course the the repair thing I think, which is really cool, right. Where they’re repairing your, your garments for free. Dave McCoy (53m 11s): When I helped Pat Jenkins start recycled waiters, we did this thing where we, early, early on first couple of years when, when I was helping him with that, you know, one of the things that I, that I sort of brought up to him was that waiters become an emotional part of, of your equipment for a lot of people. These have traveled the world with you. Sometimes they’re Dave Stewart (53m 32s): Living out of them. They’re living Dave McCoy (53m 33s): Exactly that big purple spot on your left leg is where you guys were drinking wine after, you know, a huge sea run brown in Argentina and you, and you got, you know, two drunk and you spilled half a bottle on you. And, and, and every time you look down, that memory is with you wherever you are wearing those waiters. Right. And so, you know, initially we were taking people’s waiters in and, and offering to make them a specific, you know, piece upcycled piece from that portion of the waiter So that that could be still with them, like a wallet with that stain on it or the satchel with that stain on it or, you know, whatever it was. Right. And so the idea that Patagonia is trying to allow people to get more life out of the waiters that they’ve come to love just speaks volumes to where the company stands with regards to a smaller footprint and, you know, trying to get as much out of your equipment as possible. Dave McCoy (54m 29s): You know, knowing that waiters are, you know, it’s one thing to have a ski jacket and have snow, you know, not penetrate, but that is completely different than full immersion constantly. Dave Stewart (54m 41s): Yeah. It’s, Dave McCoy (54m 42s): It’s as far as waterproofness. Dave Stewart (54m 44s): Yep. And what is the, I mean, it’s probably all over the board, but what do you think is a good average person lifespan? They take care of their waiters for a pair of, you know, a set of waiters. How long do they get out of them? Dave McCoy (54m 55s): I think if you, I mean, I’m gonna go out on a limb here, and I think if you were conscious of how you used them, like you chose to walk around to that set of bushes as opposed to go right through it, you turned them inside out after every use So that they would dry So that your delamination wouldn’t take place on the inside or thoughtful about not dropping down to your knees to, you know, land fish and you know, all the things that if you in a perfect world, you wouldn’t do to ’em. Yeah. You could probably get several years out of ’em. I mean, without question. And several years that, you know, 50 plus days a year or more. And the last, this last generation since the swift currents have come out, I’ve been getting, I haven’t gone through waiters anywhere near as fast. Dave McCoy (55m 38s): Like I, I’ve, I’m getting a couple years out of each of my pairs and I don’t take care of mine. Right, absolutely. Do not take care of mine. My garage isn’t heated. Yeah, Dave Stewart (55m 49s): Exactly. Dave McCoy (55m 49s): They stay wet all the time. Yep. Dave Stewart (55m 51s): Nice. Cool. Well, well this is good. I think we’ve got a nice update from you, Dave, on what you have going here. I think maybe, maybe we can get you back on, we’ll talk more down the line about some of the other stuff you have going and go a little bit deeper dive. But before we get out here, give us anything we missed, you wanna give a heads up on anything you have come, we talked about the, your, your spay event a little bit, but anything else do you wanna shed light on here? Dave McCoy (56m 15s): We have, we’ve got some really cool stuff coming over the next six or eight months. I mean, I’m fairly event oriented. I like to engage with the public as much as possible. So we’ve got Travis Johnson coming up in May for a space school. We will have Kaka Grova coming out in either late September, early to mid-October for women’s and co-ed sort of school. And we haven’t really determined what the topic of that’s gonna be. So, and she’s in, you know, she’s a energetic, super excited, just permanently wears a smile on her face personality. That’ll be fun to introduce to this region. Dave McCoy (56m 57s): And found out, she just used to, she used to live in Seattle for a few years, found that out a couple days ago. Sandy River Spay Clay is coming up with Marty and Mia and, and Wet Fly or with Swing The Fly. Dave Stewart (57m 10s): Yep. Swing the Fly. Yep. Dave McCoy (57m 11s): Yep. Zach. So that’s something to look forward to down on Sandy. And there’s spay a Palooza event up north too, so if spa’s on your radar, you’ve got some events coming up in the near future and we’ll have ours in January again next year. Dave Stewart (57m 26s): Okay. That’s, I was gonna ask you that. So January and do you typically have it a certain time just sometime in January? Yeah, Dave McCoy (57m 32s): It’s at the end of the month. It’s, I think it’s the 24th or 25th next year. And we’ve got an Instagram account for that now So that we can sort of keep people a little more publicly updated. It is Seattle Bayla, Seattle underscore Bayla, and then we have Art Walk at the store every two months and wine walk every three months. Yeah, we’ve got a lot going on. Dave Stewart (58m 0s): Oh, and, and, and that’s the art walk is that people come in the store and can look art in the store or, or you’re walking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dave McCoy (58m 7s): We’ve got a lot of really cool art from a lot of people in the sport in the store, and some of it’s for sale. A lot of it’s just to admire and Yeah. So it, it’s worth, it’s worth a visit if you’re, if you’re making it to Seattle and we’re on the side of the city of the airport, so it’s a pretty easy jaunt from the airport too. Dave Stewart (58m 26s): Yep. Perfect. Yeah. Well, I’ll, Dave, I’ll definitely try to hit you up next time and, and be there. I’ll, I’ll give you a heads up and so we can meet up it, it’s been a little while since I think one of the shows we connected with, but yeah, I mean, either way, maybe I can make it up to your spay event next year as well in January. That’s a good time to, to head up there. Gimme an excuse to get back to Seattle. Dave McCoy (58m 45s): Yeah, well, I’d love to see you and we, it’s not like we can’t reach out to one another, so just let me know when you’re coming up. Okay. I’ll let you know if I’m coming down too. Dave Stewart (58m 54s): Awesome. All right, Dave. Well I appreciate the time today. We’ll send everybody out to emerald water anglers.com and, and Oh, hey, one more thing before we get out here. Is the podcast still going? I know you did some episodes, are you still doing episodes out there? Yeah, Dave McCoy (59m 5s): I’ve got one tentatively coming that I’m still working out details on. Believe it’s gonna be Tim Ray. Jeff. Oh, nice. And we’ll be doing it out on the water talking about, oh wow. Rod Design and, and Cool. Just sort of how that company started and where he sees everything now and be doing it while we’re fishing for Sea Run cutthroat probably. So it’ll be, it’ll be a fun one. Dave Stewart (59m 28s): So that’s what’s cool about you, right? You’re making a little different there. So you’re on the water doing some stuff, which is not easy to do, but that’s great. Dave McCoy (59m 34s): No, it’s not. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, they’re longer, you know, a lot of ours are two hours, two and a half, so set it up for a long drive or a long plane ride or something like Dave Stewart (59m 43s): That. What’s the name of the podcast again? Dave McCoy (59m 46s): It is EWA Undercurrent. Yeah, Dave Stewart (59m 48s): Undercurrent. Okay, cool. We’ll put a link to the show notes on that one. We’ll take a look. Yeah, Steve’s or, I mean Tim, Steve, we’ve been working on hopefully getting Steve on ours, but Tim, that would be cool. Tim is one of the biggest, I think, podcast episodes we’ve had over the past year or since, so, but Good. All right, Dave, we’ll definitely appreciate your time today. We’ll be in touch and thanks again. Yeah, Dave McCoy (1h 0m 8s): Dave, thanks for the opportunity buddy. Wish you the best and I’ll talk to you soon. Dave Stewart (1h 0m 14s): Quick call to action for you today. If you get a chance touch base with Dave, you can go to emerald water anglers.com. If you’re passing through Seattle in the area or fishing up north for spay, whatever you’re doing, check in with Dave. Let him know you heard this podcast. And if you get a chance, check out his podcast, that episode with Yvonne Chenard. We’ll also have a link to the one we did as well. If you have a chance, please subscribe to this podcast, follow the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you listen, that would help you assure that next episode gets delivered into your inbox. And we’ve got another good one. The next one In the Bucket, Jeff Liske, who was actually up at Dave McCoy’s, spay Clave, and Jeff is gonna have another episode of In The Bucket. I don’t have that topic for you right now, but it will be good as always. Dave Stewart (1h 0m 57s): So stay tuned and subscribe for that. If you haven’t yet checked out our Missouri River Dryly School yet, you can do that right now. Wetly swing.com/missouri. You could also send me an email, dave@wetlyswing.com and I’ll let you know what’s going on there. We’re putting together an amazing trip for the end of the summer. If you’re interested, get in on that right now. Thanks for stopping In today. Hope you enjoyed this episode. Hope you’re having a great afternoon. If you’re having a spectacular evening or if it’s morning, hope you have a good morning. Talk to you then. 4 (1h 1m 25s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing.com.

755 | Fly Fishing Travel Hacks with Jeff Ditsworth of Pescador on the Fly

fly fishing travel

If you’ve ever tried to sneak in a little fly fishing on a business trip or family vacation, this episode is for you. Jeff Ditsworth of Pescador on the Fly shares his fly fishing travel hacks from 25+ years of experience. We dive into how to pack light, avoid common gear mistakes, and make the most of those bonus fishing hours. Jeff also gives us the lowdown on his G6 packable rod and why he always brings at least two rods on every trip. Whether you’re headed to Montana or Mexico, you’ll walk away with simple tricks to fish more and stress less.


Show Notes with Jeff Ditsworth on Fly Fishing Travel Hacks. Hit play below! 👇🏻

 

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Episode Chapters with Jeff Ditsworth on Fly Fishing Travel Hacks

Pack Light, Fish Smart: Jeff’s Go-To Travel Gear Tips

When Jeff heads out on a trip—whether it’s a business meeting or a beach getaway—he keeps things simple. He skips the bulky gear and focuses on packing light but smart. His favorite hack? Fitting two rods into one El Rey fly rod tube. It takes a little care, but it works!

Here’s what Jeff usually brings on the road:

– 2 travel rods (packed tight in a single tube)
– A small day pack like the Versa Pack for reels, leaders, and fly boxes
– Water shoes or sandals for wet wading
– Optional waterproof lumbar pack for longer outings
– Light layers like packable puff jackets for cold mornings
– Polarized sunglasses (a must!)
– Cheaters for tying tiny flies
– A compact gear setup that fits easily in a carry-on or backpack

And when it comes to where to fish, Jeff loves exploring. He uses Google Maps and apps like TroutRoutes to find fishy-looking water near his hotel or wherever he’s traveling. The best part? Sneaking in a few casts before meetings—or even in a suit jacket when the moment’s right.

fly fishing travel
Photo via: https://www.instagram.com/pescadoronthefly/

Fly Fishing on the Go: Why Jeff Never Leaves Home Without a Rod

Jeff has a simple rule—never fly without your El Rey G6. Whether he’s headed to Mexico, Montana, or Austria, he always packs a travel rod in his carry-on. Why? Because you never know when the water will be calling.

Some of Jeff’s favorite vacation catches:
– 5–10 lb jacks off the beach in Mexico
– Snapper, pompano, and even the occasional tarpon
– Quick casts in Missoula’s Clark Fork River
– And next up—Austria’s hidden trout streams

fly fishing travel
Photo via: https://pescadoronthefly.com/collections/el-rey-g6-the-king

Top 3 Reasons to Travel with a G6 Fly Rod

Jeff shares the big three reasons he always packs his G6 fly rod—and why you should too. It’s not just for the convenience, it’s about being ready anytime, anywhere.

  • Travel Friendly: Fits in carry-ons and backpacks. No more wrestling through airport gates or hiking trails with a long rod case.
  • Backcountry Ready: Hike deep, fish remote water, and always bring a backup. The G6 rides along easily.
  • Always Be Ready: Want to switch from nymphing to dries? Need a streamer rod? Pack two G6 rods and you’re set for anything.

Bonus tip: the biggest mistake is not bringing a rod. Don’t get caught staring at perfect water with nothing to cast.

Quick Travel Tip: Always Call the Local Fly Shop

Before your next trip, give the local fly shop a call. They’ll tell you what flies are working and maybe even tip you off to a secret spot.

Here’s why it’s smart:

  • You get up-to-date info.
  • You might find a great guide.
  • You support the shop when you buy flies or gear.

Trout Unlimited and Tiny Habits That Matter

Jeff shared how his company partnered with Trout Unlimited from the start. Here’s why it matters:

  • TU helps remove dams and restore fish runs.
  • Jeff believes in small acts repeated often.
  • Picking up trash every time you fish really adds up.

You don’t need a big cleanup event to make a difference—just a bag and a habit.

fly fishing travel
Photo via: https://pescadoronthefly.com/

Drift Over Details: A Simple Take on Fly Fishing

Jeff shares one of the biggest debates in fly fishing: match the hatch or perfect the drift? He’s team drift. Jeff tells a funny story about a fly shop worker saying he had to fish a size 24 fly to catch anything. Jeff tied on a size 18 instead—and still caught fish. His point? You don’t always need the perfect fly. Just get a good drift.

Here’s what he believes:

  • The fly doesn’t have to be exact.
  • Fish care more about how the fly moves than how it looks.
  • Don’t overthink it—go simple, focus on the presentation.

As Jeff says, “There’s a lot of ways to catch a fish on a fly. I like all of them.”


You can find Jeff Ditsworth on Instagram @pescadoronthefly.

Facebook at Pescador On the Fly

Visit his website at at pescadoronthefly.com.


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Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below

Episode Transcript
Dave (2s): At times, fly fishing travel can be very challenging. Am I gonna miss the flight? Did my bags get to the next destination? Where’s my Rod? Today’s guest is a world traveler and created a business in fly fishing to help reduce the stress of traveling for fishing. By the end of this episode, you’re gonna have the top most important tips to assure you have less stress and more fun while traveling to your next destination This season, This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. How’s it going? I’m Dave host of the Wet Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid, grew up around a little fly shop and created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts out there. Dave (46s): Jeff Ditsworth, Pescador on the Fly Guru is gonna share what he’s learned in 25 years of traveling, whether that’s for business or with the family. He’s gonna get into a bunch of tips. You’re gonna find out today why and how most rods are broken. This might surprise you on these trips, and it’s not from a fish. What the number one mistake is to avoid when traveling. And then why he thinks match the hatch is, is overrated. We’re gonna get into this today. This is a good discussion. Match the hatch versus not. We’re gonna talk about that. Plus, you’re gonna find out how to get two rods in one Rod tube. If you haven’t thought about this in a while, we’re going to talk about that as well. He’s a master traveler here He is. Dave (1m 27s): Jeff Ditsworth from pescadoronthefly.com. How you doing, Jeff? I’m Jeff (1m 33s): Doing fantastic. How you doing today? Great, Dave (1m 35s): Great. Yeah, I’m excited for this one because travel, whenever I’m thinking about travel, that always gets me fired up. We’re traveling, you know, to a few places this year. We’re gonna be heading up to Alaska, heading to Newfoundland, some other places around the country. And, and we’re gonna be taking on some of your, your rods for sure. Your Rod, maybe rods. We might be be having multiple rods, but you have this six piece packable Rod. You have four piece, you kind of do everything in the fly Rod space. We’re gonna get an update on that today, but we’re also gonna get some tips on traveling while you’re on maybe a business trip or a family vacation. How do you sneak away? So, so first off, how are things going? What’s been going on since we chatted last? Maybe give us folks an up is 2025. What’s an update on Pescador on the fly right now? Jeff (2m 15s): Yeah, man, we’re, we’re right in mid-March, right in the swing of spring sale. So, you know, life is good. We’re, we’re, we’re talking to a ton of anglers that are getting ready for trips and like a lot of spring break people that are grabbing a packable Rod to take with ’em. So, yeah, I mean, all’s well we we’re getting ready to launch a new call it l Hfe V two. Hmm. Which is our mid-level line. We’re getting ready to launch that in April. We’re gonna start rolling those out. So I think right now we’re still doing our, our warehouse clearance sale right now on the L Hfe V one, but the new El Ray G six is out, which I know you’ve seen. Yeah. And we’re just having a ton of fun talking to a ton of anglers and just having a lot of fun with everybody. Jeff (2m 58s): That’s Dave (2m 58s): Awesome. Yeah, I think the, the one I have is the, the six piece, which is amazing because it packs up when you compare it to a four piece, it’s kind of crazy, right? Because the four piece Rod is, I’m not sure the length, but I think yours packs down into like, you know, almost 20 inches, 21 inches. Do you know the length on the, the distance? It’s Jeff (3m 14s): Like 20 inches. I think you have the five weight, so it’s a nine foot five weight and that that tube’s like 21 and a quarter or something like that. That’s Dave (3m 21s): Right. Yeah. And I, and I love the, just the quality, you know, I think even when you grab the tube, you know, you get the tube, everything is kind of high quality, the Rod, the components, everything there. But, but that’s the biggest thing. I think that sticks out. And we’re gonna talk about some travel tips today. You know, if you’re on that trip and you know, which a lot of us are, right? You’re traveling with the family, your own business, how do you sneak away? And, and we’re gonna get into that today. So, so maybe let’s, let’s just talk about that first for you. I mean, do you, do, is this, you know, something that you’ve been doing a while where you’re sneaking away and, and kind of you got some other trip going and you’re, you’re getting a couple hours here or there. How does that look for you? Jeff (3m 55s): Oh, for sure. I mean, I, I think it’s, this is where I find my zen right on the water. This is where I decompress. This is where I relax. And I’ve been notoriously traveling with a fly Rod. I’ve been traveling for business for about 25 years and I’ve been notorious to be bringing a, a fly Rod with me everywhere I go. And that’s, you know, the genesis of how we started the company. It’s just I couldn’t find something that I like fishing nice gear, right? And I’ve, I’ve always been fishing those high end rods and I couldn’t find anything that felt good to cast. So, you know, we went out and figured out if we could make ’em ourselves. So we got that going and I, here we are, man. You Dave (4m 31s): Did it. You did it. What is your kind of gear setup for, you’re, you’re doing this trip, talk about that, not only the Rod, but talk about the Rod, but also the other gear, the bags. Like how do you, how are you packing compact? Do you have this thing where it’s like all fits down into a little, little nap sack or how do you do it? Yeah, Jeff (4m 47s): So you know, every trip’s different, right? So I would say if, if I’m going on a business trip, unless I’m going somewhere ridiculous where I’m gonna need waiters and boots, I’m generally probably not bringing waiters and boots. In the summer it’s a little bit different ’cause you could do a little wet weighting. That’s great. I’ve got, you know, some like water shoes type thing. But when I’m just thinking about like not waiters and boots, if I’m going on a business trip and I’m just gonna go stand next to the river or stand next to a lake or whatever, I’m just, I’m thinking Rod reel, super small pack. Yeah. So oddly enough I’ve actually got the fly Rod tube that you have. Yeah. If you roll your Rod up really, really gently, you can actually get two rods in that tube. Jeff (5m 31s): Oh wow. So little pro tip on the l ray series. Dave (5m 34s): Can you get it with two Rod ca sleeves or is it with the sleeves or? No. Jeff (5m 39s): So basically what would happen is it, I just take the sleeve out of the other tube and I pack ’em in together. Dave (5m 44s): Oh. Together. So you can put two rods in one sleeve. Jeff (5m 47s): We also sell some other packable tubes where you can get like three rods, two or three rods in them. Just, they’re just like a little bit wider. Right. So that’s, that’s just kind of a, just to make it easy to make sure that you’re bringing what you, what you want with you. ’cause I generally bring a couple rods with me, even if it’s just a business trip. But if I can get ’em both in a, in a pretty tight tube, that’s pretty sweet. Dave (6m 8s): That is, that’s right. There is the first tip of the game, you know, I’m kind of thinking about. Right. Okay. That’s a big one because I never thought you could even do that. I mean, but you, you can fit, so in that Rod case, two of your rods, you can get in there and probably putting the handle down the bottom for one and the handle at the top for the other sort of thing. Jeff (6m 23s): Correct. Correct. Like I said, If you, If you pack it carefully, you’ll get ’em in there. And I, I’ve traveled with that one where I got my, my eight and a half foot four weight, and then the nine foot five weight I put ’em in there. And I, you might have an issue in the, in the l ray carbon tube, if you’re bringing the seven weight, it’s got the fighting butt little bit bigger. But again, we do sell kind of like a, it’s a Corda tube. That’s not carbon, but I mean, if you’re just looking for, for something for simplicity, but I mean, they’re, they’re cheap. So it’s just a fun way to go. Yeah. But yeah, I, I like, I like to bring two generally just ’cause you, like, you never know. And I love fishing streamers a lot, so, and I love to do that with like a seven weight or eight weight or something like that. So that’s generally something that I’m, I like to bring, or especially on, maybe I’m going down south and I’m gonna be throwing like a big streamer type thing for bass or that kind of thing. Jeff (7m 10s): That’s, you know, I’m usually using a seven or eight way for that. But generally speaking, I’m going as tight as possible and I wanna make sure it goes in my carry on. I wanna make sure it’s not sticking out. I wanna make sure it’s something that kind of melts into the rest of your luggage, If you will. So you don’t really know, know what’s with you. So generally, you know, I got a very, very small pack. We make one that’s called the Versa Pack and it’s super small and you got your, your fly boxes in there. You got your leaders, your tip it all your, all your gear that you’re generally gonna need in a very, very tight pack. That fish is amazing. So it’s a perfect day pack. So I’m bringing that, I’m bringing a reel, bringing the Rod rods, you know, that kind of thing. Jeff (7m 52s): That’s probably about it. Yeah. There’s a hundred packs on the market and we, we make packs. Everybody makes packs. But If you, you have a pack and you can get your reel or reels in there and a few fly boxes you don’t need to bring, you know, sometimes I’m out on the water and I see a guy that has something that looks like he’s gonna climb Everest on the back. Right. Dave (8m 9s): I Jeff (8m 9s): Know he’s walking 30 feet to his car and that, that cracks me up a little bit. But hey man, two each of their own. Right? Dave (8m 14s): Yeah, definitely. No, I, I know I see those. I, I’ve always been, I think we might talked this on the last one. I’m, I’m old school. I’m like the old guy now, you know, I guess I am old, but it’s, I used to love the vest. Yeah, man. Just the fly fishing vest. I love that thing. And I’ve gone away from it just ’cause you don’t really see ’em. I guess they’re still out there, but I’ve gone to the sling and the slings are cool too, you know, they’re different. But then also I see what you’re talking about. The ones where you got these, I don’t know what you call ’em, but there’s a big pack on the front, big pack on back and it looks weird. Right? It looks weird. And I guess it is comfortable though, I guess If you want all that gear, it, it’s a good thing to hold all your gear, right? Jeff (8m 46s): Yeah, no, I mean I, I like, again, if you’re gonna be bringing in like a bunch of gear, just, you know, make sure you’re comfortable. We make the lumbar pack, the river vault, which is that waterproof pack that we just launched a couple months ago. And I mean, that’s actually not a bad travel pack because it’s not one of those huge packs. Dave (9m 3s): What does that fit, what is the ri river vault? And I’m looking at it now, what do you fit in that waterproof bag? Is that kind of like, you could fit a lot of stuff or is it a little on the smaller side? For me Jeff (9m 11s): It’s a lot, but for other guys it’s probably not enough. I like it because it has the water bottle holder on it and like, if you’re hiking in somewhere, but, so if I’m going somewhere and I have room for that, I’m actually bringing my fly boxes and all the gear inside of that and then I can keep all my reel. Like if I’m bringing two reels to write in there, I can stick, you know, hats, gloves, jackets, you know, whatever inside of that. Then all my fly fishing stuff’s kinda like your go pack, right? That thing’s just ready to go and it actually has straps on it to attach your Rod tube. So it’s, it’s, it’s a pretty cool setup. And I think generally if, If you got room, that’s a great way to go. Just ’cause then you got everything and then you got room for like a lunch or something like that when you’re out in the water. Jeff (9m 56s): But, you know, it all depends. I try to be a minimalist when I’m traveling for this kind of thing because I really don’t need the kitchen sink if I’m just gonna go fish for an hour, you know, at the end of the day twice I wanna bring what I wanna bring, fly box leader, little bit of tbit, few weights, you know, that’s it. Dave (10m 14s): Yeah. Basics because Jeff (10m 15s): I’m not, I don’t wanna focus on that on a business trip or a family vacation. I wanna, you know, I think about when I’m, you know, our kids were younger and we were going on spring break down to like Mexico or something like that. I’m an early riser, so generally speaking, you know, If you go to a all-inclusive resort south of Cancun or whatever, the beach in the morning is pretty darn empty. And generally speaking, the water’s not rolling crazy yet. The wind hasn’t picked up yet down in there. So I would probably walk the beach by myself listening to a podcast or whatever, or just listening to the ocean and just walk in there with an eight weight or a seven weight just looking for anything. And I’m, you know, you’re casting this stuff, you could, you could find all kinds of stuff doing that in the morning. Jeff (10m 58s): So that’s my, you know, when I’m doing a family vacation kind of thing. And that’s my me time. ’cause the family’s still asleep. So Dave (11m 5s): That’s another good tip. Right? You’re on the family vacation now. Not the business trip, but the family vacation. Yeah. So one big one would be, yeah, you gotta find your time. So the mornings are a good time. And actually that’s the same for me too. The family a lot of times sleeps in, get out there in the morning, you Jeff (11m 18s): Know, generally speaking. And I, and I think for those beach vacations, that’s when the beach isn’t crazy busy because the last thing you want to do is be swinging a salt water fly when there’s 400 people standing behind you on a beach. Right. That’s a bad recipe. Dave (11m 30s): Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. And, and then on the river vault, which I love, I mean this thing’s, we’ll, we’ll put a link in the show notes to this on that. Can you get a net? I see in one of your photos there’s a net. Does that slide in between or is there like a holder for the net on that? Yep, Jeff (11m 42s): Little holster on the back for the net. Dave (11m 43s): Oh, cool. There is, yep. Amazing. Okay, so I, I’m looking at it now. So yeah, you can pretty much get everything. So this is something, yeah, we’re gonna, we’re gonna have to follow up because I haven’t seen this thing in detail. So this looks like an amazing pack. And it’s waterproof, so that’s another big thing. A hundred percent waterproof. Jeff (11m 58s): Exactly. It’s, you know, our business model going direct to the angler. We can bring a pretty incredible price on this too. So If you look at some other similar packs in the market, we’re coming in way lower on that, which is pretty fun. So great, great value for the anglers. Dave (12m 11s): Perfect. So staying on the gear, so we’ve got basically now the pack, you know, the basics to get in there, the fly box, the Rod, anything else on the travel stuff that you’re, when you’re thinking about this, that you’re, you have that’s connected to all this Jeff (12m 25s): Seasonality? I mean, obviously it depends, like if you’re heading up in the mountains in the winter or whatever, you gotta be dressing with some, some extra clothes. So I love those little kinda like puff jackets from Patagonia. It’s just what I own right now. And they, they pack up so tight and a little package and you can just smash those things into your, into your luggage. So making sure you’re warm is obviously super important. Make sure you got a good spot for your, your polarized sunglasses. ’cause that’s, that’s kind of a must travel for me anyway. I think for most, most people. Definitely. And then, you know, for, you mentioned being old earlier, now I gotta bring cheaters with me. Yeah. So I can tie my, tie my 20 like size 20 flies on, otherwise I’m in trouble. Yeah, Dave (13m 3s): That’s right. Yeah. You got your cheaters. Okay. So that, and that’s pretty much, I mean, I guess that’s the idea, is that going minimalist, right? Like you don’t need Yeah, no waiters, no boots. Jeff (13m 12s): You don’t need everything. And again, you’re not gonna go out and on the water for 12 hours a day for five days in a row. This is bonus time, man. And you don’t need all that stuff. Just bring a good assortment of flies. Have Dave (13m 22s): You ever been out there in a suit fishing? I’m just, this is kinda a random que you know, but is that you? Jeff (13m 27s): Oddly enough, I, I think I do remember bringing some guys out for drinks somewhere and there was a really cool looking pond in the parking lot and I had stuff in the back of my rental car. Nice. So we, we did a, we did a quick impromptu fly casting lesson and caught a few bass at a place before, so Yep. Obviously there you go. I’ve done that. We wear a lot less, less ties than we used to 20 years ago, but, right. But yeah, I’ve done it, man. Yep. Dave (13m 49s): So you’ve done it. Awesome. So you’ve done the suit. That’s perfect. Okay. But, but that’s it. Well let’s go on that. So you talk about the pond in the back. So how do you go about, you’re going to a new place, you know, what’s your strategy to figure out where you’re gonna be fishing? You know, what, what do you do there? Well, Jeff (14m 1s): So it’s fun ’cause a lot of the places I would go, I would be going like repeatedly. For example, I used to, I used to work for a company that was out in, out in Connecticut like Hartford, Connecticut. So you just, you go online, do a little bit of research and you find out that you got the Farmington River right there that, you know, if you’re from there, you might’ve just went you or something like that a little bit. But I mean, there are trout in the thing and you know, it’s, it’s, they’ll, they’ll eat. So I would just bring my gear with me and slip out in the morning before, before meetings or after the deal. So I think now with, you know, there’s, there’s some pretty sweet apps that can help you, help you find, and I’m, I’m not an expert of these, but I’ve just, I’ve talked to a handful of these guys that are building these apps that, that help, you know, find, find good, good places and give good feedback on, you know, what to fish for. Jeff (14m 48s): But I mean, Google Maps does so much for you because you can say, okay, here’s my hotel, or you know, just the internet. There’s plenty of research out there. Dave (14m 56s): Yeah, there is, there’s lots. Yeah, there’s tons of resources. And one thing that we’ve been utilizing a lot is trout routes. I think that’s, you know, there’s a couple of great mappings, onyx, you know. Yeah. But just having the land, the land ownership stuff is also key. That’s Jeff (15m 8s): A great app. And I think I, I haven’t used it a ton, but I’ve talked to a lot of guys that love it. And yeah, I think that’s a really good tip in of itself too. Just do a little bit of research beforehand. And I mean, half of like, when you go to a new place and you’re gonna explore brand new water, I mean, that’s kind of a big chunk of the fun to me. Like I wanna have a good chance of success. And I think once you fly fish long enough, you kind of see the area, you think about it, you’re like, yeah, that looks pretty fishy. I I’m pretty sure I can get into that. Yeah. Dave (15m 37s): Anywhere. I think that’s what’s cool about it is that, and we’ve done the talked about this on recent episodes with some of the team USA stuff. Is that, I mean, yeah. Anywhere, you know, you can these days catch fish anywhere. Right? For sure. Like you said, whether it’s a pond of, you know, warm water, fish, whatever. I did want to give a shout out. We had a episode, it was episode 4 24, the French Fly Fisherman. So we talked about the Farmington River. We have a whole episode on that. And nice Antoine, he’s the French fly fisherman. He’s, we talked to Euro Nipping and stuff like that. But yeah, I think the Farmington is, is a, definitely a destination out there for sure. Jeff (16m 8s): Yeah. I mean I would, I would catch fish every time I was there, so it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s awesome. Dave (16m 14s): Pescador on the fly offers a full range of fly fishing gear for any angler at any budget with premium rods delivered directly to you. The L ray G six is the most packable high performance fly Rod on the market, performing like a four piece Rod, but with unmatched portability in six pieces. And you can get 10% off your next order right now If you use the code wet fly swing at pescador on the fly dot com. Never fly without your G six. Discover the L race series and more at pescador on the fly dot com. Well, what about on, so we’re talking now, we’re getting into the vacation. What are a couple of trips or vacations you think you’ve done in the past maybe that have been either business or, or family that have really worked out well for this? Dave (16m 56s): Is there, and other than the Farmington? You Jeff (16m 57s): Know, I, I’ve got a bunch of ’em. Yeah. Just ’cause I’ve, I’ve been bringing a fly Rod with me everywhere I go, you know, with our, our new L ray series. Like, I kinda laugh about it ’cause like it’s a tongue in cheek tagline, but I always say never fly without your G six because I never go somewhere without one anymore. It’s been pretty fun. I would say that probably some of the coolest ones have been those little beach trips down in Mexico or even Florida or if you’re, you’re in the Keys or whatever, but Mexico and Riviera May area Cancun or whatever. I’ve gotten into five to 10 pound jacks. Hmm. Just randomly cruising the beach, Pompano bonefish snapper, you whatever. But just out there cruising by myself and looking for tails and just see seeing something and throwing a little shrimp fly right in front of ’em. Jeff (17m 44s): And you know, it’s on. I’ve, I’ve had some shots at some decent tarpon really Dave (17m 48s): Off the beach. Jeff (17m 49s): Yeah. It is just you, you never know what you’re gonna find down there. ’cause those, this is just a very fishy area and especially when there’s nobody pounding on the water. This, this stuff kind of comes in and is, is cruising a little bit. So I’ve caught some pretty cool fish just doing that like totally by myself out there. Plenty of, you know, trout situations too. Like our daughter lives in Missoula, Montana, so we go out there a lot and you know, we, we generally stay at a double tree, which is right on the Clark Fork River. And every day I’m out a couple times for an hour just casting a little bit out there. It’s super, super nice. I do have a couple trips this summer that, that should be interesting. So my wife’s got a big birthday and we’re actually gonna go to Austria. Jeff (18m 30s): Oh wow. So I’m doing some research now to figure out exactly as we’re cruising through Austria. ’cause there’s some ridiculously good fly fishing over there. So Right. Austria, Dave (18m 40s): I’m Jeff (18m 40s): Super excited to do that and like talk about, like, I don’t want to pack on a fly fishing trip on my wife’s birthday trip. Right. Yeah. So you gotta be sensitive to that. So, you know, l ray G six will be in there and there’ll be two of ’em with me and there’ll be opportunities. I just dunno exactly where they, when they are or where they are. But I’ll definitely fish. Dave (18m 57s): Amazing. Then there’s a good example. Yeah. You’re going international and you can easily, you know, have issues with the rods, the, you’re gonna throw ’em in your pack and nobody will even know they’re there. Right. Jeff (19m 6s): It’s kind of strange. So after the first podcast episode we, we recorded together, I got a call from a guy who listened to the episode and he just got back from The Bahamas and he had his, his Rod case that he always carries on with his four piece rods. And he said that the airline would not let him carry it on. Right. And I’ve flown the four piece rods all over the place and I’ve never had an airline tell me I couldn’t do it. But I’ve talked to probably a dozen people in the last 12 months that have said some random international thing. Like, oh, even Mexico was one of them on the list too. They said, yeah, you’re, you’re not, you’re not carrying that on. Dave (19m 43s): I heard that. Yeah. Jeff (19m 44s): And I’ve never encountered it, but I think it’s, it’s starting to become real, especially when you get international that you know, these, these aren’t our rules anymore and they make their own rules and the flight attendants or the gate agents can make their own rules too. They’re like, nah, I don’t like that thing. He, he said that they checked his bag and they lost it. Wow. Which is almost impressive that they lost it from the gate to the plane. But you know, what, what are you gonna do? And he said he, he fished with, you know, a couple rods from the lodge that were just completely beneath his level of rods for three days until they, they brought it over to the lodge. And so he, he picked up a couple travel rods, just says, listen, I’m, I’m gonna have these things in my carry on every single one of these trips from now on. Dave (20m 25s): That’s it. I think that that’s probably the biggest tip of, of, you know, today is that, and I’ve heard that too, that I think Canada, I think I’ve heard some people having issues with that as well. So, so yeah, you, you can pretty much just avoid all that by putting your G six, the six piece along with your reel and everything really. Your whole thing could go into your, your pack. You know, nobody even know you’re fly fishing. Right. Jeff (20m 46s): No, for sure. Yeah. I mean I, I’ve never checked flies before, even though, you know, every once in a while I have people ask me if they’ll allow you to take a tarp and fly on and I’ve never had an issue, but, you know. Oh Dave (20m 56s): Yeah. Yeah. How does That work when you’re on the, so are you bringing your flies on the carry-on? Jeff (21m 0s): I generally do. Yeah. I think most people do. ’cause I mean, you start looking at some of those fly boxes and you start adding up your investment in those things and all of a sudden you’re like, damn, that’s a chunk of chunk of money. I’d prefer not to have that in my checked bag that may or may not get rifled through. Dave (21m 15s): Oh, exactly. So have you ever had any issues with that one, with the carry-on the flies when they see the flies and like, hey, this is a weapon sort of thing? Jeff (21m 21s): No, I’ve had a few TSA agents look at me kind of sideways every once in a while and then you give a little, little bit of education and usually they smile and I think most of ’em have seen it before. I like, again, I’ve never had an issue, but you never know these days. But I, I generally carry ’em on. Dave (21m 36s): Yeah, you carry ’em on. Okay. Well and before we get to this, I wanna ask you some TSA kind of tips or whatever, but Austria, so I guess this, we’re talking Alps, right? Are you thinking you might not be able to get out to the big, you know, on your trip, but that’s what I think it’s known for. Is that something you’re looking into? Jeff (21m 51s): We are gonna fish one day, so we’re gonna go out and get a guide and just go out for, for one day. So on a trip like that I’m planning on like, you know, borrowing waiters from the guide versus bringing my own to travel on trains and planes and all that stuff all through Europe. But that’s my plan. So it’s gonna be Rod reel, handful of flies, basically everything I would need to be able to catch fish on my own Yep. Without waiting. Right. And then we’ll get into it and I’ll, I’ll fish the same rods obviously out there ’cause I’ve fished these G six all over the place and you, you can’t even tell the difference between that and a four section Rod. So they’re, they’re great. So I don’t have an issue with that. Dave (22m 29s): And is that mainly because the technology, and that’s what I’ve noticed too, because I’ve got the six piece and Yeah, you can’t tell the difference at all is it, has the tech just what’s changed? Because we’ve talked about that before on here, like the history, just the ferals. I think one of the greens invented the feral back in the day. Right. But talk about that. Why is the six piece now at the same level as a four piece? Jeff (22m 48s): I’d go out there and say not all six pieces are at that level. Yeah. Dave (22m 51s): Right. Jeff (22m 52s): Gotcha. And so our recent gear review and Trout magazine, they just said, Hey, this is different than what was out there before. So I think it’s better blanks, but it’s also better ferals. I would also say we’ve, we’ve taken the investment, we’ve gone a little bit further than the other companies have in the past because most companies in the past have never focused on it. So when they’re building these rods that are building ’em with subpar components, from what I’ve seen, and that’s the exact thing I felt when I was using these packable rods from yesteryear, If you will, they were used with entry level components because they didn’t wanna put a lot of money into it because it wasn’t a ridiculously popular thing. Jeff (23m 32s): Right? Yeah. So I kind of flipped it on its head and said, listen, I wanna invest and put the best blank, the best ferals the best, you know, guides and really just do this right in a broad factory that’s consistently making thousand dollar fly rods from the big brands. And you know, by going directly to the angler, we’re gonna, we’re gonna bring this to the market at five, 600 bucks. So it’s really intentionally building a better packable fly Rod is I think why it’s different versus, well I don’t know how, if this is gonna be a tiny section of their sales, they’re not gonna invest the money into making it great. We went the opposite direction and I told you earlier Yeah. Jeff (24m 13s): That as far as six section four section rods go, we probably sell about an equal amount because you know, you get out there and I’m gonna go to Montana at the end of of April and I’m gonna be bringing four section rods with me. I’m gonna be bringing six section rods too, just kind of for backup. So if I’m gonna fish for three days in a row, I’m probably just gonna bring the four section rods. They’re easy to travel with when you’re bringing ’em all together. But I’m a backup Rod guy. So like if I wanna bring a backup Rod with me, generally speaking, I’m, I’m bringing a six section. Dave (24m 43s): Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That’s the thing that, so that’s, I’m glad you made that point is that you’re not just the, the six piece, six section guy. You’ve got the four piece and is that, are those the main, I mean, ’cause remember when there used to be the three piece too, and there’s obviously two pieces, but are there any three pieces out there still? I Jeff (24m 59s): Don’t know if there’s three piece anymore. There’s a, there’s a few two piece. And I actually talked to a guy the other day that was, was like, listen man, I take my Rod, I fish two piece rods, I take it from my truck and I go to the river and I fish. He’s like, I don’t need a six section Rod. And I, and I, I said, I’m not gonna debate you on that one, man. You, you sound like you’re set, you got, you got all your gear that works perfect for you. Dave (25m 20s): Exactly. Jeff (25m 21s): I think, you know, 20 years ago a two section Rod was, was way better than a four section Rod. Right. But I think as technology has made the pharaohs better and the blanks better and the production better, a four section Rod is pretty darn comparable to a two section Rod. You know, and I don’t make two section rods. I have a lot of guys kind of complain about that, but it’s like, hey, there’s other guys making good two section rods. That’s not my niche. I’m not all things. No. Dave (25m 46s): Right. And that’s such a small niche. I mean, I would say in the fly fishing industry of people who want the two section, I would guess it’s like 10% or less. Right? Jeff (25m 55s): It’s limited. And I think a lot of it is just based on, you know, what they’re used to and everything. And there’s nothing wrong with that. I just, I think for, for a fly Rod company to make a two section Rod, the, the transportation costs to get it from the factory to their warehouse is way higher. The shipping cost is way higher, so you get one, you’re gonna pay for it. And I really don’t think you’re gonna see too much of a difference between that and a, and a really nice four section Rod. But I mean, if, If you like two section rods, man, fish ’em, I’m all for it. Dave (26m 24s): Nice. Well, as we’re talking about the rods, I want to, we’re gonna be having, and we’ll put a link out to a video we’re gonna do, we’re, we’re kind of kicking off our YouTube channel and it’s been kind of fun. So we’re gonna be doing a review, well, it’s more an unboxing of, you know, just so people can see what this Rod looks like. So we’ll put a link in the show notes to that video. But in that, I wanna talk about some, you know, some of the benefits. So what would be a top like maybe three benefits of that G six, the six piece Rod that you would say would be top obviously maybe just what, what would you say if I was going to, you know, talk about those, what would those three be? Jeff (26m 57s): I’d say the, the, the easy transportation of it to get it to and from where you’re going and really not even know it. So, you know, If you, if you’re gonna be hiking someplace and you’re throwing all your gear in a backpack, not being the guy that’s like ducking underneath trees the entire time. Like, it, it’s, it’s just way more convenient for transportation. Dave (27m 18s): Oh. So that’s another one. I’m glad you went down this ’cause I wasn’t thinking about that, but, so you’ve got the easy transport really, which is broad flying, but also yeah, the backpacking. I mean, I remember those days with the four piece or even the two piece. I remember doing that too, where we’re backpacking in and you’re ducking under branches and getting caught and falling down. So that’s one big, another big thing. So the backpacking is another part of this? Yeah, Jeff (27m 39s): I mean I, I’m, I’m gonna nail with nail it with three things. It’s the flying, the backpacking, and then the backup Rod is what I do. And, and like the backup Rod is two different things. Right? So I think about bringing a backup Rod when I’m actually flying somewhere with the specific purpose of fly fishing. I mean, I don’t break a lot of rods, but I know some people that generally, you know, whether it be a car door or God forbid the, the infamous ceiling fan down in, down in the Oh wow. In the flats. That’s the one that gets people a decent amount. Oh Dave (28m 6s): Dang. That’s bad. Jeff (28m 7s): I talked to just about everybody that breaks a Rod from our company, so I hear a lot of stories. Yeah. But it’s yeah, cardo and, and ceiling fans prior to the top two. Oh Dave (28m 14s): Man, that’s crazy. Jeff (28m 15s): Fallings another one too. It’s, it’s just kind of, you never know what’s gonna happen, but having that backup Rod, but think about the combination of a backup Rod and then the backpacking Rod. So every once in a while you’re gonna go out and you’re gonna hike a mile or two to get to some pretty sweet water and you know, you’re, you’re gonna set up your Rod at the truck and you’re gonna, you’re gonna be hiking in and you’re walking there with your Rod and that’s all good. Well, I’m not gonna hike two miles with one Rod because if something happens, or think about it this way, you get out there in the water, you just hike two miles, you’re nipping, you’re doing your normal, normal routine, and then all of a sudden you’re looking around and there’s a ridiculous hatch and you wanna switch over and do dry fly. Well, I mean, you can clearly do that with a, with normal, you know, nine foot, five weight, six weight, whatever you want. Jeff (29m 1s): I love dry fly fishing with an eight and a half foot four weight. So think about l ray, G six in the tube attached to the pack. I’ve got a dry fly Rod with me at all times. I can set both up while I’m back there and then I can nm or I can go to the dry fly Rod. Or like I mentioned earlier, with me being kind of a streamer nut, I’m not walking two miles into trout territory without a streamer Rod. So I’m gonna have my seven way with me and it’s gonna be super compact. Then I’m even gonna know I’m gonna have it and all of a sudden I’m gonna find this new water that has this giant pool and I’m gonna wanna swing a giant streamer through this thing and find the biggest fish in the water. So I, I’m generally bringing more than one Rod out there on those hikes. Jeff (29m 41s): You know what I mean? Yeah. Dave (29m 42s): What about kind of common mistakes if people make, when they’re trying to put together one of these either family vacation or business trip, you know, where you do a fishing trip along the way? Jeff (29m 52s): I think the biggest mistake is not bringing a fly Rod. Yeah. And honestly, that, that’s huge because how many of us are like, ah, it’s a pain. I’m, I’m not gonna do it. Right? Yep. And then you get there and you look out there and you find this water and you instantly regret it. Yeah. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve done that, but never again. Right. So not bringing a Rod with you on these trips, I think is probably the biggest mistake. I’d say that the second biggest mistake that I think of is not really having all your stuff organized. I mean, it’s kinda like the, the old adage that, you know, I’m gonna start running. So the first thing you do is you’re gonna set out your clothes in the morning and make sure that my clothes and shoes are ready to go. Jeff (30m 34s): So I’m gonna stumble into ’em and I’m not gonna forget, just have your little go pack ready to go that’s got your fly box, your general assortment of flies and yeah, you, you may swap out flies. ’cause okay, this, this is a trip. Like say for example, I’m gonna go down to, to Phoenix for either a family trip or like a little business trip. Well, Phoenix is not known for their fly fishing, but I’ve caught plenty of bass and ponds around Phoenix and they’re also known for these canals that have ridiculously nice carp. So having your carp fly box, you know, and be like, all right, I’m going to Phoenix. I’m bringing carp gear. And like that is so fun. I don’t know that I’m kind of a, a carp nerd. Like I Oh nice. Jeff (31m 14s): Love fly fishing for carp. There’s such a blast. And they’re almost everywhere. So do a little research. There’s nerds like me that’ll will punch you in the right direction if they know the area. Dave (31m 24s): There you go. Okay. So, and again, I love to get a shout out on the podcast. So episode 3 71, urban Carp on the Fly with, with Chris Bearer. He’s from one of the fly shops out there in, in Phoenix. So we’ll put that link out there. Good. So organize is another big thing of it, but I love the number one mistake. Yeah. Just going out and thinking you’re not gonna need your Rod. And then you get there and you’re like, oh dang. Jeff (31m 45s): Yep. Dave (31m 45s): Good. Okay. And then like trips wise, you’ve talked about a couple of ’em. I mean, I think some of the big things are, yeah, reducing the size. Anything else on the travel stuff, the travel gear, the travel tips that you would give people just to, you know, a little nugget to help ’em on that next trip? Jeff (32m 1s): I would probably check local before you go out. Like, I’ve called fly shops all the time and generally I’ll come in and pick up some flies or a shirt or a hat or something like that as a thank you for the information. I mean, I always, I always, I, I had this debate, which is kind of funny all the time where since we’re direct to the angler and we don’t sell through the fly shops, I have a lot of people think I’m anti fly shop, but oh right. I spend a lot of money in fly shops on guides and just, just random other gear. I love fly shops and always will. So I, I think they’re a great source of information and I don’t think it’s cool to just like, use ’em for their information and not buy anything from ’em. So I think think if you’re going to someplace that actually has fly shops and not every place does, that’s a great place to check for a little bit of intel. Jeff (32m 46s): And you might get some good tips. And I would also say that if, if there’s a place that you’re traveling to for business a lot that’s kind of like a trout area where you, you may have a fly shop, I would 100% go in there and hire a guide for an afternoon or something like that and just get to know these guys a little bit. Support ’em, you’re gonna learn something. I don’t care how good of an angler you are, you’re gonna learn something just about every time you hire somebody to, to take you out. Maybe you find a new spot or two, you know, whatever it is, that’s gold. If you’re gonna be traveling to a place three, four times a year and then, you know, you can go out and DIY all on your own after that. But that’s, that’s I think pretty, a huge tip is that there’s some great local intel out there for some guys. Jeff (33m 29s): And you’re probably gonna meet, meet somebody. Pretty cool. Dave (33m 34s): Not many companies are building their own gear these days, but Intrepid Camp Gear is changing that based in Boulder, Colorado Intrepid designs and manufactures some of the most rugged, technically advanced rooftop tents and aluminum cargo cases on the market. Their gear is built in-house with patented designs that stand up to the elements and the miles. Whether you’re chasing elk deep in the back country hunting for fresh powder or heading out for your next fly fishing trip. And Trepid gives you the confidence to go further. 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Dave (34m 59s): So they’re made to last season after season. You can check out the full swift current lineup right now@wetflyswing.com slash swift current or stop by your local shop. That’s Swift current, S-W-I-F-T-C-U-R-R-E-N-T wetly swing.com/swift current. Go check it out now. Well let, let’s start to take it out here slowly with our, this is kind of our conservation shout out. We always love giving a shout out to that. And as we go, we might have some other random tips that pop up here. But we’ve got, and I, and I know you know Kirk, Kirk Dieter, right? With Tu Yeah. Are, yeah, you’re familiar. We have him coming up. Dave (35m 39s): We’ve been talking and we’re gonna have a podcast episode coming up with him soon. I’m excited ’cause his name has been on my list for a long time. But maybe talk about that real quick on Kirk, maybe, maybe this is higher level stuff, but do you know his role, what’s his connection to Trout Unlimited and then what your thoughts are on Tu? ’cause you have a connection there with them, right? Jeff (35m 56s): Yeah, for sure. So he’s their, you know, chief editor Oh, okay. Of the Trout magazine and he’s just, he’s really involved. He’s in, you know, advertising, that type of thing. And like before we spent any money on advertising, the very first money we spent was joining Tu as a business member and then buying a ridiculously tiny ad in Trout magazine. The very first thing we did, I contacted these guys and said, listen, I’m gonna give a portion of of our sales to Trout Unlimited because you’re doing what I would love to do and I don’t see any reason for me to try to do something extra. I’m just gonna support them. So from the beginning of our inception, that’s been something we’ve been doing and you know, we, we’ve been with him ever since, Kirk and I, he, he’s a great dude. Jeff (36m 37s): He, he actually just did a, did a review of the, the G six. Oh nice. And yeah, I think so when you talk to him, he’ll probably have some familiarity, but yeah, great guy. Ridiculously knowledgeable. Yeah, Dave (36m 51s): That’s perfect. We’ll get a link out there to that review. I haven’t seen that yet, so I’m excited to get that in. Oh, cool. So, and what would be the, if, if we have Kirk on what would be, obviously there’s so many things we could talk to him about. What would be one thing you would love to hear him go deeper into? Jeff (37m 5s): I think there’s, there’s a handful of things. I mean obviously those, those guys are doing great work to promote some cool stuff. They’ve been doing a bunch of work and not, not as the magazine, but as Tr Unlimited the organization. He’s obviously got a lot of involvement in it. We’ve been kind of spearheading some of those dam removals out west. Dave (37m 21s): Oh, that’s right. Which Jeff (37m 22s): Is pretty cool. And I, I think you’re starting to see some, some salmon enter some places that haven’t, haven’t been there in 50 years, which is kind of cool to see it working. They do some pretty cool work behind the scenes. I think as far as conservation goes, probably the biggest thing we did is probably about five years ago we started building stream cleanup bags in partnership with Trodden Unlimited. So everybody that buys a combo from us, we put one in free and then coincidentally, we, we have it on our website, I have the code for a free one. So If you just want to get a a trout hero bag, there’s a code on it for a free one, just pay shipping. But we send out thousands of those to Trout Unlimited events and that kind of thing at our cost just to promote stream cleanup. Jeff (38m 4s): And this wasn’t necessarily in partnership with him, but it was in partnership with Trout Unlimited. I’m a big believer in very, very small things repeated over time, ended up to huge results. I love big stream cleanups. Those are great. But I think that if every single time an angler goes out on the water and brings back a bag of trash, that impact to cleanup of our beautiful waterways is gonna be way bigger than these one or two time a year big stream cleanups. Every single time we’re out, out, bring out a bag of trash. And it’s sad, but you can do it because there’s that much trash out there. Right. So I promote that pretty heavily just ’cause we’re all there. Jeff (38m 46s): We all love the outdoors and we all want to try to make a little bit of difference and it, it takes like no effort. Love Dave (38m 51s): That. Love that. Yeah. I, one of Atomic Habits, James Clear that book is one that I definitely, I’m glad you mentioned the habits. Yep. ’cause that daily habit stuff is real. Jeff (39m 1s): We had, we had James out, I met him. Oh, you did? Last year. Oh wow. Super good dude. Not for this business. A different business I’m involved in, but Oh yeah, a hundred percent awesome guy. Great book. I, I highly recommend everybody listening like picks that one up and does a listen or reads it. It’s great. Great stuff. Dave (39m 18s): Amazing. Okay. And so a couple random ones here and then we, we’ll take it out on this one today. So first random one of the days. So phishing, you know, it sounds like you’re just like me and a lot of us listening now, we’re just kind of, fishing is our thing right. Fly fishing. But if, if fly fishing disappeared, how would you fill that space? What, what would you be doing with your time? Jeff (39m 39s): You know, honestly, I’d probably do, I have to have something on the water. Right? Right. So I’d, I’d probably become like a, like a kayaker of some sort of, all of a sudden I couldn’t fly fish. Right. You know what Dave (39m 48s): I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Would that be, would that be like extreme kayaking, like whitewater, would that be more like river kayaking or, or Jeff (39m 55s): I would say more peaceful. More peaceful. I, I, we, we have a, we have one of those hydro rowers that’s kinda like a Peloton Oh yeah. For rowing. Sure. And every morning I hit that thing and I just do what, what they call like a journey row. And all it is is like a scenic pretty place. And it’s just like, you like rowing. And so it’s a great little exercise, full body workout. But, but also I’m sitting there looking at water, which makes me, makes me happy. That’s cool. For some reason. So like, if I had to pick something that I was gonna do, I’d probably need it to have something to do with water. I have other hobbies. I play a ton of tennis, but that doesn’t replace my water. Dave (40m 29s): Have you tried pickleball yet? Jeff (40m 31s): You know, it’s funny, every time I mention tennis, somebody always brings up pickleball. That’s right. And I’ve tried it. Yeah. But it’s not my thing. Dave (40m 37s): Yeah. I, I saw it just today. I was going by a place that I’ve been by many times and it used to be like a mark, a big store, and I’m like, wow, it’s a pickleball arena now. I’m like, wow, this, this is really blowing up. Jeff (40m 47s): It’s a ridiculously fun sport. And it’s, you know, I have so many buddies that do it and have tons of fun and it’s a good social thing and get a little bit of a workout and, you know, I’ve, I’ve even had some of our tennis brother in like, stop playing tennis and jump over and play pickleball full time and Yeah. Dave (41m 3s): Yeah. That’s me. Jeff (41m 4s): It’s cool. I I think it’s like one of those things where I’m pretty competitive at tennis right now. And as I get older, I would imagine I’m probably gonna play a little bit more pickleball. Yeah. Dave (41m 13s): That’s The funny thing. Jeff (41m 14s): Just ’cause it’s a, it’s a cool social thing, but yeah, I’m, I’m mainly mainly tennis. Yeah. Dave (41m 18s): Pickleball. Yeah, it is kind of the thing. It’s, it’s a, yeah, it’ll be interesting to see. Is it a fad or is it something that that sticks around? I feel like for me, ping pong was my sport, or not my sport, but ping pong I loved, I was, I’m pretty good at ping pong. Yeah, man. I think ping pong and tennis come together and that’s pickleball. I feel like it’s very similar. Jeff (41m 36s): It’s pretty close. Yeah. Pretty close. Yeah. All of ’em are good man. Yeah, Dave (41m 40s): They’re all good. Okay. And what about, so we, you know, again, this question, fly fishing wisdom, you know, things that you hear out there. Any, anything you think you’ve heard, like there’s fly fishing that’s kind of accepted that you maybe disagree with a little bit? Jeff (41m 54s): I don’t know the, now we’re gonna get in into fly fishing lore and you’re gonna get me Dave (41m 58s): Yeah. These are, these are random. Jeff (41m 60s): You’re gonna get people to, to hate on me a little bit. No, I’m just kidding. So, so you go back and look at the, the dawn of, of fly fishing in one of the biggest debates ever. Is it matching the hatch or is it the perfect drift? Dave (42m 11s): Ooh, yeah. Jeff (42m 12s): I’m probably of the school. It’s the perfect drift. Dave (42m 15s): Yeah. It’s the perfect drift. Right. Jeff (42m 16s): But here’s a quick story. So I had, I had a business trip in, in Colorado two years ago, and I flew out on a Sunday, drove up in the mountains and I, I went into a fly shop real quick and I was just gonna grab a few things and see what’s going on. And I get in there and I’m talking to, to one of the kids in the shop and I’m like, all right, I’m gonna go out and fish this. And he’s like, okay. Yep. All I gotta tell you is that if you’re not fishing a size 22 or a size 24, you’re not gonna catch anything. Right. And I laughed a little bit. I was like, well, I’m probably gonna fish in 18 for two reasons, dude. I can’t even tie on a 24 anymore. I, I, I, I don’t know what it is. I can’t hardly see it, even if I have my cheaters, like I would need better binoculars or something like that to be able to execute that. Jeff (43m 1s): So I said, I appreciate your advice and I’m not disagreeing that you wouldn’t catch fish on this catch fish, but I have a feeling I can drift a fly good enough to be able to catch fish on an 18. And I did. And it was just one of those like funny little, little things. Oh yeah. But I think having a fly that looks very, very similar versus perfect. You gotta have the right shape and the right, right. Relative size of the insects that are hatching, you know, Dave (43m 24s): But it’s more, it’s more that Dr I kind of agree. It’s, yeah. Jeff (43m 28s): Yeah. And, and it’s, you know, I, I’ve had so many fun debates over a beer with people on that, and, you know, if that’s your, your feeling, you know, two weeks, your own man, it’s all good. I think if you’re matching the hatch. Exactly. I don’t disagree. You’re gonna have success. I don’t think you have to work that hard, though. I think sometimes in the fly fishing world, we overcomplicate things and I think just going simple and working on that, that perfect drift. I think you’re gonna get hookups. I don’t think the, the amount of hookups you get from that philosophy versus the absolute meticulous perfect fly, I don’t think you’re gonna notice any difference for most of us, you know, called mere mortals. Dave (44m 6s): Love that. I, I love that wisdom there because that’s the perfect one. Really think about it, the matching the hatches is just the epitome of fly fishing, right? The, the dry fly fishermen on the water, you know, the matching the hatch. And, and it’s amazing because yeah, that’s the cool thing about fly fishing is you can go as deep and nerdy as you want. If you wanna tie a size 28 and get into that, like go for it. That’s awesome. But Yep. Yep. But at the same time, you know, we have, yeah, Josh Miller was just on team USA, he’s, he’s coached the youth team into the last couple of world championships and he’s just this all star out in pa and he was saying that on that episode, like, man, and you can just see it with euro. You don’t have to look at the Nu Iss, the best example. Those things are pretty much as Right as, as basically not matching the hatches possible. Dave (44m 48s): And they work better than anything. Yeah. Jeff (44m 50s): They look like something that, you know, maybe they look like something, I don’t know, but like a fish sees it and it eats it. So who am I gonna argue? Right? Dave (44m 57s): Yeah. So that, that reinforces your, your case there. So that’s good. I’m glad we went down that road. It’s always good to get a little, and that’s actually a good headline on a, you know, a, a video or a title, right? Like match the hatch. Yeah. Or right to get that going. So If you Jeff (45m 10s): Go Google that right now, you’re gonna see a million hits on that. ’cause it’s, it’s, it’s a topic that a lot of people hit. And I don’t know, I, I think it’s like, you know, I go, I go out to Montana and I fish with my buddy who, who’s a great guy out there, Jake from Montana Fly guy. Oh yeah. Really good dude. And we, we will fish almost not always the same fly, but over 20 days out on the water. I bet we’re fishing fairly similar flies like almost the entire time. And, and he jokes about some of the guys that he fishes with or has seen in the past that said, listen, I don’t care. I’m out here on vacation. I’m from Connecticut or Boston or whatever. I wanna drive fly fish the whole time. He’s like, Hey man, it’s your day. And they’ll catch a few fish, but floating a giant, giant stone fly or something like that up top, then floating, like putting one below it. Jeff (45m 58s): There’s a lot of stone flies in those waters and there’s a lot of fish eating them. And they will swim three feet to go eat one of those big bugs versus a tiny dry, they might not rise for that. So you just never know, man. All kinds of ways to catch a fish on a fly. And I, I like all of them. Dave (46m 14s): That’s why we love it. This is great. Well give us one before we get outta here, just on a resource, again, back to the travel. So we’re playing this trip. Maybe we’re with the family, maybe we’re on a business trip. What would be a, a resource that you would say, Hey, you gotta go do this. Look at this, download this or check this out before your trip. What would be the big thing out there? Jeff (46m 31s): You know, I think you nailed it with trout. Trout Dave (46m 34s): Routes. Yeah. Trout routes. Yep. I Jeff (46m 36s): Haven’t used it yet, but it’s one that I need to, so that’s kinda like on my to-do list. I think just Google is amazing where you say, listen, I’m gonna go to this place. Are there fly fishing opportunities? And you’re gonna find some interesting information. Just, it’s a 10 minute search, right? You don’t have to go down the rabbit hole and be on there for four days. Yeah. Checking out this, this information. ’cause you probably could, ’cause there’s so much information out there. And then If you are going to a, to a place that you know, out in the mountains or wherever where obviously if you’re going to a place where you’re gonna be fishing for bass in a pond, you’re probably not gonna find a a fly shop. And that’s, that’s fine. You probably don’t need it. But If you are going to someplace like that, utilize the local resources. And again, at the beginning, highly recommend you hire somebody to take you out that knows the area a little bit. Jeff (47m 19s): Even If you are a very, very accomplished angler, you do a couple things, you’re, you’re supporting somebody trying to make a living and you’re gonna get some information. And it’s okay to pay, pay a little bit of of money to learn something. It’s, we make tuition payments in life every day. Yeah, Dave (47m 33s): Definitely. Jeff (47m 33s): Either you learn or you don’t though. Dave (47m 35s): I agree. Yeah, I would just add, I think you mentioned it before, but you know, If you do have the time, you know, if it’s more like a half day or a day, I think, you know, getting a guide is always a cool way to, If you want to go that route, you don’t have to. Obviously DIY is great, but that’s another thing. And then I’m not sure I use it a lot. I think probably a lot of people do, but the chat GPT seems to be getting, or the, the AI seems to be getting better and better at things. And I’m sure eventually it’s just gonna be like right there just like, okay, you know, you’re just talking to you. It’s like your guide, you know what I mean? Like, it’s kind of, it’s kind of like embarrassing to say that, but I feel like it’s going there, right? This, the knowledge is getting so good. Jeff (48m 12s): I think you’re spot on. The technology’s getting better every single day. The outputs that they give you is better every day. We, we used it a little bit for, for planning the Austria trip. We ended up going with kinda like a, a guide to help book everything for us. But I would say that, to get the outline of it, it’s just such a cool tool. So we wanna do, you type in there stream of consciousness, everything that you wanna do, and all of a sudden it says like, well here, here’s a list of things you should do and here’s a list of things that you weren’t thinking about that maybe you should. So it’s pretty cool. Fly fishing the same way, man. It’s like, you, you put that in there. The, the search engine in there, like you said, is getting better every single day. So I can’t even imagine where we’re at in the future with that. Dave (48m 50s): No, I, I just put in the phoenix, that example, the, you know, Phoenix. I just basically said, I’m fishing phoenix, where should I fly fish? And it gave a bunch of, you know, lower salt river, SRP canals, oak, and then even gave a video now at the bottom like, here’s Phoenix on the fly. Boom. Wow. You know what I mean? Yeah, Jeff (49m 5s): That’s awesome. Dave (49m 5s): There’s your YouTube video in chat, GPT. So I feel like it’s just, I’m not sure how it differs from Google. ’cause Google’s using their own ai, right? I mean, I think there’s probably overlap, but Jeff (49m 16s): Probably a little overlap. I think they, they work together a little bit, but I, I would, I would imagine. But yeah, I, I think you’re right. It’s gonna keep getting better. Perfect. Which is exciting. Dave (49m 24s): Awesome Jeff. Well this has been a great episode here. Love always the travel tips. We will send everybody out to pescador on the fly dot com if people wanna check out the G six, check out the six piece, the four piece, anything you have going. But yeah man, this has been great. Really appreciate it and looking forward to hopefully, you know, seeing you on the water here as we move ahead. Jeff (49m 42s): For sure. We gotta do it. Yeah. Appreciate it man. This has been fun. Thank you. Dave (49m 47s): All right, your call to action for today is check in with Jeff, let him know you heard this podcast and check out that six piece Rod right now. You can go to pescado on the fly dot com or check him out on social media. We also have a view, If you wanna see on YouTube right now, we’ll have a link to that, the unboxing video. If you wanna see me unboxing this, this Rod and some fun stuff there, we’ll have all sorts of links in the show notes. Just go to wet fly swing.com and check in with Jeff this week. That’s the best way to support us and Pescado on the fly. Shout out before we get outta here. Landon Mayer Tripp. If you’re interested in Landon Mayor right now, you can send me email dave@wetlyswing.com and we do have a spot available for Landon Mayor. Dave (50m 31s): This is Epic Colorado trip from one of the best out there. Send me an email if you’re interested. That’s all I have for you today. Appreciate you for stopping in and listening to this one all the way to the very end. And I definitely hope you have a great morning, great afternoon, or great evening, wherever you are in the world, and we’ll see you on that next one. Outro (50m 50s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing.com.

fly fishing travel

Conclusion with Jeff Ditsworth on Fly Fishing Travel Hacks

From beach mornings in Cancun to hidden trout spots near hotels, Jeff proves that travel and fly fishing can go hand in hand. His advice? Always bring a rod, pack smart, and keep it simple. Don’t overthink it—just get out there. Want to see the gear in action? Check out our YouTube video unboxing of the G6 rod and grab more info in the show notes. Whether you’re a frequent traveler or just dreaming of your next trip, Jeff’s tips will help you stay ready to fish wherever you go.

In the Bucket #17 | Down the Path with Will Rice, Jason Rolfe, and Travis Bader – Fly Fish Journal, Outdoor Safety

Episode Show Notes

In today’s show, we’re gonna be expanding our discussion topics beyond the traditional scope of In the Bucket. Since we started the show, we’ve spent a lot of time talking about space-specific ideas like casting improvement, gear selection, and what to do when a steelhead grabs your fly. In this episode, we’ve got Will Rice, Jason Rolfe, and Travis Bader joining us. These guys are journalists, outdoor educators, and travel experts. Surely we’ll get into steelhead as we do, but today we talk about fly fishing, travel adventure in general, personal safety on the water, and dig into a fly fishing mystery or two. Let’s get into it…

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In the Bucket #16 | Sandy River Spey Clave with George Cook, Mia Sheppard, and Josh Linn

Full Podcast Transcript

Episode Transcript
Will (2s): The saying, you know, I didn’t come up with it, but a friend of mine did. So many times you’re, you know, you’re out in these different places and it’s like, it’s so beautiful. And then you’re like, and we get to go fishing. You know what I mean? Like, the environment is so awesome and just amazing and beautiful And it’s blowing your mind. And then you’re like, oh my gosh, I have a fly rod here in my hand. And we’re gonna go deeper out there into the unknown and, and greatness and, and all of that. So that’s a very longwinded answer to why I love to travel and, and fly fish. Brian (42s): Welcome to In The Bucket, the podcast that explores the culture of spay fishing in the Pacific Northwest. A spectacular land of mountains and wild rivers where every cast has a story to tell. I’m your host, Brian Ska. In today’s show, we’re gonna be expanding our discussion topics beyond the traditional scope of In the Bucket. Since we started the show, we’ve spent a lot of time talking about space specific ideas like casting improvement, gear selection, and what to do when a steelhead grabs your fly. In this episode, I’ve got Will Rice, Jason Rolfe, and Travis Bader joining me. These guys are journalists, outdoor educators, and travel experts. I’m sure we’ll get into steelhead as we do, but today I wanna talk about fly fishing, travel adventure in general, personal safety on the water, and dig into a fly fishing mystery or two. Brian (1m 35s): Welcome folks. I’m really excited for today’s show. This is one I’ve been hoping to put together for a while. I’ve got three super interesting guests for you sitting with me today. I’ve got Will Rice, Jason Rolf, and Travis Bader. Will, why don’t you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Yeah. Will (1m 50s): Hey, thanks for having me on the show. My name is Will Rice. I’m originally from upstate New York, spent a lot of time out in Colorado and I’m now up here in Vancouver, British Columbia, I should say, back up here in Vancouver. And I’m a freelance writer and content creator and I love to love to fly fish. So that’s, that’s, that’s pretty much it. Jason (2m 14s): My name is Jason Raul from the editor of the Fly Fish Journal and the founder of a reading series called Writers on the Fly. I live in Olympia, Washington, lived here pretty much most of my life, so get up to get up to BC at least a couple times a year to go fishing or climbing or find some other adventures to, to do. Travis (2m 39s): Brian, thanks so much for having me here. Great to see you again, Jason and Will Great to see you guys for the first time. My name’s Travis Bader. I am passionate about the outdoors. I’ve got a company called Silver Core Outdoors, and for the last five years I’ve hosted a podcast called the Silver Core Podcast. Brian (2m 55s): Well, isn’t this fun where we got four podcasters here on the show, don’t we? Travis (3m 1s): We might be able to figure something out here, right? Brian (3m 3s): Yeah, I was joking with my wife that eventually there’s gonna be more podcasters than listeners, so it’s important that we all, we all stick together and listen to each other’s shows. Yep, Will (3m 12s): That’s right. Brian (3m 13s): So Will your podcast is really unique And it was honestly probably the first podcast I actually listened to, aside from, from Joe Rogan back in the day. You know, what’s the heck’s the podcast? Oh, comes Joe Rogan, my buddy says this is gonna be a big deal. And you know, sure enough he was right. So your podcast is a little bit different. How would you characterize that style of a podcast? ’cause really it, you know, it it told a story and there was chapters to it. Will (3m 40s): Yeah, well thank thanks for that. Yeah. Down the path, it was created a little bit of a science project really. I first had set out to write a long form story, so you know, an article that that might appear in a magazine or, or on a website. And as I was thinking about that story that, that I had originally started working on about 10 years before that I had listened to Serial, which is a, is a podcast that probably a lot of people have heard. And you know, in, in going through the, the process of creating the article, you know, you interview people and I record people and so the the dots kind of connected and, and I thought, you know, hey, in addition to writing this long form article, that at some point I’ll find, hopefully find a home for, I can do these recordings and maybe put together something like Sarah Kig put together with, with Serial. Will (4m 36s): So that was, I mean, there was a little bit of a lift and lay there as I was trying to think about how it could be done. And yeah, that’s the origin of it. And, and you know, it ended up, we, you know, we did publish the article on the fly fish journal.com and in the process as well, I, I talked to Jason about kind of my idea And it was just an idea at that point, very much. And we put our heads together and, and collaborated and, and I, I owe a ton of thanks to Jason, you know, for his, his style edits and, and he did all the digital sound and was a tremendous source of creativity when, when the whole thing came together. Will (5m 17s): So yeah, that’s kinda, that’s how I, how I would describe it or I guess the origin of the, of the podcast. Brian (5m 24s): Excellent. So essentially, if I’m picking up what you’re laying down, the story came before the podcast, is that right? Will (5m 29s): Yeah, absolutely. It really did. You know, in, in fact when I was interviewing people for the story, you know, I would always mention, Hey, you know, this could come out in some other type of digital form. I don’t even think I used the word podcast when I was talking to people and interviewing people that you hear in down the Path season one. It was more of like a concept like, yeah, there might be some digital form of this recording. And I would always ask them, obviously if, if I could record them and get permission. And, and that’s its own whole thing, you know, kind of getting people to do that and, and some of the folks I had to actually interview twice to get them to go on record for the recorded portion of it. Will (6m 10s): So yeah. Yeah, very much. We did not have a, a real firm understanding of what down the path was gonna look like when we started. Brian (6m 19s): And we’re definitely gonna do a bit of a deep dive on, on season one down the path. But before we do, I want to talk podcasting with our other guests. So Jason, your podcast is a, you’ve actually, I think, been involved with a couple different podcasts, but totally different style. Let’s talk about your introduction to podcasting. Jason (6m 36s): Yeah, you know, I come from being obsessed with writing background. That’s all I ever wanted to do growing up. And you know, after I got into fly fishing, then I discovered the very rich and massive world of fly fishing, writing and fly fishing literature and, and especially got to know a couple of, you know, really great writers that we have up here in the Pacific Northwest. And so, boy, I honestly, I think I started, so I think I started this thing called Writers on the Fly first, which is the reading series that I mentioned that it’s like a literary reading. Jason (7m 17s): The first one happened at a fly shop in Seattle called Emerald Water Anglers. And we’re actually having the 10th anniversary reading next month. But it’s just, I got a three different readers fly fishing writers and they get up in front of the crowd and they read a few stories or poems or whatever they have. And that really kind of came from just my love of that kind of thing. When I was in college, you know, there was a literary reading every weekend And it was fun and we’d drink beer and wine and listen to stories and totally nerd out about words and you know, that kind of thing. And then I think kind of similar to Will with the podcast, I was a big fan of a couple of podcasts, one being the Mark Marin’s WTF podcast. Jason (8m 3s): I really liked that, the interview style. And so I thought, well, maybe I can try to do that with some of these writers that I know. So Dylan Mina was one, Steve Duda, who at the time was the editor of the Fly Fish Journal, was another, and there’s been a handful of others. Will was a writer that I interviewed for the Fly Tapes. And so yeah, that, the podcast that I initially started was called The Fly Tapes, And it was interviews with writers and eventually artists as well. And just conversations really like this, hearing about people’s backgrounds, hearing about how they got into writing, how they got into fly fishing and just really having fun conversations was kind of where I came into it from. Jason (8m 49s): And I really, you know, was kind of learning as I went and figured it out. And one day will hit me up and he said, Hey, you know, there’s this story that I’ve been following for I think almost 10 years at that point Will, right Ron Sheep’s story. And he, he asked me if I would help him, you know, create a, a podcast version of the story. And I was like, yeah, let’s do it. Sounds fun, sounds like a challenge. Sounds like I will definitely be a fish out of water, but I think we’ll figure it out and we can, you know, I really felt like we could do something compelling and do something interesting and the rest is history. Brian (9m 28s): Well, I certainly found it to be interesting. I had to binge listen to the whole thing and I don’t wanna give anything away so I won’t express my thoughts or frustrations right now. Podcasting, art form, perhaps relatively new, evolving. We’re figuring it out as we go. Travis, I was the guest on your show and you were early in on podcasting. How many years have you had the Silver course show now? Travis (9m 50s): Oh man, I don’t feel like it was early in, but about five years. And now I’m not the target demographic for podcasting. And even now, if people say, oh, you’re a podcaster, I’m like, yeah, I guess so. Like I’m sitting in my studio, I’ve got a microphone and I’ve been putting a podcast out every couple weeks. I guess I’m a podcaster, but I, it was about five and a half years ago, my wife got me tickets for Christmas to go watch a live taping of a podcast and I’ve got a DHD and my attention’s all over the place and I don’t, I don’t really listen to podcasts and I’m not the average consumer of content like most people would consume it, a little dribs and drabs here and there. But I look at this, I’m like, what kind of present is this? Travis (10m 31s): I mean, I don’t listen to podcasts, I’ve never listened to one at that time. And it’s for this group called Meat Eater. I’ve never heard of Meat Eater, I don’t know anything about this. Right. Well, meat Eater was kind of a big deal even at that time. And we go down there, I ended up meet and greet getting to meet Steve and Janice and actually met this really nice girl who grew up in my hometown from Surrey and talked with her for a bit, our mutual friend April Vokey. And she’s big into podcasting and she was a big inspiration for me. So I kind of took the plunge Friend came by and says, everyone’s gotta be a media company. I’ve watched this guy called Gary Vayner Ju and that’s what he says. And I, again had no clue who this person was, but trusted my friend and turned my office into a studio, moved the staff to a different office and here we are now. Brian (11m 21s): So Podcasting’s just basically part of your empire down there. What else does Silver Core do? What’s Silver Core about Travis? Travis (11m 28s): Well, I guess again, a DHD, a little bit of everything, but I started Silver Core when I was in high school and it was basically firearm safety training in Canada under the new government program that the RCNP put out. I applied for policing in my early twenties at around 20 years old. They said, come back with more experience. I said, tell you what, I’ll start a business. That’ll be my experience. When it fails, I’ll come back and I’ll be a cop. Well, the business didn’t fail and I’ve been doing firearms repair and maintenance across Canada for law enforcement agencies and private security and public companies. And we do instruction for like mineral exploration and parks and ministry of forest, DOF on firearms, situational awareness, bear awareness, basic safety. Travis (12m 17s): And over the last number of years, I’ve been sitting behind a desk more than anything. Well, other very talented instructors are, are carrying the torch forward. So that’s a little bit about what we do online training as well. And then we’ve got the provincial contract for Hunter education training online in British Columbia. Brian (12m 35s): And if we could only go back in time and if, well, Ron had only picked you as one of his fishing partners, maybe he’d still be around. Travis (12m 42s): I don’t know. I don’t know. I’ve been looking a little bit about this case, but there’s always the benefit of being the armchair quarterback in, in hindsight and what we could have done. But hopefully I’ve got a couple of points here that might resonate with the listeners that can help them if they decide to go out and do something similar. Brian (12m 57s): So Will, let’s, let’s talk about how you first became aware of this particular unfortunate situation. Will (13m 5s): Sure. So back then, so 2009 I’d, you know, been writing different articles for fly fishing magazines and, you know, I never really was a kinda where to or, or how to writer and, and I was really trying to chase other types of stories that were interesting to me. And I’d written a story in 2007 about a lodge owner in The Bahamas, a fly fishing lodge owner in The Bahamas who went missing with a few of his employees and a few boats, which was a really interesting story for me. And that kind of got the, the door kicked open into the magazine writing on my end. Will (13m 45s): And then I did a couple other stories about people, you know, kind of just getting into bad situations while, while fly fishing. One guy in Montana who was, he was a guide who got hit by Lightning, another guy in Colorado who had an accident and had a self amputate his knee. Another story about an angler who was down in Florida and was, was DIY tarpon fishing, fell off his boat and nicked an artery. So kind of those just interesting off the beaten path stories, I guess. And so in 2009, a friend of mine had just sent me a random email ’cause he knew I was, you know, into those kind of different types of stories. Will (14m 26s): And it was super short. It was like, Hey, did you hear about this guy who went missing down in, down in southern Mexico? And I had not heard about it. And so that kind of kicked me into gear and I just started, you know, to see what, you know, what was being reported locally there ish, KLA, Mexico. I mean, there’s not a lot of infrastructure, it’s a super small village. So there wasn’t a lot of information about the story. So I just started kind of digging in and I pitched the idea, you know, like, Hey, let’s write a piece about this because, you know, he’d been missing for a couple weeks at that point. And you know, I’d reached out to people close to him and I wasn’t getting a lot of information and I reached out to people who were at the lodge he was staying at and they didn’t wanna talk about it. Will (15m 14s): And you know, maybe Travis, I’m like you a little bit, you know, that that kind of gets me going even more when people don’t wanna talk about things. And so, you know, at the time, you know, at the time, you know, there’s a deadline for that magazine issue. And it was just the basics. It was like, you know, who, what, when, where, why, what do we know? And I kind of figured, you know, in the next couple weeks, you know, he’d be found and you know, that would be it. And he wasn’t. And I would continue to go back just to look to see, you know, hey, what happened, what happened? And nothing. And, and that just kind of took me down the path, so to speak. Brian (15m 51s): Well, it’s a, it’s a fantastic title for the show and we’re giving the listeners here just a little bit of taste as we go, which I hope what we would encourage them to do to get the full story is to check out your show. So let’s take a quick moment and tell ’em how they can find episode one of Down the Path Online. Will (16m 7s): Yeah, you can check out episode one or there’s a short trailer. It’s like a five minute trailer. It’s still at down the path podcast.com. Or you can find down the path at, you know, apple Music or Spotify, just about anywhere that you listen to your, your podcast. Brian (16m 25s): Now, Jason, your magazine of course did a, a fairly large feature on this particular situation to access that. Is that online or do people need to find back issues of the magazine? Jason (16m 36s): No, we did that, we did that as a, as a online only feature. So it wasn’t in print. You just go to the, go to the website, the fly fish journal.com and just probably search down the path and it’ll come up. I think we’ve done a couple things with Will with Down the path over the last several years. So might find a couple things in there. But yeah, that original story about Ron Sheep’s disappearance is just on the website Brian (17m 6s): And it’s important for me to mention that, you know, there’s three seasons of Down the path isn’t there? Will, Will (17m 11s): Yeah, three seasons or three very separate stories. Yeah. Season one is about Ron Shera and his disappearance from Ishak Mexico. Season two is about the murder of a fly fishing guy named Mario Grene and his client named Gary Swank in Belize. And the third season is, it’s called The Disappearance of Stanley Bain. And that’s that original story I was telling you about, about the lodge owner who went missing from South Andros Island in The Bahamas back in, back in 1995. So that, yeah, those are the three distinct seasons, quote unquote, or, or, or stories. Dave (17m 51s): Stonefly Nets build handcrafted landing nets that are as tough as they are beautiful. They’re shaped, sanded, and finished by hand from premium hardwoods. You’ll feel the difference the moment you land your first fish light in the hands, strong at the hoop and made by someone who knows what it means to earn your trust. You can head over to stonefly nets.com right now and see what they’ve got in the shop today. That’s stonefly nets.com. Discover Smitty’s Fly box for premium flies. Their monthly subscription service delivers expertly crafted flies and materials tailored to your fishing environment, boasting over 30 years of experience. Smitty’s is your trusted source for a diverse range of flies, enhance your fishering experience and make life easier with their carefully created selections. Dave (18m 36s): You can subscribe right now at smitty’s fly box.com and join a community of passionate anglers. Brian (18m 46s): So what’s compelling to me with, with season one with Ron Shera is you were, you were in it right away. So essentially you were taking on the role of a private investigator and you know, you were talking to people much in the same way. Perhaps an officer of the law might be trying to extract information. And one of the things that really dug me into those episodes was people’s behavior wasn’t what I would expect. And I always think that when things aren’t what you would expect, there’s more to the story. And, you know, it was, it was a, it’s a heck of a mystery. It really is. Travis, I know you weren’t, you’re kind of new to this story, but I know you’ve done a little bit of looking into it. Brian (19m 27s): Can you give some quick insight into what Ron could have done pre-trip, you know, before he even got on the plane to help put himself in a better situation? And Travis (19m 37s): I like the way that you put that. Whenever I break these things down, I like to look at a before, during, and after sort of an outline. It helps me to be able to kind of think about like compartmentalize different things that I can do. So basic trip preparation beforehand, you want to take a look at what your risks are gonna be. I mean the, the fact that there are risks are what make these sort of adventures exciting. They make them adventurous. There’s a big question mark out there. You’re never gonna be able to eliminate all of those question marks, but you can manage them pretty good ahead of time and you can do that without even leaving your desk. You can get onto ai, any can start using that to say, what are some of the environmental risks that I could be looking at? Travis (20m 21s): What are the social risks that I could be looking at? What are basic things that I might wanna pack with me in this area at this time? You can call up police stations and given, depending on the place that you’re calling, they might be able to give you a little bit of insight like, Hey, I’m planted to stay in this area. Would you let your kids stay in this area? Like is this a place where I should be st staying around or would you recommend some other place? So a little bit of prior planning is helpful, putting together an itinerary, very itemized list of kinda what you plan to be doing. And even having a check-in if you’re doing this all by yourself and there’s an adventure to that. A quick way to help minimize risk is the buddy system. Like they say in Rex Kwando, we use the buddy system, right? Travis (21m 3s): So having somebody else with you can be helpful, but if you’re doing it by yourself, having somebody who knows what you’re doing that you can check in with, maybe if you’re gonna be with a guide, research ’em, I mean, it’s all online, it’s easy enough to do, get on Google, do a little bit of Google Fu and then you kind of wanna establish a baseline. And that can be done partially prior and when you first arrive and establishing a baseline will kind of tell you what the norm is. So you can establish a baseline for people and their patterns establish a baseline for the wilderness and what to expect. And that will allow you to more easily identify the absence of normal ’cause that is oftentimes when you will run into issues. Travis (21m 50s): That would be a few of my before tips. Brian (21m 52s): Those are great. And I always remember my mom growing up when I would, and this was before we had in reach satellite messaging, before cell phones. My mom would always wanna know when I’d go off my fishing adventures, you know, where I was going and who I was going with basic stuff. You know, I, I’m bouncing around a little bit as we do with this show, but season two will, you know, that was, you know, whereas the, the Sheep store case is, is really fascinating. We know exactly what happened in season two And it really seems a situation of someone who went on a fishing trip and ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person, didn’t it? Will (22m 30s): Yeah. And they’re very different, you know, season one and the, and the story of Ron, you know, it, it’s probably the most fascinating one for me just because the lack of any type of evidence that points to any one of the things that could have happened. I mean, it’s just, it, the sum is zero. Season two is very different. I I agree. It’s, you know, it, it’s pretty clear what happened in season two. It wasn’t clear when we started the podcast. That was one of the things. So you know about Midway, you know, these, these projects take, you know, anywhere from I think seven or eight months to a year plus. And so midway through the work on season two, the police in Belize, you know, released a report that, you know, was shocking in its detail in a way and really kind of outlined. Will (23m 20s): But when we started it was still kind of a mystery. And you know, to some degree, I think, I think you summed it up exactly right and that was just being at the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person. And you know, it’s, you know, I I think you can do as much preparation as, as you, you want and those things can happen. But I would say this too, you know, one of the things there is, I’ve talked to people in the travel industry, you know, working with some, some of the professional travel agencies there who do a lot of that pre-vetting and they know and they’ve been out with these people. I think there is a level of, you know, risk elimination. You know, if you work with some of these companies who have hands-on experience versus just, I mean, and I’ve done it, right, I am totally guilty of, you know, walking into a village and going knocking on a door because I got a name, you know, at the bar of a guy who’s who drives a boat and I go out with him. Will (24m 17s): So, I mean, I’ve done that many, many, many times and you know, probably that’s a little bit riskier than, you know, working with a travel company who’s really vetted these companies and guide services and guides. Well, Brian (24m 29s): So will, you know, to me you’re, I’ve guided you for steelhead. I can’t remember, I don’t think we caught any steelhead, but we tried. That’s right. But you’re, you’re a pretty well-rounded angler. You’re, you’re big into warm water, salt water stuff, aren’t you? Yeah, Will (24m 40s): I, I’m a I’m a dabbler of everything. I, I would say I’m a, I’m an expert of nothing and a and a dabbler of, of everything that swims. So yeah. That’s a good, that’s a good way to put it. Brian (24m 49s): Jason, I know you’ve done some, some guiding. We, we talked a bit about that before working with, I believe that same fly shop right? In Washington. Jason (24m 58s): Yeah, yeah. Emerald Water anglers. Brian (25m 0s): I’ve never been in there, but I’ve heard nothing but good things about that shop. So let’s talk about your fishing. So you’re down in Washington. Are you a steelhead guy primarily, or do you do a little bit of everything? Jason (25m 10s): Yeah, I definitely, when it’s steelhead season, I go fishing for steelhead, you know, something I enjoy every year, but I, I do like to mix it up the rest of the year. I don’t do a whole lot of summer steel heading because, you know, I’m usually out salmon fishing or trout or carp or bass, you know, I, I really do like to, to mix it up in the warmer months. But yeah, January through, you know, mid-April if I have a free day or a free weekend, I’m, I’m going out steelheading somewhere. And it’s something that, it’s something that, that I, I grew up with my, you know, there’s pictures of me as a little kid with steelhead on the Soul duck. Jason (25m 53s): And it’s funny because I, you know, I grew up steelheading and, and fishing for salmon, and then there was a long period where when I was younger that I, when I didn’t fish as much, and then sort of after college, I, when I got into fly fishing, I eventually got into fly fishing for steelhead. And that whole, you know, walk of, of misery, I guess that is swinging flies and, you know, yeah, that’s what I do nowadays. Brian (26m 23s): So, you know, for myself dabbling in this podcast stuff, I also obviously run a lodge and teach casting. Those are my main jobs and have a family. So I tend to record a bunch of the shows one after another. So I’ve got ’em sitting there ready to go. And yesterday I, I had a real fun one. I, I sat down with Richard Harrington, who’s also a podcaster. Richard has got a great show called The River Rambler, and another guest, a guy I’d never met before, but super interesting, Kat, a guy named Adrian Cortez, and not trying to scare you guys, but we talked for about three hours. I’m gonna have to edit that one down to make it work. But it, you know, we had just a fantastic discussion. Brian (27m 3s): And Adrian in particular is fascinating to me because he ties his flies in his hand. He doesn’t use a vice, he fishes bamboo, he fishes a dry line, prefers to fish a dry fly. So essentially Adrian’s made fly fishing for steelhead as challenging as possible, and doing it in a way that’s true to the history, you know, using, you know, established patterns. And once again, you know, not a numbers guy by any means. And I think, you know, steelheading is different to me than other types of fly fishing because it’s a bit of a mental exercise. You know, we don’t get that positive reinforcement of knowing that the fish are in the lake, or we can see the fish on the flats. We have to believe they’re there and we just have to, you know, one more cast, one more step, one more cast. Brian (27m 46s): Travis, you’re fairly new to Steelheading, I think, you know, less than a decade, right? Travis (27m 51s): Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I’m, I’m newer actually. The first time I tried Steelheading was ski spay up there with you. And I got some amazing casting lessons and a very jealous wife as you were showing me some how to cast there. And I caught my first steelhead with, with Pat, pat Behan. I met him at your lodge, but I actually caught my first steelhead on the Squamish and, and then proceeded to catch another one right afterwards. So that was kind of, kind of a good day. It was pretty good. Well, Brian (28m 22s): That’s, that’s Steelheading, isn’t it? It’s just, it’s hilarious how things go. Squamish, widely regarded as a challenging place to catch a steelhead guy who’s never caught one goes out and gets two in the same day, right? Yep, yep. There you go. Yep. Will (28m 34s): You’re making me mad Travis. Travis (28m 37s): That was my first one, and then after I got, I was like, oh, this is easy. Oh God, I got another one. This is easy. About half an hour later, I got my second one. Brian (28m 45s): Travis, you’re at the core. Your company’s an educational company and the business that you’re in is, is teaching people and essentially sharing your passions. So you’re, you’re an outdoors guy. What is it about steelheading that speaks to you and and do you have similarities there with, with your hunting? Travis (29m 2s): I love standing in the water. I love connecting with nature. Any way that I can deepen my connection with nature and I view hunting and fishing as an excellent means to be able to do that. And people say, well, isn’t that a cruel way to connect with nature? You’re just out there teasing these poor fish or injuring these poor defenseless animals. But that’s a very, very small part of the whole process. And of course when you’re hunting all, everything you get can be used. You’re steel heading, we’re catch and release. And that was a whole new concept to me, which was, I know when we first came in there, and I think I probably just peppered you with 101 different questions about like, why are we letting these fish go afterwards? Travis (29m 44s): I mean, like, I, should I be buying a cooler? I can, that was new to me. But standing in the water, connecting with nature, the stillness is something that speaks to my A DHD in a way that nothing else ever has. Brian (29m 57s): Now will, what is it about saltwater fishing that gets you going? Is it the visual aspect? Will (30m 2s): There’s a couple of different things I would say about salt water fishing that really tip me over that, that’s what I would call it. I always liked to travel, I always liked the, you know, as Travis mentioned before, the, you know, the adventure, the unknown of travel. So even before I really got into fly fishing, I, I dug that, whether it was, you know, here in the states or overseas. And then I started to fly fish and then, you know, very quickly realized that like when you’re traveling, you know, you can bring a four piece rod and there’s fishing opportunities everywhere around the globe. And, you know, that just took like the, what I always think of the, you know, the puzzle of fly fishing, trying to put it together all the different pieces, whether it’s on your little local river or creek and the time of year and, and all that kind of thing. Will (30m 50s): And it just, you know, takes that puzzle and up levels it. And now you’re, you know, you’re visiting these, these amazing places and you’re checking out new species and there’s the culture to it, all of that, you know, just, you know, really kind of, you know, tipped me over, as I always say, it tipped me over. And that put me on a, you know, I, I always said I’m a better person when I have a, when I have a trip on the books and you know, maybe I’m tying flies or I’m doing research and, and then yes, finally like at the end of all of that, there is that, you know, visual aspect of saltwater fishing that you get many times, but not all the times. You know, the, there’s plenty of times you blind cast and that kind of thing, but, you know, permit bonefish, tarpon, you know, that visual aspect of stalking a fish, seeing a fish, making the cast, watching it eat, you know, that to me is, is pretty pinnacle. Will (31m 43s): I love that. And you know, and then again, I, you know, the the saying, you know, I didn’t come up with it but a friend of mine did. So many times you’re, you know, you’re out in these different places and it’s like, it’s so beautiful. And then you’re like, and we get to go fishing. You know what I mean? Like, the environment is, is so awesome and just amazing and beautiful and it’s blowing your mind and then you’re like, oh my gosh, I have a fly rod here in my hand and we’re gonna go deeper out there into the unknown and, and greatness and, and all of that. So that’s a very long-winded answer to why I love to travel and, and fly fish. Brian (32m 19s): So, you know, the trip Ron was on and once again, I, I hesitate to give too much information here ’cause I want people to go and, and check out your show because, you know, the way you’ve put it together, it’s such a good listen. But I think it’s important for people listening to have some idea of, let’s call it the trajectory, the decisions that were made and how, how Ron’s day went when he went down the path with this particular story had, do you fish the waters that Ron was fishing that day? Will (32m 46s): No, I’ve never fished ishak. I fished just south of there down at Belize and Agi Key. I think we actually fished probably illegally north into, into Mexico on, on one trip. And then I have fished quite a bit just north of, of Ishak in Ascension Bay. So I fished around the area, but never in Ishak per se. Brian (33m 7s): Jason or Travis, have either of you fished in that neck of the woods? Will (33m 11s): No. No, I haven’t, Brian (33m 12s): Never Jason (33m 12s): Have. No. Brian (33m 14s): You know what’s interesting Will is I have numerous friends who fish that area. I’m not a a burn in the sun. I’m not a, I’m not a warm water guy, but you know, the friends that I I have that have visited down there, none of them were aware of this. And I’ve, I keep pointing them to your, to your show, right? So it doesn’t seem like this is something that really gets discussed down there by anglers fishing it. I don’t wanna say it’s forgotten, but it’s not the topic of conversation I would’ve thought it would be. Will (33m 38s): Yeah, I think that, you know, generally is the case, right? It, it’s kind of a tourist, not tourist area, but you know, it, it’s not something that if you were running a business down there, I guess you’d probably wanna really advertise people going missing around your, your commercial place of business. So I, I get that for sure. And you know, the podcast was, was kind of popular, but it’s a pretty nerdy topic, so I don’t think it’s, you know, it’s not been widely, widely listened to. So yeah, that doesn’t, that doesn’t completely surprise me. Brian (34m 12s): Well, let, let’s summarize it a little bit. So Ron’s on a fishing trip with his buddies, people, I believe that he, he knew fairly well on this particular day. He makes a decision where he is fishing on his own. What was he fishing for that day? Will (34m 27s): I am guessing, you know, primarily permit, you know, Ishak is a place that’s really known as a, as a permit fishery. And then, you know, obviously, well not obviously, but there are bonefish down there, so I’m sure they were having shots at, at bonefish as well in that specific little lagoon area. I’d say those are probably the two, two species that they would be coming across as well as, you know, probably like smaller barracuda, that kind of thing as well. Brian (34m 55s): Nice. So he’s out there fishing, people see him leave, he doesn’t show up when he is supposed to. What happened then? Yeah, Will (35m 2s): That part of the day is kind of a mystery. You know, there’s about four to six hours there that, you know, I really dug into it and, and tried to get as much information, you know, hour by hour, minute by minute of like what actually happened. And as best I can tell, you know, there’s a couple odd things, you know, four people out there, they had two cars. That’s not normally how they fished. So that group of folks, four folks, they had fished there two years prior, so they knew the area. This, the third year was a little bit different. So they had two cars and Ron told his friends he wasn’t feeling that well and was gonna go back to the car and so he kind of walked out of the flat outta sight of his, his buddies and just kind of vanished. Will (35m 48s): And his buddies then left. They saw his car, they figured that maybe he didn’t go back to the hotel like he said he was going to, they went about and fished some more, went back to the hotel during midday, then went back out to the flat again. His car was still there. They went back to the hotel in the evening. And then later in the evening at dinnertime is when they, you know, let the staff know that Ron Ron was missing. So yeah, that six hours, that four hours, I mean everyone I’ve talked to, you know, kind of agrees. It’s just, it’s a little bit of a mystery and it’s not really well documented. Brian (36m 27s): Jason, when you guys came out with, you know, the online article, did you get any feedback from, from readers, people with ideas? Jason (36m 35s): I think that we probably got more feedback and theories from people listening to the podcast. ’cause you know, there was Will and I would get emails from people through the, the link on the down the path podcast website and, you know, ranging from messages, ranging from just surprise and amazement at this story and just wondering like what had hap ’cause it, it really is just such a compelling mystery. There is absolutely nothing to point in any one direction and Will in the podcast goes through kind of some theories of what the possibilities are, but there’s really nothing that points strongly, you know, in any one direction as far as I can remember. Jason (37m 27s): And, but we would, you know, I think we would get messages from people here and there that maybe pointed a little bit in one direction and then, you know, it maybe follow it up a little bit And it kind of would, would peter out, will might be able to speak to some of those things a little bit more. But yeah. And as far as, you know, through the, the online article that was on the website, I don’t remember whether we got any messages through that, but it was definitely, you know, we could tell after that first season of the podcast was released, I I think we could tell that it had struck a chord. Jason (38m 10s): People were certainly, certainly interested, certainly intrigued and, and that was fun. It, it was, it felt good to know that we had created something that was resonating with people Brian (38m 22s): And building awareness, right? Yeah. If the gentleman was still alive, someone’s, I mean, he’s gonna stick out down there, right? Yeah. Jason (38m 30s): You would think. Travis (38m 31s): And he walked off and that was the last will, that was the last anybody ever heard of him? He said he wasn’t feeling well, he walked off. Will (38m 36s): That is correct. Travis (38m 38s): Did anybody say anything like he didn’t look well as well? Or do we have an idea as to his mental health prior to going in here? Was there any indicators that perhaps there was a physical health issue? Will (38m 52s): So yeah, so Ron was a big guy. He was over 300 pounds. He was known to have some type of heart condition, you know, as it was explained to me, you know, he, he kind of was not behaving normally, kind of walking around in circles a little bit. And this is all relayed by his friends to Mexican law enforcement and folks from the US government afterward. So he was kind of not behaving normally, said he wasn’t feeling great and was gonna, you know, walk back now the mental health piece of it. And this was one that was, you know, you know, looked at very, I guess in depth by the US government and the consulate. Will (39m 39s): And that was the thought of like suicide. You know, was he, was his mental health not there. And from all accounts, I mean everyone, his wife, the proprietor of the hotel who, who knew him fairly well, his friends that he, he did not have any, you know, depression or mental health issues that would lead in that direction. And I feel like that one was pretty, pretty much ruled out within the first few days of the investigation. Travis (40m 8s): Interesting. When we’re talking before, during, and after, if we’re to jump to the after, his friends that saw him walk off have probably replayed this through their head 101 times, what would I do differently? Gavin de Becker wrote a book called The Gift of Fear. And aside from it being an excellent sales piece for Gavin de Becker, it also highlights some really valuable insights on how people can trust their gut reaction or should trust their women’s intuition or their gut feeling. And oftentimes people say, well how come I didn’t do something? Well, how come they didn’t? If he’s my friend’s not feeling well, why did I just let him walk back on a zone? Maybe something happened. And oftentimes it’s because people are are embarrassed or they, they figure nothing’s gonna happen. Travis (40m 52s): I would say as a ’cause Brian, you said, if I have ideas and thoughts to, to share these with the listeners, if it goes through your head as a possibility and now that you’ve heard this podcast, there’s a possibility, take that next step. So you never have to ask yourself that question later. What could have I done differently? It’s like a person who’s starts to choke in a restaurant, oftentimes they go into the bathroom ’cause they don’t want to cause a scene. They’re gonna figure this thing out on themselves, follow the person down who looks like they’re having a difficult time. If they look like they’re having a disjointed thought, they verbalize that they’re not feeling well. Take a few moments and spend that time and do that, that extra work with that individual. Travis (41m 34s): So you don’t have to ever turn around later and say, I should have coulda, woulda. Brian (41m 38s): So, you know, back to my mom, don’t go anywhere alone. You know, the relationship with a fishing partner is a special relationship because a lot of times you’re within sight of each other but not necessarily able to talk. So you know, you, you’ve got each other’s back, so to speak. And you know, when we’re out steelhead fishing, wildlife’s a bit of a concern, especially as we approach the river. And especially at the end of the day when we leave the river, when we’re fishing. You know, if, if the bears wanted us, they could just sneak up behind us and whack us and drag us off. We would be none the wiser. But, you know, when we’re moving to and from the river, that’s when we really need to pay attention to our surroundings. And the times that I’ve personally got myself in bad situations with bears, it’s usually a series of things. Brian (42m 21s): So I, I think back to the, the last one, I was with two friends, so I was doing everything right. There was three of us in the group. Now what we’d done wrong is we’d fish till dark. So it was, it was pretty dark when we were going out, there were salmon spawning in this little creek and the trail went parallel to the creek. So it’s, you know, it’s a single file trail and here we are hiking out and lo and behold there’s a just a black bear you fished away, oh look, it’s a black bear with a cub fishing in this creek. Okay? But what we didn’t realize because we weren’t as situationally aware as we should have been, is there was actually two cubs and the other cub was not with the mum in that cub, it was actually on the other side of us. Brian (43m 3s): Once the mother realized what was going on, she was not very pleased. And she expressed that to us in ways that we won’t soon forget. Luckily we at that point did something right and she gathered up her cub, her cubs and they sauntered off up the hillside the same direction we were going. And, and me and my two buddies sat there and said, huh, I wonder how, how long we should give her before we, we hike out in the dark with no flashlights Travis. ’cause this was, you know, a series of bad decisions. And, and so these are, these are lessons you learn. And I think it was probably honestly pure luck that that situation didn’t go bad. Will with Ron, is there a chance that, you know, he encountered some wildlife? What’s down there that’s dangerous? Will (43m 43s): Yeah, there, I think the biggest one, so when we, when we talk to folks it like it pretty quickly. There’s, there’s four like very possible scenarios that people would talk about. And I think the second one was an encounter with some type of wildlife. And I think the only apex predator down in that very specific area, which is these little back lagoons that are very, very shallow, would be a saltwater crocodile. And so that was definitely, you know, something that as far as I can tell was something discussed by local law enforcement right out of the gate. Like did he get eaten by a croc? Will (44m 25s): And I think that one was pretty quickly ruled out just because of the timing. So where he was and the, you know, the amount of time between a lot of people got into that area searching for him. The conclusion was that if a salt water croc did attack him, which is, you know, definitely a possibility there would be evidence of that, right? So like his fly rod or his pack or a shirt or a body part, you know, something there would have, you know, there would’ve been a sign of that kind of explosive attack that might have happened and there wasn’t, and people were on the scene, you know, within, you know, eight hours, within 12 hours, there was a lot of people all around that area. Will (45m 14s): So that was kind of ruled out. Brian (45m 16s): And I remember on the show will, one of the locals said, Hey, you know, the birds will tell us where to find them. Will (45m 22s): Yeah. That, that was the big thing. I mean everyone down there basically, you know, said, Hey, within two or three days, regardless of what happened, if he’s down there dad, like the vultures would be there. And that’s not from, you know, like other, like missing people. I think it was from like, you know, wildlife and, you know, that would be the signal that unfortunately, you know, Ron passed away and was there, but the birds would, would kind of be what shows everybody where, where he is. And once that didn’t happen, I mean the, it, it was interesting to me at least to interview people once that didn’t happen. The, everyone was like, he’s not here. Like, it’s just straight up. He is not here. However he left here, that’s unknown, but he’s not down in that log water flat. Brian (46m 6s): So whenever I’m steelhead fishing, you know, I’m, I’m thinking about wildlife, I’m thinking obviously about water safety. I’m thinking about, you know, not tripping and fallen as I, as I get older and a little more clumsy. I think the most dangerous thing we do is steelheaders is probably getting in and out of the boat. That tends to be a tripping hazard. But you know, there’s this whole other thing of, you know, there’s other people out there and maybe the most dangerous things that are you find in the woods aren’t on four legs, but they might be on two. And is it possible that, you know, are there, is there organized crime or any type of idea that he ran into an individual who would do him harm down there? Will (46m 44s): I think that scenario which, you know, we kind of called, you know, wrong place, wrong time with bad guys, that’s probably the one that his family member really thinks, you know, happened. That he ran into someone or some folks who for whatever reason they wanted to kidnap him or they wanted to rob him and something went wrong. I think that is the, you know, predominant theory that his family has. It certainly makes, you know, some logical sense, but you know, there was no ransom. So I mean, typically if you’re gonna kidnap somebody, it’s for, and that’s, that happens, you know, there’s gonna be a ransom involved. There was never any type of ransom call or anything like that. Will (47m 25s): You know, that part of Mexico is not a, you know, is not a, a drug transshipment point, meaning people don’t believe that there’s a lot of drugs coming up into Ishak and then going somewhere else. You know, they’re like, yeah, it’s come, you know, there’s things coming up from the south, but they’re going right by Ishak. It’s not a point that’s that people, you know, stop at. And one of the big reasons for that is there is a military base that’s like within miles of where Ron went. So it is a, it is an area that has quite a few military folks in the area. So most people I talk to just think, you know, thought like kind of a random kidnapping out in that area was pretty low probability. Will (48m 9s): But again, possible, you know, there’s nothing again about the story. There’s nothing that kind of points to anything including that. Brian (48m 16s): Jason, you’re down in Washington there. Jason (48m 18s): Yeah. Brian (48m 19s): Sasquatch reel or what do you think? Jason (48m 21s): Ha it’s funny that you ask, ’cause this is something I’ve been thinking about and I was, I just started reading this novel just the other day that opens with this discussion of sort of cryptozoology and I mean, you know, I think that it’s likely that Sasquatch isn’t real, but you know, you can’t really say what is the, the saying like the lack of proof isn’t, you know, you can’t prove a negative or, or whatever it is. And so that’s kind of where I stand. Brian (48m 55s): I bring it up because, you know, I know some people who hunt and fish and spend a lot of time in the back country who have stories that, well they haven’t seen a Sasquatch. They have stories that lead to, to believe that they may have been in the vicinity of one. And they’re, they’re interesting stories. Now the simplest answer is usually the right one. Who knows what the heck it was. But to them it, it created a question. Mark Travis and I had a discussion a couple weeks ago and I was telling him, you know, when, when I was in school, you know, being an a DHD person myself, I really didn’t excel with the regular school system. I had, I had real struggles with this idea that we were gonna do something for half an hour and then we’re gonna switch. I wanted to get into something and just go for it. Brian (49m 37s): So I, they called it the gifted program, but essentially they would give us, you know, just a couple of projects for the whole year. And I remember I did a, a really deep dive on Sasquatch encounters, and this is pre-internet of course, but I got my hands on, you know, whatever I could find detailing Sasquatch encounters. I had this big map mostly with Pacific Northwest, you know, different types of markers, this type of encounter. Someone heard something, this was a footprint, this was someone who saw something, this was a kidnapping, which actually, you know, there used to be a few of those stories, but two things stuck out to me. The first was the geographical area where most of these encounters took place was your neck of the woods and my neck of the woods, the Pacific Northwest and the rugged part of the Pacific Northwest. Brian (50m 22s): And the second thing was in the early days of, of what I was able to access, you know, kind of just post turn of the century type of thing, you know, forties and fifties, those encounters were taking place with people who were, you know, foresters or hunters or fishermen, people who were in the back country by themselves or in small groups. So if it was a situation where, you know, their buddies were trying to have a laugh at their expense, someone had, would’ve had to go to a lot of trouble to, to fake these footprints and, and put them on this, this creek bed, you know, a 10 kilometer hike from the, the nearest cabin. So they, they had some credibility to me. But one of the other things about the Sasquatch stuff that is kind of neat is, you know, we don’t have videos. Brian (51m 5s): Never seen one. I’ve never seen a cougar. I spent a lot of time in the back country. I’ve never seen a cougar, seen lots of cougar prints, lots of friends who’ve seen cougars usually scooting across the road or what have you. I’m a hundred percent confident that cougars have seen me and I’m just lucky that they didn’t want to chew on my neck at that time. So maybe with Sasquatch is, if they do exist, you know, they see us before we see them. Travis, you put me onto a, a fun podcast I’ve been paying attention to lately called the Telepathy Tapes. And for anyone listening it, it’d be probably interested to go check that out. It’s a a pretty neat show and you know, maybe there is different ways that things can communicate and know what’s going on, but when we’re talking about a, a true missing person’s case, we also have to think of, okay, well what’s the most logical explanation? Brian (51m 52s): And in this situation, maybe Ron wanted to disappear. Is that a possibility? It’s kinda Jason (51m 58s): Where my head goes. Yeah. Well, and I think that goes back to what I mentioned earlier is that it’s definitely a possibility that will, I think, investigated, you know, as, as much as he could and, you know, as much as these other possibilities. And I think maybe there’s a little part of me that thinks there’s a little part of me that thinks that might just a little bit sort of edge out the other possibilities as being most likely, but just barely. And it goes back to, you know, none of these sort of explanations, you know, there’s, there’s no evidence for any, any one of them that is that really kind of makes it stand out from the others. Jason (52m 49s): And that’s what, and you know, there’s, there were lots of other things around the story that made it difficult to come to a conclusion. And, and I think something that will, and I, you know, we spent a lot of time discussing how to present the story in a way that was responsible without sort of, you know, without sort of making too many assumptions and, and trying to sort of, you know, really push the mystery aspect of it, will really wanted to just stick to the facts and, and not try to go out on too many tangents. And I think when you do stick to those facts, you know, you just come back to this feeling of, you know, what the f happened. Jason (53m 37s): And that’s what makes it so compelling. Even, you know, it’s been 15 years now since Ron disappeared and there’s, you know, it’s never gotten any closer to resolution. Will (53m 47s): Yeah, I mean, the hardest question, interview question that I asked, and all of the people I spoke to was to Ron’s wife Cindy. And I, I had to ask, you know, I had the, the journalistic responsibility to ask her if she thought it was a possibility that Ron simply walked away, you know, which again, it’s not illegal, people can do it, people have done it. But, you know, I asked her that question point blank, and that was the hardest question that I had to pose to anyone for this entire project. And, you know, she was steadfast and her belief that that was not a possibility, as did many other folk that I spoke to, you know, who didn’t think that that was a possibility. Will (54m 29s): But again, there’s no, there’s no evidence that that really points to it. But you can’t rule it out because there are, you know, other cases of people who have self engineered their own disappearances. And sometimes it’s successful and sometimes it’s not. And there are cases where, you know, people are either caught or they come back and you know it is, it is possible. 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You can head over right now to wet fly swing.com/on DeMar, that’s O-N-D-E-M-A-R-K on DeMar right now to book your magical Missouri River trip. Brian (56m 54s): I’ve always been obsessed with this, this idea of, you know, could I just walk off onto the woods, into the woods, disappear without a trace, reinvent myself somewhere else and never be found again. It’s really unfortunate. But there was a, a murder situation in Kitimat, which is south of Terrace years ago, and the gentleman that committed the murder walked off into the woods and no one’s seen him since. And it is a very remote part of the world. And, you know, did he hop a train? Did he build a boat? There’s also, if you know, talking about great books, Jason, you’re probably familiar with the Golden Spruce, right? Yeah. So that’s, that’s a pretty interesting story too. That gentleman was last seen getting, getting in his kayak and you know, no one’s seen him since. Brian (57m 36s): What, what the heck happened? So these, these missing persons cases where people disappear and with the idea that maybe it was self engineered, you know, how do you do that? But then we go back to the Sasquatch thing. Where do we see Sasquatch or where do Sasquatch encounters typically get reported? Well, it’s in these certain type of really remote terrain around Bella Kula, north of Harrison Lake, you know, exactly the type of places that if a Sasquatch did exist, that it could hide from people. So if a guy like Ron who is gonna stick out like a Sasquatch down there, 300 pound white guy, if he truly wanted to get away, you know, the first 24 hours is gonna be really crucial. He’s gonna need to get as far away from there as possible whether, and he’s gonna probably need an accomplice, right? Brian (58m 20s): He couldn’t have done that on his own. He would’ve need someone to come pick him up on his boat, right? Will (58m 23s): Yeah. I mean that, you know, to do something like that. And I, I’ve talked to, you know, I mean I talked to law enforcement, you know, the guy who investigated the whole situation who is from the Netherlands, and you know what he told me point blank was, number one, it’s massively complex and number two, it’s massively expensive. Those are the two things that, you know, would have to, you know, you know, you’d have to kind of solve for. One thing that makes it less complex is, you know, the proximity of where Ron was to the Belize border. I mean, that’s something that, you know, geographically, you know, I mean, it is right there on the border and I think I literally took a skiff from Belize up into that area and you know, there’s nothing really there. Will (59m 13s): So it is, the proximity to Belize is something that I considered at least that was, that was something there. But yeah, you know, it didn’t seem that, you know, at least from his wife’s per perspective, from Cindy’s perspective, that there was any like massive amount of money that was missing his passports were still in the hotel room. So, you know, it’s, again, as Jason said, you know, you just don’t know. Brian (59m 37s): So that book, the Golden Spruce, John Valent, I believe also wrote the Tiger Book, you know, two really interesting books, but they both kind of tie into with this discussion a little bit because the gentleman from the Golden Spruce went missing, whether it was an unfortunate accident at sea or whether or not he disappeared, no one’s seen him since. And then, you know, there’s the tiger thing, and geographically where that set is really interesting to me because it’s that part of Asia that looks similar to northern parts of British Columbia, but you’ve got cats now. A house cat is one thing, but you know, a seven or 800 pound orange colored tiger that hangs out in a, in a snowy forest, you know, cougars, cougars are scary. Brian (1h 0m 19s): But you know, that’s, you know, to me that’s like next to a polar bear. That’s probably the most terrifying creature there is. But those, those saltwater crocodiles will, are they something that you’re, when you’re fishing in these tropical environments, are they something that you’re concerned about Will (1h 0m 31s): A little bit here and there? You know, I certainly in Ascension Bay where I fished before and in Belize, you know, you see them, they’re not massive. They’re usually like tucked up in a mangrove and a lot of times we’re fishing out of a boat, so we’re, you know, we’re on the bow of a skif, so we’re not in the water per se. So you’re, you know, they’re not an issue there. You do, you know, you do think about them a little bit when you’re walking around a flat, you know, if you’re, if you’re covering a lot of ground on a flat, you know, you’re, you’re thinking about that a little bit. You’re also thinking about, you know, stepping on a ray. So you wanna have a bit of, of awareness always when you’re, when you’re out of the boat, that kind of thing. You know, lemon sharks, little black dip sharks, those kinds of things. Will (1h 1m 13s): But I did, you know, one thing, you know, I’ve never seen like a big, big one and in doing the research for, for this story, I did kind of go down the rabbit hole on saltwater crocs and, and attacks. And there’s a whole website that’s actually, they try to keep track of how many human attacks happen, you know, in Asia, in Central America, south America. And I did come across one video, I think I sent it to Jason of a crock down in Ascension Bay. That was massive. I had never seen anything like that. I know right where it was, it was like a, if you’ve been down to Ascension Bay and you cross the bridge south of Tulum into the area going down to Punta Allen, you cross this bridge and there’s a YouTube video out there of a crock. Will (1h 2m 1s): And I was like, wow. I had no idea that something that big was in that area. So, yeah, you know, kind of concerning. So, you know, spatial awareness, I guess, Brian (1h 2m 11s): Travis, when you’re out, out hunting, you know, obviously you’re, you’re the predator, but have you found yourself in situations where you felt that you were, you were actually actually the prey? Travis (1h 2m 20s): Sure, yeah. Yeah, A few times. I remember one time we were on a moose hunt, limited entry moose hunt. And I went up a couple days early, a buddy of mine who was organizing it doesn’t believe in dropping pins or GPS coordinates, he just gives kind of verbal directions of where this place would be hours out into the bush. And so I got a trailer in tow and I figure, you know, my son was, I think 11 years old at the time. I said, tell you what, I’m gonna take the side by side out, you drive it, I’m gonna give you a radio, you get ahead. I don’t know if I’m gonna be able to back this trailer down this place, but you know, we, we got some calms going here, we’re going through. He found a spot parked the trailer, sun’s going down. Travis (1h 3m 2s): And I mean, it got dark real quick. And as I’m in there trying to make some food for my son, a nice big black bear tries to get inside the, the back, the converted utility trailer that we’re, we’re sleeping in. So that was an interesting one. And I, I’ve had bears mama bear and, and cub 10 yards away from me. And you think you can get that rifle off your shoulder quick? Well, I don’t care how quick you are, it’s not quick enough whether that close, that one with the bear trying to get in, everything sorted out in the morning. We were checking it out. It had paw prints all around the side of the, the trailer ripped the seats outta the side by side. Travis (1h 3m 43s): I heard it doing that. I went out there with my shotgun and it, I had a head torch on which batteries were dying, barely illuminated the front side, couldn’t see anything but these giant glowing eyes. And it must have been up on its back legs on the propping itself up on the side by side. It turned out we had a gut pile right beside us in the area that we were camping in. And had we done a little bit more of a Iraqi around the area prior to, I would’ve said, this is probably not the best place for us to be setting up. We just popped ourselves right into an area which would be very enticing to a bear, which it was. So you brought up a bunch of different things that you’re talking about. Travis (1h 4m 26s): I took a few notes and I didn’t want to miss ’em ’cause I thought there could be some interesting points for the listeners. First one, as an aside, I think in Washington, I think it’s Spokane. There’s actually a law that says you’re not allowed to shoot Sasquatch. There’s no hunting allowed. And I think that was enacted because they didn’t want some guy in a costume to get shot at at the one of the areas there. They actually have something on the books about Sasquatch. I think there’s a lot of value to a debrief like this to like down the path provides where the general public can be made aware of situations where things have gone awry and maybe they can help bring closure to the family. Travis (1h 5m 6s): I don’t know if you guys have seen that Netflix series Don’t f with Cats, but this guy basically killed a few people here in, in Canada, but prior to it, he was a and torturing cats and he did it on the internet. And this online group dedicated their life and got more people in, not because of the people, but because of this whole cat situation that was going on. And they use Osint or open source intelligence to find, I think it was Luca, Magda I think was the name of the individual who was doing this. So huge power to the way that you guys are presenting just the information that you’re not tainting it with your own personal biases. Travis (1h 5m 46s): And I’d say that’d probably be a, a hard thing to do, Brian, you’re talking about going down and you fished too late and you ran into mama bear in the Cub, and whoops, there’s another cub in the security and law enforcement world. They call the rule of one plus one. If there’s one bad guy, there’s gonna be two. If there’s, if you find one weapon on a person, there’s gonna be two. And if non-security individuals can keep that mindset of one plus one, whoop, my spidey senses went off, there’s a threat or there’s something that’s outside of normal, look around, get your head on a swivel, where’s the second one? Maybe there isn’t. But that mindset will definitely help you. Travis (1h 6m 27s): And you talked about situational awareness. The listeners may or may not be aware of Colonel Jeff Cooper, who famously kind of put together some situational awareness protocol that the military was using. But he put into a color code system, white, yellow, orange, red, and black. And it provides a little bit of a mental and visual indicator for an individual and their own situational awareness. A situational awareness of white is essentially that of a victim. You’ve got the situational awareness of a victim, you’re the person on their phone, head down, walking down the street, you’ve got no clue what’s going on around you yellow, okay, we’re aware, we’re gutter heads up, we’re looking at what’s going on around us. Travis (1h 7m 11s): And that does a couple things that allows us to be aware of what’s going on. But it also sends a message to those two legged predators that you’re alert that you’re not a soft target. Orange you’ve identified a threat, red fight is on. And black would be, you’ve succumbed to what’s going on around you. You’re so overwhelmed, you don’t know how to respond. And the benefit of knowing black is if you find yourself in a situation where you’re that overwhelmed, you know, you can deescalate that, ah, I’ve identified ’em in black, I can bring it back down. So those are a few of the different points that, that I jotted down while you’re talking there. And then roleplaying, the other thing that people can do, what would I do if I ran into a bear? Travis (1h 7m 54s): I was, as I was coming down this trail, what would I do if somebody wanted to do me harm as I’m going back to my vehicle? The more we mentally role play and mentally prepare for these events that may never happen, the more likely we are to react in a way that’s gonna be beneficial to ourselves. Brian (1h 8m 11s): So to expand on that a little bit, and thinking about down the path, and specifically season two, the client there, you know, he really was, he wasn’t on his phone, but he, he really was pretty close to white there, wasn’t he? Will (1h 8m 24s): Yes, but I mean, I would say I’ve done that a million times, you know, not a million times, but quite a few times where, you know, there’s a level of, you know, trust that you just have to kind of put out into the world if you decide that you’re gonna go on an adventure or you know, a saltwater mission or whatever you wanna call it. And one thing I wanna point out is I don’t want, like, I never wanted down the path to do two things. Number one, I don’t wanna like scare people out of traveling and doing rad shit because like, that’s the opposite of what I wanna do. You know, I, I wanna encourage people to go out and to travel and to explore and find new species and do all those things that, you know, I think, you know, it’s at the heart of of travel. Will (1h 9m 7s): So I never wanted to do that. And number two, I never wanna scare people about some of these great locations like Belize or Mexico. I mean, I’m going back, I, I was just in Mexico like a month ago. I’m going back down to Mexico and a couple months from now. So I also don’t, I never want down the path to be some type of, you know, scare tactic for a certain location like Belize or, or Mexico or The Bahamas. You know, they’re great places. They’re wonderful people. These things are like one-off situations. You know, I, I can’t say that, you know Gary, you know that, that Gary Swank was a white ’cause I don’t know what was in his head at the time, and there’s just no, I mean, it’s like, that’s trying to be like, you know, you just walk across the street and you get hit by a bus, like, were you white? Will (1h 9m 54s): You know, were you in that kind of, you know, that situation I guess you got hit by a bus, you know, it, it’s that random of a thing. So I wanna, in defense of travel and you know, Gary Swank in that situation for sure, it’s just like, man, sometimes you’re at the wrong place at the wrong time and there’s no way that you would’ve known, you know, that kind of thing was going on when you booked somebody. I certainly wouldn’t have. And you know, I certainly have put myself in way, you know, more precarious situations than that. Brian (1h 10m 23s): Yeah. You wouldn’t, you wouldn’t expect him to quiz the guide and say, Hey, do you, do you have any type of beef with people that would involve them showing up with a firearm while we’re out fishing? Will (1h 10m 32s): No, you could never, never that. There’s no research that could’ve got you into that situ, you know, outta that situation other than, you know, you, you know, you make a diff totally different decision in the decision tree and say, Hey, I’m gonna go with a guide service that has been completely vetted by a, you know, by a travel company. Still, even if you do that, you’re not eliminating, you know, a hundred percent eliminating the risk. You’re just, you know, taking it down considerably versus just going with somebody that you’ve never come across before. Brian (1h 11m 2s): You know, with Jason and Will being super aware of, of how these stories and these situations transpired, has it affected the way that you travel and, and the decisions you make when you’re, you’re out in the back country fishing? Jason (1h 11m 15s): I’ll let Jason go. Yeah, I don’t know if these specific stories have, I mean, for one thing, I, I haven’t spent as much time in those kinds of locations as Will has, you know, my tropical fishing experience is a bit more limited. I’ve been to The Bahamas, I’ve been to the Keys, you know, but when I was in The Bahamas, I was with a pretty well known lodge and actually Andros South that I think Bain was a part of. And you know, I I would say that when I’m fishing closer to home or you know, around the west or up in bc, I think that my level of preparedness has to do more with just what I’ve learned growing up and, and just being in this area and knowing what some of the dangers are and knowing what it’s like to find yourself out in the woods after dark without a headlamp and how much the situation can just really change and really become a lot more difficult if you put yourself in that situation. Jason (1h 12m 22s): And another thing is, I’ve gotten a lot of this sort of preparation knowledge from my wife who is a mountaineer and an alpinist and who, she has this thing called the 10 Essentials, which is a part of her, you know, if she’s going to climb a mountain or if she’s even just going to go on a day hike, you know, she has these 10 things and I can’t remember that, you know, each thing, Travis, you might know exactly what the 10 essentials are, but it’s essentially, you know, have some way to make fire, have a light with you, have some form of navigation, have some food and water, you know, have a knife with you, you know, having just, and it’s something that it’s a little kit that you, you know, first aid obviously have this thing that you can easily grab and throw in your fishing pack anytime. Jason (1h 13m 14s): You know, if I’m just going to fish in town, I’m obviously not going to worry about that maybe. But if I’m going somewhere and I do, you know, one thing I really love about fly fishing is going and finding new places to fish. So I’m often going to places even within an hour or two of my home that I’ve never been to before, you know, up in the woods or on some river or whatever. And so I think, you know, having that thing that you can throw in your fishing pack and, and be prepared for, you know, things that might come up that’s really important. And then I think the other part, and Travis, you know, went into this, is just letting people know where you’re going, whether that’s friends or family or whoever, my wife, anytime she’s going on, you know, she’ll go and spend a couple days up climbing a mountain and in the climbing community at least they make these very, very detailed trip plans that explain when they’re going to start, what trailhead they’re gonna start at, what sort of route they’re going to be taking, you know, what would be the most likely sort of search and rescue agency that you would contact if they went missing when, when to contact search and rescue, if you don’t hear from them by a certain time. Jason (1h 14m 33s): And these things are very detailed and, and very long, and she does that anytime she goes out on one of these trips. And, you know, maybe might not need as much detail for a, you know, fishing trip to, you know, the upper hoe river, but still like some amount of detail and some amount of letting people know what your plans are and when you plan to be, you know, back in service and, and able to call somebody. And so that, you know, if you do, if something does happen and you’re out in the middle of nowhere with a broken leg, you know, 24 hours isn’t gonna pass before they, you know, somebody starts looking for you. Jason (1h 15m 13s): So I I, I think that for me has been the more, the more important part of it, you know, in terms of just thinking about being prepared for fishing trips and really any trip away from home where, where something can go wrong. But yeah, I don’t know will have, have you experienced that with, with reporting on this stuff and Will (1h 15m 35s): Yeah, I think, you know, like anything, right? Like, I mean I, you know, when you’re younger you do some things that are a little bit, you know, more wild and, and you know, carefree and you know, I probably wouldn’t operate in that same, or I don’t operate in that same manner anymore. You know, to the point of, you know, like the example I said, you know, talking to a bartender in Placencia and then getting a few names and directions and walking up and knocking on a door and you know, the next morning I’m out on a boat with somebody, I have no idea who that is. So like that kind of thing, you know, at this point. And, and part of it is technology, right? So now I love going to places where, you know, there’s not a lot of information about, you know, because there’s gonna be less fishing pressure, but I can do some things like, you know, talk to the person where I’m staying, Hey, do you know anybody? Will (1h 16m 25s): They might not be an angler, but they drive a boat. Okay, cool, you get a WhatsApp number, you make contact with that person. You might not speak that same language, but there’s Google Translate. And so you can start to like ahead of time, you know, create a communication and a relationship with the person you’re gonna go out fishing with and get a feel like, do they actually know what they’re talking about? Do they have, you know, do they have the right skill sets to take you where you want to go? And that’s actually turned out to be pretty fun. I’ve done that on a few trips lately where, you know, I might talk to a guy that I’m going fishing with two weeks ahead of time and we know what we’re going after, we know kind of where I wanna go, where I wanna explore what I don’t wanna do. Will (1h 17m 6s): And so that, that’s probably one of the biggest changes when I’m out, you know, in South America or Central America or you know, the Caribbean, that kind of thing. I do a lot more prep work with the person I’m gonna go with. So I think the answer is yes. And then to your point here, you know, up in BC I’m fishing a lot on my own now and I way over communicate with, with my wife Sarah, you know, I’m like, Hey, this is where I’m going, this is where I’m gonna be fishing, this is when I’m gonna come out. And, you know, and she’s always like, well, you know, I’m not gonna need this. And I’d be like, no, you’re probably not gonna need it, but you have it here in case I don’t show back up and that’s what I’m fishing on my own. So yeah, you know, you, you just start to be, to do those little things that, you know, kind of would contemplate a worst case scenario if something were to go wrong. Will (1h 17m 53s): And again, but it’s not like, you know, you’re not gonna not go fishing. So Brian (1h 17m 57s): Travis, it seems that, you know, when we, when we make these plans and we have this level of communication, and obviously Jason Mountaineers are, are doing this with the added consideration of, of weight, right? And, you know, they don’t wanna be stuck in the mountains for extra time. So when you make these plans ahead of time, what you’re doing is you’re facilitating a timely search or rescue effort, aren’t you? Travis (1h 18m 18s): Yeah, a hundred percent sure are. And you know, there’s always cool pieces of kit that we can bring along with us. There’s all, they got prepper forums, there’s all these different things that people can have. But I, I’d say the most important thing that somebody can have is some knowledge. And to be, to be forewarned is to be forearmed. If that’s, is that it is that even a saying, forearmed will, I really like your point about to not dissuade people, to not make them fearful from coming in and, and seeing these sort of events because with enough knowledge you’ll realize that these are sort of extraordinary situations. These aren’t the norm, but there are lessons that we can learn from this. Travis (1h 18m 59s): Now, if you’re out in a place where you can carry some sort of olem, capsicum or a bear spray, that’s a fantastic tool. ’cause it works on two-legged predators. It works on four-legged predators. If it means a difference between your survival or are we allowed to be using this on two-legged predators? They can, the states maybe in certain states and BC you can’t. But I know they’re saying I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by six. There are things that you can bring with you. One of the biggest things somebody can bring is just that communication piece. Our phones, our new satellite enabled phones, as of I was out hunting in an area with zero cell service and a pop-up kept coming up, do you wanna send a text with satellite? Travis (1h 19m 42s): Do you wanna send a text with satellite? I’m like, what is this thing? Right? I’m like, I don’t have any cell coverage. And, and my wife, she’s like, Hey, I’m sending a text message with a satellite with our new iPhone. I mean, there really isn’t a, a reason why nowadays why people can’t have some sort of a personal locator beacon or a, a satellite enabled communication device or their phone. I’d say that communication piece would be a, a very useful one for helping effective self rescue and pretty lightweight. Will (1h 20m 12s): And for the record, when I’m here in BC I typically have two bear sprays on me, one on my hip, one in my bag, and I did just self detonate one for the first time, like in my face takeout earlier this fall. So that was, that was pleasant. Travis (1h 20m 31s): Yeah, that’s not fun when you inhale. I actually detonated one in this podcast studio, but we were doing hot wing challenges and I brought out the bear spray in a bag full of wings there. But yeah, breathing that stuff in, never fun. Will (1h 20m 43s): No, no, no, no. Brian (1h 20m 45s): So Travis, you’ve had a, a wide array of podcast guests, you’re not really stuck on one, one theme. Can you give us some three or four of your favorites so that if anyone’s listening and they wanna check out the Silver Core podcast, we can kind of steer ’em to specific episodes? Travis (1h 20m 58s): You know, I don’t know if I can label my favorites because it gets difficult to be able to disassociate the before talk and the after talk, which of course, that’s where all the, the juicy tidbits tend to come out. The during talk can be very good. But we’ve had some amazing guests on here. We’ve had Navy Seals and Green Berets and SAS Operation Nimrod, where they stormed the Iranian embassy. We’ve had you on here. I mean, the Silver Corps podcast is really a story podcast, and it’s about people who are bringing positivity, they’re pushing their boundaries, they are bringing something into the world that’s gonna be interesting. Travis (1h 21m 38s): And learning about those personality types and finding out they’re just like you or I, they’re just putting in a little bit extra sometimes in different little areas. Brian (1h 21m 48s): Yeah, I got this actually, I, I referenced Richard earlier, Richard Harrington at the River Rambler Podcast, and you know, rivers, the River Rambler podcast in a lot of ways is similar to this one. It’s just talking to people who love to fish and getting their stories, but podcasting’s all about stories and, and Jason, your, your podcast takes that to another level because, you know, you’re, you’re talking to writers who, who write these stories. So it’s, it’s essentially, it’s kind of multimedia, isn’t it? Jason (1h 22m 12s): Yeah, yeah. That, you know, I did the Fly Tapes and now with the Fly Fish Journal, you know, this last summer we started a podcast getting into it a little bit late, but called Side Channels that it kind of picks up where the fly tapes left off. ’cause soon after I started the Fly Tapes, my wife and I had our, had a kid who he’s six now. But that kind of put a, put a bit of a damper on things back then. But yeah, and so with the Side Channels podcast now, it, it’s a lot of the same thing. And it’s like you’re saying, I think that people’s stories are so interesting and so compelling that, you know, there’s just no shortage of what you can do with the medium and, you know, the, the stories you can get and the conversations you can have. Jason (1h 23m 6s): We, I talked to David James Duncan this past summer, which was just a phenomenal opportunity. He was so gracious and, and so much fun to talk with. But you know, everybody else, whether it’s a famous author like David James Duncan, or you know, a fishing lodge owner in The Bahamas, people’s stories are compelling and their, their backgrounds and how they got to where they are. And that’s, that’s what I love about it. That’s what I’ve always loved about podcasting as a medium. I mean, obviously I love the, you know, the, the sort of investigative journalism side of it too, like Will did with Down the Path. But, you know, my, the thing that I always fall back on is these, you know, more conversational interviews and just learning about people. Jason (1h 23m 51s): People are endlessly interesting to me. And, and I I like to find out what makes ’em, what makes ’em tick. Brian (1h 23m 59s): And your magazine and, and obviously magazines these days, there’s less of them than there used to be, but your, your magazines, you know, are, are still, still thriving. What is it about Fly Fish Journal that sets it apart? Is it, is it the writing? Is it the photography? Or is it the, the combination of both working together? I Jason (1h 24m 16s): Think it’s definitely the, the combination of both working together. So, you know, I’m, I’m the editor. I’m essentially responsible for the words, and then my colleague, Kobe Vota is the photo editor. And we work really closely to curate each issue and curate, you know, the stories and the photography and or art that will accompany each story. We put a lot of effort into that. And I think the thing that really sets it apart and sets any print publication apart that is still thriving and still doing well in this day and age, is creating something that you, you want to hold it in your hands. Jason (1h 25m 5s): You know, you’re creating something that you don’t want to look at on a screen. If you’re looking at it on a screen, something is being lost or, or it’s something that can just easily be found online. And so what’s the point of, you know, buying a physical object? And so we’re, you know, I we’re, we’re making something that the best way to experience it is holding it in your hands, sitting on your couch or sitting next to a river around campfire, wherever you’re reading it, you, you want to be flipping through it and having that tactile experience with it. And I think that, that, yeah, bringing it back, the, the combination of those two things together, the, the visual and the the words are really what has allowed us to, you know, keep going and, and keep thriving. Jason (1h 25m 54s): And it’s what makes it fun. I mean, I, even now, I don’t get to see each physical issue before anybody else sees it, because I don’t, I don’t work up in Bellingham where, you know, it’s made and where the, it gets shipped, so it gets shipped, each new issue gets shipped to me. And even though I know what is in each issue, I still get excited to get it in the mail and open it and hold, you know, look at the cover and flip through it and, you know, all this stuff that I’ve read, you know, maybe dozens of times by the time it comes to me in the mailbox, you know, it still is exciting to me because it’s this, you know, it’s this great physical thing that our team has worked really hard to create and it’s thanks to contributors, I I should say, like Will, will, has contributed since the very first issue of the Fly Fish Journal like 16 years ago, will has been a regular contributor to the Fly Fish Journal. Jason (1h 26m 54s): And it wouldn’t be without people like Will and the many other writers and artists and photographers who go out there and find the stories and write the stories and take the pictures and make the art. It wouldn’t be, you know, possible without the just wealth of creative people that the fly fishing world has. So thanks to them as well. It, it’s a fun job. I’m, I’m a pretty lucky guy, you gotta say. Brian (1h 27m 23s): So for your subscribers, how many issues do they receive each year? Jason (1h 27m 27s): Four issues each year, and I believe that we now, if it hasn’t started at starting soon, but subscribers now too, so you get four issues each year, spring, fall, winter, summer. And then you also, if you’re a subscriber, get digital access to our entire archive, I believe, don’t quote me on that, but I’m pretty sure that’s what we’re doing now. So, you know, you might read something from Will in a issue coming up and then think, man, that, you know, that was a great story. I wonder what else this guy has done. And you can go back to, you know, volume one, issue one and see the story that Will did there in like 2009 or, you know, 2013 or whatever. Jason (1h 28m 9s): So that’s a great feature that, you know, we’ve been working really hard to digitize it all so people can have that access if they want to go back and see. And, and there’s still back issues available to purchase as well. So, but yeah, four issues per year. Brian (1h 28m 25s): So essentially that’s evergreen content at that point, right? Jason (1h 28m 28s): Yeah, that’s definitely what we shoot for. We’re, you know, we will hit sort of current events here and there, you know, conservation topics are often a little more, you know, temporal and, and whatnot. But a lot of the content really is very evergreen. You know, there’s stories that I love to go back and read from, you know, 10 years ago or, you know, six years ago. There are stories that they still resonate. And that’s definitely, definitely the goal is, is evergreen content rather than really hitting the sort of current event type thing. Brian (1h 29m 7s): I’ve got one of my most valued possessions, so I am 51 years old, born in 1973, and I remember as a young kid, you know, always being obsessed with Phish. I got a picture in my office of, of me at four years old holding my first trout that I caught in Okanagan Lake while we’re kone fishing. And I, I remember the lures, I remember, you know, we were trolling, spinning, glows for the KI remember the bright colors. And I just, I’d get excited to go to Woodward’s to the tackle section, you know, I was just obsessed with fishing. And my dad had a collection of old fishing and hunting magazines. I think there’s a few different ones mostly about BC not like Western Fish and Game. And some of these would have these great illustrations in ’em, photography for sure. Brian (1h 29m 50s): But great illustrations. And the illustrations somehow stuck with me more than the photographs. And there was a style of journalism that was present in these older magazines that was very much about an adventure. It was like a, a travel log of a trip that someone made and, you know, it just, it took you on a journey. And I still have these magazines, you know, from the fifties, sixties, seventies, and, and a rubber made. I go back to them and, you know, the way they, I can smell ’em right now, the way they smell. You know, I’ll never throw these things away. And the problem with, you know, reading stuff online is, it’s not the same, is it? So to produce a magazine or a journal, a book, something like that, that you’re going to, you know, treasure and hold and keep going back to, you know, I think one of the things at the lodge that it has to happen organically over time, but one of the things that gets better every year at the lodge is our library. Brian (1h 30m 41s): Those days when the river blows out or people aren’t fishing and you know, they go find some interesting stuff and, you know, I don’t have those magazines in the library ’cause I’m, I’m not quite willing to share those just yet, but, you know, but I do have a bunch of other magazines. We talked Jason about Tom Perrow’s magazine and I had Tom on as a guest. Actually that episode just came out today. If anyone’s wondering the timeline on this stuff. That episode, here we are in January. That episode just dropped this morning. That’s Tom Perro and John McMillan and Tom used to produce this, this really cool book, I’ll call it a book, it was a magazine, I believe it was called Wild Steelhead Atlantic Salmon. And it, it was like 16 inches by 12 inches or something. Brian (1h 31m 23s): It was like bigger than a, it was a cumbersome magazine, but, but it really created this, this really neat vehicle to transport you to these far off places with these large photographs and everything. I imagine it was horrifically expensive to produce and cumbersome to ship and all the above and that’s probably why it was short-lived. But, but I have a bunch of those and we do have those in our library and I know our guests love to, to dip into those. So, so I really appreciate anybody, Jason, like yourself who’s, who’s documenting the culture and doing it in a way that’s tactile rather than, you know, just online. And I mean, I, I wonder about all this stuff online, you know, know, we, we snap all these photos on our, on our iPhones and maybe we look at ’em again and then they go off, they disappear into the cloud. Brian (1h 32m 5s): There’s so much clutter up in space or wherever they keep this stuff now, right? And meanwhile, in the old days, you’d take a photo and you’d keep that thing, you’d write on the back who it was and you’d go back to it. So it’s this sort of disposable media stuff is, is a little unsettling. And I, I think at some point maybe we will go back to, to actually printing, printing photos. Travis, I know you’re a big, big gear guy. This is something I I noticed about Silver Core. Obviously you’re, you’re training people, but you’re always kind of early in on any new technology. Is there anything that you’re carrying now in the back country or fishing that people might be interested to hear about? Travis (1h 32m 40s): Well, calm device, I mean I’ve, I’ve done the GPS mountaineering, backcountry skiing, really your, your phone’s gonna be the thing that they’re getting better and better. They’ve got their waterproof, their IPX ratings, so that would be the one thing that’s generally always with me. And now that it’s got satellite comms available with it, I always carry a knife. Doesn’t matter where I am in the world, I’ll have a knife very often I’ll have a flashlight with me too and which could be used as a striking object if I’m concerned about two legged predators. I will research the laws for the knife and I’ve never had to use it other than a tool, which I’ve used it as a tool a heck of a lot. Travis (1h 33m 23s): I think. What am I carrying right now? It’s a spider co PM two, one of their, their their newer steels. Aside from that, I try to go as minimal as possible if I’m going out into the back country, I really like what Jason was talking about, have a little bit of a kit that you can just grab and go with you. I’ve always got something in my vehicle. I’ve got a first aid kit in my vehicle. I’ve got the ability to stay warm if I need to, some sort of shelter, some hydration, be able to fix up injuries if I have it, be able to light a fire if I need to be able to do that. But all of the cool kit in the world, again is pretty useless if you don’t have the knowledge. And so being able to learn ways to start fires as minimally as possible and then carry the nice little piazzo igniter torch so you can get something going. Travis (1h 34m 11s): But the knowledge piece would be the one that I would encourage people more so than all of the cool kit, even though it’s easy to get stuck in that trap. Brian (1h 34m 19s): So investing in training is investing in yourself. Travis (1h 34m 21s): Training’s available everywhere. The, we just happen to curate it. You can go on YouTube and you can find everything for free. You can go on the internet and go through AI and start finding these things are free. I think the reason why people will pay for training or they will, the reason we even have influencers out there is ’cause they’re information concierges. You say, I like that person, I like what they have to say. I don’t have to sort through all of this other stuff in order to find out. I can likely trust their opinion on it. But yes, training would be what I would say would be the one that I would recommend to people. Brian (1h 34m 53s): Excellent. And will you, you’re talking about some upcoming fishing trips, some warm water, salt water stuff. Are you gonna be writing articles about these trips or is this pure recreation? Will (1h 35m 2s): I typically can find a story in a lot of my, my travels and fishing. And so it always kind of depends on, on what happens. I do have a trip coming up to Mexico again that I’m looking forward to, which is gonna be really focused on trying to catch a permit, which I’ve been really challenged with over my, over my lifetime, let’s put it that way. But, but yeah, so you know, usually, usually on those trips I can some something needle happen and, and my philosophy is that if something fun or interesting happens that, you know, I think other people typically are interested in hearing about it and you know, that kind of thing. Will (1h 35m 43s): So I try to keep it pretty simple. But yeah, I’m sure, I’m sure my words will continue to be on pages at some point. They better be. Brian (1h 35m 52s): Before we wrap up, I’ve gotta hit each with a question and we’re gonna talk a little bit about the fishing that you’re looking forward to doing in the coming year. But before we jump into that and, and there’s no way we can put a bow on it because it’s a great unknown. Are there any final thoughts about Ron Shera and will we learn more or is, is, is all the information we’re gonna get out there already? So let’s start there. Will, Will (1h 36m 16s): You know, I put it out there in the podcast, you know, an invitation to anyone who knew Ron, who might’ve been down in Ishak in April of 2009, who had any information, it’s still an open invitation. We could have a conversation on the record or we could have a, a conversation off the record, which means that, you know, I wouldn’t, you know, it would be in confidence. That is an open invitation. I continue to go back to see if anything ever pops up. But right now, I I kind of, I’ve exhausted my, my efforts I guess with what I’ve tried and who, you know, I always, I always end my interviews with people asking two things. Will (1h 37m 1s): I I always ask, is there any questions that I should have asked you that I didn’t ask you? That’s one. And then I always ask, who should I talk to? Who else should I talk to? Who else might know something? And I, I feel, you know, that’s a good way for me to always wrap up my interviews. And based on that I kind of, I got got to the end of the road and I’d love to hear more. If anybody has more information out there and you can still submit thoughts and ideas or questions through the little info at, there’s a spot on the website at down the path podcast.com where you can, you know, if you have information or you have questions, you can submit it anonymously as well. Will (1h 37m 44s): So I’m very open to it, but at this point, you know, my efforts have kind of ceased unless something pops up. Brian (1h 37m 51s): So Jason, what I I I hit you earlier asking you if you’d got any, any comments, theories from, from people who checked out the article online and obviously same to Will. I was hoping someone was gonna tell me that they, they’d seen this guy down in Chile or something, you know, fishing for Brown trout in Patagonia. There hasn’t been anybody any reported sightings has there, there Will (1h 38m 11s): Was one reported sighting in 2010, I believe, down in Argus Key Belize. And that was actually, that’s what brought a law enforcement officer from the Netherlands all the way to Belize to investigate that. And there was no, no conclusive identification made there at all. So that’s it. Jason (1h 38m 33s): Yeah, I forgot about that. When I think about the story and how inconclusive it is, I think about Ron’s wife in Texas. I don’t know if she’s still in Texas, but you know, if anything it would be great if, if she could get some closure and you know, just kind of know what happened. And I, I think that’s, you know, there’s a, there’s a few, I mean not a few, but you know, there’s people out there who really cared about Ron and for those people at least aside from hopefully Ron is alive somewhere, but, you know, just allowing those people to get some closure, I think it’s easy to kinda forget how much this story I is their story as well. Jason (1h 39m 20s): And that’s a real big part of this tragedy. So Brian (1h 39m 24s): We’re here talking about it essentially for education and maybe entertainment. But yeah, there’s a real human element to this And it is a tragedy and you know, you like to think that the guy’s waiting a flat somewhere casting to, to permit hiding out. But you know, that’s, that’s probably not the case. But I would encourage anybody listening to go, go check out the episode, check out the online story. It’s really, really well done. And like I said, it was, it was really my introduction to, to podcasting and that style of podcast. So here’s what we’re gonna do. I’m gonna abandon my questions I was gonna ask you ’cause Will, your questions are so damn good. I’m gonna get you guys to, to each answer the, the questions that will put out there, but I also want you to tell me two things. Brian (1h 40m 6s): The first is the phishing you’re looking forward to doing this year and second if anybody wants to connect with you, anyone wants to get a magazine subscription, book some online training with Travis, check out Will’s new article, how do they get ahold of you? Will, we’ll start with you then we’ll go to Jason and then we’ll go to Travis. So I’m, I’m hitting you with your own, your own two interview wrap up questions. Go for it. Who should I talk to next and what should I ask you that I haven’t asked you? Those are great questions. Will (1h 40m 31s): Oh man. Well you can, I’m on Instagram, I just kind of plot along there with some photos and such. That’s will underscore rise. RIZE, not RICE so will underscore RIZE Instagram. And probably the best way, if it’s like a down the path thing, go to down the path podcast.com and then you can submit a, you could submit a question there and I always, always, always write back, I’ve never not written someone back. So you will definitely get in contact with me if you submit through that, through that little forum on down the path podcast.com. Brian (1h 41m 9s): Okay. And so you, the questions for you, what should have I asked you and who else do you know that I should be trying to get on here? Will (1h 41m 15s): You should have asked me, Hey Will, do you wanna come up and fish the cheena? And I would, I would say yes, Brian, yes, that would be the answer to that question. And then, oh, who else should you talk to? I don’t, geez, I gotta think about that Babababababa. Oh, so many, so many great people. You mean for your podcast for this? Brian (1h 41m 39s): Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. Who, who else should we have for a guest? Will (1h 41m 42s): Oh gosh, you know, a guy who’s got a gazillion stories and you could just have ’em on strictly to talk about Brown trout is Kirk Dieter great guy, definitely has helped me out along the way. He’s in one of the episodes of, of Down the Path. He, he does a reading for me in the, in the podcast, but he’s got a gazillion great stories and probably caught more brown trout on more continents around the world than anyone else I know that I could kinda speak to. So yeah, Dieter is an awesome, awesome guy. Also, I would say Jason brought him up a great buddy of mine, Voda who is the, he’s the what photography director there at at FFJ Photo Jason (1h 42m 29s): Editor. Will (1h 42m 30s): Yeah. Get coppi on the show. Coppi Rocks. Brian (1h 42m 33s): Right on. And you know, you talked about your upcoming saltwater trips, but what other fishing trips do you have planned this year that you’re looking forward to? Will (1h 42m 40s): Well, I’m interested to get, to get up and do some steelhead fishing here in bc. Really looking forward to that. And then, you know, yeah I got, I got a trip, the salt trip coming up in, in May and then just, you know, maybe getting over and exploring some of the islands that are close by. I don’t talk about where I go too much. Jason (1h 43m 2s): Yeah, yeah, Will (1h 43m 4s): We’ll leave it at that. Brian (1h 43m 5s): Beautiful, right on Jason, so same two questions for you. Jason (1h 43m 9s): Well, I don’t know what else you could have asked me. I, I, this was a lot of fun. So thanks for Will (1h 43m 15s): Jason. Do you wanna come and fish the Chena with Brian and I? Yeah, Jason (1h 43m 19s): I’ll, I’ll take, I’ll take Will’s question people to talk to. I, I, my good friend another fly fish journal contributor Greg Fitz who he, he’s down here in Olympia as well. He’s one of the best steelhead anglers I know and works for Trout Unlimited kind of West coast. Really great guy, great stories, great mind for conservation and a lot of the conservation issues up and down the west coast. I think Great would be a good guy. If you haven’t had Dylan Tona on another fantastic storyteller. Dylan is full of stories, he’s spent tons of time up into your neck of the woods over the years. Jason (1h 44m 1s): I mean, he goes up there every fall. Dylan’s a great guy. So yeah, I think that’s a, that’s a couple people that I would, I would recommend chatting with. As far as fishing coming up for me, I’m actually going to Argentina next week for the first time. Really looking forward to that. I’m going to Terra Dego for Sea Run Browns and then up to Jurassic Lake for a few days. So I’ve got that going on a little, little further afield. And as far as just kind of closer to home, looking forward to just fishing some of my home, you know, steelhead Rivers, whose names I won’t say and, and just getting out and the local flows. Jason (1h 44m 42s): Yeah, yeah, just, just getting out and, and looking for a couple steelhead this season, hopefully that I won’t lose. I’m, I’m very good at losing fish, so I’ve got new hooks this year and new techniques and I’ve been just really not wanting to lose fish this year. Brian (1h 45m 3s): Okay. You brought it up. I, I gotta, I gotta ask, what are these hooks you’re switching to and, and what are your techniques? Because one question I have asked a lot of our guests, especially guides, is what do you do when a steelhead grabs your fly? The best answer to date probably came from, from Dax Mess, who I believe most of us know. And Dax is great answer was, you’ve worked really hard to get this bite, don’t interrupt this fish. So Jason, what, what techniques are you gonna try to hook more fish and not lose them? And what are these crazy new hooks you’re talking about? Jason (1h 45m 33s): The hooks were recommended to me by Greg, who I just mentioned. The, it’s the Gam Kasu big River bait hook. So I don’t know if you’re familiar with that one. It’s got kind of a more of a angle to the hook bend rather than like a circular hook bend. It’s got a little bit of that kinda angles down and then angles back in, is the best way to describe it. So I’m gonna be trying those out. Greg recommended them. I think, I mean, I think, you know, losing fish probably is a little bit of bad luck. But I think, you know, one thing I could probably do better is just in that initial 10 seconds or so of hooking a fish, just, you know, keeping cool, keeping my rod down and to the side, not moving, not backing up, not lifting the rod up, you know, just staying planted where I am and waiting for things to unfold. Brian (1h 46m 32s): Great advice. So lastly Jason, someone wants to get a magazine subscription or learn more about Writers on the fly or just connect with you of course. Is there a way they can get in touch? Jason (1h 46m 42s): Yeah, the Fly fish journal.com. Of course, the Fly Fish Journal on Instagram as well. My stuff Writers on the Fly is kind of a, a side project of mine and probably the easiest way would just be to look for writers on the fly on Instagram. I think it’s writers underscore writers on the fly with underscores in between each word. But just search writers on the fly. I’m, I’m not on there a ton, but you can get a good sense. And then the website is an old website URL that I’ve never changed, but it’s, you know, the, the website itself is somewhat up to date. It has a lot of information, even some films that have been made about writers on the fly. Jason (1h 47m 25s): And it’s syzygy fly fishing.com. It’s S-Y-Z-Y-G-Y fly fishing.com. So a lot of info there. One more time, Jason, for the listeners, that one just S-Y-Z-Y-G-Y fly fishing.com. Brian (1h 47m 44s): Right on. Okay, Travis, these questions, same questions for you? Travis (1h 47m 48s): Sure. If they wanna get ahold of me, silver core.ca, that’s a website or you can just google my name or the word Silver Core. It’ll come up, you can see the podcast. We on all major platforms. I can’t think of what you could ask me. I can’t think of a question better than what will brought up. I think I’m gonna be lazy and I’m gonna default and I’m gonna mirror what Will said there. Looking forward to coming up and fishing in the schema there with you in, in the not too distant future. Other people he should talk to on the Bear thing, interesting fellow, he is, one of my earlier guests was Colin Dowler, might be one that you want to get up there. He fought off a grizzly bear while in the grizzly Bear’s Jaws. Travis (1h 48m 28s): He was able to get his pocket knife out and stab it in the neck while it was just destroying him. Massive injuries. And then he crawled back, he says, you know, the worst part about it was the, how painful it was to crawl on the gravel back to his bike. He almost gave up there and then he got on his bicycle and uses one good lake to pedal back another seven kilometers and help affect his self rescue. So that might be an interesting one for your listeners. Amy Batam. So if go on social media, if you wanna laugh, I think it’s Amy Fly Fish is what her social media handle is. She’s like a female Russell Brandt. She is hilarious. New into the fishing world and really taken it by storm and I think would speak to a different demographic than what you’re typically speaking to. Travis (1h 49m 18s): So that might be an interesting thing for you as well. Upcoming trips, of course. Yes. Fishing zipper, mouth Creek here in, in bc but I was invited over the big island. I’ve never been to the big island. I’ve hunted and fished on most of the other islands over there in Hawaii. So I was invited to hunt over there. I always throw in a pair of flippers, mask and a snorkel. I learned I can use a little bit of silicon on the mask and actually make a seal with a mustache. So that was kind of nice to learn. And I just bring a stinger head and I find some bamboo, chop it down, make a little Hawaiian sling with some surgical tubing and they, and some paracord. Travis (1h 49m 59s): I really enjoy snorkeling and and fishing that way. Brian (1h 50m 2s): Right on. Well, hey guys, this has been a fun discussion slightly outside of the norm of, of how in the Bucket episodes typically go where we talk about click and pull reels versus drag reels. But I’ve truly enjoyed this and once again, I encourage anybody listening to, to follow up three really fascinating guests today, and guys really generous with your time. And yes, I would love to invite each of you up to the lodge. Woo-hoo. A silver Core hosted Week. Writers on the Fly and Artist in residence, you know, will Rice. Will (1h 50m 31s): There we go. Brian (1h 50m 33s): And, and hey Will, we’re in. Thank you for sending me those photos. Will, when I took you out fishing, I brought my dog Rayen and our, our new pub’s quite similar, so it was a nice trip down memory lane to receive those from you. Yeah, Will (1h 50m 42s): That’s nice. Well I appreciate the, the casting lesson. Brian (1h 50m 45s): Yeah, right on guys. Thank you very much. Thanks Travis (1h 50m 48s): Brian. Thank you. Brian (1h 50m 51s): Well, that was a bit of a different episode, wasn’t it? I wanna thank Will Jason and Travis for sharing their stories and expertise with us today. Thank you to everyone tuning into the show. I hope you’ve enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. I would encourage the folks listening to check out the podcast shows that Jason, Travis, and Willie host, I want to also take a moment and throw out additional thanks to those listeners that have reached out on email with comments and show ideas. I appreciate your feedback and ideas. Please keep ’em coming. You can reach me directly on email at info@skeenaspay.com. You can find in Theb Bucket Podcast online at www in theb bucket podcast.com. Brian (1h 51m 32s): If you’re on Instagram, you can follow us at in Theb Bucket podcast. Look for the next episode of In Theb Bucket Coming Your Way in the first week of June. Until then, I’m Brian Ska and you’ve been listening to In Theb Bucket Podcast, brought to you by the Wetly Swing.

Littoral Zone #17 | History and Tying Techniques of Balanced Flies with Jerry McBride

Balanced Flies

In this episode, Phil sits down with the guy who helped create Balanced Flies—Jerry McBride. You’ll hear how the balanced fly came to life, the gear that made it work, and why this style of fly has become a Stillwater staple.

If you’ve ever fished a balanced fly under an indicator—or just wondered what the big deal is—this is the origin story you’ve been waiting for.

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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

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History and Tying Techniques of Balanced Flies with Jerry McBride

When Phil Rowley first came across a balanced leech nearly 20 years ago, he didn’t expect it to become one of the most influential flies in his Stillwater arsenal.

It was early in his 20-year tenure as a fly-tying columnist for BC Outdoors Magazine that Phil was introduced to a Balanced Leech by Trevor Shpeley. Little did Phil know back then how this would change his approach to fishing in Stillwater.

Today, balanced flies are his go-to pattern for lakes across Canada, the U.S., and even South America’s Jurassic Lake. If he could only choose one Stillwater fly, Phil says it would probably be the Balanced Leech.

You’ll find Trevor’s Balanced Leech featured in Phil’s book.

Balanced Flies
Photo credit: Bob Vanderwater

About our Guest

Jerry McBride grew up in Spokane, Washington and got into fly fishing thanks to his dad, who was an avid outdoorsman. Jerry has been at it for around 70 years now. He first learned to fish with old gear he found in the basement (think floppy bamboo rod and an automatic reel).

He spent his summers fishing at Deer Lake, where his dad built a cabin. Jerry also taught himself how to tie flies using a basic vise and whatever materials he could find.

Jerry’s been a proud Inland Empire Fly Fishing Club member since 1975. The club was founded in 1956 and is packed with experienced fly fishers who love to share tips and stories. Jerry even won the Letcher Lambuth Award, just like Phil. He believes every fly angler should join a club because it’s where you really learn the ropes.

The book Flies of the Northwest started as mimeographed pages passed around by the Inland Empire Club. Over time, it evolved into six editions and became a big moneymaker for the club. Although it’s no longer in print, Jerry and Phil agree it still holds up today.

Balanced Flies

The Bionic Worm

Phil remembers the first time he saw Jerry tying a Bionic Worm. It had a hot pink tail, a bright orange bead, and was tied on a gold hook—definitely not your usual chironomid look. He admits he was skeptical, but it turned out to be a fish magnet, especially in deep, dark water. Jerry also gave credit to his late friend Ron Pantzer, who actually created the Bionic Worm.

Want to see how it’s done? Watch Phil tie the Bionic Worm on YouTube:

Balanced Flies

Jerry explained how the balanced fly concept came to life. He and a friend started with woolly buggers, chironomids, and bionic worms, experimenting with different subsurface patterns.

One day, fishing with a peacock glimmer fly, Jerry’s friend caught 70 fish, and Jerry matched him fish for fish. While balanced flies aren’t always necessary, Jerry was happy to hear that Phil and Brian Chan tested them, and the balanced version outperformed the regular fly on the water.

Balanced Peacock Glimmer

Where Did the Balanced Flies Idea Come From?

It all started at a weekly lunch group Jerry jokingly called the “Still Liar’s Club.” One of the regulars, a dentist named Al Cunningham, had been trying to design a balanced fly. He handed Jerry some panfish jig hooks and said, “You’re an engineer—figure it out.” So Jerry did.

At first, he tried adding flotation to the hook bend, but it was too inconsistent. Each fly needed hand-tuning. So he flipped the idea: add weight past the eye to balance it instead. Using sewing pins, brass beads, and a bit of lead, he got it to work—sort of. The jig hooks bent easily under a decent trout, and wet thread caused the bead and pin to fly off mid-cast.

Eventually, Jerry landed on a much better setup: Mustad 3906 3X strong hooks, tungsten beads, and superglued thread wraps. He started tying classic patterns like the Pheasant Tail Nymph, Hare’s Ear, and the Six Pack.

Since the flies rode upside down, he skipped wing pads and tied them “in the round,” a style often used for soft hackles. The Six Pack worked well, probably because of the olive-yellow color from picric acid-treated pheasant tail.

Fun fact: Jerry shared the whole backstory of this fly in Fly Tyer Magazine back in 2006. It was his only published article, and he even got a Fly Tyer hat from the editor.

Read Jerry’s original Fly Tyer Magazine article here:

What Beads and Pin Sizes Work Best for Balanced Flies?

Jerry prefers using ⅛ inch beads because they’re heavy enough for casting but not too hard to manage. Larger beads, like 5/16 inch, can be a pain to throw and sometimes slide off the pin. He also mentioned using a heavier-duty pin for bigger beads to prevent that from happening.

Tip: For extra durability, Jerry uses UV resin on his beads. It helps the paint on the beads stay intact, especially when fishing in tough conditions.

Jerry also mentioned Tim Flagler’s new balanced fly pattern. Tim uses a squirmy wormy-type technique, where he melts the end of a thick monofilament to create a flat head that fits snugly into the bead.

Watch the video here:

Balanced Flies Resources Noted in the Show

Balanced Leather Leech

Developed by:  Matt Winkler @ Charlie’s Fly Box Arvada, CO

  • Hook: Daiichi 4640 (Bronze), 4647 (Black) or 4699 Barbless (Black) 60 degree jig hook size 10
  • Bead: 1/8” Tungsten Black Nickel
  • Pin: Straight pin cut to length – after securing pin to hook, coat the thread wraps with super glue
  • Tail: Black Winkler’s Leech Leather from Charlie’s Fly Box
  • Dubbing: Arizona Simi Seal Black/Purple

Balanced Orange Mop Fly

By Jerry McBride 2/5/2025

  • Hook: Daiichi 4640 (Bronze) 4647 (Black) 4699 Barbless (Black) Size 10
  • Thread: 8/0 Orange
  • Bead: 1/8 Orange Tungsten (after mounting on hook coat with UV resin)
  • Pin: Straight pin is cut to length. (After securing it to the hook, coat the thread wraps with super glue.)
  • Tail: Orange Mop Finger
  • Body: Orange Mop Finger unfurled
  • Collar: Micro Polar Chenille Hot Orange by Hareline Dubbin, Inc.

Balanced Peacock Sparklebugger

By: Jerry McBride

  • Hook: Daiichi 4640 or 4647 Heavy Wire 60-degree jig hook or equivalent size 10
  • Thread: Black 8/0
  • Bead:1/8” Tungsten black nickel
  • Pin: Size 20 1 ¼” Dressmaker pin cut to length or ¾” Applique pin
  • Tail: Black marabou
  • Tail Flash: Two strands of gold Flashabou on each side of Marabou
  • Body: Peacock Cactus Chenille
  • Superglue:Crazy Super Glue

Olive/Yellow Pheasant Balanced Filo Bugger Recipe

By Jerry McBride

  • Thread: 8/0 Olive
  • Hook:  Daiichi 4640 (Bronze), 4647 (Black) or 4699 Barbless (Black) 60-degree jig hook size 10
  • Bead: 1/8” Orange tungsten (Coat bead with UV resin after lashing to hook for durability
  • Pin: Straight pin cut to length. (After securing pin to the hook, coat thread wraps with super glue
  • Tail: Hareline Wooly Bugger Marabou Yellow Olive WBM386 or marabou part of dyed pheasant rump
  • Tail Flash: Two strands of gold Flashabou on each side of the tail
  • Body: Olive/yellow aftershaft feathers (filoplumes) from a pheasant rump patch twisted into a loop and palmered along the hook shank. 
  • Tying Note: Aftershaft feathers are the narrow-stemmed feathers under the rump feathers.  As an alternate, use the marabou part of the dyed pheasant feather from the rump patch placed in a thread loop, twisted and wrapped onto the hook shank.

History and Tying Techniques of Balanced Flies Resources Noted in the Show

Stillwater Flies with Phil Rowley & Friends

Balanced Flies Related Podcast Episodes

Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below

Episode Transcript
Phil (2s): Welcome to the Littoral Zone podcast. I’m your host, Phil Rowley. The littoral zone, or shoal area of the lake is a place where the majority of the action takes place. My podcast is intended to do the same, put you where the action is to help you improve your Stillwater fly fishing On each broadcast. I, along with guests from all over the world, will be providing you with information, tips, and tricks, flies, presentation techniques, along with different lakes or regions to explore. I hope you enjoy today’s podcast. Please feel free to email me with your still water related fly fishing questions and comments. I do my best to answer as many as we can prior to each episode just before the main content. Phil (48s): Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoy today’s show. For close to 20 years, I’ve been the fly time columnist for BC Outdoors Magazine. Early in my tenure, BC Fly Fisher, Trevor Spile introduced me to a novel fly called a Balanced Leach. Little did I realize how this initial introduction would shape my approach to Stillwater flies and how I fished them. In my recently released book, tying Flies with Phil Rian. Friends, you can find Trevor’s balanced Leach. I’ll make sure to include a link to my book in the show notes. A balanced lech has become one of my go-to flies. If I had to choose one Stillwater fly pattern to fish with, it would probably be a balanced leach. Phil (1m 30s): My favorite color combination features a body of black and blue dubbing or bruised, as I call it, in combination with a gold tungsten chartreuse, tungsten fluorescent pink tungsten, or hot orange tungsten bead. Balanced flies have performed well wherever I’ve had the good fortune to fish in Eastern and Western Canada, across the United States and into South America. Argentina’s Lago Strobel, also known as Jurassic Lake, has rainbows that adore balance leaches. Come to think of it, the giant cutthroat of Nevada’s, pyramid Lake love balance, leaches too. Since that initial introduction, I’ve been fortunate enough to meet Jerry McBride, one of the patterns originators. Phil (2m 13s): Jerry resides in Spokane, Washington and is an active member of the Inland Empire Fly Fishing Club. Over the years, Jerry and I have developed a great friendship. I recall Jerry joining my group I hosted to a trip to Manitoba. Jerry provided a memorable tying demonstration featuring some of his favorite balance flies for me and the other group members. I felt it was essential to talk to Jerry to learn how the balance concept came to be and how he ties his balance flies. In a future episode, Jerry will provide us with his presentation techniques, equipment choices, and favorite leader setups. If you’ll wanna learn more about balanced flies, these episodes will get you on the right path. Phil (2m 57s): So, hi Jerry. Thanks for taking the time to join us today. For those of us who don’t know who Jerry McBride is, I know I do. I know you do. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself? Where do you live, how long you’ve been fly fishing, how you got into fishing, all of that kind of stuff. Jerry (3m 12s): Okay. Well, I was born and raised in Spokane, Washington. I went to grade school and high school here. After high school, I went to Down to Pullman, Washington, Washington State University and got a degree in mechanical engineering. I met my wife there at Washington State University and right outta school we got married and I went to work for my first engineering job in Beloit, Wisconsin. So we moved back there. We were there for like five years. Then moved back to Central Washington. I worked for engineering jobs several places in central Washington. Jerry (3m 54s): Eventually managed to get my back to Spokane in 1975. Went to work for a company called Re Pearson Company as a managing the engineering department. Eventually became the plant manager there. Retired in 2000. My wife and I have two sons. They each have two sons, so we have four grandsons. I guess that’s probably kind of about it as far as, and I currently live in Spokane. I was very fortunate to be able to move back to Spokane, ’cause Spokane didn’t have a lot of offer, a lot of engineering jobs when I graduated. Jerry (4m 38s): But I was very fortunate and managed to spend quite a few years there fishing with my dad. He and I were pretty much a hundred percent fishing partners, both streams and lakes. As far as, how long have I been fly fishing, I’m guessing approximately 70 years. I was very fortunate that my dad was a very avid hunter and fisherman and he was very willing to share his knowledge and so on with me. So I went fishing and hunting with him. Plus the other benefit was that I, he had a whole bunch of gear, old gear in the basement so I could drag some of that out. Jerry (5m 26s): And that’s what I did to get started. I had a, a bamboo, real floppy, heavy old bamboo rod with a automatic reel and started throwing that around. And my folks had a place up at Deer Lake that my dad built. So every weekend, pretty much we were at Deer Lake. And during the summer, my stepmother and I would stay all summer and my dad would drive back and forth to work. And I, I guess I didn’t realize how lucky I was. I thought every kid did that. But, so I went swimming and fishing and rode the boat around and did all kinds of stuff. Jerry (6m 12s): I found a, a, some fly tying equipment in the basement, a vice real rudimentary vice and bobbing and so on, just, and, and a little bit of, you know, materials. And so I dug that out and basically taught myself how to tie flies, you know, how to start the thread and so on. I don’t know whether there was a whip finisher there or not. I, I don’t recall now, but I don’t know if I could have taught myself how to use it. Anyway, as far as more recent times I won the Let Your Lambeth Award you dug years out. Jerry (6m 53s): So here’s mine. Phil (6m 54s): Yeah, we’re both, we’re both for blessed to be winners of that. ’cause there’s some, there’s some pretty good names on that plaque, isn’t it? Jerry (7m 0s): There’s, oh, you got yours there too. Yeah, I, I Phil (7m 3s): Got mine too. It doesn’t have other award winners, but it’s got me and you, so that’s good, isn’t it? Well, I was, I think Brian Chan is on there, I think. Oh yeah, I think Harry lame. Yes. And I’m sure I’m missing some other well recognized northwest fly fishers. Jerry (7m 19s): Yeah, I was extremely honored that I was in that kinda company that, that I would win an honor like that. Five of us from the Inland Empire Fly Fishing Club have won that award over the years. One guy for his paintings, the other three for Rod Building, Phil (7m 40s): Do you know their names? Do you remember their names? Jerry (7m 42s): Well, let’s see. Gene Lawrence and did the paintings. I don’t remember ’em right at the, right now. Phil (7m 51s): Well, if they pop up, we can give ’em credit, but that’s great. Now, you’re also a member of the Inland Empire Fishing Club. You’re a member then, and that’s, yes. That club’s got a lot of history to it, doesn’t it? Jerry (8m 1s): Yes. They started in 1956, and I’ve been a member since 1975, so I’ve been a member 50 years. When I showed up in Spokane in 1975, I thought it was a pretty s scum fly fisherman, or part of that was a, I was a young, relatively young man, you know, young man kind of think pretty highly of themselves. Anyway, in short order, I realized I had a lot to learn and, and which I did learn from members that had fished all over the world and were, you know, just really expert fly fishermen. Jerry (8m 44s): I, I, I encourage people to join the fly club. You’re, you’re instantly, I mean, like our club probably, it’s got thousands of years of experience, people that are there and, and people are willing to share their, their knowledge and so on. And anyway, I, I’m a, a big proponent of joining fly clubs. Phil (9m 8s): That’s how I got started. I was with the Osprey fly fishers, like you had mentioned. I was young and thought I knew everything. Turns out I knew little or nothing, but just to be surrounded with those years of experience and it’s just a great learning environment, isn’t it? You’re, that’s all we’re talking about is fly fishing, fly tying and telling stories. It’s a great atmosphere to learn. And you, Jerry (9m 28s): You know, you learn, I mean, if you do any reading about retiring, one of the things they tell you is to have something that’s a passion that you can pursue that gets you out socializing with other people and gives you something to think about that you kind of ponder. My wife is a, a genealogist and she’s, that’s her passion. So in fact, she was on Zoom earlier today with her genealogy club. They were talking, you know, I keep telling her, all you guys talk about is dead people. Phil (10m 6s): Yeah. We’re not there yet, are we? Jerry (10m 10s): Anyway, she kind of, it rolls her eyes At times when we spend, I spent a half hour talking with somebody about a Carmed pattern or something. She, so that’s my comeback is, that’s all you guys talk about is dead people. Phil (10m 29s): Now the Inland Empire Club is also, you guys have put a book together that was big. You know, I I I had early in my development and that was the flies to the Northwest, right? Correct, yeah. And how many editions you said that had in it? Jerry (10m 43s): Six editions. The first edition was like a mimeograph, just a bunch of mimeograph sheets that were circulated among the club members. Fenton Ross Kelly, who is a well-known outdoors editor and, and was the outdoors editor for the local paper here. The spokesman review kind of lent kind of a professional approach to it. And anyway, I’ve, I don’t think I have the first edition, but I have like second through the sixth and, And it was a real, at one time it was a real money maker for the club. Jerry (11m 26s): I’ve gone to, you know, outdoor shows, fly fishing shows, and met people actually from all over the world that had additions of that, of that book. We talked in more recent times about doing another edition, but as books are not very Phil (11m 51s): Well, they still work, Jerry (11m 52s): They still work fallen by the wayside. Unfortunately, they Phil (11m 56s): Have stood the test of time. I know I’ve got two, at least two editions of that book. And when I was, you know, starting out tying, that was one of the books to have if you lived in the Pacific Northwest. And me growing up in British Columbia had to have that. But it’s no longer in print anymore, is it? So you’d have to find it off Amazon? No. If you could find it. No. So I’ll see in the show notes, I’ll see if I can dig it out, look on Amazon, see if I can find it. And if I can, we’ll be sure to put a link in there so if somebody’s interested in picking that book up, which of course you and I would highly recommend they can do that. Yes, Jerry (12m 25s): Yes, of course. Your book, I think I’ve probably sold quite a few of ’em a year. Your patterns for Still Waters. Phil (12m 33s): Yeah, that one’s outta print now too. That one lasted 20 years, I think. And then, like you say, everything has a lifespan, so I guess you’d have to look for that on Amazon too. I, I get asked, but I I’m, I have no copy. I have one copy that’s mine. That’s it. Jerry (12m 48s): Yeah. I tell people if you want to, you know, if you want to know what kind of flies to fish in this part of the world, both the Pacific Northwest and bc, that’s the book to have. Phil (13m 2s): No, it’s, and those flies of work, just like flies of northwest, you’ll find fish don’t seem trout especially don’t seem to know any geographic borders or things like that. So if it looks like food, they’ll eat it. So now you we’re gonna talk about lake fishing today and bounce flies, but one question I gotta ask you is of course lakes, and I know you fish rivers, do you have a preference between the two or they each their own, they have their own thing? Jerry (13m 25s): I don’t know that I have a preference, it’s just that I do because it’s more available and so on. I fish lakes more than I do, but I fish over in Idaho. We’ve got two streams there that we fish on a regular basis for cutthroat. And I really enjoy it. That’s probably the most of the time that I get a chance to fish dry flies. Yep. My, my friend that I fish with Lee Funkhouser is he’s gotten to be quite a nymph fisherman. And typically he’ll catch twice as many fish as I do. Jerry (14m 5s): I’ll run through with a dry fly and he’ll come back through the nymph and catch way more fish. But, and I’m not against nymph fishing, but I I, if I get the opportunity, I’d fish a dry fly. Phil (14m 18s): Well, especially for cutthroat. So, but Jerry, we, we, we got you here today ’cause of what you contributed with the development of balanced flies. And that personally for me, that fly has proven to be a revelation and has really changed my approach on how I fish a variety of subsurface patterns, both under indicators or not. So why don’t we walk through how you came up with balance flies and then of course I think our listeners or my listeners are gonna want to know how you fish them because everybody fishes them a little differently. And I’d be interested to know your thoughts on how you like to fish ’em, your rods, your lines leader setups, presentation tactics, et cetera. But let’s circle back around and let’s talk about, you know, how did you come up with this concept? Phil (14m 60s): What staring at an indicator and just thinking that’s how some of mine come about? Jerry (15m 5s): Well, we, we start out fishing wooly buggers and stuff under, you know, we, well, we started out with Chrons and bionic worms and we had the idea to fish woolly buggers that would That work? And it did. There’s a, a local lake here, a friend of mine and I, he, he’s a real counter kind of guy. Well he is passed away now, unfortunately. But he was, he and I were in different boats with, you know, other people. But one day there a fly that we were, which I sent you a peacock glimmer and one day there he caught 70 fish and I think I pretty well matched him. Jerry (15m 52s): I mean, we just got fish all day long on that fly. So they don’t necessarily have to be balanced. However, I was kind of made me feel good that you said that you and Brian Chan actually did a test early on. Yep, Phil (16m 10s): I remember Jerry (16m 10s): That. And I mean, I don’t know that that would science stand up to scientific scrutiny. Phil (16m 18s): Probably not, but it worked for us. Jerry (16m 20s): But, well, I, I liked the result 2 (16m 26s): Since 19 72, 4 wheel campers has been building rugged, lightweight campers designed to fit almost any truck and every kind of adventure. Whether you’re keeping it simple like me with the Project M or gearing up for full-time off the grid travel, there’s a four wheel camper built to match your lifestyle. You can head over to four wheel campers.com right now to use the builder tool to find your perfect topper. Slide in or flatbed camper for your next journey. Located in Boulder, Colorado, Intrepid Camp Gear is dedicated to designing and manufacturing the best and most highly engineered automotive camp gear on the market. Intrepid Camp Gear specializes in rooftop tents and aluminum cargo cases designed for skis, rods, hunting gear, and any other gear you may be hauling. 2 (17m 9s): Elevate your adventure with intrepid camp gear right now. Head over to wetly swing.com/intrepid right now. That’s intrepid I-N-T-R-E-P-I-D Intrepid camp gear. Phil (17m 23s): Yeah, and for those who don’t know, Brian and I, were doing some, when we do our schools together, we like to try and a fish together and B, spend a little bit of time on the water before students arrive so we have some measure of what’s going on and, and that was, I was just starting to experiment with your balance fly concept and, and we were both fishing the same pattern under an indicator. One balance and one knot and the balance version on that day. Certainly out fished the regular version. Now you know, I know when I go down to Argentina and you’re fishing in four and five foot swells, I’m not so sure a balance fly may make that difference ’cause that poor fly is just being jerked and all over the place, up and down and side to side. But I firmly believe in it. Phil (18m 4s): So, but you did mention, it’s funny ’cause you mentioned one fly there, the bionic worm. And I think it’s appropriate to tell this story ’cause I remember you, I can’t remember what show you and I met up at. You were tying bionic worms and you gave one to me. And I gotta admit I gave you a rather skeptical look because Jerry’s bionic worm marbut tail, it was tied on a gold hook at the time. I think one of those, yeah, with Beit hooks with vri and a hot, it was a hot pink tail and a hot orange bead. Now that’s an atypical carotid larva color. And I freely admit, I kinda look went okay, that’s not terribly natural looking. But rest assured that fly is a killer, especially in when the waters are a little deeper and darker, those fluorescent colors really stand out and that it’s a must have pattern in the CID section of my fly box when they’re focused on CID larvae that even when they’re, they’ll just eat one ’cause they see one. Phil (18m 60s): It’s a great fly. So in additions to your bounce flies, Jerry, thanks for the bionic worm. And I’ll put a link to the bionic worm in the show notes as well so everyone out there can follow it. But let’s get back to bounce flies. I just wanted to give you the credit for the bionic worm. Freely admit, I was a little skeptical. Jerry (19m 18s): The one thing I need to say is my friend Ron Panzer is the guy that came up with that. He and I knew each other from high school. He passed away last October, but, Phil (19m 28s): Oh, sorry to Jerry (19m 29s): Hear because I get around a lot more than him and showed people the pattern and so on. And people thought I was the one that came up with it. But I wasn’t. It was my friend Ron. And I still remember the first time we fished it, we were at Chappa or no, we were at ESE Lake. It was my dad and I and my friend Ron and another guy by the name of Bob. And anyway, Ron, we weren’t doing much of anything, so Ron said, Hey, I tied something new and he, he had four of ’em. We gave each one of us one and it was like magic. I, it was just unbelievable how good it worked. And I mean, we had fish jumping and carrying on And it was, and fortunately he and I both brought our tying stuff. Jerry (20m 14s): We tied up some more the that night and went back out. And anyway, over the years, I don’t fish it as much as I used to. I, and I think it’s, I don’t know, I feel kinda guilty about that actually. But anyway, it was like magic how well it worked. It Phil (20m 33s): Still is today Jerry, so I recommend you pull it out again and fish with it. Jerry (20m 38s): Yeah, we, we, we got, I got quite a kick outta it ’cause my dad and I were at Chika and Fenton, Ross Kelly I mentioned earlier was there and he wrote up a little article about my dad and I and he, and put it in the paper. He didn’t name us or anything, but it said this father and son pair were the only ones catching any fish on a fly that doesn’t resemble anything in nature, you know, Phil (21m 6s): But that’s a good thing sometimes I Jerry (21m 8s): Think. And Fenton was also the guy before that, he was poo-pooing using an indicator. He thought that was a travesty. So anyway, dad and I show up at L Lake and there’s Ross Kelly, he’s, he’s an indicator and he’s got a bionic work. Phil (21m 30s): Your work was done. Anyway, alright, so let’s circle back to the balanced fly. What, okay. How did that come about? Jerry (21m 38s): Okay. Our fly club group has had a, a lunch group, mostly retired people get together every Tuesday. In fact, I’ll go tomorrow and we’ve gone to variety of restaurants over the years, but they call them Sell the Liars Club. And in fact, I think maybe we’ve had you there. Phil (22m 1s): I have been there Jerry (22m 2s): Still Liars club. I don’t know whether we allowed you to tell any stories or not, but, Phil (22m 8s): Well, you know, they would’ve been lies that would’ve fit right in Jerry (22m 12s): Anyway. There was a guy by a dentist by the name of Al Cunningham and he, he had been trying to come up with a balanced fly. He, I think a lot of people had the idea that if, if the fly was more like what a, the bug was in the water, that it made sense. Yep. And anyway, he gave me a bunch of little nickel plated jig hooks that like were made for panfish and said, you’re an engineer, figure it out. Jerry (22m 52s): Okay. So anyway, that got me thinking about it. So the first thing I did is I tried flotation. I thought, well, I’ll put a little bit of flotation on the bend of the hook. But I very quickly came to the conclusion that you would literally have to tune each and every fly that you tied Yeah. To get it to set right. So then of course the other end and, and having, being an engineer and taking physics and so on and went well, okay, go out beyond the, the eye on the other end and balance it that way And it will balance whether it’s in the water or in the air or whatever. And so I got my wife, some of my wife’s sewing pins and I just had brass beads, but I took and tucked some lead inside the counter board on the, and got it to balance. Jerry (23m 47s): And, and so then I tied some on those little jig hooks. Well they worked very well, but you know, about a 14 inch trout would just straighten them right out. Yep. And the other thing that I very quickly ran into was you’d go to casts and you’d go, that doesn’t seem right, you bring it in. Well, the pin and the bead were gone because the, and what I concluded was that the thread got wet and lost tension and so then the, the bead, the pin would just come out. So that’s when I started. So anyway, I went, I went to that must add 39. Jerry (24m 29s): I already had some must add 39.06, which is a really good hook And it’s three extra strong but down eye type hook. And I started tying them on those and got tungsten beads and started super glue in the thread wraps. And the first patterns I tied were mostly traditional patterns like the pheasant tail nymph and the hairs, ear six pack, some of those type patterns. And of course, very quickly you realize that since they run upside down, that putting like a wing pad on on the inside of the hook doesn’t make any sense. Jerry (25m 14s): But what I found was that they were, all of those patterns found patterns in books and stuff that were tied in what Joe Brooks called the in the round. Yep. And so it, that’s how I tied them. It’d be kinda like a soft tackle Yeah. Type pattern. And of all those, that six pack worked the best and I think it was because of the color that’s used, you know, pheasant tails treated with ric acid. Yep. And it gives it kind of a unique color that the problem with pric acid is that if you leave it sit around and it gets into a crystal in form, it’s very sensitive to any kind of movement or anything. Jerry (26m 3s): And it’ll explode and burn, burn your house down. Phil (26m 7s): Well that’s good to know. So hopefully none of our listeners are going out right now on Amazon and buying pick rick acid by the truckload. Jerry (26m 14s): But, but anyway, now there are, I don’t know how they do it, but they’ve come up with dyes that more or less replicate that, that color. Phil (26m 23s): It’s kind of a yellowish color, isn’t Jerry (26m 25s): It? Yeah, it’s kind of a olive yellow yellow, Phil (26m 27s): It’s perfect looking color. And that, for those that don’t know the six pack, it’s tired entirely with pheasant tail and pheasant rump, isn’t it the whole, yes. I think I was taught, it was called a self bodied carry I think was, Jerry (26m 38s): Yeah, it’s a takeoff from a carry special. And anyway, of all the, all the patterns I, I would say that was the most successful in the first go around. And then I started tying more or less wooly bugger type patterns. And then I did that peacock glimmers, a il that’s a mix of, of peacock green and black. And that’s one of my go-to flies today. Yeah. In fact I sent you a picture of that. Yeah, Phil (27m 15s): No, we’ll, and we’ll be sure to include that picture in the show notes as well. So you started with the down eye hook and I did the same thing when I was first introduced to this fly. And the one problem with that is that if you’re not careful, you can bury that hook eye. I always joke, you have a wonderful balanced fly, you just can’t tie it on. So those are the ones you give to your friends who say, you never give me any of your fly patterns. Jerry (27m 39s): Yeah, well my friend, my friend Lee gave him one of those and so he stuck the tipt through and tied a, a fixed loop knot and, and cast. Well what he didn’t realize, he just went through the, the chane, he didn’t actually get it through the eye. The wooded cast the fly just kept running off the door Phil (28m 0s): Going. So you went to jig hooks as well, right? That was the pardon? You went to a jig hook as well back to the jig hook. Jerry (28m 11s): Yeah, well I think that was one a year. I guess something in my mind, a couple of things that, that you contributed to this one was the, the jig hook and the other one was because of your commercial tying background, you brought some kind of measurements, kind of common sense measurements to how to tie the fly. Yeah. Which I thought made a lot of sense and, and certainly contributed. I guess that’s one of the things that I would say that just about anything that we do is kind of built off of what has been done in the past. Jerry (28m 50s): In this case, my friend Al Cunningham got me thinking about this. And then you made reference here to this Fly Tires bench side reference. Phil (29m 3s): Now you’d mentioned that to me in a previous conversation Jerry (29m 6s): By Ted, Ted Leason and Jim Scho Meyer, two big names in Fly Tank. Phil (29m 11s): And that’s a great book, isn’t it? It’s, there’s a lot of information in that book Jerry (29m 15s): Anyway in that book. And I think maybe it was a glass bead or something, I don’t remember. But anyway, he was lashing a bead to a hook to the shank of a hook. So that’s where I got the idea that to do that. So again, like I say, these things kind of one thing builds after the, the other. And I do would mention that your first choice on the, on the jig hook was, well let’s put it this way, the, the daiichi are a lot better. Phil (29m 45s): Yeah, they were, I I started with another brand of hook because like there wasn’t a lot of small jig hooks out there to find in a, I think the smallest I could find was a size 10. And they were designed primarily for panfish croppy sunfish pretty soft mouth fish. But a trout would, they could straighten them out, you know, pretty quick. Especially if you’re using heavier tipt. So when, you know, jig hooks became more and more popular in fly fishing, I think probably due to Euro nymphing now we have a whole host of long shank short shank, big small jig hooks at our disposal. And, and the reason I went to the J hook, like you mentioned is, is is for no other reason than when you finish the fly, that hook eye is above the body of the fly and I can see it to tie it on. Phil (30m 28s): So I don’t do what Lee did and think I had it tied on and threw it across the lake when it wasn’t. I’m not sure. Jerry do you get asked, you know, people often ask me a 60 degree or a 90 degree. I always tell ’em it really doesn’t matter. It’s just that that eye when you finish the fly is sticking up nice and visible so you can see it. So you can tie it on with the loop knots we both like to use. Jerry (30m 49s): Yeah, I think the, I think the 60 degree is more available than the nineties. There seemed like the nineties are kind of limited in size and so on, so, but yeah, I don’t think it makes any difference and I, I was quite impressed that, you know, you were talking about using that same hook on fish at Jurassic Lake. My god. Phil (31m 15s): Yeah, those, I’ve used the, the Daiichi 46 forties, which are a bronze finish. They make a 46 47 that is a black nickel. And now they’ve got a 46 99, which is a black hook barbless and it’s got a nice round bend. The other two have kind of a limerick bend. Right. Which holds very well. But they stood up, you know those down there, you know the fish size is disgustingly big, you know, I’d say 12 to 15 pounds and you’re fishing 16 pound tipt and with a big fish like that and that kind of tipt, the weak spot becomes the hook and it’ll straighten. You can probably tell me better as a mechanical engineer why I just, two big things, you know, the tip, it’s not giving and the fish isn’t giving. Phil (31m 56s): So the hook has to take the brunt of that And it ends up bending out as well. So that’s sort of why I become a, a big fan. But there’s other good hooks out there though, but I, I highly recommend those hooks. The other benefit to these flies too is they ride upside down, don’t they? So they’re, they’re really weedless. Jerry (32m 10s): I I think that definitely cuts down on the, the time you virtually never hook a fish in the gills and you know, typically you hook ’em in the kind of the roof of their mouth or, or even just in their lips. So it’s Phil (32m 26s): Very fish friendly Jerry (32m 27s): And the, and of course it, it’s somewhat weedless, it’ll pull through the weeds. You know, typically I try to fish above the weeds, but sometimes you encounter a weed, it’ll, it’ll slide over it rather than hang up on it. Phil (32m 41s): Well I’ve also, I know you design these flies to fish under indicators, but more and more I also just cast and stripped them on sinking lines and a variety of lines. ’cause they’re basically a little jig. So they’re riding hook point up, they got that seductive pitching motion. I’ve used them on bass over a wheaty rocky bottom without, you know, an indicator and they land on their nose right on the bead and hop up and they look like a regular bass fisherman’s jig or a ned rig and work very well in that regard too. So they’re just not an indicator fly. But you also had all the work you did and I think it’s important to let everybody know you actually had an article published in Fly Tire Magazine and I remember reading it and unfortunately that magazine, every issue is new stuff and you, you know, not everything sadly registers all the time. Phil (33m 29s): But that was a great article. I know you sent me a copy of it and I’ll see if we can, you took copies of it and I’ll see if we can get that in the show notes as a, something for people to read because there’s some great information in there on, on, on the history and how you came up with that fly. Jerry (33m 43s): Yeah, it was actually, I more or less developed this fly in 2003 and I thought, well maybe I could write a, this is the only magazine article I ever wrote in my life. I did consult with Fenton Ross Kelly, who was, you know, a professional writer and he helped me anyway. I’ve submitted it to Fly Tire Magazine in 2004, but it didn’t show up till summer of 2006. So I don’t know exactly. Anyway, I, I did go back to the editor and I said, well hey, Phil (34m 23s): Remember me, Jerry (34m 24s): Do I get anything? I mean I wasn’t expected to get paid. Yeah, but he sent me a hat. Yeah. So I have a fly tire hat. Phil (34m 33s): That’s ironic ’cause my first article I ever wrote, I had made submissions to some Canadian magazines and they didn’t seem interested. And then I approached Fly Tire Magazine the same way ’cause it was Fly Tire and American Angler, they were the same publisher. I believe they were the FI think it was Fly Tar. No, it was American Angler. But anyway, they, that was the first publication that ever took a a risk on me as a writer. So we shared alumni there. Jerry (34m 60s): Yeah. There is a even more extensive who is Fly of the Month for what was Federation of Fly Fishers. And I don’t recall now the the date on that, but there’s an even more extensive writeup that the guy that was doing Fly of the Month for was Bob Bates here who was a member of our long, longtime member of our fly club. He was doing that for anyway. So I kind of had an in there to get it into that. Phil (35m 36s): Are 2 (35m 36s): You an avid angler looking for the perfect fly selection or perhaps you’ve just started out fly tying? Smitty’s Fly Box offers a monthly subscription service that delivers a range of flies. Fly time, materials and fishing accessories. They tailor their selections based on your fishing location, ensuring you get exactly what you need. And Smitty’s isn’t just any fly supplier. They’ve been in business for over three decades delivering quality and expertise. I can personally vouch for their quality having picked up some dry flies and they were perfect. It’s a perfect time to stock up on flies for your next adventure. Check out their offerings at smitty’s fly box.com, buy subscribing. You’re not only getting top-notch flies, but you’re also supporting a small business that has had a significant contribution to the fishing community. 2 (36m 21s): Remember that’s smitty’s fly box.com and let ’em know you heard about them through this podcast. Phil (36m 29s): So let’s go back. We talked about the bead choices, brass versus tungsten and I, I think most people know that, but tungsten’s twice the mass of brass. Right, right. So it’s just a less of a, an extension needed and and readily available. You started on using a common sewing pin. Is that of all, are you still using that today or are you Jerry (36m 47s): Well I, I kind of went with the, I went with the sequin pins for a while. You kind of got me going on that. But what I found was that I don’t think they’re long enough and at least I had some problems with them getting bent and tearing out the, the, the thread wraps. So I’ve gone back to a regular sewing pin, which has a bigger head. So if you, what you’ll encounter with some like eighth inch beads is those sequin pins they’ll pull right through. That’s Phil (37m 25s): True. You don’t get a lot. Jerry (37m 27s): So anyway, I’ve gone back to the bigger pin and cut it to length and I don’t really have any problem. I mean I maybe once or twice a year or something I’ll cut my thread but that really isn’t a problem. You know, where, where you cut the bead and it’s much stronger pin and I I I make a point of lashing at the, right at the, the 90 or 60 degree bend. I make a bunch of wraps there and then right on the, almost on the end where the, where it’s caught. ’cause those are the two leverage points and then go real heavy or well then put some super glue on it. Jerry (38m 7s): Yeah. And, and I also do a thread dam behind the bead to hold it in position and put some super glue there also. Phil (38m 16s): Yeah, I, I used to do that and then I started, and I guess it’s just a commercial, as you mentioned, the commercial tire in me was, it was just eliminating steps. So the cutting of the pin was a step and putting the bead with the thread behind was the a step too because we’re putting the beads on. I think it’s important to tell people we’re putting the beads on so that the wide open tapered end pushes up against that bead head and kind of envelops the pinhead itself. So I was just using the body materials. Right. You know, the tying process to push that up because I used to do that. I used to actually cut the pins, put the beads on, build up a thread dam behind the bead to lock it in place and I’d kind of build them in production style. I cut all the pins, then I would put all the beads on and put the thread dams on and then I would lash that assembly to the hook and then I call that whole thing a chassis and glue it and set it aside and then come back when that’s all dried and then start tying the fly. Phil (39m 8s): So Yeah. Yeah. Jerry (39m 9s): Well I I, I do the whole thing on the hook, you know, I lash the bead to the hook and, and then just run up in front there and, and yep. The thread dam One, one thing that I wanted to mention about beads is your painted beads like pink and orange and chartreuse and so on, they’re all painted and what’ll happen very quickly is the fish their teeth chip those Yep. Chip the paint Phil (39m 38s): On or my bad casting. Jerry (39m 41s): So what I, what I have come up with, which works really well is I put some super glue on there, on the coat coat the, the bead was super glue and what what I do now is I build chassis just like you’re talking about and I’ll super glue ’em and set ’em aside and I kind of set ’em in in order. So then I take the one that I did first Yep. And put it back in the vice and super glue the, or not super glue UV did I say super glue? Phil (40m 12s): Super glue, but UV resm Jerry (40m 14s): UV resin on them and I found that the bead paint stands up much better. Phil (40m 21s): That’s a great tip. Do you have any bead sizes you like to use Jerry? I tend to use like the one eighth on Jerry (40m 27s): The side pretty much. One eighth Phil (40m 29s): Is, yeah. ’cause it gets heavy. They’re, they’re heavy to chuck after a while when you, I I know I’ve seen, I’ve been, I had some of your members out to when I used to do my trips to Manitoba and I know you joined me out there one time and, and were gracious enough to actually tie a balance fly for everyone on a less than great weather day. And I have a picture of that that I use in my presentations of you sitting at the table at Arrow Lakes Lodge tying those flies. So, but I know they were using some, were using five sixteenths and those are just not a fun thing to throw. Jerry (40m 59s): Oh yeah, I think five, yeah. Five 30 seconds. Yeah, Phil (41m 4s): Five 30 seconds. Yeah. They’re not fun to throw. And they also will slide over the pin heads sometimes as well. Jerry (41m 9s): Yeah, of course. If you use the bigger pin that’s, well in fact I even have some heavier duty pins. Yeah. One of the things that I do haven’t done so much lately, I do what I call a Google eye type balance fly where I take needle, nose blos and, and bend the pin at about a 45 or so and then slide the bead on it and so then I put two on there. Phil (41m 35s): Oh I see. Yep. Jerry (41m 36s): I think you’ve probably had some people tell you about Rufuss woods. Yep. On the Columbia River and a lot of times they’re fishing right next to the commercial net pens and there’s a certain amount of feed that gets through. So there’s a bunch of fish on the outside of the pens hanging around and we fish there with under indicators about 10 foot under an indicator. And what you wanted is to fly to, to sink real fast ’cause you get a fairly limited drift. Anyway, so I tied up some of those with 2 5 30 second beads and anyway, on the back cast it had one hit me in the face that a, a weld on my face for about two weeks afterwards and kind of went, you know, I think maybe I’m gonna quit doing that. Phil (42m 27s): People must have thought Maybe you’ve made one too many dead person comments to your Jerry (42m 31s): Wife, but, but it’s, it’s like we’re in like 50 feet of water there. Yeah. And these people that show up there to fish, you know, with bait and so on. They go, you guys aren’t gonna catch anything. But we catch a lots of fish doing that. I could tell you. Yeah. Phil (42m 47s): I’ve also used Brads or Escu pins, they’re called small nails basically. Jerry (42m 53s): Right. Phil (42m 54s): They’re short though. That was the only drawback to them. They’re, they’re not always easy to tie in but the few times I’ve used larger beads, it was just simply finding something with a bigger head on it that the bead didn’t slide over the end of the pinhead or the head of the nail in this case. Jerry (43m 9s): Yeah. Your friend Tim Flagler, he flag, he just came out with a new pattern. It’s tied, it’s kind of tied with squirmy wormy type, I dunno whether you’ve seen that one or not. Hmm. It’s a balanced fly he uses, you mentioned monofilament, he, he melts the end and lashes and slips it in the bead and, but he’s Phil (43m 30s): Got this Yeah, I’ve seen, I’ve seen some people do that with like thick. I, I haven’t played with it much but they basically take like a thick mono, I don’t know like weed wacker cord almost this just thin enough to go through the bead and then heat the end of it and turn it into a flat head and probably epoxy or crazy glue the whole thing together. And I might try that but Tim did feature the balance fly on on his, on his YouTube channel so I’ll make sure to link that as well. ’cause he, he got introduced to bounce flies when he was filming with the new Fly Fisher television back east. I think they were fishing for small mouth bass and we were using like, oh like Bruised Leach and he sort of the producer of the show, Colin McEwen, he introduced Tim to those balanced flies ’cause Colin had come out and spent time with me out west when we filmed as well. Phil (44m 19s): So he flies getting more and more notoriety And it and just, and rightfully so. So Jerry (44m 25s): Yeah, well it’s, I don’t know, I guess I was just kind of pleased ’cause that you did that test with Brian. Yeah because literally I had never, I mean it, it’s logical but I never actually had anybody that said they actually compared him side by side. Phil (44m 43s): Yeah. We did it just for fun. Fish were in the mood to play. So that’s usually a good time to do those kind of experiments and yeah, it was just something to try. ’cause I always get asked, well what’s the big deal? What’s the difference? Why do I need to do this? Does it make a difference? And I guess ultimately you can do whatever you want. But to me it, it makes a difference. And you know, I have a lot of confidence in balance flies and particularly balanced leches, not only out in the northwest but basically everywhere I go people I dunno about you, but you often get asked, you know, what fly do you start with? And mine is usually a bounce leach of some sort. ’cause I haven’t met a, a fish yet while I bass. I’ve even caught pike on them. Definitely trouts, you know, anything that swims likes it. Phil (45m 24s): I was even out fishing for false albacore off North Carolina a number of years ago and I wish I had some with me because those, the Albacore are usually pretty aggressive chasing bait balls. It’s kind of, you know, pretty exciting and pretty chaotic. But they have a phenomenon, they, the locals there called sipping Alies where they come up and they’re almost like, it’s like a trout taking a spinner on the surface. It’s a very delicate rise. And, and of course I’m out there with klauser minnows and things like that and the guy said, boy, it’d be handy just, just hang something about like a little minnow pattern, you know, six inches to a foot underneath the surface. And I’m like, why didn’t you tell me that before I came? ’cause I, I have a perfect answer for that answer. Phil (46m 4s): So maybe the next time some of, if some of my listeners get out there in Chase Falls, albacore, they can give that a a try and report back to us. So do, yeah. Do you still test balance Jerry or do you, are you like me? I tied so many of them. Jerry (46m 17s): I do, I’ll usually do, you know, I’ll do one, you know, I just lightly lash the pin to the, I do do the thread dam behind the bead, but then lightly lash the pin to the hook and take it out and put it on, you know, piece of thread or or a wire or something to, and I try to get it to tip the, the, the bin to be tipped up a bit. Yeah. And I just do one and then I set that one aside and then I’ll go ahead and do my, my, the rest of them. And I, I just bring that one up to gauge that I have the pin out where I want it and I finish those and then when I get all done I take the first one and finish it off. Phil (47m 3s): Yeah. You mentioned some, I think it was in your article, a teeter-totter effect. What Maybe you can explain it’s probably, you know, just better explain that to the listeners. They probably can figure it out by now. Well Jerry (47m 13s): I was just, I guess it was just trying to explain to people, you know, how you’re balanced. You got, you know, Maybe you got a, a little kid on one end and a big fat guy on the other end. Well he’s gonna have to be obviously much closer Yeah. To the pivot point. But I ju just because a lot of people, you know, they, they never took physics in high school or anything and they don’t think about stuff. In fact, I kind of chuckled because I’ll be out fishing with people. I’ve even people that were with me and they pull the fly outta the water and they go, well that’s not balanced. Phil (47m 52s): Yeah. That’s important because there is a difference between what I call air balancing and then balancing in water because it, it, you know, a fly can be in the air sitting not in a, you know, a true horizontal position and yet you put it in the water, it goes perfectly horizontal. Jerry (48m 8s): Yeah, well yeah. Be because the, the weight of the water on the Yep. On the materials. So anyway, they go, well that’s not balanced. They say, well put it in the water. Yeah, okay. ’cause it’s in a neutral Yeah. Medium. The same as it is in the air. And that’s exactly why I quit messing with foam. We have a guy in our club who is a tremendous tire and fisherman, but he, he seems to seek out the most near impossible Phil (48m 38s): Solutions. Jerry (48m 40s): The, you know, it’s like coming up with a cure to the common code cold or something. That’s kinda stuff he likes to challenge. So he ties these flies with foam and, and each one is like, you know, a masterpiece. Phil (48m 55s): Yeah. The thing too, I think some tires I get struggle. They’re always trying for this perfectly horizontal profile in the water and sometimes it’s, you know, I say to ’em, if it’s not totally perfect, don’t worry about it. ’cause under the indicator exactly Jerry (49m 11s): The Phil (49m 12s): Surface chop is gonna bounce the indicator up and down that’s gonna transmit down to the fly and make it sort of dance and move. But the seductive action these balance flies have under an indicator is I find fish just can’t help themselves. It can be a very slow day that fly just almost tantalizes and taunts them and eventually they sort of break down and go, what the heck? And eat it. Right. Jerry (49m 33s): Well I enjoy your, like your, a lot of your videos you actually show a fly just hanging. Yeah. You know, a conventional fly. Phil (49m 43s): Yeah. It looks like an old western off the hanging tree at the end of town Jerry (49m 47s): And then you show one that’s balanced and I’ve got a, a miniature of that. I took a a little plastic jar and drill a hole in it and then I tie a fly on a loop and put some water in there And it put a little handle. So people, and you know, a lot of times when I’m tying I’ll have that set in there and they kind of go, well what’s this? Well then they pick it up and they, they start kind of playing. They can see how it wiggles. Yeah. Wiggles in the water. Phil (50m 16s): So what are you balancing like I do leeches now you mentioned nymphs, like the, the pheasant tails and I do cous nymphs. I even balance my blobs. I know you’ve done that as well. Right. Even though that some might argue, well that’s a round fly, but the reason I do it is ’cause sometimes trout can take those flies ’cause the materials are kind of buoyant and they like the mouth and play with them and then I’ll end up sucking them down. And I found that by fishing them balance that stopped. I had a more, but the tungsten bead a tighter connection on my leader. I didn’t miss any any ’cause a lot of guys will fish like blobs without weight under an indicator. And that fly is, it’s not really tight to any leader or dropper. Phil (50m 59s): And I think those trout can just mouth it and suck it down their throat. I found once I started doing that, I didn’t have any fish taking blobs deep anymore. They were always, as you mentioned, around the lips or in the upper part of the snout and didn’t harm them. Jerry (51m 14s): Yeah. I was, one day I was fishing with some blobs the friend gave me and, and out of like 10 fish, seven of them swallowed the thing. Yeah. And I went the heck with it. I’m not gonna fish with ’em anymore. It just, ’cause I don’t know whether, you know, people say the stomach acid dissolves the hook, but I don’t know whether that’s true or Phil (51m 34s): Not. Yeah. Some of them I was like, I don’t know how that’s gonna, you know, but you just cut it and hope for the best. Right. But you feel horrible. Jerry (51m 41s): Yeah. You don’t have any, you, you look down their throat there and you can’t even see the fly. It’s in their stomach. Yeah. We had you on the phone, we discussed that or a blo zoom deal and you mentioned ha going to a a ts and bead and I thought that was a good suggestion that that would help. But I have probably, I don’t know how many fish I’ve caught on a balanced blob. Probably, I don’t know, maybe 75 or something like that. I’ve actually had a couple of ’em swallow ’em even. Yeah. I I, in that Phil (52m 14s): Instance I have, I, my trick for those is again, I, and I fish ’em off a dropper a lot and because the blob is round the fly itself, I’m not so sure the, to me the balance part may not be, you know, it’s, it kind of looks the same somewhat as it hangs there. But I use a short dropper, I use a very stiff dropper and I often tie a clinch knot to it just so it’s tight and I really watch the indicator. ’cause I find with blobs sometimes you’ll see the indicator, like it’s almost like a small fish is playing with it and mouthing it. And as soon as it starts to go, I strike on those. Whereas years ago I used to wait, they’d play with it and I’d say, okay, wait. And then boom down it goes, okay, now set the hook. Well the boom is he swallowed it, now he’s swimming away and can’t get, get it unstuck. Phil (52m 58s): So yeah, you, there are something, there’s a bit of a technique involved with there. Yeah. Jerry, this has been great just talking about the, you know, the design around here. We’ve been close to an hour now. What I’d like to do is sort of finish up here today and then let’s have you back and talk about how you like to fish them because I know you’ve got quite a, a way you like to fish ’em. So if you’re okay with that, what we’d like to do is we’ll sort sort of end it here. We’ve talked about balanced flies, how you came up with them, the be you the pin assemblies, how you like to tie them and sort of the history behind it. And then have you back on another episode and we’ll talk about fishing them. Phil (53m 39s): How’s that? Jerry (53m 40s): Okay. That sounds like a great idea. Phil (53m 43s): Okay. Is there anything else you’d like to add just to close up the fly tying is anything you wanna mention or talk about? Jerry (53m 49s): Yeah, you, you asked a question about head turner beads. Phil (53m 55s): Oh yeah. The inverting tungsten beads. Yeah. They’ve become quite popular. Jerry (53m 58s): Certainly streamlines the process of tying the fly and I think just tying a, a clinch knot there to more or less have the fly at right angles to the tip. It presents the fly in a horizontal fashion and certainly works. And the only, only thing I observed was that when you catch a fish then you gotta straighten that back up. Phil (54m 22s): Yeah. You do have to check because even if you’re an aggressive caster, your cast can knock it out of position. Jerry (54m 28s): Yeah. So I’ve continued to just go with the balance flies. ’cause I guess maybe I’m a little prejudiced maybe. Phil (54m 35s): Yeah. You you have a little dog in the fight as they like to say. Well, that’s great. Jerry, I really wanna thank you for joining me. I, you know, I, since I started this podcast, having you on here has been one of my, my bucket list items for this podcast because of, you know, the important contribution your ingenuity made to creating balanced flies and, and, and the impact it’s had on my tying and my fly fishing. And, and I believe on others too because I, I believe a balanced fly is a common component of any Stillwater fly box today. And I also know a lot of guy, I, I use them, you know, you mentioned Lee liking to nymph on your cutthroat streams. I use them when a Euro nymph. They work great under a dry dropper. They work great cast and retrieve. Phil (55m 17s): So they’re not just an indicator of still water fly. They have a wide range of applications on lakes and rivers as well. So Jerry, thanks so much for your diligence and for thinking out a problem so the rest of us can benefit. I really appreciate it. So thanks for joining me today. Jerry (55m 31s): You’re welcome. Phil (55m 33s): I want to thank Jerry for taking the time to sit down and discuss with me the origins of balanced Flies and how he ties them. We now know how balanced flies came to be, who introduced them, and perhaps most importantly, how to tie them properly. Be sure to check out the show notes for images and recipes of a few of the flies. Jerry and I discussed. I look forward to continuing my conversation with Jerry in part two as we step away from the tying bench and Get onto the water to learn how Jerry fishes his balance flies. Be sure to join us.

 

Photo credit: Bob Vanderwater

 

Conclusion with Jerry McBride on History and Tying Techniques of Balanced Flies

That was a fun deep dive with Jerry. Lots of gold in there on how balanced flies came to be and how to actually tie them right. Check out the fly patterns and recipes Phil and Jerry talked about in the episode. And stay tuned for part two, where we’ll hear how Jerry fishes these things. You won’t want to miss it.

752B | Western Wyoming Fly Fishing with Jason “JB” Balogh of Fish the Fly

If you’ve ever wanted to escape the summer crowds and get into Western Wyoming fly fishing, this episode is for you. I sat down with Jason “JB” Balogh from Fish the Fly Guide Service in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. JB shares what it’s like to hike into the high-country creeks around the Tetons to target cutthroat trout on dry flies. We talk about the gear, flies, techniques, and everything you need to know for a backcountry fly fishing adventure. Plus, JB walks us through some of the bigger water options like the Snake and Green Rivers, and even throws in a few local tips—like where to get the best waffle after a tram ride.


Show Notes with Jason “JB” Balogh on Western Wyoming Fly Fishing. Hit play below! 👇🏻

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Wyoming Fly Fishing

Episode Chapters with Jason “JB” Balogh on Western Wyoming Fly Fishing

How JB Got Hooked on Fly Fishing

JB’s love for fishing started with night crawlers and a station wagon. Growing up in Memphis, he’d road-trip with his grandfather to Minnesota to fish for bass, pike, and walleye. But everything changed when he moved west.

What brought him out? A chance to ditch the cubicle and chase trout instead. Today, JB lives surrounded by public land and endless rivers like the Snake, Yellowstone, and Green. It’s the perfect spot for anyone who loves the outdoors.

Photo via: https://www.facebook.com/fishtheflyguideservice

Exploring the Backcountry with JB

JB and Fish the Fly Guide Service take fly fishing into the wilds of Wyoming. If you’re up for adventure, their backcountry trips are the real deal. You’ll drive an hour or more from Jackson and hike into remote creeks. No crowds, no cell signal — just pure fishing and stunning views.

Here’s what to expect:
– Remote creeks at 7,500+ feet elevation
– Lots of Snake River and Yellowstone cutthroat trout
– Mostly dry fly fishing in the summer
– Day trips into the national forest (with Tetons as your backdrop)

The best part? You can hike, fish, and totally unplug. JB calls it “recentering yourself” — and once you’ve fished these waters, you’ll get why.

Photo via: https://www.facebook.com/fishtheflyguideservice

Backcountry Fly Fishing: What to Expect and What to Pack

Planning a fly fishing trip into Jackson Hole’s backcountry? JB breaks it down. First, you’ll meet up in or near town, then drive 45 minutes to an hour into remote zones with fewer people and more wild trout. After that, it’s time to hike and fish some beautiful creeks.

Here’s what you need to know:
Timing: Best months are July through mid-September.
Access: Most creeks are public land — just grab a license and a map.
Flies to Bring: foam bugs (stoneflies, hoppers, beetles), ants, purple haze, parachute adams, soft hackles for deeper pools

Bonus Tip: Try fishing foam flies downstream and twitching them. Cutthroat can’t resist!

March 20, 2025 “Backcountry cutties have a way of putting a smile on people’s face! Memories made. 🤝
What’s your favorite memory fishing a backcountry creek/small stream?” (Photo via: https://www.facebook.com/fishtheflyguideservice)

Sight Fishing for Cutthroat in the Backcountry

In the Jackson Hole backcountry, sight fishing is a big deal. JB says you can often see cutthroat trout sitting close to the bank in shallow water, especially during flying ant hatches. These fish don’t move much—they’re just sipping bugs off the surface. And they’re easier to spot than you’d think with their golden bellies glowing against the rocks.

Here are a few tips JB shared:
– Don’t walk straight to the big pool. Fish might be in just a foot of water near the bank.
– Look for rise forms or movement before casting.
– Always scan the water first—especially in August when ants are out.

August 26, 2024 “This season has been epic on our backcountry creeks. Glad we still have sometime left in the season, but it wont be long until we are looking forward to 2025. #flyfishing #jacksonhole #wyoming #yellowstone #cutthroat” (Photo via: https://www.facebook.com/fishtheflyguideservice)

Big Water vs. Backcountry: Two Ways to Fish Jackson Hole

In Jackson Hole, you can choose between relaxing float trips on big rivers or adventurous hikes into the backcountry. Both are awesome—but totally different.

– Big water (like the Snake or Green): You’re in a boat, it’s chill, and you can crack a cold one while watching fish rise. Expect dry flies, nymph rigs, and some easy casting.
– Backcountry: It’s more rugged. You’ll hike, wade wet, and fish cold mountain creeks. You might not see another soul—and the fish love eating dries.

JB says it’s all about picking your vibe. Want comfort and views? Go float. Want to earn your fish and explore? Go hike. Either way, you’re fishing in a pretty epic place.

At Jackson Hole, Wyoming (Photo via: https://www.facebook.com/fishtheflyguideservice/)

More Than Just Fishing: Why Jackson Hole Is a Summer Hotspot

Jackson Hole isn’t just for fly fishing—there’s a ton to do in the summer. JB says most folks come for the national parks. Hiking is huge, but here are a few other favorites:

– Ride the tram at Jackson Hole Mountain Resort and grab a waffle at the top
– Go wildlife watching—bison, elk, moose, bears, and more
– Take in big mountain views from Snow King or Grand Teton trails
– Watch out for a “bison jam” on the road—it’s a real thing!

Photo via: https://www.facebook.com/jacksonhole

You can find JB Balogh on Instagram @fishtheflyguideservice.

Facebook at Fish the Fly Guide Service


Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below

Episode Transcript
Dave (2s): There’s no question that some of our home waters and destinations for fly fishing have gotten busier since Covid from the east, the West to the north and south. We have definitely seen a boom in new anglers, new people out there in the country, but there is still one for sure way to avoid these crowds and hiking into the back country might be the best way. Today we have a guest that makes his living taking people into one of the most spectacular areas in the country. And by the end of this episode, you will have a guide to Catching Fish in the Backcountry on the fly. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to fish species we all love. Dave (44s): Hey, how’s it going? I’m Dave host of the Wet Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid, grew up around a little fly shop and created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts out there. JB from Fish to Fly Guide Service is here today to take us into his world of western Wyoming and beyond. We’re gonna talk about the Green River, the Snake River, the backcountry waters. We’re gonna find out some of his favorite backcountry patterns. If you’re gonna put together a box in many places around the country, you’d probably want to have these patterns in your box. We’re gonna find out how to fish the soft hack with weight and the lift. This is an interesting way. If you’ve ever had struggled fishing soft tackles or swinging flies, we’re gonna talk about a new way here. Dave (1m 24s): And also how to approach a water if you’re new to some of these smaller streams and creeks, the best way to approach it so you don’t end up stepping on fish. Plus, we’re gonna get his number one mistake to avoid if you’re heading out this year and why people are riding the gondola to the top of the mountain in his hometown to eat waffles to start their day. All right, we’re heading to the current epicenter of geology formation in the us Here he is, JB from Fishthefly.com. How you doing jb? JB (1m 54s): I’m doing well, Dave. Yeah, thanks for having me on the show. Yeah, Dave (1m 58s): Yeah, this is gonna be a fun one. I, I’m always excited because, you know, we talk a lot. You guys do everything out there. We’re gonna cover what you do out in Wyoming and Jackson Hole and everything there. I think today we’re gonna focus a little bit on, on the back country, and you guys do it all. But I, I’m excited because I think that for especially those people that don’t have a boat want to get out and explore, I think that’s a good way to do it and fly fishing. But before we get there, let’s take it back real quick on, on your history. Did you get started early or when did the fly fishing come? What’s your first memory? And then, then we’ll talk fish to fly. JB (2m 28s): Yeah. Yeah. I guess my first fishing memories were actually like spin fishing with my, my grandfather I, I grew up in, in Memphis, Tennessee, and we used to load up in, in the station wagon Griswold style and drive two days to Northern Minnesota where my grandparents lived. And then when we get there that night, I’d go out and hunt night crawlers with my grandfather in his garden, and then we’d go fish the next day on, on, on the lakes there, catch some, some bass, some pike, walleye sunfish. The fly fishing thing really kind of got going for me when I moved out west into Jackson 28 years ago. JB (3m 12s): Yeah, no, I just kind of became a passion, immediately caught my first fish on the fly out here. It was actually in the Hoback River. It was a like a 10 inch cutthroat on a, a Turk tarantula, which was real popular back then. Oh yeah. Yeah. And it’s kind of been smitten ever since. Yeah. Love it. Dave (3m 33s): That’s it. Well, you guys were up in Minnesota. What were you like way up the grandparents? Were they way up north or what part of Minnesota? JB (3m 42s): Yeah, a little small town called Cloquet. So not too far from the boundary waters. Oh, okay. So you Yeah, way up north when we got up there. Like it would be light until super late at night, which I wasn’t used to. So I remember just being in awe of that be light at like 10 o’clock at night. That was kind of my first experience with that. And then, yeah, just, you know, creating those memories with my grandfather still brings a smile to my face. Yeah, Dave (4m 13s): That’s so cool. Yeah, I love, I love the the grandparents, the, the parents. Were your parents also into fishing in the outdoors, or was the grand granddad? JB (4m 22s): Mostly my granddad. My dad didn’t really fish a whole lot, and so I became the fishermen of the family and now I take all of them fishing when they come out to visit here, you know, like, let’s go do this. Dave (4m 38s): And, and what got you to Jackson Hole? Was it this typical just, you know, move out west, like a lot of, you know, or why’d you get out there? JB (4m 45s): Well, I was in engineering school in St. Louis at Wash U and was looking at desk jobs and, you know, the thought of a cubicle really kind of, well, it really wasn’t my jam, honestly. And I had a couple buddies that drove up to St. Louis on their way out to Jackson Hole and visited. And then when I was graduating, I, I gave them a buzz and they, they’re like, well, we’ve got a, a room in a three bedroom condo, you should come out. And so I, I jumped on the opportunity thinking I’d be here, you know, six months or a summer and kind of the classic Jackson story. It, it, you know, I fell in love and it’s been 28 years now. JB (5m 25s): Huh. Dave (5m 26s): What, what, I mean, I guess it’s, it’s just, we’ve talked a little bit about this, you know, on, on past episodes, but it’s kind of just, it’s everything, right? It’s the, it’s the mountains and the, the, it’s the outdoors though, right? It’s kind of that’s that’s the place. JB (5m 39s): Yeah, for sure. I mean, this town is surrounded by public lands, be it the national parks, the Forest Service, BLMI mean, the access to getting outdoors is just kind of amazing really. It just, it’s never ending. You could spend, you know, honestly, I could probably spend the rest of my life looking at new water and not really fish the same thing twice out here, we’re kind of up here in this, what we call the golden circle of trout. We’re at the headwaters of, of three major rivers, got the snake. Of course we’re not, we’re maybe an hour or so from the headwaters of the Yellowstone, and then roughly 45 minutes or so to the headwaters of the green, which goes to the Colorado and down to the, to the Baja there. JB (6m 34s): So you got so much water here, it’s amazing. You know, there’s so many things to do outdoors, be it fishing, skiing, hiking, whatever you wanna do. We got it going on here. Dave (6m 44s): That’s right. And, and this time of year, I guess we’re kind of close, you know, the, the season’s right around the corner. What are you doing now? I guess whereas we’re talking, it’s, it’s mid-March, you know, April’s right around the corner. What’s that look like for you? JB (6m 57s): So yeah, mid-March we’re finishing up a ski season. I, I work out at JHMR and help manage the host program. So I get a decent amount of skiing in in the winter, which is fun. But this time of year we started to get some, some warm spells, kind of goes cold, warm, cold, warm. And then like, like last week it was in the fifties and actually had a, a chance to get out and go float on the snake when slid the boat over snow banks and we’re catching fish on, well it’s mostly nymphs, midges and the little Blackstones, but there was a little bit of dry fly action and a decent streamer bite like midday, right? JB (7m 41s): Yeah, no. So we’re just kinda getting excited for the season. It’s coming around the corner real quick. You know, April is one of my favorite months to fish here, especially on the Snake River. Just those, those cutthroat are excited about it. They’re, they’ve lived through a long winter and you know, their first really major hatches, midges and the Blackstones and then Squalls and they, they get really excited about, you know, especially eating off the surface, which is, which is fun. It feels like it’s been a bit since I’ve seen fish do that. Right. Dave (8m 14s): How has the, you guys had a pretty decent winter. What’s that been like? JB (8m 18s): Yeah, it’s been good. I mean, overall I’d say it was warm, but we’ve got good snow pack. We’re I think like 105, 106% of our water in our snowpack, which is bodes well for our, our summer, upcoming summer season. You know, March, April and into may really kinda help determine how well that will go. But you know, it’s gonna, it’s supposed to snow this week. It’s kinda actually going back into winter for a minute here and then gonna be back in the fifties next week. So looking forward to getting on the river then. Dave (8m 55s): Right. Okay. So, so when you mentioned it, yeah, the exploration is part of the big thing there and I think backcountry is something we haven’t talked a ton about getting out there. Maybe we could just cover that a little bit just on the, you know, what that looks like. So if somebody’s coming in talking about, you know, getting into the backcountry or maybe they’re just gonna be out in that area, what, what’s that look like? Is it just, you know, do you guys guide for this? How does that look? JB (9m 20s): We do guide for this fish. The fly has some, some unique permitting that allows us to go into some of the tributaries and tributaries of the tributaries on the snake, honestly. So you going, you would probably come, if you were coming to stay here, you’d stay in Jackson and then we’d drive roughly 45 minutes, hour, maybe an hour plus in a few different directions honestly, and drive up into some drainages that don’t see as many folks and then hike a little bit. And those hikes, we’ve got seven different creeks or rivers that we fish. JB (10m 6s): And so the hiking can be, you know, and up and over and a little bit of elevation gain or you can be kind of just walking level along the stream bed. Then we fish. So this, these, all these waters are roughly 7,500 feet in elevation and got a lot of warm up a little bit usually ’cause we’re not Oh, right, yeah, we’re not fishing ’em until after snow melt ends. And late June is probably about the earliest. We do some of that early July and then into mid-September or so. It’s really kind of the season for our backcountry creeks. But when we get there, it’s usually, it’s usually a dryly thing. JB (10m 48s): Cutthroat trout love to eat off the surface. There’s no doubt about that. So we, we love ’em for it. Dave (10m 54s): Is there a mix of the, the cutthroat species or are these all like Snake River or what, what are the cutthroat up there? JB (10m 60s): It’s a lot of Snake River cutthroat trout and there’s a lot of Yellowstone cutthroat trout. The Snake River fine spotted cutthroat trout, I guess is what I should officially call it. It, it’s a subspecies of the Yellowstone Cutthroat. It’s a super unique trout. It’s, it’s the only subspecies whose historical range is actually lies within the historical range of another cutthroat. So the, which is would be the Yellowstone Cutthroat. So, and that’s because of, well these Snake River cuties of the fine spots evolved from the Yellowstone cuts. JB (11m 45s): It was roughly, I don’t know, 20,000 years ago or something that the last glaciation period came and then it kind of cut off our valley a little bit, kind of. So the fine spots range is, you know, from Palisades up to Jackson Lake roughly. And these glaciers kind of cut it off within that zone. And then there was a, like a genetic mutation that kind of created these, these fine spots. Like they’re, the only way to tell them apart from a Yellowstone cut is by their spotting pattern. You know, everything else, if you sent it, you sent a sample to the lab, it would tell you it was the same fish. JB (12m 27s): So they kind of evolved within that little range on their own and then became the dominant species in that range as well. So we do have a mix of those fine spots in Yellowstone cuts, especially up in our back country creeks. But overall in the drainage, the, the fine spot has out competed, you know, the Yellowstone cut and then any introduced species through the years as well. It’s, it’s a pretty hardy fish, honestly. Yeah, yeah. They’re really adaptable. They love, they’re not afraid of fast water. They’re used to having rivers and creeks that, that change with the snow melt and, and adapting to that. JB (13m 9s): So it’s super unique trout. Dave (13m 11s): Wow. So the only way to tell, I mean if you look at the two side by side is, well the fine spot is the Snake River just has finer spots. Is that the main way? JB (13m 20s): Yeah, so it’s got like these little smaller peppery type spots and it’s, it’ll be all over the body, whereas like on a Yellowstone cut, they’re rounded spots and they’re typically grouped more towards the tail. Yeah. So they’re, you know, that’s always kind of fascinated me that they really are the same fish except for this other, the fine spot, you know, kind of evolved and then became kind of the dominant species within this, this drainage. Dave (13m 50s): Right. And then are the ones in the Snake River, are you also down river when you’re floating, catching both species? Or is it mostly the Snake River? JB (13m 58s): It’s mostly the Snake rivers. You do find a couple of, of Yellowstone down there as well, but it’s mostly Snake River, you know, it’s once you get below there on the Palisades and over towards like Thes Fork that you see a lot more Yellowstone cuts again. Yeah, Dave (14m 14s): I’m, I’m looking at now, I, I see the photo. Yeah, it’s kind of, yeah, they have finer, maybe even more spots. The Yellowstone Cutthroats are kind of bigger and maybe not quite as spotted, is that the case? JB (14m 25s): Yeah, exactly. Both of which are, are beautiful fish for sure. I think. Yeah, they are, they’re gorgeous. You know, they’re kind of like golden yellow. And then Isabella, you take on like some yellowish orange shoes when they, when they get bigger, we call ’em the Yellow Bellies. Oh, right. Yeah, they’re, they’re fun. You know, our cuties get to, you know, maybe 16 to 20 inches would be the average, you know, 20 inches and above would be a fairly exceptional cutthroat trout. But they’re doing well, they’re doing really well in this drainage. Dave (15m 2s): Yeah. Do you guys do different on the, the day, is it mostly a day trip or do you guys do any like backcountry stuff out there and could you go out there? Is this going, are you in the National forest sort of thing or the park or what’s that look like? JB (15m 15s): We do day trips and then they are into, you know, these waters are within the forest, a lot of which the, you know, some of these creeks go from the forest and flow straight into the park, so you might drive through the park to get to the forest, you know, so you’re still kind of right under the Tetons more or less. But yeah, we do do day trips and so they’re, they’re longer days, which is great. You know, you kinda have a chance to get out into zones where your cell phone doesn’t ring mean you can detach a little bit, you know, and kinda, I think of it as, as recentering yourself and just kind of seems like I come back more relaxed every day that I go out to the back country once I return, I’m, I’m, I’m more relaxed than when I started. JB (16m 4s): Yeah, Dave (16m 5s): For sure. And you’re surrounded by it, right? The Tetons, are you seeing the mountain jagged peaks everywhere when you’re hiking in through there? JB (16m 12s): Yeah, there’s, yeah, in some creeks, yes, and in some creeks they’re filtered and then, you know, you’re in the, the Grove range, there’s also the Snake River range, you know, Jackson’s got surrounded by, you know, five different mountain ranges actually. So Oh wow. You got bits and pieces of it, you know, all kinds of different mountains depending on which way you look. Dave (16m 36s): Yeah, which way. And then of course you got the national park. And it’s interesting, I’m, there’s a geologist, he’s, he’s got like a YouTube channel. I’m trying to think of his name. I’ll, I’ll have to, I’ll put it in here. But he’s, he does these really great videos about geology of the west mostly. And one of them, he was talking about the geology of the Columbia River and how, you know, over millions of years things have evolved and how like basically the mountain ranges have developed and all the lava and stuff has flowed. But basically what he said is that hot point has migrated across the west, has moved east, you know, and now it’s obviously right in Jackson in Yellowstone National Park, right. With what is it, old, faithful and, and all that stuff. JB (17m 15s): Yeah, yeah, Dave (17m 16s): Right. You guys are in this hotspot, but that hotspot has been migrating over the millennia and you’re in the epicenter. I mean, that’s kind of, that’s what’s amazing about it, right? You have all these mount ranges, you’ve got the national parks. Do you partake, I mean, do you do a lot of National Park? What’s the difference between say the national parks and the National Forest? Or are they A lot of, a lot of similarities. JB (17m 34s): The national Park, grand Teton National Park, and then Yellowstone, like Grand Teton kind of encompasses the Teton range and then kind of comes out into the valley that, but you know, if you’re on the other side of the valley in the forest, you’re looking straight back at the Tetons. So you, I mean, it feels like you’re exactly in the, in the national park itself, but you might be on forest land. Some of the best camping is actually, you know, in this, it’s on forest land, it’s just on the other side of the valley from the, from the Tetons. It’s got an amazing view. Yeah, no, it’s super cool to be near the Yellowstone C era. You get a lot of hot springs from that, you know, molten laba that’s right down underneath this here. JB (18m 22s): There’s, yeah, it’s, it’s really cool. It’s, it’s super unique that way. And we got, you know, you got the geology, you get lava flows in mostly in Idaho you see more of those. But we’ve got, like, some of our geology have ash flows, which is called like a tough would be the, you know, when that ash kind of cools super quickly and then turns into rock. And then we have like Bri cliffs, so there’s a lot of surrounding the Tetons, there’s a lot of sedimentary drainages with those type of geology, but the Tetons themselves are more jagged and metamorphic rock and just kind of super spectacular. JB (19m 10s): Honestly, I never get tired of looking the Tetons. Dave (19m 13s): No, the Tetons are, I mean, it’s all amazing, but that’s, yeah, when you first see those things, it’s pretty crazy. And I just found, so it’s, it’s Nick Zentner and he’s, I’m actually, I’ll bet he has something on that area. I’m sure he does. The, the video I was watching is the geology of the Columbia River Gorge. Right. And essentially, I mean, it’s all connected. I mean, you guys, the Snake River is a trip to the Columbian, but it’s, yeah, it’s really interesting. He’s got a good way about stuff. So I’ll, I’ll have to look up and find a, a video on, on your area where you’re at. But, but yeah, so that’s it. So you’re gonna be hiking in, maybe take us to the day when, you know, it sounds like July, August, September of the prime for doing some of these backcountry. Where’s the meeting? Are you meeting out in the, you know, at the creek at your office? Dave (19m 53s): What’s the first step here? JB (19m 55s): We’ll probably meet you in town sometimes just north of town up towards Gron Junction or a moose maybe, and head north. And then from there we’re, like I said, driving 45 minutes, hour either north or going east up into the gron. We’ve got some tributaries that we fish south from there too. And then, so you’re driving through, you know, a lot of this terrain is you get out of kind of the busier national park zone and you get into bits and pieces of our valley and, and just off of it where not as many folks make it. JB (20m 35s): I mean the Tetons are, are so popular and for good reason, but you can avoid most of the people really quickly. Same thing with all the smaller tributaries in Yellowstone. They, you know, most folks don’t stray from the road, so walk 10, 10 minutes out into the back country and you’ve lost 95% of the people immediately by doing that. So it’s pretty easy to find some, some quiet space out in the hills around here. Dave (21m 4s): So that’s kind of the, the ticket. And is it, I mean, for what you guys do, it sounds like you have specific rivers or creeks that you’re fishing, but are you fishing, are people able, if they’re going there to fish anywhere, could they just get a license and hike off in the national park wherever and fish any creek up in there? JB (21m 20s): Yeah, that’s one of the beauties of, of the public lands around here, is that you do have access to those. I mean, down in the valley here, some of these, these creeks go through private land and you know, some ranches in the mountains as well, but for the, the majority of it, yeah, if you have a fishing license, you can fish a lot of this on foot on your own, takes a little bit of know how to, to read the maps. But you know, following the blue lines on the map, we’ll get you places around here. Dave (21m 51s): Right. So I mean, that’s one way to do it. I mean obviously the, the guide trip if you want to, you know, lower the learning curve or whatever, you know, check in with you guys. But they could probably also, yeah, just get a map or use your trout routes or you know, whatever and find like, you know, okay, here’s the stream. I go for it. If they were, let’s just take it in and we’re gonna be focusing this on, you know, that sounds like that summer period. But for you guys, what is the typical, sounds like it’s a dry flight game out there. What does that look like? What should the box fly box look like for dry flies if you’re heading out there in say, July? JB (22m 24s): Yeah, no, it is mostly dry flies. We do use maybe some droppers, like if you get there in the morning and the water’s still chilly and they’re not, they’re not fully coming to the surface, we might drop a, a niv below your, your bigger drive, maybe two feet, three feet tops. Yeah. So I would take my box for the back country. Well we got a lot of foam around here. Obviously we fish a lot of stone flies and a lot of terrestrials in general. So the beetles and hoppers, I definitely would not go into the back country without any ants. And since these are are cold waters, they’re actually water temps are kind of prime for mayflies on a lot of these creeks as well. JB (23m 9s): There’s a really good, I mean, you have, you have your PMDs your Drakes early season, but kind of through the season after those early season hatches wane, you get kind of these sporadic flas, which is kind of like a, a smaller green Drake. So that’s, you know, and I, I cover those with, you know, a lot of your typical Drake patterns. I mean you could get a, cover them with a parachute hairs ear, a parachute Adams, a fish like Fiskes Drake patterns ’cause they got a little foam body since a lot of our, our creeks have gradient, they’re coming right outta the mountains. JB (23m 50s): You want something that’s gonna float pretty well and that’s a good pattern for that. It’s really visible. It’s mostly dry flies, you know, I might go up the stream in the morning while a hatch is kind of working its way to fruition and fish a smaller fly. Another bug I wouldn’t be without is actually a purple haze. Oh yeah, that’s a really good one. Yeah, that’s a really good one out here. So, you know, maybe we fish the purple haze going upstream and then we get good action on that. And then coming down back through in the afternoon, I might throw on that bigger bug, your phone bug or maybe either a hopper pattern or a stone fly pattern. JB (24m 32s): And then fish it kind of quarter it downstream. So kind of non-traditional fishing it downstream, almost like you were swinging a streamer, men downstream and then kind of twitch it across the seam or across the pool, give it some action. You know, all those terrestrials don’t really, just, not a lot of ’em just sit there once they make the water, it’s a little foreign to them. They’re like, I gotta get outta here. Especially the stone flies, you know, our mutant stones, we got a ton of those down on the snake, but they’re, they’re also up on these, these back country creeks and rivers and, you know, really fun to fish. I like to, I fish a lot of patterns, you know, in that afternoon zone that could be a hopper or that stone fly like a, there’s like a tan, a Barrett’s hand we call it. JB (25m 21s): Or we’ve got a red belied Barrett’s hand. And then for the stoneflies I’ll fish the, what’s called a CFO amp. But those mutant stones, the males, they don’t have wings. They’re flightless. So by working that downstream end and then twitching across, you’re really imitating those males well. And then, you know, also the females, like they come back to the water in the afternoon on their egg laying flights. And so they’re, they’re dropping down to the water and scooting along it, dropping eggs, they dropping eggs from the surface to the, you know, riverbed. And so things that move get attention for sure. And it’s really exciting to watch fish not only come up and eat a dry fly, but you know, where you’re twitching like that they’ll be kinda launching themselves after it. JB (26m 6s): Oh wow. It’s a super fun way to fish. Dave (26m 9s): Yeah. So the twitch is just, so what you’re talking about, you’re casting it down maybe with a foam or something that’s a high floater. It’s swinging down, you’re putting them downstream in, so you’re speeding it up and then you’re also twitching. And what is the, what type of twitch? Just kind of doing your rod tip a little bit, like a little quick twitch. JB (26m 25s): Yeah, you can do the rod tip or just even a small strip, three, four inches with your, you know, your line hand. We’ll cover that if it’s a bigger flatter pool and say there’s not a lot of current to work with. A lot of people lift the rod tip, so it just kind of slides along the surface, you know, kind of the same way you would fish say a soft tackle under the water. But you’re, you’re fishing the, the foam bug on the top and just kind of, it skidders right across. It makes like a little ve wake right behind the fly. Yeah. Dave (27m 1s): How would you fish that on the soft tackle? That’s, I’m interested in that, that if you’re down kind of in the surface, right? What do you mean by kind of lifting it? How would you fish the soft tackle and what do you mean by like how you lift it in a similar way? JB (27m 13s): You know, a bug that we fish that I fish soft tackles is that we’ve got the heck yba out here. I think it’s Tim Noga Heba is what it’s called. It’s a, a great red quill western red quill, but it is a larger Drake pattern and basically it’s really well covered by a, a parachute hairs here with that red ribbing that, you know, matches that pretty well. At least the ones we see here. They can be different coloration in, in different drainages, but they emerge underwater and kind of swim to the top. So you, you know, we’ll fish like a soft hackle hairs ear. JB (27m 57s): And so I might use what say put on a seven and a half foot liter and then tie, you know, a stretch of forex fluoro usually to that and then tie it down to my fly. You know, a lot of times I’ll use a loop knot on that fly like I would a streamer and then put, you know, maybe a small weight right there at that knot where we tied on our, our tippet to help get it down but not, not too far down. And then, you know, fish it, like I said, across and then I’ll mend downstream and work the swing. So let the current kind of swing it across there and then when it makes it to the other side of the seam and is out of the current, then kind of strip it up towards, back towards you. JB (28m 48s): Oh yeah. But the lift works really well once it’s made it across that seam kind of into that flatter water see, and then you just lift the rod tip and then it kind of draws it back to you slowly. And then as you’re drop in the rod tip, you would use your line hand to, to pull out any slack so you can set the hook on the strike. That’s Dave (29m 9s): Awesome. And you have a little, a little split shot, like a, a tiny one that would be on it. Remind me again on that, where are you putting that split shot in relation to the, the soft tackle hole? JB (29m 18s): So I would put it, you know, where I tied on my tipt from my leader, so I’m, I’m maybe tying on two feet of, of tipt, so right at that knot. So I’d go above that knot so it doesn’t slide down to your fly, but it helps draw it down into the water column a little bit. And then that distance, you know, from the weight to the fly that, that the soft tackles are pretty much weightless. So the, the weight’ll be down lower than the fly itself. So it kind of makes it the fly go up and down in the water column when you’re drawing it back to you. It kind of gives it a little bit of a jigging action as well. Sure. Dave (29m 57s): Well in what size split shot would you typically be using? JB (29m 60s): Maybe a BB would be plenty for that. Gotcha, Dave (30m 4s): Okay. No that’s great. Yeah, JB (30m 5s): I mean I fished that on the, on the riffles in the snake lit way, but also on the backcountry. So these, these backcountry creeks aren’t super deep so you don’t have to get too far down into the water column. And the beauty of the, of the cutthroat is that they hold, you know, four to six feet down and look to the surface for their food. A lot of times, you know, a lot of times they’re, you know, suspended just below the surface, maybe a foot or two, you know, so there’s can be a lot of sight fishing associated with fish in those backcountry creeks that way, which is, yeah it’s super fun to see ’em just kind of suspended. It almost looks like in midair ’cause the water’s so clear. Dave (30m 48s): Wow, that is cool. Yeah. So you got some sight fish. So I love the yeah, the wet fly soft tackle ’cause that could, that technique could really work anywhere, you know, probably in most places. And it’s also probably imitates not only may flies but probably cadis and other bugs. Right. That soft tackle, that hair’s ear, is that, do you think it imitates a few different things? JB (31m 4s): Oh absolutely, yeah. I mean they, beyond the may flies, but the cadis and stone flies would be the top bugs. But you know, if you’re looking on the bottom of one of these back country creeks, you see cas everywhere, you know, and it’s, it’s typically your, your hydro psyche cas, which is tan, so that hairs ear that soft tackle hairs ear will cover it well. Okay. Dave (31m 31s): So you mentioned the site fishing. Is that something that you’re usually doing almost all the time up there for when you’re fishing the dries in the back country JB (31m 39s): You do? Yeah, you’re sight fishing in a decent amount, especially when the hatch is on or as the water drops, these fish will move up, you know, say from the pools in between the runs so they can be, we get a lot of good flying ant hatches, especially kinda, you know, as we get into August, a lot of flying ants. And so they’ll, they’ll move out into, you know, say there’s a, a trough along the bank that’s like a foot deep or something, they’ll kind of slide up into there and so it’s water that you would, a lot of folks would just kind of walk right straight through. ’cause you’re looking at the pool that’s upstream that looks so inviting, you know, but you gotta kind of keep your eyes peel for that, you know, and they, they tend to stand out, you know, that yellow belly will stand out against a lot of these rocks, but they’re just sitting close to the bank usually and just sipping when they’re in water like that. JB (32m 41s): Not a, making a lot of movement ’cause they’re out exposed. So, but barely just kind of bringing their nose up and sucking down the fly. It’s really fun to, really fun to watch, you know. Yeah, Dave (32m 54s): That sounds like a, a mistake that maybe is common, right? Somebody’s out there, they’re going up into the back country, you know, they find a stream they think would be good and then they, you know, walk over the fish. What, what would be your advice if somebody is coming up or how do you, do you guys do that? I’m sure you have some areas that you know, you know really well, but how do you choose, you know, like the reading the water, you come up to that stream and are we talking large stream, small and everything in between? JB (33m 19s): Yeah, kind of everything in between and then, then they fish at different times of the year. Some are early season and then the water drops too low and the move fish will move back out. But, and then those colder ones tend to be a little bit larger that we’re fishing in August when it’s just hot out and yeah, no I would say just, you know, I come to the stream, you know, obviously I’m looking for, before I tie anything on, I’m looking for bugs, what do I see? A lot of times as you’re walking through the sagebrush, you know, over to the creek you’ll see spinners or these clouds of, of black ants kinda hovering there and that’ll give you a good clue as to what to tie on first once you get there. JB (34m 7s): So, you know, just kind of observing and that’s, well that’s kind of the beauty of, of being in the backcountry. You just kind of get absorbed into the environment and you just, you know, you become present and that’s really what kind of, like I said, detaches you from, from the real world so to speak and really brings you into the moment and then really kind of makes it a special experience that way. Dave (34m 31s): Yeah, right. So that’s a great tip. So basically take a look at what you know you’re coming in on and bugs, things like that when you come up to the water, if you’re up to a new water, what’s your first, you know, like you said some of these fish might not be in the pool, they might be on a slot on the, are you just kind of taking your time and looking, trying to spot fish or look for risers or how do you know where to kinda start to make sure you don’t walk on the fish? JB (34m 54s): Yeah, after the, the water warms up, you know, it’s not unusual to see them rise. So you look for those rise forms and kinda yeah, you, you know, just look for that and then and fish to that. But yeah, Dave (35m 10s): That’s the easiest way to do it, just to look for risers. And if they’re, if they’re not rising, can you still get ’em on the terrestrials and ants later in the day, even if they’re, you’re not seeing a ton of risers or, or is it typical in those back country streams you’re seeing lots of fish rising? JB (35m 25s): Well, yeah, they, it’ll slow down the, the rise periods probably where they’re coming to the surfaces typically like 10 to two. But yeah, you can totally fish the likely water. And like I said, there’s some mornings where you get up there and it’s been colder overnight or we had a rain recently and the water’s cooled down a touch and so, you know, I’ll start with a, a foam bug and maybe something as simple as like a pheasant tail dropper or the hairs your dropper, you don’t have to get too crazy under droppers out there honestly. And then, you know, run it through the pool, just the likely looking water, you know, they’ll eat the nymph but a lot of times those cuddy will come right straight past the nymph and go eat that bug off the surface. JB (36m 13s): They love to eat off the surface. Yeah. And that’s when you know you’re okay, it’s time to, it’s time to cut off that NPH and we’ll just go, go single dry switch it up. Yeah, totally. Dave (36m 23s): So there’s no reason to do the dry droppers. Probably the best thing, you don’t have to use an indicator or go like euro nipping, I mean, or any of that stuff. You guys just pretty much dry drop or dry only JB (36m 32s): Yeah. On those creeks for sure. That’s really kinda, it’d be rare to m any of that you might might run into say some big beaver ponds where a small streamer like a little leach pattern usually is good or sculping pattern, like a smaller sculping pattern and you know, swing it through the pool but typically it’s dries or dry dropper and get to watch those fish eat your fly all day long. It’s kind of fun that way. Dave (37m 4s): Yeah, it sounds great. So I guess it sounds like you guys, yeah and like anybody listening, you know, if they’re out in that area they could get to a spot trailhead, you know, have your gear, it sounds like you guys hike up a bit, maybe a certain distance, get over a, a pass or something then drop on the other side. I mean you’re just kind of getting out away from the crowds a little bit. Is that the secret or do you have, is there a reason why you might wanna be hiking, you know, a longer period of time? Maybe hours potentially, JB (37m 31s): You know, the farthest we would hike from wherever we park the car is maybe like 45 minutes. But it we’ll get you well away from where anybody else that might have driven into there where they might fish. I mean you don’t see many people, but you know, typically folks fish closer to where their car is parked. So when you, you hike in, you get to that quieter water where you don’t see any people sometimes, you know, we’re using the hike to get up to, there’ll be forks of this, of a creek and you’re going up to fish one of the two forks and make your way up a specific drainage that way and fit versus bishop the mainstem below where they come together, you know, and, and those, those forks will be just that much colder than say the main stem, you know, as the, the water drops and the temps get higher during the summer, those cuties will definitely seek out cooler water. JB (38m 33s): That’s part of what allows them to kind of sit in that shallower water. They’re happy with that ’cause they, you know, if it’s colder they’ll go up into that shallower water. Dave (38m 43s): Gotcha. Wow, this is great. So that’s the, and you guys, like we said the star. You guys do a little of both. So you, I mean, what do you think is the biggest, you know, for somebody listening they’re thinking, okay, I could do the big water versus the small water. Are there some similarities there on, you know, the whole, you know, what you guys are doing or are they kind of night and day as far as the, the fishing or if somebody was kinda choose what they wanted to do? JB (39m 5s): There’s a lot of similarities, but they’re really two totally different experiences. The, you know, the boat is awesome, it’s relaxing and you float and, and you don’t really have to work quite as hard to get those fish and you still Dave (39m 20s): Right, you get a drink, a drink, a nice beverage like on the boat. Yeah, JB (39m 25s): Kind of, yeah. Relax and crack a beer and, and you still get to watch ’em come up and eat dry flies. You might nymph more on the, out on the snake. You might, you might use the nymphs more or like a, a indicator rig, but you know, so same bugs, similar bugs and you still get the watch ’em eat off the surface. But the, the back country’s totally different in that it’s a, a longer day. It’s really kind of more for an, an adventurous type angle or somebody that doesn’t mind getting out there wandering and exploring and seeing some new stuff. And it does require that, you know, you’re somewhat physically fit, you know, you’re up above 7,000 feet in elevation. JB (40m 12s): You need to be able to, to hike some, so that’s Dave (40m 15s): Amazing. JB (40m 16s): Yeah, they’re really two totally different experiences, but like I said, they do have similarities. Yep. Dave (40m 22s): What’s the gear real quick on that? Like when you’re doing this, it sounds like you’re in the summer, so it’s probably pretty nice. Are you just taking a, a backpack or what would somebody be, what would you need on this? You got a fly box or what does that look like? Do you have waiters and all this stuff of gear? JB (40m 36s): Well, definitely a backpack. You know, you’re gonna have your, your bugs liters, some bug dope lunch. You definitely want to have a lot of water with you. Typically that time of year we’re, we’re wet weighting. Okay. You know, so I’ll, I’ll even hike in from the trail head in in my waiting boots and then I’ll use weighting socks, you know, and kind of go that way. So you don’t, you don’t necessarily need those waiters. It’s the water will be chilly but the land around you is definitely warm. So it’s just fully refreshing to step into that creek and then be in it for a while. So, you know, I suggest that folks wear kind of like a nylon pant versus short sometimes when, when you’re along the creek you kind of, when you go up and out of the creek to move upstream, say to the next hole, there’s a lot of sagebrush around or willows and you know, don’t wanna scratch your legs all up. JB (41m 35s): So good way to keep your legs looking nice. Dave (41m 38s): Right, right. Got a lot of pain all the summer, all this because you guys are, is this on the east side of the, is this kinda like the desert side of or how does that work? Are you guys in the pretty much, it sounds like it’s deserty. JB (41m 49s): It can be. Yeah, like yeah, it’s kind of a high plains desert really. You know, once you get outside of the Tetons, the Tetons are very, they seem to suck every last drop of moisture out of ’em. But yeah, you’re in the rain shadow a little bit and you go, we go north, we go east, we go south, you know, outta Jackson for these creeks. So all different directions, but it’s typically drier landscape, sagebrush, like I said, the willows, you know, most of your vegetation, you know, tree wise or willows are, is right next to the stream. And then, you know, a lot of, a lot of sagebrush flats in between and around it. Dave (42m 31s): How do you guys choose where, you know, you’ve got all these streams where, you know, north, southeast, west, which ones you’re going to any given day? JB (42m 39s): It’s timing, it’s time of the, the season. Some of these are, are pretty small. You can almost even hop across ’em or do a nice leap and jump across some of these creeks and those fish well early season. But once the water drops it gets warm and, and those fish tend to drop back into a, a mainstem of a river or another creek. And then, you know, as we go through the season, like I mentioned earlier, we’ll we’ll seek out the ones that are just a touch bigger but colder on average. Sometimes when you, you know, you’ll do a stream crossing first thing in the morning and water temp will be say 48 degrees, 50 maybe. JB (43m 24s): So super cold. And so those are the waters we seek out kinda later in the season. You know, August and then that early, early September. ’cause they tend to hold more water. It’s colder, you know, that colder water made me think of another bug that we fish. What’s Dave (43m 41s): That JB (43m 41s): One that’s fun to fish is is the crane fly? Dave (43m 45s): Oh the crane fly. JB (43m 46s): Yeah, they, crane flies love, you know those colder waters that are flowing through a hotter or warmer landscape around them, that’s kind of their, that’s typically where you’ll find them is in that colder water. And so that’ll be a big bug. You can fish early in the morning and now when you put a lot of action on, you know, they’re moving quickly across the surface but you know, you could fish it pretty similar to, you know, we were talking about fishing that foam bug earlier where you’re swinging it downstream almost like a little streamer or soft tackle. Dave (44m 20s): Yep. So you can do that. Okay. And are you at times casting up into some of the pools upstream doing your, a typical dryly sort of thing? Or how does that look? JB (44m 29s): Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean typically we, you know, once you get to where you’re gonna fish, you move upstream to fish it during the day. So yeah, you would fish upstream and from behind where you, the fish are lying, Dave (44m 42s): Right. Casting up and looking for fish feeding or, or even spotting fish. This is awesome. Well that’s a little bit of a, a primer on some of the backcountry getting a taste for that. Maybe just take us, you know, through kind of your other, you know, I know you guys do the green, the snake, well what’s that look like? And you have some guides. There’s a cool picture of your guides that are, is on your website that I think you’re all in dry suits. It looks like you’re in some, you know, some big river trip. But, but yeah. What does that look like throughout the year maybe first off, where does that picture, was that like what, why were you all wearing dry suits? What was that picture and then what, what is the rest of your, you know, areas you fish look like? JB (45m 17s): Yeah, so those dry suits, that’s a, a swift water rescue course Oh right. That we took. So yeah. And so this, the snake is swift water and that’s definitely part of the training to be a guide here, especially on the snake is, is that swift water training and then, yeah, so I mean it’s, you know, just like the back country creeks, some of these rivers fish at different times of the year, say like the Green River fishes will kind of fish early. We’ll the snake will fish well say, you know, right now like mid-March till early May-ish whenever runoff decides to come and then it gets super muddy and then we’ll we’ll kind of head down towards the green in that zone through the month of May and in June because those brown trout, you know, you still experience runoff down there, but it’s below two large lakes, the green river lakes. JB (46m 19s): And so it’s not, you know, it can be some of the water, sometimes it’s muddy, but sometimes it’s just like tannin colored. Yeah. And they, they’ll feed well yeah, the brown trout that live down there are certainly not afraid of that kind of water. You know, they’re all browns are, are all light sensitive fish. So cloudy waters is what they love really. It kind of hides them, you know, when all the food’s out. But yeah, so we’ll fish that, you know, and there’s good stonefly hatches and then you get a really, really good gray Drake hatch down there Dave (46m 57s): On the green. JB (46m 58s): Yeah. It starts in, you know, kind of July typically. And it, you know, depending on what sort of snow pack we had and what kind of water the green has for the summer kind of determines how long that will go. And you know, usually, usually the more water, the more Drake you’ll see. They love that silt, you know, silty bottoms. So Yeah, no it’s, it’s really cool The green’s a you know, completely different experiences, smaller water. We, we, we float that Dave (47m 28s): You doing rafts or drift boats JB (47m 30s): In drift boats, you know, I’ll use, I’ve got a, a headhunter skiff that I’ll use down there on the green. So you got a little bit stealer profile on the boat. ’cause it is overall a smaller river than the snake like on the snake we, we use a lot of the, well what I use is a cl a it’s a 16 lp so it’s a, a low profile boat, but it’s got, you know, more kind of the traditional McKinsey style drift boat with a larger bow. You know, ’cause you’ll go through some wave trains, smaller wave trains on the snake, you know, ’cause it has gradient. But down on the green we’re using that smaller skiff. JB (48m 12s): You can even, you can sit down and kind of head hunt fish with a single dry, you know, sometimes, a lot of times when that, when that dra hatch is, is going, they start feeding early. So you want to get down there, you know, as close as you can to say sunrise and then, oh okay, yeah you can fish Drake spinners and then, you know, some cripple or emerging patterns and then adults and you know, when you’re in the middle of that hatch, it’s not so unusual just to fing fish a single dry, you know, sometimes the double dry as well because you’ll have PMDs or yellow Sallys that are, are, are popping at the same time as those gray Drakes. JB (48m 55s): And so you fish a double dry rig and the green up in that zone is, you know, not super deep. You know, it’s got some deeper holes but you know, there’s relatively shallower water for a major river and they, those fish like to eat off the surface ’cause it’s, you know, it’s closer to them, you know, so yeah, when those hatches are on, they’re, the greens are really, really fun place to fish. Nice. Dave (49m 20s): And, and this is the same green that flows down into like, like Utah right? And all that? This is more higher up is, or talk about that do, where is this at? Is this, are there multiple Green Rivers? JB (49m 32s): No, it’s the same one. This is near, this is the headwaters of the green where closer to where it comes out of the Wind River mountains near Pinedale or Daniel in that zone, you know, so as far as the Green River goes, it’s still like, it’s headwaters but it’s maybe where we fish it is maybe 80 miles downstream from the, from its source, you know. So it goes a long way. Like I said, the first thing it does, it goes into those two lakes and it, it filters out a lot of the sediment that’s coming straight from the mountains. So yeah, no, it’s, that’s roughly if we’re, if you’re staying in Jackson, we would drive down there, get that early start, you know, it’s 45 minutes to probably the first section of river you reach on the green, you know, an hour could be, you know, the farthest out we would be, it was an hour and a half from, from Jackson on your return trip coming back in that day. JB (50m 33s): So it, you get an early start fish that bug hatch and then, you know, as the green drops it gets a little warmer in the afternoons and then the sun’s fully high in the sky and those, those browns will just, they’ll just shut off. It’ll be like somebody flipped a switch, be like, all right, we’re done. You know, that’s it, you know, that’s it. And then once you start to see that, I mean, you can still, there are rainbows and there’s actually a, the Colorado River cutthroat down in the green as well. And so you still, you get some action on those, those guys. But typically we’re heading, you know, back to Jackson by like two in the afternoon a lot of days. JB (51m 18s): Gotcha, Dave (51m 19s): Okay. Yeah, it’s pretty cool to see it just, yeah. Where you’re at on the map is yeah, you’ve got the Wind River reservation kind of in the middle, roughly in the middle of the state. Yeah. And so you’ve got that right, the green’s flowing kind of out of that, that area For the most part JB (51m 34s): It would be actually, so the Wind River Indian Reservation is on the north side of the Wind River range. And so we’re kind of actually on the other side, we’re on the south side of the Wind River Dave (51m 47s): Range there. Oh, on the south side. Gotcha. JB (51m 49s): Yeah. And yeah, and, and Gantt Peak is the, it’s the high highest peak in Wyoming. It’s actually Oh, it is just a little, yeah, it’s a little bit taller than the Grand Teton by like, I think it’s 13,000 8 0 4, something like that is the elevation for Gannet and the, and the Grand Tetons 13 770. There you go. The wind rivers are, are really, really old mountains, the rock that’s exposed, theres, you know, I call it basement rock, it’s like, you know, 4 million years old or 4 billion years old. It’s really just kinda, Dave (52m 25s): Yeah. Or something like that, right. JB (52m 26s): Yeah. It’s crazy. Dave (52m 27s): It all said, yeah, 4 billion or 4 million to me is about the same. I can’t, you know, get a feel for it JB (52m 33s): With some of the oldest exposed rock that you’ll, you’ll see, you know, so I guess it’s, what’s it called again there really? The Wind River range. Dave (52m 42s): Oh yeah, the Wind River. Yeah. Yeah. JB (52m 44s): So yeah, no, they’re some super jagged peaks up into the winds, but that’s it. The Wind River. Yeah, they’re, they’re much larger mountain range than, than the Tetons all things considered. The, the Tetons are relatively, well the Tetons are relatively small mountain range, honestly. They go about 50 miles and they’re, you know, 10 miles wide or so, whereas the, the Wind River range is going 150 miles maybe, and then it’s maybe 20 miles to sit. Yeah. It’s a much bigger mountain range. Dave (53m 18s): That’s really, yeah, we’ve had at least one episode on, actually we’ve had a couple because we’ve done on the Wind River area, I know there’s a Native American kinda, I think part, right. And on the reservation, I think that’s the only people who can guide out there. We talked about some of that, that area up there. JB (53m 34s): Yeah, no, that’s would be kind of like closer on the Dubois side or up towards Thermopolis. Dave (53m 42s): Okay. JB (53m 42s): Yeah. And, and a lot of that is, yeah, you know, native Americans are the only ones that can guide there or hold or be an outfitter, but you can still get a reservation permit and, and fish on your own. That’s Dave (53m 58s): Right. Which is probably good advice too. Right. That’d probably be a good area to get away from some of the crowds out there. JB (54m 3s): Oh yeah, absolutely. And there’s definitely some zones where you can access with that permit. And then there are some, some zones where they know white man and beyond this side for sure. So there’s, there’re definitely some sacred ground for those guys that they don’t want you to go fish. Dave (54m 21s): That’s great. I think that, I think your tip at the, you know, the star of the fact that just getting out even in the national park of the busy area is just, just hiking for 15, 30, 45 minutes is gonna get you away from most of the people. Right. That’s probably the biggest, you know, one of the big tips today. Oh JB (54m 36s): Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Not too hard to get away from the most folks around here. Dave (54m 40s): Yeah. Perfect. And I, like I said, I’m gonna get, definitely get Nick Zentner on the show. We’re gonna have a geology episode that I think that we’re gonna for sure focus on. I wanna learn about the winds, the wind river range and kind of all that stuff. It sounds, I mean it’s a hot spot obviously, right? It’s the place that kind of feels like it’s the epicenter for, you know what I mean? Not only a lot of this outdoor stuff, but all the geology and kind of everything going on out there. Well, before we get outta here in a little bit, JB just wanna check with you, anything else you wanna shed light on about your program? We talked about the green, the snake, anything else you guys are doing? The back country that you wanted to shed light on or, because we’re gonna be following up with you as we move forward here, but just before we leave today, anything else here? JB (55m 22s): Yeah, I mean those are kind of the, the main rivers. We also float the Salt River, which would be south of here. Another tributary to the snake salt’s, a really fun small river that’s really best fish from the boat ’cause there’s tons of willows along it. And then we also just for, you know, you’re, we get a lot of families in Jackson, so we also do some scenic floats on the snake where we’ll, you know, float under the Tetons. And usually a, our most popular one is in the evening where we’ll stop and cook you up Eisenberger along the way, and then you enjoy the sunset on the way out. JB (56m 3s): So, you know, for the non fishing folks in your crew, that’s Dave (56m 8s): Perfect. So you could do a little bit of a Yeah. Family and, and have, I mean, just kind of more of the scenic thing and that’s pretty cool. What, what do you guys get is, I guess that’s the thing with Jackson because you get a ton of people coming through probably for their first time right. Coming through there. And is that what that looks like in any given year? It must be a little bit crazy, right? When, when it starts getting busy in June, July, August? JB (56m 29s): Yeah. No, it’s definitely a busy spot. I mean, I think Jackson roughly has 15 to 20,000 people population year round, but I think somewhere upwards of 4 million come through here in the course of a summer. So you can imagine what that might look like. It’s, it’s super busy. Yeah, Dave (56m 49s): It’s a busy and in a, but in a large area, right? Like you said, there’s two national parks. What are the other, I mean, you got the national parks, the National Forest, what are the other tourist things in the summer that people are doing? I mean, it’s mostly right hiking, just getting outdoors. What is it that’s bringing people there? I guess mainly it’s the national parks, right? JB (57m 7s): Mainly it’s the national parks and, and then hiking in those national parks is, is certainly popular. You know, I obviously think that you can’t miss a, a day on the, on the river is just, you know, great way to experience the parks and, and the lands around them. And then, you know, Jackson, let’s see what, you know, folks will come to, they’ll ride the tram or the gondola. It’s snow king. And so you can go up to the top of these peaks and then, and have views out over our valley. Oh wow. And the, yeah. And then there’s a tram up at, at Jackson Hole Mountain Resort that a lot of people will ride up there, go up there and get yourself a waffle. JB (57m 51s): That’s what they’re famous for at the top of the tram. Oh, it was waffles. Yeah, Dave (57m 55s): Waffles. So you could take a, so like in the, in the summertime or is that kinda what most people are doing? Come up there in the summer, take a tram up to the top and get a view of the whole valley? JB (58m 5s): Yeah, that’s on the checklist. If you come through here, you know, go up the tram, get that waffle, you know, float the river, do some hiking. You’re out there looking for, for wildlife is a, a really big one around here. It’s Grand Teton and Yellowstone. What’s Dave (58m 22s): The wildlife? What, what are the one, I mean obviously it’s got some of the ones you won’t see anywhere, Buffalo and things like that, but what are people looking for out there? JB (58m 29s): Yeah, so we, yeah, we got a lot of those, the bison, and then we’ve got pronghorn, which is a cousin to the antelope, but a lot of mule deer, a lot of elk. You see moose out here bears, we got black bears, we got grizzly bears, you know, a lot of the, a lot of the big animals. So that’s a pretty popular thing to do is, you know, go on a, a wildlife tour. It is. And so you get, you see the parks and see the animals and it’s pretty cool to, to be surrounded by that many animals. It’s America’s Serengeti they call it around here. Dave (59m 11s): Yeah, that’s what it is. I mean, just the buffalo or the bison, you know, just seeing them out there or you know, sometimes you’ll be on the road, right. And there’ll be a close encounter, they’ll be right next to your window, some of those. And that’s really, oh, it’s, it’s amazing. I mean, just that right there is worth the price of admission. Right. JB (59m 27s): Yeah, it’s crazy. I mean they’re, well some of those bison are as big as your car, right? I know. Kinda walk out on the road and stare you down and like, well what are you doing here? You know? Right. No, it’s, it’s super cool. Like you’ll get what we call, call ’em bison jams where you know, the hurdle just kind of be crossing the road and they’ll for whatever reason decide to stop in the middle of the road. And so you’re not going anywhere for a while until they decide to move. Dave (59m 55s): No, exactly. Yeah, we had a, we had a cool moment on a stream. We were fishing in the middle of the park and yeah, just down, we hiked off a ways, right. But we were out with some bison and it was just really cool. There’s a herd of ’em and they were all walling in the, in the, the water, the mud flats or whatever. But yeah, it was just really cool. We’re sitting there, fly fishing, they’re like, we’re waiting for them to cross the creek, you know, so we don’t get in any, you know, any trouble with them. But it’s just a cool area, so. So this has been good JB I think we can leave it there today. We’ll put, we’ll send everybody out to fish the fly.com and they can check in with more on this. I think it’s been really cool just hearing, you know, the opportunities, right? You mentioned there, just the back country, the everything going on there. It’s not just about the fly fishing, right? Dave (1h 0m 36s): It’s about the mountains and there’s so much to do. So I think that that would be a good start for me when I think about it. I’d love to go, maybe get a day in the back country, maybe float the river for a day, maybe hit the green, you know, mix it up so you’re kind of doing a few different things and, and that’s awesome. Well, I appreciate your time today and we’ll definitely be in touch ’cause we’re gonna be doing more of this, probably connecting with some of your guides and some of the other areas. But definitely appreciate the time and we’ll be in touch soon. JB (1h 0m 60s): Awesome. Well yeah, thanks so much Dave. I appreciate you having me on. Dave (1h 1m 4s): All right. Your call to action is clear today. Head over to fish the fly.com and find out more information. Let JB know you heard this podcast and check in with him. Find out about some of these amazing backcountry hiking trips. Pick his brain on floating the rivers. It’s the best place to start right now. If you wanna get into it. And also please follow this show so you get updated when the next episode goes live. Click that plus button in Apple podcast and the next episode next week is gonna be awesome. We’ve got a couple of big ones in the, in the bucket and littoral zone are both coming up next week on Monday. The Littoral zone. Phil is always bringing his good stuff, so stay tuned for that. Subscribe. So you get updated right now. If you haven’t yet checked out Wetly Swing Pro, you can go to wetly swing.com/pro, enter your name there. Dave (1h 1m 51s): We’ll follow up with you some details on that. We are just doing a slow trickle out for those interested, I’m just kind of hearing back On the podcast before we kind of go all in on this. So go to wet fly swing.com/pro and and you can find out there. All right, I’m gonna get outta here. Hope you have a great morning, hope you have a great afternoon or an amazing evening, and we’ll see you on that next episode. Outro (1h 2m 14s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly, swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing.com.

Conclusion with Jason “JB” Balogh on Western Wyoming Fly Fishing

Whether you’re chasing big cutthroat on the Snake or sneaking up on sipping trout in a quiet creek, JB makes it clear—this area has it all. You don’t need a boat, just a solid pair of wading boots, a good backpack, and a sense of adventure. Be sure to check out fishthefly.com if you’re planning a trip to Jackson Hole, Wyoming.

752 | Fly Fishing Patagonia Argentina with Ron Sorensen – Brown Trout, Limay River, Chocolate Lab Expeditions

Episode Show Notes

What if the river rose, the wind calmed, and a 30-inch brown slid into view—would you be ready? Deep in the heart of Argentina’s Patagonia, chances like this don’t come often. Today, we’re heading south to chase migratory browns in crystal-clear water and find out what it takes to hook up when it matters most.

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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

Sponsors and Podcast Updates

Ron Sorensen, owner of Chocolate Lab Expeditions, takes us inside the Limay River—where trout hit like steelhead, driftboats rule, and the hatches are still sacred. You’ll hear when to go, how to fish it, and why this might just be the most dynamic trout river in the Southern Hemisphere.


🎣 Featured Guest & Outfitter

  • Ron Sorenson – Owner and guide at Chocolate Lab Expeditions in Patagonia, Argentina


🏞️ Rivers & Regions

  • Limay River – Tailwater fishery in Northern Patagonia, Argentina

  • San Martín de los Andes – Gateway town near the Le Ma River

  • Missouri River – Referenced for similarities in fish behavior

  • White River, Arkansas – Compared for hydro-dam influenced trout runs


🧠 Influential Figures

  • Randall Kaufmann – Iconic fly tier and shop owner

  • Mike Lawson – Legendary angler and early mentor to Ron

  • Gary LaFontaine – Pioneer in fly fishing theory and writing

  • Jack Dennis – Known for Western fly fishing and tying videos


🧰 Gear & Shops


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643 | Fly Fishing Argentina with Gustavo Hiebaum of Set Fly Fishing – Golden Dorado, Patagonia, Travel

Full Podcast Transcript

Episode Transcript
Dave (2s): Today we’re heading to a magical land where you can swing for large migratory brown trout, hit some of those amazing hatches, and see some big game that are unique to the countryside. This place has been coined the Montana of 60 years ago, and today you’re going to get a glimpse into Northern Patagonia. So you know why this should be one of your bucket list trips. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. How’s it going? I’m Dave host of the We Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid, grew up around a little fly shop and created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts out there. Dave (42s): Ron Sorenson Chocolate Lab expeditions founder and fly fishing nerd takes us into his lodge on the Lee Ma River and some of the similarities between Montana and fly fishing outta Montana and guiding where he does his other half of the year. You’re gonna find out how to skate flies out of a drift boat for big brown trouts. We’re gonna find out how to hit some of the biggest hatches in this part of the world, and we’re also gonna find out what the twitch and sit is all about. Plus, we’re gonna hear how these 80 acre ranches started out as big sheep farms and now are meccas of fly fishing. We’re gonna get into it all today, including the Chewbacca Fly. Why you should be thinking about the Chewbacca fly fishing. Dave (1m 23s): This one, This year, this half streamer, half surface fly. All right, it’s all coming today. Here he is, Ron Sorenson from clea fly fishing.com. How you doing, Ron? Ron (1m 36s): I’m doing great, Dave. How are you today? Dave (1m 38s): Great, great. Yeah, I’m glad you put some time together today to put this together. We’re gonna talk about a couple of places that are always hot topics, Montana, Patagonia. We’ve definitely had some episodes on, it’s been a little while for Patagonia at least, but we’re gonna talk about all that. We’re gonna get into some brown trout fishing and whatever else we come up with today. But I first wanna start with a little on your background. I know we talked off air about Randall Kaufman, his name came up. You have some connection. I know Mike Lawson as well. But take us back real quick on fly fishing. Have you been doing this for a while or are you, you know, are you a little later to the game? Ron (2m 9s): No, I actually, I grew up in Portland, Oregon and fly fishing with my grandfather, actually. So around four or five years old, they would take me down to the Matius River, which you probably have a whole dear to your heart. And that’s how I spent most of my summers growing up. Fly Fish, the Crooked River, and not, not so much the Deschutes from my dad, but a lot on the Crooked River until I got older. So that’s Dave (2m 35s): Nice. That’s it. Ron (2m 36s): That was my youth. Dave (2m 37s): That was your youth? Ron (2m 38s): Yeah. Dave (2m 39s): What was the, I I always loved the Crooked River because it’s, you know, one of those local streams for Oregon. What years, do you remember, were you fishing the Crooked River for many, many years or what do you remember the year roughly? Ron (2m 49s): Oh, I, I probably fished it. So, let’s see, I was born in 71, so I probably fished it from 76 through 88, probably all are there. Dave (2m 58s): Okay. This is perfect. Do you remember that pretty well, the Crooked River back then? Ron (3m 2s): I do, yeah. I mean, we, we always went to the same little stretch that I remember. I mean, we are, I’d have to try to find it again on a map. Yeah, we, my dad bait fished and so we’d actually go and collect what he called perrywinkles. So we go collect case cadi and then that, that really was actually my first interdiction. And then later that sort of transfused into, into nim fishing later about weed, fish, ultralight tip it, you know, our line, and then run a split shot and then bounce those, the periwinkles down the river. And so then later that sort of, you know, like that translated over into, into nim fishing when nim fishing wasn’t, you know, initially when I was growing up with my grandfather, you know, he’d fish, you know, those bucktails and swing flies and they were all sort of, you know, approximations of salmon fly patterns or golden stone patterns, you know, so I remember when Pinch on Indicators first came out in the Cam Sherman fly shop probably in like 86, you know? Ron (4m 1s): Right. We were figuring out there they were, but nobody really knew how to use them. ’cause videos weren’t a thing yet. Dave (4m 7s): That’s great. And do you remember on the Craig River, were you guys getting some pretty large fish out there? What was the size look like back then in the eighties? Ron (4m 15s): I’d say the, the average fish were, you know, probably 12 to 16, 17 inches were probably the average. And then, you know, occasionally we’d, we’d find, you know, crayfish and then like my dad would fish with crayfish tails. And I think, you know, we, I probably over those long weekends that we go with my dad, you know, maybe we get two or three that were in that 20, you know, that were on 20 inch fish. Yeah. Dave (4m 40s): And then when did you get into like, the connection with Randall Kaufman and kind of start getting into more of the fly fishing end of it, the industry end? Ron (4m 48s): So, you know, with my grandfather, we always, you know, in the Matius we were purely fly fishing. And when my dad, it was always a mix. So we’d go to Crane Prairie Reservoir, and my dad just loved to fish. It didn’t matter in what, you know, in what sort of state it came in. He loved to fish. So we’d, you know, fly fish if that was what the rules were. And, and bait fish if that was, you know, acceptable. But I was 16 when we had actually had a, we had a, a school project where you were supposed to donate, you know, a couple weeks working in a local business. And so my mom wanted me to go down to the, you know, donate my time at the bank. And then when I figured out a bunch of my buddies were gonna go ski with, you know, up at ski patrol in Mount Hood, I, I figured that I should come up, come up with my own plan. Ron (5m 37s): So my mom wasn’t home one day when I came back from school, so I walked down to Randall’s door and I knocked on his door and, and offered to work for free at his fly shop for two weeks. Oh, wow. So that’s, that’s how I got my start. And Randall was of course, like, well, for sure, you know, free labor. That’s awesome. Yeah, so that’s how I, I got started was working at a shop on the sort of the school project and, and we hit it off. He was, he was fantastic, you know, to, you know, I’d never met anybody that was, you know, into it, like, to that level obviously. Right. And my grandfather liked to do it, but it was, it was as much as filling up the quota on, as, you know, at that point the mats was really a put and take fishery. Right. So, you know, my grandfather, the, the good, you know, the good accountant, you know, CPA, that he was, he’d go down and he’d, he’d fill in his, you know, his roster of, of hatchery fish for the day. Ron (6m 28s): And then that was it, you know. And so where I was, you know, it took me till I was about 13, I was like, well, what, you know, what if we just kept four and then we could, you know, just keep fishing for the rest of the day And we didn’t, we wouldn’t have to stop, you know, which, you know, grandpa that didn’t compute, but Randall of course understood all that, that you didn’t actually need to keep, keep any, and you could just fish all day. So that was really when, you know, things started to evolve and, you know, at a, a lightning, you know, fast pace, so to speak. So that, that was, that was really a fruitful relationship. And, And it was Randall that then, you know, wrote me my first recommendation and, you know, helped me get my first guide job in Montana, which was in 91. Dave (7m 12s): And when you were at Randall’s, I mean, that was a pretty, that was kinda one of the big places out. Did, was it kind of popping then? Was, was there a lot of, a lot of business, a lot of traffic? It seems like that was kind of the, the heyday of Randall, at least somewhere in there, right? A lot of travel. They were a big travel group and all that. Ron (7m 28s): Oh, absolutely. So at, at that timeframe in the mid, you know, I probably came in sometime in that, I guess it would be the mid eighties, so that it was, it probably was just at its peak. I mean, that was the, the catalog that, or Dan Bailey’s that you, you know, that had arrived at your house and you’d see, you know, all the, you know, all their fly tying products were in that catalog. I mean, that was sort of the, the end and the heyday of that timeframe before the internet came along. So it was, you know, it was probably Kaufman Stream born and Dame Bailey’s were probably the, at least the major players in, in my orbit at that time for sure. Yeah. So they had a whole library of all these VHS, you know, cassettes. Ron (8m 9s): And so at the end of the day, Randall, anyones that weren’t rented out, I could take home for the night and then bring ’em back in the morning. And so then that was, you know, sort of my first exposure to, you know, Lonnie Waller and like all these, all the, you know, Jack Dennis and his fly tying, you know, series. And, and that was really what expanded my, you know, exposure to the whole fly fishing world. Dave (8m 32s): Right. Yeah. That’s great. Yeah. And we just had, just had Jack Dennis on the show again here recently. It was good to catch up with him. He is obviously, yeah. Out in Jackson, Jackson Hole, kind of a, a different area, but still obviously out west. No, this is great. Well, let’s fast forward a little bit. So you, you get into the guiding eventually. Maybe let’s just jump right into the, is it the Le May River Ranch that you have out in Patagonia? Ron (8m 55s): May, right? Correct. LeMay, yeah. Dave (8m 57s): Le May, Le May River. So I, I’m not familiar, obviously I’m not familiar with the, the ranch there. Maybe talk about that. Fast forward us through until how you come to be running, you know, down in Patagonia in the, in the ranch there. Ron (9m 8s): Well, so after my first, you know, so it’s a continuation in some regards, right. So, I mean, I, I make it out to Montana. Randall, you know, said, you know, if you cut your teeth out there one season, then I’ll call up people that I know. And he actually know, he knew Jack Dennis and Mike Lawson very well, because that’s how he spent his summers when he was young. He, he tie all winter long, make money, and then he’d come out, you know, out to Yellowstone Park in order to fish his brains out all summer. And so he knew all the, like, Jack Dennis, Gary LaFontaine, Mike Lawson, they were doing that traveling like road show at that point. That’s right. And so that’s how Randall type, Dave (9m 46s): That was the Randall, right. Randall was with, was it Qua Feather Merchants back in the day where they were doing the Traveling Road show selling their flies? Ron (9m 53s): Yeah. That, and then, but then Jack Dennis, Gary LaFontaine and Mike Lawson, they, that, that trio, they were traveling together as well, like on a road circuit. And so, you know, all those things sort of tied together. So I ended up being able to work for Mike Lawson, thanks to Randall Kaufman. He put together, he basically called Mike Lawson up and, you know, I caught him in a, you know, in, in a building year maybe or something. And I was able to slip into Mike Lawson’s team. ’cause I, considering my guide history, I certainly had no business being there. But, and then my first training day with Mike Lawson, I actually rode Lawson and Gary LaFontaine down the river. Wow. So that was like a, an amazing first day out on the Henry’s fork for me. Ron (10m 36s): But to fast forward, because of my involvement at Henry’s Fork Anglers and the crossroads at that place is in, in the, in the fly fishing world, I ended up having a job offer to go down and guide in Patagonia. And so went down to Patagonia and guided there in the winters. I honestly, I didn’t envision, you know, staying in college or a graduate program, but then being able to go to Patagonia definitely trumped any other future life plans. I thought I had made my, for myself and met, you know, met all kinds of great people. And then one of the people that I met, my first, my very first year in, in Patagonia was a guy named Javier Ky, who was a, an aquatic biologist. Ron (11m 16s): And he was the one that actually introduced me to the, the le May the very first time that I went out and got to know it. ’cause he was working for the state and they were doing quarterly impact studies on the, on the river because the dams are privately held. And then part of the, part of the contract that the dam has with the province was to, was to do this quarterly impact study inversely, I think it was just the way that the province was able to fund most of the, you know, carry most of the, they passed off most of the, the costs, you know, for their aquatic bi biologist team. They just pass it off to the dam, you know, by slipping into this contract or what have you. So, but anyways, the, I was, I was able to go and because I was sort of, you know, I loved all the, you know, the insects and all the science side of, of fly fishing, you know, Javier and I instantly bonded because he was one of the few people that actually, you know, knew, you know, the science behind all these rivers. Ron (12m 13s): And so, you know, I was constantly bombarding him with all these questions like, you know, well, where are the, well, where are the big stone flies? Or are there any rivers with stone flies? I haven’t seen any salmon flies or golden stones. And so I could bounce all these questions off heavier. And you know, of course he, you know, he was sort of a fly fishing geek like, like I was. And so we, you know, got off on all this, you know, sharing all this information. And, and so he drug me out on sort of one of these like, fact finding missions to the LeMay. That was the first time I was introduced to the river. Dave (12m 44s): Yeah, that’s it. And, and then eventually you, and you have a lodge now that you, you own out there. Ron (12m 50s): Yeah, correct. So I mean, we, the first trip that I spent out there was just, you know, for me it was sort of earth shattering the nature of the river, you know? So I mean, some of the data that we were getting in was, you know, collecting these fish and we were, you know, weighing, measuring and then taking scale samples off these fish. And, you know, I learned actually so much on that first trip. I mean, I’d never, I’d never done that kind of, you know, sort of work before. And, you know, the first fish he looked at, he was like, oh yeah, it’s a 17 inch fish. It’s about, you know, it’s about three years old, which for me was, you know, hard to believe. And he was like, well, yeah, you can just take a scale sample and put it under a microscope and then you can tell exactly how many winters they’ve gone through. Ron (13m 32s): Which I had never seen the scale under a microscope before. So that was, you know, I thought that was just incredibly fascinating, you know, and, And it turned out to be absolutely true. You know, every dark line was a winter. Dave (13m 44s): Are those fish down there? They’re brown trout, right? We’re talking brown trouts, but are the brown trout similar? Is the fishing similar to Montana? What, what’s that like when you compare the two? I’m sure you’ve probably done that before. You could do that pretty easily. Ron (13m 56s): Yeah, so I mean, they’re, they’re exactly, you know, similar. I mean, they’re trout are not native to anywhere south of the equator. So they were all introduced, but we’re approximately equal distance from the equator in Patagonia compared to Montana, Idaho, Colorado, or what have you. So it’s in that like ideal trout band, you know, as far as distance from the equator. And, you know, in a lot of regards, you know, so we have, you know, Cadi and Mayflies and all the, you know, essential food groups were naturally occurring in Patagonia before the trout were introduced. So I mean, that they were just sort of missing that one, you know, that one key element in the rivers was the trout themselves. So they were introduced from, from northern, you know, the, from northern hemisphere, the, the eggs were brought down and introduced into Patagonia. Ron (14m 45s): So Dave (14m 45s): When was that? Do you know roughly when they were first introduced there? Ron (14m 48s): Yeah, it was between 1905 and 1911, at least on the Argentine side in Patagonia. That’s when there was an active sort of breeding and introduction program. And after that it was essentially, I wouldn’t say that abandoned, but it was sort of completed in that, you know, in a very short little window. But since originally there were no dams, the fish were introduced into a couple key rivers, and then from there they were able just to expand within the given niche and, and fill, you know, naturally sort of expand within these river systems and fill all the available niches, you know, from there until, you know, Joe Brooks and all those guys showed up in the late fifties, early sixties. Ron (15m 30s): I mean, they essentially had, you know, what, 30, 40 years to expand within these virgin systems and come into their own, so to speak. Dave (15m 39s): Right, right. And is that how it happened? I’ve heard, I’ve heard some stories around in the US where people like that, Mike laws, well not necessarily Mike Lawson, but some other people around, you know, around famous people back in those days where they planted, you know, trout like in the White River, and now these, you have these maas of trout in the white. Is that kind of how it worked down there, where you had these Americans or other people going down and just like building this program? Ron (16m 1s): Well, they definitely built a program, but it was an Argentine, and you’d have to reference back to Bill Leach’s book. ’cause he, he researched it pretty heavily. But it was, it was a private, a private party got the authorization from the Argentine government. But I understand that it was an Argentine himself that, that spearheaded the project, got the, okay. Went and collected the, you know, or asked, and they, and they were able to secure eggs out of the McLeod River in California. And then they got brook trout eggs from the Northeast and then brown trout eggs from Europe. And then, you know, shipped all these eggs down to Argentina and then had ’em on in refrigerated cattle cars, essentially, you know, that took ’em out to Patagonia. Ron (16m 47s): And then they created brood stock in, you know, like nine, you know, in these ponds and lakes in 1905. And then they were actively introducing, you know, the fish for about like 10 years essentially, and that, that, or eight to 10 years. And then that was about it. And so then all these sort of famous Americans or what have you, like Billy p and Joe Brooks, they came down in the late fifties, early sixties, but they were invited by Argentines, like Bebe and Reina and these famous, you know, the first wave of, of Argentine fly fishers that invited them down to help expose the, the Argentine fly fishery. Basically, Dave (17m 27s): When it comes to high quality flies that truly elevate your fly fishing game, drift hook.com is a trusted source you need. I’ve been using Drift hook’s expertly selected flies for a while now, and they never disappoint. Plus they stand behind their products with a money back guarantee. Are you ready to upgrade your fly box? Head over to drift hook.com today and use the code swing at checkout to get 15% off your first order. That’s Drift hook, D-R-I-F-T-H-O-O k.com. Don’t miss out fish. The Fly Guide service is dedicated to sharing the incredible fly fishing opportunities around Jackson Hole, whether floating the Scenic Snake River in search of native cutthroat trout, or hiking into the mountains to explore pristine tributaries every day on the water is an adventure. Dave (18m 11s): You can join them for an unforgettable fly fishing experience in the heart of the tetons@fishtofly.com. So, okay, so that’s, that’s kind of how it happened And it makes sense now. Yeah. It’s at the same from the equator. Similar. What, what else are, you know, when you, again, let’s say on that comparison, Montana versus, you know, Argentina, for those that haven’t been down there, what, what are, are there more similarities or more differences when you talk about the, you know, the fishing and kind of the area and stuff like that? Ron (18m 39s): No, I, I think that they’re very similar. I mean, I think it’s, it’s easy if you were, you know, if you parachuted outta the plane and had no idea what zip code you were in or, or country code, I mean, you’d be hard pressed to define that, you know, you weren’t in parts of Wyoming or Montana or, you know, or, or Colorado for example. I mean, it’s really hard to, to tell you instantly feel, you know, at home. And then over time you, you know, you started to start noticing differences in the floor, the fauna, what have you. But it’s, it’s very much what fishing in the American West would’ve been like 50, 60 years ago Dave (19m 17s): Because of less people, even though Montana is not a very heavily, well, it’s busier now, but is that the biggest thing, just the less people there? Ron (19m 24s): Exactly. Yeah. So I mean the, the trout, except for their naivety, you know, they behave exactly like they would in Idaho, Montana, or Wyoming. You know, the difference is just fishing pressure, which I think, you know, in talking with people in Montana, he is like, well, you know, why would I go all the way down there to, to trout fish? And it is, you know, because the essential part or the essential part, the experience of fly fishing is, you know, sort of stumbling around on a, on a mountain river with nobody else around. And, and I mean, I sort of have to go back to when I was 12, 13 years old to remember what that was like. Right. Ron (20m 4s): You know, anymore, you know, sadly enough, Montana’s not, you know, not the same, you know, if you try to fish in Montana around the Madison or Missouri in June and July, it’s, it’s not the same experience that it used to be. You know, the fisheries are still, you know, in some regards, some of the rivers have been able to hold up, like the Missouri has been able to hold up. It’s still a completely viable ecosystem, and others have not. You know, and that’s, that’s the sort of the, you know, the biological reality of these rivers. I mean, you know, like the big holes gotten a lot of, you know, press and, you know. Dave (20m 39s): Yeah. That, that’s what I was kind of thinking because we just had the big hole river foundation on, we talked about some of like what they’re doing to measure the, the changes and, and kind of stay on top of that or figure it out. So have you seen, I mean, again, they don’t quite know what’s going on the, you know, water quality, things like that, but have you seen the same, similar, not similar, but you know, anything, any changes down there in Patagonia? Ron (21m 1s): In Patagonia? No. I mean, you do see how fish adapt over time, the pressure that’s, that’s undeniable. Dave (21m 8s): Yeah. I’m just thinking more like what I’m going to is the fact that it seems like in the US and the episodes we’ve had all over the country, you know, climate change and water increasing water temperature seems to be a common thing. You’re not seeing that at all down there. Oh, Ron (21m 20s): For sure. Yeah. I mean, for as far as, you know, water’s getting warmer faster over the course of, of a season and when do our fall bugs start, you know, I mean, usually cross. Dave (21m 32s): Right. You have seen some changes. Yep. Ron (21m 33s): Yeah, that’s undeniable. I mean, you know, but I think, I think what’s interesting is, is you’re seeing, you know, those effects without the, you know, without the effects of, you know, maybe development, right? On those one thing, on those rivers thing. Yeah. So, you know, you, you can kind of separate, you know, what’s essentially still pristine fisheries, right? With the effect of climate change like that you can see because you can, you can see certain elements in the environment. So for example, like, I mean, it, it sounds cra a little bit crazy, but you can actually time hatches to when wild flowers bloom because you, you have the same effects of, you know, of heat and sunlight or what drive those flowers to bloom. Ron (22m 19s): And it, those are the same effects that like solar units that then would push your first like little stones to hatch in the spring. And then you need certain amount of frosts and water temperatures to drop in the fall to kick off your, your mahogany, you know, your mahogany may flies to hatch in the fall. I mean, so you see those cause and effects. And in Argentina and Patagonia you’re seeing it without like dewatering and, and you know, potential for all that ag. You know, I think, you know, I don’t know if you know fertilizers, I mean I, we’ve had clients from Ireland that talk about, you know, the farms are using so many fertilizers, how that affects, you know, fisheries. Ron (23m 2s): So what you’re, you’re seeing is the effect of climate change without a lot of the other human variables, you know, affecting the river as well. So it’s a little bit pure in that sense. So climate change is certainly happening and you see it in, in Patagonia for sure. Dave (23m 18s): Yeah. You see it there. It’s just, yeah, that makes sense. Just less of the other variables down there because it’s more wild. It’s Ron (23m 24s): Exactly. I mean, and so that’s, I think that’s part of, you know, that being a scientist, I think that’s part of what, you know, is so hard on rivers like the Deschutes or the big hole to untangle all those variables, right? So Dave (23m 37s): Yeah. ’cause it’s not just one thing, right? It, it’s, it’s a bunch of things and that’s what makes it challenging. But yeah, it was, it was interesting talking to the big hole foundation because they were just, it feels like they’re trying to get a handle of it, you know, and then they’re doing some good research, so that’s good. But yeah. Let’s talk about the, basically the, the ranch, the lodge you have there now, where is it exactly? Where would people be flying into to get down there? Ron (23m 59s): Well, you still fly into Chapo airport, which is just outside of San Martin. The lodge and the, and the river are about equid distance actually from either San Martin Che or the provincial capital of nail Ken. But because our operations base, all our guides live in San Martin, you know, that’s where my wife’s from. That’s where our house is, you know, still logistically it’s easier to tie in, you know, picking people up and dropping ’em off. ’cause we’re, we’re still fishing, you know, sort of multiple rivers in a given sort of trip. So we’re not just fishing lema, although that’s one element of, of the trip. And more and more people are sort of, you know, so electing to, you know, fish more days on the Li Ma or fish exclusively on the Li Ma. Ron (24m 45s): So the, the liai actually, if you look at the, the watershed comes out from Veloce out of a lake called N Wapi. And it heads, you know, east and then it joins up with another major tributary called the rum Quora. And then that heads into a whole series of these reservoirs. And then we’re fishing. It’s a, it’s a tailwater out from beneath one of these dams. But unlike the American West, which are predominantly all tailwaters, this is really the only tailwater and in like the whole area that we’re, that we fish. So. Dave (25m 18s): Right. And are these brown, mostly brown trout down here as far as the species? And are these not sea run browns? Ron (25m 25s): Correct. These are not sea run browns, but actually, you know, if you look at, you know, sort of cross section of the trout population in the river, you, it’s about 60, 70% rainbows and then 30%, 40, 30% browns in the river. And so what you have is you have sort of these resident, you know, fish that live in the river year round, and then you have these migratory browns that come up out of the reservoir, out out of the Choon reservoir and they move up into the river, you know, sort of periodically or seasonally. But it’s, you know, initially when I first went with Javier in, in the, in about 2001 is when we went out and were doing this sort of fact finding, you know, impact studies, you know, the li may as a fishery wasn’t unknown or what, what they call the LeMay me or the middle LeMay. Ron (26m 18s): It wasn’t unknown as a fishery, but all the argentines, you know, the sort of hardcore, you know, Argentine fly fishing society, I mean they all went in May because it was known as a, as a fall run of these monster brown trout. But what came to pass was in truth, they move up into the river much earlier in the than in the season than that. And that, you know, that’s sort of what we discovered. And we also sort of discovered a, a completely viable resident fishery in and of itself. So you have a very layered fishery. So it’s, imagine sort of like the Missouri River, if you had a run of steelhead except, you know, in this case you have a run of these migratory brown trout that they’re not coming from the ocean. Ron (27m 4s): They’re coming out of, you know, a reservoir that’s, you know, the size of Rhode Island essentially. Dave (27m 9s): Right. Yeah. And I think the Missouri kind of has some of that too. Doesn’t some of those fish that are going up into the lake and kinda rearing and then eating, growing and then coming back down. Well, there’s a lot of stuff going on there right, in the Missouri, Ron (27m 21s): Correct. Yeah. But, and there, as opposed to the part that I fish, which is, you know, near Wolf Creek Craig down to Cascade, that’s more up in the land of giants. And so that’s, that’s what you, you have there, you have a very, very short piece of river and then you have these migratory or these, this influx of these lake fish that are moving in and out of the river system, you know, over the course of the season. Right. But it’s not necessarily just a, a spawning run. So that’s, that’s what the liai was assumed to be initially. And then we, we found that in truth, that was much more dynamic than that. Dave (27m 55s): Gotcha. What, what is, if somebody was wanting to plan a trip down there to the lei, what is the, on timing, what, when are the, the good best times to, when are you seeing most of your people coming down? Ron (28m 6s): Well, so, I mean, a lot of our travel down south is more dictated or guided by when people wanna be out of the US right? So January and February is super popular ’cause that’s just when they don’t want to be in Chicago or, you know, whereas, you know, the, the fishing season are, are hatches actually run from, you know, around the end of November through, you know, mid-January and then you come into sort of terrestrial time through, you know, say around the first, you know, cold snap in mid-March. So right about now and then the fall starts, our fall bugs start around, you know, maybe the end of March and then run all the way into May. Ron (28m 49s): But the, these migratory fish, which sort of overlap, I mean, that creates a whole nother variable in the fishery. So you have, you know, your, your resident fish are running anywhere from, you know, 14 to 23 inches. And then you have these resident, these migratory fish that are coming up out of the reservoir. So, you know, Javier, my, you know, my aquatic biologist buddy who actually now guides for us, you know, these, these reservoir fish were getting to be 23 inches in, in three to four years. And they come up into the river, you know, anytime the first one starts trickling in, in December, usually through, there’s, throughout the system by mid-January. Ron (29m 31s): And then they’re in the system from, you know, mid-January all the way through May. And you have these sort of waves of fish that come in every time. ’cause it’s just like the White River in Arkansas. So you mentioned that the white earlier, it’s, the flows on the Le Ma are not based on ag, they’re based on electric, you know, hydro power. So you’ll have these massive fluctuations all the time. But from the inception of the river, from the minute they built the dam, that’s how flows were, were managed. And so the whole fishery generated, you know, or originated with that as a quantifier or what have you. So just like, you know, you talk to like the old boy, I actually went to college in, in St. Ron (30m 15s): Louis. So I, I fished the white, not very much, but I fished the white some, you know, and the old boys, they go out when it bumps. I mean they, you know, they go bounce, you know, crowd crud adds, you know, off the bottom in the light, you know, when the river bumps, that’s the time to get those big grounds. And so completely contrary to, you know, anything that you would, you know, so like on the Missouri, if they bumped the water, you know, 150 CCFs, it’ll totally screw up the fishing for the rest of the day. Whereas on the liai, you know, it doesn’t follow any of the, you know, normal patterns of what we’re used to, or at least what I’m used to in Montana as far as flows. And, you know, fishing goes, maybe it’s a lot more akin to like Lee’s Ferry or the White River. Ron (30m 60s): So just because the river comes up three feet doesn’t necessarily mean a, you know, it’s a bad thing. It’s just chain is Dave (31m 6s): Just still fishing it. How do you fish when you’re fishing, when it bumps up? How are you guys fishing that, like, talk about that a little bit. Are you guys out there in boats or how, how are you doing it? I find the big fish. Ron (31m 16s): Yeah. So we’re in, we’re in drift boats. I had a, a fortunate opportunity in, in the early two thousands road drift boats at that point, wa were being produced in St. Anthony, Idaho. And in the early two thousands they were making, making sort of their, their, their presence felt in the fly fishing world. And they were getting, you know, people like Lynn Sessions and, and the guides on the Henry’s Fork. They were getting those guides into their boats. And so right around those early two thousands is when Roe came out with their first drift boat, which was a, a skiff, a low sided boat. And then when I saw that, I was like, boy, that is the boat from Patagonia, you know, where we don’t have crazy whitewater, you know, our sort of the natural element we’re fighting against is the wind. Ron (32m 3s): And so we were actually able to make a deal with road drift boats and got one of their molds down into Argentina and started making row drift boats in the early two thousands. So we’re rowing row drift boats down in Argentina ’cause row basically facilitated and allowed us to build their boats in Argentina. So Dave (32m 23s): That’s cool. Yeah. Do you see, is it mostly down there, mostly row drift boats or do you see other drift boats too? Ron (32m 29s): There’s some other drift boats, but there’ve been boats that, you know, some somebody imported and then they splashed it and you know, sort of stole the model and, but ro is the only sort of legitimate authorized model of drift boat being, being used in, in Patagonia. Dave (32m 47s): Yeah. That’s the only one. Yeah, this is great. All right. I love a little drift boat doc. So, so you’re out there in the drift boats and, and you said again, they’re out there, these big fish are out throughout the whole season, kind of on and off wind. If you had to pick one time, you know, would you say is, it doesn’t matter whether it’s November or January or in March as far as when you wanna find those big fish Ron (33m 6s): For the biggest fish? I mean, we’ve had like peak weeks that will run anytime from mid-January through through May. I mean it’s, you know, as far as the big fish are going, you have to think about it much more like, you know, steelheading, I mean, you’re not gonna go get 2030 of these, you know, 23 to over 30 inch fish. You, you can have, you know, big fish number days on the Le Mi, but they’re not gonna be these migratory fish. So I mean, I think how dynamic the fishing experience is is part of what makes it such an interesting river. So you can go from like five x and fishing rusty spinners and, you know, finding cods of rising fish to, you know, fishing swung flies on zero x in within the given hour in the given day. Ron (33m 56s): So I think that’s what makes it such an intriguing fly fishing experience is that it’s not, you know, I love to steal that fish and I will go and swing a fly all day, you know, and I have, so for, you know, in the Clearwater and the salmon and up in BC and in Oregon, the Deschutes. But you know, it’s really fun to sort of hybrid that experience with a sort of true classic trout, you know, experience. So we’ve had peak days, you know, and oftentimes it’s right after one, you know, when the river bumps, it’ll turn on those fish in the, you know, within that first 40 minutes. And then those big bumps will also I think bring fish up outta the reservoir into the river. Ron (34m 39s): So not only do you turn on, you know, just like, you know, you need to rain on those coastal rivers in Oregon to, you know, turn those steelhead on or move them from one pool to the next and sort of re-energize them. You also get an influx of fresh fish into the river like you would on a coastal stream. So it’s, you know, these are all sort of working theories that, you know, apply. But again, you’re, you’re sort of looking at, you know, at these migratory fish and then also how it applies to how like trout behave. But you know, again, steelhead are migratory trout, so Dave (35m 15s): Yeah, they’re trout and, and is that how you fish the, those, those migratory you’re you swinging just like you would for steelhead? Exactly, Ron (35m 21s): Yeah. And so, I mean, think summer steelhead, right? Except these are brown trout, but they behave very, Dave (35m 29s): Or even Atlantic salmon, right? ’cause that’s probably the closer species to the or I guess, right? Ron (35m 33s): Absolutely. So I mean, you can, again, these fisher, when we first showed up, I mean we essentially during the summer months, my partner Diego Geyser, who I guided with, and then ultimately Javier started guiding with us in like 2006, 2007. I mean, we were applying essentially trout techniques, you know, while you were drifting down the river. You know, the classic way to fish the le May was sort of step swing, step swing. But now we’re applying, you know, drift boat, you know, now we’re in a drift boat, which nobody was using on the river at that time. We were using suddenly now, okay, well how do you, how do you copy, you know, step swing out of a drift boat and then yet we have to get between from one run to the next. Ron (36m 20s): So we might as well be drifting a fly from one drift to, you know, from one run to the next. So then what we’ll fish for these rainbows in between these big brown trout spots and then all your sort of, your techniques sort of blend together, right? So while you’re in between, you know, sort of these holding spots for these big migratory fish, you know, you’re fishing rainbows and then you end up as a bycatch randomly and accidentally catching these big browns. So then you figure out that they will react to trout techniques, standard trout techniques. So we were raising migratory browns on a twitch and sit, you know, like you would twitch a hopper or twitch a big terrestrial. Ron (37m 3s): We were catching, suddenly we were getting these 24, 27 inch browns to rise up to these drives. And so then we started mixing all these techniques and then given certain conditions, it’ll all work for both fish. So it’s really right. Interesting. Dave (37m 20s): So you guys aren’t necessarily doing the, the get in like the steelhead and getting a run and spend an hour stepping, swinging through a run? You’re not really doing that? Ron (37m 28s): Not as much because what we found was, was during the bright sun of the day, and a lot of this we were, we were staying in this local town and then, you know, you’d, you pay these local ranchers to come in to, you know, access the river. You’d put in, you’d pay this guy, you know, 15 bucks to drive in the car and, and you put in on one property and maybe take out on the same property or put in on the son’s property and take out on the dad’s property. But we couldn’t get in the river, it dawned. And so some of these, you know, we could catch those big browns in the heat of the day in the bright, you know, sun at one o’clock, two o’clock in the afternoon. But we were picking them up, you know, in these big drops and these deep runs that were like 20 to 30 feet deep. Ron (38m 13s): But you could do it during the day, but you couldn’t reach those spots. The majority of those spots you couldn’t reach on foot. And so most of our fishing was sort of, you know, and our tactics were, you know, out of the boat in deeper water. And what we have found in running the lodge and then being able to go to the river in steelhead type, you know, timeframes is that actually those big browns are coming out. And again, these are working theories that, you know, we certainly don’t have the, the final say or word on the river, but you know, the, it seems to be that they’re, those browns are coming out and foraging at night, and then if you’re there before first light, you know, you can actually jump ’em in water that’s less than a meter deep. Ron (38m 59s): Now you can actually walk and swing those, those runs with classic steelhead techniques, you know, at dawn and, and, and dusk timeframes. So. Dave (39m 10s): Gotcha. So that’s it. So the sun, yeah, so they are, so the sun, that’s cool. So you could swing, if you wanted to get out earlier late, you have probably a better chance ’cause they’re in little the shallower water. Ron (39m 20s): Exactly. Yeah. And then, so now with, you know, now with either a, you know, a single handed rod or a switch rod, now those fish are, you know, you can reach them in those low light situations. That’s what we’ve come to find. So I see. Dave (39m 36s): I mean, right. So there you go. Yeah, Ron (39m 37s): Most clients are still, you know, wanna have breakfast at eight and go out in the boat and not get up early and using a boat. They don’t have to, Dave (39m 45s): Right? They don’t have to. But you could, if you were a hardcore swinger, like spay, you wanted to like catch, you know, your thing was spay all around the world and you wanted to swing one up traditional style, you could do it there. Ron (39m 56s): Absolutely. Well, and what we ended up doing was we started using, and I, you know, because I’m a steel header, then I was applying these tactics and so we started using switch rods outta the boat. And so you can’t, you know, it’s, I’ve only been able to do it, or I’ve only seen it done once out of a drift boat where I had two guys using switch rods. But you can comfortably use a switch rod out of the front of the boat. And it’s really fun because if you think about it, and I’m, you know, I mean, while I’ve fished a spay rod since, I don’t know, maybe the late nineties, I’m, you know, I’m far from an expert, but you know, as you know, as you, as you wander down a run, you know, you’ll get little deeper pockets and shorter pockets, you know, and suddenly you’ll be within two steps, you’ll be a foot shallower deeper and then that changes your anchor, right? Ron (40m 46s): So, so outta the boat, your anchor and your distance from the surface of the water is constant. So then your anchor and your stroke is constant. So it’s actually, it’s quite easy out of the drift boat or outta these skiffs to, you know, do a snake roll or a, or a snap tee because your distance from the surface of the water is consistent throughout the whole day, right? So we weren’t teaching people to do that, but we were teaching lay people, you know, take a strip or two, do a big sloppy roll cast and then overhand cast it. And so that would allow even, you know, intermediate beginner anglers to consistently throw, maybe it’s just the head is, you know, maybe 40, 45, 50 feet line. Ron (41m 30s): But using the boat that was enough to cover the sweet spots and all these runs. And so initially we were using like, you know, six weight, you know, like 12, 11 foot switch rods. We were using that of the front of the boat just to help people cover water using, you know, using an overhand cast. And so that took a lot of the work out of covering water, you know, and what we found in the guide day was trying to balance out, you know, exposing essentially traditional trout fishermen to steelheading or steelhead techniques to cover these brown trout. So it was this whole hybridization of all these sort of techniques, right? Ron (42m 10s): That’s cool. Which was really, really fun inventing all this stuff, right? So, Dave (42m 13s): Right. And at the same time, you’re still getting those big, the hatches, right. In those times, which is kind of the what, March you said? February, March, April, Ron (42m 21s): Yeah. So in, in January we’re still getting cadu. It wasn’t until we were there from, you know, from November through December we started seeing all the mayfly hatches. And this all goes back to the first day that I was on the river with Javier. I was like, well, how are these fish getting to be 17 inches in three years? And he, and he handed me the keys to the kingdom the very first day. He was like, well, it’s all on catis and mayfly. Like, well, so there’s no mice, shrimp, or any of the, you know, power foods that we associate with tail waters, you know, like sow bugs or, or m mighty shrimp or lys and no, it’s all primarily, you know, cat and mayflies. Ron (43m 2s): Well, you know, by default all those bugs have to hatch. So, you know, we get March Browns in Cahills early in the season, November, December, and then the cat is start mid-December and it’ll run through January. And I mean, I remember, you know, what’s strange is, is those McLeod rainbows are so crummy, they’re a lot more like bonefish in color than say your Deschutes river red sides. And all of our trout in the American West have been hybridized. Like, so the matus is perfect, you know, so there’s probably, you know, if you look at, at those, at the genetics of the trout that are in the matatus today, you’ll see white tips on their, on their, you know, their fins and little, some of them will have little orange notches on their dorsal. Ron (43m 52s): Well, those are all, you know, harken back to those McLeod fish and then the standard, you know, the native Deschutes fish or those red sides. And that’s where you get, you know, those darker colors and those, you know, red cheeks. But the, you know, the native original, you know, strain that came outta the McLeod, those, they have very little pink, you know, they’re very crummy, you know, very little color to those fish. And so the, the rainbows that are in the, in the Levi are essentially, you know, a hundred percent pure genetics out of the, the cloud. And they have hardly any, you know, pink to them. So Right. Dave (44m 32s): The coloration. That’s interesting. Ron (44m 33s): Yeah. So the river is like New Zealand clear. I mean, at 15 feet you can see every single rock and pebble on the bottom of the river. And that’s why, you know, some of these skating floating line techniques works in these, you know, pools that are 20, 30 feet deep is ’cause the water’s so crystal clear. But when you’re floating down the river, you see hardly the only fish that you actually see are these monster brown trout. All the rainbows are, you know, all you can see is they’re shadows. You don’t actually see the fish initially. You think that there’s like no fish in the river ’cause you can’t see ’em. And how can I not see ’em when I can see every pebble? But then you get one of these hatches and suddenly there’s pods of tam 1520 fish, you know, feeding behind, you know, a willow and go, oh my god. Ron (45m 21s): Well there’s thousands of fish in here, you know? And true to any tail water, it has those kinds of trout concentrations Dave (45m 30s): On DeMar Lodge offers a world-class experience with one of the finest rainbow trout and brown trout fisheries in the world. They’re family owned and operated. Missouri River Lodge offers comfortable accommodations, delicious home cooked meals and personalized service that make you feel like family days on the water are capped off by appetizers, beverages, dinner and stories on the back deck and around the campfire. Book your stay for an unforgettable fly fishing adventure where memories are made and the fish stories are real. You can head over right now to wet fly swing.com/on DeMar, that’s O-N-D-E-M-A-R-K on DeMar right now to book your magical Missouri River trip. Dave (46m 12s): What was it before? If you go back before the rainbows were planted, what was the native species that were in there? Ron (46m 18s): You know, the largest fish were called are called perca, which are, they look like, you know, like a, a small mouth bass. Dave (46m 26s): Is that perca? Is that with a B or how do you spell that? Ron (46m 28s): With a p Perca. Dave (46m 30s): Oh, perca. Ron (46m 31s): Yeah. And the ENT final translate it to like, it’s a perch, but it has, you know, they don’t look anything like perch. They, they look, they look much, you know, a lot more like somewhere between a walleye and a and a and a small mouse bass Dave (46m 45s): On a bass. Right, right. Yeah. So do you guys still catch perk in there? Yeah. Ron (46m 49s): Yeah. And the, you know, I don’t know that the, the perca tend to like, you know, deep, slow pools, slow eddies, you know, they predate on the trout for sure, but they will, you will find them. I remember the very first, one of the first days I was floating the ura, which was one of the other, you know, rivers close to Barchi and SanMar, you know, one of the argentines we were floating behind as we scouted the river, like pointed out, you know, this Eddie. And there was a bunch of perca in there, you know, rising on, on may flies actually. And I spent, you know, maybe 15 minutes before, before I realized that we were throwing, you know, a non trout species and the Argentine thought it was really funny that he had, you know, waylayed us and diverted us throwing at these perca or what have you. Ron (47m 35s): But it was kind of funny leaf. Dave (47m 37s): God, that’s great. So, but the most of the fish you guys are catching are, are trout. You’re not catching a lot of perca? Ron (47m 42s): No, I mean, if you, if you threw thinking lines and streamers in the slowest, deepest pools, then, you know, then you’d catch perca and, and there’s still perca in all the, you know, in all the local rivers. But, you know, but they don’t live in the riffles and the, and the runs. They’re in the slowest, deepest pools as you know, the water that they prefer. And, and they do wet, they do better in the warmer water, like the cour and the illumine. Dave (48m 8s): Gotcha. Okay. So we’ve talked a little about, you know, on just the species, and again, the trip, it sounds like it’s pretty open depending on what you want to do. I mean, it, does it really matter, I guess, if you wanna hit a certain hatch or something? Do you find people are just coming whenever they have time off and, you know, hitting that area? Is there, you know, if we were planned a trip, what would you tell us? When would be a good time to start? Ron (48m 29s): Yeah, there thing to be two sort of avenues of how people plan their trips. And, and usually it’s either like, hey, this is, you know, this is the window I have, you know, that I’ve negotiated with my partner, my boss off, or when I can come down with my buddy or my wife, this is the timeframe that I have is one avenue, you know, and what’s the best fishing for these dates? Or, you know, I’d like to plan a eight to 10 day trip to Patagonia. When’s the best time to come? And then, you know, best time is quite relative to each individual person. And because these trips are all custom designed, then, you know, and we have access to actually like seven big ranches. Ron (49m 11s): So the, the Our Lodge on the Le May is on an 80,000 acre property where we’ve got, you know, over 30 miles of, you know, private access. And that’s really sort of the, the heart and the key of the beauty of these, you know, the trips that we’re putting together is, is being out on these monster, you know, big, you know, what used to be sheep, you know, and cattle ranches, you know, now converted into fishing properties. Dave (49m 36s): So that’s what they are now. They’re, they’re literally just fishing properties now. That’s the focus. Ron (49m 40s): Yeah. Originally, you know, in Patagonia, all these ranches really made money in wool and sheep. And then, you know, the wool market sort of crashed in the thirties and the forties. And Patagonia was, you know, quite a, a tough place to be a rancher until maybe the last 20 years where they could make money on some cattle. They’re not great cattle properties, but they could make money on cattle. And then if they were fortunate enough to have a great trout river flowing through ’em, then they made, you know, some money on, on trout and then, you know, and, and there’s some red stag hunting down there as well. Okay. Dave (50m 13s): Oh right. And there’s some hunting, so you get some hunters pride, a little, both guys come down there hunting and fishing on the same trip. Ron (50m 19s): Yeah. In March and April. You can do that on some properties. I mean, not, you know, not every property is a great hunting property. Not every great, you know, hunting property is a great fishing property, but there are, there are some overlaps for sure on some, on some of the properties, but a lot of it, you know, is you’re, your overtime is, we, we tend to get, people will come back year after year. I mean, most people, it’s like, you know, sort of a bucket list. You know, we, we need to go new New Zealand and Mongolian and, you know, we should go to Patagonia once. And I think that, you know, a lot of people are surprised just by the quality of the experience. And they, you know, we were probably at like 60, 65% return clientele because it surprises people, you know, just how special it is to fish Montana 60 years ago. Dave (51m 7s): Right. You know, that’s pretty much that, that’s what you’re, you’re providing, right. That’s kind of the big thing. Right. It’s less people, all the natural beauty. What, what about some of the animals out there? What, what are the, what are you seeing? Is there, are there many kind of, of the other animals that you wouldn’t see in Montana? Yeah, Ron (51m 22s): So the, you know, the native animals that, you know, that you would see on the, on the course of a, on the course of a trip are the kos, which is a type of llama actually. But it’s like a anaco is like an alpaca, but not, you know, not as heavy of a coat. They range, you know, in groups of 10 to 2030, you know, all over Patagonia. I mean, Patagonia is actually an area like the Rockies. I mean, it, it encompasses multiple, you know, essentially multiple states or provinces. And it actually goes between Argentina and Chile. You know, the most famous part is the, the part around the Andes, but the majority of it is wide open steps. Ron (52m 3s): Right. And that’s where the Kos really flourishes in big broad open steps. And then there’s a, a flightless bird that if you looked it up on a bird book is a lesser raya. And then depending on what part of, of Patagonia you’re in, or called Cho or Nandu. But it’s a, it’s a Flightless bird that, you know, if you saw, you know, passing by in the truck, you’d think it was an ostrich or a raya. And there’s lots of those. Those are native. And then, you know, red stag have been introduced out of Europe as long as wild Russian boar. And then there’s foxes. You have red foxes, there’s puma. Those are native. Dave (52m 43s): Oh, puma. Yep. Ron (52m 44s): There are puma, which is, you know, the equivalent to a, a mountain lion Dave (52m 48s): Cougar. Yeah. Yeah. Are you seeing, have you ever seen a puma out there? I have. Ron (52m 51s): I’ve seen three down in, in Argentina actually. You know, as I understand, again, this, you know, you’d have to check it with a biologist, but I understand actually there’s a higher concentration of puma now than there was originally. Because since they introduced the red stag and the red stag, the only, you know, natural predator they would have would be the puma, because there’s no, you know, the, the Dave (53m 15s): Nothing big enough. Ron (53m 16s): Right. The other largest predator are foxes and, and you know, essentially coyote sized foxes that aren’t big enough, even in a group, a pack to hunt the, the red stags. So their only natural predator are the cou, you know, would be the cougar or the puma. So there’s really high concentrations of puma now that they didn’t historically have. So you have maybe 160,000 acre property and they might, you know, the gouges, you know, just on natural reflex will, you know, it’s just part of their nature protecting sheep, you know, over, over multiple generations of, of gauchos. They, you know, they would just shoot a puma on site and 160,000 acre property. Ron (53m 60s): They might shoot 11 to 14 puma in, in the, you know, over a given year. So that gives you a sense of the concentration of Puma that are, that are out there. But I’ve, I’ve seen, you know, you fish in evening hatch until dark and driving clients back. I mean, you know, I’ve come across maybe, I guess I’ve seen four puma over, over my career since 1995 down there, you know, without going and looking for them, but just Sure. Stumbling across them. Yeah. Dave (54m 27s): Kinda like similar, that’s similar to Yeah. The cougars back home. Right. You, you might see if you’re lucky see two or three or four of those in your, you know, over your life maybe. Yeah. Ron (54m 35s): I’ve seen one in Orino. I mean, I think my dad’s seen two elk hunting in the, in the blue mountains and, and around. I mean, it’s not very common to see a, you know, to see a, a cougar in the, in the wild unless you’re trying to find them. Dave (54m 50s): Yeah. Awesome. Well, this is great. I think I want to get some tips, talk a few tips and tricks here, but let’s start to take it outta here in a bit. This is our kind of our, our travel segment. Obviously we’re traveling down there. We’re, we’re also putting together a trip, like we said, Atlantic salmon, that is a big one on our bucket list and wanna give a big shout out to Mountain Waters Resort. We’re heading out to Fish Atlantic Salmon in Newfoundland. And the cool thing is, is that, you know, we’ll have a group of people up there. I haven’t done this yet, so it’s gonna be exciting to chase those down. So we’re gonna give a shout out to Mountain Waters Resort on this part of the segment. I just wanna ask you, you know, it sounds like you’ve obviously spent in a couple of big places. Do you have anything trips out there you’re still looking at? Dave (55m 30s): Or do you even have time to get out and go chase, you know, fish other places around the world? Ron (55m 34s): Well, actually I just did. I just went up to BC for the first time, which was a life Oh, nice bucket list. And, you know, boy, it’s, it’s hard not to fall in love with that place. Holy Toledo. That was really magical. I fished the Suta with Sweetwater Travel was Dave (55m 50s): Oh, SUTA. Now is the sus stat, is that what system? Is that on the, or is that a different system? Yeah, Ron (55m 55s): That’s way high up in the Cheena. Oh, Dave (55m 58s): Okay. System, right. Ron (55m 59s): Yeah. So it was a phenomenal experience, you know, And it was the wa the water was really cold, but I, you know, I skated dry flies through my, through my whole week there and that, so it was really neat, you know? Dave (56m 11s): No kidding. That was, did you guys have any action? Yeah. Oh Ron (56m 14s): Yeah. I mean, I caught, I mean, I think I caught probably 80% of my fish that way. ’cause I just stuck with it. I, I, it was, that’s the only way I really wanted to catch ’em. So I was just as happy to turn one as I was to catch one. So it was fantastic. And then, you know, Jim Klug and those guys have turned me on and, you know, I’ve been able to jump on a, you know, a last minute canceled spot, you know, and Chase Tarpon down in Belize and stuff, so that was really fantastic. Dave (56m 42s): Amazing. Ron (56m 42s): But there’s tons of destinations all over the world to hit school. I Dave (56m 45s): Know. I know. Yeah. That’s, that’s it. Well, well you got a couple, you know, you’re in two of the hotspots, so you got that covered, but what was that fly you used in bc the skater? Did you use a bunch or just one main fly? Ron (56m 57s): I had a friend of mine, Steve Schmidt, that, that owns Western Rivers, fly Fishers in, in Utah and Salt Lake. He showed me some patterns that, that his, his favorite steelhead guy up there outta Smithers. And honestly, I wish I could do him justice saying, you know, who it was, I can’t remember now. But he showed me a pattern and then I sort of adapted it. But it essentially, it’s got like mouth, it’s got moose outriggers, and then, so I adapted it for, for steelhead. And then, and then that’s where I adapted that pattern. And I actually use it on the lemi quite a bit. So it’s just the foam and then with moose outriggers, and then you can tie it in different color combinations, you know, moose obviously it’s, it’s like one of the stiffest natural fighters. Ron (57m 41s): So, but you can get it bleached. It tends to, you know, the fibers aren’t quite as stiff if you bleach it, but, but you can bleach it and then you can get into tans and, and then combine that with pinks and, and, you know, but black and purple’s great and low light. And then, you know, you can use gold in tan, like those, your, you’ve got your muddler colors if you, you work in those color combinations or tan and pink. So I use those in, in BC and then use them on the lei Dave (58m 9s): And lei. Right. So you could use C up on the lei too. You could do that same stuff down there. Ron (58m 14s): Absolutely. Yep. Dave (58m 16s): Wow. So you could get one of those big migratory browns on a skated fly. Ron (58m 19s): Yeah, I mean, it, again, it’s, it’s hard to, you know, Dave (58m 22s): It’s hard to do, right? Ron (58m 23s): If you’re a steelhead, you know, then, then if you go in knowing, okay, my target is one or two fish a day, then you can, if you, I mean, in my guiding career, that’s all I did for the last 15 years, but there is a certain human element in not pulling the fly away, because the beauty of fishing that skated fly outta the boat in this crystal clear water is you get, you get to see the whole, you see the pre eat, which is so amazing. But, you know, if you’re a trout fisherman, then it’s really easy to pull the fly away. So if you’re a steel header, then you can sort of have your nerves of steel and wait and wade it through. Ron (59m 5s): Right. Wow. So it’s a lot easier to catch them on, you know, a swung streamer because you’re taking the human element out of it. But I’d say in general, your productivity, you will get as many fish to the fly, whether you’re fishing, floating line in a skated fly, or a, you know, or a th fly. I, in most days, it honestly doesn’t matter, but there’s a lot of days at two o’clock in the afternoon where you haven’t raised one. And so people are like, gosh, you know, you know, should we change the fly? And my response was always, well, let’s have it, we change the music, but, you know, if it’s easy to, to fall back on, ah, we, you know, we’ll just fish a streamer and you know, oh, at four we finally got one on the streamer. Ron (59m 50s): Whereas if you stuck with a dry, you’d still get the one on a dry. But it’s, it’s easy to fall into that. Yeah, Dave (59m 56s): You gotta stick with it. We have a series of episodes, actually it’s Brian Sket, the Ski of Spay Lodge. He hosts our, like West coast steelhead stuff. And he had, he, he was doing a, an episode recently where they’re talking about one of the guys there just fishes dry flies in the wintertime for steelhead. Right. It’s like, it’s, you know, that’s all he does. So again, it all comes back to what you want to do, you know? Right. You set, like you did up in bc you did the same thing. You’re like, Hey, I’m gonna, that’s, I’m not gonna fish any wet flies. Right. You fish dries the whole time, right? Ron (1h 0m 24s): Yeah. And I mean, I stuck with dry, and I mean, as far as fish to the fly compared to everybody else that we’re throwing tips and, you know, once the river’s stable, I honestly, I don’t, I didn’t notice any different in camp that week, for example. I mean, there was a definite difference when we got some rain and the water was off color, then, you know, that, that obviously switches everything. But when conditions were stable, I didn’t, you know, I didn’t see any difference whatsoever as far as fish to the fly. Yeah, Dave (1h 0m 55s): That’s it. Okay, cool. And, and I’ll put a link to that episode 15 of in the Bucket Adrian Cortez. Nice. And he’s, he’s the guy in the, Richard Herriton has the podcast, the River Rambler. So we’ll get a link out to that. Let’s give a couple of quick tips here. So if you’re thinking brown trout, let’s just think of Fish and Patagonia, are there any, you know, a few, two or three tips you would give that are you’d give somebody new to Paton down there fishing that also maybe might work in Montana? Or is it pretty specific? If you had to say somebody’s coming there, let’s just take ’em to that dryly, we’re not talking the swinging we’re talking just catching some brown trout on the surface. What’s the key there? What are some few things you should know before getting into that trip? They’re on their way down there. Ron (1h 1m 33s): Well, I think, I mean, I think for, for both the rainbows and the browns, like just trout fishing in Patagonia, I mean, they will react to a lot more movement on your fly compared to, you know, rivers out west. I mean, that might not be true of all, all rivers out west. I mean, I know on the South Fork they like to fish a hopper with a, an occasional twitch. But for the rivers I’ve, you know, that I guided on, you know, usually you’ve gotta work hard to achieve long drag, free drift for well-educated fish, you know, in Montana, you know, whereas in Patagonia there’s still, still so naive that they actually will oftentimes react a lot better to, you know, having movement on your fly. Ron (1h 2m 16s): And that’s just, you know, angle or pressure on the river. So they’re, they just haven’t been popped, you know, enough down in Argentina to, you know, educate them against reacting to that movement. Dave (1h 2m 28s): What is that, what, what you call it before, what, what’s the type of twitching or what, what do you do down there? How would you describe it? Ron (1h 2m 33s): I call it like the twitching sit. So like every, every like three to four feet, you know, you might like give it a little pop, Dave (1h 2m 40s): Just just kind of pop up your rod a little bit, pop your tip up. Yeah. Ron (1h 2m 43s): And then there’s also times where you’re essentially fishing, you know, top water streamers. So these are, you know, flies that wake like wounded minnow type patterns where the flies actually like a struggling minnow in the surface. Again, these, I think those, you think about those apex predators. So you see it on the White River, those guys are really successful with mice patterns at night, you know, but so those are low light situations where those predators come out. The difference is that, you know, we don’t seem, they’re feeding behavior doesn’t seem to be so nocturnal compared to, you know, compared to the states. So they’ll eat in bright light. Ron (1h 3m 25s): But the, it’s more like, you know, coming across an apex predator, you know, on the Serengeti, like those lions don’t eat every day, but when they do, they’ll, you know, those big brown trout will eat all kinds of stuff. I mean, I’ve caught ’em, you know, where they’ve burped up frogs. I mean, I found a brown trout one time with, with a, you know, with a, with a garter snake in its gut. I mean, Browns will eat all kinds of stuff if they’re ready to eat, if it’s worth enough calories. Right. So, Dave (1h 3m 52s): Yeah. And, and that top rodder streamer, what, what does that, what, what a fly look like that you’re fishing that Ron (1h 3m 57s): Well imagine like our early versions where if you imagine like a, a woolly bugger, like a white woolly bugger with a Chernobyl ant on top of it, we call those early, early manifestations, we call them Chewbacca, is we call those flies. Dave (1h 4m 12s): Right? That’s good. But Ron (1h 4m 14s): That’s essentially what it is. If you took a wooly bugger, a skinny woolly bugger, and then you put a Cher land on top of it. Dave (1h 4m 20s): Yep. So it’s floating, right? The wooly bugger’s just floating in the surface, right? And, and then you got some sort of waking thing on it, or how, how are you, how are you getting, what’s the action you’re putting on that fly? Ron (1h 4m 28s): Well, and then, And it would depend, I mean, we had, you know, because again, those browns, like when they were turned on, and they are exposed to lots of, there are still lots of native minnows in the rivers down there, so you could, you could fish those flies on like a, on a streamer strip. So just like you would strip a streamer, you could strip those top water flies as well. Dave (1h 4m 50s): Yeah, right. God, that’s great. Nice. So, so yeah, we got a, a couple tips of what, and what else, just generally, if somebody is, again, thinking about Patagonia, what do you think is the, you know, somebody’s new to it their first time. What, what do you think is the most surprising thing that most people when they get down there, they didn’t think of, they weren’t, you know, they, they were surprised to see when they get there. Ron (1h 5m 8s): I mean, I think it’s a mix. I mean, I think that people are surprised just, you know, like how friendly, how easy it is to, you know, to be in Argentina and Patagonia. I mean, people have the same reaction on the Chilean side as well, but just how welcoming, how easy it is to be there. You know, I mean the Argentines are, are really quick to make friendships and, and give you a hug. And I think that how, how, how open, you know, the, the, the people are is, is really welcoming and, and, and surprising. And then just how pristine those fisheries are. You know? And I think hopefully the distance away from, you know, the population centers will keep ’em protected and it’s sort of the very thing that makes ’em special is, is maybe what’ll be their downfall. Ron (1h 5m 58s): But, but I think, you know, ’cause certain fisheries certainly have, you know, five times, 10 times as much traffic as they do as they did when I was there when I first arrived. Dave (1h 6m 8s): Oh, right. Yeah. So it’s getting busier. It’s getting busier there than it was when you started Ron (1h 6m 12s): Undeniably. I mean, when Diego and I first, and Ja and Javier, when we first started floating the Liai, I mean, we literally didn’t see another boat for 10 years Wow. During the January to March timeframe. I mean, just nobody else was fishing the river. ’cause that’s not, when you went there, you went there, you know, like Montana guides go to the Clearwater, you go after your trout season’s over. So they would go end of April and May. And I mean, we essentially had the river do ourselves, you know, in December, you know, late December through March, we had it to ourselves for like a decade. And so eventually, you know, now maybe we see, you know, because the logistics of these properties are so massive, it’s, it’s not even, even doing an, it’s not easy doing an overnight flow trip. Ron (1h 6m 59s): I mean, it’s just not easy keeping ice cold for longer than four days. Right. And that’s what the logistics demand in floating through some of these properties where you have a public access to a public access or a public access to a, you know, a pay and play access. So it’s just not easy logistically floating through some of these properties. Dave (1h 7m 20s): And so that’s the cool thing about what you, with the ranch is that you guys have these areas where you can kind of do these like day trips and it’s essentially you have easy access. Is that kind of versus say somebody coming down there trying to DIY it or something like that? Ron (1h 7m 32s): Correct. I mean, DIY is, you know, I mean, yes, you can go and park on some public access spots and, and wade into the river because, you know, like Patagonia falls under the same laws as Dave (1h 7m 45s): Oh, it does, it’s public access. Ron (1h 7m 47s): Yeah. So once you’re in the water, you can hike up and down as far as you want. But you know, these properties, some of these properties have anywhere from 10 to 40 miles of private access. So I mean, a a normal person can, you know, is only gonna walk a mile or two in and then you, you still have to get back to your car. So, and then, you know, having all the infrastructure in order to do, you know, in order to do an overnight flow trip, you know, that’s not just something you can pack in your duffle bag. Dave (1h 8m 15s): Yeah, this is definitely right. Patagonia, this area is probably the DIY is tough, even though I know that there are some people that do it. It’s, you know, getting some sort of a, a connection. Do you guys do something where, you know, somebody could come down there, Maybe, you know, they go, maybe they’re gonna be down there for an extended period, they come and fish with you guys and then people are going off and hanging out? Or is it more people are coming down just for the week and then that’s that’s their trip? Ron (1h 8m 38s): Yeah, most people come down for anywhere from seven to 12 days of fishing. I mean, we’ve reti, you know, most, a lot of the people that come down are, are retired. So we’ve had people that, you know, come down for a month and we’ll do like, you know, fish four days and then take a couple days off and fish four days or what have you. I mean, I’ve always kitted and said, you know, we’re in the business of saying yes as much as possible, but there’s, there’s a, you know, a ton of, well, I wouldn’t say there’s a ton, but there’s a significant number of expats that, you know, come down and rent a house for the season and then you’ll rent a truck. And, and especially, you know, early and late in the season, there’s a lot of, you know, pretty quality public access water that you can fish. Ron (1h 9m 19s): I mean, in our area, I think it’s pretty well balanced that you have, you know, about half the rivers are easily accessible, you know, through public access. And then the other half is, is you need a boat or a private access. I think, I mean, I think it’s, in a lot of ways it’s a good model to show how, you know, diverse types of access can, you know, can really facilitate lots of different types of use. I mean, I think that, you know, you can make a good case in Montana now that the state’s reeling back and trying to figure out, well, how do we, how do we protect the experience of fly fishing that we’ve really overrun and then balance out that out with, you know, sort of the public, right, of everybody should have the right to go and fish, which everybody should have. Ron (1h 10m 11s): But how do you protect that with, you know, fisheries that are overused or you can even say abused. I mean, those are difficult issues right now that, you know, Montana’s trying to to deal with. And you can see in function how well it works in Argentina where you have high-end businesses that you know, ha are, you know, exist because of limited access and yet still hack the river is is openly accessible through public access and, and those people, you know, rent homes and, and pay for hotel rooms and pay for ranches. And so I think there, you see a, a potential working model for multifaceted use, right. Ron (1h 10m 56s): But of course the pressure’s always gonna be to, you know, cut down fences and we should have access to, you know, these what are essentially public fisheries, you know, but you can’t go through private lands to get to ’em. So these are working issues, right? That Dave (1h 11m 14s): Yeah, they are. No, it’s interesting. It’s, it’s cool to to hear the, you know, the, the differences, right? I mean the, and similarities between the two places. And since you’re there, it’s, it’s really interesting. Well, I think Ron, we can leave it there for today. We will send everybody out to clea fly fishing.com, that’s CE fly fishing.com for chocolate lab expeditions. And, and, and just give us on the chocolate lab, where, where does that, is that, do you have some, some dogs running around there? Is that, is that where the, the name comes from? Yeah, Ron (1h 11m 41s): Well, our first dog, when I, when I was, had the job offer and I went down to guy to Montana, I had just gotten my first, you know, my first dog, which was a chocolate lab, Molly. And, and so ended up traveling down with her occasionally on some, on some seasons. And so it was actually with my, my wife Vanessa. It was, it was one season where we didn’t know where we were gonna rent and live. So Molly stayed home with my parents, and so in a, in a moment of emotional weakness, we, we decided we would start our own business and, and Molly wasn’t there, so we named the business after her. Oh, Dave (1h 12m 16s): There you go. That’s awesome. Yeah. Cool. All right, Ron, well, we’ll send everybody out there and they can take a look and also check in with you on your, everything you have going there in Montana as well. But yeah, I appreciate your time today. This has been awesome and definitely I think what you’ve done is shed light, you know, again, like you said, some people are like, Hey, I’m in Montana. What do I need to go to Argentina for Patagonia or whatever. It’s like, you know, I think you spotlighted it today that yeah, it, it’s the experience and it’s, you know what I mean? It’s, it’s not the same. It’s a different area. So yeah, appreciate your time today and look forward to staying in touch. Okay. Ron (1h 12m 45s): Thank you so much, Dave. We really appreciate the opportunity. Dave (1h 12m 49s): Alright, that sounds unbelievable, right? You always wondered, I’m sure if I’m talking to some right here, you’ve been down there already, Maybe you haven’t been to this part of Patagonia, Maybe you haven’t been down there at all and you’re interested. This definitely is a place where you can mix it up, A mixture of migratory fish, trout, fishing on the surface. If you get a chance, check in with Ron at Clea, that’s c fly fishing.com. Let him know you heard this podcast and check in and find out what he has going on. Pick his brain a bit. If you haven’t already, please subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you get your podcast, and you’ll get the next episode delivered to you inbox. I want to give a quick shout out before we get outta here. Dave (1h 13m 30s): We talked about the Missouri on this episode. We are doing a Missouri trip This year, this fall. If you go to wetly swing.com/missouri right now, you can find out how many spots we have available. We’re gonna be hitting this for some of the big hatches in Montana, switching it right around. We’re not heading to Patagonia, but we are going to Montana. So if you’re interested, check in or send me an email, Dave, at web fly swing.com. All right, take a deep breath and let’s get onto the next thing. Hope you have a great morning. Hope you have a great afternoon or a great evening, wherever you are in the world, even if you’re in Patagonia right now listening. Appreciate you for stopping in today. We’ll talk to you soon. 2 (1h 14m 6s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly, swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing.com.

751 | Jeff Currier’s Quest for 500 Species on the Fly

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We’re joined once again by one of the most well-traveled fly anglers in the world — Jeff Currier. Jeff has now caught over 480 species on the fly, and he’s still going strong with his goal of hitting 500. From the Amazon to Africa, Australia to the Himalayas, Jeff shares some of his favorite fishing destinations, species stories, and a few close calls along the way. If you’ve ever dreamed of planning a global fly fishing trip, this episode is packed with tips and inspiration to get you started.


Show Notes with Jeff Currier on his Quest for 500 Species on the Fly. Hit play below! 👇🏻

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Episode Chapters with Jeff Currier on his Quest for 500 Species on the Fly

How Jeff Currier Started Counting Fish Species

Jeff didn’t set out to count how many fish species he’d caught on the fly. He just loved fishing and chasing cool fish around the world. But one slow day in the fly shop, he started writing down the different species he’d caught—and the list didn’t stop. His buddies finished theirs in minutes, but Jeff’s list took weeks. After going through old photos and journals, he realized he’d already landed over 200 species. That’s when things got serious. Now, with over 480 fish on his list, Jeff still works to add at least one new species every year—even saving a few “easy ones” like cobia and white crappie for when the list gets tough.

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April 5, 2025 “Never pass up a cast to a coral head when walking the flats. Often times there’s a nice surprise! Bohar Snapper – last week at Providence Atoll in the Seychelles” (Photo via: https://www.facebook.com/jeffcurrier65)

Jeff’s Show Season and Fish Art

Jeff just wrapped up another full fly fishing show season, finishing in Denver. But his calendar’s still packed—he’s off to host a trip in the Seychelles and later hitting clubs in Arizona and Oregon. When he’s not fishing or speaking, Jeff’s drawing. His fish art is done from memory using Sharpies or watercolor and ink, and it all started when he illustrated his own books. At shows and events, he’ll even sketch your favorite fish right on your fly box or pack—no reference needed. It’s affordable, unique, and just another way Jeff shares his passion for fish with the world. You can check more of his art here.

jeff currier
Photo via: https://www.jeffcurrier.com/artwork/fly-box-art/

A Fly Shop Legacy That Stretches Far and Wide

Jeff spent 23 years at the Jack Dennis Outdoor Shop in Jackson Hole—20 of those as the manager. That experience didn’t just shape his career; it helped shape a generation of anglers. Each season, Jeff worked alongside dozens of staff and guides, and now, years later, he still runs into many of them at shows and on the water. Whether it’s fishing with a former employee in Georgia or reconnecting with someone in Florida, Jeff’s time at the shop built more than skills—it built lifelong friendships across the fly fishing world.

Too Close for Comfort: Jeff’s Wildest Travel Encounters

From being held at knife point while hitchhiking across Malawi to locking eyes with a Bengal tiger in India, Jeff’s not just chasing rare fish—he’s dodging danger too. He once came face-to-face with a tiger that later attacked locals in the area. And if that wasn’t enough, he almost crashed in a helicopter while flying through the mountains of New Zealand with Jack Dennis. For Jeff, exploring new waters sometimes means risking it all.

Jeff’s Favorite Species by Continent

Jeff has fished nearly every continent (yes, even almost Antarctica!) chasing the world’s coolest species. From smallmouth bass to golden mahseer, here are some of his top picks:

  • North America – Smallmouth bass, Grass carp, muskies, and redhorse suckers
  • South America – Payara (aka vampire fish); Found deep in the Amazon, these fish are tough, toothy, and full of fight.
  • Africa – Nile perch; Jeff chases them in remote Cameroon rivers, often fishing at night among crocs and hippos.
  • Asia – Golden mahseer; He’s landed some monsters up to 30 lbs. Bhutan is one of his top destinations.
  • Europe – European grayling; Smaller and trickier than their Arctic cousins, they test Jeff’s euro nymphing patience.
  • Australia – Golden trevally; Jeff fished up north with Aussie Fly Fishers and even tried (and almost landed) an Indo-Pacific permit.
jeff currier
October 24, 2017 “Payara, or vampire fish, are hard-fighting acrobatic fish that test an angler’s skill while providing a thrilling fly fishing experience. Jeff Currier Global Fly Fishing with a Kendjam payara. Ph: @Ben Furimsky” (Photo via: https://www.facebook.com/kendjamlodge)

Life on the Road (and in the Van)

Jeff and his wife have been living the fly fishing show life out of their trusty Dodge Ram Winnebago Solis van. It’s not fancy, but it gets the job done. After flying back from Gabon, Jeff hit the road right away—visiting his mom in New Hampshire, speaking at shows in Massachusetts, New Jersey, Atlanta, and even squeezing in some fishing in Florida. The van works great… except that one night it dropped to one below zero and the heat ducts were blocked by boxes of coffee mugs! They froze that night but still made it to Denver. It’s all part of the adventure.

jeff currier
Photo via: https://www.facebook.com/jeffcurrier65

Jeff’s Top Travel Tips for Fly Fishing Adventures

Here are a few that’ll help make your next fishing trip a lot smoother:

  • Always give yourself a buffer day – If you miss a charter flight, you miss the trip. Leave early so you have time to adjust to jet lag too.
  • Check your rods – Don’t count on TSA letting you carry them on. Jeff once missed a flight to Egypt because of this.
  • Avoid short layovers – Give yourself 2–3 hours between flights to make sure you and your bags arrive together.
  • Bring snacks and water – Jeff packs a refillable bottle and a few Kate’s Bars (his go-to energy bar) to stay fueled during long travel days.
Photo via: https://www.facebook.com/KatesRealFood

You can find Jeff on Instagram @jeffcurrier65.

Facebook at Jeff Currier Global Fly Fishing

Visit his website at jeffcurrier.com.

jeff currier


Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below

Episode Transcript
Dave (2s): Today’s guest might be the most well-known fly fishing traveler in the world. He has been chasing new fish species most of his life, and now is approaching 500 fly cot fish species. And today you’re gonna get his updated best places to travel to in the world so you can dream up your next adventure in fly fishing. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare and what you can do to give back the fish species we all love. How’s it going? I’m Dave host of the We Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid. I grew up around a little fly shop and created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts out there. Jeff Courier artist, smallmouth, bass Nut, and our go-to angler for inspiration and travel tips is gonna take us into a big update today. Dave (49s): On the podcast, you’re gonna find out why some of his favorite fish to catch are some of the most common fish that we have right here at home. You’re gonna hear about what he still has at check off his list and how he’s gonna get to 500 and what his backup plans are and how the show circuit went this way. Plus, you’re gonna hear what it’s like to live in a van during the show season. He’s kind of doing this cool thing for a while now, half van while on the show season. And, and we hear this story about a little cold below zero night out there. So this is a fun one. Great to catch up with Jeff, as always. Here we go. Jeff Currier from jeffcurrier.com. Dave (1m 30s): How you doing, Jeff? Jeff (1m 31s): I’m doing good, Dave. Nice to hear you voice again. Yeah. Dave (1m 33s): Yeah. It’s been, it’s been a little while. I mean, I know I’ve seen you out there. I, I feel like I follow you out there because you’re kind of doing the show circuit and everything, but it’s been on the podcast episode 65, or, let’s see. No, did we do one before? I might be, did we have another one in between there? Jeff (1m 48s): No, no. I think it’s been a couple years. I think I’ve just done that one with you. Dave (1m 52s): Yeah, just the one. So it’s been, yeah. More than a couple years then we’ve been, we’re looking at, yeah. I mean, it’s been over a few years. So we’re, you know, obviously we’re pumping out the, the numbers at the, at the time I think you were at about 400 species caught on the fly. Is that, has that number changed a little bit since then? Yeah, Jeff (2m 8s): We’re at four 80 now. Dave (2m 10s): So you’re still working towards that big 500 mark. Jeff (2m 13s): Yeah, and I, I probably said last time that I didn’t know if it would be feasible, but yeah, it’s definitely feasible. It probably happened in the next couple years. Dave (2m 21s): Okay. So you got, you got your species on the, do you have a, a plan of, of which, are they gonna be the next 20? I Jeff (2m 27s): Really don’t, but I, that is my priority to do that. I’ve been so busy the last year that I keep saying I’m gonna do it and I haven’t. But you know, I’m headed to the Seychelles tomorrow and I’ve been there, I’ve been there five times, so I’ve caught most of the species I’m likely to run into. But I do have, I do have a couple, there’s the red tooth trigger fish that I’ll hopefully catch on this trip. He kind of hangs out there in the schools with milk fish. You know why everybody’s fishing? The milk fish, if I see the, the old red tooth, I’ll be trying to catch one really bad. Not a big glamorous fish, but a beautiful fish with a red teeth. Oh wow. So it’s kind of cool looking. Some people call it the vampire trigger. In fact, that’s what most of the guides call it. Dave (3m 7s): Gotcha. And is that a fairly challenging fish to find and, and hook? Jeff (3m 12s): Well, last time I was milk fishing was at Providence in 2022 and we saw a few of the Fang triggers, but we didn’t hit ’em too hard until like the last day. And then of course we thought it was gonna be easy and we didn’t, we didn’t catch one, so who knows. Yeah, Dave (3m 27s): Right. I circle back around with, you know, the last couple years. Have you been, it sounds like you’ve been real busy. What has been your, I guess it’s show season. What, what’s, has your year changed now that you’re up here in Wisconsin? Right, Jeff (3m 37s): Yeah, still in Wisconsin, you know, got here in late 2 21, early 2 22. And I know we love it here, so we’re gonna stay here. As far as my life changing it really, it really hasn’t I, my big difference, instead of flying out of Jackson Hole right. Oak Falls, I fly out of Duluth, but I go to all the same places and been really busy doing the same thing. It’s been great. Dave (3m 60s): Nice. Where have been some of the, like this last couple years, where have you been hitting or any favorite places you’ve new places you’ve gone to? Jeff (4m 7s): Yeah, I’ve had a, a couple, well, just last year I had two really new places. So I went to Columbia and I had never been to Columbia. I’ve definitely fished both sides of it. You know, I’ve fished Ecuador and the Galapagos and fished, you know, that southern part of Panama. But I had never set foot in Columbia. So I went to the Darien Gap and fished Darien Lodge. That was back in May. And that was, that was a phenomenal, phenomenal trip. It blew me away actually. And in the fall, I guess late September, early October, I went over and fished Cape York, the west side of Cape York with Aussie fly Fishers, Josh Hutchins. And that was a great trip. And I did, I fished a few new places in the Amazon last couple years. Jeff (4m 49s): I was down at Chingu with the Untamed guys, which is fishing, the, the Pi, the big PIs. Oh, right. Which, which wasn’t a new fish for me, but it was a new place to fish for ’em. And man, that was a fabulous trip. I was there in November and early December. Yeah. Dave (5m 4s): Are those the vampire fish? That’s Jeff (5m 6s): Right. Right. Dave (5m 7s): God. And you guys had some action out there. Jeff (5m 9s): Yeah, it was fabulous. We, we went after the end of his season because, you know, we were kind of doing some, I dunno, playing around research you could say. So it was the beginning of the rainy season, but Rodrigo s he’s one of the, you know, the founders of Untamed, he kind of thought that, you know, when the high water starts, when the big rain start, that the power run might get better than it actually is during the season. And he was right because it, it literally was right to the minute we, it started raining when we got there to the point where we were a little bit worried that the river is starting to blow out and we might be screwed. But it stayed just perfect. It was, you know, it never completely blew out. Just got slightly off color and the power were, were on fire. Jeff (5m 51s): Wow. I mean, they usually get, you know, maybe a half dozen fish a day, you know, with good anglers. And I, I mean, we were probably getting 10 fish a day, maybe even more than that some days. It was, it was phenomenal with other, other nice fish mixed in there as well. Dave (6m 5s): Gotcha. That is really cool. What has been, so you’re, yeah, I mean you’ve got the four 80 now, getting close to, you know, 500. Take us back real quick. You know, for those that didn’t hear the first, you know, episode or the last episode we did, when did you start thinking about getting, you know, some species, these numbers and I think, you know, up there a lot more than many people in the world, most in the world. When did that start? Jeff (6m 26s): Yeah, it wasn’t really me. It was, I’ve always been catching cool fish my whole life. ’cause I, I’m fascinated with, with fish, you know, I studied at Theology for a while in college and I just think, you know, every fish has its place and they, they’re worth taking a good look at. And when I was doing a lot of travel just starting out, you know, in my early twenties I was working at the, the Jack Dennis fly shop in Jackson Hole. And my, it was my customers that were like, you know, they’d come back, you know, come in the store to hear about, you know, whatever trip I was just on. And I’d be like, just, you know, foaming at the mouth talking about all these cool fish I caught. And they would be like, have you ever kept track of the amount of different species you’ve caught in a fly rod? And at first I was like, oh, you know, whatever this, you know, probably a lot. Jeff (7m 8s): I probably had, you know, 60 or 70. And they’re like, that’s amazing. And it went on for a couple years. And then one day it was a really slow day in the shop, probably a January day sitting in a fly shop in Wyoming. And me and my boys were kicking around and I said, let’s start our species list. And you know, they were done in about 10 minutes and mine just kept going for like weeks and weeks and weeks. And, and then I was going back to old photos and, and finding Phish I hadn’t recorded. And you know, to be honest with you, Dave, it probably took like two years of, you know, keeping that list really organized before I felt like, wow, I think I have everything I’ve gotten now. And I was like, wow, this is well over 200. Jeff (7m 50s): Then I started, you know, paying attention. Dave (7m 53s): Now as you get to the, we’ve talked about this a little before, but as you get to the close to 500 right, it’s not getting easier. Do are all the big species that people think of. I mean those have all been, you’ve caught those, what, what’s it like when you’re at getting close to 500 versus, say when you’re at 200? Jeff (8m 8s): It’s difficult to add fish now. So last year I probably, you know, even though I went to Columbia for the first time, went to that north part of Australia for the first time, I still think my season overall last year was maybe 10 species. And that’s good just ’cause I went to those oddball places this year. I do have one already this year. ’cause I started the year in Gaon and I’ve been to Gaon before, so it wasn’t like, it was easy to add species, but I added the brown snapper, which is pretty much only found in that western part of Africa there in the, in the estuaries. So that was cool. And it’s important to me to make sure that every year I get at least one species. Jeff (8m 50s): Now I haven’t even come close to only getting one, but I think in this next 10 years it’s gonna get that way. I just feel like if, if I can’t add a species one of these years that Dave (9m 1s): Yeah, that’s it. Jeff (9m 2s): That the, the fun is drying up. So I actually, you mentioned, you said, so I’m sure you’ve caught all, you know, the easy basic fish around the world. And I have caught 90, probably 99%. But I do keep a few in my back pocket just in case. I have one of these years where it’s come November, I didn’t add a new species. Oh, right. So for example, I’ve never caught a Kobe on fly. Oh yeah. And that’s a pretty easy one to get if you just go to the right place and targeted the right time of year. And I’ve almost like purposely not caught a co, in fact, an example that would be when I was in Australia, this, this fall, I was with my wife and we saw some coia and she was like, oh, you haven’t got a coia, you need to get one. Jeff (9m 43s): I’m like, no, why don’t you get it? So funny things like that. Another one would be like a white crop got plenty of black croppy, but a lot of people don’t realize there’s different species of croppy. But the white croppy is found more down in the south and he is very common. I just, you know, I just haven’t caught one yet. Dave (9m 59s): Right, right. That’s so you, yeah, you wanna make sure, even if you don’t add a ton of species each year, at least you’re getting one new one each year. Jeff (10m 5s): Yeah. I’m trying to be real careful about that. Dave (10m 7s): Okay. This is great. So yeah, so that’s the update on the species list. Let’s talk just quickly on the show season. I’m not sure where that’s at. I guess it’s, is it over now that we’re, we’re kind of in, well, when this goes live it’ll be in April, definitely be over. But are you wrap, have you wrapped things up now? Yeah, Jeff (10m 22s): So I did almost all the big, the fly fishing shows this year. I finished up in Denver, would’ve been two weekends ago. And this week I’ll be heading to Seychelles hosting for Yellow Dog. I’ll actually be over there almost the rest of the month. I don’t get back to the 28th of March, but, so my big show season’s done, but my speaking engagements are not done. Those go throughout the year. And I will have a pretty busy April when I come back. I’ve got a little tour through Arizona, which is great. I’m hitting all the clubs down there. I say great because number one it’s Arizona and getting outta Wisconsin in April’s not a bad thing. And also I get to do some carp fishing. I have not grass carp fished in probably two years. Jeff (11m 3s): So that’ll be my focus on this speaking tour. And then I go back to Oregon towards the end of April to to speak at Finn and Firefly Shop, do a full day seminar. And that’s good too. ’cause then I get to do some fishing as well. I fish with those guys when I’m out there. Probably go catch a few bull trout and who knows, whatever they put me on, I’ll have a good time. Right, Dave (11m 22s): Right. Nice. So yeah. So you do some of those, these are more like where you’re doing presentations. What, what does that, does that look like similar to what you would do at a, at a show at the fly fishing shows? Jeff (11m 32s): Yeah. So the fly fishing shows you, you know, you gotta be in and outta your room within an hour. So I try to limit my shows to 35 to 40 minutes so you get time for questions. But when I do, you know, speak at a club, you know, they usually want, you know, probably a 45 to 50 minute presentation and then you got a half hour to do questions answered and stuff. So that’s kind of fun. Usually it’s a whole event night. So a lot of speakers will go in and they’ll tie flies and mingle with the people and then have dinner and do their presentation. I, I’m not much of a fly tire. Nobody wants to see Jeff Kerr. Right. Tie, fly promise you that. So I’ll go in, I’ll do art. So whenever I do a speaking engagement for a club, I donate a cliff fly box with my art on it, and I’ll do the art at the club while people watch any fish they want. Jeff (12m 17s): And then they’ll raffle it off that night. So, oh, cool. You know, people gotta pay me to come speak. So that offsets their expenses a little bit. ’cause you know, sometimes they’ll raffle off those boxes for a couple hundred bucks. Right, Dave (12m 27s): Right. That’s cool. Yeah. I forgot. Yeah, you definitely, your art, is that something that you’ve been doing that a while, right? Is are you taking, what does your day look like with the art? Is that something that’s more on the side? Are you doing a lot, a lot more of that? Jeff (12m 39s): It’s on the side when, when I’m at the shows, people see me doing it all day long. ’cause that is kind of my gimmick. People can bring their backpack or fly box or whatever they have, and I’ll draw on it within, you know, 30 minutes to 45 minutes, any fish they want. And I try to do it without looking up any fish. Hmm. And most people can’t fool me. Once in a while, somebody will throw something crazy at me. But, you know, if, if you’ve caught most of ’em and you look, look at ’em and have ’em in your hands, usually you can remember enough to, to do a good Dave (13m 7s): Oh, that’s cool. So you literally, yeah, somebody will come up and say, you know, draw me a whatever, you know, skipjack tuna or something like that. Exactly. And you can draw it just from, just from memory. Jeff (13m 15s): Whip it out. Yep. Dave (13m 16s): That’s amazing. Once Jeff (13m 17s): While I’ll screw up a little bit, but if I screw up and I don’t notice it till the end, they’ll never notice it. Dave (13m 21s): That’s right. Well, and we remind us again on that. When did your art, you know this, well, it’s not a hobby, but when did that start? Jeff (13m 28s): Yeah, so I mean, I was always an artist as a kid, but I never thought about being an artist. But when I did my saltwater book, which would’ve been about the mid nineties, I illustrated it myself. And when it went to the publishing got accepted, which, you know, I was kinda surprised, I knew how hard it was. They said, let’s do all these illustrations you did in black and white in color, and that may entail having to hire somebody. We understand that, but whatever you gotta do. And I’m like, hiring’s not an option. So I taught myself how to do watercolor and yeah, so I do watercolor with pen and ink over the top, you know, commissions for people. And that’s how I illustrated my saltwater book and my warm water book. Jeff (14m 9s): And then, you know, and that gets expensive. So I don’t know, about 15, 20 years ago, one of my boys in the shop, you know, I managed that shop in, in Jackson for many years, asked if I could draw with a Sharpie on his fly box. And I said, yeah, what do you want? He said he wanted a muskie. So he drew a muskie on there in about 20 minutes and it looked pretty cool. And I said, you know what, now I got an art that I can offer to people that don’t have a ton of money to do a commission artwork. So like on those fly box, you bring me your own fly box, ask me to do a branch out, I’m just gonna charge you 50 bucks. Oh wow. You know, so it’s affordable art for everybody. It’s kind of cool. Dave (14m 45s): Yeah, that’s cool. Yeah. And we had glad you mentioned the shop we had Jack Dennis, he came back on recently too recently, and we had a good chat with Jack. It’s always, always fun to catch up on things. He’s Yeah. You guys, I mean, you’ve been there right since the, the beginning. You were there and you told that story last time about working with Jack, but do you keep up with him at all? Do you see what he’s up to? Jeff (15m 4s): We talk on the phone maybe once a year. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t, I don’t hear from him that much. Dave (15m 9s): Yeah, he’s, he’s a little bit older. Well, he’s quite a bit older than you. What, what’s the age difference? Jeff (15m 14s): He’s quite a bit older, so I’m 59. I turned 60 this year and Jack has gotta be 74 to 77, somewhere in there. That’s Dave (15m 23s): Right. Cool. And, and that was back to the Jack Dennis, I guess the Jack Dennis outdoor store. Right. You managed that store for a number of years. Jeff (15m 30s): Yep. I was in the shop for 23 years and I managed it the last 20 that I was there. Dave (15m 34s): And you probably see, do you see a ton of people out there that were, that came through your shop as guides and or just worked there? Is, is there a lot of people you see out there still in the industry? Jeff (15m 43s): Oh, it’s unbelievable. Yeah. So when you’re in a place that long, and that was a big shop, so our staff every summer would be seven, seven to eight guys in the shop. And then we always had a staff of a dozen to 18 guides. So you figure that 23 years I had at least a hundred different employees. So yeah, it’s amazing. Like when I’m doing the show circuit, for instance, when we went down to the Atlanta show, one of my old employees, Greg Allen, who’s, you know, he’s into, you know, he has a construction business now and he’s in his mid forties. But he worked for me when he was in his late teens. I mean, we visited them and went fishing for a few days before the Atlanta show. Then during the Atlanta show, a lot of my help over the years always came from the south. Jeff (16m 24s): So at least 20 different people came by to say hi. That worked in the shop at one time. And then after we went down and fished with some more of them down in Florida that were from down in Florida here. So yeah, it’s, it’s been a great niche having all these people around the country to still be friends with. It’s really cool. Dave (16m 41s): Let on de Mark Lodge give you the Montana fly fishing experience you deserve. The gin clear waters of the Missouri River offer a world-class experience with one of the finest rainbow trout and brown trout fisheries in the world. Whether you’re a seasoned angler or new to the sport, their family of guides will tailor a trip just for you. You can head over to on demark lodge.com to fish one of the great trout streams in the country. Well let, let’s you know, kind of review some of the places you’ve been to, you know, and talk about that a little bit. Maybe some stories are you told a story, I can’t remember. I think it was on that Yeah, the first episode where you got, you know, ripped out of the, the van. I think you, I can’t remember where you were exactly, but some guy at Knife point, right. Dave (17m 23s): You had this crazy story. Have you had any other stories, you know, crazy or is that still the craziest story you’ve had out there traveling? Jeff (17m 30s): That’s probably the only like, you know, potentially near death story other than, you know, that was in Malawi, by the way. Yeah. When Granny and I were hitchhiking across Africa. Yeah. That was bad. The only other one I probably told then too was the tiger that was in India back in 2008. Yeah. Dave (17m 47s): I, I don’t remember the Tiger one. Remind us again on that one. What, what was that? Jeff (17m 50s): I was fishing with Misty Dillon. It was, it was my second trip to India and it was 2008 and we were on the Rogan ga, which is on the border of Corbett’s Tiger National Park there. Oh. And you know, we weren’t in it though. We were about 50 miles out. It’s a long story. I mean, when I, when I really tell that story when I’m drinking beers like Dave (18m 11s): An Jeff (18m 11s): Hour. Yeah. But the, the short version is I was, you know, fishing on my own. I actually had one of Misty’s little guides, but he was way back hanging out with his buddy. So I was quite a ways ahead in the jungle and I felt that something was stalking me. I kind of had that sixth sense. And the short version is I finally came face to face with a Bengal tiger. Huh. And he was perched on a rock above hiding in the bushes. And I was about to walk right under him, so Dave (18m 39s): Oh, right. Jeff (18m 39s): It was a very good chance that he was going to pounce on me and I lucked out. I spotted him in time and had a steering contest with him. And you know, that’s the one thing you do with cats if you can keep an eye on ’em. And they usually don’t have the, the courage to make the move. Dave (18m 53s): Oh, is that what that, so that’s it. Keep, keep eye contact. Jeff (18m 57s): Yes. And I was lucky that my, you know, my guide and his friend came, came up behind me about within three or four minutes and Tiger stood up and headed back in. Wow. Yeah, it’s pretty wild. Dave (19m 9s): A Bengal tiger. So a giant, a big animal. Jeff (19m 11s): Yeah. It was a giant, I mean, we, we looked at our mountain lions in this country as big cats. This thing is four times the size. Oh Dave (19m 18s): God, that’s so good. I mean, well, it’s crazy. It was insane. Yeah. I, and I’ve, I’ve had actually a similar letter. I’m not sure if I’ve told this story, but I had a, it’s interesting ’cause the, the looking right, they always say, you know, you keep eye contact. But I ran into a cougar out, you know, on a, on a small stream, basically hiking in the woods and same thing went around the corner and it was like 50 feet down the road. And I just looked up, I was like, oh, wow, there’s a adult cougar looking at me. You know, like within, you know, it could just pounce on me easily. But, but yeah, I just kept staring at it. Right. I didn’t take my eyes off and I slowly backed away and, and then kind of got away. So Yeah, those moments are scary, aren’t they? That you, you get there and you realize like, hey, we’re just in the animal world. Right. We, we don’t have much of a chance. Jeff (19m 58s): Yeah. I mean, I can’t even describe how scared I was. It was, you know, it wasn’t a matter of just being frozen. My vocal chords actually were paralyzed because the first thing I wanted to do is scream to get, get the attention of my, you know, my guides that were Yeah. At that time they might’ve been a quarter mile behind me or whatever and there was nothing in the tank. Oh Dave (20m 18s): Wow. Couldn’t even scream. Jeff (20m 20s): I was trying to scream and nothing came out. Oh. And yeah, it was wild because when those guys finally caught up to me, you know, and it probably was only two minutes, it, then I just started screaming. Like it just came out and I wasn’t screaming anymore. It was like, it saved, saved it up. It was a close call that Tiger actually went on to take out some people in the next six months. It was, you know, according to Misty, who was guiding in that area that, that tiger took out a few people and they finally had to take out the tiger. Oh wow. And unfortunately it, it had two cubs. Geez. And it was damaged. It had, it had like porcupine quills in its paws and which was severely affected. Jeff (20m 60s): So the theory is that it just couldn’t hunt anymore. So it was looking for something really stupid like the human. And I could have been that one. And unfortunately a few other locals ended up being that one. So Damn. I was really lucky. Yeah. I was really, really lucky. Dave (21m 13s): That’s nuts. Have you had any close call, I’m sure you’ve been on lots of like, not just planes, but you know, bush planes, stuff like that. Have you been any, anything, you know, where you came close to or felt that you were scared about crashing in one of those? Jeff (21m 28s): The only time I felt like I was gonna crash was on a helicopter trip down in New Zealand. And it’s funny because we were just, you were just asking about Jack Dennis. Yeah, I was with Jack. Oh wow. And with a couple of his very high paying customers, which were customers slash friends. And yeah, we, we came close to getting the, the propellers stuck in the, some of those huge wires that they got these electric wires that go from mountain to mountain and the choppers. That’s why they never like to fly in bad weather because if, you know, they’re doing it most of their navigation by site. And yeah, that was a close call, so, geez. Yeah, it’s, I don’t know. Yeah, if you, if you fish and travel and do crazy things ’cause you thrive on it, you’re gonna run into some dangerous situations time to time. Dave (22m 14s): Yeah. That’s part of it. Have you, you know, the travel stuff, are you still fully stoked on that? Is, are you still enjoying all the travel as you get older and, you know, kind of all that? Jeff (22m 23s): Yeah, I, you know, I don’t think that I’ll hitchhike across Africa ever again, that type of caliber stuff. And I don’t think I’ll ride the buses and trains through India ever again or, you know, Pakistan or something like that. But I still love the travel. I still love traveling with my wife, but she wants it to be a little more organized than it used to be. We may, we may still wing it, but she’ll have a, she’ll have an idea where we’re gonna be staying that night. And you know, if I’m gonna be winging it with guides, I’m gonna check their motor a little more carefully than I used to. I know. Little things like that. You just get older and you get wiser. Dave (22m 58s): Right. You do. It’s interesting, I was at a show and I ran into kind of a survival, I’m, I can’t remember his name, we’re actually gonna have him on the podcast ’cause he was amazing. We sat there, he was over in the boats. There was a boat section and I was over there. He was showing me how to start a fire and the essentials you needed. It was like super awesome stuff. So super. Yeah. I mean that’s part of it, right? Do you have all that safety stuff? Are you ready to roll if something happens? You’re stuck out there for, you know, a few days or something like that? Jeff (23m 25s): Probably not as equipped as the guy you’re talking about. Yeah. I still wing it there a little bit. I mean, if I’m in cold environment, then I’m gonna be able to make a fire. Somehow I’m gonna have four lighters. But when I’m in the tropics, I’m probably a little careless still. Dave (23m 39s): Yeah, no, I’ll You’ll have to, I’ll I’ll show you, get you a link to this episode when it comes out. ’cause it’s gonna be good. He is, he’s got these, how I’ve drawn a blank on his name, but it’s just, even the fire stuff is so simple. He was talking about where you can get dry, you know, even in the Pacific Northwest where it’s super wet, you know? Yeah. Going under the tree and getting the bark right. There’s these places where you can get super dry stuff and start a huge fire and everything. But, so anyways, that’s all that, the safety stuff, which is very important. I wanted to get into today, you know, you’ve traveled, I think all over the world. I was hoping we could talk a little high level on places you’ve been to and maybe we could break it up by continents. This might be, you know, maybe a challenge, but could we pick some favorite places as we look at maybe all the continents? Have you been to all, have you fished all continents? Jeff (24m 19s): I have not fished Antarctica, but yeah, I’ve, yeah. Fished all, all the regular. Dave (24m 23s): Are there, is there some fish, is that a place you could still, is that you, you find on your, on your species list there? Jeff (24m 29s): I think there’s an Antarctic cod, which is, you know, a native species found only down in Antarctica. I’m not a hundred percent sure on that, but I’m, I’m pretty sure that they, they ice fish farm. But you’re drilling through like, you know, 40 feet of ice. Dave (24m 42s): Oh right. You’re not real. Well I guess you could still be fly fish, right? Drill through the ice and throw your fly Jeff (24m 46s): Around. Well, if it keeps melting, we might be able to fish for him with a fly, you know? I know. It’s kinda scary. Dave (24m 51s): It is scary. Yeah, definitely. So, okay, so no Antarctic, but the other six you have, maybe let, let’s go to the where we are home. So North, north America, I mean obviously there’s, you know, hundreds of species, whatever the numbers are, but what is one you really love? I know smallmouth bass is one of your favorites. Other than smallmouth bass, what would be another top species that you’ve, you’ve caught in on your list and then what number if you, do you remember the numbers of all of ’em? Well, Jeff (25m 15s): You’re right. Smallies are my favorite. That’s why I’m so happy to be, you know, up in northern Wisconsin. ’cause that’s what I grew up on. But as far as, you know, other North American favorites, I’ll give you three. Okay. So obviously, I mean, I love trout fishing. You know, I, I haven’t done a lot the last couple years, you know, ’cause I did it for, that was in my backyard for 34 years. So it’s, you know, it’s nice to be able to look out my window and go smalley fishing or muskie fishing or pike fishing or wildlife fishing. And I love that when I moved to Wisconsin, first thing outta people’s mouth, like, oh, you’re going for the muskies. But I really wasn’t, you know, I was actually coming back for, you know, smallies and for the variety. Jeff (25m 55s): But I have gotten pretty attached to the musky fishing in the fall here. It’s, it’s pretty cool. And I guess what I liked about it’s is it’s, it’s a really good learning curve. Like my first year was 2022, so that was my first fall. I think I caught four. Oh wow. And that was kind of, you know, I wasn’t really fishing hard for him. I might’ve picked him up while I was pike fishing. So, but that was cool. It got my interest. And then 2 23, I think I caught nine and I started focusing on it a little bit. And then 2 24 I caught over 20. Wow. So that’s been really fun. And you know, so there was some learning involved and I’ve, and I’ve got pretty good at it. I feel, I feel like 20 fish is pretty awesome and you know, your third year of fishing to ’em and I’m not really getting taught. Jeff (26m 39s): I mean, in the past I did do some guide trips with the famous Muskie guy, bill Sheer over in the Oh yeah. Recent part of the state. He’s a good friend of mine and he taught me a lot back in the day when I was lucky to be on guide trips with him. But, you know, I’ve been kind of working it over with a, with a buddy of mine here and just, it’s been great and now I’m into it. Yeah. So I look forward to next year. Dave (26m 59s): Do you think the Muskie is the, you know, obviously it’s a hard fish to catch out of everything you’ve caught, you know, the nor I guess the normal fish. Is it, is it the hardest one or are there things harder to catch than the muskie? Jeff (27m 9s): There’s definitely ones that are probably harder. I, I actually think that it, it’s pretty easy now that I’m here, I just keep my expectations in line. You go muskie fishing, you might get one, one or two in a day. If you’re thinking you’re gonna go out and pulver Verizon, then you’re gonna hate the sport and you’re done. Dave (27m 23s): Yeah. So it is kinda like, like a steelhead trip or something like that, or Atlantic season. Yes. Jeff (27m 27s): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you wanna pick something hard, go for grass carp. Dave (27m 32s): Oh, grass carp. Yeah. Jeff (27m 33s): Yeah. If you don’t know how to, I mean, they’re not that hard for me, but I’ve been fishing ’em 25 years when they, when I started chasing those guys, they kicked my ass. I mean they, geez, they were frustrating. Right. Dave (27m 44s): Is that on your, one of your top North American species? Jeff (27m 47s): He is one of my favorites. I absolutely love grass carpet. I’m so excited to be, it’s funny, I’m leaving to the Seychelles tomorrow, but I’m really excited for when I come home. ’cause I’m going down to Arizona to work and I, the opportunity to grass our fish. Dave (27m 59s): That’s amazing. That’s what I love about it. I love about, you know, the, the species stuff because I mean, you’re traveling all over the world and stuff and you can especially, you know, if you got, you have the funds and stuff, but I mean, in North America, in the US I mean we have tons of species. Right. Including the carp, which right here in your backyard are amazing. Yeah. Jeff (28m 15s): I’d say one of the funnest things I’ve been doing since I got to Wisconsin in the summer, being in Wisconsin is nipping up the Red Horse suckers. Oh, okay. So, you know, north America has numerous suckers species. I don’t know how many we have. I’ll make a guess. We’ve got 20 or something. And you know, it’s not a regular fish that you catch on fly rod, but I think anybody that trout fishes a lot has picked up a sucker or two in their day, you know, legitimately hooked in the mouth by accident. Dave (28m 44s): But suckers do eat, right. Suckers have to eat. So they, they will take dry fly, even dry flies. Right. At times. Jeff (28m 49s): I don’t think I’ve ever caught one a dry fly, but I’ve definitely site nit suckers. And it’s a process. I think the, you know, I was down in Arizona, you, I, I go to Arizona a lot to speak. And last time I was down there I wanted to catch the serranos, what do they call it? Dave (29m 4s): Oh yeah, the Sonora. The Sonora sucker. Jeff (29m 6s): The Sonora sucker. There you go. Yeah. You know, beautiful looking sucker down there. And then while I was catching, I finally got him, it took two trips where I finally got ’em. Well then there’s the desert sucker. I saw this weird sucker. I’m like, Mike, get over here. What is that thing? He goes, oh, that’s the desert sucker. He goes, I’ve caught a few, but they’re even harder. And I’m like, okay, then we’re not going anywhere. And two days later I ended up catching two of the desert suckers. But we have right here, we got the red horse suckers and there’s six different species of red horse sucker Oh wow. Here in northern Wisconsin. And so far, I got the river, I got the gold. And I think the other one is the, it might be the silver or something like that. But I mean, it has been a job trying to catch these guys. Jeff (29m 49s): But I’ve got maybe five now. Nice. And they’re big. Some of ’em are huge. If you go to my blog and you know, Google up Courier, red Horse sucker, you’ll see, you know, a couple of ones I’ve got. Okay. And they’re just, yeah. Awesome fish. Awesome. Dave (30m 1s): And if you, you said, so do you want keep, I guess that could be another, if you would say the North America, do you have another favorite North American species you want to add to that list? Jeff (30m 9s): Hmm. Yeah. Well I would definitely say the Red Horse has become one of my favorites. Dave (30m 12s): Perfect. I love that. And that’s one nobody has heard of or not, not as many people have heard of. So that’s good. All right. Let, let’s zip around. This will be fun to kind of go around and see, let’s go to South America. What is this destination South America do you think the most? Or where have you gone to most? Have you been down there quite a bit? Jeff (30m 27s): Well, yeah, I’ve been there a bunch. I’ve been to the Amazon maybe 15 times. And most of my trips have been to the Brazilian Amazon. But you know, that’s a massive country. So you got Minal, which is right in the center and that’s where all, you know, Brazil jungle trips start or you know, whatever you wanna call. Amazon trips start. And most people, Americans go north because of the season. So we want to go get out of the cold. So we go down there and you know, December, you know, November, December, January, February. And the timing for those trips is to, you have to go north of Manaus because you’re avoiding the rainy season. And south of Manaus during our winter months is the rainy season. Jeff (31m 8s): So it’s pretty much Unfishable for example, you know, I was down there with the Untamed guys, Rodrigo back in, in November. And that was the beginning of rainy season. And we just made it like, you know, we had great fishing because of the rainy season was starting and the Payara were running. But if we went in there two weeks later, I think the river would’ve been too blown out to fish. Yeah. So, you know, I love going to Brazil and fishing. That part of the Amazon I really enjoyed. Probably my favorite place was going to Chingu and fishing those big pe. So I love peacock bass, but I really love those PEs. They’re an awesome fish. Dave (31m 44s): And those are the vampire fish that what, what is the, what’s so cool about, I mean they obviously they look amazing, right? Why is that one of those fish to go for? Jeff (31m 51s): They’re a little harder to catch than other stuff. So, you know, they’d be more like, you know, the steelhead of the Amazon, like you, there’s a lot of ways that they feed. Like some days they’ll come up and hammer a popper. Not often, but they will. Very hard to hook though, by the way, in a popper because they got those giant teeth. And when they tend to hit a popper, they’ll, they’ll push it away most of the time. But you can catch ’em. And sometimes it’s really weird because they’ll slu shut their mouth and your popper won’t even be like hooked into the jaw itself. But it’ll be hooked around one of those big teeth. And because when they open their mouth, those teeth still barely clear the top jaw. Hmm. Because those teeth come out of the bottom. Your, your hook will be just wrapped around, just hooked around the tooth. Jeff (32m 33s): Oh right. And you still land the fish pretty amazing. That Dave (32m 36s): Is amazing. Right. Jeff (32m 38s): And then there’s other times where they’re not looking up at all and you have to go deep for ’em. So like this last trip we did a lot of stuff with like 300 grain, you know, jungle tapers, you know, the scientific angular makes those custom tips. And so you’re getting it down deep, you know, 15, 20 feet and then swinging your fly. So detecting a strike like that can be really tough for some people. I mean, it was tough for me until you get a grip on it the second day. And I don’t know, you know, I love the challenge. I don’t want my fishing to be easy. It’s, you know, it’s a game we play. If it’s, if it’s an easy game you get bored. So. Right. You know, I’m kind of passionate about those guys. And then just being in the Amazon in general, you know, this trip we didn’t see a lot of wildlife ’cause I think I was looking in the water too much. Jeff (33m 20s): But you know, there’s tapers, there’s jaguars, there’s various different species of monkeys. And the bird life is unbelievable. I’m a little bit of a bird nerd a lot. Oh nice. People don’t know that about me. But yeah, I don’t try to identify what species is, but I can see a cool bird. It just appreciate how cool it is. Dave (33m 36s): No, I love it. Yeah. You don’t get down to like the scientific names of birds, but just, just seeing ’em out there and seeing new birds is cool. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Yeah, I, I love birds too as well. This is good. Okay, so we got, so we got South America, we got the payara, we got North America. I guess we’ll just put, if we had to say one small mouth bass, right? We kind of throw that on there. Yeah. What, what about let’s move across over, let’s go up to Europe. Have you done a lot in Europe? Jeff (33m 58s): I’ve done a lot in Europe. I’ve been very fortunate ’cause I fished for team USA fly fishing team. Both the men’s and then long after I retired in 2004, all of a sudden in maybe about 2020 or 18 or whatever, yeah, I would’ve been for people over 50. So actually it would’ve been probably 2016 when I was over 50, got the call. And so I gotta go back and fish all the best of Europe again. So I probably fished in Europe 20 times in some of the best waters. And I particularly like, first of all, European grayling, they’re different than the, the Arctic Grayling. They’re a little smaller, maybe a little more colorful and way harder to catch. You know, they, they take dries but they’re really hard to hook ’cause they’re, they’re smaller and, but the best way to catch ’em is, is nipping and which is not something I’m one of my favorite things to do. Jeff (34m 46s): But when it comes to European grayling, I’ll buckle down and do a little euro nim thing like, like everybody does. Dave (34m 52s): Okay. So grayling cool. What about, what about as you pop down to, well you’ve done a lot in Africa. What if you had to pick one species there, what would you be looking at? Jeff (35m 1s): Boy, I think everybody would expect me to say tiger fish. But I’m pretty passionate about Nile perch. Dave (35m 6s): Okay. Nile perch. Yeah. Jeff (35m 8s): And the Niles are much harder to find because unfortunately they’re one of the giant freshwater fish and they, they get netted and cotton eaten just about everywhere they existed. So there’s not many good places left. I used to fish in Egypt back in the, about 2006, 2007, 2010. I think I made four trips over there and it was phenomenal my first few trips. And that place literally got fished out in during the time that I was fishing over there. You could still find, you know, some here and there. But the big ones like we caught in my first trips on flies, those guys are gone. But they’re still good Nile perch fishing, you know, I got to go over to Cameroon and fish with the African waters guys, which are great friends of mine. Jeff (35m 49s): That’s who I was with in Gabon back in January. And they do have some rivers that have great Nile perch fishing still. And it’s pretty cool because, you know, in Egypt we’re a fishing lake Nassar, which is a huge, basically a giant reservoir formed by, you know, a dam on the Nile River and Cameroon, you’re fishing free flowing rivers and walking rocks and sight fishing and then doing the night thing with big streamers. It’s, it’s pretty special. I like that fish. Yeah. You know, when you’re fishing at night in Cameroon, it’s again, it’s about your surroundings. I mean it’s, it’s kind of creepy dark and you know, there’s hippos in the water that you hear ’em grunting, you know, they’re near you. It’s got, which is a dangerous animal. Jeff (36m 30s): You got the crocodiles, you got the, the crazy birds chirping at night. It’s, it’s special. Wow. It’s special. Dave (36m 36s): Yeah. That is cool. So Cameroon, that that is a place, so if you had to say yeah, one place you would go back to that sounds like that would be one of those places. Jeff (36m 43s): It would definitely be one of ’em. I’d go back to everywhere I’ve been in Africa. You would? Yeah, it’s Africa’s my favorite continent and you know, I’ve spent a lot of time in Tanzania doing the, the Tanzania Tigers. When my wife and I hitchhiked across Africa, we went to a variety of countries. I guess the one you talked about when we got almost got ripped out of the van in Malawi. I don’t need to head back to Malawi ’cause the fishing wasn’t that good either. Dave (37m 7s): Okay. It, where is Malawi? What, what country? Where is that? Jeff (37m 10s): If you Google up Lake Malawi, you’ll come up with this amazing lake that’s full of those, those pretty cool sick lids. But it’s nestled between Zambia, Tanzania, Mozambique, probably, oh, down south. Maybe even another country or two. Yeah, it’s in the south part South Africa. I got lot of friends there. I’ll go down there and yellow fish with those guys and just have a great time. Luc Sudo would be, you know, it’s one of those enclave countries inside South Africa that’s a great place to trout fish and fish for yellow fish. Especially the small mouth yellow fish. Okay. I mean I love it all. Yeah, Dave (37m 42s): You do. No, this is good. So let, let’s wrap this, this list up here real quick. We got, we got a couple left. Yeah. I mean Asia and Australia. What, what about Asia? What’s your favorite there? Jeff (37m 51s): Definitely Golden Mossier hands down. You know, they got, they got a few other species of Mossier there as well. I guess my other favorite would be the Chocolate Mossier. So I’ve fished in pretty extensively in India, a little bit in Nepal, but pretty extensively in India. And then I think maybe my last two times I was in the Himalaya was to Bhutan and I was there in 2014 with a World Wildlife Fund project with one of my good buddies, Mike Dawes. And that was really just trying to find out if the gold masier still existed there. And yeah, we found it. It was pretty incredible fishing. And then I was back there last year, so Bryant Dunn Himalayan fly fishing company have teamed up with us at Yellow Dog and we went over and did a film with Chris Patterson and Jim Glu and Bryant. Jeff (38m 40s): And it was an incredible trip. We did a, you know, 12 day float trip and the fish was still there. The Golden Mossier fishing was excellent because of the size fish we caught. We didn’t actually catch a ton of golden mass here. We got some really big ones. I think most people saw the video that we did there last spring. Dave (38m 56s): Yeah, what was that called? Jeff (38m 58s): It’s on the Yellow dog field reports. Okay. So it was a yellow dog film and they have field reports for all their destinations now. But the chocolate mossier fishing, something that I hadn’t done a lot of, I’ve done a little bit of it in Bhutan last time. But this place that we went was unbelievable. And we got chocolates up to 12, maybe even 15 pounds, which I didn’t know they got that big based on my first trip. But it was, it was awesome. And those guys, you know, you can catch Golden Sun dry flies once in a while. I’ve got a few big ones over the years. But you can consistently catch the chocolates. Dave (39m 32s): The chocolates good. Okay. And the Goldens, do they get a little bit bigger or about the same size? Jeff (39m 36s): Golden. Get way bigger. I’ve cut goldens up to almost 30 pounds. Oh. And I think the record now on fly is 48 pounds, maybe even over 50. One of the Indian friends of mine that I used to fish with in India, Bobby, Bobby Sappal, I think he’s broken his own record several times. He might have a fish as well in the fifties now. Dave (39m 56s): That was great. Nice. Well let, let’s wrap up this list real quick here in Australia. And you just mentioned it at the start there, but what is the one species there? Jeff (40m 3s): Well, I’ve trout fished there. Tasmania trout fishing is amazing. Fish in the brown trout in the lakes down there is, you know, something that I’m, that I’m passionate about doing. But this last trip, I’d have to say the, the salt water fly fishing I did with Ossie fly fishers and Josh Hutchins up in the north was incredible. I was there to try and knock off my fourth species of permit the antic. Huh. And we, yeah, I hooked one and I had it on for a while, lost it, which is always a bummer when you lose a Dave (40m 32s): Permit. Oh. And that doesn’t count right. You, you have to land it. Jeff (40m 34s): Oh yeah, of course. So, you know, I didn’t knock off the species, but we had great fishing and Golden Valle. It’s an overlooked fish. You know, they’re, they’re bonded up there in Northern Australia. But if you go to the Seychelles and try to catch a golden traval, you go down to Oman and try to catch a golden traval or you know, out of Dubai, they’re not easy. So I would’ve to say that it, they, the goldens, there were a lot of them up on the west side of Cape York and we caught a lot of ’em. It was great. And it’s one of my favorites. They’re beautiful and they’re fun to catch. Dave (41m 4s): Nice. Good. Okay. What about on, on these places? Where could you, you know, you have your website, right? Are you, you’re still, that’s a good place to see all of the, a lot of these species? Or are there other places that does Yellow Dog or where could folks see videos or any of that other content? Yeah, Jeff (41m 18s): I would say the best place to really see the species in, in hear a little bit about ’em and you know, the Latin names would be my website. So if you type in my name and any weird phish, there’s a good chance that it’s gonna come up to where when I caught it and I still do my blog. My blog is, is very in depth and I’ve written about every single day of Phish still since October of 2009. So, oh wow. Yeah. I’m actually behind one day I gotta get caught up. When I came back from Gabon, I literally, I pushed the envelope a little too much. I left on December 27th, got back on January 11th, landed in Wisconsin and, and just slept in my bed that night. Jeff (41m 58s): And the next day, by noon my wife and I hopped in the van and started the show circuit. So the last week was my first time home this year. Oh Dave (42m 4s): It was, you were on the road the whole time. That’s right because we talked about that last time. Yeah. You guys, have you picked up the van? Has the van been pretty awesome on the show? You’ve had that now a few years, right? Jeff (42m 13s): Yeah, we love that thing. It’s heaven. Yeah. So we just got moved outta the van. I mean, when I’m doing the shows, the show puts me up in a hotel Thursday night through Sunday night and then we’re back in the van Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and moving to the next place. But we did three weeks. We had a, I dunno, maybe a 18 day break between the Atlanta show and the Denver show. So, and I had some one night speaking gigs down in southern Georgia and down in Florida. So we drove the van down to those. So we pretty much camped and fished outta the van for two weeks through Florida. And that, that was really nice. Yeah. And I’m not a big Florida guy ’cause it’s crowded, but you know, I gotta say we had a really nice time. Yeah. Dave (42m 51s): And what is the van again? This is a, describe the van, what you guys have there. Jeff (42m 55s): So it’s the Dodge Ram, it’s called the Solis Winnebago. So it’s like a, it’s the smallest van you can get. It’s not like the, the fancy Mercedes sprinters. Right. You know, the couriers had to do the cheap. Yeah, right. But it’s paid off really well. It’s, it’s been awesome. Dave (43m 10s): That’s really cool. Yeah, I, I love the, and so what you guys do is maybe describe that, let’s go back to the show. Where does it start? And then talk about your journeys, like where you’re going and where you’re traveling. So where, what’s the first show of the year? Jeff (43m 21s): First show of the year was the Mar board with Fly fishing show in Massachusetts. Dave (43m 25s): Is that January? Jeff (43m 26s): Yep. That was, I think it was around January 16th. So, you know, I said I flew in on the 11th. I immediately, we got in the van and left on the 12th. And our first stop before going directly to the show, I think the, you have to set up at the show on the 15th or 16th. We actually drove straight to New Hampshire to see my 83-year-old mom. Wow. Who’s doing great and you know, so we stopped and visited her for a couple days, then we drove down and did the show and then went back up, spent another couple days with mom ’cause it’s only a couple hours from that show. And and then we moved on to new the New Jersey show, which is, you know, that’s a big one. And then from there I did a one night speaking thing, you know, on the way down. Jeff (44m 7s): And then we went to, did the Atlanta Show. And these are all three day shows. Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And that’s another big fly fishing show. That was fabulous. And then from there is when we went down to Florida and kind of did our own thing for, you know, two weeks camped and fished and visited friends and did a really fun gig in Naples for their, their annual banquet. It was really awesome. Did I think it’s funny, they had me talk about trout fishing the world in Naples. Huh. But, you know, most of those people are snowbirds, so they, they come from, you know, trouty stuff. So anyways, a really good time. Got to do some fishing, caught a couple baby tarping and a whole bunch of snook. It was great. So Dave (44m 46s): That’s Florida then. Do you get around to the rest of the shows too? All the way out west? Jeff (44m 50s): Yep. So then we eased our way to the Denver show. So we did a week’s drive, you know, camping outta the van and we, we hit that awful cold front that was ripping through the center of the, the country, you know, three weeks ago. Oh my God. Oh, right. We had, the couriers are pretty tough, so we don’t use our heat in our van very often. Well it was one, it was one below zero Wow. When we were settling in, you know, drinking a glass of wine in the van and cooking dinner. And granny said, you know, I think we’re gonna use the heat tonight. We never used it. Let’s give it a try. So she gets up there and fires it up and I’m like, yeah, this is a great idea. Because in the van it was probably getting down in the twenties and she fires it up and within like 10 minutes things start feeling real snug in there. Jeff (45m 32s): And then I started smelling the burning. Oh. And I’m like, oh, we got some of the, the heating ducks in the back of the van are covered, you know, people see me at the shows and I sell my coffee mugs and beer steins. So I had a hundred of those in our vans kinda stacked in the back in cardboard boxes while they were blocking the heating ducts and we had to turn the heat off. So that was kind of a bummer. Dave (45m 52s): Oh, so you didn’t have the heat so you had to be sleep. And we froze. You froze. Jeff (45m 56s): Yeah, we froze. Dave (45m 57s): That’s right. Yeah. One below zero is not an easy one to God. So you, but you survived. You you didn’t freeze out there. Actually, Jeff (46m 3s): Yeah, we survived. You know, I got up probably six in the morning, fired up the van and so we used the heat of the coming off the engine and fired up the coffee. So we had the two burner stove going both burners going. So, you know, you get through it. But we made it to Denver and Denver was a great show. Normally I do continue on to do the, the California show and in the past I’ve been up at the, the show up in, in Washington, but the last couple times we took the van over the Sierras was just miserable with weather. Dave (46m 32s): Yeah, I know. The Sierras are tough. That area is not easy driving. We did that too, right? It’s tough. Jeff (46m 36s): Yeah. So we, we didn’t do it this year. I instead, I’ve chosen to go host in the Seychelles, which I think is a, a better, smarter idea. So we were talking about getting smarter as you get older. Yep. I think this might be my new gig. Dave (46m 48s): That’s it. That’s it. Cool. So, so that’s the tour and you’re getting around. What are, I’m interested, I was kind of thinking of travel tips, you know, like for people out there. What, well first let’s do this. I want to, we’re gonna take it out here with some travel tips really quick, but let’s do a quick shout out. This is our, let’s do our casting challenge. Shout out. This is pretty awesome. We’re doing a, we’re doing a giveaway of a, a custom made fly Rod Togiak River Lodge is giving this away. And what we’re doing is trying to get some casting tips from all of our best guests. So first we’ll give a shout out to Togiak River Lodge. And then what would be your, you know, casting like somebody’s out there struggling with the cast. What, what do you tell somebody? Like you’re, you’re hosting, right? So does that come up a little bit where you’re helping teach a little bit at times? Dave (47m 29s): Oh, Jeff (47m 29s): Absolutely. So the most of these guys are going to be on this trip to seashells are, you know, they were clients. Now they’re friends and so I can be hard on ’em ’cause they’re, yeah, they’re close enough friends and I tell ’em number one, they’re all pretty qualified but still practice. So a lot of these guys are like me. They’ve been, you know, in the cold all winter and even though their last cast in October was, you know, a great cast and their double haul was looking pretty good, I guarantee in four months that they lost some of that. And you we’re gonna get off the plane in the s sey shells with little jet lag and the wind’s gonna be blowing and you know, if they haven’t practiced a little bit beforehand, those first two days, they’re gonna kind of suck and it’s gonna cost you a couple fish. Jeff (48m 13s): So practice, practice, practice. And you know, I mentioned the double hall there. Yeah. That’s something everybody has to learn. I know I do. I teach the double hall at the big shows and I’ll have, you know, whatever, 50 people or 200 people depending on the show standing around the casting bond. And I’m talking the double hall and I know there are people out there that are looking at me that have been fishing, fly fishing for 40 years and they still don’t know the double hall and they’re convinced they don’t need it. But you do, it helps a lot. And you don’t just need it for salt water. It helps you with your fresh water fishing as well. It’s essential. Dave (48m 46s): It is. Yeah. The double hall is key. And that’s probably just like anything, right. Either get an instructor if you can. Right. Get a casting instructor or get a guide trip. Right. Get somebody who can show you the double hall. Is that probably the best advice? Jeff (48m 57s): That’s the best way to do it. And if, if that’s not an option and not everybody can afford a, you know, private casting lesson. I know I learned it from Mel Krieger. And if you type in Mel Krieger on your computer, how to learn the double hall, you’ll find some all Mel Krieger videos. Dave (49m 11s): Oh you will. Online. So they’re still out there. Jeff (49m 13s): Yeah, Mel’s been gone a long time, but his videos are still there and he has a great way of teaching it. Yeah. Dave (49m 18s): Okay, good. So there you go. So the double hall, I love that reminder as well. Well let’s, let’s jump into a few kind of just travel tips. I wanna talk to you, ’cause obviously you’ve traveled all over the place, you know, both by, by van and by plane. What would you say out there if, if somebody, you know, we’re, we’re getting ready for this spring summer season traveling, do you have a few things you’re always thinking about, like to make sure you have a good, you know, trip out there with the travel? Jeff (49m 40s): Yeah, so if you’re going on a big trip, I would say give yourself a buffer day on the way to your destination. So you know, I’m leaving to the Seychelles tomorrow and I really don’t have to be there until Tuesday because my charter flight is on Wednesday. But that charter flight only goes once a week. If I miss the charter flight, I miss the trip. So I’m leaving Saturday with the plans of getting there on Monday, Monday morning. So I’m gonna have a full day to just, you know, make sure I got there to catch that charter. But the other reason I’m dealing with almost a 12 hour time change. So I get a little bit used to that time change and I don’t waste a day on the trip being jet lagged. Jeff (50m 26s): That’s a killer tip right there. The other thing I’ll tell you, I mean I get this question all the time, you know, people send me little messages like how do you pack your fly rods? Right. You know, what kind of case do you like for carrying ’em on the plane? I check my rods. Dave (50m 41s): You Jeff (50m 41s): Do, you cannot trust TSA people around the world. They all have different opinions. And I missed a flight to Egypt one time, you know, I carried my rods from Jackson Hole all the way to Europe and then of course Air France had another TSA check in there before it. We board our flight to go to Egypt and they wouldn’t let me out with my rods. And so I had to get out of the system, go through, check in again, check my rods anyway. And then I missed my flight. So I didn’t get to Egypt till like eight hours later and flew into Cairo in the middle of the night by myself, which kinda sucked. So we have the ability to book our flights ourselves now, just give yourself time between flights, you know, don’t do a real, you know, 40 minute change. Jeff (51m 23s): If you can avoid it, do a two or three hour change, just lay around the airport a little bit and your luggage will probably make it nine times out of 10. More than that. I have good success. Don’t wanna jinx myself right now. Dave (51m 36s): Right. I love that. No, those are awesome. I’ve heard that one before too about the checking the raws that, you know, there, there are things Yeah, you could pull it on. There’s even, you know, real packable rods, like the six pieces that will fit in a backpack if you wanted to, you know, just to have a backup. But, but yeah, I think checking the rods, that’s a great tip. And then also, right, you have the, the air tags so you can kind of see where your bag is if you want to kind of track it and all that too. Jeff (51m 58s): Yeah, you can do it that way. Yeah, that, that definitely helps if, if your bag’s missing when you get there. But you know, I can see what my bags are doing when I’m flying Delta right there on my, on the Delta app. Dave (52m 8s): Oh you can? Yeah. Oh, you can see it on the Delta. Okay. Jeff (52m 10s): Yeah, you can track your own bags right there. It’s funny, my, I had some luggage lost coming back from Gabon and it was pretty cool that even after my, my bag got delivered to Duluth Airport and then it was driving to my house in Hayward. I could see my bag driving and to Dave (52m 26s): Hayward. Oh you could on the app. That’s amazing. Yeah. So how do they do that? So that, and that’s not your tracking device? That’s them. They, how, how do they, Jeff (52m 33s): Yeah, so Delta hands it over to their luggage delivering people. Dave (52m 38s): Oh yeah. They’re just all tracked. Yeah, they have, they’re all tracked. Right. Jeff (52m 40s): Yeah, it was awesome. I went to the Delta site and here’s my bag, you know, coming down the, the 53 to my house. I’m like, oh sweet, it’s gonna be here in about 20 minutes. There Dave (52m 47s): You go. That’s pretty cool. Yeah, I had a bag lost. Well it was lost for, again, same thing. If I would’ve probably had a buffer day, some extra time, I might’ve been okay. But yeah, I didn’t have it for a trip to the, to Lake Erie and, you know what I mean, for a week I had to get borrow stuff, but they ended up giving me a check, right. To buy some stuff, you know, the airline, which is kind of cool. So I don’t know if that’s another tip they do often, but because they lost my bag, they gave me some free stuff, which was cool. What about another, just one more travel tip, like it could be by road or by plane or automobile. What else would you tell somebody? Jeff (53m 21s): Have some snacks and water, you know, so I, I got my empty water bottle and my carry on for tomorrow and as soon as I get to the airport I’ll fill that baby up. So I’ll have it, you know, on my travels. But also if I’m, you know, traveling to the Van Granny and I fill up our, you know, our Yeti water bottles every chance we get. And then the energy bars are great. You know, I’m a Kate’s bar guy ’cause Kate’s were kind of invented in Victor, Idaho. Oh Dave (53m 43s): Yeah. Well now what are those? That’s Kate the Kate’s bar? Jeff (53m 45s): Yep. It’s called the Kate’s Bar. Okay. And Kate started, ’cause she was a ski racer and you know, hardcore outdoor sports gal and she was making these concoctions for herself and somebody said, you know, you ought to do something. Those things are amazing. And she did. So now they’ve taken off. Oh good. They even served ’em now on Delta. Oh wow. But yeah, so I always have, you know, I have six cape bars in my backpack for tomorrow. ’cause I’m gonna be flying for three days and you know, if I run outta food or feel like I’m hungry and I don’t, you know, on a long flight, I can just whip it out and I’m fine. And there’s a lot of nutrition in there. I mean there, I don’t wanna live on what I’m not, you know, traveling because you’ll, you get fat, but when you need some quick protein and some, you know, your body needs it, it, it Dave (54m 26s): Provides. Yeah. I’m looking at the, this is so good. I’m, I’m glad you batched this ’cause I’m a big energy bar guy too and I, I get tired. I’m on, I’m back to the Luna Bars right now just because I can’t think of another one. But yeah, I mean, yeah honey peanut butter, it’s all that. Yeah. All sorts of good stuff in there. So I’m gonna be hitting up the Kate’s bar. This is perfect, Jeff. I’m glad you mentioned this. So good. Well we got a few bonus tips outta you I guess. Anything else before we get outta here just on, you know, you want to leave people with anything you have coming with, you know, your trips, your travel, any of the hosted things you want to give a shout out to? Yeah, Jeff (54m 57s): I would say definitely about a week from now you wanna tune into my website and start checking out the blog. ’cause I will be posting my sey shells days. And I’m just gonna tell you the sage shells, I mean, I’ve, I’ve seen a lot of the saltwater destinations. It is, it is one of the best it is. And yeah, it’s nothing really compares. So there’ll be some cool fish up there and some good stories. Definitely check in on that. And then, you know, in April I’ll have that my little speaking tour, which will involve some serious grass carp fishing and you know, I’ll put tips on, you know, how I catch those things on there as well. And then it’ll be Wisconsin summer, it’s gonna be awesome. Dave (55m 34s): Wisconsin summer. Yeah, Wisconsin summer is great because like you said, the summers are amazing up there. Right. You have the cold winters, but are the summers the, I guess depending on how far north you you go, you get into some bugs, but are they just pretty much perfect up there? Jeff (55m 46s): They’re perfect. I mean, we definitely have bugs and it’s, it’s the same anywhere. The, the worst the bugs are the better the fishing. Oh yeah. So I’m happy to say our bugs are bad, so our fishing is good. But what’s cool about where I live is, you know, I’m also only, you know, so I have my, my smallies, my walleyes and pike and Musky right here. And I do have some really good trout fishing close to home here, but I’m also only an hour from Lake Superior. So I can go up there and chase some of the, the really big pike and the big smallies in Schwa Magan Bay. And we also have salmon steelhead in the bay. And you know, we have a pretty good spring steelhead run on the Brule River, which is Oh yeah. You know, I’m half hour from the Brule. I mean, I’m in paradise loving it. Dave (56m 27s): Yeah, no, it’s great. We, we did an episode recently on fishing Wisconsin with Carl, who is Oh yeah, yeah. He runs the fishing show. Right. One of the biggest, I guess it’s the biggest one of in that area, maybe in the Midwest. But yeah, it was really cool because I think he talked about, he took us around, you know, and then you also have the drift list, right. Or some of those areas too. Right? Yep. You talk about the Jeff (56m 45s): Trout, Driftless is a great spot as well. Amazing trout fishing down there. Dave (56m 48s): Yeah. So I feel like Wisconsin, I think, yeah, you made a good choice. You know, again, it’s, you got out of the, the really spendy stuff and get to the play. And it was funny because I think Mike Schultz, we were doing a call with him and he was talking about the phishing license in Michigan is like $14 or something like that. Right. Or, or one of those. Right. It’s not very much to even do a phishing, like for a day out there. Jeff (57m 8s): Yeah. It’s, it’s pretty, pretty ridiculous. Which Dave (57m 11s): Is good. Okay. All right Jeff, well I think we’ll leave it there. We’ll send everybody out to jeff courier.com or Jeff Courier 65 on Instagram if they wanna follow you. Yeah, Jeff (57m 19s): That’s perfect. Dave (57m 20s): Okay. Alright Jeff, well thanks for all your time again and definitely we’ll be following you on your blog and appreciate all your stories and catching up with you. Jeff (57m 27s): Pleasure, Dave. Thank you. Dave (57m 30s): All right. If you get a chance, check in with Jeff. Send him an email, Instagram, let him know you heard this podcast. Let him know you’re supporting his journey to 500 and, and maybe pick his brain about what’s other species we missed today. If you get a chance, please subscribe to this podcast or follow the show, apple Podcast, Spotify, any app you’re on, just click that follow button and you’ll get the next podcast right into your inbox. Alright, one shout out here before we get outta here. Just wanted to let you know, wetly Swing Pro is still going strong. If you’re interested, go to wetly swing.com/pro and I’ll give you some information on how to sign up for that. This is the place where we are building our best trips together as a group and, and it’s a good place to connect with me and follow up on some other information. Dave (58m 16s): I appreciate you for stopping by today. Hope you have a great morning. Hope you have a wonderful afternoon or if it’s evening, if it’s late in the evening, I hope you’re having a good evening and we’ll talk to you tomorrow. Outro (58m 26s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing.com.

jeff currier

Conclusion with Jeff Currier on his Quest for 500 Species on the Fly

Jeff Currier continues to push the boundaries of what’s possible in the fly fishing world. With nearly 500 species under his belt and no plans of slowing down, his stories remind us why we all love the adventure of fishing. Whether you’re chasing local carp or golden trevally on the other side of the world, Jeff proves that there’s always another fish out there — and a story to go with it. Be sure to check out more of Jeff’s travels, species list, and art at jeffcurrier.com.

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