723 | Guiding in the Catskills with John Francis – Trout Town Flies, New York Fly Fishing, Dry Fly Fishing

Dave (2s): What is the most famous place you know of with more fly fishing history than any other in the country? The east and west branch of the Delaware the Beaver Kill. And many more of these streams in this area have some of the earliest days of dry fly fishing in the US We have a Catskills guide who is going to share some of his best tips on fishing the winter and beyond on some of these famous waters of New York. So you might have a little more knowledge to apply to your home waters this year. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. How’s it going today? I’m Dave host of the We Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid, grew up around a fly shop and have created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts in this country. Dave (48s): I’ve also interviewed more of the greatest fly anglers and guides than just about anyone out there. John Francis Trout Town Guide and new drift boat owner is gonna take us through the Catskills and the seasons throughout the year. You’re gonna get his best tips on fishing during the winter with Midges. We’re gonna get into some Midge activity today. You’re gonna find out how to fish your rig even during the colder months and how to change your style a little bit. And then we’re gonna build the perfect trip and the perfect time to hit the Catskills this year. Plus, you’re gonna find out what Bug Week is all about and when you should be thinking of taking advantage of this massive hatch in this area of the Catskills. Alright, here we go. The birthplace of modern fly fishing. Dave (1m 29s): John Francis from trout town flies.com. How you doing, John? John (1m 36s): I’m good. Dave (1m 37s): Good, good, good. Great to have you on here. We’re gonna be heading back into the Catskills, which is, you know, obviously a famous part of the country. Every time I have a episode on this area, it always gets me excited, you know, about it because I think just the history right of it is pretty amazing. And we’re gonna talk Trout Town flies. We had Joe Wrist on a podcast. We’ll have a link to that one as well. But how are things going? It’s cold out there, right? You guys hanging in there? John (2m 1s): Oh yeah, it’s freezing. You know, we’re not doing much fishing Right now, we’re just waiting for spring at this point. Dave (2m 6s): Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it’s, so it’s been a cold year, but, and Right now we’re kind of in the, you know, February, we’re getting into February. It’s gonna be March pretty soon. When does typical year for you guys in the Catskills, when are you typically getting going on, say some of your trips? John (2m 22s): Usually April, like right at the beginning of April, we, we start, that’s when the season starts as well. April 1st through October 15th. And that’s really when people start trickling into the shop and stuff like that. And they want to learn how to fly fish and stuff like that. But we do get some people that if the weather permits, they want to go out in February or March. Dave (2m 44s): Right. So you do, so if, if like somebody comes in and they’re, maybe there’s a, a little bit warmer weather, you would get out there and and do a trip in in like February, March? John (2m 53s): Absolutely. Dave (2m 54s): Okay, nice. And, but this year it’s been a little cold. What is the typical, if you take it to, you know, let’s just say it’s February, March, what are you guys typically fishing? What does that look like? And like talk a little bit about, first maybe talk about the areas that you’re at and then what you’d be fishing there John (3m 10s): During that time of year. I’m usually looking at the tail waters just because they’re, they’re more like regulated by the dam and you know, there’s probably less ice, especially up more near the dams. So I like to fish like right up as close to the dam as I can get on either the east or the west branch. And you know, it depends on how high the water is and stuff, but just a single nim for two Nims with a yarn indicator has, has done me well over the years. Dave (3m 40s): Okay. And and what are the typical nymphs you might be using under the indicator? John (3m 45s): Like a little pheasant tail or hairs, ear, even a zebra midge. I’ve had luck with red midges with gold wire. You know, I just, I try, sometimes I just get behind the vice and I throw some things together and I go try it as well and it, it does me good. Dave (4m 1s): Good. And is it the typical size range, kind of 18 to 24, is that typical for images out there? John (4m 7s): Yeah, sometimes you can get away like with a 16 on a curved hook, like a scud hook. But yeah, usually the smaller the better. I usually stick to 22 will be the smallest I go. Dave (4m 20s): Yeah, 22. John (4m 21s): Yeah. Okay. Just because those big fish, you know, it’s tough to get that little tiny hook stuck in their lip the right way. Right, Dave (4m 27s): Right, right. Yeah. So maybe 20 twos and that’s, I’ve heard some on that like maybe half of the feeding that trout are doing is on Midges throughout the winter. Do you find that that’s pretty common on Midges? Are there other insects, other hatches things you’re fishing John (4m 42s): Like the pheasant tail? You know, I feel like the nim, the NIMS live for a year or more under the water, so they’re readily available. You know, all it takes is for them to get dislodged so you can really fish whatever you want. But I’ve had luck in the winter, the smaller the better, you know, I use mostly jig hooks for my stuff and I found that a, I don’t get hung up on the bottom as much and I get way better hookup ratios. Dave (5m 8s): Okay. And is it jig hook? Would you fish so you could fish, like you said the zebra midge on a size 20 with a jig hook? John (5m 14s): Yeah, I usually do the 22 on the zebra midges for the jig hooks and then anything else like a 20 or 18 during the winter, Dave (5m 22s): 20 or 18. Nice. Well this is, this is a great start. We’re gonna get into this, I think talking more Midges talking about, you know, fishing on the Catskills. And we’ll probably get into a little more specific. So maybe before we get there, take us back real quick on your fly fishing. I wanna talk Trout town, but how did you first get into fly fishing, you know, and kind of what’s your first memory? John (5m 40s): So I’m 26 now, but I started tying when I was about six. My dad got me into it and everything. And then I think when I was about eight or nine, we were, we were camping up at Little Pond State Campground and I had, for years I’d just been practicing casting in the yard. Like my dad would put out a five gallon bucket and I’d go out there and we, I live right on the, I lived right on the Ramapo River. I could have went down there and practiced, but for some reason I just stayed in the yard and I wanted to get that, that little yarn piece in that bucket. And so we were at the state campground. I tell him that I’m gonna go practice my cast on the beach and he gives me, I tied a few wooly buggers and I gave ’em to him and he gave me one of ’em back and he said, just go cast this into the water. John (6m 25s): So I’m practicing my cast, practicing my cast. I ended up catching like an 18 inch brown trout, the first trout I ever caught on a fly rod in Oh wow. Pretty much right there. It was. I was pretty much hooked, you know, I was, I’ve been into it ever since. So my tying, I have all the tying stuff and everything, you know. Dave (6m 42s): Right. When did you connect with Trout Town? Because I think they’ve been there a while, right? Maybe talk about that. When did that come to be with Joe and all that stuff? John (6m 51s): So before Joe owned Trout Town, me and my dad used to go into Trout Town ’cause he used to take me to the Willow Wock as well when I was a kid. And we used to go in and see Dennis when it was Catskill flies and then some stuff happened. We didn’t get up to the Catskills very much over the next few years. And, and then my dad unfortunately got cancer and passed away and I moved back to New York to take care of my grandma and I was gung-ho like get to get back into fly fishing and all that stuff. And over six months, you know, I’m exploring the rivers on my own and I still had my, my own setup and everything. John (7m 31s): And I ended up just going back to Roscoe and, ’cause that’s where my dad always took me and I remember it as Catskill flies, but then I noticed Trout Town fly. So I started going in there talking to Joe and he was always the greatest guy in town to go get information or talk to or just, you know, walk in and have a great conversation about fishing. And over the time I was, I was a chef and I just hated being inside all day. Even during the summer in the hot kitchen, I just wanted to be outside. So I started talking to Joe about getting my guide license and you know, he encouraged me to do it and told me he’d give me a shot. John (8m 11s): So I went and got my guide license and we’re going on four years now. Wow. And I work, I work in the shop and we’re great friends. And I just did the New Jersey fly fishing show for Child Town Flies along with Butternut Grove, a campground that me and Joe both stay at as seasonals. So we had a great little community up in Roscoe. Dave (8m 31s): Wow. That’s cool. So how was the, so this was the, was this the Edison show? John (8m 36s): Yes sir. Dave (8m 37s): Yeah. How was that for you? Was that your first show or had you been to those shows before? John (8m 40s): That was my second time being to the Edison Show. It was my second show ever. So last year I did it for the first time. It was, it was cool. I booked a few trips, you know, it was kind of like a, my first time doing the thing, so I was kind of like getting a feeling for it this year. I lost, lost my Voice on Saturday. Yeah. You know, it was a, it was a busy weekend Right. And I helped clean up on Sunday. I actually brought home my new Drift boat as well. Dave (9m 6s): Oh no kidding. Yeah. John (9m 7s): From the show. So that was pretty cool. Dave (9m 9s): Oh wow. So was this something you were, you had already purchased? Yeah, John (9m 13s): This was something that I was planning to go get in March or February and then the owner of the company hit me up and he was like, I’ll bring it to the New Jersey show. And it saved me 12 hours of driving, so. Dave (9m 24s): Oh wow. And what was the boat you picked up? John (9m 27s): I got a stealth craft, big Horn skiff, stealth Dave (9m 29s): Craft, big Horn. Yeah. And Steal Craft is the pretty much the big company out on the east coast. Right. As far as drift boats. John (9m 36s): Yeah. We saw another drift boat there, it was like East Cape Boats and it was a carbon fiber boat, but Oh, okay. South Craft really has the, like they really customize your boat exactly how you want it. It’s pretty cool. Yeah, Dave (9m 49s): They do. And what was it, what was your, it was the self craft. What was the name of it? John (9m 53s): The Big Horn skiff. Dave (9m 54s): Oh yeah, the Big Horn. Yeah. Okay. Big Horn skiff. I’m just gonna plug this in. Take a look at it. So, so what did you, on that big horn skiff, did you do a lot of customizing or is it pretty standard on what you got? John (10m 5s): I actually did quite a bit of customizing. You know, a lot of ’em, there’s only ever the guy that built my boat was telling me there’s only ever been eight skiffs with the floor Anchor one. Mine was one of them. Dave (10m 17s): Okay. So you got the floor anchor? John (10m 18s): Yeah, I got a full pickles tray on one side and then a half tackle tray on the other side for easy access in and out, you know, and then I got a tie down cooler in the front seat. Dave (10m 29s): Oh sure. Yeah. Like a, like a Yeti type one of those cooler or whatever. Yep. With like seats. Is this, you got the padded seats or what does that look like? Is this all, John (10m 35s): Oh, I got the temper seats. They’re very, they’re nice. And then I also got the upgraded casting braces. ’cause stealth crafts, regular casting braces are nice, but they’re a little short. I got the ones that kind of buck out a little bit more and Okay. Are a little bit more stable. But one thing I did too was I’m gonna build a little platform to put right behind the false floor and ’cause we, the tr town flies and I know a guy, good friend named Nico, he does a lot of work with project healing waters and stuff like that. And so with the cooler I can take it out and I can actually put a platform behind the false floor and strap in a wheelchair. Oh nice. If, you know, if someone wanted to get out there and was having a hard time and stuff like that. Dave (11m 16s): Sure. That’s great. Nice stealth craft. I’ve never wrote a stealth craft, but I’ve heard lots about ’em and obviously they’re doing some great stuff. I know we had the, the founder on, in a episode a while back and he talked about, you know, the customization, you know what I mean? Like he was in trying to always do different things. He thought that that was a really important part of, you know, just the evolution of boats. So, so that’s cool. Yeah, it’s a sweet looking boat. We’ll put some links out in the show notes to that one. And now the drift boat, are you guys doing a mix of drift and foot or is that kind of like 50 50? Or how does that look throughout the year? John (11m 48s): Yeah, I mean we, through the shop and myself, we both do waiting trips and float trips. You know, it’s just whatever the client wants. Typically I like to do take beginners waiting first ’cause it’s just easier to work with them and teach ’em the cast and teach ’em how to mend and everything. ’cause they don’t have to row a boat at the same time. And you know, it’s just easier to learn standing in one spot than going down the river, I think. But you know, for some people they just want to get out in the boat and have a good ride and cast the rod a few of times. So that’s, that’s cool too. Dave (12m 19s): Yeah, that is cool. What are the, for the drift boats, what, what are the rivers you’re fishing typically with the boat? John (12m 25s): Yeah, typically we’re just on the Delaware, the east branch, the west branch and the, the main stem. Dave (12m 30s): Okay. Yeah. And these are, and remind me again on the, on the Delaware, are they both tailwaters or what do they have going there? John (12m 36s): Yeah, they’re both tail waters. They come out of the Pakan Reservoir and the Cannon Fill reservoir. Dave (12m 41s): Okay. So they’re both tailwaters and these are fairly, I guess obviously big enough to run a drift boat. What does it look like when you’re drifting down the river? What does your day look like? Is this something where you’re fishing outta the boat most day? Or are you getting out in and out? John (12m 53s): Some people are just like, you know, there’s, we tell people that sometimes they don’t even have to wear their waders, you know, that we just float down the river. Like on the West branch you can really do that, just float down the river and you can park the boat. The God will get out and walk it through a riffle and you can stay in the boat. But if you’re floating the east branch, it’s a little bit of a smaller river, a little tighter. And those spots you might have to get out and get around some spots. Or it might be smarter to get out and walk down a little bit and fish a hole before you row into it. But a typical day on the river is, you know, if it’s a full day you put in around 8 30, 9 o’clock, you know, depending on the time of year, we’re usually getting into fish pretty early, you know, and if it’s prime time, it can be an all day thing. John (13m 36s): Right. Dave (13m 37s): It can be. Okay. And we can talk more about some of the drifts and things like that, but, but let’s take it back on. So Joe, so basically yeah, you have this connection through your dad and through the family of that area, you come back and you’re kind of, it sounds like you’re, you’re all in on the fly fishing. Is that kinda, is that how it feels to you? How does it feel now that you’ve got four years in and, and looking back on the, the stuff you’re doing with the cooking and things like that? John (13m 60s): Oh, it feels like I don’t ever want to be back in a kitchen, you know? Yeah. Like having the river as an office is, is like the greatest feeling. One thing my dad always told me was, he said, if you do what you love, you’ll never work a day in your life. Mm. Yeah. And like Joe gives me a check for guiding or whatever and I’m surprised still, you know, I’m like, I can’t believe I get paid to do this. It’s awesome Dave (14m 21s): That, that’s John (14m 22s): Cool. So I see myself doing this for as long as possible. Dave (14m 25s): Nice. And is the Catskills, I mean, it is obviously probably maybe the most famous, definitely one of the most famous areas in the country. What is it to you? Why, why do you feel that out there? Like, do the history and stuff, do you know a little about the history? Is that something you’re, you’re kind of up on or does it just feel like a, you know, just any other river? John (14m 43s): No, I definitely feel the history because, you know, I’ve met Joan Wolf and you know, Tom Mason and a lot of Ed van put, you know, a lot of these people that are, some of ’em passed and you know, some of ’em still around and you know, the history is definitely there. You know, there’s, people talk about it all the time in the cats coast, you know, that’s, if you come fly fishing there, your guide is definitely gonna tell you a story or two about the old days, you know? Dave (15m 8s): Right. Yeah, exactly. And, and do you know some of those stories? How, how do you, when you have somebody on your trip, are you, are you talking about some of this since you’re a little bit younger or are you kind of creating your own stories? What, what does that look like? John (15m 21s): Oh, I, you know, I have some of my own stories about, you know, funny things that happened on the river and stuff. But you know, you know, I think Joe mentioned in the podcast about the train that Oh yeah. Broke down on the river and they had to put the trout in the river. Yeah. You know, I always tell that story ’cause I think that’s a great story. Yeah. It’s about the rainbow trout and everything like that. Dave (15m 40s): Yep. Right. That, that was the, the train crashing back in the, whatever it was, a hundred, 200 years ago or, or whatever a hundred years ago had had. Yeah. Rainbow were just dumped into what, what the The Delaware. John (15m 51s): Yeah. Right into the Delaware. Dave (15m 53s): Right. And now to this day, you still find, and that’s the reason why there are rainbows in the Delaware. John (15m 58s): Yeah. I mean, as far as we know, some places put rainbows in ponds and stuff and you know, during some floods, some of them may have gone into the system. But when you hook a rainbow in the Catskills, it’s not like hooking a rainbow out in Pennsylvania or New Jersey or something like that. Like it’s an affluent battle. Right. It’s really different. Like I go to Pulaski and I fish for steelhead every once in a while. And it really does feel like just a small steelhead. It’s a lot different than any other rainbow I’ve caught anywhere else. Dave (16m 32s): Trout Routes is the most comprehensive mapping app for trout anglers. With over 50,000 trout streams, 350,000 access points, public land maps and more Trout routes is the number one resource for navigating, researching and exploring trout streams. You can download trout routes for free in the app store today. 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Yeah, it’s interesting, the, the story I just heard another one from, we were doing a episode on the White River in Arkansas, and I didn’t realize this, but they stalked that the brown trout were stalked, you know, way back in the day as well, you know, and, and now it’s, you know, it’s taken time, but now it’s this amazing fishery, you know, that’s grown up and you know, and so there’s lots of these examples, case studies of, of great, you know, things that have happened over the years For you, let’s take it back into again that wintertime. Let’s just say it’s February kind of in late February into March and you’re out there in the river. Dave (17m 59s): Talk about that. Let, let’s just say it’s, it’s not too cold, you’re able to fish. What does that look like? Are you getting started early in the morning later? You know, first of all, where do you get started and what might you be fishing that time of year? John (18m 10s): So during that time, I’m gonna probably get to the river. As soon as that temperature starts to rise, you know, the air temperature starts to rise, that’s when I wanna be getting in the water and stuff like that. You know, I’m gonna start off fishing like the slow, the real slow, like right as from like, I wanna say like the middle of the pool up to the head of the pool, right in that slow water. And then work my way into the fast water. ’cause fish will still sit in the fast water even in the winter. But typically I’ll fish, you know, like 18 pheasant Taylor hares ear prince or something, something to get it down. And then a small zebra mini or even a smaller pheasant tail behind that. John (18m 52s): And then, you know, just, just depending on the depth of the water, you know, I get it within a foot or within six inches of the bottom if I can, if I know the river pretty well on the pool, I’m fishing and then, you know, throughout the day I don’t spend a whole day in one spot. You know, I’ll spend two, three hours really fish over an area and then I’ll move and then go to another spot. And if I’m lucky, I’ll get the three spots in one day. You know, I feel like winter fishing is really about moving around and stuff like that. You know, you wanna find where the fish are. If you find one fish there, it’s liable that there’s a few more there. Dave (19m 26s): Right, right, right. So if you get some action, that’s some positive reinforcement. So stay there, don’t leave necessarily right away. John (19m 32s): Yeah, I, I wanna, I mean I’ve caught like four or five fish right outta the same spot in the winter sometimes after all day of moving around, walking up, walking down, you know, and then you just find out where they’re holding for that moment. Dave (19m 46s): Right. When you come up to that pool, if you’re starting in the middle of the pool working up, where are you fishing? How do you know where the fish are holding in that pool? Are you looking for certain structure? What are you looking for? John (19m 57s): So I fish close to me and if the river’s clear, I look for weed beds on the bottom. I fish next to ’em, not over top of ’em, just ’cause the fish will sit right next to those weed beds. You know, large rocks. Put the nims right next to ’em around them both sides if you can. Sometimes if you see a current break behind the rock, you know, this fish will sit right behind the rocks during the winter ’cause it’s just an easy spot to sit. They don’t have to expend a lot of energy and as soon as something floats by they just swoop over and grab it. Found a lot of luck doing that. And then another big thing in the winter too is streamers, if you’re not having luck on nims, don’t be scared that the three or four inch streamer out there just on the, to the other bank, if it’s a small river and just twitch it back across, you know, like let it swing and just small little strips. John (20m 44s): I’ve caught some pretty nice winter fish doing that as well. Dave (20m 47s): Okay. Yeah, so, so, and you would be throwing on, what would be an example of a streamer you might fish in the winter? John (20m 54s): So I try a lot on my own, I guess you could call it like a, a ver a version of like a sex dungeon or something. But I use like laser dove for the head and I use a lot of arctic fox, but I kind of wrap the body like a wooly bugger with like Palmer, Sunil and stuff like that. But it’s got gray movement and they’re usually articulated, but I’ll cut the, the back hook off. Dave (21m 16s): Oh you do? Yeah, John (21m 17s): Just ’cause usually, you know, I’m not, I don’t want to kill any fish, so. Right. If they, if if I get a short strike, you know, I just, I let it sit and then I give it a few more twitches. If he comes back and, and eats it, I’m glad it’s not, you know, then no big deal. No big deal. Dave (21m 32s): Yeah. Right. And yeah, so that is on the articulates. You’ve got this hook at the very back. Do you find, I guess guys are fishing those, how are they avoiding hooking those fish deep with those flies? John (21m 42s): Well sometimes, usually when a trout, I’ve noticed when a trout eats a streamer, they hit it from the side, you know, so they won’t, like, sometimes, don’t get me wrong, they’ll come up from the back and just engulf the whole thing. And that’s usually when you have your tea hook problems. But most of the tryout, I feel like they, they like hit it from the side and if there is two hooks on it, you’ll get both hooks in the outside of the mouth. And then the problem I have is they’ll start spinning in the net and doing all this stuff and get all wrapped up and you know, their eyes start bulging outta their heads and I don’t like that. So it’s not good. I’ve noticed with the one hook, it keeps that back end like free. So you can kind of just like keep some tension on the line and if he starts to spin, you can just keep some tension and let the line spin and he won’t get all wrapped up and stuff like that. Dave (22m 31s): That’s great. Yeah, that’s good advice. I, I agree. I think, yeah, you got two hooks in there, it’s, it’s bad enough with one hook in a net, but yeah, you get two and it’s, it can be messy. Okay. So that’s a good tip on the streamers. And then, so when you’re ing talk about the, talk about the leader setup real quick. How does that look? You mentioned the strike indicator, talk about your terminal tackle end and all that stuff. John (22m 51s): So I like to use an airflow poly liter plus on my rods. It’s a, it’s like an, I call it an extension of your fly line down to a tbit ring. And then for my MPH rig I will, I’ll put like, let’s say depending on the river level, like anywhere from two to four feet, maybe even five feet to four x tie, a triple surgeons not probably down to five or five and a half x to my largest fly. And then I’ll put that little fly off the back of that. Gotcha. Right to the hook bend with about, with usually five and a half or six x fluorocarbon Dave (23m 29s): And like 18 inches, something like that. John (23m 31s): Yeah, usually like 12 to 18 inches, 12 Dave (23m 33s): To 18. Gotcha. So, and you might use a, maybe a bigger hook on your lead fly and then trailing off of that just a smaller, a merger or something like that, or another nip? John (23m 41s): Yeah, usually two nymphs. Dave (23m 43s): Two nymphs. Okay. You John (23m 44s): Know, because I like to fish the pools and stuff, but I feel like the deeper pools, slower moving pools is better for the streamer stuff. ’cause the fish don’t have, if you’re floating in nim through a pool that’s just super slow, they got forever to look at it and they might be hungry enough to where they eat it. But I like to fish like the heads with the nose because it’s kind of just moving a little bit faster and you know, they’re more inclined to just look up, see it and, and eat it in my eyes. Dave (24m 10s): Gotcha. Okay. And, and how would you maybe describe when you’re in that pool, talk about how you’re fishing? Are you casting for the most part upstream or talk about, you know, how you’re fishing the indicator? John (24m 20s): Well it really all depends on how the river is, you know, flowing in front of me if there’s current breaks or if there’s different seams and stuff like that. But typically I’ll be like at the head of a pool and there’ll be a back at you that I’m standing in or some of the sorts, something like that. And I wanna get those nms down. So I do cast almost on like a up, if the, all the water’s uniform and flowing the same, I’ll cast like on a upstream just a little bit, if across the river’s 12 o’clock I’ll probably cast at 11 or 10 30. And then I’ll just try to give a, a big man, get all that line behind my indicator and then I’m letting my nymph sink and I’m, I’m feeding my line out as it goes down. I’d probably let it get to about one o’clock, two o’clock and I let it swing just a little bit, kind of have gotten fish on the swing in the winter. John (25m 7s): And then after that I just put it back up and I start short obviously. And I work my way out. I’m not gonna cast across the river on my first jet. Right. Dave (25m 16s): How many feet, if you had a good water in front of you, how far away from you would you be casting? John (25m 21s): I would start right in front of me, like yeah, 10 feet, like yeah, 10 feet right in front of me and then work to 15 and then 20 and then work my way out. You know, I have caught fish right at my feet before. Dave (25m 34s): Right, okay. And you, and that’s why the indicator is pretty nice, right? Because it, it suspends the flies so you have weight, you know, if they’re getting down then you can just watch that indicator and it, it allows you to, like you said, make that big mend. Then they sink down. What is the weight, how are you getting ’em down? Are these like tungsten flies? Yeah, John (25m 54s): I use, I use beads on my, on my jake foot. Yeah. Dave (25m 57s): Yeah. So no split shot or anything? Just stunk beads. Yeah. Okay, gotcha. Okay. Yeah. And you’re, and you’re getting it down there and then as you’re drifting it, you were mentioned kinda 10 to, you know, 1:00 PM something like that or you know, in that range. Yeah, but I John (26m 10s): Mean, if you can get farther down, if you’re getting a good drift, you know, sometimes I’ll let it go down even farther. But you know, when you’re fishing straight down from you, it can be hard to set the hook ’cause the fish is facing you. I always tell people you wanna, especially like all my clients, you know, you got, if we’re in the boat, if we’re wade fishing anything you wanna set the hook except for a dry fly, then you wanna go straight up. But if you’re nipping, you wanna set the hook the way the water’s flowing, you want to go with the water. ’cause the fish is always, 90% of the time gonna be facing upstream when it eats your flies. You know, so you wanna pull that hook back into his face. You don’t want to pull upstream and pull it out of his mouth. Dave (26m 48s): Yep. Love that. Yeah. Set the hook the way the water’s flowing. So, and you typically set the hook. Where would your rod tip? Would it be lower or higher? Does that matter? John (26m 56s): I, you know, at an angle, you know, not straight up but not to the side, you know, just like at that perfect angle, like right in between there. Dave (27m 4s): Yeah, right in between. Okay. That’s awesome. So, so that’s another good tip. So setting the, the hook is big and then, and on the indicator you pretty much are just watching the indicator and as soon as that you see something that changes you, you’re setting the hook. Yeah. John (27m 17s): You know, if you’re, if you’re taking the bottom too much, that’s why I like the indicator too ’cause it’s very adjustable and if you’re taking the bottom too much, you know, you want your flies to drift just above the bottom. You don’t want ’em to be tick, tick, tick ’cause it does make noise and stuff. And when metal hits rocks, you know, I feel like that does scare away fish. So I always, you know, I don’t like to take bottom ever. I like to be just above. Dave (27m 39s): Yep. And how do you find that? Is that just a trial and error? Yeah, like if you didn’t know it. Yeah, John (27m 44s): If You don’t know the river, it’s just gonna be a trial and error. But if you know your pools and the flows and stuff like that, it can be, it can be pretty easy to just slap your leader and your rig together and you know, get out there and adjust it once or twice and be good to go. Dave (27m 59s): Okay, nice. So that is a little bit on your setup for fishing, you know, winter midges, you know, what are, as you get in, you said April things start getting what’s going on in April. Is that just the weather is changing typically and getting nicer out there, but talk about the transition from the winter into more of that spring kind of range? John (28m 16s): Yeah, so we’ll start, we’ll sometimes April can be pretty cold and we can still have snow. But typically like anytime, like toward the end of the month, even if it’s a cold winter, it can be, it will start getting those 50 degree days and then you know, the Quill Gordons and you get Hendricks ends and even some cat, even the midges will start hatching too. You’ll see them on the water. But typically your fishing for dry flies would be during the warmest part of the day. And, but then it opens up the morning and the evening more in the morning for the nim thing because those nims get active during the morning. They start moving to where they will, they want to hatch, you know, if they’re in the riffles they’re gonna move to the pools and stuff like that. John (28m 58s): And you know, that’s where the fish will start moving around as well. They won’t be so holed up in their winter lives. Dave (29m 4s): Right, right, right. Okay. And what are people, is there a hatch or a time of year that people are really, you’re hearing more people wanting to come, you know, to the Catskills for or a river, what would be the kind of the top river do you think you hear most requests for? John (29m 19s): That’s tough ’cause it’s like, it’s very based on the time of year, but it really starts with the Hendrickson hatch. Yeah. You know, Hendrickson. Yeah. There’s been times where I’ve been on the Willowy mock and it’s a literally a blanket hatch. Like you can cast your fly out there and you would not know which, which one is yours, you know, and the fish won’t. And it’s crazy ’cause the fish aren’t even eating them. You know, there could be a hundred thousand floating down the river and Right. You know, the fish will eat a Ann over the a hundred thousand hendricksons floating past them. Right. You know? Yeah. Dave (29m 51s): And the Hendrick, so that, that is, and what is that hedge typically? When does that usually start? John (29m 55s): So that’s usually in like April, depending, like last year we had a warm spring and stuff. We were seeing Quill Gordon’s in February, which was crazy. So like, and most of the hatches happened two weeks early last year. But with it being so cold this winter, if it stays like this and we get a cooler spring, I’d expect stuff to be more on time this year. Sometime in April. I can’t give you an exact week or date just based on the variables. But sometime in April, this is when the Hendrick sense will start. Dave (30m 24s): Okay. Well let’s, let’s take it to, let’s say somebody was calling Right now. They hadn’t ever been to the Catskills, they want to fish it. What are you, you know, if they don’t know anything about it, what, what are you telling them? Let’s just say I’m looking at, at doing a trip. What, what would you tell me? Or what questions would you ask? John (30m 39s): So, well, I’m gonna say, you know, like, are you looking for a half day or a full day? Yeah, Dave (30m 44s): Yeah. Let’s say we’re working for, let’s just say we’re looking for more of a, a few days. We’re gonna be out there for over like two or three days over the week. John (30m 53s): Okay. Over the week. Yeah. So I’m gonna tell you, I’m gonna tell you to come in late May. Dave (30m 58s): Okay. John (30m 59s): Because like late May, early June, there’s this week I call, I like to call it bug week. Yeah. And there’s just, there’s just like, everything’s hatching. You have all your big bugs, you have your blue Seds, your March Browns green, Drakes ISOs are starting. And it could just be a ton of fun, you know, just on big dries at, at big heads. You know, most of the fish are looking up and they’re eager to eat. It’s, it can be a blast all day long. Dave (31m 29s): Wow. That’s awesome. Yeah. Bug week. That’s perfect right there. So if John (31m 32s): You’re into dry fly fishing that Yeah. Dave (31m 34s): Dry fly, John (31m 34s): That would be the best time. Dave (31m 35s): Yeah, that’s right. We are, yeah, let’s, let’s say dry. So, so late May, early June. And hey, so let’s take it there. A typical, I know there’s lots of variation, but in your typical year, what might that look like? Are you getting started early then? Is it, is the heat is starting to hit then or is that a little bit later? John (31m 51s): It could be, it could be pretty warm around them. But like last year it was, it was pretty perfect. You know, it was like late last week of May, first week of June and you know, we had our cool mornings still and we had the warmer, the warmer afternoons to bring the hashes out and it, it was some great fishing I caught, I caught a lot of very nice fish in that last time last year. And my clients also put some great fish in the boat on the maid stem. I had a first time client out in the boat and they were two veterans and he put a 22 inch brown trout in the boat on a march ground Dave (32m 28s): On the surface? John (32m 29s): Yep. On the surface. On a march ground. Dave (32m 32s): And was this while you were drifting down the river? John (32m 34s): Yeah, we were on the main stem. Dave (32m 35s): The main stem, Delaware. And where does the main stem, Delaware. Where, where would you be without giving any secrets? I’m not sure if there’s any secrets out out there, but where would somebody be floating? You know, like what, what’s the range? Is there a town nearby? What would be the closest town? John (32m 48s): The mainstem really it starts in Hancock, New York. Yeah. So that’s where the East branch and the West branch meet. Okay. And then that right there, it kind of marks the start of the national park. Oh, okay. The upper, the upper Delaware Scenic and Recreational River. So it’s like a national park for like 60 miles down the river goes through Cal Coon, goes through Damascus all the way down to Port Durvis and stuff like that. But we typically, we typically fish the upper part, you know, down to Damascus for trout and stuff like that Dave (33m 20s): Down to Damascus. John (33m 21s): Yeah. And then, you know, once it gets hotter in the summer and stuff, there’s a lot of small mouth in the river that you can even get stripers walleye. You know, I’ve caught, I caught a pick roll on the main stem in in December. One year. Huh? Dave (33m 33s): A pick roll? John (33m 34s): Yeah, a pick roll. Dave (33m 36s): Wow. Fishing for trout. John (33m 37s): Fishing for trout. There Dave (33m 39s): You go. That’s pretty funny. Ice and, well John (33m 41s): I had just gotten a new boat. I was more floating down the river just to float down the river. But you know, we were throwing streamers for fun. Dave (33m 47s): Gotcha. And so the Delaware kind of from, yeah, from Hancock to Damascus, it kind of splits Pennsylvania and New York. Is that what it’s doing for the most part? John (33m 56s): Yeah, so it almost starts like right past hail et bridge where it becomes the pa New York border. So the west branch will be the pa New York border for a while and then till it gets down to the Delaware mainstem where the east branch comes in then, then the main stem is the border pretty much all the way down. Dave (34m 16s): Oh, okay. I see. Gotcha. And that’s the big water, so, so for the most part you’re floating from Hancock down with that. That’s, is that the main area you’re using your drift boat in? John (34m 25s): Yeah, I mean, well if the flows are good on the west branch, we’ll float the west branch. You know, if the east branch is tougher to float with drift boats just because of its size and the typical flows we have on it during the summer it can be pretty low in the riffles and stuff like that. Hard to, hard to get through. But in the spring, the east branch is very floatable. The west branch is usually floatable year round, except for Right now obviously. ’cause probably most of it’s frozen. But yeah, usually, usually the west branch and the mainstem are pretty floatable year round for bass trout. Dave (34m 58s): Oh right. John (34m 58s): Stuff like that. I know people on the lower Delaware do walleye in the early summer too. We get a lot of shad in the mainstem. Dave (35m 6s): Oh, shad, right? John (35m 7s): Yeah. A lot of shad. And it’s funny too ’cause it’ll come up and eat a dry fly. Dave (35m 11s): No kidding. Yeah. John (35m 13s): Wow. Dave (35m 14s): Yeah. So you got, yeah, you have a mixture. It’s a Delaware right? It’s, it, it’s a huge river that flows through all the way. I mean, I’m not sure how many, how many miles, but Right. All the way out to the, to the ocean. Yeah. John (35m 25s): I mean, I don’t want to be wrong, but I’d guess like 150 or more miles. You know, it’s a long river. Dave (35m 32s): Yeah. And is it a big river up near Hancock where it comes together, the confluence? Is that, how big is that? Or like width wise, would you say? John (35m 41s): I could, I’d say like right where it comes together, probably like 50, 60, maybe 70 yards, you Dave (35m 48s): Knows. Oh, 70 yards. Yeah. Yeah. So John (35m 49s): Yeah, it’s pretty wide. Like the first, the first hole, we call it Bard Parker or Junction Pool. And it’s a deep pool. It’s, it could be 15, 20 feet deep and you know, it’s probably 200, 300 yards long. It’s pretty, it’s a pretty long pool. Most of the pools and on the main stem are like that. It’ll be a very long deep pool. And then you’ll get to a riffle section or a little braid section and then it’ll just be ahead to a long deep pool again. And you have that pretty much the whole way down. Dave (36m 23s): Oh, it is. So not, not a lot of riffles, just all lots of pools. Good pool habitat. John (36m 27s): Yeah. Yeah. But the, the riffles can be, some of the riffles are fairly long and you have a good run right before the pool and those are very, very good spots to fish during the summer. Dave (36m 37s): Okay. Yeah. And, and are you seeing more drift boats out there? Or is that always, have there always been boats out there floating? John (36m 44s): There’s always been boats out there. I’d, I’d say last year though, the main sim got pretty warm and it was, it was tough to fish for trout. So the main sim got pretty con, or not the main sim. The west branch got pretty congested for a little while. But you know, everyone out there is pretty nice. You know, we all for for the most part know each other and we’re all respectful. We give each other space and you know, we all have a good time out there, you know. Right, Dave (37m 9s): Right. Yeah. No reason to to battle it out right. With the other anglers. Yeah. John (37m 14s): Yeah. No, I have no problems with anyone out there. 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It’s time to experience eastern Idaho for yourself and support this podcast at the same time. So that’s kinda some of the Delaware. And then if you’re doing a walk and Wade, where are some of those rivers you guys are hitting more? More of? John (38m 21s): So more of the walk And Wades will, so like the Beaver Kill and the Will of Ock, we’ll do a ton of that in the spring. Mm. But once the water gets warmer, we’ll walk and wait on the East Branch a lot. The West Branch even not so much the main stem because it’s just such a big river. I have done it a few times just for clients that wanted to go weed fish in the main stem. But you know, it’s a, it’s a big river. It’s tough to wade it, you know? Right. Dave (38m 48s): Not easy. What is the, the Beaver Kill versus the Willowy mock? Are they similar at all or a lot different? John (38m 54s): So they’re similar to each other in the fact that they’re free stones, meaning that they flow outta the mountains based on rainfall and stuff like that. The Willowy Muck is a bit smaller in size and has less, I’d say less water. But they’re both great rivers. They’re both like similar structured rivers, you know, as in riffs and pools and stuff like that. The Upper beaver coal can be a ton of fun to fish. Like behind the Roscoe motel and up to the bridge and stuff like that. You have some chances to get some pretty decent sized fish too, out of some pretty small water, you know, ’cause all of it connects to the Delaware and some of the stuff I’ve read about how the trout in the Delaware migrate is pretty fascinating. John (39m 38s): You know, how far they travel to spawn and you know, sometimes they’ll find a fish in the beaver kill and then they’ll find it in the east branch later on. It’s pretty cool how far they go and stuff like that. So Dave (39m 50s): These are the brown tr and rainbows. John (39m 52s): Yeah, the rainbows travel really far. You know, like during the spring and summer you’ll catch big rainbows in the main stem in the East Branch and then up on the upper Beaver hill, like for example at the Beaver Hill State Campground or Covered Bridge, you know, during the fall and stuff you might not see one rainbow, but then you, you go fishing there in the spring and you’re catching these 1820 inch rainbows ’cause they ran all the way up there to Spawn. Dave (40m 18s): Yep. Right. Wow. And you mentioned, you mentioned the the Bug week. So would the Willowy Mock be a river that you could hit in late May, early June into June that, would that be Bug week there as well? John (40m 28s): Yeah, so with the Tailwaters it’s a little different too because of the temperature of the water. Like it’s not like the Free Stones, the Free Stones will be a lot more fluctuation in temperature. So there’s, it is still bug week. You know, you might not get, it might be more localized to like areas like you might get good March Browns on like the lower half of the Willow E Ock and stuff like that. And in different parts of the Beaver Kill, but it might not be like as prolific as the lower half of the West Branch might see a crazy hatch for like a few days in a row. And then on the Wellow e mock you might get one or two good days of a hatch and then it might peter out pretty quickly. Dave (41m 9s): Right. Pretty quick. Okay. And so, so if we were coming there in late May, early June, let’s just say the last week in May, what would be the first, if we had a few days to fish, would we mix it up on a, a little bit or start on the Tailwater? What would be a good program to do there? John (41m 25s): So first off, I would go to Trout Town and ask Joe what’s been happening in the area and stuff like that. Because you know, know it’s different every year, but if I’m just basing it on, last year the West Branch was pretty insane for the hatches and the upper Mainstone was, was on fire. I had just started doing my float trips last year. So I was on the boat a ton in the beginning of the year. But the times I did Fish, the Beaver Kill and the Willowy Mock, it was pretty good fishing. But the Tailwaters is always my favorite spot. Dave (41m 59s): Okay. So the tail water’s just more, more kind of reliable, like you said, that you know, they’re more consistent for the most part. Yeah. Okay. So it’d be good to start off in, I could see a maybe day one you’re starting off in the West branch, maybe float and you, and you would be floating it. You could float the West branch. John (42m 16s): Yeah, you can float the West branch. Personally, if I’m fishing by myself, I like waiting, you know? Yeah. Just ’cause you know, you really get to pick apart the pool. You know, you float through a pool in 30 minutes and then You don’t see it again. But if you’re standing at a pool for an hour and a half, two hours, you might see that big fish pop his head up or, or something happening. You’re like, that’s where I want to be. So personally, I like waiting more, but it is fun to hop in the boat and go down the river with friends and you know, catch a few fish here and there and you know, just have a good time. But if I’m by myself, Dave (42m 47s): You’re waiting. You’re waiting. Yeah. How do you choose between, you know, whether you’re gonna be on the boat that day or foot? Does it just depend on who the client is? John (42m 55s): Yeah, it depends on what the clients wanna do. Sometimes if the water’s really high and stuff like that and they have a wade trip booked, you know, I’ll just compensate and be like, Hey listen, same price you want to go out on the boat today, I think it’d be a bit better and we’ll do that, you know? Dave (43m 11s): Yep. Right. So mix it up depending on the, on the conditions there. Okay. And then the be, so the Willow Ock is a, is that now, is that a trip to the East branch? John (43m 19s): That’s a tributary to the Beaver Hill. So there’s actually another junction pool and it’s in Roscoe and that’s a famous pool they call it. It’s famous for the two-headed trout. ’cause they say, they say a trout traveled all the way up to beaver kill and couldn’t decide whether to go up the beaver kill or up the willow eima. So it grew two heads. Dave (43m 39s): Right. And so that’s the beaver kill. So the beaver kill and then that flows into what? What does the beaver kill flow into? John (43m 45s): The beaver kill flows into the east branch down at what we call jaws. And it, it has a beautiful eagle viewing site there with a nice gazebo and there’s always eagles up in the trees there. Dave (43m 55s): Oh, okay. Yeah. Gotcha. So Willowy mock into, and then at Roscoe, that’s is at the beaver kill flowing through there. John (44m 2s): Yeah, that’s the beaver kill and the willowy mock meeting. Dave (44m 4s): Oh, meeting, okay, gotcha. John (44m 5s): Yeah, right in Roscoe. And then that forms the lower beaver kill, which what we call it. And then that flows to the east branch and that forms the Lower East branch. And that goes to the Mainstone. Dave (44m 15s): Oh yeah, that’s right. And then it’s okay. Right. So there’s a lot. So you mentioned, so we talked the east branch, the west branch, the Willowy mock, the Beaver Kill. Any other streams we’re missing that you’re hitting throughout the year here? John (44m 26s): So, kind of a secret of mine, but I do love, do love the never sink in Dave (44m 30s): The winter. Oh, the never sink. Yeah. You John (44m 32s): Know, it is a tailwater, it is, you know, regulated like the east branch and the West branch. And I just love it in the winter. It’s just so pretty. You know, the big rivers are pretty, but you know, you have some of those trees that come over the river and you get the snow and most of the time you’re the only guy on the river. And it’s just so peaceful. You know, I like fishing in the small streams in the winter. The free stones can be really tough in the winter, don’t get me wrong. You can catch fish on them and stuff like that. But never, ING’s always been a special river to me. My dad always used to take me there. We used to go to the gorge and and stuff like that. So I just love being down in there. Dave (45m 8s): Okay. Never sink. And the never sink. Where is that, how is that one connected to these other ones we’ve been talking about? John (45m 13s): So it’s connected because it’s part of the, the aqueduct system for all the reservoirs. So all the water goes through these long tubes that go down to New York City for the drinking water and everything. So it’s classified as a tail water and it does flow. The never sink flows in, flows into the Delaware River down by Port Jervis. So there are wild trout running up into the, the never sink. And it’s always been labeled as a great trout stream. That’s actually, if I am correct, I think that’s where the first dryly was ever had. Oh really? Was ever used. Was on the Never Sink. Yeah, Dave (45m 50s): Right. There you go. John (45m 51s): It’s a famous Dryly River. In recent years it’s been labeled as tough to catch fish on dryly in that river, just for the reason everyone goes there and uses them and stuff like that. I will say I’ve had more luck using Nisson than Evers sink, than dry flies, but I have caught some pretty decent fish on Dries as well. Dave (46m 9s): Okay. All right. So yeah, the Never Sink definitely would be good. Another big one to add to the list. And is that far, are all these within striking distance of like if, let’s just say, you know, we were coming there to stay, where would be a good place that you would like location to stay as far as Town, city, stuff like that. John (46m 26s): So, you know, Roscoe is pretty much right in the middle, you know? Yeah. Rosco, butternut Grove is the campground. Me and Joe stay at as seasonals during the year and it, it’s about six miles more toward the Delaware. So I love that campground because it’s literally right in the middle of everything. You can get up to the Delaware and to the West Branch in 30 minutes. You can get to the Never Sink in 30 minutes. And then every, the East branch, the Willowy Lock and the Beaver Hill are all within 15 minutes. You know, it’s, it’s really a great spot to camp. You know, they have cabins, RVs, and all that good stuff. Bring your, yeah, bring your camper tent camp, whatever you need. Yep. So I love staying there, just ’cause it’s so easy to get everywhere from there. Dave (47m 9s): Yeah. Butternut. Okay. That’s awesome. Butternut Grove. Yeah, right off the highway, so that’s easy. Yeah. John (47m 13s): Right off the highway, store your boat there, all that good stuff. Dave (47m 17s): And it’s on the Beaverkill. John (47m 18s): Yeah, right on The Beaver Kill. And I will say that’s a great pool right behind the campground in the spring. Dave (47m 24s): That’s another bonus. John (47m 25s): Yeah. Get some great rainbows there in the spring. Dave (47m 27s): Okay. So yeah, another bonus. So you’re right there. That would would be amazing to camp right on The Beaver Kill is access pretty good out there as far as like, where would people find out how to, where they could go walk and wait and stuff like that? John (47m 38s): So, you know, old 17 is a, the old highway that used to go along all the rivers and stuff like that. And if you just drive along that, you’ll see the big brown state fishing signs Okay. That you can park at. And you’ll see the parking lot. You, you really can’t miss it. There are a few spots like on the Upper East Branch where it’s just a pull off. You’re not gonna see a sign, but it’s an obvious pull off. Pull off there, you’ll find the, the state sign that where for the footpath, for the anglers. And then usually as long as you’re in the river, you’re good. As long as you’re within that high water mark, you can pretty much walk wherever you want. There are a few spots where there is private water, like the Upper Beaver kill above the 2 0 6 bridge. John (48m 21s): Most of it’s private for clubs and stuff like that. But like on the Delaware system and like that, most of it is accessible if you’re willing to walk. Dave (48m 29s): It is. Okay. Well that’s great. That’s great to hear. Okay. So lots of opportunities there. Well, let’s, let’s start to take it outta here. We have a little segment, this is kind of our brand shout out segment. And I’m sure you probably had some good brands being at the show recently that you connected with. But today this is presented by Pesca on the fly. They have this unique fly rod, which is a six piece, one of their rods, the six piece fly rod. It was interesting because when we talked to them, it sounds amazing because it’s a little bit shorter than the four piece. So it’s, you can throw it in your backpack like a normal small backpack. It’ll fit in there. And I just heard that Canada, I guess is restricting travel. So now when you go there, you can’t carry on a rod. It’s, you know what I mean, it’s gotta be small enough. Dave (49m 10s): So those old four pieces now have to be check bag, check baggage. So that’s a good tip on. So we’re gonna give a shout out to PEs on the fly today. But for you, what is your, maybe talk about that. What are some of the brands you’re using? Do you have kind of rod reel, other gear brands that you kinda really love, you wanna give a shout out to? John (49m 28s): So I will say this last year I’ve picked up some Douglas rods. Oh yeah. They’re a New York company. Sure. And I’m very happy with them. Great. Action. Their warranty is second to none. You know, I had a client pretty much just accidentally step on a rod, break it right in half. I had a new piece on my doorstep in three days. Oh wow. And I will say, no offense to any other companies, but that’s, I’ve never had that before. It’s always taken way longer than that. So Douglas is, you know, I’ll definitely be getting more rods from them and recommending and using them in the future. Another one, you know, the hero sunglasses, love them. I used, I’ve been using Walmart shades for the last few years and then yeah. John (50m 10s): Finally stepped it up. Got them. And as some, the difference in impeccable, you know? Yeah. Like as a guide, you know, you’re telling your clients there’s a fish right there. And they got their Walmart shas on, they have no idea where the fish is. Right. And I’m like, it’s swimming right there, you know? Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. But was a great brand and I love their sunglasses. Dave (50m 30s): That’s perfect. Perfect. Yeah. But, and are you more of a glasses or plastic lens? John (50m 35s): So I got the first pair, I was being kind of cheap, got the plastic lenses, and then I was at this West branch like show for next year gonna all the companies come together and they show you what they’re presenting for next year. And I tried some glass lenses out and, you know, it was kind of, it looked better, you know, the colors were better and everything. So I got a pair of glass lenses and I hate to say I haven’t put the plastic ones back on since Dave (51m 1s): No. Yeah. So you like the Yeah, they’re a little, so I John (51m 3s): Would, yeah, I’d say the, I’d say the glass is worth the extra money. Dave (51m 7s): Yeah. And it’s, and it’s not that much heavier, right? No, John (51m 10s): It’s not at all heavier. Yeah. And they, and the great part is that they don’t scratch my plastic ones. You know, even though I have the lanyard thing on ’em, I drop ’em, you know, stick ’em in my fly bag, you know, after I get off the boat and stuff like that. And they get all scratched up. The glass ones have done the same thing and they’re still perfect. I, I’ve had no problems. Dave (51m 27s): Yeah. That’s perfect. Good. Okay. So we got our, our couple of gear shouts out there. And did you see at the show when you were in Edison, did you see a ton of, I guess everybody was there. Was that, was that a pretty good show? John (51m 37s): Oh yeah, it was great. You know, we saw, we saw Kevin from Douglas. That was awesome talking to him. Billy from Behe, he is a great guy. I love fishing with him. Joe came down to the show on Friday and said hi to everyone. It’s always cool seeing him there. You know, it’s always fun talking to everyone at the shows. I like connecting with people, you know, trying to get people up to the Catskills. You know, I wouldn’t, I can’t believe, you know, it’s two hours away from Edison. Wow. A lot of people come to the show from Edison. It’s like two and a half hours. And not many people have been up to the Catskills or even Roscoe or Wow, that’s amazing. Amazing. Or even heard about it. And you know, it’s the birthplace of American fly fishing. Dave (52m 13s): Right. So John (52m 14s): I really, you know, I’ve, I love pushing. I’ve, and I’m thinking about doing another show in March in Lancaster, pa so, you know, I really want to get people up to the cascos or at least inform ’em about the history. You know, just come up and check it out. It’s, it’s a great place. It’s awesome fishing, you know, it’s so beautiful. Dave (52m 31s): Yeah. That is amazing. But John (52m 33s): Yeah, it’s this, and I will say I’m a, I love birds, you know, especially birds are prey. And it’s in New York and the Catskills, I’m pretty sure it’s like, it has the second most bald eagles in the US Dave (52m 43s): Oh, it does. John (52m 43s): I’m pretty sure. Yeah. Yeah. Other than Alaska. Dave (52m 46s): Sure. Birds of prey. So you see lots of, and lots of eagles and other birds of prey. Yeah. John (52m 51s): Eagles, hawks. You know, we’ve even seen some golden eagles this last year. Yeah. Which is surprising. ’cause they’re starting to make a comeback, which is great to see. And you know, right. You’re out at night. If we’re out mousing, you know, you’ll hear the owls hooting in the woods and stuff. And that’s just a surreal experience. It’s a lot of fun. Dave (53m 7s): Do you consider yourself a, like a birder? I John (53m 10s): Don’t know. I like ’em. I don’t, yeah. You know, Dave (53m 13s): You don’t have all the birding books and like going get nerding out on it, like fully? No, John (53m 17s): Not really. Nerding out. I got, I got the, the bug books. I kind of, I nerded out on the bugs when I was learning about all the hatches and stuff like that. Oh yeah. You know, the birds, I have the bird books. I just like seeing them, seeing them in the wild. And, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s great. Dave (53m 30s): Yeah. Are you able to, I, I was listening to somebody recently as like a friend of a friend that they were saying they were looking for a specific owl. And I can’t remember the species, but he hadn’t found one in years, like six years. And then he just happened to find this owl in a neighborhood. It was like literally in like a cul-de-sac. And, and the guy was out there with his binoculars being like, oh my God. That’s the first time he’s ever seen the owl. Are you, is that something where you see, you’re seeing new species you don’t know of and you know, out there? Or is it typical you John (53m 56s): Seen? Yeah, sometimes. We saw a Green Heron last year, and I’ve never seen, oh yeah. Green. I never seen any of those on the Delaware. Might have just missed ’em. But last year I started to notice ’em and then the Golden Eagles. That was something that I have not seen in the Catskills until like these last two years. Well, the two years ago I saw one, and then this last year I, I had three or four or five sightings and it was pretty cool. Dave (54m 19s): That is cool. Yeah. It’s the more you hear about New York and it is surprising that more of those people down in New Jersey aren’t making it up there because it seems like the more you hear about it, you know, the bigger it gets. Right. Because there’s, it’s such a big state and there’s so much to do and, and you know, New York City, of course is the, is totally the opposite it feels like than the most of the state. You know what I mean? Yeah. Most of the state is this other, is what you’re talking about. Right. These amazing national parks and all that. John (54m 47s): I used to live in Cincinnati, Ohio. My parents were divorced and that’s where I went to high school and stuff like that. Before I moved back out to New York. I still tied and fished out there and everything. But you know, I was telling everyone, I was like, I gotta move back to New York and Oh, New York City, New York City. I’m like, no, not New York City. I’m right. New York City. And you know, it’s crazy how many people think New York is just New York City. Not many people know about New York state and upstate and all the great fishing steelhead salmon. Right. You can do whatever you want here. Yeah. And it’s amazing, you know, there’s so many great hiking trails, camping spots. It’s upstate New York is like Yep. It’s awesome. Dave (55m 26s): It’s got it all. And the weather is not too bad either. Right. You get some, some hot summers and depending on the, or maybe some cold years, but overall Right. But like you’re saying, springtime through the fall is probably pretty spectacular. Right. Perfect. John (55m 39s): Oh, it’s beautiful. Yeah. ’cause you’re up in the mountains too. So the summers, you know, we might get like one week where it’s hot and humid, but other than that you get the nice cool nights. You get the, the nice mornings and typically it’s just really comfortable. You know, it’s a great, it’s a great place. Dave (55m 55s): Yeah. And you’re not too far. The other cool thing is, is you’re not too far from the Great Lakes. I mean, we’ve talked a lot about Lake Ontario, of course. Lake Erie, south Shore of, of Lake Erie. I mean, you could, if you wanted to drive out there and hit some, some of that. Oh, all steelhead. Yeah. John (56m 8s): You’re like two and a half, three hours from the Salmon River. And then you have all the Western trips to like Ontario. You got the Finger Lakes for Landlock Atlantics and all that good stuff. Right. You know, and that’s just the east or western side in New York, you know. Oh yeah. Haven’t even gotten into the Adirondacks. You know, like that’s just another beast on its own with all the hiking and fishing and, and everything up there. Dave (56m 32s): And where are the Adirondacks from? Roscoe. John (56m 34s): So it would be Northeast. Dave (56m 36s): Okay. Yeah. Northeast. So yeah. And the Adirondacks are in New York as well. Yep. John (56m 41s): It like great sacking dog, a lake and the Os River. Dave (56m 44s): Oh, in the Sable. Sure, John (56m 45s): Sure. Yeah. And you know all, all those That’s right. The like 46 high peaks and stuff like that. Yep. I haven’t even, I’ve explored the Adirondacks a little bit, but I’d like to get up there more and do stuff, you know, ’cause it’s, that’s Dave (56m 60s): Really cool. John (57m 1s): I’ve only done the west western part of New York so far. Yeah. Now. Yeah. That’s where my dad always took me. That’s where I’ve kind of stuck. Yeah. The Western. Yeah. I’d like to branch out and get out some, see some new places. Dave (57m 11s): Sure. Have you looked at thought about heading up into Canada at all? With, to the, you know, I mean, you could drive up to, I mean, it’s pretty far, but you’ve got some stuff up there, right? Atlantic salmon and some other brook trout stuff like that. John (57m 23s): Oh yeah. Labrador. Yeah. Labrador Brook trout. That’s a dream of mine. Yeah. My big dream is to get out to Iceland. Some, some though. Oh, I, yeah. I would love to go to Iceland for those sea rum, brown trout. The arctic char. Dave (57m 35s): Yeah. And the arctic char. Yeah. John (57m 36s): And that’s a big dream of mine. But yeah, I do. I’d love to go to Canada, British Columbia. Yeah. Is a bucket list. You know, south America, right. I like to travel, you know, I like to see new places. Dave (57m 47s): There you go. Yeah, there’s a ton. It’s, it’s cool to have a cool home, a home state because like you said, you got lots of stuff just where you are. But yeah, there’s lots out there to do as well. Well, let’s, let’s take it out here just with a quick little, a little three tips segment. So we talked a lot about, you know, that area. Let’s just go back to the winter. Let’s say somebody is there, it’s late February, maybe it’s early March, you know, it’s not, it’s warmed up a little bit and there’s phish. What would be three tips you would give somebody, maybe who’s, who’s new or who’s been struggling to catch fish out there in the winter? What, what would you be telling them? John (58m 18s): You know, play with your in depth. You know, if you, if you’re not taking bottom, make it a little deeper. Three inches, three inches, three inches. You know, get it right near the bottom. If you don’t get a fish on that first cast through the, the perfect first cast, give it 10 more, you know, like, fish that area, you know, give it the time of day. You know, don’t just keep walking. One cast, keep walking. Really, really fish it because that fish, you know, he could be swimming around real slow, coming up to a spot for some reason. He might not see it or might not want it on the first two or three passes. You know, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve casted. 10, 13 times in the same spot in 14 calf. Bam. John (58m 58s): I get a nice fish. There you go. You know? And then just keep playing with your fly. Don’t be scared to try an attractor fly, you know, all way. And I’d say go small and go small. You small flies there. Dave (59m 10s): So small being, like you said, don’t mess with. So we’re talking 18, 16 or nine 16. Small enough. John (59m 16s): Yeah, I’ll use a 16 on J Cook. 16 would probably be the smallest. I’ll go once we start getting into April and stuff, I’ll start using larger nymphs. ’cause then the larger bugs are getting ready to start making their migrations and getting ready to start hatching. So I’ll start upping my nymph size, and then once we get into the heat of the summer, I’ll start going back down again. Dave (59m 35s): Then back down. Okay. Yeah, those are all awesome tips. Perfect. So, so good. Well, I’ve got a, just a couple random ones and then we’ll, we’ll, we’ll take it outta here. So always love to get a little random mix of music from this, but what is your, do, are you on the, when you’re on the road traveling around with your new boat, are you listening to more podcasts or music when you’re on the road? John (59m 56s): If it’s a long road trip, I like podcasts. If I’m just like running up to Oscar or something, people might not know the radio station, but 1 0 1 0.5. Okay. WPDH, it’s like a classic rock. You know, they have a funny talk show in the morning. Dave (1h 0m 10s): Is it W-W-P-D-H? John (1h 0m 12s): Yeah. Dave (1h 0m 13s): Okay, perfect. John (1h 0m 14s): That’s just what I listen to on the way up the road. That’s what me and my dad always listen to. Dave (1h 0m 18s): So you got some morning, this is great. So you got some morning talk radio going and, and I, I love that. What, what is the, what are the DJ or what is the, what are they doing there? Who are these guys? Oh, John (1h 0m 27s): Girls man. They’re, they’re funny. I don’t know how to explain it, you know? Yeah. It’s the stuff they talk about’s good. They give you the information for like, the area, like Lo la Hudson Valley and stuff like that, where I’m from. And then, you know, they have people call in and it’s just funny the people that call in, you know, it’s just, just keeps me engaged while I’m on the road. Dave (1h 0m 46s): That’s awesome. Have you ever called in on any of that stuff? John (1h 0m 48s): No. No, no. No. That’s not that Dave (1h 0m 51s): Kind of guy. Not your style. Yeah. Yeah. This John (1h 0m 52s): Is the first podcast I’ve ever done, you know? Yeah. Well you’re of branching out Right now. Dave (1h 0m 56s): Totally. Yeah. You’re you’re doing it now. This is, this is bigger than calling in. You know, I, I think this is like, I’m not sure how many people W pH gets out to, but I’m guessing it’s probably a lot because it’s, this is out New York and New York Station. Yeah, John (1h 1m 9s): It’s been, and it’s been around forever. You know, I’ve been listening to it with my dad since I was a, since I can remember, you know, maybe not the same host, but they’ve been there forever and love Dave (1h 1m 19s): It. Love. Well, in this day and age, the nice thing is, I think you can pretty much get any station from anywhere now. So we will, we’ll look up some 1 0, 1 0.5 and classic rock. What, what is your, if you had to pick one group person, you know, band song from classic rock, what would that be? John (1h 1m 35s): Oh man, that’s, that’s tough. Dave (1h 1m 37s): Yeah. John (1h 1m 37s): You know, that is tough. Dave (1h 1m 40s): Is are you more like seventies, eighties, I guess eighties now is classic rock, right? John (1h 1m 44s): Yeah, I guess now, but I’m pretty much, IM like all over the board, you know, I like Tom Petty, ac b, C? Yeah. Okay. You know Leonard Skynyrd. Oh, Dave (1h 1m 53s): Skynyrd, yeah. John (1h 1m 53s): Stuff like that. But then I also listen to the, my girlfriend likes the new stuff. So when she’s in the car, if she plays her Dave (1h 1m 60s): Playlist, what would be a new, what would be something new? John (1h 2m 3s): She likes Mexican music. Oh, Dave (1h 2m 5s): Really? Okay. So John (1h 2m 6s): I don’t know any, like specific artists per se. Sure. But I do go to concerts with her, take her Oh, cool. And stuff. There Dave (1h 2m 14s): You go. John (1h 2m 15s): So Dave (1h 2m 15s): Yeah. Yeah, Mexican. I, I definitely love that. I just don’t know of any band. The cool thing is we can go to Spotify Right now and probably put in Mexican music or whatever and get some tunes, so. Oh yeah. So good. So we’ll do, and what about a podcast? What do you listen to? What would be one podcast you might listen to? Oh, John (1h 2m 30s): I like your guys’ podcast. Oh, nice swing. I’ve listened, I listened to that quite a bit. You know, I listen just on the road, you know, throwing a murder podcast or some Okay. True crime stuff or Sure, true crime. Just a random, you know, podcast about cars or something like that. You know, just something to listen to random. Dave (1h 2m 49s): Oh, right. Yeah. Cars, like, like building or working on cars, stuff like that. John (1h 2m 53s): Yeah. You know, just, or like, you know, just a random like deep sea fishing podcast, you know? Sure. Just like, you know, anything to keep the mind moving, learn some stuff. Yeah, Dave (1h 3m 3s): Yeah. Yeah. Good. Nice. Well, this has been good, John. I think this has been a lot of fun. I think we could probably leave it there today and we will be in touch for sure, because the, the plan is to get out in that part of the world. I’ve been close in New York, but haven’t ever actually trout fished out there, so I’m, I’m hoping to, to put that together in the next year or so. But yeah, thanks for all your time today. This has been a lot of fun. And we’ll send everybody out to, I guess, like you said, John’s Catskill Guide service on Instagram. Is that the best place to send people? Yeah. John (1h 3m 32s): Or Facebook. Dave (1h 3m 34s): Or Facebook. Okay. John (1h 3m 35s): Yep, that’d be perfect. Dave (1h 3m 36s): Okay. And then we’ll also put a link out to trout town flies.com with Joe’s shop and the place you’re working for there. But, but yeah, thanks again. This has been amazing and really appreciate you shedding all your kind of wisdom and insight on, on the Catskills, and we’ll be in touch soon. Yeah, John (1h 3m 50s): No problem. Thank you. We hope to see you out there. Dave (1h 3m 53s): All right. Your call to action today is check in with John. You can do that Right now on Instagram, John’s Catskills Guide Service, Catskills Guide Service, or@trouttownflies.com. Check in with John and let him know you heard this podcast. And if you wanna get a truck check in with him Right now. That is, sounds like an amazing place to start. Alright, quick thing, two things before we get outta here. Just wanna remind you, Togiak is going strong, Togiak Week, Togiak Fishing Alaska. If you’re interested in this trip, check in with me dave@wetlyswing.com and put Togiak in the subject line. I’ll let you know if we have any availability. We have a few spots we should still have left as of this episode. And let me know, this is gonna be chasing Chinook and Salmon up in Alaska at this amazing lodge, TOK River Lodge. Dave (1h 4m 37s): Okay. And the next episode you also don’t wanna miss this week is round two with Tommy Lynch. This is on Wednesday this week we’re gonna be digging back into streamer days Streamer episode number two with Tommy Lynch. Don’t miss that one. Click subscribe so you get updated when that episode goes live in two days from Right now if you’re listening to this one live. Alright, I gotta get on, we got a Stillwater episode coming up soon, so I’m gonna go work on that one. But appreciate you for stopping in today and checking out the show. Hope you have a great morning, great afternoon, or great evening, wherever you are in the world, and we’ll talk to you soon. 3 (1h 5m 9s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly, swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing.com.