765 | New Mexico Fly Fishing with Spencer Seim – The Feather Thief, Rio Grande, Fly Tying

Dave (2s): We recently published a podcast on the Feather Thief Story, A spectacular felony heist by a person who wanted rare and exotic feathers for fly time. The story in the book written by Kirk Wallace Johnson started through a connection to today’s guest. Today’s guest is also a guide and expert on the waters of New Mexico. And today we’re gonna get you dialed into the hatches and the water that make this part of the Southern Rockies so unique. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Spencer Siime Fly fishing guide and classic fly tires are gonna take us back into the world of the Feather Thief, this crazy, amazing story and what his take home message is on the overall book and the story. Dave (53s): We also find out why he loves the dray catch, why Cas should be on your list and on your radar throughout the year, and what else he has going in the fly tying space, including making his own hooks. Plus, we’re gonna find out why anglers are wearing helmets, fish in the Rio Grande, and why you can fish it without touching the water. Heading into Taos. Here he is, Spencer Siime from zia fly.com. How you doing, Spencer? Spencer (1m 24s): Hey, I’m great, Dave. Thank you for having me on. Dave (1m 27s): Yeah, yeah. This is gonna be a fun one today. I’ve been on the track of the, a couple things going. The Feather Thief definitely is that We have an episode that’s out there now with Kirk Wallace Johnson who talked about the Feather Thief. You were a part of that, I think, early on in some of getting Kirk on. We’re also gonna talk about what you do in New Mexico, some of the famous waters you fish and guide and, and kind of all of that. I think we might have a, a big New Mexico episode today. But before we jump into those big topics, why don’t you give us a rundown on your background, kinda what’s your connection to Fly fishing? Have you been doing this a while? Spencer (1m 59s): Yes. So I started Fly fishing at eight years old, was the first time I picked up a fly rod. Now I’m not from a Fly fishing capital at all. I learned my ABCs in Lubbock, Texas, you know, one of the flattest places on earth. They say it’s so flat, you can watch your dog run away for three days, but yeah. But, but we would take vacations into the mountains of Northern New Mexico, and I fell in love with the area from a young age, and I actually didn’t have anyone start me into Fly fishing. It was born out of sheer curiosity, and I saved up money to buy my first fly rod and started fishing on the Cimarron River as a kid. Spencer (2m 45s): And then, you know, I, I kept coming back each summer to do more fishing, and then I started working for Philmont Scout Ranch, the Big Boy Scout ranch in the mountains in New Mexico. And I worked there throughout the nineties. And it was then that I could really explore the rivers in the Southern Rockies on my own time. And it’s been an addiction ever since. I’ve been fly tying since I was 12. Hmm. And my first fly was a wooly booger. Yep. So many of us started with, and I’m still tying flies to this day. And, and I am fortunate to be able to call myself a Fly fishing guide here in Taos area for the last 23 years. Dave (3m 28s): Amazing. So, yeah, you’re in Taos, one of the, probably the most famous, probably the cities, you know, at least for this, you know, outdoors and Fly fishing that, you know, we’ve done some episodes around that area and the rivers, and we’re gonna talk about that today. I think it’s gonna be cool to hear your background from somebody who’s been there for so long and give people kind of a guide like we were saying to New Mexico. But I maybe wanna, you know, start this off with the Feather Thief because I feel like it’s such a interesting, crazy story. You know, and I feel like, you know, Kirk, we said we’ll have a link in the show notes to the episode we did with him, and there’s obviously a book that he wrote, but the story of this kid essentially who goes and breaks in this, this heist of the century, right. To break into steal these exotic birds and millions of dollars of all damage. Dave (4m 10s): And, you know, Darwin and just this amazing story. But it kind of comes back to you a little bit, I think from the start, at least we’re Kirk connected. Why, why don’t you tell us that story? How do you connect with Kirk first and get him on this little lead that he, that he this journey? Spencer (4m 24s): Sure. Well, and it was out of pure luck that I met Kirk. I actually guided him. He had booked a full day guided Fly fishing trip on the Red River with me in the year 2010. And we hit it off right away. He told me that he was hanging out in Taos. He had been done with U-S-A-I-D and working in Iraq. And he was here in Taos writing for the Zer Foundation. And he was writing books about wartime and things. And he really was trying to focus on something that wasn’t such an intense topic. Spencer (5m 6s): And so we got right into the fishing. And while we were on the river, I had a couple of, I’d been tying classic salmon flies for a couple of years before I met Kirk and a jock Scott Salmon fly, fell out of my fly box when I went to change flies. And it caught his attention immediately. I was kind of, I was like, oh, darn, I didn’t mean to drop that. And he picks it up and he just starts studying it. And he starts asking me these questions about, you know, why do you have this fly in your box? Which was the first question. And I’ve been, I’ve had a theory that, you know, since brown trout are related to Atlantic salmon, then they would respond really well to a Atlantic salmon fly. Spencer (5m 51s): And I, my intent was to swing it across the Rio Grande and see if I could hook a big fish on it. It, and I hadn’t yet. So and so, he wanted to know about the community of tying these things. And, and also the biggest question was, where are you getting the feathers to tie such a beautiful fly? ’cause I kind of went over in the fly of what each fiber was, what bird it came from. And at that point, I was pretty heavily involved in the classic salmon fly time community. And I had no, I had known about this museum heist that had happened, and several of us tires were talking about it. Spencer (6m 34s): And a lot of these museum specimens were showing up on this forum for sale. And so when I told Kirk that, you know, I heard this, this kid had broken into the Natural History Museum to steal feathers or steal birds for fly, fly tying for these flies. I think it really took Kirk back. And I had no idea how far he was going to go with this. Right. And God, so that night we ended up having a beer together and he’s writing notes on a napkin, and he said, I’m gonna write a book about this. And so he and I were inseparable for, for the months that followed. Spencer (7m 18s): And then it took about seven years, I think, to write the book Hmm. For him to complete it. But I was giving him, you know, names of people to interview and, you know, he actually, he found out more than I even knew about the heist that had happened, about the break in and, and, and stuff. So it was really interesting to help him put that story together. And, you know, it turned out being stranger than fiction. Right. You know, you get into the book and you’re thinking, oh my gosh. Like, there’s so many layers to this story. And of course, me being a classic salmon fly tire as well, and also being part of this community, I’m still tying classics to this day. Spencer (8m 1s): Hmm. But it certainly has changed my perspective on where are we sourcing our materials from to keep tying these flies. And it really should be about good tying rather than what’s the, what’s the most rare bird I can strap onto a hook? Dave (8m 17s): Right. Right. Yeah. That, because I think that’s one of the, the messages in the book that you get, you realize like, I mean, there’s a few of ’em, like one thing is a lot of these guys that I guess tie these classic flies don’t also fly fish. And that’s part of the, I think part of the strange thing about it, right. Because I said in the episode when I was talking to Kirk, I was like, Hey, conservation is a huge part of everything we do. You know? And, and I think a lot of fly anglers, ’cause they realize if you don’t protect their species, you’re not gonna have anything to fish for. And it’s the right thing to do, but Right, right, right. But it feels like a lot of these guys in this classic form, you know, or not the forum, but just in the classic world, really want the feathers regardless of the impacts to, you know, endangered species or birds of paradise. Right. They just feel like, and, and again, I don’t wanna stereotype, but I, but I feel like, you know, there’s, that, that’s a message that came out in the book. Dave (9m 2s): Do you see that message? Yeah. And did you see that in the forums? Spencer (9m 5s): Yeah. What that caused, what that book caused is kind of a split within the community. And I’m still very close friends with a lot of members of the, of the classic world. Definitely the heist being so notorious. It, you definitely, we still have a lot of people in the community who refuse to use substitutes. They still feel like they need to use the exact call for species for a certain fly pattern, which, you know, I’m a little bit, I really do follow the historical accuracy. However, even the old books recommend substitutes. Spencer (9m 45s): And so you can be historically accurate and sustainably tying these at the same time. But it did wake up a lot of people in the community once we realized, you know, hey, one of our own has just committed a felony heist. And it really, a lot of people started to wake up and start asking questions of, Hey, where are these? Where did this bird of paradise feather come from? You know, did it come from vintage taxidermy or an old fly tying kit? Or is this something that came right off of a museum specimen? And that’s a big thing to me that it’s getting people to ask the right questions. Spencer (10m 26s): And I’ve been really surprised. I, you know, on the salmon fly forms, which are now on Facebook, I’m seeing a lot more flies come up that are tied unbelievably well and don’t contain a lot of the big no-no birds that could be questionable. Now, since this has also happened, there has been an obsession with some of the tires of just getting into the rarities. And, you know, there have been more heists that have taken place since the Feather Thief was written. As a matter of fact, right when the book came out, they were having a party at the Los Angeles Natural History Museum, and someone had broken into the case the night before and stole a relent kaz all, which was very ironic that something had disappeared from that museum the night before the book dropped party happened. Spencer (11m 22s): Oh, right. So, I mean, but, and I don’t know if that was connected to the salmon world or not. There are a lot of other people who want these rare birds for other reasons. It’s not just fly tires. But there’s certainly, you know, there still are some trading that’s still going on and stuff. But it’s interesting to me. Yeah. Dave (11m 41s): Yeah. And I, I think the other big part of this, I think why it’s important, I think Kirk kind of talks about this and did a lot of research on it, was the connection to just the birds and Darwin and that history there of how important these birds are. You know, it’s just, it’s not just like losing a few kind of, you know, endangered species or whatever. It’s like we might’ve lost something that could help, you know, human history. Right. Evolu, we can understand more about these animals. Right. That’s kind of, that feels to me like one of the biggest losses on this. Right. And that’s why I think he was really trying to get people like, where are those missing Right. Hundred skins or whatever. Right. Which I think they’re still out there. Spencer (12m 16s): That’s it. It’s through these species that we found out that DDT was harmful. We can find out how their diets have changed over a hundred years because we have these specimens, which are a timestamp of the day they were collected and that location. And when these things were collected, largely, a lot of them in the 18 hundreds and the early 19 hundreds, the collectors didn’t know about DNA at the time. They didn’t understand DNA yet. We didn’t know anything. And these specimens could still hold secrets that we still don’t know about, that we’re still learning. One of the big things is the evolution of color and what colors exist in nature. Spencer (12m 59s): It was through these bird specimens that we found out that the color blue is actually a very rare color in nature through the, the blue chatter specimens. And it was amazing because of, you know, just through the fly tying and then through working with Kirk on the book, it was really interesting to me because the stuff we were finding out about how these museums operate, and it is just amazing to me the knowledge I’ve gained Yeah. About how the science that we’re, that we have on this, the, the studies that the knowledge belongs to all of us really. And it wasn’t up to one fly tire to, as someone quoted, liberate these birds from these dark drawers. Dave (13m 45s): Right, right. You know? Yeah. That was the, that’s what made the, that was kind of the argument on the other side. I think that who was the, the Heister drawing? Spencer (13m 53s): Edwin. Dave (13m 53s): Yeah, Edwin. Edwin. That was part of his argument was like, Hey, these birds are just kind of being sitting there in this dark drawer and they’re kind of wasted, you know? Oh, Spencer (13m 60s): Yeah. And I, I think he was even making up his own scientific facts in those early interviews of, he said that you can’t collect DNA off of something that’s over a hundred years old. Which that was completely made up on the spot. Dave (14m 13s): Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That’s why the story was so crazy. Right. It’s just such a ed and it all comes back to this Edwin character who is this kid who was, you know, the phenomenal that, you know, I think people even coined him and I think was one of the magazines The Greatest Fly Tire, the Next Generation. Right. The most, you know, magnificent fly tire. And he turns out to be a pretty smart kid that did some things that I don’t know, you know what I mean? You look back. But he, he essentially got away with it, which is kind of inter, I kind of got away with, he didn’t even see any jail time. Right. Which was kind of an interesting part of the story. Right. A little turn of the story. Spencer (14m 47s): And to your listeners, they’ll have to read the book as to, to find out why he didn’t go to jail. Dave (14m 52s): Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. We don’t, we we, yeah. We don’t wanna give away the whole thing. We’ve already given away talking to Kirk most of the story and, you know, in the Oh, nice. In the first episode. So I was kind of going with the assumption that many people had had seen it, but I’m so interested in it, I just wanted to hear the backstory of it. And Kirk did a good job about that, but, well, where do you leave it? I mean, I want to get into more of our fishing side of this episode, but Sure. When people, I’m sure you probably occasionally hear of, of this since you were connected to the book, where do you leave people? Like they’re, they want to, I don’t know, do more help, I don’t know, learn more. Do you do, is there anything people can do now, or, or maybe to learn more about the story? Do you think it’s like, it’s good enough just to read the book and kind of end it there? Spencer (15m 29s): Yeah. Well, so the story, this is, I’m gonna bring Kirk back into this, and I know he’s not on the call, but the key takeaway that I wish, or that I really want people to take away from this book and the whole story is the fact that we need to be asking questions about where did our materials come from? You know, where did this come from? And I remember in the weeks right before the book dropped, Kirk and I were having a heated discussion over the phone, and I had just come back from California from his wedding and all of that. And he was saying, you know, Spencer, you’re still tying these flies. Spencer (16m 11s): Are you asking where are these feathers coming from? In which now, of course I have been. But it was very interesting to me because I had told Kirk, I said, listen, I saw the size of that diamond that you slid on your wife’s finger. Did you, you know, where did the diamond come from? And so, you know, it’s interesting, it’s convenient for us as humans to, you know, just basically be ignorant as to where things come from as long as we bought it legally, because everything has a source. And we need to start walking with a little bit more consciousness about where are our materials coming from. Spencer (16m 50s): And it’s been exciting to me because I’ve been actually getting into dyeing feathers, teaching my children how to dye feathers. And I’ll take a Turkey feather and, and I’ll silkscreen it to give it bars. And then I’ll gradient dip diet in different colors to make it look just like a bench in cockatoo tail feather. And so we’re getting a lot more creative as far as coming up with the right look for these flies. I don’t think classic salmon fly tying needs to go away. I think it needs to keep going forward. 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You got me thinking when you’re talking about dying. We had an episode with Dave McNeese. I’m not sure if you know about him, but Oh yeah. You know Dave. Spencer (18m 31s): Oh, he’s my hero. Dave (18m 32s): Oh, there you go. Well, well, we had him on way back, and I’m, he’s probably due for another episode 1 55, but he talked about the story, I’ll have to re-listen to that one. But he talked about the story with, I think it was like eight federal black cars driving up to his house to confiscate all of his flight time materials. Spencer (18m 47s): Oh Dave (18m 47s): My gosh. So it was a similar thing, right? This happened back in the day. I can’t remember the exact dates, but they took everything Right. Because he was, I can’t remember exactly what he was doing, but he was doing something in the, I think he was selling, and you know, you know feathers, but Right. Totally different than what we’re talking about because you know, obviously, but yeah, it’s interesting. Right. So there is a history here. This is not a new, and actually you go back to the, the Birds of paradise. I mean, think about Right, which Kirk talked about the hats. Right, right. Back in the day when the women wanted these beautiful hats. So they were just killing birds left and right to get the Spencer (19m 16s): Right. Yeah. Well, and you remember back in the early two thousands when women were starting to put saddle hackle feathers in their hair. Oh Dave (19m 25s): Yeah. Spencer (19m 25s): That’s right. And so these ladies were going into fly shops and totally just cleaning out Dave (19m 31s): This, I Spencer (19m 32s): Remember that, Whiting Farms and things like that for fashion, which in the 18 hundreds it was the men going into the plum maiers into the hat stores to get feathers for fly tying. It’s been very interesting to see how fashion and function go back and forth. Dave (19m 50s): It’s amazing. Yeah. It’s such a crazy story. Well, like we said, we’ll put links out to the episode, the Feather Thief episode, and we’ll put a link to the book as well, because it’s definitely worth a read. But let’s jump into a little bit on what you do. ’cause you’re not only the, you know, the person that got Kirk interested into this, but you also guide out there. So maybe take us there a little bit. What is, you know, maybe we talk about your home waters or where you’re guiding now and what that looks like. Spencer (20m 14s): Sure. Well I’m, I’m based in Taos, New Mexico, which we are the northern part of New Mexico. I’m about 40 miles south of the Colorado border. The Rio Grande is our local watershed. And I like to, basically, I’m introducing people to the Rio Grande itself, as well as the tributaries through fishing. Of course, I guide Southern Colorado, which you know, is just a short jump away. And of course northern New Mexico. And the cool thing about Taos is that I can drive an hour and a half in any direction, and there’s lots of, of creek and rivers to fish. Spencer (21m 1s): It’s just amazing here between tail waters and spring Fed creeks. We have a whole lot to offer here. And Taos has a very rich culture. We’re very unique place. It doesn’t feel like you’re in the United States here, the architecture, the people, it’s just fascinating place to be. I do guide the Cornejo River, which is the largest tributary to the Rio Grande. And the eus has a reputation for being feast or famine. It’s a tough nut to crack to be successful on that river. And I’ve actually put a lot of my time and energy into learning that river. Spencer (21m 41s): And I’m always learning, but connecting people to fish on that river. And then of course, the Rio Grande itself sits in the bottom of this 900 foot deep gorge that’s just a giant crack in the earth. So it takes some work to get there. But once you’re there on the river, the fishing is very unique around here. They say it’s unique because, unique up on ’em, but Yeah. Yeah. But you know, we have, we have a lot of wild browns. Our native fish here is the Rio Grande Cutthroat, which is coming back beautifully in a few of our streams around here. Spencer (22m 25s): We’ve had cutthroat restoration projects happening. The Rio Grande itself, we also, on the lower part of the river, there’s a lot of small mouth bath. We of course have carp, we have pike, we have all kinds of things in that river. Yeah. It’s an adventure getting in the gorge. And then after a day of fishing, trying to get yourself out of the gorge is fun. And then the other thing that’s also exciting here is the human history of this area goes back thousands of years. So, you know, you can be hiking out of the gorge, look on the side of a basalt boulder. And there’s petroglyphs right there that, I mean, you know, and who knows how long that was done, 1500 years ago, maybe the anasazis, you know, and and stuff. Spencer (23m 12s): And then I’ve seen on a lot of rocks where someone had, you know, carved a turtle or an elk on the side of a rock, you would see that someone else came by and carved a giant cross over that. And what that was is the Spanish conquistadores who came through the carving, crosses over all of what they thought were pagan symbols. And so it’s just fascinating. The fish lead us down this road of learning about culture, you know, architecture, geology, all of it. And it all comes together here in Taos. Dave (23m 49s): Yeah, it does. Wow. That’s really cool. So, and, and New Mexico, when you look at it, it’s got a few hubs. I mean, Taos is one you hear a lot about. You know, you’ve also got kind of outta Albuquerque in that, down that direction. I mean, what do you think are the kind of the top, I mean, you mentioned the Rio Grande. What do you think are the, say the top five six streams that people are coming to New Mexico that are kind of coming to fish? Spencer (24m 11s): Yeah. The Costilla Creek is one, which is the home to the Rio Grande Cutthroat. Anyone that’s wanted to go after that, that’s a great place for it. The Rio Grande is, is also on that list. And the s being it is just over the border into Colorado. But we still consider it our area. The Cimarron River. Oh yeah. Which is my home waters where I learned how to fly fish. That’s a tail water goes right through a, a state park there. There’s also the Rio Chaa, which is another Rio Grande tributary that’s to the west of Taos. Spencer (24m 51s): And the Los Pinos is another river that winds in and out of the Colorado, New Mexico border. That was a very well kept secret up until about 10 years ago. The secret got out and there’s more people on that river. Those are the main highlighted streams here. Dave (25m 11s): Yeah. And that’s kind of when you’d say maybe that Taos area, like how far does that extend? Because there’s other areas around New Mexico right. That people would probably know about too. Spencer (25m 21s): Right. So, you know, when people think of Fly fishing New Mexico, the first river that comes to mind is the San Juan. Yeah. The San Juan. Right. You know, the San Juan’s a three hour drive from here. And I’ve got, I don’t know, great stretches of the trauma, which I would have to be passing by to get to the San Juan. So the Taos area, I would say is gonna cover, you know, about an hour and a half north, south, east, or west from here, is all accessible from someone who’s staying here in Taos for day trips to check out different places to fish. Dave (25m 58s): Yep. Gotcha. So yeah, there’s plenty up in that area. I mean, I think of, I mean, if we were coming in, you know, it’s, I mean, this episode, I always kind of go back to that when these are, you know, it’s April, you know, may, June. When does the season start for you? Are you fishing year round out there? How does that look? Spencer (26m 14s): We, there is real, there is year round fishing here. The Rio Grande is fishable year round. It never completely ices over. Even in the colder winters, there are a lot of warm springs that feed into the Rio Grande, keeping the water temperatures just perfect for fishing in the winter. And then there’s also the Red River, which is fishing year round. Now, I would say, you know, the winter fishing here is a little bit more for your diehards. And if you’re fishing in the gorge in the winter, you’re probably gonna have about an hour and a half of the sun being on the water. Mm. Right. Because our gorge runs north south, you know, This year we are, we have a very low snow pack year. Spencer (27m 0s): Right now we’re actually really well below normal snowpack. So normally I would say in early May runoff starts and really stay thumping till about mid-June. And then we’re fishing all the way into late October on most of the streams here. But this year I think we’re gonna be fishing, you know, we’re fishing great. Right now the cat hatch on the Rio Grande is something that’s just incredible right now. And you know, I think we’re gonna be fishing probably up until late July, early August, unless we get a monsoon. Spencer (27m 44s): ’cause water temps could be our issue this year. Oh, right. You know, but yeah, it’s, you know, Taos is wonderful because if you’ve got runoff when you’re here, you know, next year maybe if we got the snow pack, if we do have the runoff, there’s always the simmer on and the Costilla Creek, which are both tailwaters to go to. So, you know, there’s always something that’s fishing, well, 12 months a year. Dave (28m 9s): Gotcha. So right now, as you’re saying, April, the cas are on right now? Spencer (28m 13s): It is on right now. Yeah, it is. Dave (28m 16s): What’s that look like for the cas? That’s always a, a fun one to look into. What, what do you guys, how are you fishing that hatch? Is that something that you’re hitting in the evening or what does that look like? Spencer (28m 24s): Yeah, it’s, you know, they’re, the cadis hatches are going to start off. We do have a late morning hatch that takes off. And then the evenings is when it starts to get really thick. Anytime after four 30 going all the way to like seven. You’ve got bugs in your glasses. I mean, they are all over the surface film. And it is, it is on. And you can, every fish is looking up Right now. It is because our water is actually clear enough to where the fish actually see the hatch. Some years we have the bugs, but the water’s too high and muddy and the fish Dave (29m 0s): Don’t see it. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah, that’s right. Because this time of year you would typically have, when is the typical runoff, we’ve heard that’s been changing, like a, typically you might have a, a June like high water time, but it’s maybe a little earlier now. What, what’s that look like for you guys? Right. Spencer (29m 14s): So this year, any bit of runoff, I mean, I’ve heard that the Rio Grande is already peaked and right now it’s April 14th. Yeah. Being a low water year. But yeah, it’s, it, it has been happening, you know, our springs have been getting warmer faster and so therefore it’s gonna start bringing the runoff down earlier every year is what we’ve seen. It’s been really interesting. But generally, you know, when, when people are calling me wanting to come out to fish and they wanna be pretty much guaranteed that we’re in optimal time, I always let the people know that, you know, the best fishing starts around Father’s Day. Spencer (29m 58s): That’s when I can say that every river in our area is fishing well Dave (30m 2s): Really. So Father’s Day is a good time. Okay. Spencer (30m 4s): Amazing time. Amazing Dave (30m 5s): Time. Well, and before we get into that time on the Cadis, give us a couple, what does that look like? How are you fishing the cadis hatch? Are you using dries mostly? What, what’s that look like? Spencer (30m 16s): I’m using, I, I start off a lot of times with double dries. If I’m fishing, the lower stretches that have bigger water features, larger eddies, not a lot of variants in currents, I can go double dry, combine that with a couple of different cas patterns. Our cadi around here are gonna be fished roughly about the size 16 Pan elk care cadi. Yep. And of course, with there being so many bugs on the water, you’re having to compete with the natural bugs. You need yours to look better. And so I like to fish double dry. I don’t like to fish ’em in tandem. Spencer (30m 57s): You know, I don’t do the tying to the bend of the hook. Oh, right. And all that. ’cause I don’t get a good drift. I like to fish two different patterns that are tied on separate tag ends of the leader of the tip of there. And yeah. But I try two different variants and then when I figure out what they’re keying in on, then I’m gonna switch to one fly. I very seldom would run a dropper off of a cadi fly while we have a hatch on. Mm Dave (31m 26s): Gotcha. So what does that setup look like when you have the two flies on? How are you doing that? You have a main fly and then you have, what, what’s your dropper look like? Spencer (31m 33s): So if I’m fishing, two flies, if I’m doing two dries, I’m gonna run a nine foot, four x liter. We can get away with four x on the Rio Grande ’cause there’s enough color to the water. And then, but up about 10 inches up into the tip of that liter, I’m gonna tie on about 16 inches of Tippi material, a four X Tippi material. So I have two ends of my liter that I can tie a different bug on. And now if I’m, if I do run dry dropper, if I’m starting to see that maybe I need to get something down there into the fish a little bit lower, I will run a, a pupa off of it and just do dry dropper that way. Spencer (32m 21s): And yeah. That’s trying to cover my bases. Yeah. Dave (32m 25s): Yeah. That’s it. Catastrophe and the pupa. What would be a, a pattern that, there’s a lot of different patterns, but essentially you’re just imitating the, the, the bug as it’s kind of getting ready to hatch. Is that kind of what you’re doing or coming up? Spencer (32m 36s): Yeah, yeah, exactly. I’m, I’m, I like to, and, and even with the pupa, I do change different colors of greens. Sometimes I’ll use a little bit more of a bright lime green. And there are times that I go a little bit more Kelly Green even. And with that, it depends on the day entirely and how the sun is showing down on the fly. That can really help us determine what’s the perfect color that day. It never hurts to actually have several really bright green flies in your box and then carry some prisma color markers and shade ’em in a little bit as you go until you get locked in on that right color. Spencer (33m 17s): You know, a lot of us fly tires know that naturally when a fly gets into the water and gets wet, the color will change. Typically it’s gonna go darker most of the time. So that’s always something to keep in mind. But when I’m tying my ca flies ca patterns, I do tend to air on the brighter side first. Dave (33m 37s): Yeah, that’s a good tip. Right. ’cause it’s gonna be a little bit dark and once it hits the water. And what is the pupa, what, what is that pattern? What would be one that you would be tying? What would that look like? Spencer (33m 46s): So there is the, the, oh, I’m trying to remember the originator of the fly. It was the pupa. Oh, Dave (33m 53s): The pupa, okay. Spencer (33m 54s): Right. Yeah. And just a little tiny bit of chail. Dave (33m 58s): Oh yeah, yeah. The pupa. Right. Spencer (33m 60s): And I really, really like that fly. It really works well here. And then there’s also another fly that was developed years ago by Gary LaFontaine. Yep. And it’s a, it’s basically, it’s not a freeform body on the fly or on the hook. It’s tied directly onto the hook, but it’s a, what I’ll do is actually dub really bright green, dubbing, very sparsely up the sink of that hook and then add a little bit of some brown ostrich URL on the very front right behind the eye or right behind the bead if I’m using a bead head. And what that ostrich URL does is it gives motions of legs just a little bit. Spencer (34m 45s): And sometimes a little bit of motion can really trigger some of those picky fish, especially the fish that are looking at a whole lot of naturals. You want yours to look way better, you know? Dave (34m 56s): Right, right, right. That’s awesome. Yeah, definitely the pupa, the, the Sparkle pupa, I think that is part of the Gary LaFontaine, Gary Borg. There’s a few guys that were involved in all that, but those were huge. Yeah, I mean, depending on how you tied it, but that’s essentially a little, like you said, size 16, kind of a green imitating what, like a green rock worm or something like that. Right, Spencer (35m 15s): Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Dave (35m 17s): Yeah. Perfect. So, cool. Well, that’s a little bit on the cata. Let’s take it to a little bit later, like you said around the, the June time period when things start heating up. What, what does, how do things change there? What, what does that mean on, on those rivers? And are you still fishing? I mean, you’ve got all those rivers you mentioned. Are you really starting to focus on one during that time? Spencer (35m 33s): Yeah, that is when I’m heading up northwest of Taos, I’m gonna be focusing heavily on the S river as well as the Los Pinos. And the reason why is because mid to late June is when the Drakes start to come off. We start off with green Drakes earlier in the season, and then after a few weeks of the dray catch, we start to see more gray Drakes on the river. The dray catches are just spectacular. I mean, it’s a big giant may fly that offers a ton of protein for these fish and they’re quick to take ’em. Of course, on the Los Pinos we also have yellow Sallys taking off at the same time. Spencer (36m 18s): All of a sudden you get some golden stones, you’re gonna get some salmon flies coming off the big giant stone flies. But the Drakes tend to be the most exciting of all of the hatches around here for early summer. That’s where you can look up the river and you can literally locate just about every single fish just from the rises. Oh wow. God, it’s amazing. Oh yeah, it’s amazing here. Wow. Dave (36m 43s): And and are you fishing the Drake Hatch, is that totally different than how you’d be fishing some of these other patterns as far as where you’re finding the fish and presenting the fly? Spencer (36m 52s): You know, it’s interesting. If I’m fishing the dray catch those fish are keying in on those and the riffles a whole lot. You might be able to trick a fish into eating your fly in some of the eddy’s, but a lot of times that’s where the fish gets a better look at the bug. And so you might get refusals there. I like to always keep those flies in moving water so that the fish have to make a split second decision. And just like with the cat hatch, if the Dre Hatch is on, I’m gonna start with a double dry, I’m gonna use a, oh, I use, I tie a split hair wing Drake with, I use a deer hair that’s been dyed green. Spencer (37m 36s): I actually have, I did a Lebowski series of flies last year and my Drake dry flies actually called the dude. Oh, nice. And, and so I always like to start off with the dude because he’s the one that, that the fish key in on the most. I do also, and I know that the fly shops sometimes don’t like me saying this, but a hatch like the Drake Hatch, that’s such a prolific thing. I’ve had customers go into the local fly shop on the Cornejo River and look at what Drakes are in their bins and don’t use those. Yeah. Spencer (38m 16s): Right. And I know those guys are gonna hate me for say, I still say go in and support your local fly shop. But when it comes down to Drakes in Midseason, look and see what those fish are looking at because yeah, those fish know the inventory of all the local fly shops. Dave (38m 33s): Right. Good point. Spencer (38m 34s): Yeah. Come up with your own variant. I do, you know, sometimes if I’m hacking, I’ve got a, a thick nice hackle around that wing on my Drake. If I get refusals on it, sometimes I’ll try to get that fly to sit a little lower by clipping off some of the bottom hackle off of the fly. Just change it just a little bit and maybe that’s gonna trigger the strikes. Now the gray Drakes are a lot of fun. I do recommend if you’re tying flies for the gray Drakes to tie with the lightest gray you can find because it will naturally get a little darker when it hits the water. And of course we get into those golden stones that start off in around early July. Spencer (39m 16s): And that’s stimulator season. Dave (39m 18s): Yeah, stimulators. Okay. And do you guys get, you mentioned some bi, the Big Stones. Is that a hatch that you’re fishing as well? Do you get many of the big stones? Spencer (39m 25s): Oh yeah. It’s, and it’s talk on the river. I mean, you know, I’ll be getting together with my guys that are guiding upstream on the cohos and I’m downstream and they’ll come down and say, man I the goldens, they’re starting right now, you know, and boy, we gotta start getting up there. And typically on the Cohos River, the hatches start earlier in the year on the lower stretches. And then as you go up the river, it starts later and later and later. Dave (39m 54s): Today’s episode is brought to you by Grand Teton Fly Fishing. They’re a top guide, service and fly shop with access to some of the most prized waters in western Wyoming. And their guide team brings together over 200 years of local experience. Their goal is simple to share these amazing resources and help you experience the thrill of a native cutthroat rising to a single dryly all in the shadows of the Tetons. It’s the kind of experience that stays with you and fosters a deep appreciation for the waters we love. 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Dave (41m 20s): And then as you get into the season, I guess depending on the, the temperatures and things like that, do August, does that start to get a little warm up there? What does that look like? Spencer (41m 29s): August is a pretty slow month and you know, we are puddling around in the high country quite a bit more often in August, I start moving a lot of my guided trips to a stretch that I have access to on the upper Collibra Creek, which is outside of San Luis, Colorado. There’s a creek that’s flowing right out of this mega ranch and we can find cooler water up there in August. But yeah, water temps are really something to keep an eye on. And you know, a lot of times if it’s August we’re gonna be fishing first light in the morning and we’ll probably be wrapping it up around noon or one o’clock when that water temps up above 67 degrees. Spencer (42m 13s): Might as well give those fish a break. Dave (42m 15s): Yeah, it’s gonna, right. And then, and then the fall transition is kind of, when does that typically start? When do you start getting some of the hatches there? Spencer (42m 22s): Late September is when the fall stuff starts to take off. We have quite a nice trico hatch in late September. Lasts all the way through a lot of October. That’s gonna start around 10 in the morning and go up until about noon. And that’s just clouds and clouds of bugs. Fall fishing is interesting because the water is low and clear and they’re usually, you’re gonna be doing a lot more dry Fly fishing in the fall because there are a lot of grasses Oh right. That grow in the river and stuff. So droppers, you’re sometimes gonna do it a disservice on that. And then when we get into October, I move back into the Rio Grande and the Rio Grande Fall fishing is the, it is the place to be. Spencer (43m 9s): And you know, try to find your own personal goat trail that no one knows about. Get down into the gorge and see if you can trick some fish. Dave (43m 17s): Right. That’s awesome. No, I love that you brought it back to the Rio Grande. ’cause I feel like that’s one that would be cool. You know, I mean they’d all be cool to fish, but that one for sure because of, you know, because of what it is, the name, what is the gorge? So are, is this something where people, it’s mostly hiking in or people, are you able to get boats in the, in that gorge? Spencer (43m 34s): You know, the, our area is very unique on that. So if it’s high enough to float, it’s probably too high to fish. It is an extremely technical boating river. There’s, you know, for the boater, the area like the wild and scenic rivers that we have on, that’s a, a section of the Rio Grande National Monument. It’s called the razor blades there. And it is class five even in class six. Oh wow. Just because of the steep gradient and the giant boulders. So everything, you know, for most purposes is going to be walk in and wade. I don’t recommend, like if you’re going into the Wild Rivers area, I don’t recommend wearing waders. Spencer (44m 19s): I really seen more accidents happen from people aspiring to wade the river up there. And if you keep your feet dry and you just play frogger and you just jump up on and you just go from dry rock to dry rock, you can access all the river you need to and dry feet will keep you a lot safer. That basalt just turns into slick as ice if your feet are wet. So I recommend just, you know, wearing nice pair of hiking shoes and quick dry pants in case you do take a dip and, and all that. I have seen people down there fishing wearing helmets and protective gear because it is, it’s pretty unpredictable. Spencer (45m 0s): You hook into a fish of a lifetime and you’re trying to keep that guy on. You’re hopping from Boulder to Boulder trying to Wow. Not let ’em break off. It’s, it turns into a contact sport. Dave (45m 12s): No kidding. Spencer (45m 14s): I do. You know, but it’s a, it’s a unique experience, that’s for sure. Yeah. Dave (45m 19s): So it’s just a series of, it sounds like it’s a series of just giant boulders that you’re able to, not even, you don’t even have to touch the water necessarily. Spencer (45m 26s): Right. You don’t really have to get your feet wet. Now downstream of the Red River. The Red River dumps in at a place called Junta. Downstream of that there is, you know, it’s, it’s totally okay to weigh the Rio downstream of that confluence. But above the Red River Confluence. Yeah. It’s dry foot zone. Dave (45m 47s): I see. So above the Red River. And that’s the area that you’re usually covering? Spencer (45m 53s): Well, we’re all over the place. Really? Yeah. You’re everywhere. Yeah, we’re all over now. I try to, you know, being a guide for as long as I’ve guided here, I’ve got enough horror stories of having injuries, you know, having a customer getting hurt Oh right down in the bottom of the gorge and you’re thinking, how am I gonna get this guy outta here? So I typically, if I’m actually guiding, I’m not usually gonna be in wild Rivers unless I’ve got someone who I know is perfect for that setting. I’ll send people over there on their own risk. ’cause the fishing can be just fantastic. But there’s a couple of easier trails to get down into and longer riffle runs and bigger areas to wade right through the Rio. Spencer (46m 40s): Yeah. And I can produce a really nice guide trip on a lot of that stuff. But yeah, the’re really hard to get to stuff. I like to keep that one as day off water. Dave (46m 52s): Yeah, I gotcha. Day off water. Yeah. And then when you’re in there in that fall period kind of hopping the rocks or you and you’re just fishing dries mostly, is that what that looks like in the fall? Spencer (47m 2s): Yep. And I use a lot more attractor patterns in the fall if I’m hopping from rock to rock and I’m sight fishing quite a bit and you know, that’s, it’s, it, it’s a lot of fun. You can start picking up some rocks in the Rio and finding out the bug life that’s in there. You know, they will be very eager to grab a size 16 olive pheasant tail if it’s drifting in front of ’em the right way. You know, you can go with your standard fare in there, you know, late fall the browns actually start to spawn. They start running up the Red River to spawn and I like to leave those guys alone when they’re up in there Dave (47m 45s): In October. Is that Spencer (47m 47s): Yes, late October. Late October, all through November you start to see Browns start to run up the trips and to spawn. And I like to leave those guys alone during that time. Let the fish factory generate some more fish for us. Yep. Dave (48m 3s): Right. And are browns, so you got the Browns, you mentioned the cutthroat, the Rio Grande Cutthroat. Are there other species in that Spencer (48m 10s): Reach? Yeah, in the Rio Grande, you know, of course the Rio Grande Cutthroat is the, is the native fish that we have that should be here. Our Trot unlimited group here works with New Mexico game and fish. And we actually backpack fingerlings in to the Rio every year. Every year we go down in there with a whole bunch of fingerlings. Dave (48m 32s): Yeah. In the gorge. Spencer (48m 34s): Down in the gorge. And it’s, they turn it into a big party, you know. But yeah, we have browns, we also have carp. Hmm. Some nice big, big carp. Some pushing five pounds. Wow. And we do have Northern pike in here as well. The northern pike I believe were introduced in the 1920s to kind of control the pop the carp population and we know how that worked out. Yeah, right. It kind of, it, it really hurt our cutthroat numbers, the browns as well. I mean, they’ve been doing a job of keeping the cutthroat numbers down as well. Spencer (49m 15s): But yeah, it’s, it’s neat in the Rio because you just never know what you’re gonna hit. I mean, heck, we’ve got river otters like crazy. We’ve got, it’s, it’s really neat to get down in there and see you’re not just in a trout stream. It’s a living, breathing thing that’s just got all kinds of wildlife. Dave (49m 35s): Amazing. Yeah. That, that seems like the real grande for sure would be on the list once to get out there. And you’re, and you’re saying if you had to pick a time that October, maybe September early October would be a good time to go. Spencer (49m 46s): Exactly. Exactly. That’s when the water temperatures are coming down. The fish are, they know that the famine is coming and they’re gonna load up on calories. Dave (49m 56s): Yeah. Awesome. Well let’s start to take you outta here with our kind of, this is our tip segment we’re gonna get into. You’ve, you’ve actually shared a number of these great tips to get us focused. But I’m thinking about, you know, again, we’re putting together a trip. Let’s just take it to that fall period on the Rio Grande. What are a few things you’re telling somebody, you know, either maybe they’re on the water with you to kind of have more success, you know, while you’re out there? Spencer (50m 16s): Well, sure in the fall, some of the biggest tips that I like to pass along is to wear natural colors. You know, you can leave the red hat or a yellow hat, orange, any of those non-natural colors. Leave it at home. Almost dress like a hunting trip. Dave (50m 33s): Right. So camos. Okay. If you wanted to go like, full on Yeah. Spencer (50m 37s): Camo is good. Yep. There you go. Yeah. And even blue is okay. I mean, heck, the sky’s blue. And I do recommend taking a casting lesson, really get to where you’re proficient at a 25 foot cast with a soft lay down if we’re gonna be hitting dryly. And then also I do recommend bringing at least a nine foot rod. Five weight is ideal for the trout. Bring that seven weight if we’re gonna go after some pike, after some northerns in which I’ll bring the steel leaders. Yeah. And all that. And then also just being aware of what the weather is doing. Spencer (51m 20s): If I see rains in the forecast for that afternoon, I mean those storms, if you’re in the bottom of the gorge, you can’t see ’em coming from a distance. So when it comes, it could come hard. And you know, we get mudslides and we get, you know, those rocks are just slicker than snot if it’s raining and things are wet. So always being really, really aware of the weather forecast is a huge thing. And also being prepared to hike down into the gorge. We sit at an altitude of 7,000 feet above sea level, which is fine for, for most folks, but if you’re from sea level and you don’t exercise much, probably might not wanna hike down into the gorge. Spencer (52m 6s): The Rio Grande actually does have a few vehicle accessible spots where we can be successful. I mean, we’re gonna see some people and maybe be more stocked trout ’cause they do stock a lot of rainbows still. But for the wild stuff, getting into the areas that are kind of been held secret and things like that, you know, you kind of have to come with your A game and be prepared to get skunk ’cause they could happen. And so expectations, the realistic expectations just need to be in check of, Hey, I’m gonna go down to the gorge and spend some time on the water today. It’s gonna be a lot of fun. And that’s what we’re looking for. Spencer (52m 48s): We’re showing up with an open mind. You might wanna see some big horn sheep, some petroglyphs, some geology that you probably hadn’t seen before. So coming in with an open mind, realistic expectations is huge. Dave (53m 2s): That’s it. Nice. And that’s, I mean, and it sounds like you’ve, you’ve said what makes this unique? I mean, it’s got all the hatches, but also it’s more than just the fishing kind of, it’s a, it sounds like a pretty unique area. Is that, is that how you explain to others how this is different than different parts of the West? Spencer (53m 17s): Yes, absolutely. Yeah. It’s very much unique. Dave (53m 20s): Nice. Well, we will definitely, well, and we’ll have some links here. I wanted to get into a couple random ones for you, with you here before we get outta here. And you mentioned some injuries, things like that. But I, I, I did hear did you have a little bit of music in your background? Spencer (53m 34s): Oh, not too terribly much. Yeah. I mean, you know, I’ve got a, I’ve played guitar since I was a kid and, and stuff, but you know, there I went through a phase when I was trying to sing old cowboy songs and folk songs. Okay. Yeah. And stuff. But now, after, you know, I’ve got so many things that I’m into these days, aside from fly tying and fishing, I’m also a, a salmon fly hook maker. I make hooks Oh. From scratch. And over the last year I’ve gotten into watchmaking as well. So it’s needless to say I, I’m always working to keep a steady hand. Spencer (54m 16s): Yeah. Dave (54m 16s): Wow. So you’re actually making, you’re actually making the, the hooks, the classic salmon hooks. Spencer (54m 21s): Yep. I make ’em myself. I use a kneeled steel that shows up to me for, that’s completely soft. You can bend it with your bare hands. And I actually have a barb cutter that actually cuts the barb into the steel if I’m doing something for display to look like the old salmon hooks. And then I do all the hook point shaping with files in a vice. And then I have bending jigs that I bend the hook steel around to get the hook shape. And my neighbor is a gunsmith and we actually do all of our hardening, tempering and finishing of the hooks at his place. Spencer (55m 2s): And I do my own Japan black recipe, which is the same stuff they use for Ford Motor Company for the Model Ts. And I make that mixture myself and put that on the hooks and bake it in. It’s a long, long process, but the cool thing is, is that I can, I can make any shape that I’ve ever dreamed of in a hook because now I have that freedom to do so. Wow. Dave (55m 28s): Yeah. Taking it to the next level. That’s awesome. What would you, what would you tell somebody who was interested in getting into tying classic salmon flies? You know, like maybe they’ve tied a little bit that were, you know, where would they start? What, what do you think is a good place to start to learn about and Spencer (55m 42s): Get? So the, the first thing is to ignore the, I’d say to ignore a lot of the books that have been written recently. Go back to the source. There’s a book that was written by Captain Hale, HALE, and he had a book called How to Tie Salmon Flies. And it’s a thin book. It doesn’t have a ton of recipes in there, but his techniques are spot on. Nice. And also I recommend we have a new classic tire get in. I know that Facebook is probably an easy way to get to be a part of the community express that you’re wanting to get into tying these things and start with a pattern like a Red Rover that, or a Kate, a pattern that’s really simple that doesn’t have a lot of extras and work on tying that fly and then post the fly on one of these groups and you better have thick skin. Spencer (56m 46s): ’cause some people are gonna tear you apart. Yep. But it’s all for your own good to becoming a good fly dresser. Dave (56m 52s): Yeah, that’s right. And this is a lot different than, is it a lot different than just regular fly tying? You know, when you think about tying a, a steelhead fly or something like that, this is a, a whole different level. Spencer (57m 3s): It is a whole different level now. The steelhead tires definitely use a lot of crossover techniques that come from classic fly tying. Dave McNeese being one of the masters, is unbelievable at tying these, these flies and he’s more of a steelhead guy. But yeah, so I think, you know, the materials are gonna be different. I try to always avoid using modern threads. I do recommend getting a hold of real silk thread. A lot of the fly shops online, fly shops carry it. It’s a company called 54 Dean Street. Spencer (57m 44s): They actually make a, a real silk thread and don’t use dubbing wax. You’re actually, there is a recipe to make your own wax really easily. Or some of us, if any of your listeners are wanting to get into tying the classics, they can get ahold of me and I’ll send them some wax. Oh, Dave (58m 2s): Nice. Spencer (58m 3s): Yeah. And, and you know, it’s difficult but it’s not impossible. It’s a lot of fun once you can start tying flies that look good. Dave (58m 11s): Yeah, exactly. What are the, the groups out there, you mentioned the Facebook, are there, could you just search classic, you know, salmon flies sort of thing. How would you find the groups? Spencer (58m 20s): The, the first group is classic fly tying. It’s all one word on Facebook. And then the other one is classic salmon fly tying all separate words. Those are two groups on Facebook that I recommend anyone check out. You’ve got some of the greatest tires in the world as part of this and everyone is willing to help. We’re not setting up anyone for failure. And it’s a worldwide community. So if you post a fly, you might get someone from Scotland or the UK chiming in on some pointers. And that’s what I love about the Salmon Flyting community is that it’s worldwide. Dave (58m 59s): Do you occasionally see guys out there swinging one of these flies for a salmon, Spencer (59m 4s): You know, in this area? I see I’ve got some guys that practice some spa asing on the lower, on the lower Rio Grande. And you know, that hasn’t, we don’t have really a wide enough river. I think micropay kinda works and switch rods is a good way to go for the lower Rio just to practice your swing. But if I’m gonna fish one of my classics, I’m gonna fish it with a single hand, six weight rod. And, and I’m just, I like to cast across the stream, let that fly swing across the current as I maintain tension. Spencer (59m 44s): And you’ll feel that strike if, if and when it happens. Yeah. Dave (59m 48s): You mentioned at the start that Jock Scott, have you had any success on with the Browns with that one? Well, Spencer (59m 54s): That particular fly, I actually had a feeling that something was gonna come of this story. So that fly has, I, I put it aside. Oh, right. I put it away. I still have it. It’s actually that fly is in the book itself. It’s, there’s oh, a photograph of it and that fly is actually the cover of the Swedish copy of the Feather Thief. Oh, okay. But, but yeah, I’ve actually had a lot of success on a fly called the Fiery Brown, the Jock Scott. I kind of, I was still a little green when it came down to what would these fish take? And a jock Scott being king of the classics has so many elements making it very difficult to tie. Spencer (1h 0m 37s): And so I kind of, I don’t need to go that fancy, especially if I’ve got a brown that’s got teeth that’s gonna tear that fly up. Anyway. Yeah. So I stick to some simpler patterns. I definitely, the fiery brown is by far and large my favorite fly to swing here. There’s another one called Old Blue, which is an old Irish fly that’s a little bit simpler to tie as well. And I forgot to tell you that a lot of my salmon flies that I’m tying, I’m tying ’em traditionally, which means that I’m not using a vice. Oh. Dave (1h 1m 10s): Or a Bobby. Wow. Spencer (1h 1m 12s): I still do tie a lot in my vice, but I do tie in hand a lot Dave (1h 1m 16s): In hand. Right. Wow. Okay. So you’re, you’ve got the, you’re you’ve got the extremes going here. You’re, so, you’re, you Spencer (1h 1m 22s): Know, well, you know what’s cool about tying in hand is you can tie anywhere. You can go to a kid’s soccer game and tie, fly. Oh yeah. Dave (1h 1m 28s): Right, right. That’s really cool. So that’s not an easy thing to do, right? I mean, have you been doing that for quite a while? Spencer (1h 1m 34s): I started tying in hand about six years ago, and my son was only two years old. I have an 8-year-old son and he was two and I was hanging out at home with him and I really wanted to, I, I couldn’t just sit at my desk and tie and watch this crazy kid at the same time. So I had to come up with something more portable. And one of my fly tying mentors, his name is Adrian Cortes. Oh yeah, Adrian, right. Adrian is just, he’s really the one that got me into tying in hand. I met him when I was tying at the 2016 Atlantic Salmon Fly International in Seattle. Spencer (1h 2m 14s): And I started seeing my heroes tying in hand and I was like, man, I gotta try that. And it’s a learning curve. Yeah. But it’s a lot of fun once you can look at it. Once you can hold up a fly you’re proud of and say, I did this with my hands. I Dave (1h 2m 28s): Know. God, that is great. We’ve got an episode with Adrian, I think it was a while back. Well actually he was on In the Bucket or in the Bucket podcast series with Brian Ska. So that was, that wasn’t too long ago here, earlier this year. Him and and Richard were on, they talked about, you know, that was a good episode as well. So, we’ll, we’ll get a link out to that one too. So this has been good. Spencer, I think that this has been awesome to hear. I mean, Roy starting out from the, the Feather Thief and ending back with the Feathers has been great, but you obviously have everything going on. We will, we’ll leave everybody a link to zia fly.com if they have questions for you. And any last words for anybody as we head outta here as far as your program? Dave (1h 3m 8s): Or do we cover it pretty well and I mean, high level? Well, Spencer (1h 3m 11s): Yeah, just if you got any questions, please ask. I’m happy to help with anything from fishing to fly, tying hook, making questions, fire away. And I’m very accessible. So if you plan on coming out here to Taos, just know that we are a low water year this year. The earlier you can get here, the better. I think July and August might be a little warm and low for us here. So if we want to come to Taos, either hit it in the first part of the summer or wait and come out this fall. Dave (1h 3m 43s): Okay. And then, yeah, then the fall, we’ll circle back around when temperatures cool down. Spencer (1h 3m 47s): Exactly. Perfect. Dave (1h 3m 48s): Okay. Awesome. Spencer, we we’ll be in touch and thanks again. Spencer (1h 3m 52s): Thank you Dave. I really appreciate it. Dave (1h 3m 56s): Call to action today. If you haven’t yet, check in with Spencer. You can do that@ziafly.com. Go to Zia Fly on Instagram, let me know. Let him know you heard this podcast and let him know you are interested in learn more about New Mexico. And if you have a Feather Thief question, he might be able to answer, especially when it comes to the classic flight tying. If you haven’t already, you can subscribe to this podcast and make sure you get that next episode delivered right to your inbox. The next one is, as always a good one. CJ’s Real Southern podcast. Chad Johnson is back for his monthly series on fishing trophy trout, and not only on the White River, but around the country. Dave (1h 4m 37s): Chad Johnson’s here, he’s gonna be bringing it. So I hope you can check that one out. If you haven’t heard Wet Fly Swing Pro, this is the shop where we’re doing stuff, building our own trips, building trips together. We’re doing a launch and we’re doing this four times per year. And if you wanna go to wetly swing.com/pro, you can sign up there, get your name on the list and I’ll follow up with you. And we get that next launch going out there. And you can get access to Wetly Swing Pro and I’ll fill you in on the more details there. All right, I gotta get outta here. Hope you have a great evening. Hope you’re having a great morning, and if it’s afternoon, hope you’re having a good lunch or maybe you’re on the river. Appreciate you for stopping in today and look forward to hearing from you and maybe talking you on the next episode.