827 | Tube Flies and the Riffle Hitch for Atlantic Salmon with Jesper Forhmann of Fishmadman

00:00:00 Dave: Today’s guest has built a lifetime around Atlantic salmon and sea trout, exploring the rivers of Denmark, Norway and the UK with a fly box full of tube flies and hitch patterns. Jesper Forman is the creative mind behind Fish Madman, a voice for traditional salmon fishing and a designer of flies that have earned cult status from Newfoundland to Scandinavia. By the end of this episode, you’ll know why. Tube flies can out fish hooks in tough conditions. What makes the riffle hitch such a powerful presentation in cold water, and how Jesper thinks about leaders, rods, and even the hooks that keep salmon pinned. This is the Fly Swing podcast, where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, and what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Jesper is here to share his philosophy on salmon fishing, the details that make his flies work so well, and why he still finds joy in casting for grilse sea trout and salmon across Europe’s rivers. We also dig into the gear. He trusts the flies like the fly. That definitely has been shouted out here by listeners on this podcast, and we’re going to get into the Scandinavian underhand style and how that translates into steelhead fishing and anglers worldwide. All right. You can explore all of his work at Fish Madman. Com. Here he is. Jesper. How you doing? Jesper. 00:01:24 Jesper: Oh thank you Dave. I’m fine. And yourself? 00:01:27 Dave: Good. I’m really excited to talk about this. You, uh. This podcast started from a listener request from focused on two flies. I know that was. We have questions out there. We’ve got a lot of people that fish for Atlantic salmon and steelhead and all those anadromous species. So you’re at fish Madman. So we’re going to talk about what you do. And the cool thing is is that you’re not in North America. You’re on kind of the other side of the pond, as they say, I guess. But take us back. First off, maybe tell folks where you are right now, where you’re sitting and kind of what you’re fishing for out there. 00:01:58 Jesper: Yeah, yeah. Well, sure. I’m, uh, we are in, uh, Denmark where we have, uh, fish Madeleine. And I would say most of my fishing for Atlantic salmon is done in Norway and England. So neighboring countries to Denmark. But if I were to go and fish for my in my backyard, so to speak, I would fish for, uh, sea run brown trout, which is, uh, what we call them here. We call them sea trout. So that’s my kind of fishing. So, um, more or less fly fishing all over. 00:02:31 Dave: Yeah. That’s it. So. And I love both of those species are great. We, you know, have, uh, brown trout is huge over here. Um, Atlantic salmon is one of those species that everybody is kind of on the bucket list. So and then also, I think one of the interesting things is, is two flies versus shanks. And there’s different flies. The traditional flies, there’s all sorts of. So we’re going to get into that conversation today because you have a fly that really is working awesome I know because I’ve been talking to some listeners who use it. And so we’re going to talk about these tubes. But let’s start with first off you mentioned Denmark. So does Denmark. When you compare Denmark to Norway versus UK, do you guys not have is Atlantic salmon not a species that are is there? I’m not even totally familiar with that area. 00:03:14 Jesper: Well we have Atlantic salmon and we have some fairly good rivers in Denmark. And historically we’ve been known for salmon fishing. But Denmark, compared to, uh, England or Norway especially, it’s quite a flat country. So we’ll get, uh, slow flowing rivers. And as opposed to if you go to Norway or Scotland, where they have, uh, mountains and, you know, kind of rivers that you would see in the northwest of America. And that’s my kind of fishing. I like, um, fast flowing rivers, clear water, everything that you will get if you travel in these European countries. We don’t get that in Denmark, but we have fairly good salmon and sea trout fishing, so there’s always an opportunity for that as well. 00:04:04 Dave: Okay. And on the the tube flies. Are you using those pretty much all around for all both of those species, everything out there or is it more focused on one or the other? 00:04:14 Jesper: Well, it’s like tube flies, if you were to describe it to somebody who doesn’t do tube flies or fish with them, it’s a different fly from the fly. It’s you. If you were if it was a deck of cards, you would say, you got to hook flies and there’s various kinds of those. And then you’ve got the tube flies, which will be different cards. So if you open your box and go fishing for Atlantic salmon, you will have places where you would put in a small hook fly, and you would have other places or other days that you would put on a tube fly. So tube fly is not sort of like the answer for every cast or fishing opportunity. It’s sort of like an opportunity to do something different, or fishing places that otherwise would be not open to you, or difficult to fish with a with a hook fly, if it makes sense. 00:05:09 Dave: Yeah, it does make total sense. So. And do you find that another thing we talk about sometimes and this is maybe more for steelhead fishing. But you know sometimes people say you know the fly isn’t as critical as getting it. You know, the other stuff getting it where the fish are. Do you find how critical is the fly pattern? Um, you know, whether that’s a two versus something else or just colors and patterns. Do you find it is really important for fishing up there? 00:05:33 Jesper: Well, that’s a huge question. I would say, um, it’s colors and material are important for when you fish Atlantic salmon, things like coloration of flies or how the flies made its you could look upon it as a little vessel that you would then chuck in the water and then attract the fish. And in those regards, of course, material, how it’s made and how it fetches on the water is important. And a great extent also coloration and details. If you were to speak to anybody else fishing for Atlantic salmon, I think that’s the most interesting part about Atlantic salmon fishing. Actually, we do not really know what it is that makes the sound bite. 00:06:20 Dave: Yeah. So you don’t know. That’s the thing is that they’re biting these things, but they’re not biting them for food. They’re just biting them. There’s some trigger that maybe it’s a memory from salt, or maybe it’s a freshwater. But that’s interesting too, because the flies are pretty sparse, or a lot of them at least. Right. Talk about that. What is a typical fly you’d be using up there in Norway or, you know, or the UK anywhere there? 00:06:43 Jesper: Yeah, yeah. Well typical fly is then when the salmon comes in from the sea Those first days of of them entering the river. It’s like they have all the memory of being greedy and feisty at sea. And so a big flyer would work for them like a big sun ray shadow, which is a very typical tube fly for salmon fishing. Could be a good option. But as soon as the salmon stayed in the river. So for a couple of days and maybe a week, maybe month, even when you go to England, then they turn into sort of like baby trout, like fish and a very small fly or a fly which is presented on the surface, could actually be the right thing. So there’s very specific options with salmon fishing, which has to do with the time that the salmon has stayed in the river. 00:07:33 Dave: Right, right. Exactly. So if they’re super fresh right out of the ocean, you’re down low. They’re going to be more active some of the bigger stuff. And then as they start to maybe get closer to spawning, you got to get a little more subtle. And what would be a small, um, maybe describe that. When is the tube fly? If somebody’s sitting there thinking about it? And again, I haven’t fished Norway, but I’m thinking, you know, Atlantic salmon and Newfoundland or the east part of North America. When would you use a tube fly, say, over another type of fly? 00:08:00 Jesper: Well, there’s two special reasons to use that. If you were using a big fly, say in my book, a big fly would be anything bigger than size six as a single hook. Then above that, that in my book is a big fly. And when you use a pattern bigger than that, then you have various options with a tube fly, and one of them is that you can put a small hook on and you would have like a big fly with a small hook on. And why would you do that? Because, uh, first of all, most of the salmon that we catch, we will put them back, say the vast majority of them go go back to for catch and release purpose. And if you target such fish with big hooks, you can easily destroy their mouth. But secondly, if you fish with a a a, say a size two or one tube fly, it’s easier to cast with on a small rod, which is a good thing. And last but not least, if you fish with such big hooks as size four two or one zero, or even bigger, when the fish bite that and you have a single hook fly. They tend to use these long shank hooks as a leverage, like a crowbar. You could say, and then break free of the hook hole. But if you’re using a a tube fly, the, uh, the little hook which is connected to the tube fly will will come off the tube and then you’re good to go. It’s easier to fight them as well. 00:09:33 Dave: Right. Yeah. Because that’s the other cool thing about the tubes is that, yeah, once you hook them now, the tube goes away and you’ve got just this little nice little octopus or whatever. The hook is right in the perfectly. Yeah. So that’s a big bonus. What is the. And typically hooks. What are you using for your hooks. What would you recommend. 00:09:50 Jesper: Well in in Denmark or no way you can use double hooks or treble hooks. And I think that the, the aspect of the, the tiny treble hook, the three dimensional aspect is what I would use on a small riffling edge flies. But if you were to fish in, say, North America for salmon, then it’s a no go. They would use the single hook, and for that I would recommend some of the small, coarse fishing hooks that people use for fishing carp, which is quite common to use over here for Atlantic salmon and sea trout as well. So it’s like hooks or similar hooks, but like white gate, but with a short shank on. I think that defines the the hook that I would recommend using on two flies. 00:10:36 Dave: And how do you spell that? Is it the Chinook hook here? 00:10:39 Jesper: We uh, these are from owner, which are a good Japanese brand. 00:10:43 Dave: Oh, yeah. 00:10:44 Jesper: Probably buy them over there, but it’s spelled c h I n u. 00:10:49 Dave: Okay. Yeah, yeah. Gotcha. 00:10:51 Jesper: It’s more or less a standard within, uh, hook companies. Many companies makes these hooks. And also another brand. Which or brand or brand name is Ikema, which is I s e a m a. 00:11:06 Dave: Yeah. Okay. So cheenu is like a style of hook. A style of hook. Yeah. So I’m looking at one here. I’m not sure if I’m looking at the owner. Cheenu five zero three five five single tube fly hook. 00:11:16 Jesper: Yeah that’s the. 00:11:17 Dave: one. That’s one. Okay, so so cool. So we got some hooks there and yeah those are just an owner obviously are super sharp great hooks. So so that’s the hook. And then well let’s just go in. We’re going to talk more about the hooks and the tubes and stuff. But let’s get into the gear because I want to hear what you’re using. So you know what’s your typical rod kind of length line that you’re using up there when you’re fishing for Atlantic salmon? 00:11:38 Jesper: Well, I’m I’m probably not the very typical guy in terms of what kind of tech I would use, but I use um, of course I use my safe rides and I, I absolutely love my old sage Z access rights, which I bought back in the day. Um, I think they’re probably twenty five years old. So I would use, um, switch rods, which is like a light double handed rod, but I would use it as a single rod, which is, um, something I do because it makes it enables me to control my hitch flies and my small flies. Great. And I love the lengths of such a long single hand rod as I use them. So I think they are about ten eleven foot or eleven twelve foot, some of them. So it’s a fairly long single hand rod, I would say. 00:12:38 Dave: Yeah. 00:12:39 Jesper: And those spots I use are actually a scientific endless line. And I brought this out just to be sure that I got all the details right. Yeah, I think I rate these as probably the best lines on the market. And it’s the Scientific Anglers call spotlight and it’s an integrated version. I use this like a for my eight rods. I use a four hundred and twenty grain integrated line. 00:13:06 Dave: And yeah. 00:13:07 Jesper: I think it’s almost thirty meters long. And I think the head is eight point two meters. I don’t know how much feet. 00:13:15 Dave: Yeah, it’s about twenty. 00:13:16 Jesper: The four hundred and twenty grain line, which is the heavier, heaviest version of the Speedlight from TGM, is for the eight rod. And then I have a three hundred and eighty grain which I use for my size seven rods. 00:13:30 Dave: Seven rod. Okay. And so now and are you casting this rod single hand or are you doing like Spey casting. 00:13:36 Jesper: Well I use it as a single hand rod. But I do what we Scandinavians call underhand hand. Cast. So it is a line which is locked on the water surface. And then I sort of like switch forward or roller coaster forward. And that specific line from three PM is really good for that. But at the same time, I can lift the whole thing out of the water and do a very long cast if I need that. And I might want to mention that almost all my salmon fishing is done with floating lines. 00:14:09 Dave: Yeah. 00:14:10 Jesper: And I think that’s also a great charm with the Atlantic salmon. Is it actually comes to the surface very curious on on things on the surface as the steelhead as well. 00:14:23 Dave: Yeah. That’s why we love them. Right. That’s why you love them. The action. The Atlantic salmon are known for coming to the surface. Dry flies. Riffle hitch. It’s interesting. We’ve talked. Um, I’m no spey master. You know, I do well enough that I can catch fish out there. But we’ve heard about the underhand cast. And over here, you know, a lot of times we’ll say a lot of people use Skagit now for all sorts of stuff, just because it makes it easier. You can cast floating lines, all that. But the Scandi stuff is great too, because it’s lighter. It works better, probably for summer steelhead and when you want to be on the surface, but it’s not as heavy, so it’s sometimes harder to cast what is. Now. Describe the underhand. How is an underhand cast? Maybe. I know it’s going to be hard here, but how is the underhand? What are you doing with cast? How is that different than, say, a snap t a any of the other Spey casts? 00:15:09 Jesper: Well, I think that the underhand cast is just a a way to proceed. I mean, to walk down the river and fish and it’s it’s just a comfortable, easy way to fish. I mean, we don’t use heavy equipment during the season, so a light switch forward is, is enabling me to pick up my leader, which is quite short, by the way. I use fairly short leaders about five foot and then an extension to that, which is uh, a bit of tippet material. So altogether like six or seven foot, um, leader. That’s it. Yeah. And then the uh, three, uh, Spey line, actually Spey light line is actually called. There’s a bit of confusion there on the box, but it enables me to also pick up fairly big flies like big dry fly bombers or a if I now and then use a, a heavy tube like a small heavy tube, which I also do on occasions. And um, the switch casting is just I think it’s a way of operating your, your fishing. Everything is quite close when fishing. When I fish, I fish smallish rivers and I then depend on, uh, flocking sixty feet of line out in the middle of the river. I tend to fish close to the bank. 00:16:32 Dave: Right. 00:16:33 Jesper: And target those fish that that are there. It’s a it’s a way of of fishing. Actually. 00:16:40 Dave: This year I ventured into the heart of eastern Idaho, Yellowstone, Teton Territory, where the fish were larger than life, and the waters held the secrets of the best fly fishing out west with crystal clear rivers like the Henrys Fork and the South Fork of the snake, and enough lakes to keep you going all year long. Make your way to Yellowstone, Teton Territory, and embark on a journey to one of North America’s finest fly fishing destinations. It’s time to experience Eastern Idaho for yourself and support this podcast at the same time. Fish the Fly Guide service is dedicated to sharing the incredible fly fishing opportunities around Jackson Hole. Whether floating the scenic snake River in search of native cutthroat trout, or hiking into the mountains to explore pristine tributaries, every day on the water is an adventure. You can join them for an unforgettable fly fishing experience in the heart of the Tetons at Fish Shutterfly dot com. It sounds like it’s an easier I mean, why would you cast more line or work your. I mean, the idea with the Spey rod is that it makes it easier. So you can fish all day even as you get into older age. Right. And that’s what’s great. Yeah. So essentially is it kind of a the underhand cast is basically you’re kind of doing it like a single Spey cast. Is that basically what it is? 00:17:51 Jesper: Yeah, you could say that. You could say that. And of course if the wind is upstream or the obstacles, then you could you could easily turn your switch rod into a a little spey fishing rod as it is made for both hands. But again, I tend just to use it as a just a long single rod, which is a great way to fish for salmon. I think it’s just convenient and nice to catch. Um, uh, small salmon. Yeah. And that’s what I mainly fish for. I fish many, many, many weeks during the season. I tend to do the whole season and the majority of the fish that I catch is fish. Around two kilos or one and a half, two kilos, which we call grilse. And then, now and then I catch a bigger fish would then will be a salmon, which is then fished more than four or five kilos. 00:18:45 Dave: Yeah, four or five. And I’m always trying to remember the conversion on the the kilos. Um, it’s, uh, let me just do it really quick. Yeah. You said. Yeah, basically two kilos. What is the conversion? Kilos to pounds. 00:19:00 Speaker 3: It’s about about. 00:19:01 Jesper: five pounds, I think. 00:19:02 Dave: Yeah, yeah. That’s right. It’s about double. Yeah. 00:19:04 Speaker 3: It’s about. 00:19:04 Jesper: five pounds. That’s the, the limit for some rivers they say grows is also four kilos which about nine, ten pounds. Yeah. Generally we would say that it becomes a salmon in fishing terms when it enters ten, twelve pounds. 00:19:22 Dave: It’s interesting on the weight thing because we all have them for different. I was up fishing for Chinook salmon on the swing in Alaska for the first time this year. And and they had these things called Super Jacks, which are adult Chinook. They just aren’t out at the ocean as long. It’s probably similar to this, and they almost aren’t even counted. You know, it’s like, okay, until you get a twenty pound Chinook or, you know, or fifteen, maybe you’re not even. And I and I get it, it is a bigger fish. But I think a lot of people fly fishing for not only these species, but all species. Size isn’t always the thing. You know, I think that a lot of people are catching. I mean, there’s people in our area catching four inch trout, like, literally four inches that are like, stoked because they’re a native fish. They’re up in the place. There’s only one place in the country you can find them. So I feel like, do you guys get some of that, or do you think the size it sounds like you’re more on that game where you’re not as worried about catching a giant fish. Do you think people, for the most part, are kind of trophy hunting, or do you think there’s a mix. 00:20:16 Jesper: A wooden point fingers than anybody? I would, I would rather say that I’m more volume man. I’m more volume person. I can’t afford fishing for big salmon. I mean, if you go to rivers where you expect to catch a big salmon, if they’re big, holding pools, great holding pools with big fishing, you would also expect be expect to pay quite a lot of money for that. And I as I fish so much I can’t do that. Simply it would be too expensive. Yeah but I for for me a salmon is a salmon. I mean my enjoyment of catching uh, one salmon during the season, which is difficult, could be the most interesting fish during the whole season, even if it’s just a small guy in the three pound range or something like that. It’s more the fish than it’s the size of them. Yeah, but saying that Atlantic salmon and Atlantic salmon is always interesting, because you might go down the river and catch a one and a three pound fish, and the next fish could actually be a forty pounder. Right. That’s how it is. It is like that with Atlantic salmon. They come in mixed in size, and even small rivers can have runs of very big fish, as you also have with the all Pacific salmon on the West coast. Some of those small rivers really have some big fish. Yeah, that’s what I’ve heard. 00:21:35 Dave: Yeah they do. Yeah. There’s a good mix of fish to there. So. So this is great. Well let’s hear you know specifically let’s talk about the tube. So we got your gear. We know you’re using lighter rods. You’ve got the spade lights. You’re using liters. That doesn’t sound like they’re super long. Um, no. Talk about the tube. And I have, you know, I know Calvin, I want to mention this because he he did have kind of a question. He said he said, well, he just made a comment. He said the fly tube was magical in Newfoundland for Atlantic salmon. So he had a great Atlantic salmon trip this year. I think he hooked seventeen fish mostly on your stuff that fishing like what is that v fly tube and why is it magical? 00:22:10 Speaker 3: That’s a. 00:22:11 Jesper: Good question. I’m quite humble about why a fly is good, and people who follow my page and read some of the stuff that I write about, it’s it’s often I’m not trying to be superstitious or voodoo type or anything, but I cannot put a a specific finger on something and say this is why it works. And I think that’s some of the great stuff. Also with the V line, which is a very simple fly, it’s about one point five centimeters. So really small, clear tube, sparsely dressed with some hairs on. And it doesn’t show much off on the surface as, as you would when you think about wake flies and flies. For Stuart, you might think about something that turns up in the surface and makes a little splash there. But with some of these really miniature, uh, salmon flies as as the fly that Calvin mentioned, it doesn’t really show up on the surface. It’s just there. We know it’s in the surface, and I think that’s what they like. If I were to say, what is it that brings the good out of this boy? It’s actually so invisible. And I think that the part about being invisible. I think that’s the main thing between salmon and their prey. I mean, they’ve been practicing hide and seek for one hundred thousand years. And even at sea salmon, even rather big salmon would eat really small crustaceans. Really tiny stuff that you and I would think. How can they see that? I think our way of perceiving salmon and trout, we think that we need to show them something that they can see. But I think we we don’t really know how good they are at at perceiving things. I think they’re really, really good at it. So I think some of the magic about fishing small flies, as I do most of the season, and these flies that we mentioned before, the fly, which is a really tiny fly, it’s about tapping into the real world of salmon and trout. They’re so good at it. So they already know that. They already know that what they’re looking for is almost invisible. When that brings us to the surface. And that’s where the Wi-Fi is. And that’s where Calvin’s been fishing in Newfoundland. And I think fishing in the surface, which is our my prime sport and what, what we’re really interested in fishing is, is easier to catch salmon and trout, uh, probably also uh, to some extent steelhead in the surface. It’s just easier to trick them. It’s like if you fish underwater, you have to be really skilled and you have to be that ghillie type that stays at the river all, all season, like me. And then you, you’ll know the things change during season from day to day and and tapping into that, being a guest, coming to the river and listening to the guides and the locals and they will say, oh, you have to do this and you have to do that. But if you are at the surface and fish are interested in stuff as a surface, then it’s really easy. So that brings it down to the thing about why you fly when you go to Newfoundland or places like that. It’s just easier to catch them, the easier to trick. On the surface, for some reason, they are. 00:25:24 Dave: Yeah, right. So it’s easier to. And by the surface you mean like in the surface film with a wet fly or on the surface or both? 00:25:32 Speaker 3: Well, it. 00:25:32 Jesper: Would be both in, in this case, one of the great ways that you can catch Atlantic salmon during summertime and fairly early in the season as well. It’s like on a dry fly, which in itself is just great. Just think about the possibility of catching a a twenty pound fish on a on a dry fly. I mean, that is magic. I think that is something to look forward to when going fishing. But more than that, catching them on the fly seems so easy when it when they undertake. And that especially is with the the fresh incoming. But also later in the season they become interested in in a in a strange thing like a bomber, you know the the big dry drive like that? Yeah, that is so well connected with Atlantic salmon fishing. But at the same time, that’s when that doesn’t work. Things like Riffling Hitch and a Little fly can be really great, even in really difficult conditions. If I were to say something that that people can bring back to their own Atlantic salmon fishing, I would say that fishing with riffling hitch flies, like the fly or tiny flies, is one of the really few methods and flies that that work in extremely difficult conditions, like, you know, cold northerly winds. Uh, when it’s that cold that you can’t even unbuckle your shirt or something. 00:27:00 Speaker 3: Right. 00:27:00 Jesper: That that’s the conditions that you wouldn’t expect that the Atlantic salmon would come to the surface. But that is, in fact, one of the times when the tiny riffling hitch fly can work magic. And I don’t think many people think no, that. But that’s trick. 00:27:15 Dave: No, that is true. So? So it gets colder. Conditions aren’t perfect. And what you’re saying is the riffle hitch can work better than some of these other methods out there. What? What is maybe. Describe that. I know it’s not easy on this, but why does riffle hitch work better than, say, any other technique for Atlantic salmon that could be just fish in a bomber or fish in a wet fly? What is it about riffle hitch? 00:27:35 Jesper: Well, I’ll just start right off the bat then, saying it doesn’t work better than the others. It’s just like it’s just another card on your hand. I mean, there will be times where where the linkage is. Absolutely. The will catch most of the fish on the day. 00:27:52 Dave: So like you said, the hitch, like when it’s colder, the riffle hitch can work better. So why could it work better in that situation? 00:27:59 Jesper: All right, all right. Yeah, I don’t know. 00:28:01 Dave: Yeah. 00:28:02 Jesper: I don’t have to be very humble with that as well. Right. It’s just something that I’ve my, my thousands of hours spent at the river and often in, in horrendous conditions. That’s one of the few things that I’ve actually seen with, with the specifically with the linkage that it really works in these conditions and opposed to many of the other things. That doesn’t work like sunken flies or your dry flies. And it’s like the niche has that little key unlocking stuff, which is worth thinking. It’s something about if you are there on you say many Americans go to Iceland to fish for Atlantic salmon, that’s worth knowing that you can actually, on such horrible days with sleet and rain and whatnot, one degree Celsius temperature, you can actually unlock those salmon with a tiny ripping hitch. It’s worth remembering. 00:28:54 Dave: I think it is worth know. I love that know. And I’m excited because I’m going to be fishing that in Newfoundland, where we’re going at Mountain Waters Resort. They call it the Portland hitch, I guess down there because it’s a unique. But I think it essentially is just a hitch. And what it is, is you can take a wet fly like your fly or any wet fly, and you can put the riffle hitch in. It becomes kind of a I don’t know, do you call it a wake or a skater? It creates a, a little commotion on the surface right as it’s swinging. 00:29:19 Jesper: It’s the, it’s the way to go for riffling hitch fly fishermen on Newfoundland and mainland Canada as well. It would be the way that they fish. I’ve been to Newfoundland once and it was a great experience, and we met nobody who fished with the hitch in, in the way that we do. And just to describe that, some of your listeners are thinking, what is this with the rippling hitch and the tube? It’s like we just take small tube flies and then we have I mean, the line would normally run straight through and you would tie your hook at one end and then you would and the fly would be on your tippet. But on the rippling hitch version, we sort of have a hole which is situated in the belly of the fly. So it’s a bit like dragging a otter. Or if you were to drag your boat in the river and the ghillie would be on shore and pulling the boat. You can also do it. 00:30:18 Dave: With. 00:30:19 Jesper: Bigger vessels like that. So the fly actually pulls sideways and it will pull. If it’s designed well, it will pull to the surface and then it will stay there. So it’s quite an easy way to fish. What you would do with the Portland hitch and the double hitch on the small hooks. 00:30:35 Dave: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s right. And do you when you guys fish those maybe describe how you do it. Do you fish it differently whether you’re on river left or river right. Or are you tying the knot differently or talk about that or and on top of that, some of this that we can’t see tell us where we could go to see some of this, this stuff. 00:30:53 Jesper: Well yeah. Well you, you can go to our main, we have, I think, one hundred pages on fish comm, which is, um, mainly surface fishing for salmon and trout and steelhead, of course, which is where the trout type fish as well. So we dedicated these pages to trying to document historic things like when was this? Wake fly made or when who made the first hitch flies. And there there’s also descriptions on how to do your own. Uh riffling hitch flies and techniques regarding this, so that I would recommend that. But if you were to, you asked me if I how I would tie it on depending on where I fished, on what bank on the river. There’s some discussion about that, that you can have a hole in one side of your tube, and you can have it in the left on the right side, depending on what side of the river that you fish. I tend to have my tube flies just with a hole in the belly, so it doesn’t matter if I’m on left or right bank. Uh, so I think that describes it quite well. Yeah. I would like to mention something when we’re talking about, uh, difficult fish and hitch, uh, flies and me using short leaders. There will be probably some of your listeners out there thinking, do you not scare the fish when you fish with short. 00:32:21 Dave: Right. 00:32:21 Jesper: And to some extent, yes. And I mean people fishing sinking fly lines know that they also scare the fish with the sinking line. And on that they have a very short leader, very often at least over here. But they will still hook up with salmon and sea trout as well. And that’s what I’ve learned. Fishing quite short leaders on my, uh, floating fly lines doesn’t pose a problem as long as the leader is on the water. As soon as floats on the water, it casts a shadow. And that shadow is what frightens the fish in my book anyway. So when fishing on low water in general, I use, uh, hover leaders or intermediate leaders. Even when I fish for with rippling headshot dry flies, the short leader doesn’t pose as a problem. It doesn’t drown the fly, and there’s no shadow to be cast on the on the fish. So it’s quite a good way to approach fish on shallow water is to use, uh, these sinking, I say, thinking, but they are like slightly sinking leaders. 00:33:32 Dave: Yeah, just below the surface. And then what was your length again? Did you say five feet or what’s your typical leader length? 00:33:36 Jesper: Yeah, yeah, I use these, uh, pulley leaders, which is now it used to be an English company called Airflo, but it’s been bought by Americans now. And I would say that leaders like that in the five to seven foot range is, is something that really works magic on when you’re fishing small flies. When you’re fishing for Atlantic salmon, many people tend to use too heavy equipment. 00:34:02 Dave: Yeah. 00:34:02 Jesper: That’s okay. I mean, if you if you’re there with a sketch line or you know that you will have to put a leader on it. And if you’re there with a size ten or eleven, uh, floating salmon fly line, it’s a good idea to attach something to that fly line or sketch line that will make your fly come alive. Because I think some anglers tend to forget that they are fishing for species like Atlantic and Atlantic salmon and sea trout. These can be difficult fish to, to, uh, to get to the hook. So if you make it all too stiff and rigid, you just scare more fish. And I think that one of the foremost, um, fish attractors on my equipment is the fact that I use these lively, soft leaders that I do, which is actually an extension to my fly line. 00:34:56 Dave: Yeah, right. 00:34:57 Jesper: See through extension. I do recommend them for anybody Fishing for difficult fish. Just try it out. I think people will be amazed with that. 00:35:06 Dave: And that makes sense. I mean, maybe you can clarify in the poly leaders for those that haven’t used those. So you have your you have your Spey line. You talked about it. You’ve got your kind of the the Spey Lite. Right. So you’ve got this and you also have on the end of that Spey line, that Spey Lite a tip like a floating tip or is it just what does that look like. 00:35:24 Jesper: Well you have your, your floating Spey lite uh, in my case line. And then to that I direct I attach the poly leader. 00:35:35 Dave: Yeah. The poly leader. So so that is your essentially that’s your tip. 00:35:38 Jesper: That is my extension. Yeah. And then to that poly leader I attach a piece of tippet material which will be in most cases it will be like a ten twelve pound leader material. 00:35:50 Dave: Just straight straight ten. 00:35:51 Jesper: Sometimes a bit thicker depending on what fish is in the river or what kind of fly fish with. 00:35:56 Dave: Yeah I see, so you use the poly leader which is clear. And then you have your tip. So essentially it’s almost like you got this a ten foot poly leader with your five foot leaders, like a fifteen foot leader, kind of. Right? 00:36:06 Jesper: No, it’s like I have my poly leader, which will be about five to six foot or seven foot. I make them myself, depending on what I need. Gotcha. And then to that I attach a fifty centimeter piece of nylon tippet material. So it will be maybe total length will be seven eight foot. So not not much. 00:36:26 Dave: Okay. Seven eight. Gotcha. Yeah. So pretty short. 00:36:28 Jesper: If I need something longer than that, say, I want to be more stealthy or or have a, like a more sinking action at the end, because that’s what it is. If you if you put on a ten or fifteen foot intermediate leader on, you will drag your fly further down underwater than I actually want when fishing on the surface or that’s the problem. Yeah, well, it’s not a problem. It’s an option. So I want if I wanted to go say Five centimetres below, which is about ten inches, which is the normal way to alter fish for Atlantic salmon. I would then use maybe a ten ten foot intermediate leader, but for most of my fishing it would be a fairly short pulley leader and then a piece of fairly soft tippet material, which is also something I advocate about or something. When I recommend something to people, I say think about your leader as the very last bit of um, how would you say helping helping hand on on. 00:37:31 Dave: Movement. 00:37:32 Jesper: On the fly there? If you put a too stiff leader on at the very end where you tie a fly on, you will get less fish on your on your hook. 00:37:40 Dave: That’s interesting. I love this conversation because in the steelhead world over here, and I think at some Atlantic salmon people maybe use this as well. But maxima has been the standard for leader and I use it. I love I’ve always loved eight pound. You know, just because we’re not huge fish, I feel like it gives it more movement. But people like when we’re going to Skeena, they use twenty pound maxima. And I feel like like they’re still steelhead and I guess they still get the what? What is your take? What is the actual brand of material you use? 00:38:08 Jesper: Well, it’s just like you. I mean, my go to, uh, tippet material is the, uh, maxima chameleon. The brown. 00:38:16 Dave: Oh, yes. 00:38:16 Jesper: Material. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there’s lots of talks about will the salmon see this material and why is it brown? And don’t you need clear and all that? And from my experience, which is many thousand Atlantic salmon and most of them have been caught on brown maxima, it doesn’t pose a problem. I mean, there’s there’s lots of other species that break away from, uh, material like brown maxima, lots of saltwater fish that wouldn’t like that. And I also hear this when I speak to fellow anglers that they prefer their fluorocarbon, which is also something that you and I wrote about earlier that this is something I don’t use. I don’t I don’t see that it makes any difference in the amount of fish that are caught over the years using fluorocarbon in the aspect of the fish. See the leader. If they do, they don’t care at least. So it might not be such a big problem as people tend to think. 00:39:15 Dave: Yeah, okay, well this is awesome. I think this is good where we’re going here. Talk about now you’re in the water. You’ve got the um, essentially you’ve got your setup. Let’s just take it to the v fly that we talked about with the riffle hitch. When you’re sitting there, talk about how you’re fishing that fly, um, you know, where you’re casting, how you’re swinging it. Do you fish it or is this just, like, cast out and let it swing? 00:39:38 Jesper: Well, it’s like, um, people who fish with hitch know that this is a low water technique more than anything. I mean, if you are on the bottom and you are your salmon and you’re looking upwards, the window that you look through is quite small and the more shallow it gets, the more difficult it actually is for the fish to see stuff coming its way. So fishing on the surface is with a riffling hitch would be something I would use in a low water type condition, like in a fast run for instance. I like I really love fishing these these tiny riffling hitch fly like the fly in a fast run. And many people would would maybe pass by a fast run and think, well, the salmon will only be here for a short while. Yes, it will only be there for a short while. And if there’s an obstacle out there, they might stay there a bit longer. But it’s not the preferred place for salmon to stay. So many of these fast runs, people will pass by and find a pool where they will go and fish. I prefer those places. I prefer that fast run, and I would seek out the salmon there with my hitch, and I look for them, see if they make a little shimmering thing out in the water, or I see a little splash from the moving in the water. And then I would put my fly across on the fish, or I would tap them on the water. I don’t know if you got this in America, but dabbing is like you put your fly on and then you just like up and down, like in a in a pulsing movement. 00:41:12 Dave: Oh, right. Right. You’re moving. You’re moving your tip up and down. 00:41:15 Jesper: Yeah. It’s just like it’s a technique that you also use on on lakes in Scotland and Ireland. Yeah. Where you fish with dry flies just like they hop. They like jump on the surface, which is a really good technique as well with dry flies for salmon. But that’s another story. But that’s how I literally would fish it. I would target fish in places where I know they are in shallow water, and then I would fish across or position the fly right on them and expect them to hit it immediately, immediately. 00:41:43 Dave: So yeah, you see a fish that and that’s the cool thing about these fish is you will see they will well Atlantic salmon make their presence known. Is that how you know where they’re at? 00:41:53 Jesper: Especially in the beginning of the season, is in Scandinavia. It will be June, end of June, July. They show themselves quite well, and often when they come into a pool, they will show, and some of the fish that are already in the pool very often show when new fish arrive. Even if the new arrivals don’t show themselves, the the occupants will show themselves. So in that way the salmon is is an obvious target. We know where they are very often, and in that way I would then fish for them where they I know where they are. 00:42:29 Dave: Check out Jackson Hole Fly Company today. 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But I would say that the I would like the fly to be like in the ten twenty centimeter in front of the fish, swinging over the fish. And if it is like this with the Atlantic salmon, ninety nine percent of them will not take the fly if you pull the fly away from them for some reason. And if you were. I remember speaking to my my dear old friend Bill Bryden, who’s a guide and used to be a guide on on Newfoundland was written with for numerous years, and he would say it has to do something with the way that the pa, the salmon pa lived in the river system. If the food coming towards the fish present itself as something that salmon can go and grab without using much energy, it will do that, right. It would just flicker its fins and then rise to the surface and then grab the food. But if the food and how you say fly away from. 00:44:32 Dave: The escapes tries to get away from him. 00:44:34 Jesper: Yeah, it won’t use the same amount of effort or energy to consume it or try to consume it. And I think the Darwin will agree with me that if it did so, it probably would die at some point. So it has sort of like a, a level of curiosity. And then beyond that it’s sort of like, yeah, I’m not doing that. So that is with with the Atlantic salmon. It likes things coming towards it, rubbing down on it or even coming sideways on it, but being pulled upwards. No good, no good. So a well presented fly lands near the fish and then swings over its head. 00:45:13 Dave: Yeah. 00:45:13 Jesper: And then it will come up and grab it. Hopefully. 00:45:16 Dave: So you could be if that fish was directly out at you at ninety degrees, you could make that cast or if it was forty five. Or is the degree matter, you know, whether you’re going broadside or more down and across. 00:45:27 Jesper: Well, it’s a good question. If the fish is ninety degree, you know, right in front of me, I would probably back up a bit upstream and then present the fly for it. But saying that the Atlantic salmon really likes to be fished on a ninety degree thing. It’s just another situation. It’s another, maybe even another fly. And if you were talking about fishing ninety degree on fish, which is something I do really often, I and if it was a wet fly or say a fly, I would then fish it across the fish pulling it like that or um, even having it coming upstream. So I would fish it a bit upstream and then pull down on the fish. They like that. Salmon really likes that. 00:46:16 Dave: And what do you mean by pulling down on the fish? 00:46:18 Jesper: Well, it’s like if you were casting upstream, obviously everything would come, come down towards the fish at some point. Yeah. But you need to give the fly some speed. And speed is a is a killer with salmon and sea trout as well. As long as it’s ninety degree on it or coming upstream, it works well with salmon. And they will actually chase that downstream. It’s sort of like it gives them the upper hand on, on the whole situation, and they will come rushing through it. So if you were, as you describe, seeing a fish on a ninety degree thing, I would then put on a, a small tube fry like a small sunray or like a half an inch or something like that, and then fish that right on the fish right across its back, and then pull like you were fishing in saltwater. For tropical species, fish speed is a key thing with with Atlantic salmon. Definitely. Okay. So that’s another. 00:47:16 Dave: That’s a key. And then but then what you’re saying is you’re casting more down across. You don’t want to take the fly away from them. Right. Because you want it to make it easy. 00:47:23 Jesper: No, you don’t want to pull it upstream. In any case you want to you can fish straight across ninety degrees, or you can cast upstream and pull the fly down on the fish. Or you can fish, uh, fishing across them downstream forty five degrees, like a regular way of fishing. 00:47:41 Dave: Just letting it swing. Yeah. Do you? When you’re fishing out there, you know. Are you doing the cast? Step down. You know, work your way down a run or. Because I know in Newfoundland it’s more you get your spot. And I don’t know if that’s because there’s more, you know, limited spots, but what does it look like for you? 00:47:57 Speaker 4: Well, it’s like. 00:47:58 Jesper: I remember being in in Newfoundland. It was like, I remember we were fishing at something called, uh, Upper Humber, which is the famous place. You should go there. Okay. It’s a treat. Yeah. And it was like being at the pier. I think everybody was coming out in the waves. Everybody saying hello, buddy. I thought that everybody in Newfoundland would call buddy. Yeah. It was just an endearment for being a your friend. Your friend like that. And so they went, uh, neck and neck and, uh, just waiting for the fish coming through, which they did, like, it’s like a if anybody has tried it, it’s like. It’s like a silver wave of fish coming upstream. Yeah. They come in on the tide, which is another thing that we could talk about one day, but the whole tidal thing, and then they would expect to hook up with one or maybe more fish, depending on what their license were. And but my fishing, and I think for many Scandinavians is that you would take a cast and then fish your line and then take another cast depending on obviously if you were fishing, uh, like dry fryer would readily fish my dry fries upstream or across the stream. Then then it’s a different scene. But yes, I would take a step and do another cast. And on that note, another really important detail that which I tell people when I go guiding is that if you fish on shallow water or low water, taking a step can be too much. I mean, if you are fishing for fish on half a meter or a meter of water, you need to really pay attention and then only Let out, say, ten centimetres of line on each cast. So you actually you have to be very thorough, uh, with low water. It’s different when you fish on deeper water. You can do a cast, and then you can take a couple of steps or one step, and then you will be covering the fish. But if you are on very low water, you have to take out a little bit of line and then do your next cast or just to do a little step if you like, because the fish don’t see you fly in the same manner as they do on deeper water. So shallow water, shallow water. 00:50:13 Dave: Yeah. 00:50:13 Jesper: Take it easy. And then on deeper water. Yeah a cast and then forty five degree and then take a step. 00:50:20 Dave: Yeah that’s. 00:50:21 Jesper: Right. This is different. 00:50:22 Dave: There it is. What is the deepest water you might fish for Atlantic salmon. 00:50:27 Jesper: Oh yeah. During the season three metres I think. 00:50:31 Dave: Yeah three metres. So pretty deep. 00:50:32 Jesper: I have friends who fish very deep water like eight ten meters water. 00:50:37 Dave: Wow. 00:50:38 Jesper: And up in Norway. And they would use a really hefty sinking line and lots of how you say, um, heavy grains of of sink. Tip for. 00:50:48 Dave: That. Yeah. 00:50:50 Jesper: Biggish flies. It’s not my kind of fishing, but I’m more low water person. 00:50:55 Dave: Yeah, yeah. Low water. No, I love it. No, this is cool. So. So we’ve got this. So we’ve got an idea of how you’re swinging. Um, anything else we should be thinking about here for, you know, fishing these flies. Like, when would the. You talked about the riffle hitch? When would you not want to fish a riffle hitch? When would you just fish a wet fly? Your tube, say the fly just was straight, you know, without anything. 00:51:16 Speaker 4: It depends on what. 00:51:18 Jesper: River I’m fishing. But normally my riffling hitch fishing is in periods and a great period is with the fresh fish coming in and then into August, mid August, in mid-August. It’s sort of like a change with things and if I was bold, I would say that it has to do with the insect life and whatnot, but I’m not sure about that. But it’s sort of like it switches off at some point and I cannot put a ring around the date, but it’s sort of like mid late August. It tends to, um, be fewer fish on, on the, uh, on the riffling hitch. And immediately after that it really works well with like small bucks, which is also a like type drive like type fly that you would fish just subsurface. I know that the people fishing for steelhead is well acquainted with the word buck, but. 00:52:14 Dave: What is that. 00:52:14 Jesper: Called. 00:52:15 Dave: What’s that called again? 00:52:16 Jesper: A buck sort of like bug. It’s um, you have like a, well, a famous buck, which everybody knows I think is called the Green Machine. 00:52:26 Dave: Oh, the green machine. Yeah, yeah. 00:52:28 Jesper: Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s a bug in in the that kind of family of, um, of interesting, uh, flies that you could fish both floating and as a wet fly. It’s actually, if it’s fish correctly in my book, it’s more or less how you say same weight as water. 00:52:50 Dave: Oh, right. 00:52:50 Jesper: It will present itself in such a manner that you can actually fish for fish that you wouldn’t be able to fish with, with a normal forty five degree technique, or even ripping flies, and you wouldn’t be able to fish in really these really slow pools. 00:53:07 Dave: Right. 00:53:08 Jesper: That you you tend. 00:53:09 Dave: To see. 00:53:10 Jesper: The salmon. And I know that some of the steelhead fishermen fished there. Yeah, I like the box for that because and they, they tend to like fill out a little void when the fishing is over. And then you could you can either grease them up and fish them just on the surface or just below the surface, but right in those pockets of really slow water where the fish are lying. Oh, those are great. I think that many people do not see that, at least over here in Scandinavia. I need those of you who come from Canada and Newfoundland. You know exactly what we’re talking about. It’s another speciality that we, you and I could have a whole program on. 00:53:51 Dave: No, this is a whole nother thing. The bugs are. I mean, this is new to me. I mean, I mean, I’ve seen these, but I have never really fished this. But it is, is just a, you know, it’s just a fly without a wing, you know? It’s like a hackle, a heavily hackled fly that’s got a kind of a fatter body. It looks like it kind of looks like it might be a wet fly, but also kind of a dry fly. It’s almost like. It’s almost like a, you know, I’m trying to think of what a bomber looks like, but the idea being is it’s not going to sit down in the surface because it’s got these hackles that are almost armored. It looks like, or maybe. 00:54:22 Jesper: Some of them are like miniature bombers in the way that they have this little body made out of their hair. 00:54:27 Dave: Oh, that’s deer hair. That’s like diet. I’m looking at a green one. So this is deer hair. Body? 00:54:32 Speaker 4: Yes. 00:54:33 Jesper: Deer hand. 00:54:33 Speaker 4: Itself. 00:54:34 Jesper: Is also a magical thing. I mean, if you were to you’ve asked me questions about why is this line good and why is this line good? I would say that natural materials like feathers, hair, and especially deer hair just have that magnetic effect on trout and salmon. It definitely has that. I mean, even back from Roman times, some of the descriptions from old literature, it’s back to the old things. It’s wool, its feathers from capes of hens and cocks and that and it just has that effect. I think that if there weren’t much food, I think that fish would eat readily, eat feathers and pelts and hair and stuff like that. It just has some form of protein in it that they will eat that. Those are one of some of the few things that you will find inside trout and salmon if you kill them to eat them. Sometimes you actually find stuff like, oh. 00:55:29 Dave: And bugs. 00:55:30 Jesper: They do eat that. They don’t eat little pieces of bark and plants and stuff like that. You never find anything like that or small rocks, but you will find the organic materials like feathers and. Yeah, yeah, sorry about the nerdy thing, but that’s like another thing. 00:55:45 Dave: I like it. This is good. So we got that pattern. So that’s kind of it. So as you get into mid-August you might be switching to something, getting away from the hitch, getting to something more like a bug. And then when would just a straight up like wet fly, you know, when. 00:55:57 Jesper: It will be. It will be in the same period. It’s sort of like with the tiny box that I use. And I also turn on to really small, um, single hook flies like your size twelve and your size ten, and even smaller than that. And one pattern which I like is the, the, the blue charm, which is like a dull greyish black fly with a bit of blue on it. 00:56:22 Dave: Right. 00:56:22 Jesper: And it goes well into when you come into August like it becomes. The forest becomes a bit darker some. The water gets a bit tinted, even if it’s very low, but also if there’s a bit of rain. And I think the where I fish up in northern Norway, but the hatches of of cats picks up, as it does in late season for steelhead as well in the northwest. And I think that that hatch of, of caddis flies makes the, um, the salmon more prone to hitting small single hook patterns like the blue, like little dull greyish things. They like that. 00:57:01 Dave: Yeah. That’s awesome. Well, one of my. I’m actually heading out steelhead fishing this weekend. I’m going to be hitting the Deschutes. It’s like it’s prime time. You know we’re talking mid September October. And one of my favorite patterns is kind of after my dad, who invented the Max Canyon, was an orange and black. You know, orange is a color that wasn’t. And so but we tie a fly we call it the Stuart kind of after our namesake, but we it’s more just a black fly. It’s got a little bit of orange. It’s got a couple strands of crystal flash. It’s like size eight usually maybe size six, but it’s really sparse, you know, almost low water style, just a little speck in the water. And that thing is a killer out there for him. It works great you know. Yeah. Similar probably to Blue charm because a blue charm is not a bulky fly. It’s pretty sparse, right? 00:57:43 Jesper: It is in. The patterns I use are definitely sparse. And I think I think what you can do with small flies in general, you can just present your fly in such a way that you can actually lure a great majority of the fish which are in the pool. Say if you were to fish across these fish, this is something we haven’t spoken about. The attention span of fish. If you’re if you’re fishing for Atlantic salmon, I don’t know how it works with steelhead, but I imagine it would be more or less the same. If you come to the pool and you’re the first guy to fish. Yeah, you have the opportunity of presenting your fly to these fish in a way that actually will probably stir some of them up, and they will bite. If you were there as number five or number six, it will be more difficult. And they will be that for several reasons. But first of all, you’ve used up some of the attention that the that the fish has. If I were just going to focus on the Atlantic salmon, I would say that the attention of the salmon is like a glass of malt whisky. There’s a little bit in the bottom and that’s good, but as soon as you start presenting your fly there, that little bit of attention, which is described as the whiskey in the glass, it disappears quickly. And if you want that attention again, you have to wait for. 00:59:02 Dave: The next pour. 00:59:03 Jesper: Yeah, the next couple of hours, or for some instance, some fish, even the next day. 00:59:08 Dave: The next. 00:59:08 Jesper: Day, or maybe a couple of. 00:59:09 Dave: Days, which is what’s great, which is what’s great about Atlantic salmon. An anadromous fish is that you can, you know, the next day, the next morning, they’re likely might be some new fish coming in from the ocean. 00:59:18 Jesper: Yeah, yeah. But going back to the small flies in, in terms of what we just talked about, the attention span, if you were to fish these fish, for instance, like if you were to fish for this same Atlantic salmon with a dry fly, which is something I often start with, then you don’t use the attention from the fish in the same way, if you were to present it with a rather big fly. It’s actually like you can fish for them with the dry fly, and then you can fish for them with the wet fly. 00:59:48 Dave: Oh, right. 00:59:49 Jesper: Yeah. 00:59:49 Dave: So start with the dry fly if you can, because you’re not going to use as much attention. And then if, if you don’t get one come back with a wet fly in your second pass. 00:59:57 Jesper: But if also in terms of fishing with small patterns or big patterns, if you were fishing in a pool, say there were two or three Atlantic salmon there in the spot, and you were to present those fish with a like a common pattern, which is a general practitioner, which is like a, a prawn or shrimp like fly. You might get a bite, but you might also scare the other fish and you might take all the attention away from the fish. Rather, fish for those fish start out by. Like I said, you could start fishing with the dry fly on them, and then afterwards you could maybe present a fly on them. And then later in this you could put a tiny wet fly on them in such a way that if you do this, you will have more attention. You will have more to work with than rather rushing down the pool with a big wet. 01:00:51 Dave: Big wet fly. Do you find when you’re. I’m not sure how you’re waiting, but in some of the runs we fish, there’s an opportunity because the water is only a few feet deep. You can wait out. There are ways. Do you find the waiting? Or people walking on the rocks is just as much of a way to spook fish as what you’re saying here. Are you worried much about that when you’re out there fishing? 01:01:11 Jesper: Well, it’s a another interesting thing to talk about. And I’ll probably viewers, our listeners out there saying he’s all wrong. 01:01:19 Dave: My right. 01:01:20 Jesper: My my approach on this is that if you fish for sea trout or sea run brown trout, they’re really difficult. It’s like fishing for fish that are inside a drum. If you make a noise or flick of your hand, or even the the sun shining on your rod and sending these out to the sea trout, they’ll be scared and they won’t come back and all that. And that’s true with the Atlantic salmon. The Atlantic salmon is scared if you make a shadow. Yeah, they are aware of predators coming from above. Maybe in the back in the day. Eagles and bears and whatnot. But you can actually walk straight up to Atlantic salmon in your waders without scaring it. It might sound stupid, but it’s part of it. I mean, they’re not as scared as the timid as as the trout. Definitely not so. 01:02:09 Dave: Yeah. 01:02:10 Jesper: As long as you don’t jump around on the bank and wave your arms and and whatnot, You’re fairly good with wading in the water. 01:02:18 Dave: Right? So if somebody’s out there, I’m thinking you’re in a run. You got your friend ahead of you. He fishes through, doesn’t hook anything. Maybe you’re maybe he’s waiting out to his knees and fishing out. You know, you get, you know, hookups in the in the hang down a lot with steelhead. But. And then I come through behind him and I’ve done this before where I’ve hooked fish behind people that are in front of me and vice versa. And that’s just because the fish are there. They might move out of maybe that little spot, that little bucket, but maybe they come back in. What do you think they’re doing? Or do you think they’re just holding there while your friends walk and buy them twenty feet away or whatever? 01:02:50 Jesper: It’s a good question. Well, it’s nice to know. I mean, I’ve heard this about, uh, actually, now that you say it, I’ve heard about other steelhead fishermen picking fish out of the, uh, the guy in front of pocket. I don’t know what you. 01:03:04 Dave: Describe it, but. Yeah. 01:03:06 Jesper: Yeah, but the they are anglers that actually also like the, um, this form of fishing that they all come in as number two and number three and then catch fish behind the other guys. And I think what these guys are doing is more or less what I’m doing. They would fish a really small fly. They would actually just aim to get those really difficult fish that’s seen many flies and are not interested in a big presentation, something, some kind of fish that are more into the hatching of insects. That’s probably what you’re seeing when you. 01:03:40 Dave: That’s what it is when. 01:03:41 Jesper: You. 01:03:42 Dave: When. 01:03:42 Jesper: You fish through and and you come. 01:03:44 Dave: In subtle. 01:03:45 Jesper: Yeah, I think so. 01:03:46 Dave: I think that’s awesome. Well, cool. Jesper. Well, this has been great. We’re going to take it out of here with our wet fly swing Pro shout out and section. And then I got a couple random questions for you, and then we’ll take it out of here. So today this is presented by Patagonia’s Swift Current Waders. They’re an awesome partner this year for us. We’re excited I’ve been loving my Patagonia waders. They’ve got a couple of cool features on them. I’m one of those guys that I just love putting on waders. I don’t know what it is, but I know some people hate it. But I put on my waders and I remember when I was on the Skeena for the first time, we went in the fall and it was freezing. It was like we were camping out of our boat, and I literally wore the waders. I got out of my tent and I put the waiters on. I wore them all day until I went to bed and you know what I mean? So. So you’re the same. So first off, we want to give a big shout out to Patagonia. They got some good stuff going. They’re great on the conservation end. And our shout out to our wet fly swing pro community is to Calvin. We mentioned before Calvin’s been doing some great stuff with your your patterns. And so we want to give Calvin a big shout out here for you. My question for you starting off on the gear is you know, what is that maybe talk about that. I always am interested on the other side of the pond where you guys are at. What’s your gear? Are you, um, you know, it sounds like you got some waders on. What’s your waiter of choice? 01:04:53 Jesper: Well, my my waders of choice is, of course, the Patagonia waders. Um, I’m not sponsored. I’m good friends with the. 01:05:01 Dave: Oh. You are. Oh, wow. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. 01:05:04 Jesper: And he’s he’s actually the guy that you would if he comes in behind you when you still hit fishing, he’ll be the guy picking them out of your pocket, right? 01:05:12 Dave: Because he’ll be using the pheasant tail, right? He’ll use something like he’s got. 01:05:16 Jesper: He wants. He sent me one of his, uh, uh, speciality flies, which is made for that. And I think that some of the people listening in will probably know the fly as a toothpick. Fly? It’s actually a sort of like a little surface fly. I might be persuaded to show it, show it to the viewers one day, but it’s a little fly with a little thing tied on top of it. So it actually scratches the surface. Okay, it has some peacock material in it and some brown feathers, and that’s all that’s about what I would say. But back to my equipment. 01:05:51 Dave: Yeah. So, so so you got the Patagonia. That’s a good connection with Yvonne there. So so you’ve got Patagonia going and you mentioned a couple other ones. What’s your give us a couple other brands or some gear that you love when you’re out there. 01:06:03 Jesper: Of course I’m on my sagebrush. So I have um I tend to buy a new modern state right now and then. And sometimes I’m given a road by Sage in Denmark. But I must say that the foremost greatest of them is still the Z axis. And shout out to everybody who, uh, who made these ruts. I think that they were just the thing. And at least in my world where I, I, I have close combat with fish. I mean, you you hook up with the salmon, it will be right in front of you within minutes or seconds sometimes. And that’s what it is. I mean, you have a sort of like accommodating rod that the z axis is, I mean, the method and, and some of the other rods that they made, which I also enjoy, but for other purposes were just a bit too stiff. And you would lose, uh, some fish on the invite. But saying that. 01:06:55 Dave: Yeah. 01:06:56 Jesper: I do enjoy some of the other sage works as well, but for my fishing it will be the Z axis, uh, size eight or the size seven, and even the size six during my summer. And for that I have my I tend to buy a old school either follows or yeah, Hardy real really like nineteen oh nine or nineteen twenties with a nice ratchet on which I then will listen to during the whole summer. Right. And then I would put it on the shelf, and then I would go looking for another one in that same. 01:07:28 Dave: So you’re a you’re a collector. It sounds like you’ve got a few, you’re a collector, you’ve got some good stuff. And you like the older stuff too. 01:07:35 Jesper: Well, I’m not as much as a collector as, um, I just like the sound of these old reels. And the fact that somebody else has used it before me is just great, I love that. 01:07:44 Dave: Yeah. That’s awesome. No, that’s. Yeah, I just got a new, um, one of the reels we love over here is lamps. And Nick is a good friend of mine as well. And so I got a new lamp. So I’m going to be using this week, which is exciting. It’s a yeah. Doesn’t have any click. Pretty quiet. The opposite. But um, so that’s good. Well, the question I have for you here a couple well just one here. So on steelhead flies. If somebody was I’m going steelhead fishing. What would you recommend I use for steelhead? And I’m not sure you know how much steelhead fishing you’ve done or if you talk to people about it, but like I’m going for summer steelhead, which I always feel like summer steel is about as close to Atlantic salmon as you can get. Because yeah, you know, a lot of the stuff I do, I learn from reading Atlantic Salmon books when I was a kid, you know, and stuff like that. But what fly would you recommend? Do you have one do you think might work? 01:08:30 Jesper: Well, I would just start out by saying that I have no experience with steelhead fishing in you and I’s part of the world. Yeah. It’s just, um, I mean, when I went that way, it was mostly for surface fishing for tuna. I went to Central America for ten years, but that’s another story. 01:08:47 Dave: Well, I was going to say the one thing I will say, just the when I look at that fly, the fly. We talked about the fly, that one. If I just tied that on a wet fly, just I mean, I feel like that fly would be a great pattern. 01:09:00 Jesper: Well, it’s like when we start out, uh, doing two flies and showing them to Americans. Fishing for steelhead. We actually hope that somebody would pick up on this and say, oh, that’s a smart technique that I can present a really how you say almost invisible fly, but still in the surface, right. And now and then I get letters from people that are actually tied. It’s like similar wake flies, uh, as it is as the flies, also as a term that’s a wake fly, but a subtle one. But that’s what I would suggest. You maybe use something in the line of, of the V line and maybe target some of those difficult fish that nobody really people really were interested in. I think that that could be a thing. 01:09:47 Dave: Yeah. Would it be okay if I fished that? Would fishing that fly just with a wet fly without any riffle hitch? Just a straight right. 01:09:53 Jesper: I do, I do fish it as a wet fly without a hitch as well. Definitely it is a is a see through fly and see through is is part of the mystery of flies for trout and salmon. Definitely. 01:10:06 Dave: Yeah. That’s what you want. Well, this is awesome. You know, I think the cool thing, Jasper, is we’re going to follow up with you and get more, maybe get you on on a webinar and we’ll dig more. I’m looking at your website now, fish. Com and I’m just looking at an article, the Riffling hitch article. You got a bunch of stuff in here on the history, even Portland Creek, you got a ton of stuff. So we’ll be sending people out to your blog to check you out. And, uh, this has been awesome until the next one. I appreciate all your time today, Dave. 01:10:31 Jesper: Same to you. It was nice speaking to you. 01:10:35 Dave: You can find Jasper’s Flies writing and resources at fish madman com. He dives deep into two, flies into hitching everything we talked about today. Go to his website right now. Let them know you heard this podcast on social media. That would be amazing. If you want to connect more and maybe get out for Atlantic salmon, you can check in with us. Wet Fly Swing Pro. This is our pro community. You can go to sign up there and we’ll follow up with you with some details. We’ll let you know when we open that up next. All right. We’ve got Atlantic salmon. Perfect timing. We’ve got Atlantic salmon week starting next week. If you’re interested to hear about this, we’re gonna have a big giveaway event. We’ve got a trip coming up here to Newfoundland. We talked about that today. So if you want to get involved in that stay tuned next week. As always, you can check there if you want to get in on this trip. We have a few slots that will be available that are still available. Send me an email Dave at com and I’ll let you know how that’s going. We’re heading to Mountain Waters Resort. It’s going to be an awesome trip uh, this year. So if you’re interested, check in with me now. I gotta get out of here. Hope you’re having a great morning. Uh, great afternoon. Or if it’s evening. Hope you’re enjoying it, and we’ll look forward to talking to you on the next episode.