CJ’s Reel Southern Podcast #1 | Chad Johnson and Alex Lafkas – Streamers from Michigan to Arkansas

Chad (2s): Hello, this is Chad Johnson with CJ’s Real Southern Podcast. This is our first podcast we’ll be putting out. We are working with Dave Stewart from the Wet Fly. And just to tell you a little bit about myself, I’m Chad Johnson. I live in the Ozarks. I got on the White River and the Norfolk and the Buffalo and Crooked Creek for small mouth and trout. And we are gonna be talking over the next few months about just trophy fishing, what tactics and techniques you need to use to catch the bigger fish. We will be talking Musky bass trout. Chad (43s): We’re not locked down to any species, we’re just gonna talk trophy hunting. So today we have with us Morgan Guss of Diamond State Fly Shop and Alex Lafkas. And what we’re gonna be doing is I will have Morgan come on for five to 10 minutes at the beginning of each show and he will give a report on what you can do in the Ozarks if you’re coming for that month. So it won’t be a fishing report, more of a what to look at, You know, a given month. This stripers are running, the white bass are running up the creeks and the Cass are hatching. You know, we’re just gonna give you an idea of what to look for in the Ozarks for that month. Chad (1m 25s): Now we will let Morgan Gus do his fishing report. How we doing today, Morgan? Good man. So what, what’s gonna be going on in the area for us for the month of March? Morgan (1m 40s): So starting to talk about, let’s talk about our rivers. First month of March is usually when we start seeing some of our wet seasons. So river fluctuation and water level’s gonna change quite a bit. It can be a great time of year to come out and wade fish, but as we get those rains we’re gonna see higher generation. With that higher generation. We still have great streamer fishing, we still have great low water Ming, just depends on what they’re generating at that time. So if you are wade fishing, just keep an eye out for any of those high water releases coming with those high water releases. One of the big things that I tend to see on the White River in particular, it can happen on the Norfolk as well, is we can get our shad kills. Morgan (2m 23s): I’ve had some of my best shad kill months and days in March. I think it was two years ago, I think it was about March 20th, that we had one of the most epic Chad Shaki days. Yeah. Chad (2m 37s): And just a little later than you would expect it. So it march can kinda be that changeover month. But even though the water fluctuates, like you’re saying, like it’s still a great minnow bike. Correct, yeah. Whether they’re shad coming through or whether we’re still on our minnows from just our, You know, winter time is shad, is winter time is minnow time for, for them as far as food based. So whether it’s coming from the dam or whether it’s in the river, you feel confident fishing minnow patterns. Morgan (3m 6s): Yeah, absolutely. And and those, you know, those shad kills are so unpredictable that they can just come outta nowhere. So if I see, if I’m looking at that schedule and I see a big bump of water coming, I’m probably gonna be close to the dam and can run up and get it if it’s there. And that’s, it’s really one of those things where it’s just luck of the draw. Chad (3m 31s): Right. And then, but guys don’t feel confident fishing those downstream as well, even where they’re not getting the shad because it’s minnow season, right. So you can play the Shad game, you can play the minnow game, but it’s still the same flies, the same techniques. Morgan (3m 48s): Absolutely. Chad (3m 48s): Yeah. Perfect. Okay. Yeah, Morgan (3m 50s): You can totally do that and just run down Ray’s just always worth, You know, maybe looking at that front wave and just seeing, just seeing what happens, see if there’s any birds working, anything like that. And then you can move down river and play with some very similar patterns throughout the river. Chad (4m 5s): Right. So you’re not out of position even if the shad don’t come through. Correct. Morgan (4m 9s): Yeah, you can still be on that front wave of water and, and that big water push up against the bank, throw streamers, throw minow, minow patterns along the bank, stuff like that. Talking about Shad, there will probably be some stripers still up in the water column. Chasing shad around the lakes does take a lot of idling around in the boat graphing, looking for those signs and looking for those pods of striper. But if you can stumble upon ’em, it can be really, really fun on the fly. Right. Still might have to throw some sinking lines to get down to ’em. It’s not that they’re gonna be right on the surface, which they might be, but even if they’re in that zero to 10 foot water column, they’re targetable on fly Chad (4m 53s): With us for a fly. And also I, you know, I, I actually haven’t spent a lot of time up on the lake so I didn’t really know, but here a couple of years ago I got a houseboat on the lake and it’s parked in a cove and like right now I got a call a couple of days ago, there’s shad floating in all the back pockets of all of the big coves on the dan on the lake right now. And so large mouth stripers, all kinds of things are coming up eating. And I was blown away Lo just woke up one morning and looked off the back of my house boat and was like, holy crap. The whole base covered in shot and there were a mix of everything up eating them. Chad (5m 34s): So this can be a really fun time to go up there and just kind of put around and see what you’re seeing. Morgan (5m 39s): Yeah, and I mean it does not necessarily just the stripers too. I mean you’re gonna see large mouth, small mouth, everything pushing bait towards banks and kind of starting to get into that, as those water temperatures start to come up on the lake, you’re gonna see the beginning of that pres spawn activity. So you can play around a lot of that stuff and then even, You know, even croppy are gonna gonna start coming up, you know, and getting in those little bit shallower brush piles where they’re, they are targetable on fly running a slip bobber or something. Chad (6m 12s): Yes, absolutely. I have a buddy just last weekend said was the first weekend he really got on them good ’cause we had not really had a good cold snap all of a sudden we got a good cold snap and boom they freaking kicked on for him. Morgan (6m 26s): Yeah. It turns around Chad (6m 27s): Perfect. And guys, if y’all don’t know down here, like we, You know, everybody talks about our white rivers and we’ve got the white and the Norfolk and crooked and the buffalo and a bunch of different streams down here, but we have massive lakes. So like Bull SHOs Lake has 1300 miles of shoreline. Norfolk Lake has 900 miles of shoreline. So we’re not talking, I mean there is a lot of lake. Morgan (6m 50s): Yeah. And I believe, I believe Bull SHOs is the biggest lake in the White River in Ment, if I’m not mistaken. I believe it is. Chad (6m 58s): I think that’s right. I don’t, don’t write it down or nothing. Yeah. But I think that’s right. I think it gets, Morgan (7m 3s): Yeah, yeah, yeah, Chad (7m 4s): Yeah. And if we say it, it’s gotta be said no. All right, so what else you got? Is that it for the month of March? That’s Morgan (7m 13s): Pretty much it. Yeah Chad (7m 14s): Guys March is a pretty big turnover month, so like that’s, that’s kinda what you have going on this month. So just real quick before we go, as I told you Morgan owner and operator of Diamond State Fly Shop here in Kotter Morgan, why don’t you just tell us here for a minute what you have going on. I know you just opened up and had your grand opening and, and so what do you have going on here at Diamond State? Morgan (7m 39s): Yeah, so we bought this property in over Memorial Day of 2024. We had a pretty quick turnaround, got it opened up in on Labor Day weekend. So we’re just kind of starting our first full year over here. So we’re definitely planning on a lot of events. We still have a ton of product coming in. We have a a ton of product already and that’s one of the really cool things about this area is we have so much variety of stuff to do, like planning on the lakes and stuff like that, that we carry a, a huge variety of fly patterns that aren’t just necessarily trout specific. Chad (8m 13s): Right. You got ’em covered. Yeah. Morgan (8m 16s): And then, and same with lines and Leader tip and all that kind of stuff. So we’re definitely gonna be putting on a lot more events here at the shop about mid-March, mid to late March. We’re looking to do something kind of close to when the Sal be roundup’s gonna be going off and having like a open tying night. Chad (8m 34s): Okay. And then did you, where are you putting your videos at? Because these guys are doing a lot of how tos and some tying videos and some rigging videos. So where can the people find that at? Morgan (8m 45s): Yeah, so we do a lot of stuff on Instagram. So you can check us out just Diamond State Fly Co on Instagram and then same thing on YouTube. So a lot of our longer format stuff is gonna be on YouTube but doing a lot of shorts, like 32nd time tips and things of that nature, that’ll be on Instagram. Chad (9m 0s): Sure guys, keep your eyes out for that. Go on, check him out. As you guys may or may not know Dali’s Fly Shop has closed personally I’ll be working here with Diamond State Fly Shop. We’ll be using them as a resource. We’ll be using them for all our gear. The guys are set up really nice. There shouldn’t be any bumps in the system. So yeah, you guys come check ’em out over here at Diamond State and Morgan, thanks for keeping us up on what we need to do this month for good fishing trip. Right Morgan (9m 33s): On. Thanks for having me. Chad (9m 34s): All right. And we want to introduce our second guest, Alex Lafkas from Traverse, Michigan. How you doing Mr. Alex? Alex (9m 42s): Good, Chad. Good. Chad (9m 45s): So for me and Alex, this is kinda, or for me anyway, this is kinda where it all began and the, the trophy hunting, the, the streamer fishing, Mr. Alex came down from Michigan and him and a couple of his buddies come down and if I remember the story right, threw some small bugs for a few days and wasn’t getting them. So he opted to throw some Musky bugs and started moving some fish and he broke a rod and I loaned him a rod and, and this hatched the friendship and the next few years of trying to figure out this game here on the white. Chad (10m 24s): Alex, if you would go ahead and tell us a little bit about what you do up north and what your business is and who you are. Alex (10m 31s): Thanks Chad. Oh, I don’t know, I’m just kind of a fish bum. What drew me down here, the first part was like, I always saw pictures of really big fish that came from here and You know, you didn’t hear much about people stream or fishing them or anything, but like you saw the caliber and just understanding how brown trout tend to behave. It’s like well there’s gotta be some opportunity. So I had a client who, a dear friend who used to come and visit the lodge and I’d guide him up there and he always invited me down and I finally called him and I’m like, dude, what’s going on? So, oh you gotta come down here. Oh, 30 pounders. 30 pounders. And I’m like, well You know, let’s, let’s see if we can catch five pounders and go from there. Alex (11m 12s): So we come down for a week just, yeah, like you said, me and a couple buddies and initially, You know like the first thing that drew me here was February. I’m figuring like, okay postpone. So they’re probably spawning, You know, December, January, seeing as they spawn more November-ish in Michigan, October, November. I’m like, well later in the year, whatever. So we figured that was my first jump to come down February. I was very fortunate in February that when I came down here with just my drift boat, it was one of those flood years where we was just running 25 grand round the clock. So it was like obviously Chad (11m 43s): Money stream fishing. Alex (11m 44s): Yeah. Like, You know, and I mean it was like year or two before I ever saw the bottom of the river and I’m like, oh my god, how could there even be a fish in Chad (11m 50s): Here? Seems like maybe I remember that when you come and just kinda, holy crap, where’d the river go? Like 50. And at that time it would’ve been down to 50 CFS on a river of this size, which was ridiculous. Alex (12m 6s): Oh trickle. And it was, it was really weird ’cause it was like how can there be that many fish when you see it at that flow? And it’s like, it didn’t even make sense that they could be, it could hold that many big fish. So like it was really easy the first year I came down, You know, I mean it was, it was lay down, go to the bank, rip some stuff they’d never seen and you were getting feedback obviously. Chad (12m 28s): Well and they had never seen those before. Oh yeah. They had never seen a streamer like that before. There were a couple of guys, Dave Whitlock, Dwayne Hadda Alex (12m 38s): And even Jamie Route. Chad (12m 39s): Yeah. That tied up some really big bugs and fished them. But it felt like kinda what they’d done was they went out and fished them and they caught a few fish on ’em but they didn’t see it as being a liable like tactic to catch ’em. You would catch one every once in a while but it wasn’t like the thing to do for the day. And so that was really turned around when you started bringing in like true trophy hunters. Yeah. That didn’t care if they only caught one a day or one a week as long as they got the one. Alex (13m 10s): And that was kind of, frankly it really developed in Michigan because you had like the Gallup and Lensman crew who had already pushed that to people and they were like, oh no, you just grind it out, see what you can see. And then, you know, with the younger generation, You know, like as Russ got into it with Kelly and I started to meet Russ and like, I mean we’re talking over 25 years ago now or 25 at least, You know, there was just that dude, it’s the constant chasing the high thing and that we’re doing in your twenties where it’s like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And you’re seeing that big play out of that fish and it gets addicting and it’s like I gotta do it, gotta do it, gotta do it. So you just go and make the fish behave and you catch ’em the way you wanna catch ’em and then you figure out how to do that the best and more effective and just get better and better and better. Alex (13m 56s): And the more days, more hours, more everything out there, the better you get at it. You know, like I feel comfortable as a streamer guide ’cause it’s like, dude, it’s what I do. You know like and Chad (14m 7s): We’re used to the grind, we’re used to the hunt. I mean that’s, that is streamer fishing. This Alex (14m 12s): Is child’s play compared to Musky fishing where I fish, You know, this is, what do you mean? Oh You know the difference between muskie fishing and doing this is you actually catch fish doing this, You know, muskie fishing, you just go and don’t see anything all day and on a good day you get one. You know like so I mean this is child’s play. This ain’t even hard. Chad (14m 28s): Yeah. Muskies fish of a thousand casts brown trout’s only 999. Alex (14m 34s): Yeah. Or the one right cast at the right time. Which is kind of how you could look at muskies too. It’s just harder to get that one cast at the right time. Chad (14m 40s): Well I’ll never forget the day we were doing a class out on the river and we kinda went down a bank and we beat the crap out of it with all our boats and then we stopped and done a little tutorial and you said, yeah, You know there were really only four cash you needed to make on that bank. Yeah. So like it’s not always like sometimes we’ll hit these little bitty spots or, or off the wall little lies and you go, but guys you gotta realize it. I only need one bite today. Right. It’s not about beating up this whole bank, it’s about putting that fly in the right spot once today. Alex (15m 15s): Yeah. And that’s also something like, You know, this river’s really interesting ’cause it’s a big river and the more you learn it, the more you’re like, no, no, no, your cast needs to be there or there, not there, there, there, there, there. But there or there. Yeah. You might catch something on occasion out of this spot or that spot. But it’s like the more you break it down and see it, the more you see no they’re gonna come out of this type of water. The big one comes out of this type of stuff. You can get some smaller fish out of this if the flows are here, they’re there. It’s really interesting. It’s actually, You know, I think to Michigan too and like dudes just go and lacerate every spot up and down the bank like they do here. And once you see it enough you’re kinda like, nah, it’s, if the big one’s gonna go, he is gonna come from here. Alex (15m 58s): The big one’s gonna go, he is gonna come from here. It’s a little different here ’cause I don’t know it as well. But the guys I know that do know it, like, I mean I’ve been with guys where they’re like, nah, nah, once it drops two more inches, that spot fish is better. Chad (16m 11s): Yeah. Right. Alex (16m 12s): And and I, and I’ll never learn that. Chad (16m 13s): And the water is everything down here because of the tail water. So is it rising, is it falling? Is it, but this is a great intro into kinda what I thought I would talk about with you today is some of the differences between what you see in Michigan when you’re streamer fishing and what you’re seeing in, in the south in Arkansas when you’re streamer fishing. Like, talk to us a little bit about what are the differences in flies? Are there any differences in retrieves? Like just kinda what are those little differences you see between Michigan and here? Because we obviously know, and from the last conversation as well, I mean this, this whole thing kind of birthed in Michigan. Alex (16m 53s): Yeah. A lot of the streamer stuff did. I think Michigan is a little different and a lot of the free flowing trout streams up there because we have real defined seasons where it’s like, I mean you guys are kind of dealing with about within a eight to 10 degree water temperature range all year. You know, and, and we’re not, we’re dealing with 30 to 40 degree temperature swings when you start looking at winter in the low thirties to summer peaks in the seventies. So, You know, like you’ve gotta, we adjust a lot more pattern presentation based on a lot of that stuff. You get a lot of reaction bite stuff here. The only time you, it seems like it really starts to slip is like as you get into March when you’re starting to get the coldest water of the year coming out of the dam, You know, that’s when I start seeing like, okay it’s slow. Alex (17m 40s): You gotta fish it deep, you gotta fish it. Slow fish aren’t necessarily pushing to the banks as quick as they tend to in warmer water metabolism’s slower. They can take two bites and sit there and not do anything. So like, You know, as You know, I used to stay through through March and anymore I’m like okay, I saw the best I can leave now. Chad (17m 58s): Right. And, and that would be the difference in like we talk about sometimes the difference in the bite and like are you feeding them or are you getting the aggression bite? Right. Because like we use a lot of like Kelly Gallup style stuff in that march, right? Yes. Like that sh that smaller, the sculpins, the six dungeons, the flat liners, the, You know, and then we have several bugs as well. The many Johnson and blah blah blah blah blah. But we, we tend to use those smaller three to five, five inch bugs on a feeding bite. Yep. But to get that aggression bite, to have a three inch minnow in front of a big aggressive brown trout is not gonna trigger him. Chad (18m 42s): It could trigger a feed but not going to trigger an aggression bite. So that’s where you’ve come in with the, the seven inch flies, the eight inch flies. Now it’s big enough for them to go, You know, basically get the heck outta my house. Alex (18m 58s): Yeah. They’re, it’s either territorial and they eat a lot of bait fish down here. They eat small rounds, You know, like you always see it, I would assume December, but when I get here in January, like yellow’s a big color ’cause there’s some spawning going on and spawning activity and browns are really aggressive towards other browns at that point in time. You know, and then I mean I see that Chad (19m 15s): No absolutely the yellows early season because they’re aggressive towards that a hundred percent. Alex (19m 22s): Yep. And then I always notice when I’m like leaving and I start getting like late February, early March, it’s like, you know, you go and try that big stuff because you do get your windows where everything lines up and, and we see the same thing in Michigan. Like you know, as we’re in those 40 degree water windows, like I hate that personally. I don’t fish that in Michigan. I fish, I’d rather have it colder or warmer when you get in 40 degrees with runoff, like you guys are seeing with your dam flows like 40 degrees in high water, man, them fish got a lot of food and metabolism’s slow so You know, I can feed ’em sculpins here and stuff like that in Michigan. I basically just write it off. That’s my pre spon small mouth time I’m done with it. Like I don’t need to go see it. When you get those windows, they’re extremely short. Alex (20m 4s): Like as metabolism slows, those brown trout don’t need to eat much. So it’s like, what I’ve seen is like right on a wind shift, on the perfect moon phase, on the right weather day you get a 15 to 30 minute bite window Chad (20m 18s): Done. Yes. And we work big off of bite windows, right? Yeah. Like how many times have I been five miles from you on the river and called and went, Alex, I just got one. And you go, yeah, us two there’s a window opening up Alex (20m 35s): And it seems like we see that more here when the river is running consistently high because it’s less water dependent at that point. When you have consistent high water down here, it really, really seems like it’s moon phase, it’s bite windows. It’s stuff like that. You gotta just, I, the way I think of it is I’m in a lake where there’s food everywhere. ’cause in lakes you see that too where it’s like, nope, here’s the hour they’re gonna go. If you’re in a changing environment with water coming up or down or river rising or dropping like it, that is the non-natural characteristic that this river has that it opens up windows at different times for people. But I always knew when we had sustained high water, it’d be like, oh that was our hour. Chad (21m 17s): Yes. And then on the water situation, when it’s not like that and it’s going up and down, a lot of times it’s the actual water coming in or the water dumping out that actually triggers the fish and opens up the window. But Alex (21m 30s): More consistently I would say that’s true. But also if they just decide to fire, it ain’t gonna matter where you are. They’re gonna fire. Like if you get the perfect environmental conditions, whether it be a strong moon phase of a pressure change or You know, something that really dictates their activity, it ain’t gonna matter where you’re on the river. They’ll go in your consistent day-to-day stable weather pattern kind of situation. It seems like, okay, we gotta do this or we gotta do that. And it changes. It changes day to day, week to week, month to month. You know, you gotta, it can be tricky, which makes it fun because it’s a challenge. The one nice thing, the biggest thing I would say down here that is the biggest difference from what you see in Michigan is, is you get so little feedback at times Michigan. Alex (22m 15s): Like some days you get these days where it’s just pure suicide and there’s like five of those a year where it’s just like whatever fly, hit water, fish Chad (22m 22s): Pipe, oh big fish river, Alex (22m 24s): Whatever. It’s about five of those a year down here. You can actually pattern these fish. You know, like you have high enough populations in certain areas where you’re like, no, they’re packed in this type of structure eating this type of thing. You know, and and you can see it and that now that changed. Chad (22m 38s): They’re coming off of wood on the push or they’re coming off a rock on a two inch fall or whatever the scenario is. Yeah. But you can pattern that a little better. Yeah, Alex (22m 48s): That’s right. Okay. That’s right. That’s what I tend to see it. Michigan gets hard to pattern it. It becomes more of like a feel of what do I need to do now? Oh okay, these, well last year in this exact situation, this was the ticket, boom, try it again. Yep. That’s the deal. Okay thought so now we’re in this situation, boom. Gotta do this. Okay. I know. And you do it enough days and you do it for 20 years and all of a sudden you put that together quicker than the next guy. Chad (23m 11s): And I think you all get to see that better up there than we do as well. We play so much off of our water that we don’t get to see some of those natural scenarios that happen that set these fish up for us to catch. We don’t see as much of that because we’re on kind of an unnatural river. And that definitely plays a part in when our fish bite and when they don’t. Alex (23m 33s): That’s very true. And, and so I think that, you know, having both ends of the spectrum and you, You know, learning this and seeing that, it’s like, okay, you can build something together but it is a lot harder. You know, like, I mean I got a worm bite, I got a leach bite, there’s a lamprey bite, there’s a bait fish bite. There’s like certain specific times. There’s also a crayfish bite, like we see specific windows open. And what I’ve been able to do down here a little is like understand that there is a change at some point where this matters or that matters or this matters or that matters. And that has helped me, You know, like seeing the cul and thing. I think also there’d be a time of year where the crayfish thing would be on fire down here. Absolutely. You know, I’ve been able to identify that. Chad (24m 13s): Well see we use a lot of, we use a lot of girdle bugs and we don’t have stone flies. They’re, they’re my, that’s crayfish in my opinion, they’re eating those as baby crayfish. That’s right. So through the summer, through the early summer, whenever all of that’s beginning to happen and we’re getting our hatch, that’s when they work the best. Alex (24m 31s): Yep. And you notice, like I always notice fish getting ’em like right there in the top lip. I don’t know if you’ve seen that here. Absolutely. And it’s like they’re crunching. Yeah. Chad (24m 38s): They’re used to getting, they’re used to eating little crawdads off the bottom. Yep. Little nose bite. Yep. And so those work so well through those times of year. So we’ll we, we kinda see like a winter minnow bite. Yep, yep, yep. And then we get a bug bite through early spring where it’s like cat and and midges. Alex (25m 0s): And I think your scalping bike kind of correlates with it’s, it’s kind of that tweener, pre catis Chad (25m 6s): Just right before. Yes. Just right before the cat. So all your olive wooly boogers, all your little cul and that type thing, You know, feed your family the crap out. Yeah. Alex (25m 15s): Feed your family with 20 inch round trout that time of year. It’s like, oh here they, let’s see if they’ve seen this sculping pattern. Chad (25m 22s): And then by the time we get to summer, we’re much into our, you know, we’re into that craw ad season and, and obviously hoppers and whatnot, but they’re definitely starting to eat crawfish that time of year. Alex (25m 34s): That’s, you know, you start, yeah. You start hitting certain water temperatures. I don’t know what it’s here, but it’s like you see it and you’re like, huh, well that orange and brown thing is catching every fish in the river. Wonder why? And it’s like, duh Chad (25m 46s): Dude. And everything is temperature related. Right? Like don’t negate the temperatures. Alex (25m 53s): Oh god no. I mean that’s, I live by what I see on our graphs. Like I got graphs, I look at multiple different rivers, I look for key numbers on that water temperature stuff and I’m like, gotta go now. Gotta go now. Gotta go now. Because Chad (26m 5s): So many guys look at temperature and that are they gonna be lethargic because it’s too cold or is it gonna be so hot that I’m gonna kill ’em? But we should really be looking at that temperature to decide food source. Food source what we’re trying to, yeah. So like, You know, use that temperature to decide what you should be doing, not just is it too hot or cold for me to fish to ’em or Alex (26m 31s): Find a bait fisherman who ain’t ching and see what they’re catching them on. That it helped too if you could find a big fisherman that Chad (26m 36s): Wasn’t, I think that might be tough. Tough, Alex (26m 38s): Tough. I know. I was like, oh I don’t know. They’re eating the sha on throwing a billion gallons of out there. Oh that’s shocking. Chad (26m 45s): Yeah. Well back on that note. As far as the small, small flies and big flies that we were talking about, I’ll never forget, Dave Whitlock told me one day, he goes, Chad, I don’t want you to quit what you’re doing. He goes, but I do want you to understand it takes a special fish on a special day to eat that eight inch fly. Every one of those fish that you’re catching will eat a three inch minnow. Alex (27m 11s): Yep. And that’s what I’ve done more in Michigan too because You know, the amount of big streamers being heaved at these fishes really shut down that program. I mean it’s, and dudes are out there just gunning nonsense. And it’s like, dude, I go to four inches a lot and I caught more fish over 25 inches on four inch flies in the last three to four years than I had years. And it’s like, because they do eat that every day. You used to be able to get the shock and awe bite like, oh my god, I’ve never seen that. I mean that was the initial name of like one of those big bucktail sad tide was a screaming Jesus. Because when you saw the fish coming you’d go Jesus. Chad (27m 45s): Yeah. Alex (27m 47s): So that was a screaming Jesus, you know, it was like, yeah. It was like, oh my, they’re angry. They’d never seen that being with a hook in it. So Chad (27m 54s): That shock and awe like, and we had it here as well. Like we know and, and so I’ve always said that like more so than catching a fish, burns him, I think watching a hundred poorly cast flies coming over their head where now they go, they question it for just that split second to go, is it real? And just that split second kills the aggression bite that initial inertia startup boom, I’m gonna crush it because there were that half a second they thought about it. Alex (28m 28s): Yeah. And they’re more particular on presentation. I watch a lot of these guys, I don’t don’t, I mean I just motor past them and I can tell you, oh they ain’t gonna catch nothing today. You know? Yeah. You watch presentations, people are doing it. I’m like you, I remember I was in the boat with Jason one day and we motored by this dude and he’s gunning it and I’m watching him fish and I’m like, that’s why he never catches anything. We got up river about, oh where we finally stopped motoring. And I looked at at Jay and I’m like, no, I know why it doesn’t catch anything. And Jay’s like, I saw the exact same thing. And it’s like, You know, you just see the presentation being off and You know, like down here there’s so many fish, anybody can get lucky and catch a great big one and be a hero. I mean hell, half the guys are calling 26 is thirties and they’re all Oh yeah, legend. Alex (29m 12s): ’cause they caught one big fish. It’s like, dude, if you wanna do something consistently produce nice fish, consistently produce nice fish, tough days, good days, everything you get your windows of opportunity. I don’t every day, but I have more good days than bad days. Chad (29m 25s): I always tell people, if you come to me and you hire me for three days, at some point in time during those three days, I’m gonna give you the opportunity of catching a big fish. That’s kind of, that’s, I mean, within reason, that’s kind of the way it goes. These guys that come, I don’t even let people book me for one day during the winter. Well why? Well I mean they’re, they’re here to trophy hunt. If I caught one every day it wouldn’t be a trophy. Right. So like I always go, not just give me a chance to produce for you, but give yourself a chance to produce something. You wouldn’t go elk hunting for a day to get your trophy. Alex (29m 57s): Well and people don’t, a lot of people aren’t comfortable with the rods and the flies and this and that. So you’re gonna have a half a day figuring it out and the second half of the day you’re gonna be too tired to really do it. Like, I mean, You know, if you’re not give, Chad (30m 8s): Give yourself time to make it happen. Alex (30m 10s): And frankly, I don’t care if you’re a saltwater dude and can gunn at a mile, that’s not what it matters here. It’s presentation at that point. It’s learning how to fight these fish and it’s not a salt water fish where you set the hook and just let it run. I’ve watched so many of those salt water guys fail because they set the hook and are like, oh just let it run now. It’s like, no dude, if you do not stand on this fish and pull on this fish and keep that line tight, he’s gonna come off. Chad (30m 31s): I’ve never seen that More predominant than with these trout. Yeah. I mean tarping. But these white river fish, these mig male brown trouts, nothing but bone. How many big ones have you caught that the hook fell out in the net? Alex (30m 47s): Enough enough to know, you know, I don’t know personally, I don’t get to fish anymore. I don’t, you know, so whatever. But that’s, you know why we’ve always talked about lighter wire hooks and stuff. Just grab something. But they do come at you and then they’ll bulldog you underneath the boat. They’re not gonna run the other way. No, it’s not that kind of fish. It’s come at you dog bulldog, you bulldog you bulldog you. And then you get your couple of shots with an net and usually on the second shot you should be able to scoop them. Chad (31m 13s): And one odd thing about here too, like do your brown trout jump up north? Because they do here. Alex (31m 20s): No, that’s, that’s what Russ always says is it’s a 50 degree thing. When the water’s in the fifties our browns jump. Oh okay. They don’t when it’s colder and they don’t much when it’s warmer. But when you start hitting that 50 oh they jump like crazy. That is Chad (31m 30s): The first time I’ve ever heard that I, okay, okay so it’s, it’s more about temperature. Alex (31m 36s): Yeah, it seems like it, you get it sometimes in the colder water, but more routinely it’s like, oh you get 50 degree arm Chad (31m 41s): Because you get this fish here over two foot. They still jump. Dude, those things aren’t necessarily going to the bottom. Now my experience has been if you get one on over 30 that they will not start fighting you when you hook ’em. They will track very slowly to the middle of the river before they start fighting you. Yeah. That’s just been my experience. If it’s that mega, mega that that is the one that just really fight you a little different. Have you seen that? I Alex (32m 12s): Don’t know. I don’t ever catch ’em that big. We, we did hook one the other day though that like dude hits it and it just stays on the bottom slowly going upstream. Head shake, head shake. And then he had a giant ball of wine he was trying to untangle. Oh. And then the fish came back towards us and the hook fell out as he was dinking with the line. So he broke my heart. That Chad (32m 32s): Kid. Yeah, those that track off slow like that dude, I wanna see ’em man, I need to see that fish. Alex (32m 38s): Yeah. And dude, it’s one of those spots that Willan moved a huge one like 12 years ago. I’ve casted that spot for 12 straight years. Never gotten a bite. And he got that bite and I’m like, you’re gonna mess that one up Chad (32m 53s): Of all of them. Yeah. Don’t mess that one up. Alex (32m 56s): And he, he fishes tan omo and he’s like, oh I caught 27 inch trout and that. Those head shakes felt really big though. I’m like, so whatever, You know, it’s like well you let me down. I just called him dead weight the rest of the time. I’m like, I don’t, I don’t need an anchor on the front of the boat. I got all the dead weight I need back there. Yeah. Chad (33m 12s): And hey and that. No, let’s be honest here. I’m not catching a crap ton of 30 inches either. I’ve had a couple of, I’ve had a couple in my boat but like that 30 inch mark isn’t it? Isn’t it kind of crazy how, I mean I know you just like me. How many 20 nines. How many? 29 and a halfs. 20 eights. But that 30 inch mark man. Two, Alex (33m 33s): I’ve seen two. Two. You know and like that’s how I know everybody’s BSing. Everyone down here. Oh I got a 30 inch today dude. If you haven’t caught 6 29 to 29 and three quarters, you ain’t caught a 30. No because I have caught personally, I’ve landed four between 29 and 29 and three quarters. Chad (33m 51s): Boom. Same. Yeah, like multiple fish. I think I’m at seven but because I live here and but Creston that 30 dude, remember the night that we went down and I got that one at the creek. Oh yeah, Alex (34m 5s): Yeah, yeah. 29 and Chad (34m 6s): A half, 29 and a half, You know, and she was the closest, like we really taped her quick and all that. Like didn’t pinch tail, she might’ve been 30 but I didn’t count her be as my 30 because it was at night And I I, it’s not even fair. I don’t even count it. I mean not beating on you got night fishing guy just saying like it, it’s obviously easier to do it with the lights off, that’s all. Yeah. It’s different. Like when we’re catching these fish during the day like that, that’s a feat man. I mean let’s be honest, these fish are nocturnal and so for us to do what we’re doing during the day is, is just really cool to be able to produce that kind of fish during the daylight hours. Alex (34m 48s): And the top end caliber obviously is is like trophy fishing. That is what you want. But the fact of the matter is if you’re coming here for a 27 20 eighter don’t bother coming man. If you can’t enjoy 22 to 25 inch fish, like dude go spend your $4,000 in Montana and not see a 22, I don’t care. You should appreciate them 22 to 25 inch fish. Those are big everywhere Chad (35m 12s): Dude. They yeah that can get a little like when you get these guys in your boat and they catch 22, 23 and all they’re doing is looking at you and going, well it ain’t 24. It’s like guys like what you do is you come, you plan a trip on an awesome brown trout fishery, you’re gonna catch some and maybe you get a giant and maybe you don’t, don’t assume because you’re coming to the white river that these fish are just jumping in the the boat. ’cause you’re, they definitely are not like we work for these fish. But you said something a minute ago, I want to go back to you were talking presentations. What do you think the main presentation difference is between up north and down here? Chad (35m 54s): Because I think this is kind of a big deal. Alex (35m 57s): I’d say that these fish see a lot of presentations. They don’t get a ton of spots to hide in. So you kind of have to feed big fish better In Michigan, those fish live miles up into wood piles and never come out. And when they’re out they can be really stupid and just rip the rod outta your hand the first thing they see ’cause they ain’t seeing a streamer in a year. You know like these fish you’re presenting to ’em a lot of times, You know they’re seeing bait being drifted at ’em. They’re, You know, they don’t have as many hiding spots. Dude, our fish can go way up in a wood pile and they can be there for 23 half an hours a day. Alex (36m 40s): They could be there for seven days and never come out. And when they come out all of a sudden they’re like, oh that’s food. Bam. Might only be out for 20 minutes Chad (36m 48s): Because they came out for a reason. Well Alex (36m 50s): The only reason they left is there wasn’t food in there for a minute. And they’ll make that mistake one time a year and you’ll never see ’em again. Ever. You might see ’em like I’ve always equated muskies and brown T trout a little different muskies. I feel like you get one chance at ’em every two years. Brown trod, I feel like you get potentially two shots at ’em a year. You get, for us up north typically like a pre-run off, there’s a spring one, let’s say pre-run off runoff, 50 degree water somewhere in there. And then there’s a fall one where you might get the shot, which is pre spawn, spawn, post spawn. I go musky fisher and the spawn. So I either see it prema or Postma, You know. Alex (37m 31s): And I think down here is probably similar. You might only get one shot at these ’cause these fish live longer than our fish. You know, if we get an extremely old fish in Michigan would be 10 years, you’re looking at six, seven, 8-year-old fish. Typically they don’t just do the winters are too hard, the summers are too hard. A lot more stress here. I know they’ve aged some at 15, 16 years. So I think when you start getting that longevity, it’s probably less frequent. They make that mistake Chad (37m 58s): Right as they get older in their, Alex (38m 0s): Yeah. So and muskies tend to be those 12 to 15-year-old fish too. Which or you know, they ain’t gonna mess up much. Chad (38m 8s): Do you find that like up north, do you not stop that fly and give big pauses and you’re a little more racing it where down here you find that you get a lot more big dead stalls? Or do you not see any difference? Alex (38m 24s): Well I’ve see people do all sorts of dumb things, but I fish it the same way everywhere Chad (38m 29s): You do. Okay. Oh Alex (38m 30s): Man, the only time I’ll go fast is keeping it up shallow, You know, and then still it’s followed up with a long pause. That’s why I’m using different lines, you know, for every situation I’m using a 30 foot type three or a 30 foot type six depending on situation, depending on river, depending on, You know, speed of current. You know like you gotta be versatile in that. And that allows you to implement those pauses. I’m a big believer, dude, brown trout naturally p prefer to feed in the drift. If you do not give ’em an opportunity to feed it on the paws, you’re gonna catch a lot less fish. It doesn’t matter where you’re, that is biological, that is something they do. Do we get more that commit suicide? Yeah. ’cause they haven’t been outta the wood pile for a month. That’s what I think I, that’s why I say like you gotta feed ’em and like, and I’d like to feed fish man, I, if I see one tracking I might miss him but I’m gonna get ’em to eat right. Alex (39m 18s): You know like usually all I gotta do is see ’em, You know there’s some, You know when they’re following five feet back and You know that it’s hard to convert that one. Chad (39m 25s): Those are looky-loos. Those aren’t gonna eat anyway guys. If you get a fish following five foot behind your fly, he’s not in play. He’s checking you out. But he’s eh, it’s hard to convert that one Alex (39m 37s): Neutral. If you see a fish coming hard or you present it right on their head and they roll on it like you should catch that fish. If you didn’t, you did something wrong. Like Elev says, let’s always say you ever miss a cheeseburger your face, you ever miss your face with a cheeseburger? Chad (39m 51s): Right? Alex (39m 52s): No. When they want to eat it, they will eat it. Chad (39m 54s): They will eat it. If they slapped it, they didn’t miss it. They meant to slap it. Alex (39m 58s): Yeah, this is, yeah. I mean I watched some kid a few years ago, fricking big fish opening his mouth coming up to eat a fly and he goes Twitch and the fish goes, Hmm not going to eat that fish had his mouth open. The next stop for that fly was down his gullet. Chad (40m 18s): All he had to do was wait Alex (40m 20s): But oh no, I gotta move it more. Oh yeah, no you didn’t. Chad (40m 23s): Okay, so here I’m gonna throw in a little thing here that I’ve kinda started playing this game where I’m fishing the fall, I’m dead drifting of these streamers. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Right. Oh yeah. Like if I’m take a, any lead headed fly and really true jigging it where I’m jerking it up into the upper water column and letting it fall down to the bottom and those fish are eating it on the drift, not on the strip. And they love that in that like if you get these lower flows where you can’t go out and throw your seven or eight inches, do not be afraid to play the two and a half, three inch dying minnow game. Chad (41m 5s): Right? Alex (41m 6s): Yeah. Whatever. Whatever it is. Especially in colder water, like naturally as the water cools forage is heading to the bottom versus to the top, as your water attempts warm prey has a tendency to escape up more. You know, you’re looking at bait fish and minnows and stuff like that. Fish are coming up to feed. But like, dude, those fish, I just, I watch it a lot. I don’t think people really understand it. ’cause I had a client years ago, we were fishing like that 35,000 year and that dude ripped it up there and this fish rolled on it and he just kept letting it sit there. It felt like an eternity. It was over five seconds and then don’t. Alex (41m 47s): And I’m like, why did you wait that long? And he’s like, ’cause I was watching the fish drift back with it, staring at it until it grabbed it. Then I hit it. Chad (41m 58s): Whoa. Okay. Wow. And I Alex (41m 59s): Was like, whoa. And that’s 35 grand. That was a fish that pulled off the bank, boiled on the fly and just sat behind it. Sat behind it, sat behind it, sat behind it, sat behind it until it was like, yep. And you start thinking about it and you’re like, eh. And I’ve watched him do the same thing on dry eyes, You know, like I got this one client who’s like six four, he’s standing up in the front of the drift boat and this fish had been rising right here and he guns it out there. And I’m like, what in the hell is he letting it drift that far down? He’s like, I watched it the whole way swimming downstream, looking at that dry fly, looking at that dry fly. Okay. And it’s like, You know, and that’s a pressured fish thing too, you know, it’s like, woo, no, don’t do that now you don’t know if that’s real yet. Alex (42m 43s): Well body Chad (42m 44s): Language is everything. Right? Oh, that’s right. Alex (42m 45s): Watch their behavior. Chad (42m 46s): Watch their behavior. I’ll never forget. So here’s a great example. So me and you and Sammy were over on the little red I Alex (42m 54s): Remember Chad (42m 55s): And Sammy’s not the greatest. He was learning to fly fish. And so he throws out and he drags back a 21 with him that’s just following his fly. And Alex goes, put it back on him, put it back on him, he wants it. Well Sammy wasn’t fishy enough, right? So he wasn’t getting it on him. Alex takes out of the front of the boat, jams his rod down in the water, starts doing a figure eight out of the front of the boat, the dang fish swims under my ore under my boat and crushes Alex’s fly. And it was just simply, you were able to read his body language to go, no, this fish is fired up. Chad (43m 39s): He wants to eat. So like pay attention to what your fish are telling you what they want. If you go on right now, and look on my Facebook page at CJ’s White River Outfitters, scroll back into, and there is a video where I catch this big 27 inch fish and you see me like there’s music behind it, so you can’t hear what I’m saying. But you’ll see me cast over to the bank and I rip it off and I see him come at it, but he’s coming at it at the tail and he doesn’t quite finish it out. And I’m just like, oh, he wants it, but he wants it head first. And so I throw my fly over onto the bank, I feed line into the Kern and I rip it off the bank sends it down headfirst and boom, as soon as it gets to it, he just crushes it. Chad (44m 27s): Because if you watch ’em, they’ll tell you what they want, what they want. You just have to see it enough to know what it means. And this travels over to all fish. Like pay attention to what their body language is telling you. And Alex (44m 45s): The first rule on that is learn how to see the fish and look behind your fly. Don’t just stare at your fly dancing around. Try to pick up on it as early as you can. Chad (44m 54s): Yes. Don’t get drunk on your fly to the point that you’re not paying attention to what’s happening around it. Right? Alex (44m 59s): Yeah. And if those fish are following deep, You know, probably ought to have weight on your fly. Chad (45m 3s): Yep. Ought to be getting a little deeper. Alex (45m 4s): Yeah. You wanna feed ’em. And even if you’re not getting to their level, the fact that you can stall a fly and it can go towards the fish, there’s a better chance he’ll just lift up, eat it versus being like, okay, I’m coming up to get it. It’s like, no, it’s coming toward, oh now’s now’s my shot. Chad (45m 20s): Yeah. At that point they’ve got to decide how much energy they’re gonna expand. They gotta decide how hard they’re gonna push this. So if it’s too far, they’re gonna go, well I’ll get a better shot later. Alex (45m 31s): I mean it’s, and everybody wants to catch ’em on that fly dancing around looking all pretty. But dude, you’ll die trying to make fish. Do what you want them to do. You’ll get your windows. But if you just fish the way you should fish, you will catch so many more fish. Chad (45m 47s): Right. I’ve been telling the guys, even with fly choices, like we’ll go through a couple hours where we’re not seeing anything and they’ll go, okay we, we need to change and you wanna change to some crazy orange and black or purple or pink or some crazy thing. And it’s like, guys, when the window opens up, you wanna have the right bugs on. Let’s not get too crazy here. Like, Alex (46m 11s): You know, a lot of times you switch through to find those initially and if it’s a light penetration, a water clarity thing and that’s not changing or it’s more stable throughout the day, you don’t have a ton of other variables other than fish activity. So it’s like if you have that color that’s working and your light conditions and your watercolor isn’t changing much, it’s okay, maybe they’re just not on, don’t take it off if one guy wants to play around. But you always have one guy running that thing that was working Chad (46m 38s): Always right. Because you’ve patterned it over the last five days and You know that 70% of the fish you’ve caught have been on X. And so it’s like, no, I’m gonna have X on. But we can play with that color back there. Sure, sure. Yeah. Just to see if potentially it’s a color. But we know, I mean obviously colors matter. Alex (47m 1s): Yeah. About five of Chad (47m 3s): ’em. That’s right. Let’s be honest. I mean we, we could kind of very easily go through ’em and you’ve gotta have something black and gotta have something olive of them white. You gotta have something yellow and something, I don’t care if it’s yellow and brown yellow and olive of yellow and but yellow and something, Alex (47m 19s): Some sort of tan ginger thing. Chad (47m 21s): Some sort of in that tan or ginger class. Alex (47m 25s): And that’s about it. Chad (47m 26s): That’s really, I mean Alex (47m 27s): You get about two days a year where it’s like, like, oh my goodness, chart truce is actually catching them and that’s fun. Chad (47m 33s): Or even our olive and blacks and stuff, I tie a lot of sgo SLS in olive them black. And it’s like that’s a, that’s a 10 percenter. Like he doesn’t, he gets brought out 10% of the time. Alex (47m 46s): Chartreuse and white is like that to me. You know where it’s like, eh, a Chad (47m 49s): Couple, yeah, they’re sitting in the bucket going, put me in coach, put me in coach. I’m like, eh, you kind of dropped the ball a lot. Alex (47m 55s): And there’s like, dude, I remember I had a week, like this was like five years ago, I had like a week or 10 day period where all I could get bid on was cotton candy. I don’t know that I’ve caught a damn thing on it since I had like a week where it was like, oh my God, they are killing this thing. I tied a bunch of ’em, they just sit in my box rotting now I tried it and it’s like, Chad (48m 18s): And it just, whatever it was for that given week that given light that given. Yep. Alex (48m 23s): So I carry all of ’em, but I got five that like, You know, that’s, oh yeah, we’re gonna do this, this, this, this and this. If we can’t catch ’em on this, we can get creative. And then you usually just find out they’re not Chad (48m 34s): Biting. That’s what I, they say normally. And if they’re not biting one of those four or five, then they’re just not eating. And there’s Alex (48m 39s): Times you can look in the water and be like, Ooh, water’s green today. Yeah, try sharp shoes. You know, like that. Yeah. Chad (48m 45s): There are things like the last week it got muddy. I was using black pushers, You know? Alex (48m 50s): Yeah, exactly. And, and like sometimes when I used to, You know, I, man, I don’t, I ain’t out on that river much past three 30 anymore. But some days like I used to like be out there till like low light sunset ish. And I noticed both straight yellow works pretty good in this condition. Chad (49m 6s): Right. Alex (49m 7s): You Chad (49m 7s): Know? Yep. And that evening light, oh yeah, low this Alex (49m 10s): Time of year. Oh yeah. Yep, yep, yep. Straight yellow. Chad (49m 12s): And I mean, let’s be honest, I mean when it really boils down to it, it’s, it’s very hard to beat all of them white. All of them white as a general rule. And that is, that has kind of been across the board for me. I don’t know about you, but like, it doesn’t matter if I’m, what I’m fishing for, like, I mean literally from, Alex (49m 31s): I fish a lot of ultra clear water and when I’m fishing ultra clear, I kind of dull down my white. So there’s a little, and it’s a little more like gray or Sure. Dulled down, You know, just not as, not bright. But I, you guys have that stocked rainbow trout thing, which is, You know, that’s a major deal here. And a lot of what I’m fishing is more like natural environments with like, just, yeah, Chad (49m 52s): Because let’s be honest, cotton candy, when we’re tying those as rainbows, those aren’t rainbow colors and Alex (49m 57s): It’s just bright. Chad (49m 57s): Yeah. It’s just bright. It’s not truly a rainbow color. Alex (50m 1s): No. It’s just, but sometimes that, I don’t know if it’s that blue. I mean there’s steelhead rivers in Michigan where it’s that blue color egg just crushes ’em and it’s like one river or that blueish egg is just dominant. Yeah. So I don’t know what’s in, you know, there’s obviously something in the water or in the environment that makes that blue look a little different. Chad (50m 21s): It does. Like I use blue and it, when the one that I think that like my gray and white Big Johnson is much more rainbow ish than my, like a cotton candy would be. ’cause you, you’ve got those dulled down grays and blues with a little creamy white belly. That’s really more true to the, more true to the rainbows here. Which, Alex (50m 46s): But olive and white. Yeah, olive and white’s a standard. And it, it’s, it’s weird ’cause it does seem like I’ve seen a difference between the white tails and the olive tails, which I’ll never understand. But I see it. There Chad (50m 56s): Is a difference. Yeah. It’s kind Alex (50m 57s): Of crazy. It’s, I gotta have both. But like is, you know, I work a lot with Jay and I mean, I don’t even need to text him. It’s like, what you getting him on? Olive white, olive white, olive white. Like when he says something else, I’m like, oh my God, what Chad (51m 13s): Happened? Oh my God. He changed, Alex (51m 16s): He catches a ton of fish. Chad (51m 17s): So, well, because there, I mean olive white is so consistent, but it has, like I say, it’s been true for me in a lot of places. I mean like, even when I go over and fish for stripers in Oklahoma, it’s freaking all of them white. You know? It’s a min. Alex (51m 30s): Yeah. Yeah. And we see the same stuff. I, I have a tendency to, I’ve really shifted into more, You know, like I said with the fishing pressure back in Michigan where I’m doing a lot more natural type stuff, You know, where it’s like a lot more, You know, worms, sculpting, crayfish, whatever, You know something. But when I was running bait fish stuff, it was olive and yellow, olive and white. And I was like, yeah, I mean you can do whatever you want but oh man. Chad (51m 55s): But have somebody out of the boat throwing this. Somebody makes, and Alex (51m 59s): I do, I will say like on more of a sunny day, I have a tendency to go to more olive and white on overcast days I do more olive and yellow. You know, it depends on what the water looks like as well. But man, that seems to be a consistent trend for me. Yeah. I don’t dunno. Chad (52m 14s): Yeah. We won’t give ’em, we won’t give ’em all our secrets. Yeah, Alex (52m 18s): Whatever. There are no secrets. Chad (52m 20s): No, just get out and work hard man. What you need to know if you’re gonna be a streamer, fisherman or a trophy hunting is you’re not gonna catch a ton of fish. But the ones you’re gonna catch are gonna be awesome. I mean that’s just kind of the game, right? If you want to catch a bunch of fish, you need to get outta streamer fishing. ’cause that’s not really, it’s not really a thing. Why Alex (52m 39s): Do you fish? Do you fish just to catch fish or do you try to catch fish the way you wanna catch fish? I try to catch fish the way I wanna catch fish. And I think once you’ve caught enough you can get to that point. Like, I mean I get it. I take some dudes n infant every year they’re in their seventies, eighties and it’s like, look man, guys who just wanna get out and get their string stretched, that’s fine. And like at 70 or 80 maybe that’s all I’ll feel able to do. But like while I can do it, I’m gonna go throw pounder rubber baits from muskies. I’m gonna gun 90 feet on a nine weight with a 10 inch fly and hope for the best. I’m gonna do all the stuff that’s hard and try to get the most out of my fish. Alex (53m 19s): Dude, I don’t frankly care if I catch another 17 inch round streamer or a 20 inch r plus. I got a little six weight and a tiny streamer on when you’re starting picking up eight, nine weight rods and big flies. Like you just deal with it man. It’s, you’re doing what you wanna do. You’re trying to get something special fine. Like, and as an angler, the more you fish, the more you evolve into that kind of way where it’s like, no, I’ll do it my way. I’ll throw in a dry and catch a smaller fish. That’s fine. That’s fun. You’re matching your tackle to the, to what you’re trying to catch. Chad (53m 50s): Right? You got a 17 or 20 entry, you go freaking dry fly with a five. No Alex (53m 55s): It’s great fun dude. On a five weight and a dry little five x and a nip whatever man, that’s fun. Technical. If you can cite nip one and see one laying up, like that’s hard. That’s great. But like when you’re trying to do this, like, it’s like okay let’s, so I’m gonna fish the way I wanna fish. I don’t, Chad (54m 13s): And we don’t have to catch a billion fish. Really? Like, I mean what’s the, I mean, not knocking it at all, people like catching numbers. That’s great. Do your thing. We want everybody to have fun and be happy. This is definitely, I would say, You know, we’re a pretty small percentage of the fishing world. Us fly fishermen in the grand scheme of things. But Alex (54m 34s): We’re just like the big glide bait fishermen for bass. There’s due to swear button like dude, I ain’t ever wiggling a stupid drop shot again. And I don’t blame ’em ’cause I guide people taking drop shot doing drop shot fishing. I don’t care if I ever catch a fish on a drop shot again. No. Chad (54m 49s): It gets to the point where we want to caliber fish something that we we’re like gonna remember something we’re gonna hang up on our wall. Something that that, You know, we, we tried this fly in four different places and we finally like found the scenario it worked in and we caught this giant, well like things like that are more memorable for me than like going to the river and putting 30 fish in the boat. Like that’s not gonna be memorable for me. That’s just gonna be another day of fishing, that kind of thing. But if I’m out tr hunting that trophy and I’ve grinded and I’ve put in eight hours for that one bite, I don’t know why. It’s just a difference in people and places. Chad (55m 31s): But I’m gonna feel more satisfied. I’m gonna feel like I’ve actually accomplished something. It’s Alex (55m 37s): About technique. Yeah. And it’s about, You know, like one of my most memorable days, small mouth fishing. Last year I was throwing huddle stents and for small mouth and they were like the 68 specials, which are like, You know, it’s a six inch bait with a eight inch paddle tail. And I mean, I didn’t catch a fish but I was throwing it up against five foot shallow wood and I was watching these small mouth peel out of there and bash it. And I so clearly remember watching those fish do that, I didn’t catch any of them. ’cause that small mouth doesn’t eat that huddleston deep enough to get that one single hook. So I’ve been playing in my head hamma, rigged the treble on the back now this year. But like it was, because it was a different technique, it was new and I was seeing something, a behavior I’d never seen before. Alex (56m 20s): And that to me meant a lot. You know? So it’s like, that’s what I’m going for, You know, something neat that I think is different that it’s just, I don’t know. But dude, I’ve been fishing 200 days a year for a long time, so I can be a little more selective. Chad (56m 39s): Yeah. So how many years have you been doing this, Alex? When did you start? Alex (56m 44s): I started at 21 and I took a few year hiatus, tried to be married and have a job that was both, both having the job and being male married, were complete failures. So I spent about four years pretending to do that and then started guiding again. So I I, You know, I don’t know, 20 something year, 2021, whatever, fished a lot in between, you know, those four years to pretend life. And then, You know, really hard. It’s been, the first few years were like summer jobs in college where it was like, do your 70, 80 trips, You know, whatever. And then like, You know, 15, 16 years really, really hard. Yeah. Chad (57m 22s): We’re, we’re about the same. I, I moved up 20 years ago, but I had, this year it’ll be 20 years, but I had, I had a couple years in the shop and then, then the first year was just guiding kids on dry run and things like that. So yeah. And Alex (57m 36s): I was doing that stuff at, like, I started working at Gates Lodge when I was 15 for the summers. So I, I was staying up there at the owner’s house and working the fly shop, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, you know, like getting, you know, doing the shop time. Chad (57m 50s): Okay. So when did you pick up fly fishing? Alex (57m 53s): 14. Chad (57m 54s): I, So yeah, see you got so many more years on me. Like when I was 14 I was in Mississippi hoop netting and trot line and catfish, You know what I mean? Well it Alex (58m 3s): Started like, dude, we were like trust, we were like way I would ride my bike to fish small mouth on the river with a spinning rod. And then like one time this dude had a fly. I’m like, I wanna learn how to do that. And then I had two friends that were juniors when I was a freshman in high school and they had a driver’s license and that’s when I kind of started fishing with them. I’ve been like 14, 15 years old. One of ’em has been guiding in Montana for like 25 years. He’s an author, he is written a bunch of books. He’s really good writer. And so like, we kind all started doing that stuff together, like at 15, like trespassing on golf course ponds, throwing muddler in the morning, getting kicked out, being like, dude, I’m Nick Popoff. Alex (58m 44s): And they’re like, dude, no, I know who Nick Popoff is. It’s like, we gotta go parking in some dudes across the street, trespassing through lawn to fish these ponds. Like, I mean we were just all sorts of crap going before school and stuff. And then they, when they graduated, they got outta high school like a couple weeks before me and like for some reason my mom let me go, but she’s like, oh yeah, go fish with them for the night. We’d drive the two hours up to Grayling to fish. It was like two and a half back then and I’d be showing we’d fish the evening rise and I’d be showing up at like one o’clock after sleeping in the car and then going to school the next day. I mean, it was a disaster. Chad (59m 17s): Yeah. But it also like made you the fishy guy you are today. I mean, because let’s be honest, you’re not jumping in this game and being in it a year and being some fishy guy. Like, I mean, it, it takes some years to build your fishy. I I even remember when I first got up here and started and all, I’d go out with Ben Levin. Alex (59m 37s): Dude, that guy’s a problem. Oh Chad (59m 39s): Yeah, I know. Alex (59m 40s): He’s a problem. That’s one of the, there’s like a handful of dudes. I’m like, ah, he’s gonna whip me today. Yeah. He pulls something out every time and it’s like, dude, that kid’s just got Chad (59m 48s): It. He’s so fishy, dude. He really is. Alex (59m 51s): But he’s been doing it since that 1415 with Dwayne. Chad (59m 54s): And he was, he was on the US fly youth fly fishing team and that’s Alex (59m 60s): All junk them guys. All they do now is check n infant tournament fish. Ben is a fisherman. Chad (1h 0m 4s): Oh yeah. But I mean he started that young, like seriously in it he was rowing a boat for Dwayne Smallmouth guiding at 15. Yeah. Alex (1h 0m 13s): But dude, that kid, ’cause like, I remember having like tough days with him and he is like, oh yeah, well I tried this on this bank, You know, we got a few. And I’m like, Of course you did. Chad (1h 0m 21s): Oh yeah. He’ll always pull some rabbit out of his as it Well, I mean, just last week we were coming through a spot and I I it was low water muddy. We shouldn’t have been getting them. I grabbed a 24 out of this little hole, right? And here comes Ben up the river and he literally, he drops in and he goes down the same lane I’ve been fishing, not, not, you know, he had no clue and went right through the lane and pulled a 28 right in front of me out of the same hole. I just pulled a 24 out of like, you know, it’s just, he’s always gonna just come up on your butt and just kick your butt every Alex (1h 0m 57s): Time. I remember having like terrible water one time and I was behind him or he was behind me going into ranch hat or something, and he got in those boulders and just pulled some two footer out. Like, I was like, really? We didn’t see anything all day. He’s like, well we didn’t really either, but we got this one. And I remember having tough days with him and he is like, oh, I just put on a little black leach and we got a couple. And I’m like, are you kidding me? Chad (1h 1m 17s): Yeah. And it’s the most weird random Oh, random. That’s Yep. But he’s just, he’s just a fishing Alex (1h 1m 23s): Dude. Oh yeah. You know, but the new guys like, dude, the new guys, there are so many dudes who’ve caught one fish and they’re like, yeah man, I’m a big deal. Chad (1h 1m 32s): Oh, I got it figured out. Alex (1h 1m 33s): Well, and dude, and I have problems with these people. Like there’s this whole thing where like this one kid fishes around like, or adult, whoever it happens to be, and they have like 40 guys in a club and they’re better than the 40 guys. I’m like, dude, that doesn’t mean you’re good. That doesn’t mean that like you’re good because you’re better than these 40 who are all terrible. Like when you start fishing with people that know, like there’s a reason I fish with like five dudes. I fish with like five people at most. And one of ’em, my little film buddies not real good, but he takes abuse and he takes the verbal abuse and You know, I teach him some things. And so that’s kind of fun. Alex (1h 2m 14s): But like you, you kind of find these guys you can fish with that are similar at the same level and it’s like, that’s who you grow and you advance with. Like, Russ and I fish and talk and like, we fish together for over 20 years and it’s like we’ve just written off stuff that dudes think they’re doing that are cutting edge. And we’re like, no, that doesn’t work because of this. We already tried that five years ago. Chad (1h 2m 34s): Yeah, right. There are a lot of people and, and it’s, I get it somewhat, but there’s a lot of kids coming in trying to reinvent the wheel. Alex (1h 2m 42s): Well, and the what happened was, is it never used to be that way because there were controls on like who became guides. It was people who got in with the fly shop, got to know somebody, You know, it was like, okay, here you graduated by doing this, this and this to be a guide. Now it’s like, daddy bought me a boat, now I’m good to go. I’m a guide. I caught look what I caught last year. And it’s like that, that doesn’t mean anything. Like there used to be steps like, You know, you do what you did when you start a guide. Like you’re in the shop, you’re doing like wade fishing instructional, Chad (1h 3m 12s): Then you do an Alaska stent. Alex (1h 3m 14s): You maybe I never did. I did. Yeah, I know. But, but that’s what it is. Like Chad (1h 3m 17s): That’s the way progression. Yeah. Alex (1h 3m 19s): Right. Yeah. And then like, I used to tie production in the winters and I used to do this and like, and then all of a sudden, by the time I hit 21, it was like, all right dude, let’s get you in a boat. Chad (1h 3m 28s): Yeah. Now you’re fishy, You know, you know enough above and beyond the other people that are gonna get in your boat that now you can teach Alex (1h 3m 36s): You. And I’ve seen you in the shop with customers, I’ve seen you with clients. I see how you interact your social, you’re Well, I was gonna say you’re not drunk all the time, but I kind of was in my twenties, but like, Chad (1h 3m 47s): It’s a little different now anyway. Alex (1h 3m 49s): Yeah. But like, You know, I might have been drunk a lot in the twenties, but like you could, You know, at least there was a little value brought to the table, not just like, Hey dude, yeah, I’d like to do this. And I got a boat. It’s like, cool, good for you. I got a knife. Does that mean I’m a surgeon? Chad (1h 4m 5s): Yeah. No, I have the guys coming to me going, Hey, I want a guide. And I’m like, do you have a boat? And they’re like, well no. And I was like, well, have you learned the river? Well, I, I was going to. And I’m like, guys, like you need to, you have gotta go to school, so to speak before you come and try to get a job. Like why would you be able to come into this job with no knowledge? Like, this isn’t an on the job training here, you have got to know this before you step on your boat. Alex (1h 4m 35s): No, this is not some apprenticeship to be a plumber. Like your apprenticeship in this is not getting paid and living outta your vehicle being broke. Chad (1h 4m 43s): Yeah. Fishing every single day until you figure it out enough that you go, okay, now I can get started. Right. Alex (1h 4m 52s): And now they just, whatever. Chad (1h 4m 54s): Yeah. So let’s click back. We’re, we’re gonna wrap up here in a few minutes, but let me ask you one, one more question on the deal. So I get this question a lot. What’s the number one thing you see customers doing wrong in your Alex (1h 5m 9s): Boat? Can’t cast good enough. Spend $3,000 on a trip to go fishing. Didn’t spend a hundred bucks on a casting lesson, dude, get your double hall dolled in. Be able to hit spots, be able to do all of that stuff. If you are not casting a straight tight line, you are not fishing a streamer. Chad (1h 5m 26s): Okay. And learn your backhand, right? Because we don’t want you throwing those seven inch flies over our heads either. Alex (1h 5m 32s): If you can cast that shouldn’t be an issue either. Chad (1h 5m 34s): True enough. Alex (1h 5m 35s): But, but down here you deal with when I like to throw big stuff, dude, spend a hundred bucks, get on the lawn practice. I had a girl this year who was like, yeah, well I’ve been practicing lawn, You know, I don’t take many new people. I’ve never, I’ve never taken her. She’s like, well, I’ve been practicing. And I’m like, all right, let’s see. You know, she’s like, well, I like this 7 11, 7 weight, you know, bass St. Croix, mojo bass rod. I’m like, all right, let’s, let’s see what you got. I’m like, okay. So I’m like thinking in my head, I’m like, I don’t know. I don’t like the short rod, I don’t like this. I’m gonna start her on a bank where she’s casting over the motor. You know, dude, she picked that thing up and was lasers and I’m like, oh, we can do whatever we want now. Alex (1h 6m 20s): I mean, five minutes in. She’s like, yeah, I’ve really been working on it. I fish a lot in the lakes. I’ve been throwing this thing. And I’m like, I mean darts. And I’m like, oh yeah, here, here’s an eight weight. Why don’t you try that perfect double hall darts 60 all day 70. All like, I was like, you don’t see that? And when I got, I was like, no, she has been practicing, she has been on the lake fishing. She’s from Oklahoma. I’m like, well, there’s gonna be wind here. She’s like, I’m from Oklahoma. The wind always blows. Yes. You know, so, and it was one of the coolest experiences she was with. We kind of jumped around. She was, so this was the first guide trip she’s ever done. Alex (1h 6m 60s): She was so dialed in. She caught some really nice fish. And it was just like, you just don’t see that. Chad (1h 7m 5s): Yeah. I wish, yeah, I I, I get customers jumping in my boat and I go to rig the rods and I go, Hey, what’s lines on this? And they go, oh, I don’t know, whatever you put on it last year. Alex (1h 7m 15s): Oh yeah, no, no, no. That’s right. That’s, that’s what you get. You with your guide trip. You get your free leader for the year. Chad (1h 7m 19s): Yeah. Yeah. I mean guys, you can’t pull this game off doing that. Well you, Alex (1h 7m 24s): I mean, you can do it all you want and you can donate, but just don’t ever expect any different results than what you’ve gotten the year before. Like don’t ever, if you are not willing to put, it’s like going to play Pebble Beach and you hit golf balls once a year. Yeah. Probably not gonna get better. Chad (1h 7m 38s): No, I mean, you’re going to play in the Super Bowl and you hadn’t touched a football all year, You know, whatever. It’s the same. It’s the same thing. And so why they think they can get away with it is beyond me. Alex (1h 7m 49s): I know. And it’s as simple as like, do you have some sort of large grass field? Do you have a floating line for your rod? Learn how to cast that 70 feet with a good clean double haul with your line landing straight. And then when you pick up a sink temp, oh, it’s gonna be a lot easier. Chad (1h 8m 6s): Oh dude, even me, You know, all spring and, and summer I go to the park and I throw out hula hoops and I cast, Alex (1h 8m 13s): Oh dude, when I go salt water fishing, it’s like throwing metal plates out, positioning myself 50, 30, 80 different directions in wind. So I’m fighting it from different angles. And dude, it is not that hard. But you do have to spend some time, it’s muscle memory. Develop it, you will not lose it. We Chad (1h 8m 32s): We’re pros and we practice. I have people look at me and go, why are you practicing? I’m like, guys, I don’t ever get to cast. I’m rowing all the time. Like I’ve gotta create muscle memory just like you do. Just ’cause I know the right technique. I’ve gotta create muscle memory. Alex (1h 8m 47s): Dude, I had one of the better casters. I take fishing the other day and we’re throwing like tree fittings and 10 inch stuff and like Jay hopped in the back. We kind of took turns ’cause I think I had, I think I had both a broken truck and boat that day. So we were in Jay’s boat and truck. It’s been a, it’s been a running theme this winter down here in Arkansas. And he is a phenomenal caster. He does the permit thing, he does everything. And he was watching us gun that 10, 10 and a half inch fly 80 all day. And he’s like, oh God, you guys, Chad (1h 9m 18s): You dang Michigan guys. What’s wrong with y’all? Alex (1h 9m 21s): He, he is an awesome caster. Like, dude, he is a dagger. But it’s like, okay, it’s gonna feel different now. It’s a three 50, it’s 10 inches, it’s line speed generating it. It’s 10 feet on the back, 10 foot on the forward, another 10 foot shot out the back and wherever I want it. And if you don’t think you can do it, go get in a boat with a tarping guide. He will yell at you till you understand it. Chad (1h 9m 42s): Yeah. Yeah. Alex (1h 9m 42s): It’s 10 in the back, 10 in the forward, 10 in the back. No, put it 70 55, 84. Chad (1h 9m 49s): If you’re not shooting line on your back cast and double hauling. You’re not fishing streamers. Well, Alex (1h 9m 54s): No, and the thing is, is like in Michigan, everybody’s so jaded. ’cause we fish these little stupid rivers, which it’s like you kind of flop it out there and you can catch fish. You know, you can do a crappy hook set with your rod tip. ’cause you got 25 feet of line out. It’s like, dude, that’s fine in that. But when you actually go somewhere, you actually have to fish and actually have to cast. It’s like Uhuh. Oh no, no, no, no, no. Chad (1h 10m 15s): Under the treetop, over the log around the rock. And if you’re not focused and engaged and like, dude, Alex (1h 10m 23s): You should be seeing your spot from 50 feet away. You should be halfway through your presentation going, that’s gonna be my hole into that pocket. Especially in high water here, man. Yep. And it’s like, okay, finish off my presentation. Yep. It’s, I have to come. Okay. I’m gonna have to back in because in order for me to hit that pocket correctly, I have to be downstream of that spot because that tree’s overhanging. Yep. Chad (1h 10m 45s): And you’ve got and engaged in everyone. I mean, you’ll make 500 casts and you didn’t get a fish. What makes you think you’re gonna get a fish on 501? But you have still got to be engaged and ready because not, Alex (1h 10m 56s): And you have to present it back correctly every time to note if there was something, when you get lazy and just kind of go through, you’re just robot fishing, ba ba ba Chad (1h 11m 5s): Raking. Doesn’t work. No at all, dude, if you’re just throwing out and raking it back in, that’s, that’s not, you have to fish your flaws. Alex (1h 11m 12s): That’s zombie fishing. Yes. Zombie fishing does not pay. You have to actively fish. You have to see, oh wow, there’s a big rock in the middle of my presentation. What am I gonna do? Well, I’m gonna make sure it’s deep enough that it go, gonna show it to that dark spot on that rock on the boat side of it. Pause it, wiggle, wiggle, pop stall, pull it away, pull it away, pull it away. Pause, pause, pause, pause. Okay. Nothing there. Next Chad (1h 11m 34s): Spot. Right? But fishing that spot, not just seeing a rock there and going, yeah, I threw over it, I fished it. No, you didn’t fish it, you threw over it. Alex (1h 11m 44s): You fished the rock. You didn’t fish where the fish was. You did a great, if that rock was gonna bite, he’d a bit it. ’cause and that’s one big thing down here versus Michigan too, is like, dude, a lot of times I’m throwing it wood in a foot of water. Well bang f they see it like, dude, here you’re like setting stuff up five to 10 feet upstream of the target range. You know, where it’s like, no, if I have to come down four foot deep, 10 feet above this, and then it’s gonna be about right where I want it. And a lot of times it’s that first pop in that dark spot. Chad (1h 12m 15s): This is where I tell these guys don’t get out there playing checkers when we’re out there playing chess. Like if you’re just going down the river raking at the banks and you’re wondering why you’re not catching them on the White River or any other river, that’s it. Because you’re just going down raking the banks. And that’s, that’s not what we are doing. Alex (1h 12m 33s): Go for it. Have fun. You’re a donator. Chad (1h 12m 36s): All right. Well hey Alex, this has been good. We’re fixing to get close to wrapping up. I would, like, I said something before, but I’m, I’m gonna pressure you here a little bit. Go ahead and give us like your, your name and your, like your YouTube page and all that. Like go ahead. Alex (1h 12m 53s): And so what I’ve kind of been focused on is like really doing YouTube stuff lately, which is just Alex lgu fishing. It’s been pretty focused on fly fishing, 95% of it. I’m trying to do a video a week, which kind of fall behind here. But it’s, it, it’s been interesting ’cause I’ve really tried to push the educational side of it and trying to teach people, whether it’s tie in or phishing, how to improve. Not just the, oh, here, highlight video, look at me, look what I caught. I don’t know that that adds very much value to anybody. So that’s kinda what I’ve been focused on. I’m trying to kind of push and grow. That website is al fly fishing dot com, You know, whatever. Alex (1h 13m 34s): It’s basically a brochure on the internet at this point. I’m putting all my effort into the YouTube stuff, so it’s fun. I appreciate it. It’s, it’s kind of cool. Check it out. There’s some stuff from the white bunch of stuff from Michigan, little bit of gear fishing for muskies and small mouth, but You know, whatever. Just kinda, that’s been my mo main focus only so many good fishing days out there that I’m kinda Chad (1h 13m 58s): Okay. Well if the, if somebody wanted to go small mouth or trout fishing and you were, they were lucky enough that you did take a new customer, how would they Alex (1h 14m 6s): Oh, I do all the time. Chad (1h 14m 7s): How would they get in touch with you? Through that website? Alex (1h 14m 10s): Yeah, just Alex at al fly fishing dot com. I, I do do that a lot. I take a bunch of guys out fishing new guys every year. A lot of the trout stuff, like the Arkansas stuff is basically booked a year out in advance. But there’s stuff in Michigan still that’s, I don’t know, man. Michigan’s cool. It’s different. And the people who have come up there from down south are like, wow, this is really neat. Chad (1h 14m 33s): It’s such a different fisher. Alex (1h 14m 34s): You’ve seen it. Yeah. It’s Chad (1h 14m 36s): Such a different Alex (1h 14m 36s): Fisher. They’re just like a little natural aquarium man. It’s a big spring creek that you can float down, you can throw dry, you catch wild bi trout and, and there’s some nice browns. And that’s just a totally different feel to it, man. It’s, I really have started to appreciate, like, I love the trophy hunt thing and I do it for a few months and then, then I do it in Michigan for a while too. And then when that window kind of closes, like, I’m like, dude, I just wanna go catch, try to catch some 12 fourteeners on little five weight and a little twitch bug or a little streamer, a hop or whatever. Like no pressure. Get there early fish for three, four hours. Get outta there, go take a nap, man. Chad (1h 15m 9s): There’s not that guide pressure of, I’ve gotta hunt this big one today. And it’s just, it’s actually a pretty nice season to not have that Alex (1h 15m 17s): Pressure. I don’t know why I did it to myself, but like between like, oh chase big brown trout, and I’m like, ah, You know what else? I really want to get into something worse. Musky fishing. And now I’m like, something harder. Yeah, this is great. You see one in a day and you’re like, dude, that’s a good day. And they’re like, huh? I’m like, oh, that’s a really good day. We, we just don’t see anything. Chad (1h 15m 37s): It usually doesn’t work. Alex (1h 15m 39s): So I’m just grinding my teeth all day until something happens and it’s like, oh God. Oh God. Oh God. Oh god. Yeah. So I’m real smart, but I, I get a kick out of it. It’s adrenaline. It’s the big bait, it’s the big fish. It’s the trophy hunt. You know it. Chad (1h 15m 52s): Yeah. Well, I’ll, I’m gonna tell a little gig here, eight right before we get out, I hope it’s not too harsh on Alex, Alex, one time I have this customer come back to me and he goes, man, I don’t know man. I’m thinking I might wanna go out with somebody else. Said Alex, he’s busting my butt. And I went, oh, he is busting your butt, huh? I said, let me ask you something. When you got here, were you fishing good? And he goes, oh no man, I was doing so bad. I was doing this and this and this. And I go, okay, and now you’re doing like, way better. He goes, oh man, I’m, I’m doing so much better. I was like, okay. So what you’re telling me is you learned more in the boat with Alex in the last two days than you have in the last 10 doing it by yourself. Chad (1h 16m 35s): And he stops and goes, oh, you know, I didn’t, no, You know what? I wanna keep Alex, what I’m getting by, by telling that story guys, is like, Alex is really, really good at teaching the streamer game. Alex (1h 16m 51s): Might not be the most subtle person, might not mask my feelings as well as others. Chad (1h 16m 59s): Yeah. Don’t come with your feelings on your sleeves. Alex (1h 17m 1s): You know the feelings. I don’t even remember ever having those at this point in my life. So I, I just expect nobody has those at this point either. So don’t mind me, I’m just, You know, pretty Chad (1h 17m 12s): Straightforward. But you will not regret it. So if you guys get around, y’all are somewhere around Travis, Michigan, man, hit Alex up, take you guys out and teach you something. As far as us hearing the Ozarks. You guys can in touch with me through CJ’s White River Outfitter. I know now Dali’s Fly Shop is closed down and so I will be taking on a lot of those bookings. You can just call and book straight with me. I’m still using the same group of guides and we’ll get you guys set up. I also have a CJ’s Crooked Hideaway over on Crooked Creek that I rent out. Chad (1h 17m 53s): It’s right on the creek with a great view, little cabin. So think about that when you’re coming to the area. It’s five minutes from the Cotter boat ramp. And we appreciate you guys listening to us just right here. Before you go, you guys do me a favor. Go be nice to somebody. If you guys see somebody on the side of the river and they’re casting like crap or they’re not catching anything, don’t freaking point at ’em and laugh at ’em. Go over and give them a fly, give them a tip. Don’t be a butt hole. Go try to be nice to somebody on your watershed today. Alex (1h 18m 26s): I think that’s for me. Chad (1h 18m 32s): We appreciate you guys listening, man. We’re gonna come in, we’re gonna do one a month. We’re gonna talk all kinds of trophy hunting. You guys stick with us. We’ll do a couple episodes where we sit and geek out on flies and different things, and I’ll have some pretty interesting guests for you. See you guys stay tuned and we appreciate all your listeners. Outro (1h 18m 52s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly, swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing.com.