701 | The Best Pop-Up Camper for Fly Anglers with Stan Kennedy of Four Wheel Campers

Dave (2s): This year I took a road trip with family across the country of over 5,000 miles. And for the first time on a road trip of this size, we had the four wheel camper on the back of the pickup. And although the trip wasn’t perfect, I have many amazing stories that were made possible with Four Wheel Camper. Today we’re going to talk about some of these stories so you have a better feel of why you might want to check out these pop-up campers for your pickup this year. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Hey, how’s it going? I’m Dave host of the Wetly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid. I grew up around a little fly shop and have created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts in this country. Dave (45s): I’ve also interviewed more of the greatest fly anglers and camper brands than just about anyone out there. Stan Kennedy, four wheel campers. The brand champion is going to take us into the history of the largest pop-up camper company in the country and how you can learn more information today. Today you’re gonna find out why the narrow profile, the low profile top, the aluminum frame and durability has set four wheel campers apart for many years. You’re gonna also find out how the Project M gives us a camper, but also gives us the full use of the pickup while we have the camper on there and how they did it all for around 400 pounds. A little bit over 400 pounds is all this thing weighs. Dave (1m 25s): We’re gonna get into all this details, plus you’re gonna find out about upcoming rallies and how you can learn more there and what happens if you forget to pop down your four-wheel camper. You’re gonna find out how these things are injured so well. You could be traveling highway speeds even with your pop-ups still popped up if you make that mistake. We’re gonna get into it all today. Here we go, Stan Kennedy from four wheel campers.com. How you doing Stan? Stan (1m 49s): Hey, good morning. How are you? Dave (1m 51s): I’m great, I’m great. I’m really excited about this conversation today because we’re gonna talk all things campers, four wheel campers and specifically, I mean, what you guys do best is the popup campers. I think for those that don’t know, I wasn’t totally aware I’d seen ’em out there before, but before I had one I didn’t know how great these things are and kind of all the uses and we’ve been using it for now. Gosh, I guess we bought it earlier this year. We had a big road trip on it, like over 5,000 miles. So we’re gonna talk about that today. But before we get there, let’s take it back first to you, like four wheel campers, how’d you come into working for this company? Stan (2m 25s): I kinda stumbled across it. I’m a northern California native, like born and raised in Northern California. And really I was working in the Bay Area for a few years and kind of just stumbled across it. It’s four wheel campus is only about 15 miles from my house. Dave (2m 43s): Oh, okay. Stan (2m 44s): And so found out about it, kind of started doing some research, did a couple drive-bys, looked at their website. This is 22, 23 years ago, so Oh wow. Yeah, it’s been a little while. I started here in 2002. The company’s been around since the early seventies, so I’m new on the scene, but I’m like, nowadays I kind of feel like the old timer here. So we’ve seen a lot and we’ve done a lot, but I just stumbled into it and I just, it looked like a very unique product that caught my eye and I started working here and I fell in love with him. Dave (3m 19s): Right. Have there been a lot of changes over the years in, you know, 20 years or whatever you’ve been there, have you seen a lot of changes, new companies coming in and out as you’ve been working there? Like new, like I see ’em out there, some, like even being around town, like when I drive I’m like, wow, that thing looks a lot like a four wheel camper. You know what I mean? Stan (3m 35s): Yeah. We had, I think we had the market share for a long time and we are still kind of the, the og, like the original popup campers other than the Alaskan campers up in in Washington that have also been around for a long time, probably longer than we have. And our market back in the seventies and eighties was hunting and fishing and outdoor people. But like you said, I think in the last five to eight years, especially with Covid, markets changed. There’s a whole new generation of people coming on board that are looking for this kind of product, whether it’s they’re just getting outdoors more. Stan (4m 17s): There was a period of time where people weren’t and then covid hit and then it spurred a whole new generation of people that want to go out and explore. Dave (4m 25s): Yep, exactly. That’s it. And the camper itself, maybe maybe we could start, we’ve got a bunch of history there, but maybe for those listening now that aren’t familiar with four wheel campers, maybe describe how, how do you describe to somebody who’s kind of new to what you do? Stan (4m 39s): So it’s weird because our company is, or a big company, we’re the biggest popup manufacturer, like popup truck campers in the the US probably in the world. Wow. But we’re invisible. Like if you don’t know what we are, like we’ve had customers come in, it’s funny, they, they’re like, my neighbor’s had one of these for about 15 years and I never noticed it in his driveway until I started looking at them. Right. And that now I see’em everywhere. So kind of like when you buy a new truck, a new car, you start to see that thing on the road. Yeah, we’ve been around forever, but it was all used to be a lot of like baby boomers and retirees and kind of the older generation and the last 10 to 15 years our demographic has grown and we’re getting more and more younger people, middle-aged people. Stan (5m 30s): And so anybody with a pickup truck, whether it’s big or small, they can throw it on their truck and go and they have complete like safety and comfort and they’re out of the weather and they’re off the ground and they still have a truck as a truck when they wanna take the camp out. Dave (5m 47s): Right. And that’s the cool thing about, you guys have a few things going on with this And you know, I look at it like because you do see the campers like the full size things on the back where they’re not pop up. And the thing about those, the thing I never really liked about those or I thought was a challenge is they’re so high and big and you get all this weight bouncing around and it’s just kinda cumbersome. The four wheel campers are, because they’re pop up and I, you could talk more about the dimensions, but they pop up like, you know, like a couple feet, few feet high, right? So it becomes this giant thing, but you pop it down when you’re driving and it’s almost like a regular, you know, canopy, you know, or a smaller can right on the back. So that’s what I really love about. And then we have the Project M, which is pretty cool because it becomes this thing where it can be the camper we’re sleeping up there, but like the other day I was loading wood into it and it’s on there all the time. Dave (6m 29s): Right. I’m driving around town with it, I don’t even take it off. So the pro, maybe talk about that a little bit. So the Project M versus some of the other models you guys have, you guys have quite a bit talk about the different selection of what models you have. Stan (6m 41s): Yeah, so over the years we always were just like slide in pop up truck camper guys and then we kind of expanded our market and added in more floor plans and more options. And then we added in flatbed camper models, which are a whole different beast, like kind of an all in to compete with like sprinter van kind of quality and comfort. And then in the last three years, three and a half years we expanded into the topper like popup camper shell in some, I guess in a few words, like it’s a bolts to the bed rails, leave your tailgate on truck beds wide open, but you still have what looks like a popup four wheel camper on there with, I don’t know, six foot most models, like six foot four or six foot six or more interior headroom. Stan (7m 33s): So you can stand up, you can move around, you can walk around and then you’re off the ground outta the weather and you have a big, big bed up top to sleep in. Dave (7m 40s): Yeah. That’s it. And and the bed is in ours we have a, a tundra, so it’s a full size pickup. And is the bed, it’s a big bed, is it a king size or what is the size of that? Full size. Stan (7m 51s): Yeah. It’s not exactly like the same king measurements, but it is like if it gets inside about 72 by 80, so pretty big. Yeah. Dave (8m 1s): And in it, the cool thing is you could, you know, if you weren’t super tall you could sleep across Right. You not, you don’t have to do it lengthwise. So you could, and we’ve been doing it ’cause I have a couple of you know, kids and with us four in there, you know, we could sleep all of of us up there if you wanted to, you know what I mean? And still have that room. And on our trip and we went across to Wisconsin, it was cool because one of the great things was this is the thing we struggle with. You’re out there driving on these road trips and it’s late sometimes. Right. And where do you camp? And if you had to put up a tent and find a campground, that’s hard to do. But if you got this popup, and we did this a few times, we just pulled off the side of the highway sometimes the freeway into a town and we popped it up right there, slept, you know, popped it down in the morning we were out, had breakfast at the local place, you know. Dave (8m 42s): Do you feel like a lot of people are doing that? Or is there a mix of people doing that in the hardcore camping? Stan (8m 48s): No, that’s so common. I think a very, maybe a small percentage of our camper owners are no end up at like traditional RV park or KOA, but that’s probably like 1%. I think the 99% of the people, they’re off the grid. They don’t typically want to pay for $50 campsite for a night just to sleep for four or five hours. So they’ll find a, a little side street or they’ll pull off the side of the road or BLM land and pop it up and do their thing. Get up in the morning, have some coffee and hit the road again or make camp depending on what they’re doing. Dave (9m 27s): Yeah, that’s cool. And we’ve heard that out there. In fact, just this weekend we were, right now it’s kinda the holidays and we were out in a Trader Joe’s parking lot. That’s the other cool thing about these, right? You can literally park this thing in a normal lot. Like I backed it right into Titan, trader Joe’s, the parking lot was so tight that I could, people were hawking at each other, but I was able to park right there and this guy was behind me and he was, I get this right, you’re out there and people look at you a lot now. Right? And he looked and I was in the back and I opened up and I said, Hey, you got got any questions? And he is like, oh man, he, he just started talking about it. He was, you know, basically complaining about how his camper was so big and tall And you know, and I was like, yeah man, this is kind, this is great. And so we get that a lot out there and it’s been kind of fun. But what do you feel is, are the best features other than the popup? Dave (10m 8s): I mean that’s obviously a thing that is what you guys are, that’s your name, your name’s sake of sort of thing. But what are the other features people really love about these campers? Stan (10m 16s): I mean, well I think what’s kept us going all these years and, and what’s kept the market going and our popularity is like the maybe top three to five things is we kind of focus on making the campers narrow so they, it’s easy to see out the side mirrors when you’re driving. Yep. We want ’em super low profile so they’re not dragging a lot of wind. We build it with all aluminum frame construction, so welded frame so you don’t have to worry about like breaking or like dry rot like on the old school wood frame campers from the seventies like brought away. And just really sticking with our approach all these years around durability and utility. Stan (11m 2s): Just lightweight, low profile and super durable. So anywhere you want to go, anything you want to do, Dave (11m 8s): That’s it. And then, so that’s the idea that if you’re off road, you know, on a bad gravel road, whatever for buy-in these things are are, you don’t have to worry about that. Right. That’s something that you can kind of go and they’re gonna, you’re gonna be able to bump down a road. Is that the case? Yeah, Stan (11m 22s): That’s our following all these years. Like not fancy, not a lot of frills and we don’t hire interior decorators to make swirls and fancy fabrics. We just build them to last. Dave (11m 36s): Exactly. That’s awesome. And yeah, we’ve had a couple, here’s a couple of questions I wanna talk more about the the no frills, because I think you do have some of these campers that are pretty nice, you know what I mean? Well we could talk about the Orvis partnership you have going, which is pretty cool. But what about the popup? So, and I wanna get some tips on how to avoid this, but what if somebody is, you know, it’s popped up basically the way it works again for people that don’t know you’ve got this, you know, these six latches around, you undo the latches from the outside and then you go inside and you hit two things, basically push up on the camper and within like, I mean a minute. I mean you could have this thing up and it’s already boom and slide the thing out and you’re sleeping in a few minutes, right? Then putting it down is the same thing. You pull it down, you lock the latches, what happens if you pull it down, you shut it and you forget to lock the latches and while you’re going down the freeway that thing pops up on you. Dave (12m 22s): Obviously something you wanna avoid. But is that a major problem? Stan (12m 25s): No, luckily like the original designer of this thing back in the seventies is just amazing that whatever he did that first time around, he nailed it. And so the engineering behind the lift system and the roof structure and all that stuff, the best case scenario is you do leave all those latches off, you forget all of them. Usually the front pops up 70 miles an hour, you’re driving down the freeway And you know people are waving at you from, from the next lane over, like pointing at your roof and you pull over, you bring it down, you latch it and off you go. There’s like very rarely, I don’t even know if I’ve ever seen any damage from that. Stan (13m 8s): Wow. It’s such a strong design. The only time that I’ve actually seen a problem is if they forget, like if they latch a couple of latches and then they forget the other four and that roof goes up, it’ll usually bend the, the roof latch where the two are still hooked. Dave (13m 26s): Oh Stan (13m 26s): Sure. So all of them are on, or none of them are on, that’s your best case scenario. But overall the roof’s very forgiving for that kind of stuff. Dave (13m 35s): Yeah. And, and that is amazing ’cause if you look at these things when you’re popped up, you know, and we can talk more about the material but you would think like, wow, you’re driving 70 or on the highway that the thing would just blow off. But that says a lot about it, kind of about what you do there. So this is good. So what would be, I mean I guess I would have a tip. What would be your tip for somebody to avoid that? ’cause obviously you wanna lock it down. How do you make sure that you lock it down, what your, you guys have a recommendation there? It’s Stan (13m 59s): Pretty funny because all of us here at the factory that have been around for a while, all of us have forgotten at one time or another. Yeah. I drove from about 15 miles on the freeway, not even thinking about it. I forgot to latch him at night, got up in the morning, had to work and got to work and the front of it lifts up from the wind. It, it kind of just, that front folding panel locks in and it just, it doesn’t move. So the only thing I’ve seen may be helpful for customers and my dad used to do it with his motor home. He’d have a checklist he’d put on his dashboard. So before he leaves, check this, check this, check the lock check where his keys and wears the latches. Like just stick a little clipboard on the steering wheel of your truck before you leave. Dave (14m 43s): That’s it. Yeah, I think that’s an awesome tip. And, and I’ve been just, you know, I just make it a mental note like as soon as you know, when I pop it down inside, it’s like instantly, no matter what, I go outside and lock the latches. That’s just like, do not get distracted. Right. And Stan (14m 57s): Get locked. Yeah. It’s very easy to do. Dave (14m 59s): It is. And it’s simple. So I love the engineering. Maybe we can go back a little bit on the history. Do you know a little about the history of the company? Could you talk about, you know, the originally how it kinda came to be? Who those people were there? Stan (15m 12s): Dave Row, I believe, if I’m saying this right so hopefully I won’t butcher it, but yeah, Dave Rowe and Robbie Rowe. Dave Rowe and his wife started the company in Colorado and in the seventies and in all the stories I’ve heard started out of his garage and built his first one for either like a Ford Bronco or a Chevy Blazer with a removable top. Oh wow. And then like built it for himself to go hunting and fishing in Colorado. And then this might have got morphed over the years, but it was kind of one of those things of, hey dude, that’s awesome. Can you build me one, you know his, one of his friends kind of thing. Stan (15m 54s): And so he built another one for a friend and then built another one for a friend and built another one. Hey can you do one for my truck? You know, and hey I can do that. And it just grew from there to what is now an amazing company. Yeah. The, the design and the engineering and the style hasn’t changed all these years. Dave (16m 15s): It hasn’t. So this is the same. So is it, it’s 1973, right? Is when it was founded? Stan (16m 19s): Yeah, 72 ish. Dave (16m 20s): 72 ish. So yeah, Stan (16m 22s): The, if you put ’em side by side, the campers are totally different now and, and way more modernized and more options, more features, I mean and lots of changes behind the scenes to make them like stronger and more durable. But the overall look has stayed the same, almost like in a different world. But like the Airstream trailers, like they always have that iconic look to ’em. Dave (16m 46s): Yeah, that’s it. They have the same, yeah, when you see it now, and I’ve seen it a lot when I see the four wheel campers around town, you know, instantly, you know, you’re like, okay, yeah that’s four wheel campers. And yeah it’s pretty awesome. Right. And the campers kind of thing. ’cause we have another camper, like a pole behind and, and we’ve had, and the problem with the pole behind is, and ours isn’t even that big, it’s like 20 feet but it’s just so big, you know, like getting it hooked up, driving it around takes you twice as long it seems like everywhere, you know, parking it. And so that’s what was so cool when I got the four wheel camper. ’cause I knew this was gonna make it easier for us to get out and kind of do this stuff. Right. And so I feel like, I feel like that’s one of the biggest things. But you guys not only like ours with the project, I mean we’ve, we haven’t built it out. You know, we’ve got some power in there and stuff, but it’s pretty much open when we go camping. Dave (17m 28s): We just throw our stuff in there And you know, we’re kind of good to go. But there are some other, you know, and the Orvis might be the newest thing you guys have, but there’s some other models that are totally loaded. Can you talk about, maybe talk about Orvis first, that model and how that’s different from maybe some of the other models that, that are out there? Stan (17m 43s): In many ways it’s very similar. It’s based off of our all, all of our normal slide in style campers. But they partnered up and our engineers and their team kind of designed the camper the way they would want one as a guide or a fisherman or a fly fisherman. They said, Hey, if we were gonna build one for ourselves, this is how we do it. And so they took all of that to heart and we, we worked on it for six, six months to a year and got fabrics and interiors and samples and prototypes. And so it’s built around the same style of campers that we do today, but geared towards fishermen and what they would want in there as far as like the wet room and the fly rod holders and just different battery solutions and just kind of a whole different layout. Stan (18m 37s): Yep. Dave (18m 38s): And where could folks listening now, where can they find all that to take a look at some of these models Stan (18m 42s): To see one in person, you’d have to call your local dealer and see if they have one or not. Not all of our dealers stock ’em. We have one at both factory locations, Northern California, Southern California. And then our website is loaded with information and a specific page for that. And then lots of videos. Dave (19m 2s): Yeah, lots of videos. Cool. So maybe some of the, you know, if people are thinking and obviously a pickup, you know, you have to have a pickup or like a flatbed. But you mentioned even the Ford, do you guys still do stuff for that type of, are you doing custom builds if somebody has something like, like you mentioned they started with the Ford Bronco, the popoff? Or is this more standard just for pickups Stan (19m 22s): As we’ve grown over the years, we’ve done 180 degrees the other direction. Like years ago when I started here and, and probably for all the years before that smaller company hungry wanting to grow and we would do just about anything custom it did. Like if we could get a sale, we’re like heck, let’s do it. We’ll lay it out, designed it out and build it. Nowadays we’re so big, everything’s handbuilt, but more automation CNC and cut files and all that stuff. So we have a lot more standardization and I think camper to camper to camper, very consistent quality. Stan (20m 4s): But it kind of restrains us and restricted us from doing custom. Right. Yeah. Every camper’s custom built. So we have four different floor plans and a million different options and colors and fabrics. So you can build it, but it’s almost like buffet style. So if it’s not out there on the menu, then we’re not gonna take it back to the kitchen and do a special mix for you. Dave (20m 28s): Right, exactly. So if you have a pickup, pretty much any pickup pretty much out there, you guys can build it. Yes. Stan (20m 33s): Yeah. 99% of ’em we can do small truck, pick truck, little bed, long bed flatbed. There’s just few weird ones like cyber truck and the right avalanche and some weird shaped truck beds. Dave (20m 47s): Yeah, the Honda Pilot. Stan (20m 48s): Yeah, exactly. But regular pickup trucks, we got it. We, we do ’em all. Dave (20m 54s): Yeah, it’s interesting with the cyber truck because when you see that thing out there, I mean it looks so different. Right. And I think that was part of Elon’s idea, right? How to make it totally different. But yeah, it’s the four wheel camper kinda looks a lot different too because it’s got those hard edges, you know what I mean? It really sticks out. It’s not a rounded, you know, like you mentioned the, that camper that the, the rounded what, what’s the silver one you see the old school camper you mentioned earlier? Oh yeah, Stan (21m 17s): The Airstreams. Yeah, Dave (21m 18s): Yeah. Those are just totally rounded and they look unique. But you guys have this really unique camper, you know, looking as well. But what are some of the say objections people might have to this? They’re thinking about like getting one of these and I think one of that comes to my mind is like, you know, gas mileage. Okay, you put a camper on it. Is that a major draw on your gas mileage? Do you guys get some OB objections from people that you kind of have to talk ’em through? Stan (21m 40s): We’re fortunate because if they have a lot of hesitations or objections up front, they usually will wander the website and then move on to a different product. They usually won’t come in here and kick tires for years if it’s not something they’re interested in at all. People that end up in our showrooms usually know what they want and they, they know what they like and they’re coming in to check ’em out. Versus like an auto dealership on the side of a freeway where just any random people just want to come in and look around by the time they find us, they know pretty well about us or, or they’re learning. Stan (22m 21s): The biggest objection’s probably for some people is cost. Like they can get expensive, but it’s, I think it’s all relative because I even sometimes I do a price quote for a customer, I’m like, holy smack, this is expensive. Yeah, right. Because I’ve been here for so long and I saw the prices back in 2020, you know, 2005. But when I look at other brands of campers or trucks or side-by-sides or boats, everything’s expensive. It is, we still have probably the, the easiest price range of any company out there building truck campers. ’cause we start around 12 five and go up to 60 or 70. Stan (23m 2s): But we have a huge range of, of prices available. Dave (23m 7s): Yeah. And like I say, and I’ve seen that too. I mean our camper, that pull behind we bought whenever that was five, six years ago. I mean I think it’s, if you bought the same one, it’d be twice as much now. Stan (23m 17s): Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately with covid and inflation things shifted a little bit. Dave (23m 23s): Exactly. But like you said, you know, and, and that’s cool. You know, the project demo I think is the model that you can get in for that. You know, kind of that 12 five price range, which is, you know, and again if everything’s expensive So it kinda gets you in the door and, but I’ve been loving it. I’ve been really loving. What, what are some of the other features? Anything we haven’t talked about here that are features, whether it’s the Project M or just four wheel camper that, you know, people are loving, like talk about if they’re in that thing, that’s the, that’s got everything right? It’s got the stove, it’s got the fridge. Is it pretty much like you walk into any type camper and that’s what you’re gonna see in the four wheel camper? It’s kind of a similar deal. Stan (23m 57s): I think it feels different like each brand of camper in each style, whether it’s a, like a wedge style or a pop-up style or a flatbed or a van or whatever people are using out there, each floor plan feels different inside. But all of our campers have the same basic stuff inside sink, stove, fridge, furnace, batteries, propane water beds and all that. It’s just picking your colors and picking your floor plan that that best suits you. Dave (24m 24s): Right, right. It is. Okay. And so, and like you said, it’s got, they all have the large bed up top. And so you mentioned this a little bit earlier on the, the customers who are some of your, you know, kind of ideal customers coming in. It sounds like they, it started out with a real heavy hunting fishing and now it’s, is it a mix of like kind of all sorts of age groups and demographics? Stan (24m 46s): It is, it’s a wide range now because we offer more stuff and there’s more people in the market out doing stuff and wandering around the country. We don’t fit the old, old market like seniors that are just too old to get out and about. I don’t like to say this ’cause we get a, the, a wide variety, but most of our customers are, when they come in the showroom and you talk to ’em for whatever, 20 minutes, half an hour, hour, they’re outdoor people. They’ve been outdoor people their whole lives. Hunting, fishing, biking, hiking, canoeing, kayaking. They’re active, but they’re just getting older. They don’t wanna sleep in a tent anymore. Stan (25m 27s): I’m like, man, I’m just, just turned 50 and I’ve been outdoors my whole life, but my kids are in college or, or they’re kids are outta the house and they’re like, we want to go explore while we still can. We’re active, we’re out there doing it. We want to go see some things and do some stuff, but we don’t wanna backpack anymore. Dave (25m 49s): Right. Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s a And I feel like the, that’s kind of the comfort and I’m kind of in the same way. We still love backpacking and getting out and camping on the ground, but I find as you know, you get older, like a lot of us, you know, the back isn’t quite, doesn’t love sleeping on the ground as much as it used to. It kind of loves the comfort. So we’ve been looking at this ’cause there’s different things to do, right? You guys, when you buy one, you can get to the mattresses, talk about what the pad is up there. And do you guys have other recommendations as far as what you should be using for the, the top, you know, the pad on the bed? Stan (26m 17s): Yeah, so there’s differences in the project M topper, like the topper model that you have. The mattress is optional and we do that so the customer can customize the interior or keep the cost down and do their own, if they order a mattress from us, it’s just like high density foam cover on it, whether it’s a fabric cover or vinyl cover. But I’ve, I’ve always, I’m a bigger guy. I am like six three. Yep. So I’ve always needed and wanted like a couple of inches memory foam. Dave (26m 50s): Yeah, the memory foam. Yeah. Stan (26m 51s): So sleeping on the stock mattress on a cold night. The foam to me is firm. Some people love it. Some people are like, I sleep better in the camper than I do in my house. Yeah. I find it the opposite. I’m always bringing some kind of me, like a little topper from Costco or whatev a add in. So three inches of regular stock foam and two inches of memory foam. And I’m, I’m good. Yeah. Dave (27m 17s): And that’s what I feel like even a bed, you know, if you go by the bed, I think all the, you know, it seems like that’s what we like. I think you don’t want a super soft thing. You want the firm below and then some sort of a soft right. Beverage foam. So that’s kinda what this is. And then the mattresses, so you can kind of get those to customize to your, you know, your interior. What is the, so you have, you have that, are there any other things to be thinking about with the actual, I think the, I think a solar, right? You have solar, like if you have that set up, how challenging is getting solar set up in this to get kind of, have your arrays and all that stuff? Because you wanna have the solar panels typically on top. Stan (27m 50s): Yeah, putting them on top is easiest if you kind of just set it and forget it kind of thing. Just, it’s up there and whenever the sun’s on it, it’s good. You don’t have to think about it. You don’t have to turn it on or off. And then, so we can do like our, our smallest system with some exceptions. Our smallest system is like 250 watts. Unless the camper roof is really, really tiny for like a little five foot bed truck, we do like 160 watts on those. So 250 to 500 watts on some campers for the longer roof. And then we can do a single lithium battery or dual lithium batteries on some models or triple and like some of our flatbed models. Stan (28m 33s): So people nowadays are asking for more and more and more power. They want more battery power and they want more solar power. It’s, that’s the trend. They, there’s a lot of things that come and go over the years, but battery power and solar is like our biggest questions. How much can they get? Dave (28m 51s): Yeah. And is on the heating, is that your typical just kind of propane? Is that what your standard, the, the other models come with kind of propane heating? Stan (28m 60s): Yeah, the toppers are different because they don’t, at the, the moment we don’t have a built-in factory furnace option. So the customers are having to do like a little portable diesel heater or something, Mr. Buddy or something like that. But our regular slide ins all these years, whether it’s a empty shell model or a regular slide in camper or a flatbed, we offer hot water heater and also the forced air furnace. Okay, Dave (29m 28s): So Stan (29m 28s): You’ve set it and go to bed just like your Dave (29m 31s): House. Yeah, exactly. That’s sweet. Are you, as far as people around the country, if you look at the us are you guys spread around? Are you seeing four wheel campers on the east coast, west coast, kinda all over the country? Or do you guys have hot spots for what you guys do Stan (29m 44s): It? Yeah, no, I, I have a, I don’t know stat wise, I’m sure we have like Google stats and all that stuff. But all these years here, working with our dealers and working on the phone with customers by the thousands over the years, we’re all over the world. But our biggest international dealer is in Europe and Germany. And, and that’s relatively small. He might sell like 30 to 50 campers a year. So it’s big for there, but it’s small for us. And then when you come to the states, that’s our bread and butter all over the United States, mostly the, the eastern states and the western states is most of our buyers. Stan (30m 24s): ’cause in the middle of the us, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas Oak, there’s, that’s not a lot of camping going on out there. Oh yeah. So there is less people, less money and different kind of weather. But the west coast, east coast is where the people are and the, the land, like the 10 western states, there’s unlimited places to camp, unlimited amount of people and you can just go anywhere. So the 10 Western states is definitely our bread and butter always has been. Dave (30m 53s): Okay. And on the camping, so there are some western states obviously that have more snow and more kind of crazy weather. But are you finding people also camping or if you even take it to Oregon or some of the west where it’s like rains a lot, you know, and it’s really kind of wet necessary. Are people camping throughout the whole year? Are there any issues with camping, you know, during snow, you know, wet, all that stuff? Stan (31m 15s): No, there’s always stuff you have to deal with, whether you’re in a van or in a camper or in a motor home or whatever it is. We have customers full time in it, year round, all kinds of weather. We have dealers in Canada, in Washington, in Oregon that sell campers hundreds a year at, at each location. So there’s thousands and thousands of campers in, in all the different environments. Pretty easy to deal with. You just need ventilation so you don’t get too much condensation inside. Right? So if you got two people and a dog breathing all night and the whole camper’s closed up and you’re in a real wet area, like scrim Washington in the rainforest and the Pacific Northwest where everything’s just dewy all the time, you just need airflow. Stan (32m 3s): It’s like, yeah, you need airflow, crack the vent, crack a porthole, turn on a fan, turn the furnace up a couple degrees and go to bed. And then when you wake up in the morning, it’s still pretty manageable, all things considered. Gotcha. It’s like anything, you just gotta manage it. Dave (32m 16s): Yeah, yeah. No, and on the windows you have, they’re, they’re kind of cool because it, you know, it pops, well, it’s got multiple windows, you know, but you have the, if you want, you can have windows on the actual hard side of it. So when it’s popped down, you’ve got those windows which you can slide, but then up top there’s four windows that are part of the material and it’s not canvas. Right. What is the material that the popup is made of? Stan (32m 36s): Vinyl. Dave (32m 36s): Yeah, it’s vinyl, right? Stan (32m 37s): It’s, it’s like, I think most people find it like for a reference point, like zodiac boats, those inflatable boats, like the Coast Guard uses in river raft material like river rafts, inflatable kayaks and Ss and stuff like that. It’s super, it’s like waterproof, air proof, rip stop fabric, just super durable. Dave (32m 59s): Just bomber. Yeah. And that’s why it’s so cool because it’s totally waterproof and the way you guys have it set up too, the windows are, you’ve got this basically you can, you know, open up, it’s a mesh, so you’ve got this mesh, so you protect from the bugs and then you close up this plastic clear window, which keeps you sealed from the rain. So you can be looking out, get light in, but then it’s got the full window that closes up, you know, that, that, that material. So it’s totally sealed. And so that’s kind of cool too. But that’s basically what you could do. You could pop a couple of those windows and just get some airflow during the night and that, that’d probably be good enough. Stan (33m 27s): Yeah. Crack the vent or just peel just like an inch of that side window down just so you can have some air going, coming in. It’s like a bathroom. Like you either have a, a window that opens or you have a fan, like you just need airflow. Dave (33m 42s): Yep. That’s all it is. Okay. So there’s a good tip. And then the heater, you mentioned that. What, so if you had, if you didn’t have the build out heater, you say had one of these project S, you said people are bringing in just a little like portable heater. Talk about that a little bit. Stan (33m 53s): That’s a thing like a Mr. Buddy or like this portable propane heater. Oh, Dave (33m 57s): Those are propane, right. So you could bring propane in there and that wouldn’t be an issue. Stan (34m 1s): Scares me. Dave (34m 3s): Yeah. Right. But as far as if you got a vent open, like yeah, the propane’s going on Stan (34m 7s): Out. I’ve used them and I, I still own one and I’ve used one on my boat, but I’m not leaving one of those on all night. No. You know, just like wake up and turn it on, take the chill off. Awesome. Best thing ever. But I guess I’ve been so spoiled because all these years we’ve always had slide ins with a furnace and like we just order the factory furnace with a thermostat and just go to bed. The toppers are a newer thing for us. Dave (34m 36s): Right, right. And it’s kind of cool because there are some pool, and again, I think you guys, part of that is you, you kinda have a, a bigger lineup for people, right? Maybe. So for people that either want a less expensive camper or wanna build out something, because I’ve seen some videos of people that have the project S and they’ve really customized and built these what is essentially a full camper. Do you find that there’s a a, a lot of people doing that where they’re actually, they get these because they wanna design their own inside camper? Stan (35m 1s): Yeah, it’s a mix. It’s a, I don’t know, a third, third, third. Like third of the people leave it empty. Third do just a little bit. And then, I don’t know, even maybe less than a third 10% do a full build inside. But said they’re always doing something and they’re always adding something, whether it’s a lower bed or a storage boxes or battery or whatever. Bare bones doesn’t seem to be, doesn’t seem like it stays like that for very long before they start wanting to add. Dave (35m 33s): It doesn’t, it’s even us because we kind of are bare bones. But I’m starting to think, okay, what’s the next thing? And you guys also have the things, right? Like we didn’t get any of this, but you can add stuff to the outside of it, right? Whether that’s, you know, extra water, gas, talk about that. What are the things people could get on the outside to have, you know, those things. Stan (35m 50s): Yeah, for the topper, the exterior stuff is easy. Like roof racks or tracks only or solar on the roof. And then for the side you can do an awning, a couple different style awnings or the gear track. Gear rails on the outside for attaching hooks or roto packs or max tracks or any of that stuff. Like very utility oriented. Dave (36m 13s): Right. And the roof racks are how much weight, like if you get the roof racks and you have, I mean, talk about that. What can, can you put a bunch of weight up there and still open the topper? Or do you have to kind of take the weight off? Stan (36m 26s): Most people will have to take it off the roof is super solid. Design very strong. It’ll, so in, you know, a weight example, our old brochures way back in the days, like it’s stronger now than it ever was, but back in the like eighties and stuff and all the brochures, the roof is rated for a thousand pounds of snow weight in the up position. Wow. So it’s Oh wow. ’cause Colorado based company for 25 years snow camping. Yeah. Winter, you know, six months out of the year they’re, they have snow out there. So it, it had to withstand all of those kind of environments. Stan (37m 8s): But we always tell people usually like a hundred pounds or less of gear on the roof for their ability to lift it or not. Like that’s the biggest weight restriction is how strong are you to pop that thing up Because it mostly, in most of our models, it’s you, it’s a customer just pushing it up, which is awesome because it so simple, so reliable. No cranks, no cables, no motors, no hydraulics, no motors, none of that stuff to break. God. The roof goes up and down for 40 years and never has any problems. Dave (37m 42s): That’s so true. And it’s just a basically two hydraulics on the front and back. Right? I mean it’s, it’s literally just like a, almost the same. It looks like the hydraulic you’d have in the back of a a, you know, whatever, tailgate of a car, right? Stan (37m 53s): Yeah. And for 40 years we didn’t even have those. We just pushed it up. Dave (37m 57s): Oh you did? Oh so they originally didn’t have hydraulics at all? Stan (37m 60s): None. It was just muscle power. Oh, Dave (38m 2s): Amazing. So Stan (38m 3s): Those things just make it a little easier to go up. Dave (38m 6s): Yeah. And you do have a couple of different poundage, right? Isn’t there, aren’t there two hydraulics you can use? Stan (38m 10s): Yeah, the customers can ask their sales rep to do like 30 pound, 40 pound or 50 pound. The tricky part is finding the, the right amount of pressure. So it helps lift the roof for you but not so strong where the roof won’t come down. Oh Dave (38m 26s): Right. ’cause you have to pull it down, right. Stan (38m 27s): Yeah. You’d have to like hang on it. Yeah. It’s not that bad but it’s that same kind of theory. Dave (38m 32s): Yes. That’s pretty standard. Okay. Yeah, no, this is awesome. Well, anything we’re, we’re leaving out here you wanna touch on with four wheel campers or anything you guys maybe have coming new or, I know you’ve been tweaking some things like the Project M was, I’m not sure when you launched that, but that was kind of a, a different model. Any other things we haven’t talked about today? Stan (38m 49s): Not really. I mean we’re always working on new stuff for the future, so that’s good. We’re not for everybody, but we love people to come check us out and see what we do and see what we build and our history. We’re kind of like, we’ve been around forever. So we’re the company that hopefully is gonna be around another 50 years. We’re not, not a fly by night startup working out of our garage. So we have a huge dealer network. Huge is probably relative. Like we have 10 to 15 really good dealers in the US so warranty support across the country, showrooms across the country, installs all over. Right. But yeah, there’s a lot of choices. Stan (39m 30s): We, we kind of just, a lot of people come to us for our reputation in the history of the company ’cause they such a known product. Dave (39m 39s): Yeah, right. You guys have been out there for so long and, and that’s a big part of it, right? Trust in knowing that you’re gonna get something that you’re not gonna be out there, you know, like, you know, on a road trip across the country and have to worry about something breaking down, you know? Yeah. I feel like, I feel like that is, you know, a some issue with some of those, like probably some of the campers out there, whether it’s a pole behind or whatever that, you know, they’re in the shop a lot, you know, because there’s a lot of stuff that can break on ’em. Yeah. You know, and I feel like what you guys have is, there’s not a heck of a lot that can break on this, especially like what we have. I mean it’s a camper, you know what I mean? Like if I, I can’t imagine what problem we’d have, but it feels like, you know, there’s not too much to worry about. Right. Stan (40m 17s): There’s not, it’s, it’s usually simple stuff like battery management or furnace adjustments and stuff like that. But it’s, it’s usually not a structural thing. Dave (40m 26s): Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well this is again, I mentioned the gas mileage on before and I think one of the cool things is the project MI think only weighs like four low, over 400 pounds. So it’s not like you’ve got this giant thing on there. Right. So I haven’t seen a, you know, I’ve seen a little bit of a decrease in the gas mileage, but it ha really hasn’t been bad. But that’s probably something that, and I know on our other camper that when we pull that behind that, you know, that drops way off just because it’s so big. Yeah. But is that something you guys hear about a little bit? People are, you know, have questions about that or probably the people that are in the model, the market for buying this, they’re probably not as worried about that mileage piece. Stan (40m 59s): No. They, they want it and it’s not that final decision. Like they’re gonna buy it either way, but the better the gas mileage, the happier they are. I think probably a, a solid estimate all these years is two miles of the gallon drop with a, a regular sliding camper. So that little little bit of wind resistance and the extra weight and then maybe if you’re butting a head headwind or something a little, little bit more and a little less if you’re going downwind, but probably two miles to gallons if you were, you were getting 16 now you’re getting 14. Or if you’re getting 14 now you’re getting 12. Dave (41m 34s): Yeah. And, and, and I found that I think, you know, with the project dam, I think it’s not, it’s because probably ’cause it’s lighter, you know, you don’t Yeah. Less Stan (41m 41s): Weight. Dave (41m 41s): Quite that weight. Yeah. Less weight, not as much drop. And, and again, if you think about campers, like I said with the pole behind, I think you’re dropping from 16 down to 10, you know, or something like that. Right. It’s a bigger drop if you’re pulling, obviously the more weight, the more wind resistance up there. But yeah, it’s interesting ’cause we, I was, I have this other podcast I do, which is kind of a like for the family and I interview family members and I just was listening to my aunt. We had her, she was talking about my grandpa was sold campers back in, I think it was the 60 seventies in that range. You know what I mean? And they were talking about how the camper, he was doing great until, you know, whatever that was the mid seventies when that crisis hit. Gas Stan (42m 18s): Embargo. Dave (42m 19s): Gas embargo. Right. And he was like, pretty much he had to move on to a different job. But I don’t feel like you guys have been through that. I don’t feel like that’s because of what we talked about. That’s probably not as big of issue. It feels like you guys have your little niche and you kind of, you’re just out there just kicking away. Stan (42m 32s): Yeah. I think if people are logical and they get outta a calculator and estimate how many times they’re gonna go camping every year in this thing, there’s no benefit and cost of buying one of these things. Like you could just go get a hotel for two weeks a year and you’d come out ahead. But we’ve always kind of joked around is like MPG instead of miles per gallon, it’s memories per gallon. Right. You’re not, you’re not buying this thing to save money or doing this to actually go out there and do some really cool things. Dave (43m 2s): Love it. That’s perfect. That’s actually a great quote. Memories per gallon. I love that. That’s the way, definitely. Cool. So well let’s take it out here with our, our kind of our travel shot. I’m not sure with you, you know, obviously people are traveling, you know, we put 5,000 miles on this thing and I know people are all around the country getting out there. Do you, are you a big camper? Are you traveling around? Is this something that, you know, you’re kind of into still this days? I’m Stan (43m 24s): A, I’m a mix. A lot of our travels these days ’cause we work so much is work trips, camping trips, rallies, events Oh yeah. Expos and all that. So a lot of my nights out every year are work slash fun related. Both my kids are in college, so both my kids grew up around these campers. So we did a lot of that stuff when they were younger. But now I’m in just that, a different phase of my life where I’m working more than I want to, but it’s just right. Dave (43m 56s): Yeah. Stan (43m 56s): It’s just what we do. And then later in life I’ll be able to hopefully be able to like slow that down and, and do some more traveling. But yeah, we still get out there and we’re always playing around with these things. Dave (44m 8s): Definitely. What are the rallies and, and the talk about that. What, because I’ve seen some of these out there is this where, describe what these are, these little events you guys do. So Stan (44m 15s): These are kind of just mini get togethers with our customers. Just kind of a, I don’t know, get out there and have fun. We’ll, we’ll do this last summer we did it in Oregon, but normally it would be like Lake Tahoe area up in the Sierras or Southern California down in the desert in Anza, Borrego. And we would do a, a southern California winter trip for a weekend and have 125 trucks there, like a hundred and 125 campers out in the desert with 175 people. And do just a weekend of camping and hang out and do seminars and, huh. Food and drinks and just get together. Stan (44m 58s): And same thing for NorCal. Just gives all of our customers a chance to come camp with us, meet each other, see all the different modifications, music and drinks and food and God, that’s great. Just get out there and use their camper. Dave (45m 12s): That’s so cool. Where can, do you guys already know, like looking ahead where these rallies are gonna be for the upcoming years, Stan (45m 18s): We had a pretty set schedule and now we’re kind of rotating, we’re mixing it up, trying to go state to state to state just for something new and different. So this next year, I’m not sure where it’s gonna be, but it, it will be in the, the spring of 2025. Dave (45m 33s): Yeah, spring of 20. Okay. So we can check in where, and we could just go to the website if people wanna find out where the rallies are. Is that kinda the best thing to do? Yeah, Stan (45m 41s): Website’s got everything from models, prices, videos, events, page, like the calendar for all of our shows and all that. Dave (45m 50s): Okay, good. I think that sounds great Stan. I think we’ll maybe leave it there. We’re gonna be doing some more good stuff. We’re gonna have our own, you know, kind of rallies I guess as we talk on this podcast about some of the good stuff coming. You know, we’re gonna be obviously out there. We’ve got a cool thing coming up actually in 25 we’re gonna be taking it up to Alaska. Driving the Alaska Highway Nice. And, and doing that with the kids. So I’m really excited about that. Any, any, any, well, one thing I think we’re gonna probably have to add is the, we haven’t talked about is the thermal like up top, right? There’s a way if you’re in some colder weather, you can add the, talk about that real quick before we get outta here. What’s that thermal layer that goes on the top? Stan (46m 26s): Yeah, so like mo in a regular slide in camper, most of the heat loss is in the popup fabric. So the, the roof is insulated and the walls are insulated, but the popup fabric is soft sided fabric. So the, the thermal pack in, in the old days we call the arctic pack, but it’s just a, a second layer of fabric insulated material that goes around the popup soft popup portion of the camper. Just almost like a dual pane window. So it creates an air barrier up there so the heat and the cold won’t go back and forth so quickly. So you can just, it keeps the camper warmer at night. Dave (47m 6s): Right. That’s it. So it just keeps it, yeah, Stan (47m 7s): It just, it velcros in, velcros out so you can leave it in all year round top goes up and down with it in place. Or you can yank it out in the summer if you don’t want it in there. Dave (47m 18s): Perfect. So yeah, I think this is great Stan, I appreciate all your time today. We’re gonna be following up, like I said, we’re gonna be doing some road trips coming up and always and so we’ll have some follow up with you and questions from everybody as we move forward. But yeah, just wanna thank you for all your time today and, and all the great work you’re doing at four Wheel Campers. Thank Stan (47m 35s): You. Yeah, keep it up. I love what you do. Dave (47m 39s): All right, we’re heading out here pretty quick, but just wanna give a shout out here if you get a chance, wanna find out more, just go to four wheel campers.com. That’s FOU are wheel campers.com and check in. You can see all the designs and what they have. Check out the Project M, check out the Orvis camper, check out everything there. You can also shoot me an email anytime, dave@wetlyswing.com and, and I’ll answer any questions you have. We’ve been using this thing a ton and we’d love to fill you in on everything we have going. Alright, before we get outta here, please follow this show if you haven’t already. If you’re on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you are, that’s the best way to get that next episode delivered to your inbox. I wanna also give you a heads up before we get outta here. We are heading out very soon on the Steelhead School. Dave (48m 21s): At least we’re kicking off the big event we have going here. We’re gonna be heading up to Northern Canada to the Steelhead School with Brian Ska, Jeff Liske on that trip. It’s gonna be amazing. If you’re interested in getting more about this, you can enter to win. Next week we’re gonna be giving away one spot for that school, and then later in the year we’re gonna be heading up there to the Skeena Basin to Fish won the Great River. So if you have any questions there, check in with me by email again and I’m gonna let you get outta here. I hope you have a wonderful morning. I hope you’re having a great afternoon, or I hope you have a spectacular evening. If it’s evening, wherever you are in the world, even if you’re traveling right now, maybe you’re in your camper, maybe you’re in your four wheel camper. Listen to this right now. If you are, just wanna give you a big shout out and let you know that. Dave (49m 4s): I hope you have a great day. We’ll talk to you soon.