761 | Tails of the Tides: Fly Fishing for Redfish in South Carolina with Caleb Andrews

Dave (2s): The flood tide is a fantastic time in the low country for one of the most popular species in this country. It’s time when red fish start to show themselves more and you get the opportunity to hunt. Today’s guest is going to walk us through his South Carolina program and the seasons and cycles of red fish. So this year you have a chance to experience that fishing story of a lifetime. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Caleb Andrews tails of the Tides guide and Eagle Scout takes us into South Carolina. Today you’re going to find out how to plan the perfect trip around the tides, what tides to look for the moon cycles. Dave (46s): We’re gonna find out what some of his favorite materials are and how you can get your fly to stand out. We’re also gonna get into a little bit on the hunting, the oyster flats and water clarity, why this is so important in some areas as the seasons change, where you can find these fish and still cite fish for ’em. Plus, we’re gonna talk a little bit about scent and how fish are smelling and how this can affect your hookup percentage. Here we go. Without further ado, Caleb Andrews from tails of the tides.com. How are you doing Caleb? Caleb (1m 15s): Doing well, thanks. Dave (1m 17s): Yeah. What’s going on with you right now? We are getting in close to April. It’s always interesting ’cause you’re down in a part of the world that I always think is, you know, having has a little bit better weather, although it’s today up here, it’s nice. But what’s that looking like for you? When do you start your season? Is it going right now or what do you have going? Caleb (1m 35s): So I would say that I’m in Charleston, South Carolina and I would say that it’s, we’re we’re ultimately a red fishery, I would say by and large. And it’s a year round, year-round fishery. I kind of break it up into you got your warm months fishing And then you got your cold months fishing. We’re kind of transitioning into that warm month period, or warm month time of the year. And so the red fish, the unique thing about Charleston’s fishery and just the, the low country fishing in general is it’s a very tidal fishy. And so we have these five to seven foot tide swings that happen every six and a half hours. Caleb (2m 19s): And so by and large, that’s kind of what you’re, what you’re going about trying to do is you’re fishing a tide swing basically, and that’s how you go about your business. In the warm months, the red fish will push up into the grass on a high tide when the tide gets high enough to flood the grass and the fish will kind of root around and dig for fiddler crabs and their tails poke out of the water. And I would say that that’s kind of the marquee, you know, feature of the fly fish in the low country basically is the idea of these red fish getting up into the grass and you know, their tails poking out. Caleb (3m 3s): And at that point you know exactly where the fish is. And so that’s a behavior that you get in the warmer months. You need a bigger tide for that. The tides obviously are a function of the moon, but that said, you can also have great time fishing for redfish in the winter too, because the water’s a lot cleaner. The fish will school up and so now you’re fishing for these big schools of, you know, 30 to 200 fish. All Dave (3m 32s): Right. Which aren’t tailing as much. Caleb (3m 36s): I wouldn’t say they’re tailing as much. I mean, not to say that you’re not gonna find them tailing, but a lot of times you’re seeing these big schools pushing through the water. I mean, at the end of the day, what I’m telling folks a lot of the time is these fish don’t want to get seen and it’s, they’re really good at not being seen, but sometimes they, they’re so big and they’re so shallow that they can’t help but be Dave (3m 60s): Seen. They can’t help their fish. They’re probably not just like fish, right? They’re not as smart as maybe they could be. What’s their, why are they, what are they hiding from? What’s their big predator out there? Caleb (4m 9s): I think by and large in nature, you got dolphins And then you got birds, obviously, Dave (4m 17s): Right? And they’re used to it as probably a, I think of these pictures of, of you guys holding these giant red fish and you’re like, wow, that thing is, you know, kind of out there top maybe up to the top of the food chain sort of thing. But really they, they’re, they start small, right? So they’re always, they’re hiding and probably they remember a lot about that. Right. Getting, I don’t know, I guess that’s part of their life history, right? Trying to not get eaten. Caleb (4m 37s): Absolutely. Yeah. I think one of the coolest parts about the redfish is it’s one of your older living inshore species, and so they can live 35 plus years in age. Yeah. And what’s cool about that is you can almost parallel it to humans lifecycle. And so when they’re juvenile redfish, when they’re, you know, really before they’re about five years old, it’s just, you know, they’re just trying to make it basically, and then by the time they hit about 35 inches or so, they’ll start migrating offshore in the winters and you can find these big bull red fish, you know, out in the ocean off of wrecks and stuff like that. Caleb (5m 19s): But in the warmer months, I think it’s just a, a, you know, kind of a behavioral thing that’s kind of ingrained into ’em. Sometimes these bigger fish will float in shore and so if you can get, you know, get close to the ocean, you can have opportunities to site fish these, you know, bigger red drum. So. Yeah. Dave (5m 40s): Right. And what are the, typically, when you say warm months versus coal, what, what, what are those months? Caleb (5m 45s): So I think if we, you know, it’s interesting ’cause I think if you look at just nature in general, we’re kind of seeing some seasonal trends kind of shift along. But I would say that sometime between March and April you kind of start hitting the warm months down here and that’s where the water temperature ultimately, ’cause that’s really by and large what’s governing things is the water temperature. And so once I think that water temperature gets into the high sixties, low seventies, that’s when you’re starting to see them turn into, break into their, you know, warm month pattern. And then when it drops below that, they’re starting to get into their, their cold month patterns. Dave (6m 30s): Gotcha. And what are they, and I’m trying to think about what they’re doing. So right now it’s kind of coming up to April, so things are kinda warming up and are they getting, what, what, what changes there? Does that get their feeding behaviors changed? Is that kind of what it is? Or is there more something around spawning as well? Caleb (6m 46s): I think that there could be a, a like smaller spring spawn that you kind of see they, they’re, it’s well known that they spawn around these parts in the fall, but I think that you could see kind of like a smaller spring spawn. But yeah, at the end of the day as it’s warming up, you’re going to start seeing more bait start to show up. And so as the bait starts showing up more, the fish are gonna be, you know, getting more and more active. Additionally, what happens here is in the winter months, the water gets cooler and so less stuff can grow in the water. The water gets a lot cleaner. The fish are schooled up together, you know, as a function of safety in numbers. Caleb (7m 31s): As it starts warming up, you can start, you know, algae grown in the water. And it’s not that it’s unh un you know, bad algae blooms or anything like that, but just, you know, the water’s a lot more of a coffee color at that point. And so the fish will kind of break up and they’re not, not as schooled up as they, they’ll be in the winter. Not to say that you won’t find groups of fish at times, but you know, they can go and roam around and do their thing and Dave (7m 57s): Yeah. That’s awesome. Yeah, so basically it’s, yeah, right now you’re starting to get into more of, it’s warming up, there’s gonna be, it’s gonna start getting some color. When can you catch the tailing fish? When do you think, is there a peak time of that or is there a wide bunch of months there where that’s good? Caleb (8m 12s): There’s a bunch of months that it’s good. By and large, the way you find those tailing fish is you need a flood tide. And so to get a flood tide, the water has to get to a certain height basically to eclipse that grass line. And so what ends up happening is tides, like I said, are by and large are, are a function of the earth’s gravitational pull with the moon. And so on your full moons and your no moons, you have bigger tide swings. And then on your ha on your, you know, your half moons, you got your knee tides, smaller tide swings. And so if you’re trying to plan a trip, look at the calendar and look at the moon. Caleb (8m 53s): And I would say when that, when you’re looking at a 70 or so percent full moon, that’s a decent time to start planning a flood tide around. Or when you’re on a, you know, 30 or so percent, no moon, probably a good time to start looking at a flood tide there. But then you got the, the wind and so the wind is also, you know, ever present in the game. And some directions of the wind are gonna hold water in and some directions of the wind are gonna push water out. And so you kinda look at the tide charts because one of the cool things about the tides is that that’s the most predictable of all our, our weather patterns. So we can, we can look, you know, eight months in advance And we can have an idea of what the tide’s gonna be, right, what the wind’s gonna do. Caleb (9m 41s): Eight months from now, we have no clue. But if we kind of have an idea that this is the water level that we want, at the end of the day, it’s a gamble, but we can gamble with, with more confidence, more information and hopefully we’re getting it right. Dave (9m 58s): That’s perfect. And then, and then, so as things, when they start cooling down, is that kind of more, when does that start? Is that more of a September, october, November, when does it start changing again? Caleb (10m 10s): Yeah, I would say probably right about mid-November at this point is kind of you, you, you get the, you know, I would say fall, probably starting right about September. It’s been interesting being here on the coast just ’cause we’ve been very fortunate to kind of not have any of these severe hurricanes that have kind of hit Florida and other parts of the country. And so that’s a big part of that, you know, that time of the year is hopefully one of those doesn’t come and crush you because if it does then you know, that changes the game for a month or so and you’re just trying to figure out the pattern. Right. But yeah, I would say that by and large, you know, you get a, a push of the Bull Reds in September, October, by November it’s cooled off enough to where you’re really starting to break into, you know, the winter fishery and then you’re kind of winter fishing through early March basically. Caleb (11m 9s): And then things are warming up, Dave (11m 11s): Then they warm up, then changes back. What is the, and what, what home or what town are you in? Caleb (11m 16s): Charleston, South Carolina. Dave (11m 18s): Okay. And what is it, do you think, I mean I’m not sure if you’ve fished in other areas, and I think we’ve talked about a little bit on this, but the distribution, I mean, how is fishing the redfish in South Carolina different from the other parts in the us you know, whether you mentioned a few, Florida, Texas, all those places, or is it pretty similar, like what you learn here? Does it apply in some of those areas and then also in kind of what makes your area unique? Caleb (11m 41s): Yeah, so it’s, I mean, at the end of the day it’s fishing, right? Yeah. And so there’s certainly plenty of parallels that you can draw from one fishery or even, you know, trying to compare one fish to another. But yeah, so I would say at the end of the day, the thing that makes Charleston’s Red fishery more unique than any other is, or, and I say Charleston, but it’s really, yeah, you know, South Carolina, Georgia, not North Carolina. So I, we can even touch on that at some point. Yeah. But really, Dave (12m 12s): Oh you said the low country too. You said the low country, right. And so that’s, And we could talk about that too, how, where is, there must be South Carolina that’s a little bit different than the low country. Caleb (12m 22s): Yeah. So really it happens right about at Charleston. And so if you look at a map, you’ll see Charleston Harbor’s formed from Three Rivers coming together. You got the Wanda River, the Cooper River, and the Ashley River. And then as you go south you’ll see, you know, you got the Stone River and so on and so forth. And so as you keep going south, there’s a lot more inlets that really cut into the coast. But then if you go above Charleston, there’s not near as many inlets. The next one above us is, is the Santee River system. And then above the Santee River system you got Georgetown, and then above Georgetown you got, you know, Merle’s Inlet and all that. Caleb (13m 7s): And so, And then you go up into North Carolina and North Carolina doesn’t have too many rivers really cutting into it. You know, you have have the sound and, and Hatteras and all that, but it, it, the coastline changes significantly as you go north of Charleston versus as you go south of Charleston. Dave (13m 27s): I see, okay. And the temperatures right, the temperatures also change as you go up north. Caleb (13m 32s): Exactly. And, and so there’s some great red fish in, up in North Carolina and even, you know, Chesapeake, Virginia, but the inshore red fishy, I think it’s tougher because those fish just, you know, there’s, there’s only but so many places for those fish to be. And as the, you know, as fishing gets more and more popular, how many people are fishing there, so on and so forth. So yeah. Dave (13m 57s): Right, right. And you’re, and you’re seeing that down there. Are you seeing the popularity increasing more pressure on the fish and all that? Caleb (14m 4s): Absolutely. And I think that’s one of the, one of the cool things, but it’s certainly cool Red fish are very patentable. Dave (14m 11s): Yeah. They’re they’re on the map, right? And and and the everywhere pretty much. Yeah. Any, anywhere you can find them, I’m sure it’s growing. Caleb (14m 17s): And so I think that like, at the end of the day, what I end up telling my clients a lot is what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to be in the right place at the right point in the tide. And when, when we’re in the right place at the right point in the tide, that’s where the fish are, Dave (14m 30s): That’s where they are. What happens when you get a, you know, it’s not a full moon or a new moon, it’s kind of a half moon where they’re may be not getting these giant flood tides. What’s that look like? Are you stable able to get some action and then, or is it just in, are you still seeing some tailing fish and it’s just not as crazy or what’s that look like? Would it be okay if you found this spot that wasn’t the prime high tide? Caleb (14m 52s): Yeah, so I think that, I mean at the end of the day when we’re fly fishing a lot, by and large we’re trying to sight fish ’em just ’cause it’s cool to see the fish and watch ’em meet your fly. Not to say that, like, I think there are times too where if you want to catch more fish that if you start blind casting a bit more that you know, maybe you’re gonna find someone, right? So at the end of the day, the those in, in-between tides, the fish are always gravitating towards structure. So that’s what we’re doing is on any given point in the tide, these fish are moving from one structure to another, be it a grass line or oyster bed or a sandbar or you know, whatever. Caleb (15m 40s): Yep. But they’ve got this pattern that they like to go through where they’re like, we feel comfortable here and then we feel comfortable here and then so on and so forth. And that’s kind of their schedule. And on any given day, the wind’s gonna be blowing in some direction. And so some of the spots that, you know, the fish are there, you can’t get to or you can’t see ’em. And so I think that’s what you’re ending up trying to do on any given tide. The way I’m going about my game is I’m trying to get us the best scene conditions possible So that we can see these fish if they tail, you know, you see the tail and that there he is polarized. Caleb (16m 20s): Sunglasses go a long way to being able to see the fish. You know, underwater oysters are a, are a structure that they really enjoy hanging out on. I think it’s a good source for them to, you know, it’s a good structure for them to be able to eat food and then also, you know, be in a position where they feel like, you know, they’re more comfortable and so they’re not having to worry about getting eaten as much. And the nice thing about oysters is their filter organism. So these oysters will clean the water around them a bit, so you can kind of see these fish sitting on the oysters because the water around this little patch of oysters is clean And then, you know, you shuffle off of it two yards and it’s coffee, so, Dave (17m 9s): Right. Oh wow. That’s cool. So some of these times in the warmer months where it’s coffee, you can find these oyster beds and it, and they’re, it’s clear enough where you could see the fish and they could see your fly And then you could still, I don’t know, are they still, and they’d be tailing, right? Potentially. Caleb (17m 22s): Yeah, yeah. They might tail on the oysters, but there’s one second that his tail was up. Hope you were looking there. But you know, you work around them slow and you look and sometimes they’re sticking out like a sore thumb. 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You can head over to wet fly swing.com/mountain waters right now and make it happen. That’s wet fly swing.com/mountain waters. Let’s get out there today. So is that something where you’re focusing, do you have all these oyster beds mapped? Is it something where you’re, you know, any given day you go, right, we’re heading out to this, that oyster bed again? Caleb (18m 48s): Yeah, yeah. There’s certainly banks that I’m like, they like this bank, like let’s work down this bank. We got good visibility, we can put the sun at our back and you know, let’s see what we see. Dave (18m 59s): That’s sweet. And then when you’re in there and then the flyer, you just tossing the similar flies that you’d toss anywhere else or you have different specific patterns in those, those areas. Caleb (19m 7s): Yeah, so I’m a big fly tire. That’s something that I really enjoy about the whole fly fishing game is I like the act of being able to go out and think I learned something and then go home and try and recreate it on the vice. And, and so by and large I think that I tie a lot of flies based on different sink rates. And don’t get me wrong, I’m trying to get ’em to imitate shrimp or minnows or crabs or whatever. But the more I’m out there, the more I observe these fish and I see them sitting in spots and it’s like, okay, I need a fly that’s going to be an easy fly to cast and I can throw it, you know, 60 feet or whatever. Caleb (19m 56s): But I also want it to land soft and I want it to sink really slow So that they have, you know, have some time to look at it. Or sometimes I want it to, you know, drop to the bottom ’cause they’re looking down or whatever. So I enjoy playing around with that and infinite possibilities. Right. Trying to get the right thing that, you know, never gets turned down or whatever. Dave (20m 22s): Yeah. What is your, what’s a couple of the patterns that you’re using out there typically Caleb (20m 28s): I would probably, my favorite fly is like a, a derivative of the Borsky slider. Okay. Dave (20m 38s): Borsky Caleb (20m 38s): Slider, you know, tie a little rabbit on a borsky slider and, and some bee chain eyes and a weed guard. And I would say that’s probably one of my go-tos. Dave (20m 48s): Yeah, the Bo Bosky side. Okay. Yeah, it’s just kind of a, is that deer hair mostly you’re using? Caleb (20m 54s): Yeah, it’s a deer hair rabbit and flash not too much to it kinda suspends in the water. Dave (21m 1s): Yeah, we heard, we had gunner gunner breer on recently. He was talking more about up north fishing, but he was talking about he loves tying flies to some of the, the really big stuff. And he was saying how he really loves the natural material versus the synthetic because it like, you know, it’s easier to cast. It’s, it’s just overall there’s no question to him. Do, do you find that you like tying the, you know, more of the traditional natural stuff versus that the synthetics? Or do you use both? Caleb (21m 28s): I use both. I think both have their place. I like the natural materials because I think you’re able to get some properties from the natural materials that they’re not able to emulate in synthetics. But then, you know, I also think that the way I’ve looked for bait plenty of times and the way I find it a lot of the time is I see the bait flashing in the water. And so I think that flashes is something that, you know, certainly helps your, helps your fly look a lot more realistic. I think that, you know, if the old timers had as much flash as we did now we would see more flash in some of the old classic patterns. Caleb (22m 14s): Yeah. But I do think that at the end of the day, you know, there’s properties that you get from these natural materials that are cool. And so Dave (22m 24s): What are some of those, do you know much of the, well we haven’t really got into your history, but I know you have a, a really long background in fly fishing, but do you know some of those old traditional patterns? Because I think of my, now I think about old, right? It’s funny, it’s all relatively, you know, as you get older you’re like, well man, those eighties days back in the 1980s that was actually, I guess that is old. Right. That is old now. And there was stuff back then, right? You had, you always had flashabou, you had some of these materials. But is is, have things changed a lot on the flash or are there a lot of things that other than crystal flash that people are using that are good, that are kind of newer materials? Caleb (22m 57s): Oh yeah, yeah. I’d say that that there’s, you know, I mean there’s tons and tons of synthetics now You got all these eps and all that jazz and you know, craft fur, all that stuff. Great materials, plenty of movement in the water. But yeah, again, there’s something to be said about the way a chicken feather moves in the water that, you know, or the way a rabbit strip or you know, mib boom moves in the water. And so I think that there are times that it’s, you know, you can tie these flies that are great because you can put in both old materials and new materials where these new materials, maybe they don’t move quite as good as the old materials do, but they’re a lot more durable. Caleb (23m 43s): And so that’s true. You catch five fish on a, on a bu fly, maybe all that BU’s ripped out at that point and it’s no longer a usable fly, but you tie a little bit of craft fur in with the bu and that flies life just doubled. So yeah, Dave (24m 0s): There you go. That’s it. So that’s a big bonus. And do you find that, so, so that’s one thing. So that are gonna be more durable for the most part. And are they kind of, you know, as those flies get chopped up, are they still working as effectively as the fresh fly out of the box? Caleb (24m 16s): Yeah, I mean I think that there are times that I’ve certainly had buddies argue that some of these, you know, a fly that’s been eaten is a lot more likely to be eaten again. And I, I almost wonder if it’s just because that fly now smells. Dave (24m 31s): Oh right. Yeah Caleb (24m 32s): That’s good’s. Good point. ’cause I think that the way salt water fish find their food first and foremost, maybe it’s all fish, but I think that it’s an element of scent first. Then I think it’s like percussion vibrations in the water. And then lastly I think it’s sight. Yeah. And So that kind of goes into, you know, my fly design, et cetera, et cetera. But I’ve questioned if maybe they prefer the natural materials at times because the natural materials still have just a little bit of, you know, scent to ’em. And so yeah, Dave (25m 11s): They don’t have the plastic smell, the new car smell. Right. They’re actually natural. Yeah. Caleb (25m 15s): The new car smell isn’t near as good as the old dead deer smell. Dave (25m 19s): Yeah. The old dead deer. Right. That’s pretty awesome. And so smell, and you said in sight cell, oh well smell vibration and then sight is kind of the last Caleb (25m 28s): Yeah, that, that’s my thoughts at least. Dave (25m 30s): Yeah, no, that makes sense. I think that probably does apply to a lot of species. ’cause you think about it, you know, there’s lots of times where you’re out there and you said it yourself, I’m sure this happens, you know, the water is not clear, not clear at all, and you’re still hooking into fish and you’re like, wow, how did that fish see the fly? I could barely even see it. You know, you barely, do you find that, like what is, does it get to a point sometimes when it’s too, the turbidity is too high where it’s just, you know, super coffee and you can’t fish at all? Or are you guys out there in all conditions? Caleb (25m 57s): Yeah, I think, I mean ultimately you can always go, I would say that there’s never an instance where I’m like the I, well maybe not never. I, yeah, you’re trying to find clean water at the end of the day. Dave (26m 11s): That’s the key, right? The cleaner the better. Yeah. Caleb (26m 13s): Go try and find the best water you can, but at the end of the day you’re gonna get what you get. And you know, if it’s dark water, a lot of the time I’m gonna throw a dark fly that gives me a profile in the water, you know, that put more flash in it to make it reflect more light. You know, there’s all sorts of different thoughts that you can kind of apply to trying to solve the problem, if you will. Dave (26m 38s): Okay. So I guess going back on it and, and you have, I was looking at I think a little bit of your background that’s, there’s something there talking about like conventional fishing. Do you still incorporate some of that? And I know we haven’t talked much about some of the nonprofit stuff you do, but is the conventional, is that something you’re doing out there, mixing that in? Or, you got me thinking when you mentioned the smell of the fly. Caleb (26m 59s): Yeah, so kind of, I mean the way it went for me is I grew up with fly fishermen and like fly fishing was, was the only, only way I knew. Dave (27m 10s): And this was up north, was this up in Virginia? Caleb (27m 13s): This was in Virginia there did this fly fishing camp with my dad, the brotherhood of the jungle cock. Dave (27m 19s): Oh wow. I think I’ve heard of that before. The brotherhood of the job. Is this a pretty big group that’s out there? Caleb (27m 25s): It’s probably smaller now, but it was the Federation of Fly Fishers at least somewhat affiliated with it. And basically it was a father’s gonna take his son fly fishing for a weekend. And so they did this, there was two chapters, one up in Michigan and one in Maryland. We did the Maryland chapter. Yeah. Dave (27m 50s): Is it still out there? Caleb (27m 51s): I couldn’t tell you. I know it was for a good while. I know when at some point the Federation for Fly Fishers became the international fly fishing whatever. And so yeah, I I, I honestly couldn’t speak to it. Dave (28m 7s): Yeah, there’s still a website. The Brotherhood of the Jungle Cock originated organized in Maryland. 1940. There’s a patch there. Yeah. Caleb (28m 14s): So that’s kind of how it started. Always fly fishing for trout. Ended up going to school at the University of Tennessee. I studied engineering there. By the time I got done with school, I, you know, I had been doing a bit of fishing. I kind of went into engineering with the thought process that I would work my way into the outdoors industry via the engineering background, Dave (28m 44s): Like designing products and stuff like that. Caleb (28m 46s): Yeah, that was kind of my thought. I actually almost got a job with Rio Outta school designing fly line, which would’ve been cool. But one thing led to another and engineering job moved me to South Carolina and then went fly fishing for red fish with a buddy of mine and, and I was like, man, that’s where it’s at. And so, yeah, figured I’d move to Charleston and finding an engineering job there. And then it was slower finding an engineering job on the coast than I expected. And so I was like, you know what? Like we’re here. Maybe we’ll just buy a Dave (29m 19s): Boat. Caleb (29m 20s): Yeah. Well I had already bought a boat at that point. I was fishing around a lot and one thing led to another and what ended up happening for me is a guy that I fly fished a lot with, got hired by a charter company down here, Redfin Charters. And I ended up taking a job with them and then taking a job with them. I ended up basically getting immersed into the bait fishing, charter game bait fishing for redfish. And so in doing that, I’m catching a lot more fishing than I was when I was fly fishing. And so I’m, you know, just taking notes basically the whole time and you can draw parallels between the two. Caleb (30m 6s): And so one thing led to another and, and so yeah, that’s kind of, Dave (30m 10s): Yeah, we’ve heard that and we’ve talked about that quite a bit. The parallels, you know, whether it’s, you know, trout fishing for streamers or steelhead or you named a species. There’s probably any species, you know, there’s conventional fishing and then, and, and some of the people that are the best people out there seem to be the people that have that conventional background or at least know people and talk to ’em. But what do you think is the, the, is there a few things you’ve learned from the conventional that you apply, you know, with the fly for redfish? Caleb (30m 36s): Yeah, for sure. I think that, you know, like we said, the scent thing’s certainly a big part of it. So, Dave (30m 44s): But scent, is there scenting because you hear this is like the extreme, I don’t think some people do this right, but scenting the fly, right? There’s some places where people have scent a fly. Is that something that people do out there or, or what’s that look like? Caleb (30m 56s): I’m sure they do. I mean it’s one of those things where, you know, unspoken and it’s kind, you know, it, Dave (31m 2s): Yeah. It might not even be legal in some place ’cause it’s kind of bait. Right. It is bait really if you’re adding sent to your fly. Caleb (31m 8s): Yeah. I guess. I mean, you know, is it bait when you put sent on an artificial lure and start pitching around? I don’t know. Oh Dave (31m 15s): Right, right, right. Caleb (31m 16s): Yeah. But yeah, I mean at the end of the day, like having done the bait fishing a bit, if there are times that you put a piece of cup mullet on the bottom and it’s out fishing a live mullet that’s sitting right beside it. Mm. And it’s just because they can smell that bloody piece of mullet right there. And yeah, it’s easy like right, just pick the thing up and the rod goes off. And so yeah, I think that, you know, that’s one of the cool things that you can kind of learn from the bait fishing aspect of it is you’re gonna catch more fish more quickly. So the learn you can sharpen your learning curve, catching ’em on the fly rod’s a whole lot cooler and a whole lot more challenging. Caleb (31m 60s): But I don’t know that any anyone ever started fly fishing for fish because they wanted to catch more fish. Right, Dave (32m 8s): That’s true. So if you went out there today or Yeah, any day you’re probably going to have a better chance of catching more fish with conventional tackle Caleb (32m 17s): Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Dave (32m 18s): Because you can get down to the fish better and you could use, can you use bait? Can you use actually live bait for red fish and stuff like or or just any type of bait? Oh Caleb (32m 26s): Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dave (32m 27s): You can. Whatever. Caleb (32m 28s): Yeah. And so I mean, you know, there are times where the question is are do we wanna fly fish or do we want to catch fish? ’cause it’s, you know, it’s gonna be challenging to do both. But I think that’s the fun part about fly fishing at the end of the day is it’s challenging and, and it’s, you know, it’s a team dynamic out there and you know, I’d rather fly fish any day than bait fish. But it’s also, you know, it’s a progression of the game. Right. So yeah, Dave (32m 55s): Definitely. Nice. Okay. I guess getting back to, I’m always thinking, you know, the, the timing, the trip. So if you, if somebody wanted to find more of those tailing fish you’d shoot for the warmer months, you’d shoot for, you know, either the, the full moon or no new moon where you have those bigger flood tides. So you’re in there. What, what is it once you get down, you talked a little bit about the oyster beds I guess, but what does that look like once the fish, you’re down on the water, you find the fish and you’re kind of making that cast. Talk about that moment a little bit. What does that look like for you? Caleb (33m 25s): So the reason why I say the tailing fish is kind of your ideal scenario is because one, it’s easy, you know, when you see ’em it’s pretty easy to see ’em. And two, I think my favorite part of fishing as an angler is the adrenaline dump that you get when you see a fish and you’re hunting that fish. That’s probably my favorite part of the whole game is like the, the adrenaline dump when before it’s even happened. But like you think that it’s gonna happen. And so that’s why I think the tailing fish is so cool because a lot of times you can see ’em from, you know, a hundred yards away and now you got two minutes of trying to get to that fish and he’s so shallow that he can’t really disappear on you hopefully. Caleb (34m 18s): Oh right. But like you’ve got that adrenaline pumping the whole time and that’s what’s cool about it. That’s Dave (34m 24s): Awesome. Right. And then you’re sneaking, are you, and you, if he is a hundred yards out, are you just kind of pulling yourself, how does that look like, what does that look like in the perfect situation where you’re, you have to make some distance on ’em, Caleb (34m 36s): Pull fast and pull quietly. Dave (34m 37s): Yeah. You just get, you get good at it. Caleb (34m 39s): Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I mean it’s one of those things where quieter you are probably the faster you are too. Once they know you’re there, they don’t wanna play the game. Yeah. Dave (34m 50s): Say you’re a hundred yards out, how close are you trying to get? Do you just keep getting, trying to get closer and closer? Or do you say I’m gonna get to 40, 40 feet or 60 feet and be good with it? Caleb (34m 59s): I mean you can get really close to ’em sometimes. Oh you can. Like how close it’s all, it’s all different and I think that that’s part of the fun thing and the guiding is you’re trying to figure out your angler and figure out, you know, what they’re capable of doing. Well and so, you know, if the guy can only throw a 20 foot cast, I guess we gotta get, you know, get to 20 feet. But Right. If you’re a good angler and you can throw 60 feet of line, then we can kind of play the game a little bit more and maybe we are gonna throw a 60 foot shot at it just ’cause it’s more fun. But like we can also kind of take our time and maybe we’re able to get 40 feet from him And we, we got a slam dunk at that point. Caleb (35m 41s): Oh Dave (35m 41s): Yeah. Once you’re 40 feet. Yep. When you make that cast, if he’s tailing, what’s the fly? You talked about a little bit on the weight. What is that fly you’re likely dropping in there? It probably depends a little bit on how well he’s in shallow water. Right? So do you have something that’s got a little bit of weight or, or no weight? Caleb (35m 55s): I like something with just a little bit of weight. I mean you can throw a lot of the times, you can show ’em about anything. I mean half the time with a lot of guys that do it joke around half the time they’ll eat a shoestring if you put it in front of them. So at the end of the day I think what’s happening is they’re up in the grass feeding. That’s why they’re there. And so if you can put something in front of ’em and they don’t know how it got there, they’re like, I guess I’m supposed to eat that thing. Dave (36m 23s): Oh right. Yeah. Even if it’s not food, it just could be anything they’re, they’re curious a little bit. Caleb (36m 27s): Yeah. A grasshopper hops in front of ’em, they’re probably not eating a ton of grasshoppers, but like if it’s there, why not? Dave (36m 34s): Yeah, it’s interesting. Yeah. These aren’t permit, right? That this is the difference. Caleb (36m 38s): Yeah, sometimes they identify as permit, but yeah, by and large they’re red fish and I think that a red fish is going to eat what’s in front of ’em. However, there are the ones that identify as permit and then you’re just scratching your head. Dave (36m 54s): Stonefly nets makes nets with soul, each one handcrafted to stand out and built to last. When you spend time on the water, your gear matters and these are the kinds of nets you can pass down for generations. I know my stonefly net goes with me everywhere and has seen the abuse, but it seems to get better each day. I’m on the water. Every net is shaped from premium hardwoods, balanced by hand and finished to handle a lifetime of use. We all love a big fish story, but it’s the moments around it that stick stonefly helps turn every one of those into something you’ll remember head over to stonefly nets.com right now to see what stories you can create with this beautiful custom landing yet that’s stonefly nets.com. Dave (37m 35s): What is the, you mentioned somebody that maybe ha can’t cast as far, what’s the most common, you get somebody pretty new on the boat. What’s the biggest struggle new anglers have out there? Is casting the biggest one? And then what other struggles do you see? Caleb (37m 49s): Yeah, I would say casting. Casting is always gonna be the biggest one. I mean, certainly tough at times if you’re fishing with, you know, someone that’s a little older, sometimes it’s harder for them to see the fish. I try and bring extra pairs of polarized glasses with me to help folks out. But yeah, I mean I think that’s part of the game as well as a guide is you’re trying to articulate to them, this is how I expect things to go and so this is what I want you to anticipate. And sometimes that message gets received better than others. But you know, that’s part of the cool thing about fishing with guides multiple times is you know, your, your rapport gets better and better and you know, a lot of times you’re catching more fish the more times you fish with a guy than you are, you know, a one off. Caleb (38m 41s): So Dave (38m 41s): Yeah, I see it. And I saw some, a picture of, of your boat out there, but what’s your, the boat, do you have the same boat that you pick up your first boat? Or do you, is this something where you get new boats as you go? Caleb (38m 51s): I actually got the same boat I started with basically, I mean I started with a John boat but I bought a a 1998 Dolphin super skiff back in 2012 I want to say. And I’ve just keep repowering it, repainting it, it’s a solid boat. It does everything pretty well. There’s a lot of great new boats out there, but they’re also expensive. I got mine on a blue collar deal and so it yep, it floats good. It pulls good and you know, it’d be nice if it got a little shallower but yeah, it’s Dave (39m 28s): Got a little bit of a So is that the difference some of the, these other boats that that I guess if you get a boat that goes shallow then it probably loses on some other things. Right. Maybe going in heavier water, stuff like that. Caleb (39m 37s): Yeah, I think at the end of the day, you know, engineering law 1 0 1 is you don’t get something for nothing. Yeah Dave (39m 44s): That’s, we’ve heard that talking about fly rods and I always forget this but you know, you can’t have the fastest, most durable, you know, whatever the third thing right on fly rods you gotta pick. Caleb (39m 53s): Yeah, there. Yeah, you’re always gonna have to sacrifice a little something and maybe it’s cost is the third thing, right. So like yeah, maybe you know, you want the baddest skiff out there, well you’re paying a hundred grand for it, you know? Yeah. Dave (40m 7s): Is that what it’s, so that’s what it’s gonna cost you for that You get the, the best skiff for what you do. It’s gonna be a hundred k Caleb (40m 13s): Probably something like that. I mean I think chidas is how Chidas probably putting out, well not probably is putting out the best boat out there right now, but yeah, it’s also expensive so Dave (40m 25s): That’s interesting ’cause And why do you think, why is that boat the best one? Caleb (40m 30s): I think it’s the combination of everything. I mean the dude’s a legendary boat builder and then they’ve got the best materials going into it and so I would say that’s it at the end of the day. Dave (40m 41s): Yeah. The design is probably has dialed in as it gets it’s per, is it, is it a boat that has a more less V than your boat or is it more of a flatter bottom? Caleb (40m 49s): Yeah, he is. I mean they’ve got all different degrees on him now and, and all that. I mean, Dave (40m 55s): Whatever you want. Caleb (40m 56s): Yeah, they, I mean for the most part. Dave (40m 59s): Yeah, there you go. It’s interesting that as things get more expensive, you know, the, the boat that you know, just look at cars and trucks, I mean how much more they cost. It seems like everything costs a lot more these days. Caleb (41m 9s): Oh exactly. But my boat floats and I don’t mind pulling it right through or over an oyster. So like, oh that’s the nice thing is it’s Dave (41m 18s): Durable. Caleb (41m 19s): Well, less heartbreak too. Dave (41m 21s): Yeah. You, Caleb (41m 23s): You start putting scratches in a hundred thousand dollars boat, it cuts a little deeper than That’s Dave (41m 28s): True. Yeah. Well what are those things on the boat? So what are the, the gi you know, we talked about with fly rods, but what are the, the things, you know, if you had to say that, are there three things you, can you, you know, you can only get one or two of those things or what, what are those things you got? Probably weight. Caleb (41m 40s): Yeah, you got, I think, I mean what we’re all looking for is we’re looking for something that’s gonna, you know, float and spit basically we want it to ride in four foot seas. We want it to be cost efficient and then we want it to be dry. I think another one is quiet, we want it to be quiet. And so like you’ve got all these things that are going into it and at the end of the day, you know, what do you want to sacrifice? I’ve had guys ask me like, why don’t you see more aluminum boats in the Charleston area? Yeah, no, why don’t you, I think it’s, you know, it’s gonna be a louder boat and so, you know, but that’s part of the cool thing about it all is there, you know, plenty of designs that have yet to come about to you know, try and tackle the same old problem. Caleb (42m 30s): So yeah. Dave (42m 30s): Yeah, definitely. No that’s cool. I love, I love, I always love the boat talk, whether it’s talking about skiffs or rafts, you know, you name it. It’s always interesting because there’s, it is that you mentioned, you know, the engineering is interesting ’cause you’ve been through that, you know, I mean Caleb (42m 42s): That’s what do Yeah, I think that’s one of the fun things I’ve enjoyed with my boat is owning it. As long as I have, I kind of go through renditions of trying to make the thing more and more efficient. When I first got it, one of the things I always said, space is a premium on a boat and you’re never gonna get more of that. So like how can you, multipurpose is much of everything in the boat as possible So that you know, you’re bringing it on board because it serves five different purposes, you know, therefore it’s worthy of taking up that space. Dave (43m 17s): Is that how your boat, do you have it compartments through there? It’s all pretty much fully like decked, you know, standing. Caleb (43m 23s): Yeah. So my boat I believe was an old tiller skiff and then it eventually got converted over into a side console and I really enjoy the side console layout because it leads the center of the boat more wide open so you can, you know, oh war stuff and all that. But there’s no real storage on my boat. Dave (43m 48s): Yeah, there’s no storage. You don’t have any compartments below or Caleb (43m 50s): Understanding? I don’t, yeah, I bring dry bags. There’s one hatch and that’s where the gas tank is and I can kind of jam a little bit of other stuff up in there, but most of the spaces, or at least the quote unquote dry space is spoken for and, and so we’re filling up dry bags and stuff, but it’s been cool. Like I built a lean bar system for the boat and that Oh nice. That’s kind of kind of fun ’cause you know, if you’re fishing with someone that’s older you can, they, they now can feel a little bit more stable on the bow and if you’re, if you’re sight fish and I’ve found that the, the higher up you get the better better you can see the better vantage point you have. Caleb (44m 37s): And so, you know, you stand on the cooler sometimes you’re that cooler rocks, but then you can put that lean bar in and feel a lot more stable up there and so Wow. Dave (44m 48s): Yeah, this is awesome. It sounds like you got it pretty dialed in. Well let’s kind of start to take it outta here. We’ve been doing something, you mentioned casting a little bit. We have a casting challenge we’ve been doing where we’re trying to get some tips on casting and we’ve talked a lot about, we’ve had some expert instructors on here and just had Bruce Richards on talking about his, you know, basics, essentials of casting as well. But today this one’s presented by Togiac River Lodge. We’re doing a, we’re doing a trip down there this summer, but also they’re giving away a custom fly rod that Jordan’s dad, Jordan Zach’s dad built. So the challenges we’re getting everybody to take, do some tips that are from our guests. So for you, I think one of the things we hear about with the saltwater, or just in casting in general is that a full action rod can be better for especially a new angler, but there are times when fast action is good, right. Dave (45m 35s): Especially where you’re at. Talk about that a little bit. What would be your casting tip for somebody? They’re coming on, they’re getting ready to fish with you, what are you telling them, you know, to kinda have more success? Caleb (45m 44s): So I think probably the issue most people run into, at least in most instances is they’re not letting the rod load up with the line. Right. And so I think that that’s where a faster action rod will help folks in salt water, fly fishing. ’cause by and large you’re having to contend with that wind too. And so with the wind, you know, the wind’s blowing in some direction, you gotta let that line roll out either in front of you or behind you to load that rod up. And if it’s a, you know, full action rod, it’s gonna just take longer for that to happen. Caleb (46m 27s): Yeah. A faster rod, you know, it’s gonna happen faster. So I think that that that can help folks out but yeah. Dave (46m 37s): Yeah. So that is a big one. What is your, do you have, like rod wise, what’s your typical rod kind of length weight and do you have some brands that you, you like to use? Caleb (46m 46s): I mean your go-to is probably a nine foot eight weight. Yep. And I would say a, you know, a nine foot eight fast action rod. There’s, you know, tons of good ones. Yeah. Dave (46m 57s): Everybody’s got a good, yeah, nine foot eight weight is pretty common, right? Caleb (47m 1s): I started throwing a couple years ago, started throwing a lot more nine weights and I really like the nine weights because they kind of throw more similar to an eight weight but it, you know, it punches through the wind a lot like a 10 weight. So you can kind of, if you’ve got a less skilled caster, I’ll a lot of times give them a nine weight and they can throw it, you know, five, 10 feet further. They then they can throw the eight weight just ’cause it’s loading up a little bit harder. But it’s not quite heavy enough to where like you start getting those bigger rods and bigger reels, it’s getting heavier on the angler and it’s just harder for them to put enough force into that rod to get it to load up anyways. Caleb (47m 47s): So you know, that’s why the nine weight’s kind of one of my more favorite rods for this area. Dave (47m 55s): So the heavier weight gives you a little more, it actually helps kinda load it up even more a little bit and deal with the wind and all that. Caleb (48m 1s): I think so. Okay. Dave (48m 2s): And what about just on generally, so if we had like, you know, a few tips, you know, somebody just redfish in general, you’re gonna leave them with, you know, talk to somebody on the phone here or they’re coming on your boat tomorrow. What are like two or three things you’re telling them? Caleb (48m 16s): I would say ultimately we want to, you know, a good pair of polarized sunglasses and a hat is gonna be, be important for us. And then I think that just kind of getting our clocks coordinated So that we’re looking the same directions when we’re calling shots and stuff goes a long way. Yeah. Dave (48m 37s): So being in tune, how do you get those people in tune with you when you’re, if somebody’s brand new, you haven’t been with them before, you’re going out there and you’re talking about 10 and two and all that stuff, how do you get ready? Because is it something where you might some days only have one good shot at a, a nice fish or are you potentially getting multiple shots or what’s that look like? Caleb (48m 57s): I mean, for me that’s kind of how I evaluate the day is, is how many fish did we see? How many fish did we really get shots at? And then how many fish did we catch? And so somewhere in that is is the equation of a good day. But as far as kind of taking the angler, you know, a new angler, what we’re, I’ll get on the bow. I’m have no problem kind of doing a quick demo on casting to where I think if you’re coming from a freshwater background, I had never done a lot of backhand casting. And so I think a backhand cast certainly goes a long way in the salt water just ’cause we never know how we’re gonna have to have to approach an area based on the wind. Caleb (49m 45s): And so sometimes it’s necessary for our success to have a good backhand. But I know that generally everyone wants to throw an overhand. So like, yeah, that’s what I’m trying to do is I’m trying to get ’em the best shot that I think they can throw. And then, you know, the more shots you can throw, the more options I have and that’s kind of how we’ll go about playing the day. Dave (50m 9s): Do you, on your backhand cast, are you as accurate as you are with your forward cast? Caleb (50m 15s): No. Dave (50m 16s): And that, is that hard to get? How far away are you? ’cause I feel like I’m not either, but there’s sometimes where you make that backhand catch, you’re like, oh man, that was perfect. Caleb (50m 23s): Yeah. And I mean I would say I practice it just as much as the forehand cast and I think that, you know, if I’m a b caster on my forehand, then I’m a B minus on my backhand. Yeah. Pretty close. But yeah, I think that, you know, ultimately I, when I’m talking to new anglers and trying to explain the backhand cast to ’em, I’m like, it’s just the reciprocal of your forehand cast. So, you know, throw a forehand, cast the opposite direction and let it go on the backhand. And now we’ve got a good backhand cast. Yeah. So that seems helpful at times. Yeah, Dave (51m 1s): It’s the same. That’s the cool thing about it, the back cast, the forward forecast, it’s, I mean essentially they’re identical. You’re kind of setting it up. Right. But you should be kind of doing the same thing. Caleb (51m 10s): Yeah. Just casting on a different plane at that point, so, Dave (51m 13s): Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Well I got a couple random ones here And we then we’ll take it outta here. You mentioned the Eagle Scout was, I think, interesting. It sounds like that had a, a, a pretty large influence on you. I remember back in the day it was Cub Scouts for me, so I didn’t quite make it to the Eagle. But what, what was that, take us back there. Was that something that you did for quite a while? Caleb (51m 31s): Yeah, it was, it was just something that I got into and I had had a couple guys that you know were my age And we kind of went through it together and kind of enjoyed the whole aspect of, you know, hiking and camping and all that in, in the outdoors. And yeah, the, I think having done the brotherhood of the jungle cock fly fishing camp, that kind inspired the idea of doing a fly fishing camp for the Eagle Scout project and yeah. So, yeah, Dave (52m 6s): So that’s it. So that was, and how long is that typically? When did you get out of it? Is that kids are typically taking that into high school or when, when would you wrap it up? Caleb (52m 14s): So you, you gotta get Eagle Scout before you turn 18. So I did that when I was my Eagle Scout project I did when I was 17 and I’m 38 now, so, Dave (52m 28s): Yeah. So you did it, so you did it when you were 17. And then what happens after you turn 18? Do people stay in it for like, for a long time? Caleb (52m 36s): No, not really. After that you kinda, if you go into the military, apparently, you know, you can get some credentials for that. Oh, okay. You know, something to accomplish, but yeah. Yeah. Dave (52m 47s): Right, right. It’s, yeah, that’s it. Okay. So basically that’s it after you become an adult, no more Eagle Scouts there. Okay. And Whitten, you mentioned also on the, what was the group you were working with as you know that you, the nonprofit Caleb (53m 1s): Therapeutic adventures. Dave (53m 2s): Yeah. And was that your, what was your project, your Eagle Scout project that you worked on? Caleb (53m 7s): So it was Adaptive Anglers on the Fly, kind of what we called it. And basically teamed up with Therapeutic Adventures who is a nonprofit that takes folks into the outdoors and folks with different handicaps or disabilities into the outdoors and kind of take some skiing or paddle sports and, and fly fishing was the one that kind of, I went after. And so what I had done was for the Eagle Scout project, the project has to get approved by a committee. And so I went to the committee and I told ’em I’m gonna put on a fly fishing camp for folks with different disabilities. Caleb (53m 51s): And they were like, that’s all well and good, but it needs to have a lasting effect. And while this is a great thing, I, we, we don’t know that it’s gonna have an enough lasting effect. And so I’m like, well tell that to the people that are doing it. But what my thought process was, was at that point, what I’ll do is I’ll put on the camp and I’ll write a manual that’s a step by step as to how I went about putting on the camp. And now you’ve got a hard copy of how to do it, so now it’s lasting. And So that, that got approved. And so I wrote a manual about the camp, put on the camp, and then the nonprofit picked it up and basically has been doing it for the past 20 years. Caleb (54m 37s): So. Dave (54m 38s): Right. And so they’re doing that same, that same like manual probably, right. Some form of that. Yeah. They’re still doing. Yep. That’s pretty amazing. And are you still connected with that or is that just, it’s all in its own thing now. Caleb (54m 50s): I certainly stay connected, but it’s self-sustaining. Cool. Dave (54m 53s): Well that’s, I mean, I think, I guess, you know, before we get outta here, anything else we wanna talk about your program, what you have going as far as if people are interested in, you know, checking in with you. Caleb (55m 3s): No, my charter company is called The Tails of the Tides. The reason it’s called Tails of the Tides is I always enjoyed this Thoro quote, which is basically most people fish their entire lives only to realize it wasn’t the fish they’re in pursuit of. Yep. And so I always enjoyed that and I’ve thought to myself, if that’s the case, if most people fish their entire lives only to realize it wasn’t the fish they were in pursuit of Right. Then what were they in pursuit of? And what I’ve come up with is I think we’re in pursuit of a good story, don’t get me wrong, a lot of my best fishing stories, I’ll talk about a fish somewhere in the story. Caleb (55m 48s): However, if you go fishing enough, probably your best fishing stories, you’re probably not talking about Phish as much. And it was, but a moment in time that was just, you know, awesome. Dave (56m 2s): That’s right. And in fact, at the start of this, I was thinking about, you know, kind of, well, how do you catch a, a big red fish? You know, or something like, you know, but I mean, we haven’t even talked about really, I mean, we’ve talked about the fishing, but You know what I mean, that hasn’t even come up because really just getting your story of kind of what you do is always more interesting. Right. You know, than the fish. Well, I mean obviously we’re all here for, for the fish. I’ve had that question come up too a few times with guides where I say, yeah, is it, you know, it seems like it’s kind of half phishing, you know, and half the experience, you know, and sometimes you’ll get a guide, they’ll say, no, I’m, I’m a hundred percent it’s about the fish. But what about for you? Is it is, it sounds like the experience is about half for you. It’s equal. Caleb (56m 41s): I mean, at the end of the day, I really want to catch the fish ’cause I’m competitive. Yeah. And I feel like I’m losing if I don’t, you know, if I don’t catch the fish. But it’s also, there’s so much more to it than that, that if that’s, if that’s always the straw that breaks the camel’s back, then you’re gonna be disappointed. Probably, you know, probably more times than, than you really should. Dave (57m 4s): So yeah, definitely. Definitely. Cool. All right, Caleb, well I think we can leave it there. We’ll send everybody out to tales of the tides.com and, and if they have questions, they can check in with you or also we’re on social. Are you, where’s your best place you’re most active out there? I’m Caleb (57m 17s): On Instagram and that’s Cap C Andrews. Dave (57m 23s): Okay. Awesome man. Well, we’ll send people out there and definitely would love to stay in touch with you eventually. Get down in your neck of the woods. We’d love to get on the water. So yeah, appreciate all your time And we, we’ll definitely be in touch. Caleb (57m 33s): Yeah, be awesome. Thanks Dave. Dave (57m 36s): All right. Call to action today. Check in with Caleb right now. You can go to Tale of the tides.com. You can also check with him on Instagram and let him know you heard this podcast. And if you’re down in that area or if you want to get into Redfish, this is the trip to check out. We’re definitely gonna be hitting up Caleb as we move forward here. And can’t wait for that trip to South Carolina before we forget, don’t forget to subscribe to this show, apple Podcast. You could follow it there. However you get your podcast, whatever app you’re on right now, Spotify, follow the show and you’ll get that next episode delivered to your inbox. We’ve got some good stuff coming. We’ve got a, another not too far from this area in South Carolina. Dave (58m 16s): We’ve got another real Southern podcast episode coming up next week, so you don’t wanna miss that. Chad always brings, brings his good stuff and a great episode. So check out the show there. And, and that’s all I have for you today. I hope you have a great morning, great afternoon, or a fantastic evening, and we’ll see you on the next episode.