763 | Urban Fly Fishing in Phoenix with Derek Rivchin – Carp on the Fly, Canal Tactics, Lo Water Guide Service

Dave (2s): When you hear the words urban Fly fishing, what pops into your head? Maybe trash, pollution or carp. Today’s guest flips the idea on its head. He’s a full-time guide who explores the canals, lakes, and streams of Arizona right in the middle of the city. By the end of this episode, you will see carp in a whole new light and walk away with some solid tips to help you fish more confidently in your own backyard waters this year. This is the wifi swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that trip And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Derek Chen Phoenix Guide and master carp trickster is gonna walk us through how he catches fish in urban fisheries. Dave (44s): You’re gonna find out what the difference is between a grass carp and a common carp and how to fish the fly to them. You’re gonna find out when to use a dry fly and where exactly to place that fly. We’re gonna talk about that today, where to put the fly to get the most action and what his number one color is for carp in canals. We’re also gonna talk about the flats. Lots of good stuff today. Plus you’re gonna find out why these carp species are federally protected and some history behind the canals and indigenous people out there. All right, here we go. Let’s get into it. Derek Riv chin from low water guide.com. How you doing Derek? Derek (1m 21s): Good, how are you Dave? Dave (1m 22s): Great. Yeah, I’m excited to jump into this one today. I always love a good urban Fly fishing kinda journey We’ve had, we’ve done some episodes in Arizona and we’ve definitely talked about carp, which is a species I’m sure we’re gonna touch on today. But we’re gonna get into all of that and maybe give people some tips on if they’re, you know, I’m, I’m guessing some of the stuff we’re gonna talk about today might apply to other areas. But take us back a little quickly to your background. Like how’d you first get into it? What’s your first memory on Fly fishing? Derek (1m 48s): Well, thank you for the podcast. I know we’ve been trying to get on here for a long time, so I appreciate it. It’s privately happening, but yeah. Yeah, so I was born in Phoenix, Arizona. I was raised here. I fished a little bit on spin gear growing up, just messing around and then got into Fly fishing and that just kinda took over everything like it does for many people. And then I, I got into a wildland fire and that job put me in Montana for three years where I was really able to fly fish, some of the best country in the world or I guess the country even. And then made it to me, New Mexico and St. Derek (2m 29s): John did the same thing, air fished all over, eventually got tired out, wanted to start a family, wanted to be home. Just thought maybe I can make a guide service here in Phoenix. I knew, I knew we had the, the tourism for it, the people, but there was nothing really going on here for guides. So I just kinda, no business plan nothing, just kind of got my LLC, got insurance and got the permits I needed and just started promoting trips and six years later doing the same thing just day by day in it really. Dave (3m 2s): Right. So has it in the last six years, has things changed? I know there’s at least one fly shop out there. Has it changed a little bit on the interest? The people out there Fly fishing, you see? Derek (3m 12s): Yeah, yeah. It’s changed a lot. When I first got into it, we had one fly shop that went out of business around the same time that I started and they just couldn’t keep it open. I don’t know why. I know at one point they were the largest sage salt HD distributor in the country. So that just talks for the volume when the amount of people we have here that are getting trip and going to Belize or The Bahamas or whatever. So that shop closed there. The new shop opened up a flash shop and just kind of took everything over and we had like a lot of different companies looking at us now ’cause they’re like, what the hell is all this noise going on down there? Derek (3m 53s): And then that one took off. Now we have pheasant tail fly shops now we have two fly shops on top of Bass Pros and Sportsman’s and all those. But yeah, so we went from no fly shops to two fly shops. Dave (4m 7s): Wow. Derek (4m 7s): So it’s been a little bit of a roller coaster. I mean the people that Fly fishing year, we’ve always just done it and kind of operated in the shadows of just getting gear online, getting what we need and making flies at getting the materials from craft stores to make do and just getting by until we actually had all these fly shops now. Dave (4m 26s): Nice. Yeah, I mean you, you start there six years ago thing, you lose the fly shop and now you got some more action there people out there. What are the, maybe let’s start on the urban Fly fishing. I think that’s a lot of what you do. The Phoenix area. What are the species that you are focusing on? What are, what are the top species and then you know what is out there? Derek (4m 43s): Yeah, so like working as close to Phoenix, we kind of have the canal systems and some reclaimed water ponds. Those are full of the canals are full of grass carf, which are all like stocked in there by the kind, not really a state agency, but a governing agency for the water rights. Yep. And they’re put in there for like a herbicide to keep, they basically eat all the weeds and algae and just tend to keep everything clean so they don’t have to use chemicals in the water. And then with those canals, they kind of touch a little bit of all the reservoirs in some way or another. So we’ve gotten striped bass in ’em, wipers, white bass, all the sunfish, large mouth. Derek (5m 30s): I’ve heard stories of biologists seeing a gar in ’em. Trout snapping turtles, people dump their sick lids in there, their pcos. And now we have all these crazy aquarium fish in there. Wow. Giant common carb, giant catfish. There’s this, it’s a whole smorgasbord of just everything you can, every warm water species you can think of. Dave (5m 52s): Have you caught a lot of those species? Derek (5m 54s): Not really. So like they’re pretty, the grass, I’m like so tuned in on the grasses that even like the bass are kind of hard for me to catch out of the canals ’cause they’re so skittish and they like, we’re like, we’re all, we’re sight fishing everything. Yeah. So to try and like by the time we’re on a bass, he’s already onto us and he is freaking out, but Oh yeah. Yeah. They’re the bastard’s. Very weird. And the canals. But not even like as a byproduct, have I caught anything really. But you see ’em in there and I, I do throw flies that kinda look like baby, like blue gill like bait fish and the grass carp will eat ’em. So yeah, there’s something going on in there. Yeah. Dave (6m 28s): Right. Cool. So it’s mostly what you guys are doing is the grass carp? Derek (6m 31s): Yeah. Yeah. And the canals. And then like as we kinda scoot 30 minutes outside of Phoenix, we have a a God, we have a lot of reservoirs. All those reservoirs hold large mouth and then like common carb, we do a lot of guides for the bass too. Now that’s become its own little thing. And that’s all on the fly rod and a ton of fun. And then the, the flats at the lake are where we target the common carp on our like John boat skis and stuff like that, which is super fun. Dave (7m 2s): Gotcha. So you have common carp in the lake and then mostly in the canals is grass carp. Derek (7m 8s): Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No grass seed have gotten into the lakes. Tilapia are in there. I did see some tilapia last year and that was kinda crazy to see ’em up in the flats just hanging out. Yeah. Dave (7m 19s): What is the difference between a a grass carp and a common car? Do they act differently? Do they look differently? Derek (7m 25s): Yeah. Yeah. So you know, a common carp we can all kinda picture like that golden. Yeah. Stereotypical carp. That’s your common, that varies. That can be a mirror carp, which has kind of like a very large scales that are kind of erratically placed. They could be coy, they can, what’s the other one? Fan tales where they get really long fanny wavy thins. The common car, they kind of are set up to bottom feed. Their mouth is on the bottom. They have their barbells for like feeling around in the soft mud eyes are kind of a little more frontwards so they can kind of see out in front of ’em. Derek (8m 7s): And then you go to a grassy, which kind of looks like a milk fish. Kind of like a, a long weird silvery scaled fish. And it has its eyes are way more broadside on like the sides of its head. So it’s really like watching you as you’re walking along on the canal. Its mouth is more on the front of its face. So it’s not really set up to pick up stuff off the bottom, but it can. But they’re usually looking like bottom column up to the top of the water surface. And they’re just kind of, they’re just feeding constantly. Derek (8m 48s): They’re always feeding, they’re always looking for something to eat. They’re always looking for that Cheeto to float by or a bogan leaf or Dave (8m 55s): Right. What is the, anything like that? Have you, like what is the crazy thing? Have you seen some of that one that, that you’ve caught a grass curve on? Derek (9m 2s): I mean we see ’em a bunch of like you’ll see Cheetos go by and you be like, ah, Cheeto hatch. And you’ll see ’em start coming up and they’ll start eating. I’m like, no kidding. They’re very opportunistic. Like I, they act like they’re not gonna eat again. So they’re constantly eating I think SRP estimates that they eat like their body weight a day. Right. And just vegetation and junk like that. Like you’ll see ’em just sucking on these big moss balls that float down and they’re just floating with the moss ball. Just chewing on God syringes floating around. I’ve seen a catfish. There was a video going on of a catfish that was eating a pigeon. It was like a dead pigeon and it was just sucking on it in the canal. Geez. Dave (9m 38s): So you’re not eating, people aren’t eating grass carf out here? Derek (9m 42s): No, no. And the grass carp are federally protected so you can catch and release ’em, but you have to release ’em. There’s like a $500 fine if you get caught with one. Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah. So they’re protected. They’re like city workers pretty much. Dave (9m 54s): Oh right. They’re protected on that way. Right. Yeah. Not that they’re endangered species, but which they’re not there. Yeah. No, Derek (10m 0s): No. They’re like, these are our workers. Dave (10m 2s): That’s crazy. Derek (10m 3s): But everything else in there, it’s like they want ’em out. They want everything out except their grass car. They’ll clean the canals. They come through, I think it’s like a 10 year plan for certain sections. And they come through, they lower the water, they herd all the fish and then they catch ’em in these giant nets, just like big nets. And they use excavators to lift them up into a, like a water truck. And they load all these fish up in there. A lot of times they’ll leave anything that’s not a grass carp and then they just let the water dry up and then they clean the canal and then they fill it back up, let the fish in. But yeah, so there’s sometimes you’ll be like six inches of water and there’s a 20 pound catfish just like hanging out in this puddle. Derek (10m 50s): Just barely. Dave (10m 51s): Oh wow. Yeah. Derek (10m 52s): Yeah. So that happens a lot. But yeah, those grass seed are pretty cool. Dave (10m 55s): So you have common and grass carpet in the canals? Derek (10m 58s): Yeah. Yeah. The commons are in there too. The commons are giant in there. They’re super smart. Some of the guides are really good at catching ’em. I’m better at catching the grasses for sure. They’re a little stupider. The commons in, there’re big anything in the canal. It’s big and it’s smart ’cause it’s been in there for so long. Dave (11m 14s): Right, right. What is the, you know when people come to you, if they’re new to it or you know, they hear about you guys, what is the trip you are, they’re either asking for or you’re telling them would be the big one. Derek (11m 26s): If somebody’s really new to it and they like are learning casting or need to learn casting, it’s usually the canals or trout just because we don’t, they’re not, they’re like 30 feet at, they’re widest. Our trout streams are like five feet if they’re widest. So it kind of gets rid of the giant casting aspect and we can kind of just focus on smaller shots, 15 foot shots and just work on accuracy. Dave (11m 50s): Yep. But Derek (11m 50s): Yeah, those are the two big ones. Those Dave (11m 52s): Are the big ones. So, and then, then the, and the canals is, I mean definitely you have a chance at some pretty, it sounds like some pretty big fish and, and on the ser. And are you doing that on the, what is the, the canal versus the the lake that, is that a pretty different game? Derek (12m 6s): Yeah. Yeah. Beginners can catch ’em at the lakes too ’cause we’re on the skiff there, we’re waiting for ’em. So we’re like within a fly rod distance to ’em half the time just sneaking up on ’em. It’s a lot like hunting. I kind of say like stalking, you’re kind of out there. It’s all visual. So you’re just like looking for these fish and then sneaking into position to put a cast on ’em, putting that one accurate cast on ’em and hoping that they eat it. Yeah. But yeah, it’s a lot different on the canals. We do, since I’m really targeting the grasses on the canal, I’m mostly throwing, sometimes I’ll do a mop, like drag and drop, just typical carp stuff. Derek (12m 46s): I’ll swing streamers for ’em if I see them kind of stacked up in some fast moving water. And then dry flies will do a lot of dry flies. Especially this time of year is when the mesquite trees are kind of having their little flowers bloom or everything’s really blooming here right now. Yeah. So they’ll just come up and eat stuff on the dry. It’s kinda just looking at the fish and reading their body language and seeing what they’re kind of doing. Seeing what Dave (13m 11s): They’re doing. Where Derek (13m 11s): They’re holding, yeah. Where they’re holding it in the water. And, Dave (13m 14s): And this is for like mainly for the grass carp? Is that kind of where you’re reading their body? Derek (13m 17s): Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. On the grass carp, it’s kind of like trout fishing a river really. They kind of hold in the same places and they kind of act the same. They just aren’t as efficient as swimming through. Moving water is the big thing with them. Dave (13m 32s): Oh right. And are these waters just kind of more like pools or is there some a little bit of current? Derek (13m 38s): There’s a current, yeah, there’s usually always some current. Sometimes it’s less, sometimes it’s coming out of like a overhead dam and it’s just ripping through. But yeah, there’s always usually some current, unless they’re cleaning ’em. Yeah. Yeah. Dave (13m 52s): Okay. Yeah, I mean it seems like the grass cart would be, you know, definitely it all, it all sounds cool. But I can imagine somebody’s either coming through, stopping in, maybe, you know, visiting in the, the winter time. I mean, so that’s the thing too. It’s Phoenix. Right. So you guys have Yeah. Crazy 140 degree temperatures right. In the summer and then the winter, what, what’s it like right now we’re kind of in the April, you know, may I think this episode’s gonna go live and kinda later in May. What’s that like, what’s that period like there? Derek (14m 20s): I’m trying to find my thermometer. We’re at like, we’re sitting in like the high seventies right now and it’s kind of colder this week. It was last week, it was in the night. We had a couple days I think touch 90 90. Wow. I know I had in my, the intake in my truck was saying 98 degrees. So, and that was while driving. Yeah. But it’s, there’s not a cloud in the sky right now. Blue skies, it’ll warm up. Perfect shorts and t-shirt weather. I’m from here so I’m kind of a wuss with cold weather. But like wintertime I’m freezing. So people from the Midwest come and they’re like, dude this is like summertime back home. Dave (14m 57s): Yeah, it sounds like that would be a good place to, yeah, you go take a vacation to Phoenix like a lot of people do. Yeah. And so, so you could, so what would that be like? So you kind of think November, December pretty much, you know, November through, you know right now it’s still freezing and snowing and you know, in the west, but yeah, no say November through April. What does that grass carp fishery look like? Derek (15m 18s): So the canals will fish year round. They’ll fish 365. The fish are always in there when they clean the canals it gets a little weird ’cause we gotta find them. When Dave (15m 27s): Do they clean them? Derek (15m 28s): Yeah, typically. Usually back in like February I think they usually do it. Okay. So they’re usually a scramble ’cause we’re getting busy and then we’re like, where’s the fish at? And we’re a little scrambling to find them. Right. Yeah. And then as it kinda warms up, we just started, the carp just came up in the flats about, they came up about three weeks ago now. So they’re pretty well up there and established. Dave (15m 50s): And what do you mean came, so are they migrating up into the flats or what? What do you mean there? Yeah. Derek (15m 54s): Yeah. Like they kind of, during the winter they will hold in deeper water and so for the wintertime they’re nowhere to be seen. And then around this time they start like coming up in the shallows for the spawn to spawn mostly look for food, just get back to their normal routine. So we’re always like start checking the flats. We go out there with our boats and just look for ’em and they’re all up in there right now. So they just, yeah, they just kinda go deep for the winter really. Oh Dave (16m 23s): Okay. So wintertime you guys are doing, that’s where you’re doing something, it’s different there. You’re getting down deeper fishing to ’em? Derek (16m 29s): No, we won’t even chase ’em. We don’t even chase them in the lakes until they’re in the flat. Dave (16m 33s): Oh I see. Yeah, I gotcha. Yeah, so the lakes, you guys are out there so they go deep. You don’t worry about in the winters but in the canals you can fish you around. That’s what you’re saying? Yeah. Yeah. Derek (16m 41s): And and also when the canal, we have the salt river, which kinda leads into most of the, some of the canals. But that’ll fish year round too. It’s like a huge recreational area. It’s very controlled by electricity kind of uses. So they’ll drop the flows like super way down in the wintertime and let the reservoirs all fill up for winter or for summertime. So that’s another good option for the winter. And, and Payson, our trout streams are always good all winter. ’cause we have, we get snow but they’re pretty mild for the most part. Yeah. So we’re able to fish for all those. Todd, the our, my basket guys, he’s been fishing for bass all year, catching fish every week. Derek (17m 22s): So I mean there’s a lot of like year round opportunity for sure. Dave (17m 26s): Yeah. Those are large mouth bass. Derek (17m 28s): Yeah, large mouth. We have some smallies. He did pretty well on the stripers and the white bass. And the wipers too. Dave (17m 36s): The wipers. Right. Which is a mix between what? What’s a wiper? A mix. Derek (17m 41s): The white bass and the striped bass. Dave (17m 42s): Yeah. White bass and striped. Okay, gotcha. That’s it. So like you said, so you guys, so you fish the canals year round and then as soon as things start warming up, you hit the lakes for the flats. So right now have you guys been out on the flats? Derek (17m 56s): Yeah. Yeah, we’ve been out. I have like a whole week next week that I’ll be out there. We have a trip tomorrow on the flats. Yeah. So like as soon as the flats go off we’re just like, if we get something that hits us up and they don’t know what to do and they’re, that trip’s so cool that it’s usually a pretty easy push on people. Yeah. But yeah, we definitely push that one a lot. Yeah, Dave (18m 16s): The flat. Yeah. And that fish is your, does that fish all the way in until things start cooling down in the fall or winter? Yeah. Derek (18m 21s): Yeah. You can almost fish that like November-ish. Usually that’s pretty shutting down. But yes, we’ll hit them really hard for right now. Gotcha. Dave (18m 32s): Flats. Okay. And, and what are the, and these are reservoirs like just essentially lakes but reservoir and are there a number of different reservoirs or There’s just a few big ones. Derek (18m 41s): We have man, we have, we have five on the Salt River, which are all like within an hour drive of Phoenix. And then we have two on the Verde River that’s also really close. And then we have Lake Pleasant, which comes from the Colorado River out on the California border. And they pump it all the way to two different lakes before they send it down via canal to like Central Arizona for irrigation. Oh yeah, that’s the spot that has a lot of the striped bass, the wipers. Giant gizzard Chad, it’s crystal Clear Water Lake Pleasant’s a really cool spot. We’ll do a lot of trips there. Dave (19m 23s): Trout Routes by Onyx is built for fly anglers who want better intel without spending hours digging for the information. You’ll get access to public land maps, stream access points, regulations, and even road and trail maps all in one place. It’s become my go-to app for scouting new trips. You can check ’em out right now. Go to wetly swing.com/trout routes and download the app today. Fish to Fly Guide Service is dedicated to sharing the incredible Fly fishing opportunities around Jackson Hole. Whether floating the Scenic Snake River in search of native cutthroat trout or hiking into the mountains to explore pristine tributaries every day on the water is an adventure. You can join them for an unforgettable Fly fishing experience in the heart of the tetons@fishthefly.com. Dave (20m 9s): So yeah, it sound like you guys have a quiet and then you have a whole, you have some guides that are doing other trips, other species. Yeah. So is your focus in the year, it sounds like you’re on the carp, that’s your main focus. Derek (20m 19s): Yeah, you know, I’m kind of becoming an outfitter going back, I don’t know, I did like the first three years I think all by myself and it was just getting too much, I was getting burnt down. I didn’t want to lose any appreciation for Fly fishing so I was like, I need to get some other guides to spread it out. Yeah, that’s when Ryan came into the picture and Ryan was, he had his own guide service going, but he was busy doing other stuff so I kind of just stepped in as a outfitter and now I’m just kind of plugging these guys into the trips that they like to do. Like Todd likes to bass fish, so all he does is bass trips. Ryan’s good at pretty much everything so he can do carp, trout canals, salt River. Derek (21m 1s): And then we have guides with rafts that just float down the Salt River. And then we have guides that only do weekends. We have guides that only do trout up north. So kind of just spreading it all out, making it easy on all the guides and not burning anybody out. And just keeping it fun. Keeping it fun and having fun doing it. Dave (21m 19s): That’s cool. On your website, is there a place where people can go and take a look at all the different options you guys have and all these, the salt and all these different fisheries? Yeah, Derek (21m 29s): Yeah, yeah. We have a lot of options on our website. All the pricing’s there, it’s all upfront. There’s no hidden costs. The canal’s a popular one ’cause it’s a three hour trip. It’s our shortest, cheapest, super convenient right in town you just hop out, go get some fish and get back to your day pretty much. Dave (21m 47s): Yeah. Okay, cool. We’ll we’ll have a link there to, to low water guy.com and people can take a look there. So, but yeah, I wanted to get back, I think the flats fishing is interesting ’cause partly, you know, just sounds cool. But also there’s probably people that are maybe thinking salt water too and saying hey, I can get some experience. Is that, is there a lot of overlap there? Is that something where if you get that, you know, go out with you guys that might help you for a, a permit or a bonefish trip? Derek (22m 12s): Yeah, yeah, for sure. We get a lot of clients that are snowbirds here and they’re like, what the hell? I didn’t know you guys existed. Like I didn’t know why kids fish year round down here. Yeah. So they’re blown away. Even on the, the canals is, we call ’em practice fish ’cause it’s so many shots. It’s all about accuracy, it’s all about sight fishing, it’s all about watching them eat. It’s big fish so you gotta learn how to fight fish properly. And at the end of the day, if you bust it off it’s just a carp so you’re like whatever. It’s not a big deal. Yeah. And then going to the flats, it’s very much so like I’ve only bone fished with Jeremy out in Oahu, but it was so much like that that after I did that trip with him, I came back here and I was like, okay, I know the car in the flats now I just need to figure out how I can get there. Derek (23m 1s): And, and I went out on his skiff so I was like, I’m gonna build a John boat skiff. Oh cool. And then a year later I was out chasing him in the same manner. You’re not really like stripping flies away from him, but they’re still tailing, they’re still face down in the mud. You still gotta sneak up, you still gotta make a good presentation and you still gotta trick ’em. They’re, they’re very smart fish. They’re super smart. Great eyesight, great feeling. Yeah, they’re not an easy fish to catch really. I don’t wanna sound like they’re easy, but they’re definitely a learning curve. Right, Dave (23m 33s): Right. Well what are some of the common mistakes somebody would make out there if they’re, you know, new to it? Derek (23m 40s): Really on the canals it’s a lot of accuracy. So like I’m always like, you gotta hit that fish right in the head with most of the flies that we’re throwing. Dave (23m 49s): Oh, is that what you wanna do? Is that you kind of want to, you’re not really leading them, you just wanna plop it like right on top of Derek (23m 54s): ’em? Yeah, yeah. For on the, I mean there’s always scenarios but this is usually, I especially dry flies. I’m like smacking them in the head with that dry fly and a lot of people are like, ah, I think I need to like drift it to ’em. And I’m like, no, you got it. You gotta hit ’em or they’re not gonna see it. Dave (24m 8s): And do you mean literally hit ’em or you mean just put it above ’em? Derek (24m 12s): Yeah, like put it on their head. Dave (24m 14s): Yeah. They’re not coming up to the surface eating other, well I guess they are eating Cheetos and stuff like that too, but, but Derek (24m 19s): No, no, they would be like subsurface kinda look. I would see ’em subsurface just hanging out and then I would put the fly within six inches of their front of their face. ’cause it seems like if they don’t notice it, they don’t even care. Like if you dead drift it to ’em from way up high, they’re, if they don’t see it, they don’t aren’t even gonna make a move. But if it plops they’re either gonna spook or they’re gonna eat the flies. So I’m like, let’s go with that route for the sake of just fishing fast and guiding fishing. Yeah. Dave (24m 51s): Wow. So you put on top of ’em and, and, and like you said, there’s different things you’re doing. This might be a dry, what would be some of the dry, you’re fishing and then like out there? Derek (25m 1s): Oh God, I don’t know. One client called it the rif chin special. I think it’s kind of, it kind of looks like a weird, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen Wco fly. He did a kind of like a grass carp lar looking thing. Oh, okay. And it’s, it’s kinda like that. It’s just foam and a rabbit soer to me it looks like a mesquite pod, like a little yellow flower, but they eat it year round. So I don’t know. I had a client that came out once and he was like, this is the greatest thing ever. And then he booked the next day and he came out with a bunch of bees and like wasp flies and, and the fish wouldn’t touch ’em there. Oh really? Because he was like, he was like, these fish want a bee. Derek (25m 43s): Like that’s what they’re eating. And I’m like, I don’t know. And they wouldn’t touch the bees or anything. And then he put my fly on for like the last hour and caught fish. Dave (25m 50s): Right. So it’s basically a lot of white foam and then like a zonker strip sort of thing? Derek (25m 54s): Yeah, yellow foam. Yellow foam. Oh, yellow Dave (25m 56s): Foam Derek (25m 56s): Chartres. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of chartres out there on the canals. Chartreuse Dave (25m 60s): The truth. So that’s the color. If you had to pick a color for the canals, it’s chartreuse. Derek (26m 4s): Yeah, for sure. And I know Stan, one of the guides he’s been saying red has been a big color, but yeah. Dave (26m 9s): Okay. Derek (26m 10s): But chartreuse for sure. Yeah. Dave (26m 11s): Okay. So you got the, and that would be a fly, A big, and what size would that foam big thing be? Derek (26m 18s): It’s on a size eight hook. It’s probably the foam part of, it’s smaller than a dime, but the whole fly would probably fit pretty well on a dime. Probably fit better on a nickel with the overhanging fluff from the zander, but Dave (26m 32s): Gotcha. So not super huge. Okay. So pretty small. Oh. But Derek (26m 35s): The streamers that I throw for ’em, they were like my bass streamers and I was like, man, these fish are acting weird. Let me swing a bass streamer here. And they ate it. So, and I’ve just ran with that pattern ever since. And it’s just black and chartres. But I think that those chartreuse tails, I think it’s like baby blue gills. The only thing I can think that it’s really imitating. Dave (26m 57s): Yeah. So they’re eating, so these car, not just eating vegetation, they’re eating other fish and all sorts of stuff. Yeah, Derek (27m 3s): Yeah. They gotta be, I haven’t like ever seen them like boil or anything, you know, like after a bait fish but swinging that fly, there’s no other thing that it can be. Yeah. Like there’s not Cheetos that are presenting themselves that way. Right, Dave (27m 17s): Right. Gotcha. Yeah, so they’re just opportunistic, super opportunistic, eating whatever. Yeah, very. Yeah. Is there any, during the season, whether that’s you know, now or may or in the year where were changes in environmental conditions, do the water temperatures pretty much just stay warm? Like or, or is there times when it’s better to fish for a morning night? Stuff like that? Derek (27m 38s): The water doesn’t really, it doesn’t seem to have any like great temperature swings or anything like that. It’s pretty steady, just as it gets warmer and stuff. The canals are so shallow too that they’ll stay pretty warm just with the sunlight on them and on the canals usually all the, all the carp trips we’re kind of fishing midday and the only reason is, so we can see the fish really well with that sun, like super overhead. They don’t seem to have like a feeding frenzy certain parts of the day or morning or afternoon. They’re just kind of feeding all day. It’s kind of just when the food presents itself, they’re going to eat it kinda deal. Derek (28m 18s): Gotcha. Dave (28m 18s): And are you seeing out there on the car? So how does that work on the canals? Are they all, are these public canals where anybody can just go and fish and are you seeing other people out there fishing? Derek (28m 28s): Yeah. Yeah. So most of the canals in town are operated by SRP, the Salt River project. And they manage a lot of our, they manage all the Salt River dams. All the verde dams. They’re like a power company here. So they’re not really like a government agency. They’re like a private party electrical, but they have a, they do a lot of governing of the water and they have like government plates on their vehicles and stuff. So I don’t know, it’s kind of weird. Yeah, those are all open. It’s usually state trust land that runs parallel on like the banks of the canals. And in Arizona state trust lands, like if you’re pretty much good to go unless it’s posted. Derek (29m 8s): But then we also have like the Central Arizona project, which pumps water from California, Colorado River to Alamo Lake to Lake Pleasant, and then down to Central Arizona. That one is gated off its entire entirety. The whole entire thing has a gate on both sides of it. They don’t want anybody in there. It’s posted, it’s monitored, patrolled, I don’t know. I don’t know why. But yeah, that one’s like that. And then there’s a, some other smaller private ones that kind of zing and zing in between, maybe like farmers have ’em. So a lot of those are private, they’re pretty much posted if they’re private. But for the most part they’re all public access. Derek (29m 50s): A lot of ’em all have like a, a sidewalk on the side of ’em. So people are always riding their bikes on ’em or running or just like walking, going to work even like Yep. They’re kind of like a highway system. All the transients obviously rules zone, there’s a lot of Dave (30m 6s): That. Is that a issue? You know a lot of, A lot of states. Well, warmer states especially. Yeah. Yeah. Is that an issue out there for you guys? Do you see a lot of that? Derek (30m 14s): Yeah, we do see a lot of that. I wouldn’t say it’s an issue. Yeah. They kind of just stick to themselves. They’re kind of just curious what you’re doing. Dave (30m 22s): Yeah. They’d probably be interested in some of those fish. Right. I’m sure they’d be eating some of those fish if they could. Yeah. Derek (30m 27s): Yeah. And I mean we’re out there with a fly rod, so we look just as crazy as they do. That’s true. Right. It’s weirdo. Dave (30m 33s): Gotcha. So, so cool. Well there is this system and I mean it sounds like it’s pretty easily accessible. And then we were talking earlier about the lakes and the flats. Maybe let’s take it back there real quick on the flat. So is that a lot different in the gear set up the flats versus the canals for the carp? Derek (30m 51s): As far as your rod? No, it’s gonna still be six, seven weight weight forward floating line, but still about a nine, a minimum, a nine foot liter. Really the only thing that kind of changes are the flies at the lakes. We’re throwing a lot more dragonfly nymphs, crawfish nim or you know, crawfish patterns. Stuff that’s more, more natural. Not Cheeto flies. Right. But yeah, so that’s really the only difference. And then we’re doing a lot of dragon dropping. I will say that there are some reservoirs that the carp will chase streamers stripping streamers and that’s a lot of fun. Derek (31m 34s): That doesn’t happen too much though. But that is a blast when it happens. And a little bit of dry flies on like the cottonwood seed flies and stuff like that. You can sometimes strip a common at the lakes with one of those cottonwood seed flies. But for the most part it’s a lot of dragon fly nims Dave (31m 50s): Dragon fly. Okay. And then, and then it sounds like you create, you put this kind of skiff put together, this skiff on with the John boat or the platform. Yeah. Take us there. So how do you, how do you get in on the fish? You know, describe that process. Derek (32m 4s): Yeah, so yeah, so I have my John boat flat boat converted. And then Kyle has a Sabine skiff that’s like a legit skiff. And so usually we will usually start those trips like 9:00 AM just so we have time to get out there and we just drive, launch the boat, go straight to the flats. We have a casting platform up front and then a polling platform out back. So we’re kind of just ease our way in and just start listening. You’ll usually hear a lot of fish flopping around as they kinda get ready to spawn. And that’s just like once you hear that, you’re like, all right, we’re gonna have have a good day. Dave (32m 40s): Oh, so they’re spawning. Is that right now? Or when? When are they spawning? Derek (32m 43s): They’re up in there thrashing around right now. I wouldn’t say they’re, they’re probably pres spawning right now. They’re not full on spawning. But even when we still chase ’em, when they spawn, I don’t believe that fish don’t eat when they’re spawning. If anything we throw big streamers at ’em that make them think it’s another carp that’s trying to get on their girl until they’ll eat it. Yeah. So it kind of works out in our face. Just like a basswood with a on its bed, you know, and a brown trout and everything else. Yeah. But yeah, so yeah, we’ll kind of do it that way if they’re spawning and then we’re just looking, we’re just looking for fins, we’re looking for any weird water, any nervous water. And then it’s just drag and drop. We’ll kind of have a couple first shots and kind of warm up at it and get the feel for ’em. Derek (33m 26s): And it’s a numbers game, so there’s usually a lot of shots that we can take at. Dave (33m 30s): So as you’re coming up, you see these splashes and you kind of know where the fish are and then are, are you having to sneak up on ’em or are you just kind of get out in the middle and, and they’re not really, you know, that worried about you? Derek (33m 40s): They kinda use highways. So like if I hear ’em, I’m like, okay, I know they’re over here. So then I’ll kind of throw my trolling motor in, make some noise, not really worried about splashing or making noise. And I’ll get up into the, about a foot and a half of water and then I’ll start really picking it apart, looking in there. Sometimes the water’s super muddy, so you have to like look at sticks that are like twitching a different way than the wind would push them. This sounds crazy, but in my head I’m like, it’s like perfect sense if I showed you. Right. And same with like the splashing, you just hear ’em splashing, you’re like, oh yeah, oh yeah, they’re over there and you just go to ’em. So Dave (34m 19s): You literally, there’s so many fish in the area, they’re like hitting sticks and stuff like that and you can kind of see ’em that way. Yeah, Derek (34m 24s): Yeah, yeah. They get in like these highways and they just, they all kind of like just feed through the highway system so you can kind of post up right on the side and you just take shots as they come through. They kind of, it’s kinda like a clock. And this is true on the canals too. I’ve had drone footage and the fish will kind of come in on one side of the canal. You shoot your shots out on take your cast, they kind of spook out and then like literally like a clock, the next group will just circle back in and pick up where they left off. And you cast it a new group so you’re kind of, you’re not just like fishing for the same fish. ’cause they’re, they’ll spook every now and then, but new fish come in. So you’re just like, all right, cool. Derek (35m 4s): Gotcha. Dave (35m 5s): Wow. So this is, and this is kind of sounds like the, everything’s pretty steady so you can sit out there all day and fish for these guys. Derek (35m 12s): Yeah. And that’s best case. There’s are days we get out there and there’s not, we’re like, I swear to God there’s place, there was fish here yesterday. Yeah. And there’s not a sole around. Right. And that’s usually a little more maybe wet waiting around walking on the shore, maybe pulling in some more shallow water and just trying to pick it apart. Sometimes in the year there’s only certain flats that are really like open and have fish on ’em. Or we have eagle closures on Lake Pleasant and that’ll kind of shut off half the lake for access. Dave (35m 44s): Oh, eagle closures. Derek (35m 46s): Yeah. Like bald eagles. They have a nesting pair. Oh yeah. They have a couple of nesting pair. And for some reason Lake Pleasant’s very big on protecting ’em. Lake Pleasant is a state, no, it’s not a state park. It’s like a, A county park. Mm. So they don’t really, they’re not forest service or BLM or anything like that. They can do kind of whatever they want. Dave (36m 7s): So they close down the park to protect the bald eagles. Yeah. Derek (36m 10s): They’ll close down the aga arm, like a huge section of it to protect a couple nesting pairs of baldies. But it’s silly ’cause if you go to Bartlett, which is, as the crow flies 40 miles away, their bald eagle goes all over the place and no closures anymore. Right, Dave (36m 27s): Right, right. Derek (36m 28s): Yeah. So it’s just like some old person was like, we gotta protect the bald eagles. And they are sitting on it, not budgets. Dave (36m 34s): Right. No, nobody’s budget. Gotcha. So you mentioned some bigger fish. What is the largest carp you’ve ever seen or heard of out in either the lake or the canals? Derek (36m 43s): Our state record is, well we don’t have a, a record for length, but just looking at the weight of ’em, God, I need to double check this. I think it was 62 inches or, yeah, it was 62 inches and it weighed a pound for every inch it weighed. And that was a grass cart that was in a pond in like one of the LA community ponds in town. Dave (37m 3s): Wow. So 62 inches, which is like, yeah, which is big. Is it five feet? Yeah, that’s, I think that is five feet. Yeah. Somewhere in there. Yeah. Derek (37m 10s): It was five Dave (37m 11s): Foot. So a five foot fish and it weighed a inch a pound for every inch. Derek (37m 15s): Yep. And it was caught out of a little pond. And we’ll see ’em, I’ve seen ’em out there and they, they’ll like sit in these community ponds and they just sit in the middle. They, they’re like a couple inches under the water and you just see ’em and you have to make the biggest cast on earth to get it over to ’em. Dave (37m 34s): Oh right. Derek (37m 35s): But then you can’t even see it because they can grass, car can like eat your fly and spit it out like with insane precision and not help themselves. So you have no idea if they’re, that’s why it’s so important to like be able to sight fish ’em and see ’em eat it. So that’s Dave (37m 49s): Key hook key. So that’s a key when you get these guys. So if you make the cast, you get in front of ’em, they turn up and they touch it. How do you talk about the hook set? How do you do it? Derek (37m 58s): It’s even on the carpet. It’s just a trout hook set. Nothing crazy, but I don’t know if it’s intimidating, but that’s definitely a big thing that people struggle with. And I’m just like, it’s just a trout set. Like don’t overthink it. Just wait for that fly to be in. And it’s usually me going set, set, set, Dave (38m 13s): Set. Yeah. And is it a set, is it a set up, a set over or just a number? Derek (38m 16s): Yeah, just a set up. Yeah, Dave (38m 18s): A set up. Derek (38m 18s): Yep. Yeah, it’s usually always a setup. Yeah. Dave (38m 20s): And then, so 60, I mean 50 60 pound fish. What is the biggest one you’ve, you guys have ever seen hooked on the fly out there? Derek (38m 27s): Oh man, I can picture this one COI that a client caught. I count that as me catching it. Yeah. Oh yeah. I don’t know. I didn’t weigh it. I haven’t really put a scale on any of ’em ’cause it’s just, I don’t know. Yeah. But now they make the scales that have the nets in ’em, so it’s worth chasing. There’s been a couple carp rallies and we have like measuring boards and stuff, but nothing really, nothing even close to that other fish that six two inch. Dave (38m 55s): No. Yeah. But you guys are getting some that are what, 30 inches in that range or something? Yeah, Derek (38m 59s): Like yeah, 30, 40 is pretty Dave (39m 1s): And those are probably, and those are maybe what like 30 pounds, 25 pounds? Derek (39m 6s): Yeah. Yeah. And you can go out pretty easily and catch one of those like Dave (39m 10s): Oh you can just go target Derek (39m 11s): Up. Dave (39m 11s): So you can literally go out there and you could have a good shot at a 20 or 25 pound carp. Derek (39m 16s): Yeah. Yeah. Especially if you’re like, let’s just hunt big fish. Like yeah, you can just go around and do that. Dave (39m 21s): Okay. And the big fish, like you said, are, are kind of out more on their own, just hitting in those deeper spots. Is that kind of what they’re, or how would you find a big carp? Derek (39m 31s): Same way. So you would just be going along looking for it, spotting it that way and then putting a cast on it. They aren’t like super secluded or anything, but they’re definitely super smart. They’re very smart ’cause they’ve been in there so long. So they’ll kind of like hang out behind a couple little fish, see what the little fish do and kind of make their moves like that. And just kinda like use their little fish as their ponds to test out flies. Right. But you could fool ’em. They’re fool both still. Dave (39m 58s): Yeah, they’re still right. They’re still fish. They’re not that smart. Derek (40m 0s): Yeah, exactly. Dave (40m 3s): Stonefly nets makes nets with soul. Each one handcrafted to stand out and built to last. When you spend time on the water, your gear matters. 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Because this is not, but this is not the sewer, you’re not fishing in the sewer. Right. These are canals. Water. Derek (41m 7s): Yep. And it’s our drinking water. Like people always like, Ugh, people are like gross. But I’m like, it’s barely treated before it hits our TAF water. Dave (41m 14s): Right. So this is the water that’s coming out of the where? Where is this coming from? From the Colorado or Derek (41m 23s): For the Salt River? These are all coming out of runoff from eastern Arizona and a little bit of northern Arizona on the Verde. The Salt River would be like the east side. And that has, it has Roosevelt Reservoir, it has Apache, it has canyon, and then it has Saguaro and then it dumps into the Salt River and then that turns into a canal and just goes for 150 miles or so. And then there’s a CAP one and that’s the one that’s coming from California. I’m sorry, I forgot the initial question, but that Dave (41m 58s): Was a, yeah, just overall I, I was just thinking of like the water. It’s interesting ’cause you got this water that’s the drinking water, but it’s coming from some river systems. Right. But it’s a big network. There’s probably huge. Right. But what you’re saying is yeah, the water’s not necessarily nasty water. It’s actually just water that’s flowing by that’s eventually gonna be in your sink. Derek (42m 17s): Yeah. I mean people treat the canals with no respect. So in that regard, that part is nasty. Like I see where they’re coming from, but I’m like, yeah, Dave (42m 25s): These are open. Yeah. Open ditches or I guess they’re not ditches, they’re canals. Right. Are you guys, yeah. Is a ditch in a canal the same thing or are there ditches that you’re fishing? Derek (42m 34s): I don’t know. I never thought about it. I would consider, I don’t think I’ve ever really fished like a ditch. I would picture a ditch. Like dirt. Dave (42m 41s): Yeah, like dirt. Derek (42m 42s): I guess we have ’em, but I don’t know if I’ve ever caught anything out of ’em. Those are more like in rural parts of Phoenix E like kind of on the outskirts ish. Yeah. Dave (42m 52s): Right, right. Gotcha. Okay. What are some of the challenges? It sounds like what you’re painting a picture of, it’s not easy ’cause it’s carp, right? But what are some of the urban fishing, Fly fishing challenges out there for you guys? Derek (43m 4s): On the urban side of it, there can be days that the fish just aren’t really doing anything. You know? Dave (43m 11s): So there is days where it’s like one day you’re catching fish. The next day you go out there, nothing seems like it’s changed and they’re not on. Derek (43m 17s): Yeah. Yeah. And it can like they’re, I don’t wanna say they’re sensitive, but they’re sensitive to some point in far as like the weather and pressures and rain and clouds. And they’ll be a little more skittish if it’s super clear out on a weekend and everybody’s out riding their bikes. Like I always tell people the fish are used to seeing people going by them, but when you stop and now you’re sit in parallel with them and they’re not used to that. So that’s like strike one and then you hit a fly on ’em and they’re like, what the Dave (43m 50s): Like that’s two. That’s usually, Derek (43m 52s): Yeah. So it’s like Dave (43m 53s): Gotcha. You gotta be wary of that stuff. Derek (43m 55s): Yeah. But it’s not, you’re usually always getting shots at ’em. There’s never like a day we go out and there’s like, oh, the fish are gone. Like they’re gonna be around if they’re super schooled up, sometimes they’ll get school like mentality and they’ll just kinda follow off whatever the other fish do that’s not good. And then if there is an actual steady food source going on, like if somebody’s cutting their grass up the road and they’re throwing all their clippings in the water, those grass seed will get dialed in on that specific thing and they won’t touch anything else. And that can kind of ruin a day real quick. Dave (44m 29s): What are they eating? Just literally the grass. Derek (44m 32s): Yeah, they’re like grass leaves. Like the landscapers like blow their leaves in there and the fish are like, all right, sweet. We’re eating these leaves now. ’cause they’re such a steady supply and then you throw a chartreuse thing and they’re like, that doesn’t match what we’re eating right Dave (44m 44s): Now. Oh right, right. Crazy. Derek (44m 45s): Yeah. There’s a mode, they’re opportunistic and then there’s a mode when they’re like dialed and they’re like, nah. Dave (44m 50s): Gotcha. So if you go out there and there’s not much going on, what, what is the, when are you choosing, I guess that’s the thing between a dry or a streamer? It just depends on what’s kind of, like you said, what’s going on out there? Derek (45m 0s): Yeah. Like you’ll notice like when the, it’s another one of those things, you just gotta see it. But like when the fishers like point it up and they’re just looking up at the water, you’re like, they know something has been coming on the top, so I’m gonna throw a dry at ’em and just see what they do. They’re usually pretty responsive to stuff. They miss drys a lot. They miss flies a lot ’cause they’re, they’re big, they’re kind of lazy. They don’t have like that real slimy coat on ’em, like a trout. They glide through the water so they, they’ll come up for the fly a lot and they just totally miss it. And you’re just like, oh my god. Dave (45m 33s): Oh Roy. So they’re not, they’re not refusing it. They literally just are not, you know, kind of don’t have the Derek (45m 38s): Sight. They’re just, they’re just missing it. Yeah. It happens so much. And it’s the funniest thing ’cause we’re just like, all you can do is laugh. It’s, Dave (45m 45s): Do they come back if you put it on, do they come back for it again? Derek (45m 48s): Sometimes, but usually not really. Usually they’re like, that was my shot. I’m good. They’ll, they will like circle back, especially on the lakes. Like if they miss a fly and they’re like, what the was that? They’ll definitely circle back, but they’re still wide and long. Their U-turns are like big A five foot radius. Yeah. So they’re like all over the place trying to find it and you’re like slapping this fly everywhere. And it usually just ends up and then spooking. But they definitely will be like, they’ll go to like the epicenter of where that fly initially touched on the surface and they’ll circle right there and they’re just like looking for whatever it was. Like they’re pissed off with it. Yeah. Dave (46m 24s): Wow. Is there any place to see this? Do you guys do any videos or are there any, like any of that stuff out there anywhere? Derek (46m 30s): I know on our Instagram I have some dryly eats and dryly misses of me and like me and the clients just laughing. Oh, Dave (46m 37s): Okay. Yeah, Derek (46m 38s): They’re definitely out there. Dave (46m 39s): That’s at low water or guides on Instagram? Derek (46m 41s): Yeah. Yeah. It’ll be on there. I should probably repost ’em all ’cause they’re probably buried. Yeah. And they’re, they’re so funny. And we have drone footage, footage and stuff that’s just buried in there and they show them like circling and swinging streamers at ’em and watching them connect and stuff like that. Gotcha. Dave (46m 57s): Wow. So back to kind of today, so it’s we’re, what are we at April, early April. Now what, what do you got going like this week, next week? What, what, what are your plans looking like? Derek (47m 7s): So this week we didn’t, I don’t know if last week we did about five trips. We did two on the Salt River, I believe, and a canal trip and then some lake trips. And the lake trip was really good. Shout out Lindsay and her boyfriend. They caught a trout princess. Her boyfriend caught a big old giant striper that I haven’t seen one that big in a while. So that was really cool to see. Oh wow. And then tomorrow we have a flat strip that Nico’s gonna do and he’ll just take my skiff out there and take some people out. And they’re split in the half day between bass and carp. So like, we’re pretty flexible with all our trips, so we have like birding trips. Dave (47m 47s): Oh, cool. Yeah, Derek (47m 48s): I don’t do any of ’em. We’re in a big migration route. We get a lot of cool birds in the flat where like they’re supposed to be, you know? Yeah, right. So that’s always a bonus. People really get a kick if there’s some fly fishermen and women that are birders too. So that’s always like, they’re like, it’s a corn, corn ranch. Dave (48m 5s): It’s a car. Right, right. You got all these, those are the birds, right? These are the migratory birds that you’re talking about there. Yeah, the ants, the, you know, whatever. Yeah. Derek (48m 13s): Ants are here year round. But like, I guess we have a lot of ’em and people are, I like, I’ve always considered ’em like a coup. They’re just like a trash bird. Oh Dave (48m 21s): Really? Ants. Yeah. Because Derek (48m 23s): We have so many of ’em and like Western breeds. We have North American Pelicans here right now. Dave (48m 28s): Oh wow. You have pelicans. Derek (48m 30s): Yeah. They usually come right in the beginning of our carp season and they’re hanging out in the flats. Dave (48m 35s): Those are huge, right? They’re giants. Derek (48m 37s): Yeah. I just posted a video with some that were just hanging out. Yeah. Dave (48m 40s): Every time. Now I I, when I hear birds, I, I just got done with an episode. It’s out there with the ever heard of the Feather Thief that book The Story of the Feather. Yeah. It’s really interesting. You should check it out or listen to the podcast. But it’s a long story short, it’s basically all the, you know, the classical fly tires that tie, like the Atlantic salmon flies. There’s this sector of ’em that they use. I mean, those flies use exotic birds, right? Yeah. Some of ’em are birds you can’t get illegal to get and stuff. But anyways, there’s this kid, this 20-year-old kid who, this is a, a little bit ago, 15 years ago, he broke into like the European museum of that held all the birds of like Darwin and all these birds that they, all these guys collected and he stole a bunch of birds for, to Ty flies. Dave (49m 24s): Oh my God. Yeah, totally. He stole a bunch of these birds Worth, worth, you know, millions. Yeah. And it’s the story of him basically getting caught. It’s this crazy story and I interviewed the author Kirk. Oh yeah. And I have Derek (49m 35s): To check that out. That sounds amazing. Dave (49m 37s): Yeah. It’s fricking bizarre, the story, but yeah. But it just gets you thinking like, man, birds are cool, you know, and looking at birds is cool and there’s like, yeah, I’m, I’m into all that stuff for sure. Derek (49m 48s): Yeah. I was never like really into it until like, I had a couple clients that were like, dude, this is amazing. And they like would pull out their, they like turned the flat strip into just a burning trip and they were like, this is so amazing. And I was like, yeah, I guess it kind of is. Yeah. I just didn’t took it for granted, I guess. Dave (50m 5s): Nice. That’s awesome. So cool. Well we’ve touched on this. Anything else? We’re gonna take it outta here in a bit. But yeah, any, any other items on kind of your program or anything you wanna shed light on before we get outta here in a bit? Derek (50m 16s): I always like to touch on how the canals, their origins in Phoenix and how they were dug here. Probably over some of ’em over a thousand years ago. Oh wow. By the natives. Yeah. The Hoho comms, I might be butchering that. But they were down here way before any of you know, and they were doing irrigation, doing their own canal systems, digging ’em all by hand. They had like a vast network for irrigation going on. And as settlers kinda came over, we just kind of took them over red, dug ’em, repaved them out, put some check dams in and just kinda redid ’em. Derek (50m 58s): So I always find that really interesting. Wow. Yeah. I always think that’s like one of the coolest things about it. Dave (51m 3s): That is cool. Gosh, so thousands before or thousands of years, they, those canals essentially were, were there, that was just the Yeah. Indigenous people were using them. Yep. Derek (51m 11s): And there’s still some that are in like Tempe Phoenix that are still like untouched. There’s like runes right next to ’em and you’re just like, oh man, that’s so crazy. Dave (51m 21s): Can you fish out there? Can you fish near those? Or Derek (51m 24s): You can, but I don’t think there’s really fish in ’em. Oh, Dave (51m 27s): Right. Yeah. It’s not the Derek (51m 28s): Same. Yeah. I wonder though, back in a thousand years ago, man, I wonder what it was like, Dave (51m 32s): What would’ve been, yeah. Derek (51m 34s): Some orange suckers just ripping up there and Yeah. Right. Maybe some of our native hela or Apache trout and, yep. Dave (51m 40s): Yeah, that’s right. Cool. No, that’s really awesome. Well, we’ll try to find some, maybe in, do a little research and find a couple links to that, some of that information on the indigenous people out there. Yeah. Well let’s take it outta here. This is our play of the week. Plays of the week segment. And I’m thinking about, well think about this. I’m gonna think of, I always go back to sports ’cause I love sports, but this today is presented by, on Demark Lodge. They’re a, an outfitter out in Montana. We’re gonna be fishing the Missouri this year. Nice. My first time, which is gonna be amazing. It’s that area. You hear all these stories about these giant fish out there. So we’re gonna give big shout out to on Demark. Do you know that area at all? Derek (52m 15s): I know the Missouri, where, do you know what town you guys are launching out of? Dave (52m 20s): So we’re gonna be right out of their lodge. It’s a small lodge right on the, it’s, it’s right near Craig. I think it’s down Craig. Yeah, yeah. Right near Craig. Yeah, yeah, Derek (52m 29s): Yeah. That would be awesome. That place is crazy. Yeah, when I worked up in Montana, we had a drift boat there and floated that a lot. Dave (52m 34s): Oh, you did? So you know the Yeah, you know the Missouri. So that’s the thing we’re going in. I think it’s, well we are, it’s, it’s October. We’ve got a few spots that are open. We’ll put a link out there, wetly swing.com/missouri. So if people want to get in on that. But yeah, I mean that’s, we’re gonna be hitting, I think there’s still gonna be some dry fly action over there. What did you guys remember about your Missouri, about that time in there? Derek (52m 54s): You said November? Dave (52m 56s): No, it’ll be October. Like kinda Derek (52m 57s): Like Oh, even better. Yeah. I remembered as soon as the pumpkin pie blizzards came out at Dairy Queen, we were throwing giant articulated Cheech leeches a lot and just swinging streamers everywhere there. Yeah, Dave (53m 9s): Nice. Derek (53m 9s): Because that’s like when the Browns will start attacking stuff. Yeah. Dave (53m 12s): Yeah. A lot of, yeah. Derek (53m 14s): So streamers, I don’t even know if I streamers big old suckers. That’s some good fun. That’s a lot of fun in that country during that time of year. Dave (53m 21s): That’s cool. Yeah, that’s gonna be on the, on the list for sure. We’re gonna try to hit it all. So, so cool. Well there’s our big shout out to on Mark Lodge. So the plays of the week segment, this is where we’re kind of getting, I always go back to, I’m not sure if you’re a sports fan, but I always go back to like ESPN and they have these plays of the week and it’ll be like, you know, of course whatever, LeBron James, all the crazy dunks. But for you Fly fishing, what’s your, if you think about it, you know, that play of the week, if it was to go on to, you know, SportsCenter, this Fly fishing play of the week, do you have a, and it doesn’t have to be this week, but just as you’ve been out there the last six years, is there any story or play that you think of, you’re like, man that was like epic. How did that happen? Anything like big fish, crazy fish, any of that. Derek (54m 0s): You know, some of the biggest moments that stick out in my head are the fish that miss the fly eats because they’re so fun because it’s, I mean, it sucks that you miss them, but it’s just right in front of your face and it’s such a good laugh because it’s, you know, like I can remember all my, I can remember Ty when me and Tyrone went out and he tried to catch one and missed and just had a good laugh at it for a whole while. Dave (54m 21s): Yeah, yeah. Like missed a, a big fish on a, a Cheeto fly or something like that. Derek (54m 25s): Yeah, yeah. And you’re just like, oh my. It was, you did everything right. Like you didn’t do anything wrong. It was just that fish missed it. Yeah. But that stripe bass that Todd just caught was pretty cool with his clients. That was pretty cool. Dave (54m 37s): Oh yeah. Yeah. So the stripe, so the stripe bass is something, again, you have to focus on those species for the day when you’re fishing for ’em. Derek (54m 44s): Yeah. Yeah. And they’re like, they can be a big grind on a fly rod ’cause they kind of like to stay in 30 feet of water and we all know that presenting a fly in 30 feet of water isn’t very beautiful. No, Dave (54m 55s): No. It’s not easy. Derek (54m 56s): That’s cool to see. Dave (54m 57s): Yeah. So they’re down. So the stripers are kind of down deeper. Derek (55m 0s): Yeah. They will boil though. They do boil but it’s not as frequent as they used to. Dave (55m 5s): Yeah. Gotcha. For Derek (55m 7s): Whatever reason. Dave (55m 8s): Yeah. What, what is your, do you have a, are you thinking, are you kinda like big fish? Are you thinking like, man, I want to get that giant carp. Is that on your list and what have you caught some big ones? Derek (55m 18s): No, no. I’ve never been like a numbers chaser. I’ve always been more of a finding new areas for carb or for fish. It’s always been like the adventure part for me. Kind of like getting to the fish. Yep. More than just like catching that giant fish. It’s always cool. But I’ve changed so much since I’ve started guiding where I’m like, I just want to be out on the water. You can fish. I just want to be out there helping you. Like I don’t need to catch a fish anymore. You catching one on my boat is good enough. Right. Dave (55m 48s): I love that. Yeah, we, we had Josh Miller on, he’s in Pennsylvania, does a lot of the euro sniffing team, USA and he was saying the same thing. He was saying that he doesn’t fish the same water ever. Like he’ll fish one spot and then he won’t even, he might not fish that same spot until like five years later. And so he’s always fishing new water, you know what I mean? And he feels like, yeah. And I think that’s a cool way to do it because not only does it let fish rest, but it keeps you always learning. Right? You’re always on. Yeah. And so that’s, I thought that was kind of cool. Kinda like, sounds like that’s kind of how you roll too. Derek (56m 18s): Yeah. I’ve always felt like there’s so much here that I haven’t done too. And like everyone’s always like, let’s go to these foreign destinations. I’m like, I haven’t even been to San Carlos reservoir yet. Yeah. It’s a hundred miles down the road. Like I got you got bigger things to do here. Dave (56m 33s): Yeah. I love that. That’s it. I know, man, there the, your bucket list is is right. You know, right. In your home. It doesn’t have to be across the world to the Seychelles, right? Derek (56m 42s): Yeah. Yeah. I mean I would like a red, I I want to try red fish. That’s about it. That’s really my bucket list. Dave (56m 47s): Nice. Good, good. Well give us, before we get outta here, give us a, a couple, two or three tips on carp. So we’ve been talking a little on carp. What would be, somebody’s getting ready to do a big trip with you, they’re gonna be fishing out there, let’s just say for the grass. So it could be grass or common. What, what are two or three things you’re telling them to get ready? Derek (57m 3s): One of the biggest thing is just listen to your guide. Trust your guide. We’re out there a lot. We know what the fish are doing. Trust the process, trust the flies and then just listen. Yeah. Already said listening. Yeah. But I don’t know. Dave (57m 19s): Trust the guide’s a good one though, right? Because Yeah, for sure. You hear that sometimes I’ve heard that where people are guy, you know their guides and they’re saying, man, sometimes people don’t listen. They tell ’em something and they don’t listen and they don’t catch fish. Right. It it seems like that’s obvious but yeah. Derek (57m 32s): Yeah. I’m like, I’m like, I look at it like we’ll put a fish in your lap but you have to do it but you have to listen to how we tell you to do it. Yeah. It’ll happen but you gotta do it. Sun protection eyewear is huge out here. It can get really hot. We’ll try and do trips early if it’s hot. But Dave (57m 49s): How do you, how do you stay cool when it’s one of those days where maybe you weren’t expecting as hot, hot as it gets? How do you stay cool out there Derek (57m 57s): In the canals? There’s not a lot you can do. We’re usually pretty close to the vehicle so we can kind of like fish for an hour, go cool off fish for an hour, go cool off at the lakes. We can, wet weighting is a huge way to cool off. Even if it’s just your ankles in the water. It’ll do a lot. But besides that, I mean we just, we all wear our sun hoodies, our hats, our sunglasses. We’re not really putting on a bunch of sunscreen ’cause you sweat a lot. But yeah, we’re just kind of just Dave (58m 25s): Keeping covered. Derek (58m 26s): Yeah. Yeah, definitely keeping covered and just enduring it. A lot of water. Probably drink two gallons a day in the middle of summer. Yeah. Summer’s a tough, we’re pretty, we’re pretty slow. As soon as we hit triple digits things just fall on their face. Oh because nobody’s coming here. Dave (58m 40s): Right. Which is when, I mean that could, could that happen in May? And and have you seen changes with, have you guys been seeing some climate changes? You, we always hear the climate changes the other way where these cold places are getting warmer. But what about you guys? Derek (58m 52s): No, I don’t think we’re really, I know that we had, I think last week there was a day that they were thinking we were gonna tie with the hottest day but that was recorded in 77. So it doesn’t really seem like anything crazy. There’s years that we don’t get a lot of rain, which in affect reservoirs. Obviously. Like this year the agua hasn’t ran yet. It might, we got a late snow it might run but it hasn’t usually it’s already running by now and it hasn’t. So that whole area is dead right now where it’s usually everything is running up there. Dave (59m 26s): That’s where you could see it. Yeah. You could see it in changes in water up higher in the the areas. So you might see less water potentially. Derek (59m 33s): Yeah. But most of the reservoirs are sitting pretty full. There’s definitely, if certain reservoirs get low enough, we can’t launch a boat there anymore ’cause the ramp’s out of the water. So there’s things like that, like water changes. But as far as like temperature and stuff, it’s, it’s just once it’s over like one 10 it’s just hot. Dave (59m 53s): Yeah. One 10. What is the caught, is it, does it really get up to one 40 there? What? What is the hottest temperature you’ve seen? Derek (1h 0m 0s): Maybe if you’re like looking at your dashboard, you know? Dave (1h 0m 3s): Yeah, I guess that’s downtown, right? If you’re in the city with all the concrete, you’re right in the Derek (1h 0m 7s): Building. Yeah. And maybe like in your car, but I don’t think actual, like if you’re standing outside it’s not gonna be one 40. No, Dave (1h 0m 12s): That seems crazy. It’s Derek (1h 0m 13s): Not terrible. Dave (1h 0m 14s): You get used to it. Yeah. Derek (1h 0m 16s): People do it every year. People die too. Right, Dave (1h 0m 19s): Right. You gotta be careful still. It’s just, yeah, it’s like anything. Okay. Yeah Derek (1h 0m 23s): It could definitely get bad. But no, I mean I’ve had locals that were like, no, I can handle the heat. And they lasted 30 minutes and I’m like, oh sorry. Like I told you. Yeah. Dave (1h 0m 32s): Yeah. That’s it. Well and you mentioned the wild back to the start, just one more here and we will take it outta here. The, the wildland fire. That’s really interesting ’cause you talk about hot, right? You were out. Was that something that you did for quite a while and what was that like being a wild, were you a, you know, describe that. Was this something where you’re jumping out of a plane or just Derek (1h 0m 49s): Oh yeah. Yes. I did it for five years. So it was my longest profession until guiding is now six years this year. So now this is my longest job. Yeah. But I did, I wasn’t a hot shot or a smoke jumper. I was on an engine crew. I filled in with some hot shot crews for a few roles, but for the most part I was just assigned to an engine. It was cool ’cause I was only dating my wife at the time. No kids, not really any responsibilities. So I was away from her. So I just fished constantly. I would get off work and just go fish. So that was really nice. And then the weather though, I was in cooler temperatures and I was away from Phoenix in the summer. Derek (1h 1m 32s): So it was kind of like a break from the summers here. Even though it was on a fire, the fires probably weren’t, the surrounding areas were not as hot as Phoenix. Yeah, that’s for sure. So it was kinda like a little break. But no, it was a great job. I would definitely do it again if I didn’t have a kid or responsibilities. I wish I got into it when I was 18 and just retired in 20 years. No, Dave (1h 1m 53s): Right. That’s true. Yeah. Because of the danger and all that stuff. That’s what what it is. Yeah. So you enjoyed the work. So the work is basically, you guys are out there. It’s cool because you’re outdoors, you’re, you’re doing fire lines and stuff and you’re not really, were you ever in any danger that you thought was kind of a dangerous situation? No, Derek (1h 2m 9s): No, no. Like I never had to deploy or anything. And it took me to like more cool places that like people just couldn’t go like the Tongue River and Yellowstone Park and making a fly rod out of a piece of stick the inside of a paracord and a couple flies that I had and catching Yellowstone cuds Oh wow. In Yellowstone where nobody can fish with buffalo walking around and wolf packs and just like, so wild. And we just have this whole area to ourselves ’cause we’re watching it. Wow. So there’s a lot of cool stuff. Dave (1h 2m 41s): That’s awesome. Yeah, the Yellowstone area is, is unbelievable. We’ve been doing some stuff out there and it’s, it’s the, you know, obviously it’s the epicenter of, of all the volcanic. It’s been really interesting. I’ve been doing a little research on the geology and stuff and it’s been migrating, you know, across for millennia across the country as these faults and stuff and all this. But it’s now, right now the epi that is the epicenter of, of all this volcanic stuff. And then, yeah, it’s just crazy with wildlife. Right. Derek (1h 3m 4s): Yeah. It’s scary. I’ve always read about it like, God please don’t pop off. Dave (1h 3m 9s): Yeah, right, right. Don’t, don’t blow up now. Yeah, Derek (1h 3m 11s): I’ve been doing this next week I have three days out at one of the reservoirs with some geologists that are monitoring a fault line and I just, they found me randomly and I just take ’em out and kind of like take ’em to the area. They hike up, they walk back down, I take ’em back to the boat ramp. Dave (1h 3m 29s): Oh cool. So you’re, they’re not a fishing trip, you’re actually just taking ’em out for like a, to get ’em to do their work. Derek (1h 3m 33s): Yeah, yeah. They’re like, you can go fish while we wait. And I’m like, alright. And so I just kind of camp out there for a couple days Dave (1h 3m 39s): And Oh that’s amazing. There you go. Derek (1h 3m 40s): All the limb around. Yeah. So that’s pretty cool. So there’s, there’s more than just fishing happening but Dave (1h 3m 45s): Yeah. Sounds awesome. Cool. Cool Derek, well this has been great. I think definitely would love to connect with you and stay in touch. Maybe get out there, hopefully some people will connect with you on this. It sounds like an amazing area you got going here. Yeah. But we’ll send everybody out to low water guide.com and they can also check you out on Instagram. But yeah, thanks again for all the time today. This has been awesome. And we’ll be in touch with you. Derek (1h 4m 6s): Well yeah, thank you Dave. I appreciate it. Dave (1h 4m 10s): All right, that’s a wrap. If you get a chance, check in with Derrick, that’s low water guide.com. Check in with him and if you’re interested, see what he has available for trips and let him know you heard this podcast and, and that you’re interested and we would love that. If you get a chance, please if you haven’t already subscribe for all this show on your app of choice, you’ll get that next episode delivered to your inbox. I wanna give a heads up before we get outta here. We still have the Missouri trip if you’re interested. Wetly swing.com/missouri. We talked about it on this episode today. Big streamers, we’re gonna be doing it all and focusing a little on dry flies out there to the area. Some called the Land of Giants. Dave (1h 4m 50s): We got some opportunities to get some, a lot of fish there. So if you want to get into this, I’ll be there this year. Gonna be a great trip. Alright, I gotta get outta here. Hope you have a great morning. Hope you’re having a good afternoon. And if it’s evening, you know, if it’s early in the evening, maybe you’re just getting ready for dinner, throwing a snake on the barbecue if that’s what’s going on right now. And you’ve got this in your earbuds. I appreciate you for listening on the podcast today and we’re excited for that. Next one. Can’t wait to to get going. We’ll talk to you then.