752 | Fly Fishing Patagonia Argentina with Ron Sorensen – Brown Trout, Limay River, Chocolate Lab Expeditions

Dave (2s): Today we’re heading to a magical land where you can swing for large migratory brown trout, hit some of those amazing hatches, and see some big game that are unique to the countryside. This place has been coined the Montana of 60 years ago, and today you’re going to get a glimpse into Northern Patagonia. So you know why this should be one of your bucket list trips. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. How’s it going? I’m Dave host of the We Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid, grew up around a little fly shop and created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts out there. Dave (42s): Ron Sorenson Chocolate Lab expeditions founder and fly fishing nerd takes us into his lodge on the Lee Ma River and some of the similarities between Montana and fly fishing outta Montana and guiding where he does his other half of the year. You’re gonna find out how to skate flies out of a drift boat for big brown trouts. We’re gonna find out how to hit some of the biggest hatches in this part of the world, and we’re also gonna find out what the twitch and sit is all about. Plus, we’re gonna hear how these 80 acre ranches started out as big sheep farms and now are meccas of fly fishing. We’re gonna get into it all today, including the Chewbacca Fly. Why you should be thinking about the Chewbacca fly fishing. Dave (1m 23s): This one, This year, this half streamer, half surface fly. All right, it’s all coming today. Here he is, Ron Sorenson from clea fly fishing.com. How you doing, Ron? Ron (1m 36s): I’m doing great, Dave. How are you today? Dave (1m 38s): Great, great. Yeah, I’m glad you put some time together today to put this together. We’re gonna talk about a couple of places that are always hot topics, Montana, Patagonia. We’ve definitely had some episodes on, it’s been a little while for Patagonia at least, but we’re gonna talk about all that. We’re gonna get into some brown trout fishing and whatever else we come up with today. But I first wanna start with a little on your background. I know we talked off air about Randall Kaufman, his name came up. You have some connection. I know Mike Lawson as well. But take us back real quick on fly fishing. Have you been doing this for a while or are you, you know, are you a little later to the game? Ron (2m 9s): No, I actually, I grew up in Portland, Oregon and fly fishing with my grandfather, actually. So around four or five years old, they would take me down to the Matius River, which you probably have a whole dear to your heart. And that’s how I spent most of my summers growing up. Fly Fish, the Crooked River, and not, not so much the Deschutes from my dad, but a lot on the Crooked River until I got older. So that’s Dave (2m 35s): Nice. That’s it. Ron (2m 36s): That was my youth. Dave (2m 37s): That was your youth? Ron (2m 38s): Yeah. Dave (2m 39s): What was the, I I always loved the Crooked River because it’s, you know, one of those local streams for Oregon. What years, do you remember, were you fishing the Crooked River for many, many years or what do you remember the year roughly? Ron (2m 49s): Oh, I, I probably fished it. So, let’s see, I was born in 71, so I probably fished it from 76 through 88, probably all are there. Dave (2m 58s): Okay. This is perfect. Do you remember that pretty well, the Crooked River back then? Ron (3m 2s): I do, yeah. I mean, we, we always went to the same little stretch that I remember. I mean, we are, I’d have to try to find it again on a map. Yeah, we, my dad bait fished and so we’d actually go and collect what he called perrywinkles. So we go collect case cadi and then that, that really was actually my first interdiction. And then later that sort of transfused into, into nim fishing later about weed, fish, ultralight tip it, you know, our line, and then run a split shot and then bounce those, the periwinkles down the river. And so then later that sort of, you know, like that translated over into, into nim fishing when nim fishing wasn’t, you know, initially when I was growing up with my grandfather, you know, he’d fish, you know, those bucktails and swing flies and they were all sort of, you know, approximations of salmon fly patterns or golden stone patterns, you know, so I remember when Pinch on Indicators first came out in the Cam Sherman fly shop probably in like 86, you know? Ron (4m 1s): Right. We were figuring out there they were, but nobody really knew how to use them. ’cause videos weren’t a thing yet. Dave (4m 7s): That’s great. And do you remember on the Craig River, were you guys getting some pretty large fish out there? What was the size look like back then in the eighties? Ron (4m 15s): I’d say the, the average fish were, you know, probably 12 to 16, 17 inches were probably the average. And then, you know, occasionally we’d, we’d find, you know, crayfish and then like my dad would fish with crayfish tails. And I think, you know, we, I probably over those long weekends that we go with my dad, you know, maybe we get two or three that were in that 20, you know, that were on 20 inch fish. Yeah. Dave (4m 40s): And then when did you get into like, the connection with Randall Kaufman and kind of start getting into more of the fly fishing end of it, the industry end? Ron (4m 48s): So, you know, with my grandfather, we always, you know, in the Matius we were purely fly fishing. And when my dad, it was always a mix. So we’d go to Crane Prairie Reservoir, and my dad just loved to fish. It didn’t matter in what, you know, in what sort of state it came in. He loved to fish. So we’d, you know, fly fish if that was what the rules were. And, and bait fish if that was, you know, acceptable. But I was 16 when we had actually had a, we had a, a school project where you were supposed to donate, you know, a couple weeks working in a local business. And so my mom wanted me to go down to the, you know, donate my time at the bank. And then when I figured out a bunch of my buddies were gonna go ski with, you know, up at ski patrol in Mount Hood, I, I figured that I should come up, come up with my own plan. Ron (5m 37s): So my mom wasn’t home one day when I came back from school, so I walked down to Randall’s door and I knocked on his door and, and offered to work for free at his fly shop for two weeks. Oh, wow. So that’s, that’s how I got my start. And Randall was of course, like, well, for sure, you know, free labor. That’s awesome. Yeah, so that’s how I, I got started was working at a shop on the sort of the school project and, and we hit it off. He was, he was fantastic, you know, to, you know, I’d never met anybody that was, you know, into it, like, to that level obviously. Right. And my grandfather liked to do it, but it was, it was as much as filling up the quota on, as, you know, at that point the mats was really a put and take fishery. Right. So, you know, my grandfather, the, the good, you know, the good accountant, you know, CPA, that he was, he’d go down and he’d, he’d fill in his, you know, his roster of, of hatchery fish for the day. Ron (6m 28s): And then that was it, you know. And so where I was, you know, it took me till I was about 13, I was like, well, what, you know, what if we just kept four and then we could, you know, just keep fishing for the rest of the day And we didn’t, we wouldn’t have to stop, you know, which, you know, grandpa that didn’t compute, but Randall of course understood all that, that you didn’t actually need to keep, keep any, and you could just fish all day. So that was really when, you know, things started to evolve and, you know, at a, a lightning, you know, fast pace, so to speak. So that, that was, that was really a fruitful relationship. And, And it was Randall that then, you know, wrote me my first recommendation and, you know, helped me get my first guide job in Montana, which was in 91. Dave (7m 12s): And when you were at Randall’s, I mean, that was a pretty, that was kinda one of the big places out. Did, was it kind of popping then? Was, was there a lot of, a lot of business, a lot of traffic? It seems like that was kind of the, the heyday of Randall, at least somewhere in there, right? A lot of travel. They were a big travel group and all that. Ron (7m 28s): Oh, absolutely. So at, at that timeframe in the mid, you know, I probably came in sometime in that, I guess it would be the mid eighties, so that it was, it probably was just at its peak. I mean, that was the, the catalog that, or Dan Bailey’s that you, you know, that had arrived at your house and you’d see, you know, all the, you know, all their fly tying products were in that catalog. I mean, that was sort of the, the end and the heyday of that timeframe before the internet came along. So it was, you know, it was probably Kaufman Stream born and Dame Bailey’s were probably the, at least the major players in, in my orbit at that time for sure. Yeah. So they had a whole library of all these VHS, you know, cassettes. Ron (8m 9s): And so at the end of the day, Randall, anyones that weren’t rented out, I could take home for the night and then bring ’em back in the morning. And so then that was, you know, sort of my first exposure to, you know, Lonnie Waller and like all these, all the, you know, Jack Dennis and his fly tying, you know, series. And, and that was really what expanded my, you know, exposure to the whole fly fishing world. Dave (8m 32s): Right. Yeah. That’s great. Yeah. And we just had, just had Jack Dennis on the show again here recently. It was good to catch up with him. He is obviously, yeah. Out in Jackson, Jackson Hole, kind of a, a different area, but still obviously out west. No, this is great. Well, let’s fast forward a little bit. So you, you get into the guiding eventually. Maybe let’s just jump right into the, is it the Le May River Ranch that you have out in Patagonia? Ron (8m 55s): May, right? Correct. LeMay, yeah. Dave (8m 57s): Le May, Le May River. So I, I’m not familiar, obviously I’m not familiar with the, the ranch there. Maybe talk about that. Fast forward us through until how you come to be running, you know, down in Patagonia in the, in the ranch there. Ron (9m 8s): Well, so after my first, you know, so it’s a continuation in some regards, right. So, I mean, I, I make it out to Montana. Randall, you know, said, you know, if you cut your teeth out there one season, then I’ll call up people that I know. And he actually know, he knew Jack Dennis and Mike Lawson very well, because that’s how he spent his summers when he was young. He, he tie all winter long, make money, and then he’d come out, you know, out to Yellowstone Park in order to fish his brains out all summer. And so he knew all the, like, Jack Dennis, Gary LaFontaine, Mike Lawson, they were doing that traveling like road show at that point. That’s right. And so that’s how Randall type, Dave (9m 46s): That was the Randall, right. Randall was with, was it Qua Feather Merchants back in the day where they were doing the Traveling Road show selling their flies? Ron (9m 53s): Yeah. That, and then, but then Jack Dennis, Gary LaFontaine and Mike Lawson, they, that, that trio, they were traveling together as well, like on a road circuit. And so, you know, all those things sort of tied together. So I ended up being able to work for Mike Lawson, thanks to Randall Kaufman. He put together, he basically called Mike Lawson up and, you know, I caught him in a, you know, in, in a building year maybe or something. And I was able to slip into Mike Lawson’s team. ’cause I, considering my guide history, I certainly had no business being there. But, and then my first training day with Mike Lawson, I actually rode Lawson and Gary LaFontaine down the river. Wow. So that was like a, an amazing first day out on the Henry’s fork for me. Ron (10m 36s): But to fast forward, because of my involvement at Henry’s Fork Anglers and the crossroads at that place is in, in the, in the fly fishing world, I ended up having a job offer to go down and guide in Patagonia. And so went down to Patagonia and guided there in the winters. I honestly, I didn’t envision, you know, staying in college or a graduate program, but then being able to go to Patagonia definitely trumped any other future life plans. I thought I had made my, for myself and met, you know, met all kinds of great people. And then one of the people that I met, my first, my very first year in, in Patagonia was a guy named Javier Ky, who was a, an aquatic biologist. Ron (11m 16s): And he was the one that actually introduced me to the, the le May the very first time that I went out and got to know it. ’cause he was working for the state and they were doing quarterly impact studies on the, on the river because the dams are privately held. And then part of the, part of the contract that the dam has with the province was to, was to do this quarterly impact study inversely, I think it was just the way that the province was able to fund most of the, you know, carry most of the, they passed off most of the, the costs, you know, for their aquatic bi biologist team. They just pass it off to the dam, you know, by slipping into this contract or what have you. So, but anyways, the, I was, I was able to go and because I was sort of, you know, I loved all the, you know, the insects and all the science side of, of fly fishing, you know, Javier and I instantly bonded because he was one of the few people that actually, you know, knew, you know, the science behind all these rivers. Ron (12m 13s): And so, you know, I was constantly bombarding him with all these questions like, you know, well, where are the, well, where are the big stone flies? Or are there any rivers with stone flies? I haven’t seen any salmon flies or golden stones. And so I could bounce all these questions off heavier. And you know, of course he, you know, he was sort of a fly fishing geek like, like I was. And so we, you know, got off on all this, you know, sharing all this information. And, and so he drug me out on sort of one of these like, fact finding missions to the LeMay. That was the first time I was introduced to the river. Dave (12m 44s): Yeah, that’s it. And, and then eventually you, and you have a lodge now that you, you own out there. Ron (12m 50s): Yeah, correct. So I mean, we, the first trip that I spent out there was just, you know, for me it was sort of earth shattering the nature of the river, you know? So I mean, some of the data that we were getting in was, you know, collecting these fish and we were, you know, weighing, measuring and then taking scale samples off these fish. And, you know, I learned actually so much on that first trip. I mean, I’d never, I’d never done that kind of, you know, sort of work before. And, you know, the first fish he looked at, he was like, oh yeah, it’s a 17 inch fish. It’s about, you know, it’s about three years old, which for me was, you know, hard to believe. And he was like, well, yeah, you can just take a scale sample and put it under a microscope and then you can tell exactly how many winters they’ve gone through. Ron (13m 32s): Which I had never seen the scale under a microscope before. So that was, you know, I thought that was just incredibly fascinating, you know, and, And it turned out to be absolutely true. You know, every dark line was a winter. Dave (13m 44s): Are those fish down there? They’re brown trout, right? We’re talking brown trouts, but are the brown trout similar? Is the fishing similar to Montana? What, what’s that like when you compare the two? I’m sure you’ve probably done that before. You could do that pretty easily. Ron (13m 56s): Yeah, so I mean, they’re, they’re exactly, you know, similar. I mean, they’re trout are not native to anywhere south of the equator. So they were all introduced, but we’re approximately equal distance from the equator in Patagonia compared to Montana, Idaho, Colorado, or what have you. So it’s in that like ideal trout band, you know, as far as distance from the equator. And, you know, in a lot of regards, you know, so we have, you know, Cadi and Mayflies and all the, you know, essential food groups were naturally occurring in Patagonia before the trout were introduced. So I mean, that they were just sort of missing that one, you know, that one key element in the rivers was the trout themselves. So they were introduced from, from northern, you know, the, from northern hemisphere, the, the eggs were brought down and introduced into Patagonia. Ron (14m 45s): So Dave (14m 45s): When was that? Do you know roughly when they were first introduced there? Ron (14m 48s): Yeah, it was between 1905 and 1911, at least on the Argentine side in Patagonia. That’s when there was an active sort of breeding and introduction program. And after that it was essentially, I wouldn’t say that abandoned, but it was sort of completed in that, you know, in a very short little window. But since originally there were no dams, the fish were introduced into a couple key rivers, and then from there they were able just to expand within the given niche and, and fill, you know, naturally sort of expand within these river systems and fill all the available niches, you know, from there until, you know, Joe Brooks and all those guys showed up in the late fifties, early sixties. Ron (15m 30s): I mean, they essentially had, you know, what, 30, 40 years to expand within these virgin systems and come into their own, so to speak. Dave (15m 39s): Right, right. And is that how it happened? I’ve heard, I’ve heard some stories around in the US where people like that, Mike laws, well not necessarily Mike Lawson, but some other people around, you know, around famous people back in those days where they planted, you know, trout like in the White River, and now these, you have these maas of trout in the white. Is that kind of how it worked down there, where you had these Americans or other people going down and just like building this program? Ron (16m 1s): Well, they definitely built a program, but it was an Argentine, and you’d have to reference back to Bill Leach’s book. ’cause he, he researched it pretty heavily. But it was, it was a private, a private party got the authorization from the Argentine government. But I understand that it was an Argentine himself that, that spearheaded the project, got the, okay. Went and collected the, you know, or asked, and they, and they were able to secure eggs out of the McLeod River in California. And then they got brook trout eggs from the Northeast and then brown trout eggs from Europe. And then, you know, shipped all these eggs down to Argentina and then had ’em on in refrigerated cattle cars, essentially, you know, that took ’em out to Patagonia. Ron (16m 47s): And then they created brood stock in, you know, like nine, you know, in these ponds and lakes in 1905. And then they were actively introducing, you know, the fish for about like 10 years essentially, and that, that, or eight to 10 years. And then that was about it. And so then all these sort of famous Americans or what have you, like Billy p and Joe Brooks, they came down in the late fifties, early sixties, but they were invited by Argentines, like Bebe and Reina and these famous, you know, the first wave of, of Argentine fly fishers that invited them down to help expose the, the Argentine fly fishery. 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Yeah. It’s at the same from the equator. Similar. What, what else are, you know, when you, again, let’s say on that comparison, Montana versus, you know, Argentina, for those that haven’t been down there, what, what are, are there more similarities or more differences when you talk about the, you know, the fishing and kind of the area and stuff like that? Ron (18m 39s): No, I, I think that they’re very similar. I mean, I think it’s, it’s easy if you were, you know, if you parachuted outta the plane and had no idea what zip code you were in or, or country code, I mean, you’d be hard pressed to define that, you know, you weren’t in parts of Wyoming or Montana or, you know, or, or Colorado for example. I mean, it’s really hard to, to tell you instantly feel, you know, at home. And then over time you, you know, you started to start noticing differences in the floor, the fauna, what have you. But it’s, it’s very much what fishing in the American West would’ve been like 50, 60 years ago Dave (19m 17s): Because of less people, even though Montana is not a very heavily, well, it’s busier now, but is that the biggest thing, just the less people there? Ron (19m 24s): Exactly. Yeah. So I mean the, the trout, except for their naivety, you know, they behave exactly like they would in Idaho, Montana, or Wyoming. You know, the difference is just fishing pressure, which I think, you know, in talking with people in Montana, he is like, well, you know, why would I go all the way down there to, to trout fish? And it is, you know, because the essential part or the essential part, the experience of fly fishing is, you know, sort of stumbling around on a, on a mountain river with nobody else around. And, and I mean, I sort of have to go back to when I was 12, 13 years old to remember what that was like. Right. Ron (20m 4s): You know, anymore, you know, sadly enough, Montana’s not, you know, not the same, you know, if you try to fish in Montana around the Madison or Missouri in June and July, it’s, it’s not the same experience that it used to be. You know, the fisheries are still, you know, in some regards, some of the rivers have been able to hold up, like the Missouri has been able to hold up. It’s still a completely viable ecosystem, and others have not. You know, and that’s, that’s the sort of the, you know, the biological reality of these rivers. I mean, you know, like the big holes gotten a lot of, you know, press and, you know. Dave (20m 39s): Yeah. That, that’s what I was kind of thinking because we just had the big hole river foundation on, we talked about some of like what they’re doing to measure the, the changes and, and kind of stay on top of that or figure it out. So have you seen, I mean, again, they don’t quite know what’s going on the, you know, water quality, things like that, but have you seen the same, similar, not similar, but you know, anything, any changes down there in Patagonia? Ron (21m 1s): In Patagonia? No. I mean, you do see how fish adapt over time, the pressure that’s, that’s undeniable. Dave (21m 8s): Yeah. I’m just thinking more like what I’m going to is the fact that it seems like in the US and the episodes we’ve had all over the country, you know, climate change and water increasing water temperature seems to be a common thing. You’re not seeing that at all down there. Oh, Ron (21m 20s): For sure. Yeah. I mean, for as far as, you know, water’s getting warmer faster over the course of, of a season and when do our fall bugs start, you know, I mean, usually cross. Dave (21m 32s): Right. You have seen some changes. Yep. Ron (21m 33s): Yeah, that’s undeniable. I mean, you know, but I think, I think what’s interesting is, is you’re seeing, you know, those effects without the, you know, without the effects of, you know, maybe development, right? On those one thing, on those rivers thing. Yeah. So, you know, you, you can kind of separate, you know, what’s essentially still pristine fisheries, right? With the effect of climate change like that you can see because you can, you can see certain elements in the environment. So for example, like, I mean, it, it sounds cra a little bit crazy, but you can actually time hatches to when wild flowers bloom because you, you have the same effects of, you know, of heat and sunlight or what drive those flowers to bloom. Ron (22m 19s): And it, those are the same effects that like solar units that then would push your first like little stones to hatch in the spring. And then you need certain amount of frosts and water temperatures to drop in the fall to kick off your, your mahogany, you know, your mahogany may flies to hatch in the fall. I mean, so you see those cause and effects. And in Argentina and Patagonia you’re seeing it without like dewatering and, and you know, potential for all that ag. You know, I think, you know, I don’t know if you know fertilizers, I mean I, we’ve had clients from Ireland that talk about, you know, the farms are using so many fertilizers, how that affects, you know, fisheries. Ron (23m 2s): So what you’re, you’re seeing is the effect of climate change without a lot of the other human variables, you know, affecting the river as well. So it’s a little bit pure in that sense. So climate change is certainly happening and you see it in, in Patagonia for sure. Dave (23m 18s): Yeah. You see it there. It’s just, yeah, that makes sense. Just less of the other variables down there because it’s more wild. It’s Ron (23m 24s): Exactly. I mean, and so that’s, I think that’s part of, you know, that being a scientist, I think that’s part of what, you know, is so hard on rivers like the Deschutes or the big hole to untangle all those variables, right? So Dave (23m 37s): Yeah. ’cause it’s not just one thing, right? It, it’s, it’s a bunch of things and that’s what makes it challenging. But yeah, it was, it was interesting talking to the big hole foundation because they were just, it feels like they’re trying to get a handle of it, you know, and then they’re doing some good research, so that’s good. But yeah. Let’s talk about the, basically the, the ranch, the lodge you have there now, where is it exactly? Where would people be flying into to get down there? Ron (23m 59s): Well, you still fly into Chapo airport, which is just outside of San Martin. The lodge and the, and the river are about equid distance actually from either San Martin Che or the provincial capital of nail Ken. But because our operations base, all our guides live in San Martin, you know, that’s where my wife’s from. That’s where our house is, you know, still logistically it’s easier to tie in, you know, picking people up and dropping ’em off. ’cause we’re, we’re still fishing, you know, sort of multiple rivers in a given sort of trip. So we’re not just fishing lema, although that’s one element of, of the trip. And more and more people are sort of, you know, so electing to, you know, fish more days on the Li Ma or fish exclusively on the Li Ma. Ron (24m 45s): So the, the liai actually, if you look at the, the watershed comes out from Veloce out of a lake called N Wapi. And it heads, you know, east and then it joins up with another major tributary called the rum Quora. And then that heads into a whole series of these reservoirs. And then we’re fishing. It’s a, it’s a tailwater out from beneath one of these dams. But unlike the American West, which are predominantly all tailwaters, this is really the only tailwater and in like the whole area that we’re, that we fish. So. Dave (25m 18s): Right. And are these brown, mostly brown trout down here as far as the species? And are these not sea run browns? Ron (25m 25s): Correct. These are not sea run browns, but actually, you know, if you look at, you know, sort of cross section of the trout population in the river, you, it’s about 60, 70% rainbows and then 30%, 40, 30% browns in the river. And so what you have is you have sort of these resident, you know, fish that live in the river year round, and then you have these migratory browns that come up out of the reservoir, out out of the Choon reservoir and they move up into the river, you know, sort of periodically or seasonally. But it’s, you know, initially when I first went with Javier in, in the, in about 2001 is when we went out and were doing this sort of fact finding, you know, impact studies, you know, the li may as a fishery wasn’t unknown or what, what they call the LeMay me or the middle LeMay. Ron (26m 18s): It wasn’t unknown as a fishery, but all the argentines, you know, the sort of hardcore, you know, Argentine fly fishing society, I mean they all went in May because it was known as a, as a fall run of these monster brown trout. But what came to pass was in truth, they move up into the river much earlier in the than in the season than that. And that, you know, that’s sort of what we discovered. And we also sort of discovered a, a completely viable resident fishery in and of itself. So you have a very layered fishery. So it’s, imagine sort of like the Missouri River, if you had a run of steelhead except, you know, in this case you have a run of these migratory brown trout that they’re not coming from the ocean. Ron (27m 4s): They’re coming out of, you know, a reservoir that’s, you know, the size of Rhode Island essentially. Dave (27m 9s): Right. Yeah. And I think the Missouri kind of has some of that too. Doesn’t some of those fish that are going up into the lake and kinda rearing and then eating, growing and then coming back down. Well, there’s a lot of stuff going on there right, in the Missouri, Ron (27m 21s): Correct. Yeah. But, and there, as opposed to the part that I fish, which is, you know, near Wolf Creek Craig down to Cascade, that’s more up in the land of giants. And so that’s, that’s what you, you have there, you have a very, very short piece of river and then you have these migratory or these, this influx of these lake fish that are moving in and out of the river system, you know, over the course of the season. Right. But it’s not necessarily just a, a spawning run. So that’s, that’s what the liai was assumed to be initially. And then we, we found that in truth, that was much more dynamic than that. Dave (27m 55s): Gotcha. What, what is, if somebody was wanting to plan a trip down there to the lei, what is the, on timing, what, when are the, the good best times to, when are you seeing most of your people coming down? Ron (28m 6s): Well, so, I mean, a lot of our travel down south is more dictated or guided by when people wanna be out of the US right? So January and February is super popular ’cause that’s just when they don’t want to be in Chicago or, you know, whereas, you know, the, the fishing season are, are hatches actually run from, you know, around the end of November through, you know, mid-January and then you come into sort of terrestrial time through, you know, say around the first, you know, cold snap in mid-March. So right about now and then the fall starts, our fall bugs start around, you know, maybe the end of March and then run all the way into May. Ron (28m 49s): But the, these migratory fish, which sort of overlap, I mean, that creates a whole nother variable in the fishery. So you have, you know, your, your resident fish are running anywhere from, you know, 14 to 23 inches. And then you have these resident, these migratory fish that are coming up out of the reservoir. So, you know, Javier, my, you know, my aquatic biologist buddy who actually now guides for us, you know, these, these reservoir fish were getting to be 23 inches in, in three to four years. And they come up into the river, you know, anytime the first one starts trickling in, in December, usually through, there’s, throughout the system by mid-January. Ron (29m 31s): And then they’re in the system from, you know, mid-January all the way through May. And you have these sort of waves of fish that come in every time. ’cause it’s just like the White River in Arkansas. So you mentioned that the white earlier, it’s, the flows on the Le Ma are not based on ag, they’re based on electric, you know, hydro power. So you’ll have these massive fluctuations all the time. But from the inception of the river, from the minute they built the dam, that’s how flows were, were managed. And so the whole fishery generated, you know, or originated with that as a quantifier or what have you. So just like, you know, you talk to like the old boy, I actually went to college in, in St. Ron (30m 15s): Louis. So I, I fished the white, not very much, but I fished the white some, you know, and the old boys, they go out when it bumps. I mean they, you know, they go bounce, you know, crowd crud adds, you know, off the bottom in the light, you know, when the river bumps, that’s the time to get those big grounds. And so completely contrary to, you know, anything that you would, you know, so like on the Missouri, if they bumped the water, you know, 150 CCFs, it’ll totally screw up the fishing for the rest of the day. Whereas on the liai, you know, it doesn’t follow any of the, you know, normal patterns of what we’re used to, or at least what I’m used to in Montana as far as flows. And, you know, fishing goes, maybe it’s a lot more akin to like Lee’s Ferry or the White River. Ron (30m 60s): So just because the river comes up three feet doesn’t necessarily mean a, you know, it’s a bad thing. It’s just chain is Dave (31m 6s): Just still fishing it. How do you fish when you’re fishing, when it bumps up? How are you guys fishing that, like, talk about that a little bit. Are you guys out there in boats or how, how are you doing it? I find the big fish. Ron (31m 16s): Yeah. So we’re in, we’re in drift boats. I had a, a fortunate opportunity in, in the early two thousands road drift boats at that point, wa were being produced in St. Anthony, Idaho. And in the early two thousands they were making, making sort of their, their, their presence felt in the fly fishing world. And they were getting, you know, people like Lynn Sessions and, and the guides on the Henry’s Fork. They were getting those guides into their boats. And so right around those early two thousands is when Roe came out with their first drift boat, which was a, a skiff, a low sided boat. And then when I saw that, I was like, boy, that is the boat from Patagonia, you know, where we don’t have crazy whitewater, you know, our sort of the natural element we’re fighting against is the wind. Ron (32m 3s): And so we were actually able to make a deal with road drift boats and got one of their molds down into Argentina and started making row drift boats in the early two thousands. So we’re rowing row drift boats down in Argentina ’cause row basically facilitated and allowed us to build their boats in Argentina. So Dave (32m 23s): That’s cool. Yeah. Do you see, is it mostly down there, mostly row drift boats or do you see other drift boats too? Ron (32m 29s): There’s some other drift boats, but there’ve been boats that, you know, some somebody imported and then they splashed it and you know, sort of stole the model and, but ro is the only sort of legitimate authorized model of drift boat being, being used in, in Patagonia. Dave (32m 47s): Yeah. That’s the only one. Yeah, this is great. All right. I love a little drift boat doc. So, so you’re out there in the drift boats and, and you said again, they’re out there, these big fish are out throughout the whole season, kind of on and off wind. If you had to pick one time, you know, would you say is, it doesn’t matter whether it’s November or January or in March as far as when you wanna find those big fish Ron (33m 6s): For the biggest fish? I mean, we’ve had like peak weeks that will run anytime from mid-January through through May. I mean it’s, you know, as far as the big fish are going, you have to think about it much more like, you know, steelheading, I mean, you’re not gonna go get 2030 of these, you know, 23 to over 30 inch fish. You, you can have, you know, big fish number days on the Le Mi, but they’re not gonna be these migratory fish. So I mean, I think how dynamic the fishing experience is is part of what makes it such an interesting river. So you can go from like five x and fishing rusty spinners and, you know, finding cods of rising fish to, you know, fishing swung flies on zero x in within the given hour in the given day. Ron (33m 56s): So I think that’s what makes it such an intriguing fly fishing experience is that it’s not, you know, I love to steal that fish and I will go and swing a fly all day, you know, and I have, so for, you know, in the Clearwater and the salmon and up in BC and in Oregon, the Deschutes. But you know, it’s really fun to sort of hybrid that experience with a sort of true classic trout, you know, experience. So we’ve had peak days, you know, and oftentimes it’s right after one, you know, when the river bumps, it’ll turn on those fish in the, you know, within that first 40 minutes. And then those big bumps will also I think bring fish up outta the reservoir into the river. Ron (34m 39s): So not only do you turn on, you know, just like, you know, you need to rain on those coastal rivers in Oregon to, you know, turn those steelhead on or move them from one pool to the next and sort of re-energize them. You also get an influx of fresh fish into the river like you would on a coastal stream. So it’s, you know, these are all sort of working theories that, you know, apply. But again, you’re, you’re sort of looking at, you know, at these migratory fish and then also how it applies to how like trout behave. But you know, again, steelhead are migratory trout, so Dave (35m 15s): Yeah, they’re trout and, and is that how you fish the, those, those migratory you’re you swinging just like you would for steelhead? Exactly, Ron (35m 21s): Yeah. And so, I mean, think summer steelhead, right? Except these are brown trout, but they behave very, Dave (35m 29s): Or even Atlantic salmon, right? ’cause that’s probably the closer species to the or I guess, right? Ron (35m 33s): Absolutely. So I mean, you can, again, these fisher, when we first showed up, I mean we essentially during the summer months, my partner Diego Geyser, who I guided with, and then ultimately Javier started guiding with us in like 2006, 2007. I mean, we were applying essentially trout techniques, you know, while you were drifting down the river. You know, the classic way to fish the le May was sort of step swing, step swing. But now we’re applying, you know, drift boat, you know, now we’re in a drift boat, which nobody was using on the river at that time. We were using suddenly now, okay, well how do you, how do you copy, you know, step swing out of a drift boat and then yet we have to get between from one run to the next. Ron (36m 20s): So we might as well be drifting a fly from one drift to, you know, from one run to the next. So then what we’ll fish for these rainbows in between these big brown trout spots and then all your sort of, your techniques sort of blend together, right? So while you’re in between, you know, sort of these holding spots for these big migratory fish, you know, you’re fishing rainbows and then you end up as a bycatch randomly and accidentally catching these big browns. So then you figure out that they will react to trout techniques, standard trout techniques. So we were raising migratory browns on a twitch and sit, you know, like you would twitch a hopper or twitch a big terrestrial. Ron (37m 3s): We were catching, suddenly we were getting these 24, 27 inch browns to rise up to these drives. And so then we started mixing all these techniques and then given certain conditions, it’ll all work for both fish. So it’s really right. Interesting. Dave (37m 20s): So you guys aren’t necessarily doing the, the get in like the steelhead and getting a run and spend an hour stepping, swinging through a run? You’re not really doing that? Ron (37m 28s): Not as much because what we found was, was during the bright sun of the day, and a lot of this we were, we were staying in this local town and then, you know, you’d, you pay these local ranchers to come in to, you know, access the river. You’d put in, you’d pay this guy, you know, 15 bucks to drive in the car and, and you put in on one property and maybe take out on the same property or put in on the son’s property and take out on the dad’s property. But we couldn’t get in the river, it dawned. And so some of these, you know, we could catch those big browns in the heat of the day in the bright, you know, sun at one o’clock, two o’clock in the afternoon. But we were picking them up, you know, in these big drops and these deep runs that were like 20 to 30 feet deep. Ron (38m 13s): But you could do it during the day, but you couldn’t reach those spots. The majority of those spots you couldn’t reach on foot. And so most of our fishing was sort of, you know, and our tactics were, you know, out of the boat in deeper water. And what we have found in running the lodge and then being able to go to the river in steelhead type, you know, timeframes is that actually those big browns are coming out. And again, these are working theories that, you know, we certainly don’t have the, the final say or word on the river, but you know, the, it seems to be that they’re, those browns are coming out and foraging at night, and then if you’re there before first light, you know, you can actually jump ’em in water that’s less than a meter deep. Ron (38m 59s): Now you can actually walk and swing those, those runs with classic steelhead techniques, you know, at dawn and, and, and dusk timeframes. So. Dave (39m 10s): Gotcha. So that’s it. So the sun, yeah, so they are, so the sun, that’s cool. So you could swing, if you wanted to get out earlier late, you have probably a better chance ’cause they’re in little the shallower water. Ron (39m 20s): Exactly. Yeah. And then, so now with, you know, now with either a, you know, a single handed rod or a switch rod, now those fish are, you know, you can reach them in those low light situations. That’s what we’ve come to find. So I see. Dave (39m 36s): I mean, right. So there you go. Yeah, Ron (39m 37s): Most clients are still, you know, wanna have breakfast at eight and go out in the boat and not get up early and using a boat. They don’t have to, Dave (39m 45s): Right? They don’t have to. But you could, if you were a hardcore swinger, like spay, you wanted to like catch, you know, your thing was spay all around the world and you wanted to swing one up traditional style, you could do it there. Ron (39m 56s): Absolutely. Well, and what we ended up doing was we started using, and I, you know, because I’m a steel header, then I was applying these tactics and so we started using switch rods outta the boat. And so you can’t, you know, it’s, I’ve only been able to do it, or I’ve only seen it done once out of a drift boat where I had two guys using switch rods. But you can comfortably use a switch rod out of the front of the boat. And it’s really fun because if you think about it, and I’m, you know, I mean, while I’ve fished a spay rod since, I don’t know, maybe the late nineties, I’m, you know, I’m far from an expert, but you know, as you know, as you, as you wander down a run, you know, you’ll get little deeper pockets and shorter pockets, you know, and suddenly you’ll be within two steps, you’ll be a foot shallower deeper and then that changes your anchor, right? Ron (40m 46s): So, so outta the boat, your anchor and your distance from the surface of the water is constant. So then your anchor and your stroke is constant. So it’s actually, it’s quite easy out of the drift boat or outta these skiffs to, you know, do a snake roll or a, or a snap tee because your distance from the surface of the water is consistent throughout the whole day, right? So we weren’t teaching people to do that, but we were teaching lay people, you know, take a strip or two, do a big sloppy roll cast and then overhand cast it. And so that would allow even, you know, intermediate beginner anglers to consistently throw, maybe it’s just the head is, you know, maybe 40, 45, 50 feet line. Ron (41m 30s): But using the boat that was enough to cover the sweet spots and all these runs. And so initially we were using like, you know, six weight, you know, like 12, 11 foot switch rods. We were using that of the front of the boat just to help people cover water using, you know, using an overhand cast. And so that took a lot of the work out of covering water, you know, and what we found in the guide day was trying to balance out, you know, exposing essentially traditional trout fishermen to steelheading or steelhead techniques to cover these brown trout. So it was this whole hybridization of all these sort of techniques, right? Ron (42m 10s): That’s cool. Which was really, really fun inventing all this stuff, right? So, Dave (42m 13s): Right. And at the same time, you’re still getting those big, the hatches, right. In those times, which is kind of the what, March you said? February, March, April, Ron (42m 21s): Yeah. So in, in January we’re still getting cadu. It wasn’t until we were there from, you know, from November through December we started seeing all the mayfly hatches. And this all goes back to the first day that I was on the river with Javier. I was like, well, how are these fish getting to be 17 inches in three years? And he, and he handed me the keys to the kingdom the very first day. He was like, well, it’s all on catis and mayfly. Like, well, so there’s no mice, shrimp, or any of the, you know, power foods that we associate with tail waters, you know, like sow bugs or, or m mighty shrimp or lys and no, it’s all primarily, you know, cat and mayflies. Ron (43m 2s): Well, you know, by default all those bugs have to hatch. So, you know, we get March Browns in Cahills early in the season, November, December, and then the cat is start mid-December and it’ll run through January. And I mean, I remember, you know, what’s strange is, is those McLeod rainbows are so crummy, they’re a lot more like bonefish in color than say your Deschutes river red sides. And all of our trout in the American West have been hybridized. Like, so the matus is perfect, you know, so there’s probably, you know, if you look at, at those, at the genetics of the trout that are in the matatus today, you’ll see white tips on their, on their, you know, their fins and little, some of them will have little orange notches on their dorsal. Ron (43m 52s): Well, those are all, you know, harken back to those McLeod fish and then the standard, you know, the native Deschutes fish or those red sides. And that’s where you get, you know, those darker colors and those, you know, red cheeks. But the, you know, the native original, you know, strain that came outta the McLeod, those, they have very little pink, you know, they’re very crummy, you know, very little color to those fish. And so the, the rainbows that are in the, in the Levi are essentially, you know, a hundred percent pure genetics out of the, the cloud. And they have hardly any, you know, pink to them. So Right. Dave (44m 32s): The coloration. That’s interesting. Ron (44m 33s): Yeah. So the river is like New Zealand clear. I mean, at 15 feet you can see every single rock and pebble on the bottom of the river. And that’s why, you know, some of these skating floating line techniques works in these, you know, pools that are 20, 30 feet deep is ’cause the water’s so crystal clear. But when you’re floating down the river, you see hardly the only fish that you actually see are these monster brown trout. All the rainbows are, you know, all you can see is they’re shadows. You don’t actually see the fish initially. You think that there’s like no fish in the river ’cause you can’t see ’em. And how can I not see ’em when I can see every pebble? But then you get one of these hatches and suddenly there’s pods of tam 1520 fish, you know, feeding behind, you know, a willow and go, oh my god. Ron (45m 21s): Well there’s thousands of fish in here, you know? And true to any tail water, it has those kinds of trout concentrations Dave (45m 30s): On DeMar Lodge offers a world-class experience with one of the finest rainbow trout and brown trout fisheries in the world. They’re family owned and operated. Missouri River Lodge offers comfortable accommodations, delicious home cooked meals and personalized service that make you feel like family days on the water are capped off by appetizers, beverages, dinner and stories on the back deck and around the campfire. Book your stay for an unforgettable fly fishing adventure where memories are made and the fish stories are real. You can head over right now to wet fly swing.com/on DeMar, that’s O-N-D-E-M-A-R-K on DeMar right now to book your magical Missouri River trip. Dave (46m 12s): What was it before? If you go back before the rainbows were planted, what was the native species that were in there? Ron (46m 18s): You know, the largest fish were called are called perca, which are, they look like, you know, like a, a small mouth bass. Dave (46m 26s): Is that perca? Is that with a B or how do you spell that? Ron (46m 28s): With a p Perca. Dave (46m 30s): Oh, perca. Ron (46m 31s): Yeah. And the ENT final translate it to like, it’s a perch, but it has, you know, they don’t look anything like perch. They, they look, they look much, you know, a lot more like somewhere between a walleye and a and a and a small mouse bass Dave (46m 45s): On a bass. Right, right. Yeah. So do you guys still catch perk in there? Yeah. Ron (46m 49s): Yeah. And the, you know, I don’t know that the, the perca tend to like, you know, deep, slow pools, slow eddies, you know, they predate on the trout for sure, but they will, you will find them. I remember the very first, one of the first days I was floating the ura, which was one of the other, you know, rivers close to Barchi and SanMar, you know, one of the argentines we were floating behind as we scouted the river, like pointed out, you know, this Eddie. And there was a bunch of perca in there, you know, rising on, on may flies actually. And I spent, you know, maybe 15 minutes before, before I realized that we were throwing, you know, a non trout species and the Argentine thought it was really funny that he had, you know, waylayed us and diverted us throwing at these perca or what have you. Ron (47m 35s): But it was kind of funny leaf. Dave (47m 37s): God, that’s great. So, but the most of the fish you guys are catching are, are trout. You’re not catching a lot of perca? Ron (47m 42s): No, I mean, if you, if you threw thinking lines and streamers in the slowest, deepest pools, then, you know, then you’d catch perca and, and there’s still perca in all the, you know, in all the local rivers. But, you know, but they don’t live in the riffles and the, and the runs. They’re in the slowest, deepest pools as you know, the water that they prefer. And, and they do wet, they do better in the warmer water, like the cour and the illumine. Dave (48m 8s): Gotcha. Okay. So we’ve talked a little about, you know, on just the species, and again, the trip, it sounds like it’s pretty open depending on what you want to do. I mean, it, does it really matter, I guess, if you wanna hit a certain hatch or something? Do you find people are just coming whenever they have time off and, you know, hitting that area? Is there, you know, if we were planned a trip, what would you tell us? When would be a good time to start? Ron (48m 29s): Yeah, there thing to be two sort of avenues of how people plan their trips. And, and usually it’s either like, hey, this is, you know, this is the window I have, you know, that I’ve negotiated with my partner, my boss off, or when I can come down with my buddy or my wife, this is the timeframe that I have is one avenue, you know, and what’s the best fishing for these dates? Or, you know, I’d like to plan a eight to 10 day trip to Patagonia. When’s the best time to come? And then, you know, best time is quite relative to each individual person. And because these trips are all custom designed, then, you know, and we have access to actually like seven big ranches. Ron (49m 11s): So the, the Our Lodge on the Le May is on an 80,000 acre property where we’ve got, you know, over 30 miles of, you know, private access. And that’s really sort of the, the heart and the key of the beauty of these, you know, the trips that we’re putting together is, is being out on these monster, you know, big, you know, what used to be sheep, you know, and cattle ranches, you know, now converted into fishing properties. Dave (49m 36s): So that’s what they are now. They’re, they’re literally just fishing properties now. That’s the focus. Ron (49m 40s): Yeah. Originally, you know, in Patagonia, all these ranches really made money in wool and sheep. And then, you know, the wool market sort of crashed in the thirties and the forties. And Patagonia was, you know, quite a, a tough place to be a rancher until maybe the last 20 years where they could make money on some cattle. They’re not great cattle properties, but they could make money on cattle. And then if they were fortunate enough to have a great trout river flowing through ’em, then they made, you know, some money on, on trout and then, you know, and, and there’s some red stag hunting down there as well. Okay. Dave (50m 13s): Oh right. And there’s some hunting, so you get some hunters pride, a little, both guys come down there hunting and fishing on the same trip. Ron (50m 19s): Yeah. In March and April. You can do that on some properties. I mean, not, you know, not every property is a great hunting property. Not every great, you know, hunting property is a great fishing property, but there are, there are some overlaps for sure on some, on some of the properties, but a lot of it, you know, is you’re, your overtime is, we, we tend to get, people will come back year after year. I mean, most people, it’s like, you know, sort of a bucket list. You know, we, we need to go new New Zealand and Mongolian and, you know, we should go to Patagonia once. And I think that, you know, a lot of people are surprised just by the quality of the experience. And they, you know, we were probably at like 60, 65% return clientele because it surprises people, you know, just how special it is to fish Montana 60 years ago. Dave (51m 7s): Right. You know, that’s pretty much that, that’s what you’re, you’re providing, right. That’s kind of the big thing. Right. It’s less people, all the natural beauty. What, what about some of the animals out there? What, what are the, what are you seeing? Is there, are there many kind of, of the other animals that you wouldn’t see in Montana? Yeah, Ron (51m 22s): So the, you know, the native animals that, you know, that you would see on the, on the course of a, on the course of a trip are the kos, which is a type of llama actually. But it’s like a anaco is like an alpaca, but not, you know, not as heavy of a coat. They range, you know, in groups of 10 to 2030, you know, all over Patagonia. I mean, Patagonia is actually an area like the Rockies. I mean, it, it encompasses multiple, you know, essentially multiple states or provinces. And it actually goes between Argentina and Chile. You know, the most famous part is the, the part around the Andes, but the majority of it is wide open steps. Ron (52m 3s): Right. And that’s where the Kos really flourishes in big broad open steps. And then there’s a, a flightless bird that if you looked it up on a bird book is a lesser raya. And then depending on what part of, of Patagonia you’re in, or called Cho or Nandu. But it’s a, it’s a Flightless bird that, you know, if you saw, you know, passing by in the truck, you’d think it was an ostrich or a raya. And there’s lots of those. Those are native. And then, you know, red stag have been introduced out of Europe as long as wild Russian boar. And then there’s foxes. You have red foxes, there’s puma. Those are native. Dave (52m 43s): Oh, puma. Yep. Ron (52m 44s): There are puma, which is, you know, the equivalent to a, a mountain lion Dave (52m 48s): Cougar. Yeah. Yeah. Are you seeing, have you ever seen a puma out there? I have. Ron (52m 51s): I’ve seen three down in, in Argentina actually. You know, as I understand, again, this, you know, you’d have to check it with a biologist, but I understand actually there’s a higher concentration of puma now than there was originally. Because since they introduced the red stag and the red stag, the only, you know, natural predator they would have would be the puma, because there’s no, you know, the, the Dave (53m 15s): Nothing big enough. Ron (53m 16s): Right. The other largest predator are foxes and, and you know, essentially coyote sized foxes that aren’t big enough, even in a group, a pack to hunt the, the red stags. So their only natural predator are the cou, you know, would be the cougar or the puma. So there’s really high concentrations of puma now that they didn’t historically have. So you have maybe 160,000 acre property and they might, you know, the gouges, you know, just on natural reflex will, you know, it’s just part of their nature protecting sheep, you know, over, over multiple generations of, of gauchos. They, you know, they would just shoot a puma on site and 160,000 acre property. Ron (53m 60s): They might shoot 11 to 14 puma in, in the, you know, over a given year. So that gives you a sense of the concentration of Puma that are, that are out there. But I’ve, I’ve seen, you know, you fish in evening hatch until dark and driving clients back. I mean, you know, I’ve come across maybe, I guess I’ve seen four puma over, over my career since 1995 down there, you know, without going and looking for them, but just Sure. Stumbling across them. Yeah. Dave (54m 27s): Kinda like similar, that’s similar to Yeah. The cougars back home. Right. You, you might see if you’re lucky see two or three or four of those in your, you know, over your life maybe. Yeah. Ron (54m 35s): I’ve seen one in Orino. I mean, I think my dad’s seen two elk hunting in the, in the blue mountains and, and around. I mean, it’s not very common to see a, you know, to see a, a cougar in the, in the wild unless you’re trying to find them. Dave (54m 50s): Yeah. Awesome. Well, this is great. I think I want to get some tips, talk a few tips and tricks here, but let’s start to take it outta here in a bit. This is our kind of our, our travel segment. Obviously we’re traveling down there. We’re, we’re also putting together a trip, like we said, Atlantic salmon, that is a big one on our bucket list and wanna give a big shout out to Mountain Waters Resort. We’re heading out to Fish Atlantic Salmon in Newfoundland. And the cool thing is, is that, you know, we’ll have a group of people up there. I haven’t done this yet, so it’s gonna be exciting to chase those down. So we’re gonna give a shout out to Mountain Waters Resort on this part of the segment. I just wanna ask you, you know, it sounds like you’ve obviously spent in a couple of big places. Do you have anything trips out there you’re still looking at? Dave (55m 30s): Or do you even have time to get out and go chase, you know, fish other places around the world? Ron (55m 34s): Well, actually I just did. I just went up to BC for the first time, which was a life Oh, nice bucket list. And, you know, boy, it’s, it’s hard not to fall in love with that place. Holy Toledo. That was really magical. I fished the Suta with Sweetwater Travel was Dave (55m 50s): Oh, SUTA. Now is the sus stat, is that what system? Is that on the, or is that a different system? Yeah, Ron (55m 55s): That’s way high up in the Cheena. Oh, Dave (55m 58s): Okay. System, right. Ron (55m 59s): Yeah. So it was a phenomenal experience, you know, And it was the wa the water was really cold, but I, you know, I skated dry flies through my, through my whole week there and that, so it was really neat, you know? Dave (56m 11s): No kidding. That was, did you guys have any action? Yeah. Oh Ron (56m 14s): Yeah. I mean, I caught, I mean, I think I caught probably 80% of my fish that way. ’cause I just stuck with it. I, I, it was, that’s the only way I really wanted to catch ’em. So I was just as happy to turn one as I was to catch one. So it was fantastic. And then, you know, Jim Klug and those guys have turned me on and, you know, I’ve been able to jump on a, you know, a last minute canceled spot, you know, and Chase Tarpon down in Belize and stuff, so that was really fantastic. Dave (56m 42s): Amazing. Ron (56m 42s): But there’s tons of destinations all over the world to hit school. I Dave (56m 45s): Know. I know. Yeah. That’s, that’s it. Well, well you got a couple, you know, you’re in two of the hotspots, so you got that covered, but what was that fly you used in bc the skater? Did you use a bunch or just one main fly? Ron (56m 57s): I had a friend of mine, Steve Schmidt, that, that owns Western Rivers, fly Fishers in, in Utah and Salt Lake. He showed me some patterns that, that his, his favorite steelhead guy up there outta Smithers. And honestly, I wish I could do him justice saying, you know, who it was, I can’t remember now. But he showed me a pattern and then I sort of adapted it. But it essentially, it’s got like mouth, it’s got moose outriggers, and then, so I adapted it for, for steelhead. And then, and then that’s where I adapted that pattern. And I actually use it on the lemi quite a bit. So it’s just the foam and then with moose outriggers, and then you can tie it in different color combinations, you know, moose obviously it’s, it’s like one of the stiffest natural fighters. Ron (57m 41s): So, but you can get it bleached. It tends to, you know, the fibers aren’t quite as stiff if you bleach it, but, but you can bleach it and then you can get into tans and, and then combine that with pinks and, and, you know, but black and purple’s great and low light. And then, you know, you can use gold in tan, like those, your, you’ve got your muddler colors if you, you work in those color combinations or tan and pink. So I use those in, in BC and then use them on the lei Dave (58m 9s): And lei. Right. So you could use C up on the lei too. You could do that same stuff down there. Ron (58m 14s): Absolutely. Yep. Dave (58m 16s): Wow. So you could get one of those big migratory browns on a skated fly. Ron (58m 19s): Yeah, I mean, it, again, it’s, it’s hard to, you know, Dave (58m 22s): It’s hard to do, right? Ron (58m 23s): If you’re a steelhead, you know, then, then if you go in knowing, okay, my target is one or two fish a day, then you can, if you, I mean, in my guiding career, that’s all I did for the last 15 years, but there is a certain human element in not pulling the fly away, because the beauty of fishing that skated fly outta the boat in this crystal clear water is you get, you get to see the whole, you see the pre eat, which is so amazing. But, you know, if you’re a trout fisherman, then it’s really easy to pull the fly away. So if you’re a steel header, then you can sort of have your nerves of steel and wait and wade it through. Ron (59m 5s): Right. Wow. So it’s a lot easier to catch them on, you know, a swung streamer because you’re taking the human element out of it. But I’d say in general, your productivity, you will get as many fish to the fly, whether you’re fishing, floating line in a skated fly, or a, you know, or a th fly. I, in most days, it honestly doesn’t matter, but there’s a lot of days at two o’clock in the afternoon where you haven’t raised one. And so people are like, gosh, you know, you know, should we change the fly? And my response was always, well, let’s have it, we change the music, but, you know, if it’s easy to, to fall back on, ah, we, you know, we’ll just fish a streamer and you know, oh, at four we finally got one on the streamer. Ron (59m 50s): Whereas if you stuck with a dry, you’d still get the one on a dry. But it’s, it’s easy to fall into that. Yeah, Dave (59m 56s): You gotta stick with it. We have a series of episodes, actually it’s Brian Sket, the Ski of Spay Lodge. He hosts our, like West coast steelhead stuff. And he had, he, he was doing a, an episode recently where they’re talking about one of the guys there just fishes dry flies in the wintertime for steelhead. Right. It’s like, it’s, you know, that’s all he does. So again, it all comes back to what you want to do, you know? Right. You set, like you did up in bc you did the same thing. You’re like, Hey, I’m gonna, that’s, I’m not gonna fish any wet flies. Right. You fish dries the whole time, right? Ron (1h 0m 24s): Yeah. And I mean, I stuck with dry, and I mean, as far as fish to the fly compared to everybody else that we’re throwing tips and, you know, once the river’s stable, I honestly, I don’t, I didn’t notice any different in camp that week, for example. I mean, there was a definite difference when we got some rain and the water was off color, then, you know, that, that obviously switches everything. But when conditions were stable, I didn’t, you know, I didn’t see any difference whatsoever as far as fish to the fly. Yeah, Dave (1h 0m 55s): That’s it. Okay, cool. And, and I’ll put a link to that episode 15 of in the Bucket Adrian Cortez. Nice. And he’s, he’s the guy in the, Richard Herriton has the podcast, the River Rambler. So we’ll get a link out to that. Let’s give a couple of quick tips here. So if you’re thinking brown trout, let’s just think of Fish and Patagonia, are there any, you know, a few, two or three tips you would give that are you’d give somebody new to Paton down there fishing that also maybe might work in Montana? Or is it pretty specific? If you had to say somebody’s coming there, let’s just take ’em to that dryly, we’re not talking the swinging we’re talking just catching some brown trout on the surface. What’s the key there? What are some few things you should know before getting into that trip? They’re on their way down there. Ron (1h 1m 33s): Well, I think, I mean, I think for, for both the rainbows and the browns, like just trout fishing in Patagonia, I mean, they will react to a lot more movement on your fly compared to, you know, rivers out west. I mean, that might not be true of all, all rivers out west. I mean, I know on the South Fork they like to fish a hopper with a, an occasional twitch. But for the rivers I’ve, you know, that I guided on, you know, usually you’ve gotta work hard to achieve long drag, free drift for well-educated fish, you know, in Montana, you know, whereas in Patagonia there’s still, still so naive that they actually will oftentimes react a lot better to, you know, having movement on your fly. Ron (1h 2m 16s): And that’s just, you know, angle or pressure on the river. So they’re, they just haven’t been popped, you know, enough down in Argentina to, you know, educate them against reacting to that movement. Dave (1h 2m 28s): What is that, what, what you call it before, what, what’s the type of twitching or what, what do you do down there? How would you describe it? Ron (1h 2m 33s): I call it like the twitching sit. So like every, every like three to four feet, you know, you might like give it a little pop, Dave (1h 2m 40s): Just just kind of pop up your rod a little bit, pop your tip up. Yeah. Ron (1h 2m 43s): And then there’s also times where you’re essentially fishing, you know, top water streamers. So these are, you know, flies that wake like wounded minnow type patterns where the flies actually like a struggling minnow in the surface. Again, these, I think those, you think about those apex predators. So you see it on the White River, those guys are really successful with mice patterns at night, you know, but so those are low light situations where those predators come out. The difference is that, you know, we don’t seem, they’re feeding behavior doesn’t seem to be so nocturnal compared to, you know, compared to the states. So they’ll eat in bright light. Ron (1h 3m 25s): But the, it’s more like, you know, coming across an apex predator, you know, on the Serengeti, like those lions don’t eat every day, but when they do, they’ll, you know, those big brown trout will eat all kinds of stuff. I mean, I’ve caught ’em, you know, where they’ve burped up frogs. I mean, I found a brown trout one time with, with a, you know, with a, with a garter snake in its gut. I mean, Browns will eat all kinds of stuff if they’re ready to eat, if it’s worth enough calories. Right. So, Dave (1h 3m 52s): Yeah. And, and that top rodder streamer, what, what does that, what, what a fly look like that you’re fishing that Ron (1h 3m 57s): Well imagine like our early versions where if you imagine like a, a woolly bugger, like a white woolly bugger with a Chernobyl ant on top of it, we call those early, early manifestations, we call them Chewbacca, is we call those flies. Dave (1h 4m 12s): Right? That’s good. But Ron (1h 4m 14s): That’s essentially what it is. If you took a wooly bugger, a skinny woolly bugger, and then you put a Cher land on top of it. Dave (1h 4m 20s): Yep. So it’s floating, right? The wooly bugger’s just floating in the surface, right? And, and then you got some sort of waking thing on it, or how, how are you, how are you getting, what’s the action you’re putting on that fly? Ron (1h 4m 28s): Well, and then, And it would depend, I mean, we had, you know, because again, those browns, like when they were turned on, and they are exposed to lots of, there are still lots of native minnows in the rivers down there, so you could, you could fish those flies on like a, on a streamer strip. So just like you would strip a streamer, you could strip those top water flies as well. Dave (1h 4m 50s): Yeah, right. God, that’s great. Nice. So, so yeah, we got a, a couple tips of what, and what else, just generally, if somebody is, again, thinking about Patagonia, what do you think is the, you know, somebody’s new to it their first time. What, what do you think is the most surprising thing that most people when they get down there, they didn’t think of, they weren’t, you know, they, they were surprised to see when they get there. Ron (1h 5m 8s): I mean, I think it’s a mix. I mean, I think that people are surprised just, you know, like how friendly, how easy it is to, you know, to be in Argentina and Patagonia. I mean, people have the same reaction on the Chilean side as well, but just how welcoming, how easy it is to be there. You know, I mean the Argentines are, are really quick to make friendships and, and give you a hug. And I think that how, how, how open, you know, the, the, the people are is, is really welcoming and, and, and surprising. And then just how pristine those fisheries are. You know? And I think hopefully the distance away from, you know, the population centers will keep ’em protected and it’s sort of the very thing that makes ’em special is, is maybe what’ll be their downfall. Ron (1h 5m 58s): But, but I think, you know, ’cause certain fisheries certainly have, you know, five times, 10 times as much traffic as they do as they did when I was there when I first arrived. Dave (1h 6m 8s): Oh, right. Yeah. So it’s getting busier. It’s getting busier there than it was when you started Ron (1h 6m 12s): Undeniably. I mean, when Diego and I first, and Ja and Javier, when we first started floating the Liai, I mean, we literally didn’t see another boat for 10 years Wow. During the January to March timeframe. I mean, just nobody else was fishing the river. ’cause that’s not, when you went there, you went there, you know, like Montana guides go to the Clearwater, you go after your trout season’s over. So they would go end of April and May. And I mean, we essentially had the river do ourselves, you know, in December, you know, late December through March, we had it to ourselves for like a decade. And so eventually, you know, now maybe we see, you know, because the logistics of these properties are so massive, it’s, it’s not even, even doing an, it’s not easy doing an overnight flow trip. Ron (1h 6m 59s): I mean, it’s just not easy keeping ice cold for longer than four days. Right. And that’s what the logistics demand in floating through some of these properties where you have a public access to a public access or a public access to a, you know, a pay and play access. So it’s just not easy logistically floating through some of these properties. Dave (1h 7m 20s): And so that’s the cool thing about what you, with the ranch is that you guys have these areas where you can kind of do these like day trips and it’s essentially you have easy access. Is that kind of versus say somebody coming down there trying to DIY it or something like that? Ron (1h 7m 32s): Correct. I mean, DIY is, you know, I mean, yes, you can go and park on some public access spots and, and wade into the river because, you know, like Patagonia falls under the same laws as Dave (1h 7m 45s): Oh, it does, it’s public access. Ron (1h 7m 47s): Yeah. So once you’re in the water, you can hike up and down as far as you want. But you know, these properties, some of these properties have anywhere from 10 to 40 miles of private access. So I mean, a a normal person can, you know, is only gonna walk a mile or two in and then you, you still have to get back to your car. So, and then, you know, having all the infrastructure in order to do, you know, in order to do an overnight flow trip, you know, that’s not just something you can pack in your duffle bag. Dave (1h 8m 15s): Yeah, this is definitely right. Patagonia, this area is probably the DIY is tough, even though I know that there are some people that do it. It’s, you know, getting some sort of a, a connection. Do you guys do something where, you know, somebody could come down there, Maybe, you know, they go, maybe they’re gonna be down there for an extended period, they come and fish with you guys and then people are going off and hanging out? Or is it more people are coming down just for the week and then that’s that’s their trip? Ron (1h 8m 38s): Yeah, most people come down for anywhere from seven to 12 days of fishing. I mean, we’ve reti, you know, most, a lot of the people that come down are, are retired. So we’ve had people that, you know, come down for a month and we’ll do like, you know, fish four days and then take a couple days off and fish four days or what have you. I mean, I’ve always kitted and said, you know, we’re in the business of saying yes as much as possible, but there’s, there’s a, you know, a ton of, well, I wouldn’t say there’s a ton, but there’s a significant number of expats that, you know, come down and rent a house for the season and then you’ll rent a truck. And, and especially, you know, early and late in the season, there’s a lot of, you know, pretty quality public access water that you can fish. Ron (1h 9m 19s): I mean, in our area, I think it’s pretty well balanced that you have, you know, about half the rivers are easily accessible, you know, through public access. And then the other half is, is you need a boat or a private access. I think, I mean, I think it’s, in a lot of ways it’s a good model to show how, you know, diverse types of access can, you know, can really facilitate lots of different types of use. I mean, I think that, you know, you can make a good case in Montana now that the state’s reeling back and trying to figure out, well, how do we, how do we protect the experience of fly fishing that we’ve really overrun and then balance out that out with, you know, sort of the public, right, of everybody should have the right to go and fish, which everybody should have. Ron (1h 10m 11s): But how do you protect that with, you know, fisheries that are overused or you can even say abused. I mean, those are difficult issues right now that, you know, Montana’s trying to to deal with. And you can see in function how well it works in Argentina where you have high-end businesses that you know, ha are, you know, exist because of limited access and yet still hack the river is is openly accessible through public access and, and those people, you know, rent homes and, and pay for hotel rooms and pay for ranches. And so I think there, you see a, a potential working model for multifaceted use, right. Ron (1h 10m 56s): But of course the pressure’s always gonna be to, you know, cut down fences and we should have access to, you know, these what are essentially public fisheries, you know, but you can’t go through private lands to get to ’em. So these are working issues, right? That Dave (1h 11m 14s): Yeah, they are. No, it’s interesting. It’s, it’s cool to to hear the, you know, the, the differences, right? I mean the, and similarities between the two places. And since you’re there, it’s, it’s really interesting. Well, I think Ron, we can leave it there for today. We will send everybody out to clea fly fishing.com, that’s CE fly fishing.com for chocolate lab expeditions. And, and, and just give us on the chocolate lab, where, where does that, is that, do you have some, some dogs running around there? Is that, is that where the, the name comes from? Yeah, Ron (1h 11m 41s): Well, our first dog, when I, when I was, had the job offer and I went down to guy to Montana, I had just gotten my first, you know, my first dog, which was a chocolate lab, Molly. And, and so ended up traveling down with her occasionally on some, on some seasons. And so it was actually with my, my wife Vanessa. It was, it was one season where we didn’t know where we were gonna rent and live. So Molly stayed home with my parents, and so in a, in a moment of emotional weakness, we, we decided we would start our own business and, and Molly wasn’t there, so we named the business after her. Oh, Dave (1h 12m 16s): There you go. That’s awesome. Yeah. Cool. All right, Ron, well, we’ll send everybody out there and they can take a look and also check in with you on your, everything you have going there in Montana as well. But yeah, I appreciate your time today. This has been awesome and definitely I think what you’ve done is shed light, you know, again, like you said, some people are like, Hey, I’m in Montana. What do I need to go to Argentina for Patagonia or whatever. It’s like, you know, I think you spotlighted it today that yeah, it, it’s the experience and it’s, you know what I mean? It’s, it’s not the same. It’s a different area. So yeah, appreciate your time today and look forward to staying in touch. Okay. Ron (1h 12m 45s): Thank you so much, Dave. We really appreciate the opportunity. Dave (1h 12m 49s): Alright, that sounds unbelievable, right? You always wondered, I’m sure if I’m talking to some right here, you’ve been down there already, Maybe you haven’t been to this part of Patagonia, Maybe you haven’t been down there at all and you’re interested. This definitely is a place where you can mix it up, A mixture of migratory fish, trout, fishing on the surface. If you get a chance, check in with Ron at Clea, that’s c fly fishing.com. Let him know you heard this podcast and check in and find out what he has going on. Pick his brain a bit. If you haven’t already, please subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you get your podcast, and you’ll get the next episode delivered to you inbox. I want to give a quick shout out before we get outta here. Dave (1h 13m 30s): We talked about the Missouri on this episode. We are doing a Missouri trip This year, this fall. If you go to wetly swing.com/missouri right now, you can find out how many spots we have available. We’re gonna be hitting this for some of the big hatches in Montana, switching it right around. We’re not heading to Patagonia, but we are going to Montana. So if you’re interested, check in or send me an email, Dave, at web fly swing.com. All right, take a deep breath and let’s get onto the next thing. Hope you have a great morning. Hope you have a great afternoon or a great evening, wherever you are in the world, even if you’re in Patagonia right now listening. Appreciate you for stopping in today. We’ll talk to you soon. 2 (1h 14m 6s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly, swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing.com.