734 | The Bycatch Crisis with Adam Cuthriell: How Trawlers are Killing Alaska’s Wild Salmon

Dave (2s): Have you ever eaten a frozen fish stick? How about a fillet-o-fish from McDonald’s? Did you know that most of the fish in those products come from ocean trawlers who are heavily impacting wild salmon species, sharks and many other wild creatures in the ocean? And today their impacts have gotten so bad that we are seeing closures of Chinook salmon fishing in Alaska right now. Today you’re gonna find out what you can do to assure these iconic salmon species do not go extinct in Alaska and beyond. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast, where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that trip And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Hey, how’s it going? I’m Dave host of the Wet Fly Swing podcast. Dave (43s): I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid, grew up around a little fly shop and have created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts in this country. Adam Cuthriell of Fishhound Expeditions, Alaskan Fly Fishing Guide, who has been fighting many of these issues for quite some time, is going to describe what the By catch report is all about. And just in general, what this bycatch problem we’re talking about here is he’s also gonna give us some ideas of how we can turn around. What you can do today, you can actually take some action today. We’re gonna find out what these massive ocean trawlers are killing out in the sea and some different things we can do, including checking in with the salmonstate.org right now. If you contact them, they are fighting the battle trying to keep these trawlers from killing the last remaining stocks of Chinook salmon. Dave (1m 30s): And as always, we’re gonna get a passionate rant today from Adam. As we get into this, I can’t wait for you to listen to this podcast and get some actions. Our main man from up north here he is, Adam Cuthriell from fishhoundexpeditions.com. How you doing Adam? Adam (1m 46s): Doing good, man. Dave, pleasure to be back on the show talking with you bud. Yeah, Dave (1m 49s): Yeah, definitely. As always, we just got done with, I think just recently, right this week we got done with the meeting with our crew. We’re, we’re heading up there. I’m excited because we’re gonna be back to fish with you guys and this time it’s gonna be kinda off of the road system. And we talked to, you know, the crew that’s gonna be up there, everybody’s really jacked because we talked about some of the trout species, the, the salmon. And I think today we’re gonna get into, You know, some issues right, that are going on. And I think the bycatch, you’re going to explain what that is, like, why that’s important, what people need to know, and maybe what we can do. ’cause I feel like you hear a lot about Chinook. We’ve talked a lot about it on this podcast. You know, the fact that Chinook runs have, have not been doing well, especially in the Kenai, some areas like that. Dave (2m 32s): So we’re gonna talk about all that today. But maybe before we jump into that, give us a little update since last time I, I can’t remember when you were on last, but we’ll put a link in the show notes. But what’s been going on for you, like this year, early year of 2025 and maybe late last year? Yeah, Adam (2m 46s): Yeah, we’re gonna talk about some conservation and given some folks a little bit of call to action and some of the issues that we’re facing. But yeah, it’s winter here now in Alaska. I’ve been getting alder out on the slopes, a bunch skiing and snowboarding, ripping around a bunch on the snow pony and backcountry snowboarding and riding the resort and getting ready for this season. It’s crazy how fast the, the winter is, is flying by when I’m talking with guests and getting folks out fishing, you know, it used to be so many clicks away on the calendar, it’ll be booking trips and now it’s, it’s getting really close. It’s gonna be go time. You guys will be up here before we know it. Adam (3m 26s): Looking forward to Dave (3m 27s): It. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, July is right around the corner and back to the, the land of the midnight sun. Right? That’s what we’re, we’re excited for this year. It’s gonna be good. Hell yeah. Well let, let’s start off, let, let’s just go straight from the top on, you know, bycatch the report talk about, and I know you were at a meeting last night, maybe shed light for somebody who’s brand new, doesn’t know anything about the, the issue of what bycatch is, how it’s impacting, and kind of what’s going on up there. Adam (3m 51s): Yeah, definitely. Thank you Dave. So bycatch is the referral to species that are caught by a type of commercial fishing that is called T trawling. There are both midwater, t trawling fleets and bottom t trawling fleets. They will say they are different, but they are not. The long and short of trawling is these massive ships dragging massive nets behind them that just rape pillage and destroy everything in their path. They are targeting Alaska Pollock, which is basically fish that is used for fish sticks, big fish sandwiches. Adam (4m 37s): It is the most harmful form of fishing in the world. There are other ways that commercial fishing can be done, but T trawling is absolutely decimating our fish stocks in Alaska. I’ve been working with salmon state trout, unlimited wild salmon conservation and they’re really trying to bring to the forefront what is actually happening in our oceans. And the numbers and facts are staggering and that’s why I wanna thank you, Dave, for letting me get on your platform to try to tell fly fishermen and what’s going on so that we can give a call to action to folks in the lower 48 who don’t know what’s going on. Adam (5m 25s): Because the big money that’s involved in this industry is doing its best at trying to keep it silent and not let the public actually know what’s going on. Right, Dave (5m 35s): Right, right. Well, what is, maybe just straight up, before we get into the deep dive on some of this, what is the, do you have a call to action? Like what if somebody’s like here listening now, is there something they can kind of take action on just as we’re getting going? Adam (5m 47s): Yes, they can go to salmon state.org. They have a petition on bycatch that they can sign. They can contact their local congressman senator. They can let them know. They can go to the North Pacific Fishery Management Council, N-F-M-P-C and let ’em know what they’re doing sucks. There’s lots of calls to action that you can do, whether it’s just signing a petition, subscribing to Salmon State so that you know what’s going on. And then, like I said, going to the North Pacific Fishery Management Council and letting them know what they’re doing is wrong, contacting their local senators, congressmen, just brief email like, Hey, you’re killing a bunch of your stuff that we don’t want to be killed. Dave (6m 31s): Yeah, and I think that there’s a couple of examples. I think, You know, as you can look at winds, You know, up there, right? The, the Bristol Bay one, I think is one that is a constant, seems like it always comes back up. But you know, that was a success. I think that was partly a success because of the same sort of thing, right? The public got out and the word got out and people spoke. Do you know much about that, that issue? And is that kind of how that happened? Do you think this could play the same way? Adam (6m 56s): 100%. So Salmon State used to be the No Pebble Mine company. It was started by a fishing guide. You had Tim Bristol on a little bit ago. And it was very much a grassroots organization such as this, bringing awareness to fishermen, to the public, getting the word out, writing emails, signing petitions, emailing your senators and congressmen. Yes, this was very much a grassroots, just like pebble. This is the next step that we are taking to try to fight for our fish and our people here in Alaska. Dave (7m 29s): Right, okay. And who are you maybe talk about who are and the species, right? You got a couple things going here. What are the most impacted species then? Who are some of those people in the country that are most impacted by this bycatch? Adam (7m 43s): On the broad side of things, everyone is affected by this. You know, I mean, healthy oceans, healthy planet, all that stuff. Native Alaskans, indigenous Alaskans are suffering. Like we were saying, I was at a meeting last night and I was there representing sport fish and future generations of being able to get out and fish. But hearing some of the indigenous people up there talking, telling their stories, I mean, it is heartbreaking. The, a lot of the indigenous people here in Alaska, their whole way of life revolves around subsistence fishing. It’s, it’s their food, it’s their food stability. And they have not been able to fish for the last four years longer in some places. Adam (8m 26s): Meanwhile, the t tra fleet is out there raping and pillaging with no consequence. We can get into some of the numbers later, but again, back to the how it affects people. I mean, these folks who live in these villages, I mean, salmon is their life and fish camp is their life. It’s their food stability. And they haven’t been able to do it. They closed it down. They have no, they have no food. And it’s just heartbreaking to see some of these elders and their, their kids and their kids’ kids and just the blank look in their face just like, this was what we did and now we can’t do it. Meanwhile, these multi-billion dollar seafood companies are out there just killing everything, throwing it overboard dead as bycatch. Adam (9m 12s): Wow. And these people, they have no food. I mean, it’s so much of their culture. Anyone who lives in the northwest, you know, right, wrong or indifferent, knows that indigenous people rely on salmon and fish. But here, especially in rural Alaska where they don’t have a Freddy’s, they don’t have a Costco, they don’t have a Safeway, they don’t have a king soupers, whatever grocery store you are used to, those don’t exist. They get their food from the land and the federal government is telling them they can’t fish, they can’t feed themselves. All the while these massive corporations out there are just dredging and killing everything. It’s so sad. Dave (9m 53s): So that, that is the crazy thing. Yeah. It’s not like you’re in here where you can just go down to your local, you know, Costco Right. In some of these villages or probably most of them and, and get food. So, and then what you’re saying is essentially the numbers are so depressed from lots of things, including the bycatch, but the federal government says nobody can fish. Right. For some of these species. And, and so which species are, are there, we talked about Chinook, but what are the, are there multiple species that are, that are closed down as you know, being impacted by the bycatch? Adam (10m 22s): Yes. So the big numbers we can kinda get into, those are obviously kings. So this year alone, and this is just what was reported. So on these vessels, on these traw vessels, some of them have actual physical human reporters that count bycatch. Others will have automated means. But it’s readily known that everything that they count isn’t the exact numbers. And the, the numbers for 2024 are staggering for the amount of chinook salmon, AKA kings, it was 38,751 kings caught, killed, thrown overboard for chum salmon. Adam (11m 6s): It was 48,643 just thrown overboard. And the next number that I’m gonna give is, is staggering for halibut. Four and a half million pounds of halibut were caught, killed. Dead thrown overboard. There were 3 million pounds of herring caught, killed, thrown overboard. 950,680 individual crabs. That’s tanner crabs, king crabs all just thrown overboard. One orca this year, last year there were nine orcas caught and killed. This year there was only one woo-hoo. Big improvement. Adam (11m 46s): Right? And salmon sharks, they don’t even report salmon sharks at the meeting that I was at last night. They’re showing video of these T tra nets coming up and the amount of sharks that they’re just pulling in there and throwing overboard is, it’s just atrocious. I mean, if this was being seen on land, right, it would be done. No one would tolerate this. But the fact that it’s under the water it’s way up here in Alaska, no one knows. Dave (12m 12s): And who’s doing the, who’s running these boats? Are these American or is this international? Who’s doing this? Adam (12m 17s): So there are troll fleets from all over the world, but right now we are talking about just the American troll fleet. And the really sad thing is, is most of these are from Washington. They’re not even Alaskan boats. 93% of the T traw fleet money that they make, and that is made here in Alaska, goes outta state. 93% of their revenue goes outta state. It’s not benefiting Alaska in the slightest. Right. Dave (12m 48s): It’s not even staying in the state. So this is kind of crazy. And, and it doesn’t look like, I mean, things obviously aren’t getting better. I mean, what, so we talked about that, about signing the petition, you know, who are some of the other, I mean, obviously you’re affected, right? May maybe talk about that. Just you, yourself, your family, people that are up there. How has that impacted you? What’s been going on? You know, recently Adam (13m 10s): It’s really sad, Dave. ’cause it affects everyone. You know, it affects our food stability as a nation. It affects small business. I mean, personally, this has affected me so negatively. As we know, I’m a fishing guide. You take people fishing, it’s Alaska. People want to come to Alaska, they want to catch salmon. For the last three years, people call me up and they’re like, Hey, it’s always been my dream. It’s been my goal to catch an Alaskan salmon, Alaska king in a river. Let’s go. Like I wanna go too. They’re like, what? What do you mean it’s closed? What do you mean it’s closed? We haven’t been able to sport fish for kings for the last four years here in the majority of South central Alaska. Adam (13m 54s): And when people come up, they’re like, oh, I want to go salmon fishing. Sorry, it’s closed. I mean, it is affecting small business. When I was in the meeting last night, there’s a great river here in Alaska called the Dsca River. And the Dsca River used to have some of the best king runs in the world. Massive kings, massive kings. And that river supported probably four or five lodges like big, beautiful lodges. It supported 20 plus guide services, countless guides. And the fact that it’s been closed for so many years, it’s a ghost town. It’s just vacant. Adam (14m 34s): It’s boarded up. And if we don’t start taking action, that is the fate that the rest of Alaska is going to have. It’s gonna be a ghost town. We all know people who like to travel and fish. We all know that We can look at research, go to places to fish. We are gonna go elsewhere. People are gonna not come to Alaska because we’re not gonna have the fish. And that’s gonna turn Alaska essentially into a ghost town if we don’t step up and fight for these fish. Dave (15m 3s): Yep, exactly. What, what are the, with the, the t trawl or you know, the, I guess it’s the, the trawlers, right? That’s basically the, the thing we’re focusing on here, because that’s mostly, is that where most of the bycatch comes from? Adam (15m 15s): Correct. Yes. So the, with trawling, the way it’s done, as I mentioned earlier, these are massive ships that drag massive nets. And they, even the ones that say they’re midwater t trawling, they’ve done studies. There’s been other independent organizations out the nets don’t t trawl in the Midwater Ocean column, they’re dragging the bottom. That’s why they kill all the crabs. That’s why they’re killing all the halibut. I mean the, the pictures, if you guys go on to salmon state, you can see the before and after. And the images that they show of the ocean floor before and after is horrible. Adam (15m 55s): I mean, it’s just gone. I mean, just think about it, these nets, they’re massive. They can pull in orcas. Geez, orcas are huge. Dave (16m 4s): Yeah, they’re miles, right? These nets are, can be like miles long, right? Adam (16m 8s): Huge. Yeah, huge. So they’re just dragging the floor. They’re killing all the life. I mean the, like I said, the amount of crabs. Crabs really don’t swim. Crabs are on the bottom and they kill damn near a million just this year. So they’re obviously dragging the bottom. And it’s just, it just is When you see these photos and you see the pictures of the before and after, it is just so abhorrent and appalling that this is still allowed to be going on. Dave (16m 35s): We’ll do a little search and put some photos and videos of kind of what you’re talking about. So what are the alternatives to the trawler, right? Instead of this, what other methods are more sustainable that we could change like right now and then do it better? Adam (16m 48s): It really just comes down to money. So just dragging a net behind a massive ship is the easiest way for us to get our Mick Fish sandwiches and our fish sticks. There are other means, whether that be long lining that are more specific to the, the Pollock. There are other means to getting these fish. And don’t get me wrong, I am all for commercial fishing. Commercial fishing in Alaska is a lifestyle. It’s part of our economy. There are small businesses that do it, but these massive trawlers are all owned by billion dollar corporations. Adam (17m 30s): It’s the, the Alaska Pollock fleet. They say they’re sustainable. It is not, it is all a wool being pulled over our eyes for these type of fish and this type of fishing. It is not sustainable. And there are other ways to harvest these fish that will not result in the massive bycatch that is currently going on. Dave (17m 52s): Yeah, okay. So yeah, there’s obviously some things and, and where is it at right now? I mean, we’re, it feels like, it feels like the world kinda knows about this now, right? Do you think that’s true or, or do you think most people still don’t understand what is going on up in Alaska? Adam (18m 8s): I do think more people are becoming aware of this, but just like from my business, you know, back to the lens that I see everything through. So many people call me up and like, Hey, I want to do this. I want to go fishing. You know? And people aren’t aware. And every time that goes on, I do tell people like, Hey, this is what you can do. And it has been very nice in the fact that like a lot of clients that I’ve spoken to after letting them know what’s going on, they email me back. They’re like, Hey, I’m gonna let you know that I signed up for Salmon State. I signed the petition, I emailed my senator, I emailed my congressman. So people are starting to become aware and just like with Pebble Mine and how we halted that, just this grassroots movement, it does take time, but it’s getting pretty bad. Adam (18m 57s): I mean, like I said at the meeting last night, just with the halibut, there’s a gentleman up here who’s been a, a halibut charter boat captain for 40 years. I mean, he is just a, the dude’s a yeah, he’s a salty badass, right? And he’s probably one of the fishies dudes up here for halibut. And he stopped. Oh wow. He stopped fishing. ’cause everything they’re getting is not of mature age. And he, he just stopped because he is like, I can’t be a part of this. I can’t be a part of this decimation. And the fact that a guy that has been up here for so long and seeing what is happening and stopped his business, ’cause he doesn’t want to be a part of the downfall of this species is paramount. Adam (19m 42s): I mean, it’s so bad. Dave (19m 44s): Yeah, no, I, and I’m st I’m looking now at the website. Yeah, there’s a whole thing on, what is trawling? They got some videos and photos here now. We’ll, we’ll put a link. It’s sam salmon state.org/bycatch right there. You can just go there and there’s a whole, there’s a whole page dedicated to it. Okay. So this is, yeah, obviously this is a, you know, a major alike, a lot of these things, I mean, I think we can go back throughout history, right? And see things that have gone on, you know, whether you start in the 1970s with the, the killing of the DDT, right? And all the, the bird stuff, you know, and we made some changes there, but you know, we mentioned the pebble mine, so it feels like there’s still opportunity here. I feel like there’s still some things we can do. So people are gonna be signing up for this petition, calling their local representatives. Dave (20m 26s): Do you think it makes sense if somebody’s down not in Alaska, let’s say they’re in you name the state Michigan, does it help for them to call their representatives there or there’s senators or, or do they need to call Alaska folks? Adam (20m 38s): They need to call their senators. They need to call their representatives. And just letting them know that they don’t approve of this. And really the best way folks in the lower 48 can help. This is where you spend your money. Don’t buy the fish sticks. Don’t buy imitation crab. You know, the Pollock are used in the fish sticks, the imitation crab. You know where you spend your money counts, right? What you buy counts. And if you don’t support these factory trawlers, they will see it in their bottom line. And that’s how we can really make an impact right now. Don’t buy it. Buy real salmon. Adam (21m 19s): Don’t buy farm salmon. Dave (21m 22s): Do you think you need a bush plane to fish Alaska’s legendary waters? Think again. Fish Hound Expedition specializes in road accessible adventures that don’t skip on excitement. Picture yourself fishing for massive rainbow trout, arctic grayling, and plenty of salmon species all within Alaska’s epic road system. It’s doable. I fish the road system on our first day with Adam and the crew, and it did not disappoint. The largest leopard rainbow I caught and landed was right off the road system. And we’ll be driving up again this year, heading up from the lower 48 all the way up to Alaska to hit those streams again. You’ll experience the breathtaking beauty of Alaska’s wilderness from mountain streams to hidden rivers perfect for anglers of all levels. Dave (22m 4s): Fish hound expeditions makes it easy to explore Alaska. Why wait? Your Alaska adventure is just a drive away. Book your spot now before spaces fill up. That’s fish hound expeditions.com. F-I-S-H-H-O-U-N-D expeditions.com. Don’t miss out The fish sticks, I think is a great thing to just reiterate, right? The fish sticks. Not, not only are they probably not, probably not that healthy for you, right? Compared to eating regular fish. But that’s a good example, right? That’s what we’re talking about. And the fake crab that you can get in sushi, right? You get some sushi from the store, it’s probably got fake crab in it. So if you stay away from that stuff and stick towards what wild caught, right? Dave (22m 45s): You wanna see the, the wild caught is that, how do you know what, what is the right fish to buy? Adam (22m 50s): That’s a tricky question. Yeah. A lot of these big companies do a pretty good job at marketing their product. Well yeah, Dave (22m 56s): They hide it. They hide it, right? Like the chum salmon, they, they call it CAA in the store, right? They call it caa, but that’s actually chum salmon. Adam (23m 2s): Exactly. Exactly. You know, when you see, when you go to the store and you want, Hey, I want have fish for dinner, buy a real filet of fish, You know, buy a real cod, buy real halibut. You know, anything that says imitation or farmed, you know, just these, these big companies. And I don’t wanna, I mean it’s Trident and Icicle and Peter Pan avoid anything that has those names on it. Dave (23m 30s): Oh, that’s it. So Trident icicle, Peter Pan. Yep. Gotcha. So these are the mega, the mega companies that are running. Yep. Gotcha. Wow. All right. So this is, and like we said, Chinook is a species that, and you know, it’s, it’s the king, right? It’s the king salmon. It’s the biggest fish. It’s the one that, do you have any idea, I mean, we talked to Tim, I think when we had salmon state, and I think it’s a big question, right? I think he had some ideas about why Chinook, but it feels like it’s just, it’s the biggest one. So it’s the easiest one to kill. Do you think that one, like why have not, you know, say the chum coho, I guess there probably have been some impacts, pinks, you know, the other fish sockeye. Are we seeing similar things to those other species? Adam (24m 10s): So kings and chums are definitely taking the brunt of the impact. And the main reason for that is they are pelagic fish. They go out from the rivers where they, they’re born, they grow out into the Gulf of Alaska and they go all the way over to Japan, all the way to Russia and back around. And they’re, they’re predators, you know, they are out hunting fish. That’s why they’re such awesome fish for us to target on the fly on lures unconventional tackle, because they’re predators, they hunt and they go out into the ocean. That’s where they’re just getting demolished. Whereas sockeye runs are still doing good because they are krill eaters. They’re not predatory fish. Adam (24m 52s): So a lot of the sockeye, they go out into the estuaries and they mill around the bay. They’re not going out and in the blue where these trawlers are. And that’s why the kings and the chums are just getting slaughtered out there because they’re predators. Dave (25m 5s): Wow, okay. That makes total sense. So yeah, so that’s, so essentially it’s just where they’re going. So these fish and I, I’m guessing steelhead maybe, is this because they’re out there too going for it? Or is that why we’re seeing, do you think some of these impacts with steelhead? And I know that that’s not a fish, well you have, obviously you have Kodiak, right? You’ve, you’ve Yep. Been in Kodiak. But do you think steelheads similar or is there a lot of differences with the steelhead? Adam (25m 27s): Again, I’m not an ocean fisheries biologist, but just from being here and seeing the numbers, yes, steelhead are, are also suffering the same plight. And you know, just to bring back up, like can things change? Yes. Perfect example. In southeast Alaska it took 10 years, but trawling is no longer allowed in the Southeast. And they stopped it from a grassroots movement, just like this spreading awareness, spreading knowledge to, to stop it. So it definitely can happen just through knowledge and beating on doors so that people realize what is going on to end this type of barbaric fishing. Adam (26m 8s): Yeah. Dave (26m 8s): So there’s still some opportunities here. And like I said, I think this is a good chance to, you know, get people fired up. And, and these meetings that you’re going to, is this kind of a, a monthly type meeting? You also mentioned the, the PFMC. Maybe you could talk about that. And some of these meetings that are out there, are these meetings that are mostly you have to be in person or can you see these online? Or what would that be if somebody wanted to take another step? Yep. Adam (26m 29s): You can definitely testify. The N-P-F-M-C meeting is this weekend. They do have Zoom testimonies. They have written testimonies. Yes, you can do this now and take action. Dave (26m 44s): You can. And, and that is the organization that kind of manages the fisheries? Is that kind of what what you’re looking at there? Adam (26m 50s): Yeah. Manages would be using that word very loosely. Right, Dave (26m 53s): Right. Yeah. Because it’s a, it’s kind of a, a free for all right, this stuff’s going on. Okay. And just for the record, and at least from what you’ve seen, you haven’t seen a lot of positives and changes or have there been any changes where they’ve tried to reduce t trawling and, and stuff like that? To this point, Adam (27m 12s): The t traw fleet will say that they have updated technologies and methods so that they don’t have as much bycatch. Last year when I went to a meeting with one of our senators and they had me come up to represent sport fish and the t traw fleet went first and this woman from icicle was like, oh, we’ve done all this and blah, blah, blah. We’ve changed the net diameters and we’re only pulling in a hundred kings on each net. As before, we were pulling in thousands of kings. Each set a hundred kings each set. How many babies are those kings gonna make? How many sets do they run a day? Adam (27m 52s): They say they’re doing stuff, but it is not having effect. I mean, on the, the Yukon River alone, 97% down for return rates for chum salmon on the Kaska Quim region 76 below historical average for the return for Norton sound, 72% down below historical average. I mean, these numbers are just appalling. There are other factors that are going on in our oceans that are affecting our salmon, but those can’t be controlled. The trawl bycatch can be fixed and it can be controlled. Adam (28m 33s): I mean, I’m looking here at the, the total numbers, it’s just abhorrent. I mean, millions of fish caught, killed, thrown overboard as bycatch. If those fish were able to return to the rivers to spawn and create future generations of fish, we wouldn’t be in this plight right now. Numbers would probably be down a little bit, but not 97%. God, the native indigenous folks here would still be able to feed their families. They would still be able to go out and live their subsistence life, but they can’t. All the while the troll fleet is out there going away the entire season. Dave (29m 11s): I know. And I, and I’m looking now at a website. This is kind of a, a government US government accountability office. Here you go. I’m looking at one here and it’s talking about the Federal fisheries management efforts to reduce and monitor unintentional catch and tracking. It says right here that the percentage of, for instance, only 2% of fishing trips in the Gulf of this is talking about the Gulf of Mexico, but has an observer. I’m guessing that it might be the same for here is there’s just not enough observers. So these boats out there, given the chance without any observation, are gonna probably take advantage. It sounds like that’s probably what’s going on up here. Adam (29m 43s): 100%. Yeah. Dave (29m 45s): So, okay. And I think we made it start, what would you say next steps we talked about at the start, you know, sign the petition, sam state.org, call your representatives, You know, anything else as we’re in with a phish too, like don’t eat fish sticks, right? Realize where you’re coming from. Any other things that you are doing, people locally are doing or you recommend that are trying to kinda make the move? I mean, obviously you made a trip to Washington dc. Are there some bigger things people can do out there on top of what we talked about here? Adam (30m 14s): I mean, I think the, the biggest thing that we can do as individuals is, like I mentioned earlier, where we spend our money and what we buy. Don’t support this industry. Don’t fall into it. Buy real fish. Don’t buy fish sticks, don’t buy a mc, fish. Spend your money where you know that it’s going and don’t support these companies. Dave (30m 38s): Yeah, yeah. No, and like you said, that’s, that’s good health advice and it’s good and it’s good advice for what we’re talking about here. Okay. Well given where we’re at, You know, I think that this is pretty, pretty straightforward. We talked about some of the groups. Let’s talk about that. We’ve had a few on here. We’ve had Tim from Salmon State, we’ve had the Sait River Coalition on, we talked about some of the road, you know, things going up there, trout Unlimited, those are kind of some of the main groups up there, right? Are there anybody we’re leaving out here of other groups that people can connect with, maybe sign up to and support? Adam (31m 9s): Salmon and State is definitely the, I would say the biggest, just because it is an Alaska organization that has been here forever and they have boots on the ground supporting them. Trout and Limited definitely a great organization to protect our fishery. But yeah, salmon State is definitely the one that has the biggest footprint here in Alaska. You know, we really helped stop Pebble Mine and they are transitioning their focus to try to stop bycatch. So Salmon State is definitely a great organization that you can support there in the lower 48, both by listening to their newsletter, signing the petitions, donating money. Adam (31m 53s): They have boots on the ground. Yeah, Dave (31m 55s): Great. And I feel like the, the indigenous people up there, and I, I will put a link out the show. We had a really cool episode with Ariel tto, who is part of the show, flying Wild Alaska. It was actually on for three seasons. And then it got, she told this story about how her dad was such a true Alaska, this is really cool, right? We did this amazing discovery show, but the discovery producers started to get to the point where they’re like, well, you know, you don’t have to fly today. We’ll just make up this skit Right? And act like you’re flying. And he was like, Nope, that’s the end of the show. So, so they canceled, they broke the contract off after three years. She told that story, but it really went down to, ’cause we talked about the indigenous people with her, you know, ’cause she’s indigenous up in Alaska in the village where she grew up and, and she loved it so much. Dave (32m 36s): But she said there was a lot of challenges. You know, the suicide rate’s really high for people listening now who aren’t indigenous, I feel like some people don’t understand, like, why should they care? Even some people, I’ve heard people say that like, well, let’s you know, the Native Americans, the indigenous, you know, we, let’s pay ’em off and let ’em do their thing. Right. What’s your take to people that are maybe not understanding why we should care so much about indigenous people? ’cause I feel like we should, right? Adam (33m 2s): For people that don’t have empathy, who can’t reach out to another human and see how they live their life and just say whatever. I know we’re on a, a podcast here and I shouldn’t use atrocious language, but off Yeah. You know, have empathy for your other human beings. Have empathy for people who live a different way of life. Have empathy for people who don’t have the opportunities that you do. And also, I mean, half of these villages, these indigenous people are living a life we should all strive for. They focus around family, they focus around friends, they focus around fish, they focus around hunting, they focus around gathering their own food. Adam (33m 46s): I mean, that is pretty badass. It’s how many of us white people wanna go and live off the grid and live subsistence? These people are doing that. And for us to say that, oh, just pay ’em off. It doesn’t matter is ignorant. And not everyone wants to go to McDonald’s and eat a mc fish sandwich. Some people actually want to go and catch their own fish and eat it and cook it over a fire and smoke it in a house that has been there for hundreds and hundreds of years. I mean, for these folks who live in these villages and live this life, that’s what they know. That’s what they love. It’s a part of them. And guiding in these villages and meeting these indigenous people, you know, I mean, it’s so cool how they are able to still live this life. Adam (34m 29s): And the fish to them as their life, bud Salmon are family to them. And we are taking it away from them. Dave (34m 35s): Yeah, that’s well said. I think that, and that’s what Ariel said too. I think I asked her at that. I said, what was it like? ’cause she actually lives now, I think, well she doesn’t, she lives around the country, but she’s in California part of the year, you know, but I asked her like, what was it like growing up in her little village? And she said it was amazing, you know, she said, it’s like, man, we were out there, my mom, we would be running in like below Sub-Zero temperatures within wind, you know, crazy storms. And they’re out there jogging and she just said how the community, like you said, was so impactful. And, and so I feel like a lot of people in lower 48 and probably around, you know, the kinda your typical white person doesn’t understand. Right. And although we’re trying, you know, I think the fishing is what brings us, like, like this trip we’re doing with you, right? Dave (35m 16s): We’re all coming up to Alaska because we want to experience Alaska. We want to experience what a little bit of, you know, a little bit of what that feels like. Do you, do you find that’s, that’s what people are coming up there for on these trips? Obviously they wanna catch a fish, but do you think the experience of Alaska is a almost an equal part? Adam (35m 32s): A hundred percent. I mean, we all want to catch fish, but it’s not just the fish we’re after, it’s the experiences and places that go along with the fish. And Alaska, it’s, it, this is Alaska. Like this is the last frontier. This has created so much history in our nation from people coming up to Alaska, whether it be the gold rush or the fish boom or new way of life, you know, that’s, it’s what brought me here. I mean, I dreamed about Alaska since I was 13 years old and picked up a fly rod. You know, seeing fishing magazines of Alaska wild rivers, wild salmon bears, just vast untouched. Adam (36m 13s): Yeah. Nature Dave (36m 14s): Is that, when that first came to you, Adam, when that first came to you was when you, you were 13 when you realized, wow, Alaska is this amazing place. Adam (36m 21s): Yeah, yeah. I mean, when I, I always, you know, I used to be a big fan of Discovery Channel and the nature documentaries on BBC and just seeing, you know, the herds of caribou, massive mountains, tons of snow. And then when I got into fly fishing and put two and two together, I was like, holy crap. Like that still exists. I mean, I’m from Colorado, there’s great fishing, obviously great fishing in the Rockies, but there’s roads everywhere. There’s evidence of humanity everywhere. And Alaska was always this last frontier of nature in wild places. And it still very much is. But we are at a precipice in Alaska with the T tra fleet, with mining, with oil, and it’s in the crosshairs to be forever changed. Adam (37m 8s): And that’s why it’s so important that people from the lower 48 pay attention to what’s going on up here. Because if we don’t pay attention, it’s gonna be gone and there will be nothing left. Dave (37m 19s): Yeah. That’s it. We’re we’re, the time is now. Right. There’s no more thinking, like, you know, something’s gonna change. Like, we’ve gotta take action. So I think that’s the, the focus of today’s episode is take action. We’ll put links to all everything we talked about here, and we’ll be following up. What would be a next, you know, follow up from this story. So we’re talking about the bycatch, this trawlers. If we were to go into the next storyline of, of this podcast and, and sharing more of Alaska and some of the impacts things people can do, where would you send us? Adam (37m 48s): I would say just keep doing it. You know, as a society, our attention spans are so, are so short. Yeah. Right now, you know, it’s, we’re always dealing with something and we’re like, all right, what’s next? What’s next? What’s next? What’s next? But just to stay perseverance and pay attention to these issues so that they are changed and that they are fixed. My advice would be to, to not give up, stay vigilant and keep fighting. Dave (38m 16s): That’s awesome. Quick question. And this is, we, we mentioned this a little bit on the, the Steelhead program. Is that something that is still out there for you? Have you seen when you fished that? I’m not quite sure on an update on that. Are you seeing changes with the steelhead? Last time I heard you guys had great, great success out there, right? Adam (38m 33s): Yeah. Numbers for wild steelhead are still doing good here. And one of my good, good friends, good clients, he lives down in, in Washington and just talking with him and, you know, a lot of the rivers down in Washington that have been closed forever are now opening up and having good returns of fish. So it shows that it does matter. I mean, look, for instance, like in Northern California where they remove the dams and in the first year, Kings are returning. I know. You know, just like, you know, to quote Jurassic Park, nature will find a way, you know, if we remove these dams and allow fish to come back, they will come back. Adam (39m 16s): Nature is resilient. We just gotta do our part and stay vigilant so that nature can find a way so that our fish will come back. Dave (39m 25s): That’s the truth is that we can, we can’t get there. And I actually just saw some footage on that, and it was within two weeks of removing, because they had the four Klamath River dams after they removed the last one within two weeks, fish went all the way from the ocean all the way up into Oregon in responding. Yep, yep. Right. And that was like, after literally, I mean, a hundred years of no access, that, that just shows you Right. How powerful, how resilient, you know, even with everything that’s going on, right. That they’re still resilient. So as long as we don’t, You know, extricate ’em, right, as long as they’re still there, we, we have a chance. So I feel like we’re still in a place where we are on that precipice. Right. We’re, we’re very close, but we still have an opportunity to make change now. Dave (40m 5s): Right. Adam (40m 6s): A hundred percent agree with you, Dave. You know, not to sound all doom and gloom with the numbers and the bycatch, but we can affect positive change. You know, if we limit the trawling, stop the trawling, our fish will come back. We’ll be able to fish for kings again. I mean, I remember when I first got here going out, going king fishing, throwing the spay rod. It wasn’t if you were gonna catch a king, it was how big and how many. And just to see that absolutely plummet is so sad and horrifying. But if we do take these small actions, the fish will come back and we can’t have this again. Adam (40m 47s): I mean, small business and fishing and tourism in Alaska is our largest industry. And if we allow this to come back, people will be able to continue to come here, go out fish, have a good time, do everything that we love, all while impacting positive change for our fisheries. Dave (41m 6s): Yeah. That’s what it feels like for this. And you’ve seen this in some areas, other areas, but the, you know, getting outdoors, right, the whole thing versus impacting the habitat. You can actually create this place where, you know, you reduce the, the bycatch, right. Maybe eliminate the bycatch and now there’s more fish in. Now you bring back all those people who wanna fish and all the resources and money that come back to Alaska, I’m sure is gotta, it feels like that’s gotta outweigh the other end of, of killing all these fish. Is that something that comes up? I, I guess that’s gotta come up at these meetings, right? The fact that that’s where we want to get, where we have this place where people, you know, don’t have to kill things, they can just experience nature. Adam (41m 41s): Yep. Very much so. I mean, sport fishing alone in Alaska generated $1.4 billion, $1.4 billion. That’s just sport fishing that doesn’t take into account, like in our, our economy, backcountry snowboarding, backcountry skiing, guided hunts, photo tours, river rafting, You know? Totally. You know, just sport fishing generated $1.4 billion for our economy. And we are on the risk of losing that. And if we lose that, Alaska will be a ghost town. There’ll be nothing left. Right. Dave (42m 18s): Did you see that in yours though? You know, on the area. So the, maybe talk about that real quick just for the reminder. The Sait comes in and then you have the Kenai, are those coming into the same General Bay area, or are they kind of separated quite a Adam (42m 30s): Bit? Nope, they’re, they’re all coming into the Cook Inlet. Dave (42m 33s): Yeah, the Cook Inlet. So it all comes in there. So it’s this massive inlet. And I’ve heard things about the Siit, just these, about the size and everything, but were you, so were Chinook coming up into these creeks where you’re fishing now or you still occasionally see, do you still see Schook even though you can’t fish for Adam (42m 48s): ’em? Man, it’s David’s, it’s, it’s so sad. I mean, because Dave (42m 53s): When would you see those, you would see those in the Chinook, right? These are kind of, these are fall Chinook. Right. So you’d see ’em in the coming through there in Adam (42m 60s): The No spring, so Oh, these are spring. Yep. In Alaska it’s, yeah, so it’s spring salmon. Okay, Dave (43m 5s): So August, September you’d be seeing a on, so you’d be catching potentially Yeah, in July, like June, July. Adam (43m 10s): Yep. Yep. We used to have king season kind of the end of May through the first part of July. And yeah, we used to see ’em all over the place. We used to, when we could fish for ’em, they were everywhere. I would get done guiding and wouldn’t even put my waders back on. I’d just put my, my muck boots on, my extra ts go stand, you know, ankle deep throwing the spay rod catch kings after work. Oh, wow. And now it’s, it’s gone. We would see where our fish camp is in our backyard. We would walk down, walk the dogs, and we would see schools of kings spawning everywhere. Adam (43m 51s): We don’t see ’em anymore. Dave (43m 52s): Yep. So not just gone, they’re just not there at all. Adam (43m 55s): They’re just gone Dave (43m 56s): Crazy, Adam (43m 56s): You know, and it’s, it’s negatively impacted our economy. It’s negatively impacted our livelihoods. It’s negatively impacted everything in Alaska. I mean, salmon in Alaska, whether you are an indigenous person or just your average white person, like fish is a part of life. You see it up here, it’s everywhere. It’s in our culture, it’s in our artwork. And to not see the kings anymore is just so sad. I mean, last night when I was speaking, you know, I brought up economy, I brought up business, and then the main reason we’re doing this, I brought up my daughter, she’s four and a half. Adam (44m 39s): I really, really, really wonder if she’s ever gonna be able to catch a king in Alaska, because we’re killing them all. And for her and for her generation is why we need to fight so that she can see kings running up the river returning to their spawning beds to create their own future generations of fish. We have the ability to fix this. We do. We, this isn’t an unattainable goal. We can fix this. We can right the train. We just gotta do it. And that’s the hardest thing is doing it. And how we, you know, bringing it back to what you can do, what we can do. Don’t buy fish sticks, don’t buy a mc, fish sandwich. Adam (45m 20s): Buy real wild caught fish. Don’t buy this crap that these massive corporations are selling us. We can do it super easy. Dave (45m 29s): All right, Adam, well I think we’ll leave it there. That is a, a, a perfect summary and, and kind of digging down into this one, like we said, we’ll have lots of links and show notes and we’ll be following up. The cool thing is, is definitely we know our listeners love to hear these episodes and take action on this stuff. So we’ll be getting the word out and I’ll be spreading this as I go, you know, throughout the year and, you know, hopefully we can look back here in, you know, maybe few years, you know, whatever that time and say, wow, okay, that this was back in 25 and, and here’s, here’s what we’ve done. And, and look what’s happened. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna stay positive in this, Adam, but we’ll send everybody out to fish hound expeditions.com if they wanna track you down and ask you any questions or find out what else they can do. But dad, man, thanks for all your, your hard work on this, you know, and, and just putting in the, the good fight, right? Dave (46m 13s): Because I think that’s about all we can ask, right? Adam (46m 15s): That’s all we can do. You gotta try. Cool. Dave (46m 17s): All right Adam, we’ll see you soon. All Adam (46m 18s): Right, Dave, later, bud. Dave (46m 20s): All right. Your call to action, your CTA is clear today. Go to salmon state.org right now. You can sign that petition. You can also connect with your state representatives right now. Check in, find out. If you don’t know who that is, find out and let them know you are very concerned and you want them to do something. This is how it happens. This is how as we talked, Bristol Bay, some of the pebble mine stuff got halted, partly in a large part because of this work right here everybody’s doing. So if you can speak your voice, get out there and do it. Alright. If you like shows like this and you wanna hear more of this, you can check in and follow this show at any time. And also wanna check with what we have coming up next. Dave (47m 3s): Okay, our next episode, we’ve got the Lato zone on Monday, Phil Roy is back, baby, he’s back again. And this time you don’t wanna miss it because he’s always gonna bring the goods. I also wanted to let you know that Chad Johnson, the Real Southern podcast, is getting ready to kick off. I’m gonna have a great episode with him. We’re gonna talk streamers. The big great Chad Johnson is gonna be awesome. So don’t miss that as we kick into our next major series on this podcast. Alright, hope you’re having a great evening. I hope you’re having a fantastic morning or if it’s afternoon and maybe you’re getting lunch, maybe you’re eating in your car along the way, listening to this podcast, getting ready to get out on the river. Dave (47m 45s): I appreciate you for stopping In today and hope to see you on the next episode and we’ll talk to you then. Outro (47m 50s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly, swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing.com.