741 | Missouri River Fly Fishing at On Demark Lodge with Craig, Becky, and Warren DeMark

Dave (2s): From past episodes on this podcast, we know how great the Missouri River can be from a stream that has an average fish of 18 inches plus 7,000, 8,000 fish per mile, and all under the big skies of Montana. Today we are gonna mix it up a little bit ’cause we’re bringing on the whole family has shed light on the Missouri River program, and you’re gonna find out what this Dryly School West is all about and how you can utilize the tips and tricks on this episode to plan your next adventure to Montana. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Hey, how’s it going? I’m Dave host of the We Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid. Dave (44s): I grew up around the Little fly shop and have created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts in this country. Becky Warren and Craig Demark are here to take us back into the Missouri and to take us through their family run lodge near Craig Montana. You’re gonna find out how to save your spot on this big trip and what the Dryly School is all about this year. You’re also gonna find out when to fish dry flies throughout the year and how to adjust your fishing based on conditions. You’re gonna also learn how to present a fly to rising fish and some of the tips on presentation that’s always critical, and also how cadis flies and mayflies are different and how you might fish them differently today. Dave (1m 24s): Plus we’re also gonna find out why the Missouri is so consistent and why this is such a special place on the podcast. We’re gonna get into it all today. So here we go. Here’s the family, Craig Warren and Becky d Mark from on to mark lodge.com. How you guys all doing? Craig (1m 41s): Doing great. Boom. You have the whole clan here right now. Dave (1m 43s): Yeah, this is, this is exciting. I think this is gonna be fun because today we’re gonna be planning and talking about the trip that we have coming up here. So this is launching off a big event we’re doing, which is kinda giving away a spot for one lucky winner to, you know, get a spot on this trip to essentially the Missouri, one of the Great Rivers. We talked a little bit about it on the last episode, but, but also a bunch of gear. And then the cool thing is we’ve got the whole family here, so we’ve got Warren, Craig, and Becky and we’re gonna talk about, you know, kind of how this all comes together. So first off, how are things going? I heard it was, you were saying it’s pretty cold there right now. What, what’s the weather look like in Feb? Craig (2m 19s): Yeah, it’s, we’re below zero right now. It’s, it’s about seven below and snowing, which we’re happy to see. It’s, it’s good to see the moisture, moisture coming. Yeah. Dave (2m 28s): Right, right. Is that part of the, is that a cha I mean, it’s a tailwater, right? So the, the river for the most part stays, you know, pretty normal or, or does this make a difference when you get these big snow packs? Craig (2m 38s): It definitely makes a difference. We’re always in pretty good shape as far as the, our water supply with, with having the three reservoirs and, and the tailwater. But we always like to see a good snow pack and it seems like those, those big pushes of water that we get every few years really raise our, our fish reproduction and the numbers of fish in the river. So yeah, we, we like to see good snow packs. That’s very nice. Dave (3m 2s): That helps. Okay. And the cool thing about, I think this trip, what makes it a little bit unique is we have this family atmosphere, right? We have the, the lodge that we’re gonna be going to your lodge, but we have, like we said, we’ve got Warren and Becky. So maybe we can introduce Craig, we already know you from that last episode. We’ll have a link in the show notes to that one. But maybe we’ll start Becky with you. Do you wanna talk a little bit about how you’re connected to, you know, the, the operation that you have going there on the, the Missouri? Becky (3m 28s): Yes. So I am the other half of Craig, I’m his wife of many years and my role in the lodge is making sure everyone’s taken care of. So from the time that you book to coming in to feeding you to making sure that you’re out on the water, getting you out there, getting you back in, making sure everyone again is just taken care of. That’s my role here. Dave (3m 51s): Okay. So that’s it. So when we, when we come on and we’ll, we’ll talk more about the details of how this all looks, but when we come back after a day on the river, we’re gonna have some, some home cooked meals. Is that, is that kinda the plan and some drinks there? Becky (4m 3s): Yes, you absolutely will. Dave (4m 4s): Okay, good. And maybe we’ll talk a little more about the, the menu. I think that’s always a, I feel like that’s always an x factor on all these trips is the, the good, the good food, right? I think that’s what separates it. I remember my dad used to tell me when he talked about some of his trips that he used to do, he’d say, you know, the fishing for the, you know, you can’t always control the fishing, but there’s these other things, right? These other things you can control like the food, the atmosphere, the camaraderie, all that stuff. So, so we’ll talk more about that, but let’s, let’s move to Warren to you maybe you describe your connection to the family here. Warren (4m 35s): Yeah, I’m kinda, my dad’s right hand man on the water. I’m the second guide, so whenever you’re in a group of four or more, I’m, I’m always on that trip guiding. So I’m just, I’m kind of worried about the fishing. I don’t really care about the whole food and stuff like that. I’m more Right. Fishy guy. Dave (4m 52s): I’m guessing you’re young enough that you’re in that range where you could go all day, all night without eating and just kind of Yeah. Wake up at three in the morning and go for it. Warren (4m 59s): Yeah, I’m 23 and I’ve been guiding for, this will be my fifth season, so I’m really into fishing. Dave (5m 5s): Wow, amazing. Okay, so good. So we have, and then Craig, of course you we have that episode, like we said, you’re gonna be out there as well. Let, let’s talk about that. Let’s just break this down ’cause somebody’s gonna win a spot here, but then we’re gonna have some other people that are gonna join, you know, on the trip. So talk about that. What is the, the capacity that you have, like total we’re, I think we’re looking at kind of early to mid-October for the trip. I think it’s gonna be four nights. Three days? Yeah. How does that look as far as how many people you can have at the lodge per Craig (5m 33s): Day? So our, basically our capacity is, is six anglers. We have three rooms. They all have two queen beds and they all have their, their own bathroom. So we kind of max out at six. I mean, it, it might have a little bit of flexibility like with a close family if a couple people wanna share a bet or something. But that’s, if we’re just, just basically looking at anglers, it’s, it’s six people and, and that’s, we like to keep it small so we can control the control what, who’s guiding you, make sure your trip is, is kind of tailored to your needs and, and what you like to do. So that’s what we like about being small is that we can do that. We don’t have to count on several different guides that may be booked elsewhere. Craig (6m 14s): And our guides are pretty well dedicated to, to our place and what we do. So it’s, it’s really nice to have that small family atmosphere here. Dave (6m 21s): Okay. And, and the trip itself is going to be in October. Maybe talk about that a little bit to kick this off. What is that going to look like as far as timing and, and hatches? Because we are gonna have this build as a little bit of a dry fly school. People that wanna learn about, you know, fishing, one of the great rivers of the west. Talk about what we might expect. Craig (6m 39s): Well that’s the thing about the Missouri is you pretty much have dry fly fishing throughout our season, which is April through October and October can be some of the, some of the best fishing that we have. It’s, we get some really good blueing olive hatches or betas, and we still have some mahogany dunns around. We have a decent amount of October cas that, that bring fish to the surface too. So October could be a great dry fly time. The weather’s beautiful usually. And, and if you happen to get one of those cloudy kinda rainy days, that’s when the, the dry fly fishing really kicks into high gear with, with just huge hatches of, of bluing on the water and, and lots of fish up on ’em. It’s, and the, the fish are starting to feel that fall later time coming on and the, the colder weather and they really start feeding heavy then. Craig (7m 25s): So it’s, they do it, it should be a, a great time to come out. Dave (7m 28s): Okay. And and what are the species, remind us again on that, what we might be catching there in the fall? Craig (7m 33s): It basically, we mainly have rainbows and browns. You do see a lot of browns in the fall ’cause that’s when they’re starting to get more aggressive and, and spawning and they’re, and they’re beautiful that time of year. They’re all colored up for the spawn and, but we do have a lot of rainbows that, more rainbows than browns actually in the river. But at that time of year we, we see a lot of the browns, but that you, you’ll catch probably half and half rainbows and browns that time of year. And they’re all very, very nice fish, high quality fish and that, you know, 18 inches plus range and on up and Right. They’re all that time of year that that’s when they’re in their, their best shape. They’ve, they’ve had the whole summer to feed and they’ve got all their weight on then so that that’s, yeah, it’s just a ba it it’s a great time, Dave (8m 14s): It’s a good time. Right. So they’ve beefed up a little bit. And so that is the cool thing. And we talked about this I think on the last one, but the, the numbers of fish, the size of fish, I think the Missouri is just kind of known as one of those fish per mile, right? Square mile. It’s got a bunch. What is it that, I mean, you think stands out? I think, you know, as far as the Missouri, is it the size of the fish, the number of the fish? And maybe describe that a little bit. Craig (8m 37s): I would say that there’s several things that do stand out. I, I do think that the quality of fish is probably the, the biggest thing that stands out. It’s just you don’t hardly ever catch a small fish on the river. And it’s not that there’s, you know, good sized fish, but there’s few numbers. Like a lot of places it’s, it’s good sized fish and lots of fish. It’s, yeah, when you haves a double, when a hatch going and there’s fish eating on the surface, you’ll see, you know, 50 to a hundred fish around you feeding. And that’s not exaggerating. It’s, it’s crazy. Just the number of fish on this river. Dave (9m 7s): Wow. Okay. So, and, and, and Warren, back to you, are you gonna be, so you’re gonna be one of the guides probably on, on this trip? Warren (9m 15s): Yeah, I’ll, I’ll be on that trip for sure. Dave (9m 17s): Okay, well what is that gonna look like? Maybe take us through your, you know, the day I’m, I’m picturing if let’s say we’re, we’re all arriving Sunday night, you know, say checking in around four or so, I’m, I’m guessing dinner will be ready that night. We’ll be hanging out, talk about the next morning with you on the boat. Paint that picture for us. Warren (9m 33s): Yeah, so in the fall we’re getting on the water a little later just kind of waiting for stuff to warm up. So, you know, we’re hitting in the water 8 30, 9 o’clock that time of year. Your hatch is a little later in the day. So in the morning we’re probably gonna do a little bit of nymphing and the fish are really receptive to betas, nims that time of year. It’s not rocket science trying to figure out what they’re eating. So you nip through the morning and then you’ll start seeing some betas popping up around noon right after lunch. We’ll have lunch at noon and then it’s pretty much dry flies from there on out. Kinda like he was talking about with all the fish. It’s not hard to find them and the, the way they rise, you’ll get these pods, 20, 30 fish in a pod just eating betas on the top of the water. Warren (10m 17s): It’s, it’s a really cool site. So you’re posting up above these fish and we’re fishing downstream trying to present those present betas dries down below. Dave (10m 26s): That’s right, that’s right. It’s all about the presentation and, and the so typically we’re gonna be mostly anchored up in the boat and drift in the flight down to ’em. Warren (10m 34s): Yeah, you’re trying to kind of crack the code of those pods of fish. There’s some blind dry fly fishing while we’re, while we’re floating, but I mean, you really make your money when you’re stopping on those pods and getting that perfect presentation that makes ’em eight. Dave (10m 47s): Wow. Okay. And, and what is the typical fly, typical size and fly you might be using on the surface there? Warren (10m 54s): I’m kind of biased towards a crippled pattern and with the betas hatch you get a lot of like natural size twenties and eighteens and then up to sixteens. But I usually throw a 16 for them. Dave (11m 6s): Right, okay. And so typically ing game in the morning and then dries in the afternoon on the nipping, what is that setup gonna look like? Is this where we’re drifting down nipping as we go? Do you have indicators talk about that a little bit? Warren (11m 17s): Yeah, so we’re using an indicator rig and with the betas they come up off those gravel bars. So we’re usually doing a little shallow nim thing in that three, three feet to a foot and a half range. So your nim f rig total rigs is about four feet long and I like to use my, for my point fly, I use like a tungsten beaded, just like a perdigon in that olive color, 16, 18 in that size range. And then for my second fly, I really like a split back betas pattern and that 18 size range. Dave (11m 48s): Okay. And what is the, describe the split back, is that kind of like an emerge or what is that? Warren (11m 53s): Yeah, it’s, it’s got that split case on the back and then just a little pheasant tail out the back and it’s Oh yeah, yeah, that pheasant tail olive color size 18. Dave (12m 3s): Yeah. Right, right. Warren (12m 4s): And then that’s, that’s all just drift nymphing. Yeah. Dave (12m 7s): Gotcha. So you’re just indicator drifting down as you’re going. You could just be, as you’re floating, you could be drifting down right in the, in the seam, that sort of thing. Okay. Yeah, we just had an episode with Tim Camisa, he just has a, a book that came out, I think it was called The Top, I wanna say like 25 euro NPHs. Basically he interviewed some of the greatest euro nipping anglers around the world. And the top two fires were essentially, I think most common paragon and the pheasant tail. Right. Like from all the best they still said, like those Craig (12m 36s): Two that, that frenchy pheasant tail. Yeah, that’s, yeah, Dave (12m 38s): Yeah. Craig (12m 39s): Yep, Dave (12m 39s): Yep. Right. It’s amazing. Yeah, the pheasant tail. I love it. That’s still the, just the straight up pheasant tail. Right. So just that’s all it is simple. Right. Do you find that that’s, you don’t have to complicate this too much. It’s, it’s fairly simple. Craig (12m 52s): It is pretty simple. It seems, I don’t know if it’s just the way we are as guides, but there’s always a hot fly of the year it seems like, and it, it, it seems to change year to year, but it’s, it’s like those betas, it’s usually some kind of a pheasant tail pattern. But yeah, that’s, we use a lot of, like I said, little frenchies, little jig frenchies too, and some of like those smaller thread beta, that type of stuff. But it, it, they’re all essentially that just that jig style with the perta gun or I mean, excuse me, with that, with the tungsten bead to get ’em down pretty fast. Dave (13m 25s): Get ’em down quick. Okay. So you’re not using a lot of split shot or anything like that? It’s just the tungsten. Craig (13m 30s): Yeah. Yep. That time of year, we don’t hardly ever use split shot. It’s, it’s all shell and Nim thing on, and just, just the weight of that front nymph is getting it down. Nice. And I will, I, I’ll also add in that is if a, if a person wants to or likes to or wants to try it, that’s a great time of year, like in the morning to throw a streamer too. Oh, Dave (13m 48s): Okay. Craig (13m 49s): The Browns are, are getting aggressive and starting to get a little spawn. And that’s another option too, is to Oh wow. Throw a streamer. Especially if you do have one of those cloudy days. Dave (13m 56s): Gotcha. So if we start out, so we’re gonna be, even though we all love the sun, we’re, we’re really hoping for a cloudy day. Is is that the case? Craig (14m 3s): We really are. Yep. Those are, those always seem to be the, the ones that you remember those special, cloudy, crappy weather days that just bring up lots of fish and lots of bugs. Dave (14m 13s): That’s right. And that’s kinda the cool thing I think being on the boat, right? You’re, we’re gonna have all of our gear, so you’re not gonna, you’re gonna have plenty of gear to stay warm, right? That’s not exactly, that’s not a problem out there. Yep. Craig (14m 23s): Throw as much in as you want to. We, we got a place to put it. So it’s, you know. Okay. But it’s Dave (14m 28s): Good. Good. And on the streamer, so you were saying, so this is before, before the dryly start, you could kind of throw some streamers like during the same time you’d be nipping. Craig (14m 35s): Yes. Yeah. You can throw that time of year, you can throw streamers all day if you want to, but if you know, it’s, it’s also, like I said, a great time for that betas hatch and you wanna always do that in the afternoons, but yeah, it, that’s a really good option. The morning is, is to, to throw a streamer Dave (14m 49s): Okay. Craig (14m 50s): In that time of year. But like I said, it’s if a person wants to, to get into a bunch of fish too, the nim thing is fantastic too. That’s it. Dave (14m 56s): It is nice. Well, give us a little, I’m curious about the streamer because we actually have, we’re launching a new streamer podcast series. Oh, and it’s hosted. Yeah, it’s, it’s gonna be pretty cool. It’s hosted by Chad Johnson. Oh, that’s Craig (15m 8s): Cool. Yeah, that’ll, that’d be really cool. Yeah. Dave (15m 10s): Yeah. So he’s gonna be going in and, and interviewing streamer folks from around the country. So, but I’m really curious about, because I think, I think it’s kind of, you know, what you apply, I’m guessing what you apply here works in other areas, but maybe talk about that. Is the stream, is this pretty straightforward or what, what does the streamer look like in your area? Well, Craig (15m 26s): I, I think the streamer fishing also kind of, it varies on the fishermen and what they like to do or how they do it. I mean, there’s, there’s a lot of guys that fish streamers slower. I, I like to, and I think Warren does too, but we like to fish ’em faster and, and really get ’em moving and in a lot of motion and, and up and down motion in the water. So I, it seems to, to draw strikes, especially if you still have, we have pretty decent water temperatures then still, if you get really cold temperatures, you fish ’em slower. But I, if it’s, if we have some water temperatures in the, in the fifties, I, I love to just to really rip ’em across and, and it seems like that’s a, that’s really effective in this river. Craig (16m 6s): And these fish are used to big meals in this river. They eat a lot of bait fish and there’s a ton of crayfish in this river. So I think that you’ll, some of your streamer eats, or a lot of them here are, are fish taking it for crayfish. So it seems like they really like that up and down flutter motion in this river. And another thing about this one is, it’s not so much about sometimes you, you fish streamers and it’s about the location of your cast and getting in close to banks and behind rocks and under logs. This river, it’s more about just getting long casts and getting them, getting ’em across some shallow gravel bar, stuff like that where the, the fish are laying that time of year, so Oh, Dave (16m 42s): Right. Yeah. Craig (16m 44s): That’s more of, of this river. And I think that goes with other rivers too, but it’s this river especially, I think long cast with, with longer rieves really do help you be successful here. Dave (16m 55s): Nice. And then that’s because those fish are coming in kind of off the deep and just hunting in the shallow water. Exactly. Is that how you Craig (17m 2s): Guys are doing it? Right? Yep. Yeah. Yep. When they’re in the shallow water, they’re there, they’re there to eat. Especially that time of year. Yeah. They’ll move back to, to the deeper troughs and stuff. But, you know, in the evenings, but when you start having hatches and, and they’re getting up on those gravel bars to, to eat Ds and, and Duns and that’s, they’re, they’re looking for food. Dave (17m 22s): Yeah. Cool. Well I wanna talk a little more too as we go about kind of presentation and how that looks with the dry flies specifically as we get into it. But maybe we, Becky we could swing back to you. So I’m, I’m still painting that picture of the lodge. So we’re, you know, we’re, we’re out there with Warren and Craig and, And we come in in the evening. When, when is typically, when is dinner time, does that vary or is that always a set time? Becky (17m 44s): It’s usually a set time, but it really depends on the, on the time of the year. ’cause if you’re fishing a little bit later, ’cause it’s cooler in the mornings, then we’ll push dinner till about seven. But yeah, you guys come back and I’ve got appetizers waiting and it’s cocktail hour and then while you guys are, are getting ready for the dinner, which is usually about an hour after you guys get back. So it gives you some time to, to put yourselves together and kind of wind down from the day before we, we sit down to dinner together. Dave (18m 12s): Nice. And is the, remind me again on like, on the lodge itself, is it sitting kind of near the water? Is this something, describe ma that picture what it looks like when you’re looking out the window. So Becky (18m 23s): Looking out the window, you do see the river, Craig, how far do you think we are from Craig (18m 27s): River? We’re about 75 yards from river. Yeah. Oh Becky (18m 29s): Yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re right there. And we have a beautiful mountain front in front of us across the river that you see while you’re, while you’re dining. Craig (18m 36s): We sit in kind of, yeah, the canyon with cliffs and pine trees around us and kind of in every direction you look there’s, there’s mountains and pine trees and yeah, it’s, it’s a, it’s a really pretty setting. Dave (18m 49s): Wow. Wow. That’s cool. Yeah, because this is, and again, you, the closest town is what, what is the, the name of the closest town that has I think like four fly shops in it or something like that? Craig Small town. Yeah, yeah. Craig is the, is mine. Yeah, yeah. Right. That is right. So you got, you got Craig, which it’s, so this is like, I’ve heard these places, you know, trout town, USA, I think I’ve heard the called the Roscoe New York, right. Trout ussa. Yep. But I feel like, I feel like you guys might also be right there with, with that name. Do you feel like be, I’m not sure what other places, what’s the population of Craig? Mm. Craig (19m 20s): It’s less than a hundred people probably, but I mean Right. So it’s, except in the summer it’s probably, it gets quite a bit bigger, but Yeah. Yeah. It is truly a fishing town. It’s just, it’s four fly shops, two bars, one tap house, one restaurant. Yeah. We don’t even have a, a gas station. Yep. Dave (19m 40s): That’s cool. So, okay, so now we’re in, so that was kind of day one and pretty much I think we’re gonna be doing the same thing each day and there’ll be room. So will there be room if somebody comes in and they’re really stoked for dry flies, you know, can we really double down on that? And then maybe if somebody else is, you know, really excited about fish and streamers kind of mix up a little bit throughout the trip, is that doable? Craig (20m 1s): Oh absolutely. Yeah. Yep. Especially with, with a few days here. That’s, you know, I mean, and each day kind of dictates what you do. If, if, if you have a, a calm cloudy day, you, you’re probably gonna wanna fish, fish dry flies all day. If you maybe have a little bit of, a little bit of wind and maybe the dry fly fishing isn’t as good. I mean there, there’ll still be fish uprising, but that might be day to throw streamers. It’s, but it’s, yeah, we can, and that’s what’s nice about, about us and what we do being small, is that we can tailor that fishing to what that person wants to do. I mean, sometimes we have people that come in and they just want to, you know, land a bunch of fish. So, and, and they don’t care how they do it. Craig (20m 43s): So maybe we’ll use indicators and nim fish, but then we also have the people that come in and all they wanna do is throw a dry. And that’s very possible here, most of the season do that all day long to, to throw a dry eyes or, and yes, we do get those people that, that wanna throw streamers and that’s also fun. But I, I always like to mix it up and even if somebody is really into to nipping, you know, if they or just don’t think they have the skill to dry fly fish, I always try to encourage them to at least try it and, and we’ll coach ’em through it and get them to where they can catch fish on dry. So, like I said it before, but a very user-friendly river. It’s, it is, there’s lots of different things you can do here. Dave (21m 18s): Yeah. So if somebody is coming in, they’re pretty much new to the dryly, I don’t know a lot. You could, we could probably have a chance to get them into some fish on the surface. Craig (21m 27s): Yes. And, and what’s, that’s what the river’s all about is, is you have all those targets, most of the time of, of fish rising, that you can, you can have many opportunities to, to practice your dry fly fishing here. That’s, whereas some rivers you may not, you know that a hatch some days is only an hour or too long and, and that’s the only time there’s fish on the surface. And at certain times of a year where it’s hard to get that practice and that repetition you need to, to catch fish on dry. Where here it’s, it’s a pretty constant thing and, and you’re always gonna have opportunities to do it. Dave (21m 59s): Nice. Nice. This is great. Okay, so I think we’ve set this up pretty well here. I had a couple other questions. Maybe Warren, maybe you can field this one. I’m thinking, you know, you get people in here, what are some common mistakes you see when anglers come in for their first time in the Missouri? Warren (22m 14s): I think for a lot of people, especially once we get onto like a pot of rising fish, is they just get a little too stirred up and their, their cast speeds up and they’re, they’re not waiting on that back cast. And then, you know, that loop doesn’t form and then they’ll throw short and then the next cast they’ll throw over and they just get, I mean, really stirred up by it. But you just have to take a deep breath, take your time and be really patient. ’cause you’re, you’re gonna figure your cast out and those fish are gonna be there. You just gotta take your time and really focus on like just the mechanics of your cast. Craig (22m 48s): Yeah. Sometimes here it’s almost like buck fever that Yeah. They’re not used to seeing that many fish and that many big fish rising and sometimes the panic sets in, but yeah. Dave (22m 57s): Right. Yeah, because these are big, I mean, and you can tell the, the size you can, can you tell when you see a 20 plus inch or over say a 15? Warren (23m 4s): Yeah, absolutely. I mean you’ll, you’ll be watching a pot of fish rising and you’re seeing, you know, six or seven 18 inch fish rising, rising, rising and then all of a sudden this fish rises that just makes those fish look small and then it’s okay, there’s a 24 inch fish in there, you know? Dave (23m 20s): Right, right. And then you gotta get to like, can you pick that fish out? How, how hard is that to actually get your drift? So it’s gonna go right over that fish. Warren (23m 29s): I mean it definitely is a challenge. I mean, with most people who are just beginning, you’re just trying to get it over the pot of fish and whichever one eats it, you know, but when you see that, that big fish and you find his lane, you just have to put it, put it in the right spot. I mean if he’s on the outside closer to the bank, it’s just gonna be a longer shot and then you kind of run the risk of running your line over those other fish. But yeah, it’s just a little sacrifice you have to make if you’re trying to get a bigger fish. Dave (23m 55s): So if your line goes over those fish, that’s definitely putting ’em down. They’re, they’re not gonna, yeah, Warren (23m 60s): It’ll, it’ll put ’em down for, you know, a couple minutes. They usually come back ’cause there’s a reason they’re, they’re feeding there. But yeah, you have to be kind of weary of putting all that line in front of a pot of fish. Dave (24m 12s): Gotcha. Okay then, so I mentioned before about the presentation, we’re talking a little bit about here, but what would be some other, you know, if you had to say a few tips on presentation, let’s, let’s think of the dries, right? We’re sitting there, we wanna, we’re gonna get this opportunity maybe for a, a trophy fish, right? Some fish of a lifetime. What are you telling somebody before maybe you’re there for that presentation? Warren (24m 32s): Just work on your reach cast. I mean we, we preach it all the time here, but that, that reach cast and getting that mend before, like putting that line above the fish before it hits the water and not having the mend after it hits the water is so important. And I mean it’s, it’s, it is essential. Dave (24m 49s): So the reach cast and that is the, basically you get the mend or are you also doing like a mend something along with the reach cast? Warren (24m 55s): It’s usually just the reach cast and then you’re feeding a bunch of line out as it drifts down ’cause we’re above those fish. But yeah, just getting that, that line to fall upstream of your fly as it hits the water and then taking all that extra line you have at your feet and feeding it out through your rod and giving that fly a nice long drift without drag to get to that fish. It’s really important. Dave (25m 19s): How long, if you saw the fish, if it was down below you say, I mean is there a distance where you are too close or too far where you’re, you wanna get the line or the fly when it hits? Warren (25m 29s): It’s really situational and it depends. If you’re in faster riffle water, you can be a little closer ’cause those fish aren’t so sensitive. But if you’re in really shallow flat water, you’re gonna have to be quite a bit further off. Sometimes you’ll start sitting on a pot of fish and some other fish will kind of work in next to you and they’ll, you’ll start looking and there’ll be fish like 15 feet from your boat. Then you can throw shorter shots to those guys. But yeah, usually when we see those fish we’ll try to stop 50 feet above, see what they’re doing. If we can get a little closer, we’ll try to. So it’s not just a impossibly long cast, but yeah, it’s all situational And Craig (26m 6s): It, it will also depend on the intensity, the hatch. If we get a really thick blanket hatch, sometimes you can get right up next to the fish ’cause they just, they’re so concentrated on, on those, those bugs that they don’t really even notice you’re there. But if it’s a little lighter of a hatch, then yeah, a lot of times you have to, you have to stay quite a ways away from ’em. And the other thing I’d say about presentation that I see a lot, a mistake that people make is when they, they throw that cast the fish and they get a good drift and the fish doesn’t eat or the fish eats at a different time than when your fly is going by. They’ll pick that lineup too fast after it goes over the fish. And that that’ll spook a fish. Craig (26m 47s): You just gotta let be patient, let that line get way down past, let your flag get way down past the fish before you pick that up to make your next cast and get all that slack out so you don’t, don’t really slap the water as you’re, as you’re making that back cast and, and pull in the, the fly up outta the water. But just let, let that flag get a long ways clear of the fish before you pick it up again, Dave (27m 8s): Way down. Okay. And and that’s, and can you, if you, if the fish doesn’t take, are you putting that fly right back on that same fish? Craig (27m 15s): Oh absolutely. If that fish, if that fish keeps eating we’ll, we’ll fish it until it stops or we catch it. That’s it kind of, if, if you’re looking for that specific fish to catch, you see that, that big nose, I, yeah, I, I’ll stay there for hours if it keeps feeding and, and, and keep throwing casts if you have to. That’s, that’s probably going back to talking about getting off the water and one time we eat dinner and cocktails, we always have this struggle with, with between Warren and I and Becky that we’re always staying too late out in the water and dinner’s gonna be too late. Right. And so it’s yeah, it’s yeah, that’s right. We, we don’t ever wanna get off of if we have rising fish or, or it’s, or it’s good. It’s, I know which it usually is here, so, Dave (27m 56s): And there’s probably some people that could fish all night out there. Right. They could just keep going. But Craig (28m 1s): Yeah, we actually do have people that come in and they’ll come and fish all day long and then come back and have a cocktail, eat some dinner and then if there’s a Cass thing going on in the evenings, they will go back out in the evenings and fish till dark. Oh wow. So it’s, it’s, it’s nice we have that access to the they can do that. Dave (28m 17s): Oh yeah. So you can do that. So once you’re off the boat you can still fish the evening hatched on the river there. Craig (28m 21s): Yep, you can, yeah. Oh nice. And we do have a, that was another one I I, I didn’t mention. We do have a fall cas too, which was good last year. It’s like a, like a 16 tan cadi and, And we had a lot of those, I mean along with the, the big October cas. But Dave (28m 35s): Yeah, you get those too. Okay. Yeah, I’m always interested in the cadis. That’s one of those I think insects that for some reason, I don’t know, it’s a little bit different Right. Than fish in the mayfly. What is the, what do you think is the biggest difference between the cadis and Mayflies Craig (28m 49s): Cadi are you kind of fish them, look at the fish, see what the fish is doing, what the fish wants when you fish a cas because sometimes they want some movement on a cadis, they wanna see it skated or twitched. Whereas generally, I mean, may flies, it’s always a dead drift getting a good dead drift that’s Oh it does. I think that’s the biggest difference to me and I, ’cause you don’t get those cas sitting in the water very long. ’cause they don’t, they’re not like the mayfly where they come up and come outta their shuck and sit there and let their wings dry off for a bit before they fly. I mean they’re, they’re coming up to the surface and they’re immediately in the air as soon as they, they hit the water. So the, the cat is the fish sea are not on the, the water very long. So they have to react to what they’re doing. Craig (29m 29s): Yeah. Dave (29m 30s): Okay. And what would be a typical, like for the Cas, what would be a fly, would you be using some sort of a merger or something the surface or a dry? Craig (29m 38s): We usually use, we usually use dry as I I like the corn fed Cadi. I mean, what do you like Warren? What do you, is that Yeah, the corn Fed’s really good. I really like Xca Dave (29m 45s): Too. Craig (29m 46s): And, and the X does kinda give you that cross between an adult and an a merger. I mean that’s the, that’s the nice thing about the Xca is you, you, you can kind of fish it both ways and you can trail that or trail, you know, a cas pu or an merger behind a, a cadis sometimes too. And, and do quite well, especially when you let it get below you and swing and, and just hang in the current for a minute. You can get those really violent strikes on that swing at the end of the drift. Dave (30m 9s): Gotcha. Okay. And then so we, the cadis and then what was, was there another species or what was the other one there that you have going? Craig (30m 16s): October Cadi is the other one. And which, they’re, they’re big, they’re like an eight, I mean six or an eight. They’re, they’re huge And we don’t get like a heavy hatch of them. But the fish really will cue to those because they, they, if they see a few of them, if you throw a bigger pattern that time of year that sometimes you’ll just get explosions on that ’cause the fish have seen a couple and eaten a couple and then yeah, as soon as they see another one, they’re gonna, they’re gonna just bounce on it. So they Dave (30m 44s): Are. Yep. And then you also mentioned, did you say like a maho mahogany dun? Craig (30m 48s): Oh yes, I’m sorry. There, there’s mahogany duns too, especially down here in the, the lower, well even lower than we are. ’cause we are kind of at the halfway point between Holter dam and Cascade, which is a stretch we fish, which is a about a 39 mile stretch. But the lower water, when you get down outta the canyon towards like from Hardy Creek down to the town of Cascade, that’s, we see a lot, lot of mahogany Duns down there that time of year. So that’s, that’s another one. And there, that’s one you can fish like a size 14 or 1616 mayfly pattern and, and, and do pretty well on it. Especially, or not especially, but even if they’re eating betas, sometimes you’ll throw that, that bigger pattern, they’ve seen enough that they’ll eat that, even if they’re eating just betas at that time. Dave (31m 32s): Betas and the mahogany is kind of a, that’s more of like a brownish versus the the olive. Craig (31m 36s): Yes. Yep. It’s, it’s a brownish, almost completely brown body and then like a dark slate colored wing. They’re not really transparent. All their wings are, are real dark. Dave (31m 46s): Okay, nice. And so, so that’s perfect. So there’s gonna be some opportunities there. And like we said, we talked about the other, you know, below the surface chances too. So, you know, getting back, you know, to the trip. So we’ve got, you know, like we said, coming in Sunday, we’ll be fishing Monday, we’ll be fishing Tuesday, Wednesday, and then I think we’re gonna be checking out on Thursday, I believe. But will we be, now, will there be another guide on, on top of you two or how, how will that look if there’s like say there are six guys there, Craig (32m 12s): We have a couple that, that we use that, that fit into our program that are being, are basically like family with us and, and ’cause we like to get easygoing guides that like to do what, what our guests want to do and, and not just get into their own system of doing the same thing every day and, and not trying new things. So that I, that’s, that’s kind of what, how I think we built our lodge, what we do and our guiding is we don’t just get into that, that groove where you’ve, you’re gonna just nymph every day or do the same thing every day. We, we like to change it up and do different things and, and see what the people like to do. We just like, we like to make it a trip that if you’ve been dreaming about coming to Montana or the Missouri River and, and you’ve got this, this specific thing in mind, let’s, let’s make it happen. Craig (33m 1s): Let’s, let’s do something a little bit different than other people are doing and, and be successful at it. And that’s what we, we really try to do. Dave (33m 8s): Yeah, I love that. I think that’s perfect. And that’s what we’re kind of, I think talking, building here, is that right? We have a few days and you know, just for the, the part where we’re all together and then of course people can probably hang out, you know, longer as well, but it’s gonna be, you know, I can imagine right. Depending on the weather. So if you do get a, you know, maybe it’s a sunny day or something like that, maybe we’re gonna do something different, but as soon as those dry flies come off, that’s gonna be our chance to kind of get going on that. But like you said, we’ll also have the nipping we’ll also have streamers so we can mix it up throughout the day. Craig (33m 36s): Yeah. And we’ll, we’ll see periods every day that, that you got a chance at at drive fly fishing. Oh no. No matter what, what kind of day we get here. That’s, that’s a nice thing is here you can, any day throughout the season, you can usually find a pocket somewhere. There’s some fish eating on the surface and that’s what’s, even if you don’t have those giant hatches that bring up, you know, thousands of fish, it’s, you’ll still find some pockets somewhere that, that there’s some fish heating on the surface. Dave (34m 0s): Right. And that’s partly because of, again, going back to this giant tailwater, I mean this is a big river, right? This is not a small, this is the, what, what are the, the three that we talked about that make this river the kind of famous upper river tributaries? Craig (34m 13s): The, the Madison, the Gallatin and the Jefferson. Yeah. And the Dave (34m 16s): Jefferson. Craig (34m 16s): Right. And those, those rivers also do have like the beaver head is and the big hole flow into, into this system. So we’ve got a lot of really high quality water coming in. Dave (34m 26s): And is the beaverhead the big hole? Which one I believe aren’t one of those having some issues with temperatures or water issues? Craig (34m 34s): Yeah, the, the beaver has had some, but the big holes really had some problems the last few years with, with just flows and temperatures and we’re just not getting the mo the moisture we used to and, and we’re having some hot springs that are getting rid of the snow pack early. And so we run into trouble there with, with some during the later season or mid-summer. It’s just warming up too quick and, and hopefully they’re getting, getting some things ironed out and, and trying to make some agreements with, with some people to get some more water back in the river and, And we just, that river’s so awesome. We love it. It’s just hopefully we can get it back to where it was. Dave (35m 9s): Yeah, definitely. Well that, that kinda just gives us a good break to talk about our, kind of our conservation corner segment. We always, always have a conservation kind of group or somebody we always talk about and help promote as part of these events. So who would be out there? I think there’s a few, but do you know any of that that’s going on? Is that in your wheelhouse as far as the groups or anybody working on those issues up there? Craig (35m 31s): Yeah, like our, our local trodden limited is, is very good with conservation and, and really, really into a lot of things here that, that’s a good one. Dave (35m 40s): Is that like the Missouri chapter? Craig (35m 41s): Yes. Yep. And then like going up in the headwaters, like there’s the, we we were just talking about the big hole, but there’s the big hole foundation. They do a lot of really good things and, and with some awareness and studies and on things that are going on and, and then we have the Upper Missouri watershed, that’s another one that, that is doing a lot to help that upper river like the Gallatin and, and the big hole and the Madison that they do a lot of work up there. But that that’s, that’s three that are just really on it right now. So those Dave (36m 13s): Are big. Yeah, the big hole might be a good one to talk to to get some information on, on the update on what’s going on there with all the, I mean maybe the snowpack year, right? Maybe if you guys get enough snow. Is it looking like, I mean we’re, we’re in February now. Is it still, is it looking like it’s gonna be a, a good overall snow year? Yeah, Craig (36m 28s): I think we’re, we’re getting back to, it was looking a little sketchy earlier in the winter, but now we’ve been getting some storms and our snow packs are getting closer to that, that a hundred percent. So we don’t really make any judgment until we have a big picture And we, February and March can be some of our best months for, for moisture. So, you know, we start getting into, into later this month, early March, then we’ll really take a, a good look at it and I, but it right now, like I said, it’s, it’s snowing pretty good right now, so yeah, hopefully. And then a lot of it also those upper rivers depends on the spring, you know, if it, if we get get a cooler wetter spring And we hold that snow pack for longer, that that really helps. Craig (37m 8s): But if you get that, you know, that hot period in April or, or early May and it, and it brings all that snow down quickly, then that’s, that could be a problem. But, so yeah, there’s, there’s lot, lots of factors that go into it, but it’s looking pretty decent this year and yes, the big whole foundation, I I, that’s definitely one that I think the, they’d be worth talking to and I know them pretty well so we can Oh good. We can definitely put you in touch with that. That be that’d be awesome. Yeah. Be nice to again see some, some awareness on that river. You know, I know it’s, it’s gotten some publicity about what’s going on with it the last few years, but I think just the more and more people are aware of it And we can do some things to turn it around would be great. Dave (37m 46s): Yeah, I think that that’s what you hear. I think last time I heard, I haven’t been up on it, but it sounds like there there was a lot of questions like they didn’t exactly know, it was just like kind of a surprise. Like nobody knew what was Craig (37m 54s): Yeah, they just weren’t really sure why. I mean ’cause they got some low fish numbers or low fish counts in good water years and it was, we’re not Yeah, right. That was, that was the most concerning thing ’cause yeah, you’ll always lose some fish when they have bad water years, but they were having good water years and losing some fish. Gotcha. So that’s what’s Dave (38m 11s): That was, yeah. The disturbing part. So, okay, well we’ll follow up with them. I want to check back, Becky, if you’re still on there, I wanted to check back with you. I I was kind of thinking, you know, I grew up around, my dad was a guide as well and you know, our whole family, you know, my mom was even out there, she was kind of a, probably caught more steelhead than me over the years, but I remember eventually, you know, she kind of got outta it. Now are you, are you into the fishing, are you more into hanging out at the, what what’s your connection to all the, the fishing or do you get tired of the, these crazy guys that are out there all day? Becky (38m 40s): No, I don’t ever get tired of these guys. Yeah. They’re some of my favorites. Right. Yeah. No, I fish, I fish as much as I can get out and do when I’m not working here at the lodge. It’s, it’s definitely in our DNA in our family for sure. Dave (38m 55s): Right. It is. Yeah. What what’s the, give us the short story of, of you and Craig. It sounds like you guys have been together for a while. Did you guys meet in, I can’t remember Craig, ’cause I know you told some of the story, but did you meet in Montana or was this back in another, another kind of area? Craig (39m 10s): We actually, we actually met in Idaho. We both, we both lived in Idaho, grew up there, so, yeah, Dave (39m 15s): That’s right. And that’s where you’re still your other business, right? Is the ot Correct. Craig (39m 19s): Yep, yep. Still in the, in the Boise Valley. Yeah, Dave (39m 21s): In Boise. Yeah. In Boise, that’s right. Yeah. And, and Boise, I mean, has some pretty good fishing too, right? I mean there’s quite a bit of rivers. Is that a big, what, what is the difference between the Boise area versus kind of the Missouri? Craig (39m 33s): What really attracted me to Montana was just the amount of rivers, the amount of water that there is here. I mean it’s the Boise Valley does have some excellent fishing, but you just don’t get the opportunities to, you know, put in, in hardly any rivers and, and float for 50 miles and, and have trot water where you do here. It’s, there’s not as much, not as much of this kind of fishing there as there is there, Dave (39m 58s): Is it drier in Idaho? Is it in in that Boise? Is it a lot drier or is Missouri, is that Missouri area kind of deserty too? It is, Craig (40m 5s): It’s drier in, in that Boise area. It’s, that area is technically a desert. I mean it’s, they get less than 12 inches of precipitation a year, I think. And it’s, it’s pretty low. It’s in that, you know, 2,500 foot elevation range, so it gets pretty warm summers. It’s, it’s actually has probably better warm water fishing than it does trout fishing. You know, there’s, there’s good, good bass fishing, croppy fishing, stuff like that around. Mainly the trout fishing you get in that area is, is more tail waters unless you go quite ways up in the mountains and get some of those upper, upper mountain free stones. But that’s, and where we’re at here on the Missouri is it’s pretty dry And we get pretty warm summers, but we just have so much of that continental divide water coming into us from, from Yellowstone Park and, and the Idaho border on the, on the continental divide with those, those big high mountain ranges that there’s a lot of water here. Dave (40m 58s): Okay. And good. And before we get outta here in a little bit, I, I wanted to check back Becky on, on you. So on, on the breakfast it, this is, we’re gonna have maybe paint that picture, it sounds like the, in October we’re gonna have a little more time to hang out in the morning. Is this gonna be like, maybe paint the picture of the breakfast? So what are we gonna be having there? Becky (41m 16s): So coffee’s ready when you guys get up in the morning, it’s ready for you guys. I’m in the kitchen hustling around and one of my favorite breakfast is I do an open-faced egg white omelet with roasted tomatoes and Oh wow. Spinach and feta. Yum. And all my breakfasts are, are served with fresh fruit, of course, coffee, juice. And then while you guys are finishing up your breakfast, I am finishing up packing up those fresh lunches for you guys to take out with you as you hit the water. There Dave (41m 43s): You go. Becky (41m 44s): And that could be anything from a, a southwest chicken wrap to a, a sandwich to, if it’s a cooler day, maybe some soup on the river and Perfect. Yeah, Craig (41m 53s): Well we’ve, we’ve made an effort here this last season just to be able to keep everything in-house and, and have that control over our, you know, lunches and, and everything on the river that, that we do. I think I mentioned before, she is the, the superstar of our operation. Yeah. There’s the X factor be no doing this without her. So Dave (42m 10s): That’s it. This is so good. Okay. Anything else we wanna talk about here, about the trip? I feel like we’ve kind of shared what it’s gonna look like. We’re gonna have, you know, four nights on the water, three days fully guided. We’re gonna be coming back, hanging around at, you know, in the evenings there. Is there a, is there a spot to have in that time of year to have like a campfire fireside chat? Craig (42m 30s): Yes. Yep. We have a big nice deck off the front that sometimes when you get back you’ll usually sit out there and, and have a cocktail or a beer or, or a glass of wine. And we keep all all that here for you. And we, we usually reach out before you come and see if there’s anything specifically you like, just to make sure that we have it here for you. Then, you know, grab a, have appetizers, Becky has those ready with, with the cocktails and then dinner served soon after and then we’ll usually wander back outside and I’ll start a fire And we have a nice fire pit and just sit under the gigantic Montana sky and look at stars and Dave (43m 8s): Right. Big sky country. Right. Tell Craig (43m 10s): Fish stories about that day. It’s yeah, Dave (43m 12s): The big sky. There’s some truth to that, isn’t there? Why does it seem like, why, why is it called the big sky country out there? Craig (43m 18s): I mean, it, it, it really is when you see it, it is just a, and it seems like it’s everywhere in Montana. It’s a gigantic sky and I, I have no idea why it seems different than anywhere else, but it, it really does. I Dave (43m 27s): Is it typical, I mean the weather you guys get is you get plenty of snow right in the winter on a typical year, but summers are, are typically sunny or, or a mix or what does that look like? Craig (43m 36s): Yeah, here we, we do, we have sunny, nice warm summers here. We’re about, I think I mentioned before, 3,400 feet in elevation. So we’re a little bit lower than a lot of these Montana rivers where some of the, most of those are in that, you know, 4,500 to 6,000 foot elevation range. So we get the longer springs and longer falls. So, but we do get a little bit warmer in the summer. We, I mean, know a lot of the summer in July it’ll be in the eighties, you know, it might reach 90 once in a while, but it’s, and then the evenings, even when we have those warm, like 90 degree days, it cools down in the evenings and just, you know, down to the, into the fifties and forties. And so you get those clear, crisp nights and, and the fire feels good and, yeah. Craig (44m 22s): Yeah, Dave (44m 22s): That’s it. Okay. So 34. And then what is the, in the CFS, what, what’s your average there on during that time of year? Craig (44m 28s): In the summers we run about four to 5,000 CCFs. Normally, you know, by, by the time we get our push of runoff, usually in very late May or very early June, and I mean, it can be, you know, up to 15,000 CCFs or even higher, but it usually comes down fairly quickly. And by July we’re in that, that 5,000 CFS range usually, which is just a, a great flow. We still have water up on the banks to, to give that, give those spots where fish can lay there. And then we get those, those gravel bars with plenty of water going over that the fish are eating off of. So it’s, and it just, it’s, there’s just a lot of room in the rative spread out. So even if it, if we get some people, and it seems like it gets crowded, it, once you get in the water, it just, everybody kind of spreads out and you have, you know, you just your own section of the Missouri to fish. Craig (45m 17s): It’s, Dave (45m 18s): That’s it. Right. And that’s kinda one of the cool things that, it’s so big that even though, you know, you hear these stories about the crowded boat ramps and stuff like that, but it, it’s really, once you get on the water, it’s big enough that you don’t feel crowded. Is that, is that Craig (45m 30s): Case? Yep. It totally changes it once you get on the water. Yeah. Dave (45m 32s): Yeah. And then, then you’re in your own world, right? You got your boat, you got your clack of craft, right? And you’re just kind of, you’re, you’re out for the day. Craig (45m 37s): Yep, exactly. Yep, yep. You are. And like I said, you can, a lot of times in that time when you’re here in October, we’ll we’ll do the same thing, but we’ll, you know, float to a pot of fish and, and anchor up and stop and might sit there for, you know, two or three hours and you, you’re just concentrating on that, that one fish or those few fish that are rising in your fly and just the world goes away for everything but that fish in your fly for, for those hours. So Dave (46m 4s): That’s what’s the, when that fish, let’s just say that that big fish takes and you know, eventually eats it. What, what is your, what’s your tip there to make sure you don’t lose it or that you hook up with it? Is it just a normal simple set? Set the hook? Craig (46m 16s): Yeah, just, just lift that rod. I mean, don’t, the worst thing with the dry fly fishing, as far as as setting the hook is you see it happen and your, your arm and and hand react faster than that fish can eat sometimes. Right? So that’s the probably the most common thing is, is setting the hook too fast and, and ripping out of its mouth before it actually got a chance to eat it. But yeah, give it, once it eats, give it just a little count, like a 1001 and then, and then just lift that rod and get the slack out. Don’t pull hard and try to set it like you’re bass fishing. Just lift the rod, get the slack out and let the fish get hooked up and, and then hang on. Craig (46m 57s): It’s, you’re gonna have to, that’s the other thing is here, people aren’t used to the size of fish and those fish run and, you know, they don’t let go of the line and, and they either break off or, or get off that way. But yeah, you just gotta let go and let ’em, let ’em run. Okay. And if they, if it’s a real big fish and we’re anchored up, then we’ll just follow ’em on the boat. You’ll just gotta keep that line tight and, and let ’em run and let them tire out. Dave (47m 23s): Wow. And the typical float length of a day float, how many miles are you doing? Craig (47m 28s): You know, it, that’s another, another one that varies in the time of year and our flows and, and how we’re fishing. But in October we’re probably gonna be doing that five to seven mile stretch. Sometimes you’ll, you know, if, if the dry fly fishing’s really good, you’ll do about a half a mile and sit on fish for four hours, then spend the rest of the day trying to get off the river ’cause you’ve waited too long. But, but that’s fun too ’cause then you can throw like a big October cas and, and just let it drift over gravel bars as you’re floating along and, and watch fish eat. But that’s, but yeah, typically we’re in that, those kinda shorter floats then that yeah, that five to seven miles, you know, whereas in June there’s times if you’ve got a lot of water you might cover 12 or 15 miles. Craig (48m 11s): So it’s, it very much depends on the time of year, but, but we’ve got, like I said, you know, almost 40 miles. So there’s several stretches we can do that you won’t see the same water twice. That’s Dave (48m 20s): It. Wow. Cool. Well what is the, maybe Warren will take it to you and then we’ll kind of start to take it outta here. What are we, are we missing anything here you want to give a, a heads up on as far as the trip that we haven’t talked about today from your perspective? Warren (48m 34s): I kinda wanna circle back just to the streamer fishing. I mean, if you’re a, an angler who’s been fishing for a long time and knows how to, how to throw a long cast, that’s just such a fun way to catch fish here. Usually I’m, you’re trying to strip it really fast, get it rolling. So, so most of those takes you get are really aggressive and then you, you’re hooked up to a big Bronny brown and he is gonna take you downstream and it’s a fun fight. We’re usually using zero x tidbit, so you can tug on a lot and okay. Really enjoy the streamer fishing here. It’s a, Dave (49m 5s): What’s a typical streamer fly, maybe size or name of fly you’d use? Warren (49m 9s): Yeah, I like a, a copper relex size four. That’s kinda my go-to. I don’t think they’re super picky with the pattern. I like flashy just so they can see it and all that water you’re trying to cover. We’ll use a sparkle minnow too, anything with some weight to it, so it kind of drops and flutters. Dave (49m 26s): Okay. So yeah, you’re, you’re kind of imitating a, you’re giving it some action so it’s looking like it’s wounded or you know, something like that. Warren (49m 33s): Exactly, yeah. And with all the crayfish, they kind of pop and kick when they’re rolling in the water. So that’s, I think they eat, eat for crayfish a lot of the time, so that CEX pattern’s pretty good for that. Dave (49m 43s): Okay, cool. So that’ll be, we’ll look forward to that. So we’ve got the, the streamer game way, we will hook that up with you. And then like we said, we got everything else we talked about here. Yeah, I think this has been good. I think we’ve narrowed this down. Craig or Becky, anything else you wanna touch base on anything about the, you know, the whole atmosphere of the trip that we missed today? Craig (50m 2s): I don’t think so. We, it just, you’re gonna have a, a great time and just be very comfortable and just around with, with just people that are, we kind of consider, we’ve talked about this before, but all of our clients are, are guests. They’re not really clients or guests or their, and then we, we get to the point where you just consider them family ’cause it, you really, it really does feel like that here. It’s never, never a, a kind of a party or corporate atmosphere like that. It’s just like, you’re just just hanging out with friends and family and fishing and it’s, and you’re, you’re coming to a river that if you haven’t been to the Missouri, you’re gonna see fishing that you didn’t really think was possible in the lower 48. I mean, you’re, you’re gonna think that you’re gonna see things that you’d only think you’d see in New Zealand or Patagonia or places like that. Craig (50m 47s): But it just, the numbers of fish, size of fish, the hatches, the way you fish to them and, and where they’re all all wild naturally reproducing fish is just a god, a really cool experience. Dave (50m 58s): They are so they’re all, they’re all, there’s no hatchery supplementation on this river in this area. Nope, Craig (51m 4s): There is not. We’ve, we’ve not, wow. This river hasn’t had planted fish for 50 years. Dave (51m 9s): No kidding. Craig (51m 10s): Yep. And we still have that, those big numbers like this. Like I said, I before that this, the last couple fish counts have been in that, you know, in the upper river, 8,000 fish per mile or that’s trout, catchable sized trout. And they’re all, they’re all naturally reproducing. They spawn either in the Missouri or in in the feeder streams. And, and that’s, that’s another really special thing about here is just that you’re not not gonna catch a, a hatchery fish or planted fish. No. That also goes back to it’s gonna be some of the hardest fighting rainbows you’ve ever seen. And it’s just ’cause they’re all wild fish. They’re not Yeah, they’re not hatchery fish. Dave (51m 46s): Do the pound for pound is the brown or rainbow fight better out of those two species? Craig (51m 52s): I don’t know what, what do you think Warren? It is a rainbow. Yeah, it’s Dave (51m 55s): Not the rainbow. So is it, is it that 15, is that 1516 inch rainbow that range that fights the best or is there another size or The big ones fight good too? Craig (52m 4s): All the fish here. I mean if you catch a a 15 inch rainbow or you catch a 24 inch rainbow, they’re, they Dave (52m 10s): Fight, they’re Craig (52m 10s): All gonna fight very similar. I mean, they’re gonna be, soon you hook ’em, they’re gonna be immediately outta the water or they’re gonna go on a run that takes you to your backing. I mean it’s the, it’s, it’s crazy how hard the rainbows fight here and that that’s nothing knocking the browns, the browns are, are really good and they’re, they’re strong and, and go deep and pull hard. But the rainbows here are just, they’re acrobats and, and athletes, I mean they just are, are going across river so fast. You, you can’t keep up with ’em sometimes when you’re trying to pick up line. Dave (52m 39s): Nice. Well let’s give it a, and right now we’re actually, as we’re doing this, it’s kinda early February I think this is gonna go live. Well we’re talking April, so let’s just take it there for a second. If it’s early April, what can somebody potentially expect for fishing? Are you getting out there in the water? Is there a lot of people out there? In April? Craig (52m 55s): April is is usually a pretty light time for, for the numbers of anglers, it’s, it’s one of those that the weather can be a wild card. You could have a, a nice 65 degree sunny day or you could have a one that’s the temperature never gets outta the thirties and you’ve got rain and snow. But those days that it never gets outta the thirties and you have rain and snow are some of the best bluing olive and, and mid days you’ll see, I mean it’s, you’ll usually wind up dry fly fishing that whole day. We have, we have really good dry fly fishing that time of year. Really good nipping it’s early, the fish are hungry. It brings up a lot of the bigger fish to the smaller dries that time of year. It’s, I think looking back this last year, some of my best days with our guests were, you know, in late April and early May. Craig (53m 43s): And it’s, and it’s good in early April, just a lot of it depends on how quickly the, the water temperatures start coming up in the spring. ’cause sometimes they can stay in the thirties into, you know, early and mid-April. But if you get a, you know, get a normal year, we’re probably in the water temperatures in the forties that time of year and, and really good bluing doll hatches. And it can be a really fun time. And like I said, it’s, it’s one of the time it’s, you’re gonna have just your diehard fishermen here. You’re not gonna have, you know, a lot of tourists as, as you might call ’em, that you get in June and July. It’s so you don’t have the, the numbers of anglers in the river that you do in those later months and October will be similar. You it’s fall and there’s not as many people here and a lot of people are, are hunting that time of year so they’re not fishing. Craig (54m 28s): So it’s, that’s another great time to, to kind of get away from people. Dave (54m 32s): That’s right. Yeah. Because fall people are going for the hunting, so it, it won’t be as big. Yeah. When is the busiest time? When, when do you go out there and to everything’s, you know, super busy? Craig (54m 41s): I think that if we get a, a big snow pack year or a real rainy spring, early June will will be the busiest by far. Because what happens is most of the other rivers in Montana will, will have runoff and they’ll blow out. And so most of the guides and people that fish will come to the Missouri because it’s a tailwater and, and you don’t really have to contend with runoff for quite a few miles in the river. So that can be the busiest time is early June. Dave (55m 8s): Early June. Okay, perfect. Okay, well I think we can leave it there. We will send everybody out. Maybe get us a heads up on that. Where is the best place? Let’s hear one more shot on your website so we can have people that can connect on some of this. Craig (55m 21s): So we are at, on demark lodge.com, that’s our website and now all of our information’s there and, and our pricing and everything. And there’s some samples of meals and, and kind of what you get. And then our, our various trips. And then, and then we’re on Instagram at, on Demark Lodge also. Dave (55m 37s): Yeah, it is. Okay. It’s just on Demark Lodge everywhere on Instagram. Okay. We will, we’ll make sure to set, put some links in the show notes here and yeah, I’m, I’m excited to get this going and, you know, talk to some people and get out there because I think the Missouri has done done, Craig (55m 50s): I’m sorry, one more thing I might mention. I didn’t mean to interrupt you. Yeah, go for it. So we are in the middle of our show tour right now. I mean we’re doing, you know, fly fishing shows, but we just actually just got back from Atlanta last night, so we’re gonna kind of be around in different places here for the next, next few weeks into late March. And so you might look for there, we’ll be in the Seattle area here in a couple weeks, then we’re down in the Bay area and then we’ll go down to Costa Mesa, California and then we’re in Salt Lake and, and then back into Vancouver, Washington. So yeah. We’ll, we’ll be around if people wanna look for us, if you wanna come out and visit us at the booth and, and talk to us and we’ll show what we have. Dave (56m 31s): Yeah, perfect. And I think that actually yeah, we’ll we’ll follow up with you on all this and we’ll have the cool thing about this is this episode will be out there for a long time so people can follow up with even if they miss you this year or is it looking like you typically get around each year to, to the shows and do as many as you can? Craig (56m 46s): Yes, we do. Yep. Yep. We went, we’re, last year we went to I believe four shows and we’ve doubled that this year. We’ll go to eight and so yeah, we’ll I think we’ll definitely be on that circuit again next year. Yeah, Dave (56m 57s): That’s cool. What, what do you love just one on the, on the shows? I know, I know Ben Mki, I I chat with him occasionally. What is it about the shows that you love? Is there, you know, one thing that really sticks out that keeps you guys coming back and adding more Craig (57m 11s): That we get to, to do a face-to-face with people that I like, they can actually, when we talk to somebody that that’s interested in coming to us, that they get to, to meet us in person, know what we are, instead of just booking on a website or just talking to somebody on the phone for a few minutes. Like we, we actually get to meet them and, and have that face to face. And I think that’s really important in, in building a relationship. And because I it like, again, again, when people are coming to you, they’re like, they’re eating all their meals here and, and it’s like family. So I think you should be familiar with, with where you’re going and that’s, that’s what I really enjoy about the, the show is, is just getting to meet people. Dave (57m 46s): Yeah. And that’s what, when you talk to Ben and some of the other people that are presenting at the shows and things, they always talk about that, the family atmosphere and how Ben and the crew, they’re just, they got this traveling show, you know, at least for the fly fishing shows going around the country. Craig (57m 58s): Exactly. Yep. And I, I actually think that’s, that’s how we got in contact with you, wasn’t it last year in Pleasanton. Oh yeah, Dave (58m 4s): Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, Pleasanton. Exactly. Yeah. And I don’t think we’re gonna be down there this year, but, but no, I think that, you know, like we said, the, the shows are great for that and I think we’re gonna continue doing more of this with Ben just to kind of connect people like we’re doing now. Craig (58m 17s): Yeah, yeah. The, the, the fly Ben, the fly fishing show, they do a great job of putting on just a, a specific show that everybody who fly fishes are as interesting and or as interested in fly fishing should do. It’s just you, it’s to see so many different things and, and they also, it’s not just vendors and booths, but they have great presentations and, and classes on techniques and, and then, you know, casting demonstrations and yeah, it’s, it, it’s, it’s really a, a fun atmosphere for people that are into fly fishing. Yeah, Dave (58m 46s): For sure. Nice. All all right guys, we’ll we’ll leave it there. Thanks again. You know, Becky Warren, Craig for all the time today, this has been great and we’ll be excited to keep in touch with you and put all this together. So thanks for your time. Craig (58m 59s): Yep, thank you. It was great. Great being on again. Yeah, thanks for having us. 4 (59m 2s): Thank you. Dave (59m 4s): Alright, you know what to do, you know what to do right now. If you’re interested in this trip, you can send me an email or you can just go the link in the show notes, wetly swing.com/dryly west. That’ll take you to a landing page Dryly West where you can sign up and just get your email and name there and we’ll follow up with you on availability details. If you’re interested in big Browns rainbows, dryly action, everything on the river, floating the river in Majestic Montana, and heading back to the cabin at the end of the day, along with me and the crew, this is the place to be. So check in, let me know. All right, I’m gonna get outta here. Hope you enjoyed this episode and look forward to catching you on that next one. It looks like we might have big whole River Foundation talking more like we talked with Craig today. Dave (59m 47s): I find out more of what we can do to connect, to give back to this area and just, just have more of a impact on everything. Alright, I’m gonna get outta here. Thanks for stopping In today. Hope you have a great afternoon, fantastic evening or wonderful morning, and we’ll see you on the next episode. Talk to you soon. 5 (1h 0m 4s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly, swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing.com.