737 | Fly Fishing the Gunnison with John Radle – Bauer Fly Reels, Salmonfly Hatch, Black Canyon

Dave (2s): Across this country, many rivers see heavy fishing pressure. But like our national parks, a little effort can lead to a completely different experience. Today we’re heading into one of the most iconic rivers, the Gunnison, and we’re going to uncover the best way to escape the crowds, immerse yourself in the wild canyon, and tap into some of the most amazing dry fly fishing this legendary water has to offer. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip And what you can do to give back to fish species we all love. How’s it going? I’m Dave Host for the We Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid, Grew up around a little fly shop and created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts in this country Today, John Rad, general manager for Bauer and Winston now is at Sims, has been a guide, has done quite a bit of things out there. Dave (54s): He is gonna talk about the Gunnison. We’re gonna go pretty deep into the Gunnison, this amazing river journey where you gotta hike in miles, you gotta hike your boat in, you know, a mile down the canyon. And we talk about how good the fishing is here. So we’re gonna find out what this is all like, what sort of experience you need to get through the white water in this remote canyon. We’re also going to find out where a big trout lie in this river, how you can find them in the canyon by looking for splashes on the wall, what this stonefly hatch is all about. And, and also we’re gonna find out how to choose the right weight for a reel for your next adventure. We’re gonna talk about that balance in the reel. It is something that I’m not sure we always think about balancing the reel and it’s gonna be a good one. Dave (1m 38s): Plus we gonna hear the story of John Bauer Bauer Reel’s founder, how he was a Porsche race car driver, and how he uses some of the tech in those Porsches to create the Bauer reel you use today. All right, finally, we’ve got a Gunnison podcast for you. Let’s put it together. Here we go. Here he is, John Rale. How you doing John? John (2m 1s): I’m good man. Thanks for having me on the podcast this morning. Dave (2m 3s): Yeah, yeah. Thanks for setting some time here. We are gonna jump into quite a bit today. It’s, I think the challenge is gonna be to reign in the the topics because you’re in a pretty cool place in Montana. You know, the big hole, the Beaverhead, a bunch of famous waters. Plus you are working for Sims now you’ve been with Bauer Winston, all that stuff. So we’re gonna talk reels and gear as well. But maybe take us back real quick. I always love to start out on the fly fishing piece just to see how you came into where you are today. Have you been doing this a while or are you, you know what I mean? Or do you get started later in life? John (2m 36s): Yeah, totally. No, I was pretty fortunate to get introduced to it earlier on. No one in my family really fly fishes, so that was always, that was kind of a, I had an interesting start to it. I grew up in Austin, Texas, so not, there’s a little bit of a fly fishing scene there, but nothing, it wasn’t super big when I was growing up back in like the early two thousands in Austin. So my first introduction to fly fishing was actually on a family road trip up to Colorado. Saw a couple guys fly fishing the San Miguel River in the southwest part of the state and was like, that looks awesome. So pestered my dad for a while to get a, to get a trip. And he reluctantly got a half day trip up for Cutthroat Chow And we ended up just walking this real tiny cudi stream and throwing dry flies. John (3m 27s): And I had an absolute blast, had a great guide that day and that was really my introduction to fly fishing. After that, my grandpa used to work for 3M and so that was back in the days when 3M owned scientific anglers. And so I got one of those like couple hundred dollars super beginner SA kits. And so I had like a five six way sa rod with a plastic reel and I beat the hell outta that thing man. I fished so many panfish and bass and really just kind of figured it out via trial and error and YouTube university. And that was kind of my intro, which super fortunate to get into it that way. John (4m 8s): Right. Dave (4m 9s): And then eventually, when did the, that whole idea come to be where you thought like, wow, I could actually do this for a living? John (4m 16s): Yeah, totally. I was pretty big into baseball growing up and so a large portion of my life was consumed by that. And then I had a elbow injury that I suffered my like sophomore year of high school. And that was kind of really the point in which I was like, well, I don’t have baseball to do all summer now. And so I kind of started being like, well, maybe I can fly fish and maybe I can get outta this Texas heat. And so I started pesting some fly shops that I frequented while I was up in Colorado over the summer times and ended up getting a position with one of them. And so I started working up at the Telluride Angler pretty early on over in southwest Colorado. John (4m 56s): And so just started off in the shop for them and kind of doing stuff around the shop. And then once the retail game started getting a little bit boring, I was always like, man, I really wanted a guide. And so got into guiding and then kind of worked half in the shop, half guiding for a few years and then kind of eventually went full-time guiding for a year or two throughout my time in college. And so I was fortunate enough to be able to bounce between Telluride, Colorado and the summers working. And then Postman Montana in the fall and spring going to school up here at Montana State. Dave (5m 34s): Oh, Montana State. Okay. Right on. So, and then did the, is that a natural transition when you, it sounds like, you know, you get into the fly shop, which is a great place to be. You get into the guiding eventually and then, and then you get into kind of the real, the, I don’t, I’m not sure what your role was there at Winston and, but maybe talk about that. Is that like the next transition where you kind of jump out of the guiding into something else? John (5m 57s): Yeah, totally. Yeah, so that’s kind of a funny one. I, you know, I had plans to go back down to Colorado and guide and kind of help out around the shop over at to when I graduated. And then, you know, as life does, I ended up staying up in Montana and so I started looking for jobs up here and always been a fan of RO Winston, always been a fan of those fly rods. Didn’t know a lot about Bauer actually getting into it, but drove over to Winston one day and handed my resume to Jeff Evans, who was the president of the company at the time, and somehow got an interview and Jeff and I kind of hit it off And he, you know, they made me the offer to be, I guess my title wise at Winston Bauer was general manager of Bauer. John (6m 43s): But I mean, tiles are pretty fluffy there. It’s, it’s really all hands on deck. It’s a smaller company and a really good group of people that just kind of makes it happen in that building. And so I was fortunate enough to spend two years over there at Bauer Fly reels doing a little bit of a mixed bag of everything. Dave (6m 60s): Right. And I, I think I just saw out there at least, I mean there’s lots of cool awards. I think the, one of the saltwater reels from Bauer won an award. Right. Were you into everything reels, like kind of all types saltwater fresh or how’d that look as far as your, your role? John (7m 16s): Yeah, yeah. So I was kind of involved in product development for all of the reels that we do. So that saltwater project was actually a large portion of kind of my time spent at Bauer. So yeah, we were super proud of the SLT and how well it’s done so far. I think consumer feedback on that reel has been really good. And it won best salt reel for fly fisherman mag, which was a pretty, pretty awesome award to get presented for that project. And yeah, we’re excited to see kind of how that, how that project plays out over, you know, several years. I, I don’t think great saltwater reels are determined by how they do in the first year. It’s how they do in the 20th year, but really excited for how that project turned out. Dave (7m 58s): Yeah, okay. And, and the, it’s interesting ’cause the reels, I feel like, you know, the rods are, we’ve talked a lot about rods on this. We probably don’t talk as much about reels ’cause I think reels are, especially with trout fishing, I think you think, well it’s a reel, hold your line, you know, what else does it need to do? Yeah. Right. And the saltwater is different, you know, and then some of these bigger species, obviously having a drag is, is really important. But talk about that, I guess maybe Bauer, maybe talk about Bauer and Winston first Bauer, you know, what are they most known for, do you think in, in the fly fishing, you know, space? John (8m 29s): Yeah, totally. So it was started by a gentleman named John Bowers from Washington, Oregon area. He, his professional career was racing Porsches. So I think that’s kind of where Bowers history is pretty unique. And the concept behind the flywheel is very, it’s, it’s unique. It’s a unique story for the flywheel space in the fly fishing space. And so when he retired from racing, he, he loved building widgets, loved being part of the engineering and actual like performance aspect of the cars wasn’t just a driver, right. And so he, you know, he needed to kind of fill that void in his life And he started manufacturing fly reels more as a hobby when he started. John (9m 10s): But just to kind of paint that background picture, a lot of the original clutch mechanism and drag mechanism for the bowerly reels of like the early two thousands was inspired by, you know, brake systems on Porsches. And so you have this super unique clutch design that each part is manufactured specifically to do a job within that. And it’s, it’s not just a one way clutch bearing piece that was bought off the shelf, you know, from Japan or from here in the US that gets slapped into the reel that performs the function of that clutch. It’s this really technical, very unique kind of design piece that really made a big splash in the fly fishing space when it was first introduced. John (9m 54s): And so you have reels like the M four or the M series, most notably M four, which is a super popular fly reel from Bauer back in the day that people still covet and cherish and kind of paints this really cool history and lineage Bauer fly reels. And then the company was bought in 2016 by Winston Fly Rods. And so when the company was purchased it was moved over to Twin Bridges. And I would say it kind of marked a transition point in the history of Bauer. Bauer had been around for a while, but I think it was kind of becoming a little bit of a GEs stagnant company in the fly fishing space. Just wasn’t much attention to, it was a little more niche. And so after Winston had purchased it kind of, you know, that’s when you saw a big aesthetic change in the way the fly reels looked with the introduction of the RVR series and really tried to bring that company and kind of put it back at the forefront of innovation, which it had been sitting in that throne for quite a few years, you know, in direct competition with Abel and other high-end fly reels. John (10m 55s): So kind of cool to be a part of that project and that mission over there in the Winston building. You know, I think Bowie’s still got a lot of potential and a lot of awesome things down in the pipeline, but just as kind of far as the original flywheels getting from where they used to be to where they are now. That’s a little bit of the story. Dave (11m 14s): Yeah, that’s cool. That is a really cool story. So Porsche, is he And he was a, he was a racer. John (11m 19s): Yeah. So he drove for him. I think he won a Grand Prix in like 1988 or something like that, but Oh wow. Dave (11m 25s): That’s John Bauer. John (11m 26s): Yeah, that’s John Bauer. That’s the namesake of the company. He’s a super interesting individual. Dave (11m 30s): He’s still around these days. John (11m 31s): He is, he is. Yeah. I’ve gotten the pleasure of speaking to him on the phone a handful of times and he’s a great guy. Dave (11m 36s): Right on. That is really cool. Okay, so we got a little bit of the Bauer story there. And so what is on the reels itself? So you know, the drag, you talked a little bit about that, I think weight can be very important, right? Depending on what rod you’re using. What else is the, why is the reel, what else does it function? Like how else would a you separate like a really high-end good reel versus say a reel that doesn’t have as many features or benefits? John (11m 59s): Yeah, totally. You know, I think with we’re talking trout, it’s, so it’s a little bit more, you know, nitty gritty picking hairs. Yeah, yeah. But in the, in the saltwater game, a lot of this stuff does like you like, kind of like you referenced earlier, David, it really comes into play and details matter and performance matters. So a lot of what you think about when you’re manufacturing a salt water reel is gonna be kind of like broken down into like, I would say two main buckets. One bucket’s gonna be user interface. So like how easy is this reel to hold? Like is the knob comfortable while you’re reeling in 200 yards backing? Is the arbor size large enough to pick up backing quickly and store enough backing on that fly rail for it to function while during the fight? John (12m 47s): You know, is the weight good? Does it sit on the fly rod in, in an appropriate manner and counterbalance that rod appropriately? And then does it look good? Right? Like that’s a big aspect to it as well. So there’s kind of this like user interface, how do your hands function with the product? And then there is the actual internal and the fish stopping capabilities that fly reel. And so with that comes a lot of reliability that we try to bake into it. Whether or not that reel is sealed or not, you know, is a big deciding factor of a lot of things. You know, there’s TBOs out there in the world, those are, those are kind of more of an open cork drag system and those are super reliable, right? So that’s one avenue to take towards stopping a fish in a salt water setting. John (13m 31s): We kind of chose with the SLT to go a seal drag system, which poses I would say some more challenges in making that perform correctly. But really cool concept when you get it to work right? You know, having a reel that is practically maintenance free that you can go use in the salt is pretty beneficial on big trips. Dave (13m 52s): So with the salt water reels or just reels in general, there’s, it sounds like there’s kind of two types. There’s either it’s a seal drag or it’s a not a seal. I mean there’s other types but, or it’s not a seal drag. I mean, talk about that. What, why would you guys, it seems like the seal drag would be the one that would make more sense since it’s totally sealed, right? You don’t have to worry about cleaning. Is that the difference? Or maybe explain that a little bit. John (14m 12s): Yeah, totally. Yeah. So seal drag just would refer to no water is really able to come into that system in a, you know, in a perfect world. The other, you know, the challenge with that is If you build something to not let water in, it doesn’t let water out very. So making sure that system stays dry and functions well in really wet environments is pretty important. You know, a maybe a more classic style reel, like an open system. The beauty there is simplicity. Usually those systems are built to be taken apart and greased and there’s a lot more maintenance involved in those. But you know, that’s a, it’s a proven mechanical system for salt water. Dave (14m 52s): Are the majority of reels out there one or the other type? John (14m 55s): I would say that the industry is leaning toward more sealed systems now. You know, If you look at the hatches and the Mayos and a lot of these Nautilus more popular salt water reels, they’re all gonna be using a seal drag system. Really If you look back in the day, like the old M series from Bauer, older Ables, TBOs, you know, even t bor, high steel drag systems. But they have open, you know, they have open drag systems. Dave (15m 23s): They do. Okay, that makes sense. Well we’re not gonna go deep into everything reels today ’cause I wanna, I wanna keep, and I talk fishing too as well here, but, but I’m loving this because, you know, the other company too we could just touch on here briefly is, is Winston, you know, which is maybe, maybe, you know what I mean, If you say some of the biggest names out there, I mean it’s definitely one of ’em. Do you also know a little bit of history of, of Winston? I think it’s, it’s got, it’s been out there a while, right? John (15m 48s): It has been, yeah. We’re coming up on a hundred here pretty soon. Oh wow. The company is, I don’t know how I’m, I’m not as dialed on the Winston history side of things. Yeah, okay, gotcha. So don’t want to go into the nitty gritty details on that one and say something wrong or incorrect. Yeah. But yeah, super long history Dave (16m 9s): We’ll find another guest to follow up on the history of, of Winston. We’ll we’ll check in with you on that, but No, but it is obviously a great company, right? I mean they have, you know, I guess Winston, so they’re, what, what are they most known for, do you think? What, what is the Winston, you know, I mean they’re known for a lot I think obviously quality and all that. But yeah. Is there one thing that really people think of Winston about? John (16m 29s): Yeah, I think If you ask that question to, you know, people in a fly shop, they would probably say the Winston feel is what would come out. Which is kind of a arbitrary hard thing to wrap your head around. But I would say the best, the best way I could describe the Winston feel is it’s, is it’s a lineage of rod builders who take great pride in producing fine fly rods. And you know, you can talk action when you talk about the Winston feel. And sure Winston’s are known for loading deeper and having maybe a little bit more sweet action, a little bit slower action. But I think when you, when you cast a Winston fly rod, you’re feeling 90 plus years of pride and attention to detail that has been carried through from Rod builder to Rod Builder all the way from the days of San Francisco to the days and twin bridges. John (17m 23s): And so when someone says Winston Field, I think that’s what they’re talking about. 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You know, and one thing we’ve talked a lot about is, you know, the feel, especially with some of the casting instructors we’ve had on that have talked about that. Just like you said, I think that that full action rod, right, where you’re feeling the bend into the handle can be very helpful, especially for people that are new to, you know, casting, right? So they can get a feel for the, the actual line. So I think that’s really something that we’ve talked about a lot. But, so, you know, Winston, shout out obviously we’ll talk a little more about that today as well. But also let’s just throw the other company that you’re working for now, Sims. So you know, obviously you know a huge company that’s doing great things. Dave (18m 57s): There’s been some big stories about them recently, but maybe talk about that. How, how was that for you, the transition over? Was that just a, an easy transition to make there? John (19m 6s): It’s still pretty fresh. I’ve only, I’ve only been there for a little over a month now. Oh wow. Yeah. So yeah, this whole big transition between Winston and Bower River to Sims kind of recently went down. But man, loving it over there, great group of people take a lot of pride in the products they produce. I’m a little less involved with product development over in that building A lot more on the data management supply chain side. But loving it, man, it’s, it’s been great. Dave (19m 33s): And so data, without getting too nerdy about it, data management, supply chain, what, what does that, what does that entail? Well I guess you’re only a month in, so it’s probably gonna change right as you go, but is it sounds like you’re gonna be more inside, is that the idea but not as much using of the gear or how does that look? John (19m 49s): Yeah, yeah. So definitely a little, little bit less outward facing at this new position. It’s just to keep it high level, but basically when, you know, when you go out and as a consumer and place an order through whatever channel you decide, right? So that might be D two C go to a special, you know, to go to a fly shop and buy it or go to, you know, a big box where like Bass Pro and buy it, right? We take all that data from all the consumers that are purchasing in different areas and you roll that into a forecast. And then my job is to kind of understand that forecast, build, buy plans off of it and make sure that the product continues to show up on time. So when you go and decide to buy your next pair of, you know, G four Z waiters, Dave, that they show up on your front door or at the fly shop that you go to try ’em on at And we, they have all the sizes and such that they need. Dave (20m 41s): Yep, gotcha. Yeah, and I, I can imagine as Sims has grown into one of the largest, I mean not just fly fishing, right? I mean there’s all sorts of stuff going that it, that must be quite a, quite a position to keep track of all that. Right. And is Sims shipping all over the world now? Is that kind of, you’re probably new to it, so you’re probably learning about that, but is that the case? John (21m 0s): Yes sir. Yeah. Yeah. We strip ship all over the world, so international business is a pretty, is a good segment of our business for us. And primarily we do most of our business over here in, you know, north America. But a ton of businesses done overseas as well. Dave (21m 16s): Alright, perfect. Well we’ll leave some of the gear talk, maybe we’ll hit on that as we go. But I want to touch base a little bit on, you know, where you’re at and some of the, the rivers that you’re fishing. ’cause we’re gonna be doing some cool stuff. We have the big hole that’s something that’s come up recently, you know, in the last couple years just with changes in the populations over there. Right. And, and so we’re gonna have the big hole foundation on to talk more about that. But let’s hear about, you know, what is your home waters like, what are you fishing and what, where were you guiding, was that Colorado and now are you kind of more hitting the Montana area? John (21m 48s): Yeah, yeah. So I was guiding in Southwest Colorado, so primarily on the free stand rivers around Telluride area, which would be San Miguel, Dolores, and those two drainages, there’s a bunch of creeks over there that feed those two systems and it’s a really fun place to go If you enjoy high elevation, drive, fly fishing, pretty great destination. So I spent some time there and then spent a lot of time on the Gunnison as well. So lower Gunnison, which would be the Gunnison Gorge Wilderness area. And then even the section below that that flows from Pleasure park down into Delta area. Dave (22m 23s): Were you guiding, were you guiding on the Gunnison? John (22m 26s): I was, yes sir. Dave (22m 27s): Okay, cool. Yeah, I mean I, I think that’s another one of those rivers that’s probably as big of a name as, you know, the big hole or the, the Beaverhead. Right. Is there a big difference between the Gunnison and some of those other Montana streams where you’re at now? John (22m 39s): Yeah, the Gunison iss a pretty unique river man. It holds a special place in my heart. I think it’s, it’s one of them premier dry fly fisheries that doesn’t get talked about as much as other places around the country. Kind of enjoy keeping it that way a little bit. But it’s, you know, it’s a great place to go experience and it’s remote enough in that part of southwest Colorado where I feel like the pressure has been, you know, rather stable on it over the last several years rather than, you know, we’ve seen a big bump in angling pressure in Montana, even in my time up here from when I started college until now. So it’s cool to kind of have those places that have, you know, stayed a little more consistent. Dave (23m 21s): Yeah. And is that because the Gunnison is, is basically hard to, right, there’s some canyon sections getting into it. Is that thing maybe talk about that, is that why it’s, it’s hasn’t had the pressure so far? John (23m 32s): Yeah, definitely in the gorge, in the wilderness area, logistics to go float that are, are pretty intensive. Getting rafts down into that section is, is a trip and it’s, you have to drive ’em in on a dirt road that is, you know, you have to have four by four capabilities to get in there. And then from there there’s about a mile and a half walk down to the river itself that you hike down with clients when you’re guiding it. But all the gear gets mule packed in night before. So they’ll bring all the gear in on trailers and then loaded up on mules, gets packed down and in. And then you walk down with your clients the next day and set the boats up and start a three day journey down class three and class four whitewater in a canyon. John (24m 16s): Wow. It’s pretty awesome. Dave (24m 18s): Wow, this is really cool. So, and this was the area that you were, when you were guiding, were you doing a mix of areas or were you specifically focusing on this, this area that you’re talking about here? It’s hard to get into. John (24m 28s): For the month of June, I was pretty focused on this area. After June I would, you know, July and August I would kind of move more of my efforts toward either the lower gun center or back up toward Telluride. But in June it’s a pretty spectacular place. That’s when the salmon fly hatch typically happens. And if you’re lucky enough to be in there when that hatch is happening, it’s, it’s a pretty insane place. Dave (24m 55s): Wow. And that’s why the June, right, so you’ve got the salmon fly hatch is going strong in that June period. John (25m 0s): Yeah, yeah. All of your stone flies kind of start going that time of the year. So it’ll kick off with salmon flies and then kind of move into golden stones and Sally fishing, which is equally as good or if not better, more consistent. And so you get a pretty good three week window there where the fish are coming out of their spring behavior, early spring behavior and starting to move up shallow and want to eat the big bugs and the water’s warming up and they’re getting really happy. It’s funny, it’s, there’s like a weak lull after the stone flies really go where those fish are so full from just gorging themselves on nymphs and adults for weeks now that the fishing actually kind of slows down and then it picks back up, I would say like mid-July. John (25m 46s): But it’s pretty spectacular when it’s full on in there, Dave (25m 49s): When it’s gone. I’m interested in this, this canyon section that you’re talking about. I want to kind of hit on this a little more. Where would somebody go if they’re listening now and they’re thinking, man, this is something I’d love to get into. Is there a person, a shop place you would direct them? John (26m 3s): Yeah, absolutely. There’s quite a few operations down there. I worked for Gunnison River Expeditions in my time down there, so you can always reach out to them. They’re kind of the main operation out of Pleasure Park and Outer Grange owns that Al’s great dude. He’s been down there for forever and they’re kind of, they’re also one of the few operations that holds Jetboat permits, which allow you to drive up to the mouth of the, and float what we would kind of call the last, it’s the last day of the Gorge float most of the time. But If you want to get into going down the river on a trip, I would reach out to Gunton River Expeditions or Black Canyon anglers. They would be the I’d recommend. John (26m 44s): And it’s a pretty awesome trip, man. There’s only, I think there’s only four or five operations that hold permits to do that. And your days are pretty limited in how many permits are allocated per outfitter. So B, CA and GRE have the most of everybody, so your day options are a little bit, little bit more expansive with those two. Dave (27m 4s): Gotcha. And is there a chance to, could you do this If you had the skills for the Whitewater, do this on your own, get a permit? John (27m 11s): Absolutely. Yeah. So actually as a DIY angler, it’s not permitted you, you have to go sign in and get camp sites, but Oh Dave (27m 18s): Cool. So anybody can go. John (27m 20s): Totally. Yeah. And if you’re willing to hook your gear down there or pay for a meal pack, it’s, it’s definitely worth it. It’s a pretty awesome DIY trip as well. Dave (27m 28s): And where is that? So I’m looking at the Black Canyon and, and is it a national park? Is that a national park in there too? John (27m 33s): I believe so, yes. Dave (27m 35s): Right, right. So, okay, so this area that you’re talking about, where you’re packing in, that’s what would be the, you know, the tip off point. Where would you go in, what’s the area called the Gunn and Gorge Wilderness? John (27m 45s): Yeah, so you go in Chucker Trail, which is gonna be the first access when it moves from Black Canyon National Park, I think, into the Gunn and Gorge wilderness area. And so you use that trail, that’s your, that’s your put in. It’s pretty, that’s kind of as high up as really you can drop a rubber boat in. People will kayak that Black Canyon area up above. But it’s, that’s like world class kayaking. Once you get down to chucker, the river opens up a little bit more through that zone and then you’re able to get a full size rubber boat down it Dave (28m 18s): Full size. Okay. And then, and then it’s a three day trip. Is that just because it’s, you know, a certain amount of miles or could you stay longer in there? John (28m 26s): It’s really not that long of a float. It’s only, I believe, 14 miles from Chucker down to Pleasure Park. It’s just, you know, I think to fully kind of, it’s hard to even grasp what you’re floating through in three days, but really to immerse yourself in it and experience it, definitely doing the two nights in there that you’re allotted is worth it. Oh, Dave (28m 48s): Is it two light? Do you have a, a max day you can get in there? John (28m 51s): I believe so, yeah. So I think two nights is the most, you can really stay in there. I wouldn’t quote me on that a hundred percent. Yeah, sure. But that seems like the right information. Dave (28m 60s): We’ll do some research. Yeah, yeah, this is good. Okay, so this is awesome. Yeah, I’m looking at some photos of it now. It looks spec spectacular. It’s kind of a mix of mountainous canyons with, you know, and you could see it’s kind of desert, you know, arid right. Sort of thing. But it’s cool. Okay, so we got another, another bucket list. I mean I’ve heard about the Guston for years. Never fished it, but this is why, this is why it’s one of those names is that this is kinda a cool and it’s coming out of a national park, right. So it’s totally protected. So the fishing, so the dry fly action, is this your typical fishing wise? How is it different say from other streams either in Colorado or maybe where you’re at now? John (29m 35s): Yeah, definitely. It depends on flows, you know, lower water years. I’ve done that river at 300 CFS and I’ve done it a couple thousand. And it changes a lot. You know, at 300 those fish spread out a lot more. They’re gonna be kind of bank to bank. There’s a lot of mid river structure that they can hold on. And that’s a fun game to play. I would say the fishing’s a little less consistent when the water’s lower, especially during big bug season, just ’cause you don’t have that like single shot that you’re just hitting the whole day. You know, when that river bumps up to, you know, a thousand to 2000 CFS, everything gets a little bit more sporty. But those fish are kind of forced up on the canyon walls and that’s really where the big bug fishing shines. John (30m 20s): We’ll actually, you know, as you’re rowing down with clients, you’ll be looking at the walls and you’ll be looking for splash marks on the walls. ’cause when those fish eat a salmon fly or a golden stone, they splash water up on the walls and you’re like, oh, that’s where one’s sittings. So Wow. You know, instruct your clients to get the, get the flies up on that wall and it’s, it’s wild how well that works man. Dave (30m 38s): No kidding. So you literally just whack the wall with your fly cast into the wall? John (30m 42s): Yeah, it’s just bounce it off the wall, let it hit the water, man, that’s so awesome. And let it ride as close to the wall as possible. It’s pretty spectacular. Dave (30m 51s): That is cool. Yeah, that that’s, this sounds like the ultimate kind of guide trip too, because you’re not worried about snagging your, your flight necessarily on a branch right against the bank. It sounds like it’s, is it all canyon or does it change throughout the area? Throughout this run, this 14 miles? John (31m 5s): It changes. It ebbs and flows. There’s, I would say the most notable change kind of happens. There’s an upper section that is pretty canyons that you would fish typically first half of the first day or the first day. And then you drop into Ute Park, which is gonna be your kind of middle section of the river that opens up in Ute Park. And it would be maybe a little bit, I would compare that a little bit more to like standard western fishing. You know, a lot of those casts remind me a lot of fishing, the big hole you’re gonna have, not necessarily willows, but just brush overhanging the banks, mid river rocks that those fish will hold on. And the variety kind of increases there. John (31m 45s): I would say. Not to say that there’s not walls in that area as well, but it’s just not as Walden and tight. And then when you get below that, you really get into the rapids, the notable ones. And that’s where you have cable and a couple of the bigger rapids in that section that are, you know, even I got nervous every single time going through the Oh really? And you can do it as many times as possible and you always get a little nervous. Dave (32m 10s): What’s cable like? Describe cable a little. Is this one where you’re, you know, class 4, 3 4 and you’re going into like a big hole or just super technical? What, what does it look like? John (32m 19s): Most of the rapids in the go in the gorge are a little more technical than they are just big. It’s not like these gigantic, massive holes that just engulf boats and they disappear Dave (32m 29s): Not to Colorado. John (32m 30s): Yeah, totally. It’s a little bit different than that. So a lot more piecing your way through rocks. A lot of two, three move rapids. But cables this class four, you’re kind of in the middle of the gorge at this point. So If you can think, you know, 500, 800 foot plus walls on either side of you and you’re just sitting in the middle of it in a 13 foot raft going through, you kind of start off on the right hand side. That’s Dave (32m 55s): It. Tight. John (32m 56s): Yeah, it’s really, it’s tight in there and there’s a lot of big boulders. So a lot of these rapids, it happen when it rains really hard in there and then the rocks and the bank on the side slide down the canyon and into the river. And so that’s kind of how a lot of these guys form. And so cable’s an interesting one at you set up on the right hand side and you’re kind of in this slick up against this big wall that actually fishes. Great. Dave (33m 18s): Are you fishing are, are you making a few casts before you drop it? John (33m 21s): Oh absolutely man. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. You’re, you know, you’re fishing like one X or OX right? Just straight to your fly. So I, I don’t know, we’ve definitely had a few that you kind of go into the drop on that rapid and usually they don’t come out the other side with you. But no, it’s always fun to try. Dave (33m 39s): Yeah, that’s it. Wow. So you’re dropping in. So basically you come in, it’s tight, you drop in and I’m looking at some videos now of it. This is the cool thing is that we’ll get some links in the show notes so we can watch, take a look. And I’m gonna be probably watching these for the next few days. ’cause I love, I love looking at the white water video. Right? Have you ever been in there, you know, a little bit like almost dumping or have you been upside down ever? John (33m 60s): I haven’t ever flipped a raft in there, knock on wood. But it definitely can get spicy. Dave (34m 7s): Have you other places? John (34m 8s): I have, yeah. We, you know, we like to take after work laps on the Gallatin when it gets pretty big up here, which is right in the Bozeman area. And so there’s some fun holes that we will play around with and it’s a little bit less consequence than flipping a raft in the gorge. But it’s fun. Carnage is always a good time. Dave (34m 28s): Yeah. I got addicted to these videos of, we were doing a series on drift boats and we, we were covering the Grand Canyon, like the Colorado and these Oh cool. Wooden Doris, right? The, these drift boats. These wood drift boats, they take ’em down. That’s the boat on the Colorado and they’re amazing ’cause they’re decked over so you can flip ’em. So these guys would go through these giant waves and they’d flip their boat upside down, you know, guys would be swimming and then it’d take ’em two minutes and then they’d flip the thing back up. Right. And be, and keep rolling. Unbelievable stuff. John (34m 56s): So cool. Man, those wooden doors are amazing boats. I’m kind of a drift boat nerd and Dave (34m 60s): Oh you are? Oh cool. Those John (35m 1s): Things are Oh cool. Oh, I love boats, dude. Nice. The boat I’ve been rocking the last few years as a road tove. I’ve definitely settled in on that being one of my favorites, but Dave (35m 11s): Yeah. Which one was that again? John (35m 13s): It’s a ro deve, so it’s made, they’re made here in Bozeman Company called Ro or Ro is, yeah, yeah, RO, yeah. Yeah. Robert and Jane make a great boat over here, man. They, they have a pretty cool little company. Gun Dave (35m 28s): On Demark Lodge offers a world-class experience with one of the finest rainbow trout and brown trout fisheries in the world. Their family owned and operated. Missouri River Lodge offers comfortable accommodations, delicious home-cooked meals and personalized service that make you feel like family days on the water are capped off by appetizers, beverages, dinner and stories on the back deck and around the campfire. Book your stay for an unforgettable fly fishing adventure where memories are made and the fish stories are real. You can head over right now to wet fly swing.com/on DeMar, that’s O-N-D-E-M-A-R-K on DeMar right now to book your magical Missouri River trip. Dave (36m 10s): I’ve never rode a row, but definitely we’ve, yeah, we’ve seen ’em out there and stuff. There’s a bunch of great, it’s kind of cool. The drift boat scene is cool because it’s, you know, it’s been evolving, right? You got boats specifically for Montana, right. And the low side and then you got all these different in between the skiffs and it’s kind of cool. I’m, I’m more, you know, the Western style with the big higher side getting ready for whitewater. But have you ever seen that in, in the Gunnison? Are guys able to slide hard boats down there in any place and go through that section? John (36m 40s): You can run a hard boat on the lower Gunnison. So the section going from pleasure park down and then a pretty crazy scene that I’ve been fortunate enough to be a part of a couple times is since GRE has jet boat permits, we will actually slide drift boats onto the front deck of a 16 or 18 foot jet and run the boat upstream about three miles to the mouth of the canyon and you can drop it off the jet boat. And then that’s an awesome, like three quarter day trip to do from there down. Oh Dave (37m 12s): Cool. With some whitewater, John (37m 13s): There’s some like little stuff in there, but nothing of considerable nature. But that’s kind of the cool part about the, the gorge is that you have to do it in a raft. You have to break that raft down in order to go float that there’s, it’s not very accessible for, for a hard boat. I will say over beers a few nights in campfires we have talked about taking, we have a GRE, they have like a little two man hide skiff that is a little fiberglass like sneaker drift boat. And we have talked about putting that on a game cart and hiking it down in there. But I think that would be pretty highly frowned upon slash pretty dangerous. But Dave (37m 51s): It’d be, that’s like a, like a 10 foot drift foot or something like that. John (37m 54s): Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, Dave (37m 56s): They have these boats, I can’t remember what they call ’em on the Grand Canyon, but again, crazy stuff. But they, they’re like mini, they’re basically mini Doris and I think they’re like nine or 10 feet, or maybe they’re even eight. They’re crazy. They’re super, they’re one man drift boats and these guys are going down through the giant Colorado in them. So that would be one that I would bet you could get down there. Slide that thing in there. John (38m 14s): Yeah, that would be pretty cool. I would be really intrigued to see how that boat would be able to get through some of the tight spots in there. But it’d be fun. I’m, I’m all for, I don’t know if, if you’ve been perusing the YouTubes for Whitewater videos, there’s a pretty epic video of two guys taken and I think it’s like an old high side or something down Bear Trap Canyon over here in southwest Montana, which there’s a rapid in there called the kitchen sink that is gigantic and it’s a pretty epic video man. Dave (38m 45s): Really? Okay, well we’ll look that one up too. Yeah, the kitchen sink. Awesome. Class four. I see it. Good, good. Upper Madison. So that’s on the upper Madison? John (38m 54s): Yeah, it’s through. So there’s the famous section of the Madison that goes from the slide where Kelly’s place is down to Ennis and then that flows into Ennis Lake and then that section below Ennis Lake where it comes out of the dam, it’s in there in the canyon and it’s rowdy in there. Man, Dave (39m 12s): It’s awesome. I’m gonna be spending my day watching videos of, of Whitewater. This is great. Cool. Yeah, I I love the talk too man. I, I love the, the drift boats, the rat, I mean it’s all good right? I think that that’s kinda the cool thing about all this. Can people also go down into this Gunnison section and just like do a hiking? Is there a trail where they can just backpack this 14 mile section? John (39m 31s): Yeah, there’s, there’s quite a few trails that access down below chucker and a couple above. There’s a couple that you need permits for in the National National Park area I believe. And I don’t think it’s, I’m, I might be misspeaking on saying National Park but, but down below in the wilderness area there is I think eight or nine different trails that you can take in to different sections of the river. You can also just walk upstream from pleasure park and the way to access fishing in there can be pretty awesome. That’s definitely, I would say friendlier on years where the snow packs lower and the flows are a little lower. So almost inverse of the boat fishing, you know, boat fishing. John (40m 12s): I would really say you’re shooting for that like 2001 to 2000 zone wade fishing. That 300 zone is really awesome ’cause you can swim across the river and access stuff that’s pretty remote, Dave (40m 25s): Right? Yeah because we’re talking the, the best times in here. Is it fishing wise, what would you say? What is that window to fish this river? Is it open year round? John (40m 33s): I would really say June through end of August is gonna be kind of prime time in there. There’s a lot of variables that go into that, but in general, June, July are probably gonna be your hottest months best months of fish in August. Depending on if monsoon season rolls in hard and strong or not can be kind of touch and go. And then the fall is actually a great time to be there as well Dave (40m 57s): In the fall. Okay. Yeah, this is cool. And, and the Gunnison, yeah. So we’re talking about this section here, but there’s, are there also some sections that are not the canyon section? Have you fished any of those where you can actually drive to or they’re more accessible? John (41m 10s): Yeah, you know, there’s the upper portion of the Gunnison River above Blue Mesa Reservoir. I don’t have as much experience fishing up there. I’ve only done a handful of days, but I would compare that to kind of like fishing the upper snake versus the main stem of the snake. Not that the rivers are the same size at all, but they, they kind of play similarly. So I don’t have as much experience up there. But the lower section down below Pleasure Park is very accessible by drift boat and I love that section. The terrestrial fishing down there can be amazing. It, you’re truly in the desert, so it’s a pretty unique environment to be catching trout in. John (41m 50s): You know, you’re looking at days where you’re getting blasted by sun the entire day and it’s a hundred plus degrees outside and it’s not really what you think of when you think western style trout fishing, but it’s a, it’s a very cool environment. Dave (42m 4s): Yeah, that is, that’s a cool, I think the desert part of the piece of is is awesome about the west. You know, you get these areas that are, you know, forests and stuff like that, but then, yeah, I mean you’ve got a lot of desert, right? Is that what this area is? Is that what, when you think of Western southwestern Colorado, is that kind of what it is as it goes down south I guess into the other states? John (42m 25s): Yeah, it’s lower elevation is very deserty around there. So montero area, it’s in a transition phase from your higher elevation, more mountainous, typical what you would think of Colorado when you think like rocky mountains and high elevation, super green, pretty ultra clear cutthroat stream. That’s really what Telluride, u Ray, Ridgeway area is. And then as you start moving down the mountains and getting into lower elevation, it does turn into desert. Dave (42m 56s): Perfect. Cool. Nice. Well we’re gonna start to take it outta here. We’ve got a segment, kind of our, our gear shout out segment here. We’re gonna get into, and this is great because I think I always love talking gear. We talked boats a little bit and maybe we will go into that. But today this is presented by Pescador on the fly. They have this rod that’s a six piece, they’ve got a few different rods, but they have this rod that’s a six piece fly rod versus say the four piece. So it packs down essentially you could throw it in your pack, in your backpack, just on your bag. And I’ve, I’ve been hearing this, I’m not sure if you’ve heard about this, but I heard in Canada, like some of the flights in there, they’re not allowing you to check or they’re not allowing you to bring on your like four piece anymore for some Oh, interesting. Yeah, they’re making you check it. So I’m not sure if that trend’s gonna continue in other areas, but the cool thing about this is six piece, it actually fits inside your backpack so you don’t have to worry about that. Dave (43m 44s): But so shout out to Pesco first on that. They got a great rod. But for, I wanna talk Sims here a little bit. You’re brand new to it. Were you a Sims person before? Do you know all the gear lineup or is this something where you’re kind of learning about it? John (43m 57s): I’ve been a, I’ve been rocking Sims waiters for a long time now. So big fan of what they’ve been doing over there since kind of the beginning of my fly fishing. Dave (44m 5s): What do you think it is about Sims that put ’em where they are? John (44m 9s): Man, I would say Sims is the original waiter maker. They’ve been doing it here in Bozeman for, for a long time and they have a lot of, a lot of knowledge through trial and error over the years, it gets instilled into every single pair of waiters. And so I would say that’s what, that’s really what makes a pair of sims waiters a pair of sims waiters. Dave (44m 28s): Yeah, I, I think it’s, and I agree. I think that they’ve been doing it while I think that they make a super durable way, I always go to like the boots, not waiter boots, but just hiking boots, you know, it’s like how long should you expect a pair of hiking boots to last? And I always go back to the 10 year thing. I say, you know what, if I get 10 years out of a pair of hiking boots, that’s pretty good. You know, I feel pretty good. Like I got my money’s worth sims waiters, man. I mean I’ve had waiters that have just been abused and beat up and drug through like, and they still don’t leak, you know what I mean? I feel like they’ve mastered that somehow. The durability. Do you find that it’s a big part of it that you, obviously it depends on your use, but the durability is a big part of what they do. John (45m 5s): Yeah, absolutely. I think that kind of goes back to them making ’em for so long. They’ve, the amount of materials that they’ve explored over the years and the, you know, the way in which the seams get taped on the boot feet and also on the waiters. Just that whole recipe for how you make a durable set of or durable waiter definitely has been perfected over the years. So Dave (45m 28s): Yeah. That’s awesome. Are you more a, I’m not sure what you call the difference. Are you the zipper, the front zipper, the newer style? Or you do you like more of the, the normal, the old style waiters where they come up to your chest? John (45m 38s): Oh dude, I’m full on zipper gang. If it allows you to use the restroom when you got like eight layers of clothes on here in the Montana winner. Oh right. I’m, I’m all about it. Dave (45m 48s): Yeah, that’s why it’s so good is that yeah, when you’re in, when you’re in an environment where it’s warm, it doesn’t really matter as much. But yeah, when you’ve got like four layers on, you gotta take four layers off every time. And, and If you like drinking some beverages, then that’s a hassle, right? John (46m 1s): Oh, totally. Yeah, no it’s, it’s pretty nice to have that zip and be able to, yeah, quick and easy access. Dave (46m 8s): That’s it. Okay, well a couple more on the gear stuff. So going back to reels, ’cause I think this is really interesting with the reels, we talked about kinda some of the reels you mentioned the, the SLT, which kind of is winning some awards there, but what do you think is a kind of a common myth anglers have about just fly reels in general? Is there anything that in your time there, you’ve, you heard a lot of that was just kind of a myth that wasn’t really true about reels in general? John (46m 30s): Man, I don’t, I don’t know if necessarily like a myth, but I would say one thing that when you’re factoring in a purchase of a new fly reel, especially if you’re gonna make the jump and go from, you know, that maybe one to $200 price point up to something in the four to $500 range and really spend some money on a fly that you should consider as an angler. And this is where I would say, please go into your local fly shop and give them your business. Like those guys are what makes this industry so special. And so giving them business and letting them kind of shed the light and their local knowledge and expertise on what you should be buying is great. But taking the balance of that flywheel in proportion of the fly route into consideration when you’re purchasing it, is big in a trout setting and a salt water setting. John (47m 16s): And you can get as nerdy or as non nerdy about that as you want. Right. That’s a great point. But I think that’s a pretty, pretty important factor just to the end user experience. Dave (47m 26s): Yep. That is a great reminder why you should go in and check him out because yeah, the, the weight, and especially depending right, if you’re a, if you’ve got a spay rod, you know, we’ve talked a lot about that, but yeah, just really any rod, right? It’s got a balance. Otherwise, what happens If you have a reel that’s either too heavy or too light? What, what does that do to you as the angler? John (47m 44s): Yeah, yeah, totally. So a reel that’s too heavy is gonna lift the tip of that rod up, right? So If you put that rod kind of in your hand in a neutral position where the cork’s laying in your hand and just relax your hand, a heavier reel is gonna take the tip of that rod and move it upwards. And a really light reel is gonna allow that rod to the tip of that rod to move downwards. Right. And so If you think about that from a fishing perspective, I would say there’s some, there’s definitely some applications where you want a heavier fly reel. I prefer a heavier fly reel in a salt water setting. I’ve heard a lot of guys at Euro NPH say that they like a heavier reel. Right? Because it’s gonna lift the tip of that rod. John (48m 24s): Kind of reasoning behind why I like a heavier or heavier reel in salt water settings is you’re not taking many casts. So it’s not like you’re swinging that system around all day long. A lot more point shoot. So when you’re on the front of that flat skiff and sitting there all day and waiting for, you know, you’re one shot at a permit or you’re maybe like 10 to 30 shots at redfish for the day, having the tip of that rod angled up and being able to release your hand and not have to worry about that line dripping down in front of the polling skiff is pretty key I think for just maintaining, for not fatiguing your hand and your wrist and your arm throughout the day of holding that product. So that might be a scenario in which you want to have your reel going into more of a trout setting. John (49m 6s): That’s where having a reel that’s properly balanced, where, you know, you put your hand on that cork or your finger at the front of that cork and that rod lays completely level. And the idea behind that is it just again, reduces fatigue on your arm and your hand while you’re casting repetitively all day long like you do in a trout scenario. And so that, that’s kind of the methodology behind how you do that. Dave (49m 29s): That makes sense. And you, where do you put your finger? You hold the cork near the top. Where do you put to feel if it’s balanced right for say a trout rod? John (49m 36s): Yeah, I like, so if you’re taking, let’s just take a cigar grip for just to kind of like help envision this, but If you put your finger at the edge of the cork on the cigar grip kind of in between the, where the hook keeper, that gap between the hook keeper and the edge of the cork, put your finger right on the edge of the cork in that zone. And that’s kind of usually where I like to see a good balance point. Dave (49m 59s): Gotcha. So right up front. So you want your finger right on the tip of that, that cork right at the top end of it. Okay. Yeah. And then if it, but If you want it balanced, then yeah, it should sit kind of horizontal balance just Right. That’s kinda what you’re looking for with trout rod. John (50m 12s): Yeah. Yeah, it’s typically, and that’ll just give you a really good feel in hand, a little bit lighter system overall and like I said, kind of reduce that hand fatigue while you’re casting all day. Dave (50m 22s): Yeah, perfect. Okay. Yeah, that’s an awesome tip. I think that’s always something that not everybody thinks about, you know what I mean? Mean that’s definitely a good one. So, cool. Anything else you wanted to give a shout out on? You know, what we talked about here with, you know, kind of going back just to Bauer Winston feels like we kind of touched the surface. Like I said, we’ll put some links to show notes, but anything we missed there before we kinda get a couple more tips and, and take it out here? John (50m 44s): No man, appreciate the time on the podcast this morning. It’s been great talking with you. I just, only thing I’d reiterate is just go see your local fly shops, buy flies, buy flywheels, buy fly rods. Those guys, I think we had an awesome couple years during Covid where the industry kind of blew up and was doing super good, but those guys still need your business, so go in there and take care of ’em and show your support. Dave (51m 7s): I agree. Yeah, I think that’s always a good reminder is on the shops. That’s super important. Well, I got a couple of random ones before we get outta here. You mentioned at the start baseball and I, I always love hitting on some sports. Yeah, that baseball was one of my sports as well. I wasn’t as good as I always wanted to be, but What were you, what was your position in baseball? John (51m 24s): Yeah, I played shortstop and then I closed a little bit, so that’s what Oh wow. Led to my elbow injury eventually, but Dave (51m 31s): Oh, you’re closer, John (51m 32s): Like to get after pitching a little bit. Yeah, Dave (51m 34s): There you go. And the fact that you were a closer makes me think that you played some upper level. Was this a college ball? Were you, I mean you didn’t have closers That didn’t seem like in the leagues that I played back in the day back in, you know, I mean high school and stuff, but yeah, what was that like? Was how far did you take your career before you got injured? John (51m 51s): Yeah, totally. I, I never made it past high school. That’s kind of when I got injured was in high school. But I played a lot of travel ball growing up and then played two and a half years in high school before I in injured my arm. And then it was kind of like, get surgery and not get to play any other sports for more than a few years and you might get your arm back or you know, let it ride and play football with the boys, which is kind of what I decided to do. Dave (52m 16s): Oh, you did? Yeah. Yeah. What was your, on the pitch as a closer, did you have one pitch? Was there a pitch that kind of threw your arm out or what was it? Do you have something kind of a crazy screwball or a curve ball or something like that? John (52m 27s): I just threw fastballs and curve balls, so kind of lived by a two seamer that moved in a curve ball that broke away and that’s kind of where I partied. But yeah, it was probably being young and not taking care of my arm like I should have and overthrowing it a little bit. Dave (52m 42s): Gotcha. Okay, perfect. Okay. No, this has, this has been great. I think, I think we can leave everything else for maybe the next one we talk more. I want to, you know, check back with you maybe once you get some time at Sims and see how all that’s going. But no, this has been great. I think the Gunnison has been one that, I’m glad we put it on the map here, but maybe before we get out here, just talk about that. Let’s say somebody’s gonna be hitting the Gunnison, let’s just say it’s June summertime here. What are a couple tips you’re giving them before they get out there planning their trip? They’re going in, maybe they’re walking in or they’re doing this big amazing float. What are you telling them before they, to get prepared? John (53m 17s): Yeah, this is gonna sound pretty basic, but just make sure you bring a lot of water or bring away to get water in a really hot environment in there. And the couple, I’ve had a couple days that got a little interesting where I ran outta water on the hike out. So always keep that in mind and just know that you’re in a desert environment. The fishing itself is, is pretty self-explanatory. So is Dave (53m 40s): It pretty easy? Is the fishing once you get in there, is it pretty easy? John (53m 43s): Yeah, I mean I, it it’s still trout fishing, right? It has its days. But I would say overall, If you know what you’re looking for, you can have a pretty good successful day in there. Yeah. Dave (53m 54s): Good, good. And species wise, give us that before we get outta here. What was the species in that river? John (53m 59s): Yeah, so it’ll be rainbows and brown trout. And the Gunnison rainbow is pretty unique. It’s, it’s its own strain of fish. Dave (54m 8s): Oh it is? It’s a native fish in there. John (54m 10s): Yeah, it’s not, it’s wild, but it’s resistant to whirling disease, which kind of plagued that river. I don’t have a timeframe off my head, but they had a pretty bad episode of whirling disease in there and then some of the fish that were already in the system became resistant to it. And that’s, that current population reside is primarily that strain of fish, which is really cool. But the gunny bow is shorter but really thick, big shoulder stacked fish. That’s powerful. And it’s used to swimming in pretty turbulent water, so they’re cool fish. Dave (54m 41s): There you go. There you go. The gunny bow. Okay. Nice. All right, job. Well, yeah, like we said, we’ll, we’ll talk more maybe on the next one, some big hole. We’ll get into some of these other rivers after you have some time to kick it in Montana. Have you been there a while now? Like in, in the Montana, you’ve been there, how many years now have you been living in that area? John (54m 57s): I’m going on year seven up here actually. So that’s Dave (54m 60s): A good chunk of time. John (55m 0s): It’s been, yeah, I, I love it, man. I don’t think I’ll ever leave. It’s definitely home now. Dave (55m 5s): That’s it, Montana. Awesome man. Well we’ll be in touch. Thanks for all your time today and we’ll, we’ll send everybody out to some of the links that we talked about and we’ll take it from there. Awesome John (55m 13s): Dave. We’ll appreciate you having me on this morning, man. And you have a great rest of your day. Dave (55m 18s): Alright, since John has no social media accounts, he has no website. He is a very hard man to track down. We don’t have a a link for John right now, and to be honest, I’m not sure how we connected with him, but we did. If you can check in with maybe Sims Bauer or Winston, let him know about this episode. Let him know you heard him on this podcast. And If you see him out there, check in and say hi. As always, follow the show If you wanna get that next episode into your inbox. We’ve got some big ones coming up here. We are getting ready to launch into the Missouri trip, Missouri River. We’ve been talking a little bit about this. Three other famous Montana Rivers come together forming the Missouri, the Big Mo, and we’re gonna be fishing this year. Dave (56m 0s): It’s got more fish per mile, a large number of fish per mile than you hear in most places, and a lot of big fish. We’re talking average 18 inches for these fish. So stay tuned for that. We’re gonna dig deep into that episode in a couple weeks here as we prepare for that. And I just want you to have a great afternoon, a great evening, or a fantastic morning wherever you are in the world, and I appreciate for stopping in and checking in with us today. 3 (56m 27s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly Fishing show. 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