718 | Fly Fishing Minnesota with Carl Haensel – Driftless Region, Lake Trout, Great Waters Fly Fishing Expo

Dave (2s): We traveled to Minnesota this last year and explored part of the North Star state, but we didn’t come close to fishing all the great species or covering the state in detail. From Muskie to brook trout to Lake Trout, steelhead and beyond. Minnesota is for sure a destination that should be on your list this year. And we are in luck because Today we have the person who wrote the book Fly Fishing Minnesota, And today you’re gonna get a roadmap to fish some of these storied waters. This is the wifi swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. How’s it going? I’m Dave host of the We Fly Swing podcast. Dave (42s): I’ve been fly fishing since I was a kid. I grew up around a little fly shop and have created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts in this country. I’ve also interviewed more of the greatest fly anglers and guides than just about anyone out there. Carl Hensel, the person in charge of the largest fly fishing expo in Minnesota, and the author of Fly Fishing Minnesota is here to walk us around the state. We’re gonna find out why you should find some time this year to Fish Lake Trout when they get started with their program. Right now as we spoke, it was negative two degrees, so we’re gonna talk about when they start fishing there, we’re gonna find out about the drift list again, taking it back to the drift list. And they’re also going to obviously get into steelhead salmon, talk about the fishery, and hear about a little bit of the history of sea lamb prey. Dave (1m 26s): That was very interesting. I think we’ve heard about that. They collapsed back in the fifties and now they’ve responded and rebounded And we got that story today. Here we go. You can check him out. Check out the book. Fly Fishing Minnesota. Let’s get into it. Here he is. Carl Hensel. How you doing Carl? Carl (1m 43s): Ah, doing great. Glad to be here today. Dave (1m 45s): Yeah, you have a bunch of things going on we’re gonna dig into today with the focus on Minnesota. You’re a guide out there. You wrote a great book that covers kind of fly fishing Minnesota. You have an expo and I’m sure there’s some other things we’re gonna pull out here and, and some great rivers. And we were actually up in Minnesota this last year and kind of traveled around. It was really awesome to be there. We have a lot of family there, so, So yeah, I’m really excited about this one. But maybe take us into what you have going this time of year. It’s kind of like, as this goes live, we’ll probably be in February, mid-February. How’s things looking for you doing any fishing now? Carl (2m 18s): Yeah, it’s, yeah, Minnesota does deserve its reputation of being cold. So we’re based up along Minnesota’s North Shore and right now, you know, lake Superior is open, but none of the streams in the areas are. So our fly fishing limit opportunities are limited in northern Minnesota, but in southeast Minnesota in the Driftless region, which we’ll certainly talk plenty about. All of those streams down there are limestone spring creeks, and that’s where we head for fishing in the winter because all those streams, even on the coldest days, are generally open year round. And we’re really fortunate in Minnesota to have a winter trout season that opens January 1st. Carl (2m 59s): That gives us the opportunity to fish hundreds and hundreds of miles of trout streams all through the winter. It’s really fun. Dave (3m 6s): Wow. It’s amazing. Yeah, it’s, it’s really cool. It sounds, this is gonna get into some diversity, I think, which is great, but let’s start kick it off with the book because, you know, fly Fishing Minnesota, you’ve got this guide and a, and a and a mapping book that goes along with it. How did that project come to be and, and you know, how’d you get into all that? Carl (3m 24s): That’s a great question. You know, I always really enjoyed using guidebooks whenever I travel around the country. And it was something I’ve always been interested in putting together. People had talked to me about it for a while and this really became a, to some extent, a pandemic project for us to, to get this done and across the finish line and make sure it was all published and entirely done. But we, we’ve been working on it for years. My wife, Jade and I, she’s really a huge part of putting this together. She shot more than half the photos in the book and she did all of the editing and layout, so she deserves a huge, huge credit in this as well. Carl (4m 6s): But it was a lot of fun, you know, in my entire life of fishing in Minnesota and throughout the Midwest, I’ve always been a photographer. So we’ve always recorded a lot of the details with these streams and I just really wanted to find a way to share it. Dave (4m 22s): Gotcha. Wow, this is really awesome. And I, I think today, like always, we won’t be able to get on touch on everything. So we’ll be sending people out to your website and all that and maybe let’s just do that high level where people can find the book. Where’s the best place to go right now? Carl (4m 35s): Yeah, you can get the book off of our website@namabinny.com and head there. That’s easy. You can also buy it and you know, local and regional fly shops, you can get it on the, you know, internet on Amazon. But, you know, we love to have people go to our website and pick up the book And we, we ship it on out and folks who buy it through us get a free introductory TRO limited membership. Oh, nice. We’re big tro limited folks. And you can get a free TU membership, even if you’re already a member, you can give it away to someone. So there you go. Dave (5m 6s): It’s cool. Carl (5m 7s): We’re big into conservation. We play a lot of conservation roles here in the state and you know, that’s part of, you know, why we wanted to do this book as a more than 350 page book. We wanted to be able to tell the stories of these streams so people could go out and visit them. That’s really, for us, the key is that at the core of what we do is conservation. And to have effective conservation for our waters here, we believe people need to go out and interact with them. If you don’t go out and fish water, you’re not as likely to be able to care about it well and advocate for it if it’s having issues. Carl (5m 49s): So that’s really one of the big reasons why we did what we did to put out this, this large guide. Dave (5m 55s): Perfect. So, great. Well that’s a a that’s a good intro. So I guess the challenge I would think on this is, you know, how do you cover it all? What do you choose, you know, what is left out? Like how do you maybe start there, how do you break up Minnesota? Because we, when we drove there, we actually went to, and you’ll know I’m sure all these places to the headwaters of the, the Mississippi right up at that state park. Yep. And then we, we drove down through there and then we headed south basically to the, to the Twin cities and all that stuff. But how has Minnesota broken up? Because you’ve got Lake Superior and you’ve got the Driftless, you mentioned you’ve got all this stuff. How has the book broken out? Carl (6m 29s): That’s a good question. So we’ve separated it out into some key aspects. So we talk about our Northern Minnesota trout streams, which both includes the trout streams that are around the headwaters in Mississippi on Lake Itasca. Yeah. Where you visited there. That’s right. There’s some cool streams there. We, so we talk about all those northern streams and the Lake Superior tributaries. We talk about the Driftless and Southern Minnesota trout streams as a group. We talk about Minnesota’s trout lakes. We have an incredible trout lake resource here. And so we have a full separate chapter of the book that highlights fishing in Trout lakes, which are primarily in northeastern Minnesota, but there are some spread throughout components of the state. Carl (7m 13s): Then we talk about our warm water fishing opportunities, both warm water rivers and warm water lakes. So it certainly is hard to cover everything. And while we have covered the trout waters very robustly and comprehensively and our warm water rivers that are good to float and good to explore for our warm water species, because Minnesota’s known as the 10 land of 10,000 Lakes, we utilized key lakes that could serve as examples of different lakes that you might be able to fish, because we certainly couldn’t cover all the lakes. Carl (7m 55s): That’s, Dave (7m 56s): Yeah, you don’t have 10,000 lakes in, in the book, right? Carl (7m 59s): We do not, yeah. But we have great examples of whether it’s lakes in the Twin Cities metro or Muskie Lakes or, you know, all sorts of different things that you might be able to go out Gotcha. And fish and explore. Dave (8m 12s): Yeah, that’s perfect. Okay. So yeah, I think that’s part of the thing. You know, if somebody was to get the book or if they’re heading into Minnesota, they could get the book and then really just get a, a taste for the area maybe where they’re gonna be. So, and maybe let’s talk about the species. What are the most common popular species in Minnesota? Carl (8m 29s): So for fly anglers, it really is divided in that cold water, warm water world. You know, we have robust Spring Creek fishing for both really hundreds and hundreds of miles of wild brown trout water, as well as wild brookies down in the Driftless in northern Minnesota. It’s more concentrated for stream trout on brook trout. We do have some brown trout waters as well in Northern Minnesota. And we have really incredible runs of steelhead. We have wild steelhead coming outta Lake Superior that show up on the Minnesota North Shore. That’s a lot of fun to target. We have some other incidental salmon like pink salmon, the occasional and rare coho or schnook type of thing that’s, that’s around. Carl (9m 17s): But really for migratory sail mods, we really talk about our steelhead here. And then we go into warm water fish and warm water fish. And our fishing opportunities are diverse and varied. So we have classic fishing for small mouth bass, large mouth bass, northern pike, muskies walleye of course being the state fish in Minnesota. Not as much a fly rod quarry, but we pick up a lot of incidental walleye. Anyone who is targeting warm water fish, it’s really a mixed bag. And so you, that’s part of the fun of the warm water fishing in the state. You never know what you’re really gonna get into. Some people are really excited about sort of those B-list species as well, whether that’s carp or fin or gar and different stuff like that. Carl (10m 4s): So there’s a lot of diversity up here for people to get into. Perfect. Dave (10m 8s): Perfect. No, that’s great. And Wal, and so your book, and just to clarify it, it is fly fishing Minnesota and not just fishing Minnesota, right? Carl (10m 16s): That is correct. So everything is, you know, we pursue with a fly rod and so the book really focuses on fly fishing. You know, like a great example that I didn’t touch on in the sail mon world is Lake Trout up here. Oh yeah. We have a, we have an amazing lake trout fishery in northern and northeastern Minnesota. And a lot of people don’t realize that those can be absolutely pursued with a fly rod. They’re a ton of fun to catch another big trout species here that people don’t think of as much. Dave (10m 48s): Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned Lake Draw. That’s perfect. ’cause I was thinking a little bit going into this, I was, you know, of course we talk a lot about steelhead and, and the Brule River right, is a, is a pretty famous river up there. Carl (10m 57s): Yep. The Brule is right across the border in Wisconsin. You know, like I, where I sit on the, on the North Shore, I’m looking across right now at the mouth of the Brule River, 20 miles across the lake. And you know, it’s a very cool migratory fish and resident fish river for a wide variety of Al Mons has a, you know, both an incredible steelhead population, but just an amazing migratory brown and coho and chinook run as well. So really neat river that we guide up here with myself and the other guides that work for us across the border on the, in the Wisconsin side. So we hit that as well. That’s sort of part and parcel out of being based out of the Duluth Superior area, is that we robustly guide both Minnesota and Wisconsin. Dave (11m 44s): Yeah. Both of them. Okay, great. Yeah, this is awesome. And, and so I guess maybe let, let’s go into a little bit on, you know, your guide service and talk about that a little. That might be a good way to frame this. ’cause I think the book, there’s so much, it’s hard to right dive into it all here, but we’ll, we’ll have links out where people can check out the book. But what does that look like for you? When do you start your guiding operation in the year? Carl (12m 6s): Good question. We start off here with a Brule River opener, which opens on the last Saturday in March, and that’s when that’s opened. The Brule River is an immense and massive Spring Creek, so it’s a huge volume of spring water emerging from the ground at the headwaters of that river. So that river, the moment that it’s legally open to fish, we’re ready to fish it And we start pursuing those steelhead. The brule has a genetically distinct steelhead run. Those steelhead were originally introduced to this component of Western Lake Superior in the 1890s. And the steelhead in the brule are genetically unique from the steelhead on the Minnesota North Shore. Carl (12m 51s): And one of the big aspects that is a key component of the kickoff of our season in the spring is the fact that about 80% of those Brule River steelhead run up in the fall, and then they winter in the river, and then they spawn in the spring. So 20% of that run comes up in the spring, but 80% of that run is already in the river and waiting for us when that river opens. So it makes for a, a very unique fishery that has really different run timing than any other steelhead river in the area. Dave (13m 27s): And it reminds us again on that. So the fish in the brule, so you’re starting in March? Yeah, end of March, that’s when it opened. So that’s kind of a more like a winter spring type steelhead. And then do you have a fish that, and then do you have fishing later in to the fall as well? Carl (13m 41s): Yes, yes we do. So we fish those steelhead in the spring And we really start off our season on the Brule. And then once winter loses its grip, finally on the Minnesota North Shore, we transition to fishing, spring run steelhead on the North shore as well. And eventually by mid to late may, generally those steelhead are back out to Lake Superior and they’re, they’re gone and they’re spending the summer in the, in the big lake. And our migratory fish runs then from a migratory perspective, start again right at the end of July, beginning of August. They start with brown trout migrating in, followed eventually by Sam and then followed by steelhead. Carl (14m 26s): So we have a, a very robust fall migratory run that takes place on the Brule River there in Wisconsin. And our season there closes on November 15th. So sort of our bookend and migratory fish picture. And in betwixt all of that, we have all of our incredible resident and warm water fishing that we do. Dave (14m 47s): Gotcha. Yeah. And are you, are you in physically, are you in Duluth? Carl (14m 50s): Yeah, I sit up above Lake Superior between Duluth and two Harbors on the Minnesota North Shore. Dave (14m 57s): Oh, and two Harbors. Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. And cool. So this is a big part. So, so if you had to say throughout the year, what, which species are you spending most of your time kinda chasing or guiding for? Carl (15m 7s): You know, it’s a, it’s a great question. There is a really good balance to everything, but steelhead are very popular. They’re iconic, they’re huge. Our wild steelhead here are just really an incredible fish. And we have a really strong, robust run. So we have a lot of people that come in from all over because they want a shot at a, a wild, naturally producing fish. And unfortunately, as I’m sure you’re aware, some of our West Coast steelhead stocks have fallen on hard times. So we get anglers who are like, wow, I want to come out, I want to see what a great lake steelhead is and, and what’s going on with that. Carl (15m 49s): We have people who come from around the country all over the region to do that and are really excited about that. But you know, we also have people that are as equally enthused about many of our resident trout and warm water species opportunities as well. Dave (16m 2s): Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And one of those is, I think lake trout I think is one that we haven’t talked quite as much about. What’s that look like with the fly? I mean, lake trout are known as the, the deep, you know, they’re down deep, they’re hard to find. Are lake trout, is that something that you, you can get into a number of with the fly? Carl (16m 19s): You can, but the window and seasonal opportunity for that is shorter. And that’s just the, the reality because lake Trout really do like cold, even, you know, much colder water than our other sail mons prefer. So that’s why they don’t have as much accessibility. I have friends of mine that are really diehard lake trout on a fly anglers, and they’ll, so they’ll fish ’em a little bit later into the season. But realistically from when they open in May into into early June, is the best window to chase Lake Trout. You know, it’s essentially all a streamer fishery because lake trout are a big predator. A lot of people might know, you know, both the story of lake trout here, where they’re native and the stories of lake trout where they’ve been introduced and are invasive. Carl (17m 7s): And in all cases, lake trout are just swimming around and eating as many fish as possible. So when the water is cold in early spring here, those lake trout are shallow and they’re accessible. So you’re gonna have times where some of the lakes in northern Minnesota, like in our boundary waters canoe area wilderness, where those fish are very accessible On the other hand, by the time you get into midsummer, yes, those lake trout are gonna be in a hundred feet of water and they’re not the type of fish that you want to try to pursue with a fly rod. Dave (17m 40s): No. So you gotta catch ’em that, that win. And what is that window, if you had to say the best, you know, kind of period that have a shot at a Lake trout, when would that be? Carl (17m 48s): It really is from when they open, you know, around the second week of, of May from that opener in the North year through early June Dave (17m 56s): To early June. Yeah. So a short window. Okay. Carl (17m 58s): It’s a, yeah, it’s a, it’s a short window and it’s, if the water stays cold, they’ll be up. 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Dave (18m 59s): Discover the L Ray series and more at pescador on the fly.com. You mentioned a little bit on the life history of Lake Trout. What do you know a little bit about that? Like where are, where is the native range for Lake Trout? Do you kind of know that a little bit? Yeah, Carl (19m 14s): You know, certainly, and you know, lake Trout are native to the Eastern United States and Canada, and that’s at the end of our last ice age. They had a greater range that had been pushed south and as the last glaciation retreated, they really occupied a lot of those glacially carved lakes. And Minnesota has by far the best native lake trout populations in the lower 48. And there’s obviously vast lake trout fishing available in Canada. But I think for a lot of fly anglers, what they realize is that lake trout are not native to the Innermountain West or to any of the Pacific drainages. Carl (19m 60s): And that’s really that differentiation. So where we’ve seen Lake Trout, you know, introduced to such a wide variety of major western lakes, whether that be Flathead Lake in Montana, Yellowstone Lake, and Yellowstone National Park, lake Tahoe, all have lake trout that are, have radically influenced quite a few of the native cutthroat populations and have dramatically impacted them. So Lake trout are a fun, super aggressive predator that, you know, I love to catch one of the, you know, they’re gonna hit a fly and if they don’t get it, they’re gonna hit it again and they’re gonna hit it again and they’re gonna hit it again. Carl (20m 40s): Wow. Yeah, it is so fun. And so we have a, we have a lot of fun fishing on Dave (20m 45s): Yeah, sounds amazing. So if you’re, yeah, if you’re out there, that might be a good way. Yeah. You start out with some steelhead, but then by, you know, May 2nd week of May into June, you’re hitting some lake trout, something like that. That sounds like a pretty good plan. Carl (20m 56s): Yeah, it’s an adventure. You gotta get, you gotta get into wilderness. Oftentimes folks really enjoy getting into the boundary Waters, canoe area wilderness. We profile some specific aspects and routes in the Boundary Waters, canoe area wilderness within the book to give people a sense of exactly where they could go, what they might find, those types of things, you know, because it’s, it’s a wilderness experience, you know, experience. And these are truly wilderness fish. They are accessible at times in Lake Superior as well, but Lake Superior is a fickle lake. Dave (21m 32s): Oh it is. Carl (21m 33s): It’s, you know, it’s today it’s beautifully calm, it’s laid down and it’s, it’s a stunning day at negative two degrees. Dave (21m 41s): Oh wow. That’s the temperature today. Carl (21m 44s): That’s the temperature today. Not a day for fly fishing. Wow. But Lake Superior is a lake that can, if you plan a day on it, you can’t count on going fishing that day. No. You could have 6, 8, 10 foot waves come up and you won’t be out on that outta the lake that day. Yeah. But it really is also an amazing resource And it has an incredible lake trout population. And as well as all of these other salmon monets, everything from migratory coaster brook trout that we haven’t mentioned, you know, to all of the migratory brown trout, co-host Chinooks, all these different cell monets in the Dave (22m 20s): Lake. It’s got everything. Do they have a pretty good feel on the lake? It’s so big, you know, do they, do you have a feel for impacts from the, the fish and salmon are, are there still a lot of hatchery as far as the salmon stuff going on out there? Is, is that something of concerned or, I’m just thinking like you got these lake trout, which are the native fish, are there competitions, stuff like that with the other species? Carl (22m 42s): That’s a great question. And we are really fortunate that we have nationally award-winning biologists out here that have really been focused on management and restoration and have done an incredible job. The fisheries in Lake Superior collapsed around the middle of the last century due to over harvest and sea lamp ray predation, sea lamp rays as a non-native, invasive parasitic fish that really collapsed the native lake trout and other fish populations. And we have worked diligently since that point to get to a time now where our lake trout populations are fully recovered at this point in time. Carl (23m 25s): There’s no lake trout stocking in the Western Lake Superior Basin, and it’s a really sustainably harvestable fishery, which is something that we just can’t say about a lot of cell mounted fisheries, many places as a wild, naturally producing fishery that although it’s not fly fishing, there’s many charter boats that go out of Duluth every day during the summer. And for the most part, those anglers are bringing back limits of lake trout in a very sustainable manner. You know, the pie is carved up of the forage fish. There’s a finite amount of forage fish that can be consumed in the, in the Western Lake Superior Basin. And that is split between our native lake trout and our wild steelhead, our wild brown trout, our wild cohos and our wild chinooks. Carl (24m 10s): You know, along with the few coaster brook trout that we have that are hanging on as really our original native migratory fish, which is a great story in its own right for the migratory giant coaster brookies. But there with only a few exceptions, there is virtually no stocking that’s going into the lake at this point in time. Dave (24m 32s): No stocking of any of any of the salmon species. Carl (24m 35s): Yeah, there’s just a, there’s a small, small amount of direct progeny of wild steelhead in two near Duluth rivers that contribute very, very little into the, the fishery. And over on the south shore in Wisconsin near Ashland and Bayfield, there’s some stocking that goes on in a bay over there called Schwa Magan Bay. And Schwa Magan Bay has received some, some hatchery fish, but really in the main lake there’s nothing. And you know, when we’re out fishing and when we talk to charter captains out there, it is, you know, really the vast, vast majority of fish that we’re seeing in the lake are wild naturally producing fish, which we feel really fortunate about. Dave (25m 18s): Yeah, right. Wow, that’s amazing. So the, so basically the Lake Trout, everything’s doing, it’s really interesting ’cause like you mentioned the steelhead, you know, it’s this interesting thing, we’ve talked a lot about it. We’ve got a whole podcast series in the bucket where Brian’s been talking a lot about the ups and downs of the steelhead and things like that. But you know, there’s some challenges. And then also even go up to Alaska, you see Chinook, it seems like there’s some crazy stuff going there with closures and things. How is Lake Superior, do you think it’s different, a lot different than what’s going on in the Pacific Ocean or even the Atlantic Ocean? Like how have they got the lake trout dialed, figured out? Right? It seems like if, if these other places aren’t getting it figured out, how, how have you guys been able to do it? Carl (25m 55s): Well, it was a, a long and difficult process because Lake Superior, when it was in its original state before the accidental introduction of sea lamp rays that went along, you know, around Niagara Falls and up through the well and Canal and into the Upper Great Lakes, when that occurred, there were dozens of different genetically unique populations of lake trout that spawned in specific areas, had different life histories. And we lost a lot of that. Unfortunately, there really was a, a great genetic loss during the collapse of Someon Fisheries in the, in the Great Lakes that, you know, from a fisheries management standpoint, we still mourn to this day and to recover it. Carl (26m 45s): They initially tried, you know, stocking lake trout, but some of the Lake trout strains that they tried just weren’t ones that worked because they weren’t well situated to spawn in the areas that we had here. So they had to retool and retool and eventually came to some lake tr strains that did well here. And it took decades of continued monitoring adjustment and stocking to get it back to a point where all these lake trout are doing very well in the lake here and are really sustainable. And we just don’t have near the amount of variables, even though Lake Superior is the world’s largest freshwater lake by surface area, it does not compare to the Pacific Ocean. Carl (27m 34s): And we don’t have the variables of predation. Yeah. We don’t have some of the variables, the different climactic changes that we’re seeing. Yep. And we have really, really dedicated managers here that are really focused on, you know, on our populations here. Dave (27m 52s): Yeah. That’s what it is. And so, and then on the, maybe describe just quickly on the Sea Lamp Parade, describe that collab. How did that happen? Can you describe that, that process? How, how it sounds like it got accidentally introduced, but what happened there? Carl (28m 7s): So, so Sea Lamp prairies are native to, there’s a native sea lamp rate native to Atlantic Ocean drainages and had been able to historically migrate as far inland as Lake Ontario. And from a perspective of accessibility, it was not until we started creating a bypass around Niagara Falls. Oh. That eventually created the accessibility, not only for sea lamp rays, but all of the different invasive fish species that now occupy components of the Upper Great Lakes to be able to get around. Carl (28m 47s): And some of those moved on their own. Some were moved to ballast water, fish, some we, you know, baus water of ships and some, we just don’t know exactly how they got in. But Sea Lamp race specifically made it around Niagara Falls and then absolutely collapsed the, collapsed the fisheries in not only Lake Superior, but in Lake Michigan, lake Huron. Dave (29m 7s): Oh, really? So everything got hit, Carl (29m 9s): Everything got hit. There is an amazing book called The Life and Death of the Great Lakes. Oh wow. That details a lot of, a lot of the science and a lot of the history. And if people are interested, they can dig into that. And that talks a lot about some of this fisheries history and provides a perspective of, you know, what it was before and what it is now. Yeah, Dave (29m 29s): Right. That’s, yeah. Well that’s great. We’ll put a link out to that book as well so people can take a look at that. And that is interesting. And we’ve been, we’ve been jumping around, we’ve had a number of episodes on, you know, all the lakes and all the states and Ontario, and it’s really cool. Yeah. ’cause like you said, it’s all connected. You know, you’ve got these lakes that essentially, well I guess historically they weren’t connected like NamUs, right. Fish couldn’t get up there. Like Niagara Falls was the one, the place, right. That was the first place that stopped. But after they, what they created there, so they created some sort of a, just a fish ladder bypass whatever it was there that fish could get through. Carl (30m 1s): So it’s a, it is a massive system of locks and dams to get shipping and passage for, for goods and commerce around Niagara Falls. And that, you know, has been a, you know, a huge economic driver for the center of the North American continent and the, you know, invasive species aspects, you know, are just one of the results of that. Dave (30m 22s): Yeah. That’s it. Okay. Well let, let’s take it back into Minnesota and, and again, like we said, it’s gonna be hard to cover, you know, everything today, but back to your operation. So we talked steelhead, you know, we talked about lake trout. What, what happens in, what, what are you doing in say, you know, June, July, August when you start to get to the, the warmer months of the year? Carl (30m 40s): Yeah, we have just an amazing time here. After the steelhead season, we segue into some of our resident trout fishing. We have great resident trout fishing. We’ve got over a thousand miles of trout streams in northeast Minnesota in the top three counties of the Arrowhead region of Minnesota up along Lake Superior. And primarily those are native and wild brook trout waters. And so we do resident trout fishing there, the Boise Brule River in Wisconsin across the lake. We as a Spring Creek, we have just wonderful wild trout fishing there. And we focus on some of the really premier hatches. Carl (31m 21s): We’ve got an incredible brown Drake hatch. We’ve got a great hex hatch there. Just really, really good hatch fishing, which is a lot of fun, you know, because that river and our rivers on the Minnesota North Shore are really ensconced in forest and don’t have agriculture surrounding them. Our mayfly, cataly stonefly hatches have remained really robust where we’ve lost hatches and other places due to pesticide use like neonicotinoids and other issues that are affecting hatches elsewhere, both in Minnesota and around the country. Carl (32m 0s): We’re fortunate that our hatches up here are awesome and are doing really well. So that’s cool. And we get to fish those, you know, we focus on that a lot in June. You know, our warm water calendar starts really at the end of May and in June and for our guide business, we’re really pretty small mouth bass focused. Okay. From a warm water perspective, it’s a ton of fun. There’s a lot of top water action. You know, we get to, you know, we’re throwing out dalberg divers and poppers and just getting ba to come up and crush ’em. And it’s a really visual fishery, you know, whether we’re running it by a drift boat or by raft, you know, that’s, you know, it’s a lot of fun. Carl (32m 41s): And that, that warm water fishery is just a, an enjoyable, you know, component in the middle of the season. Dave (32m 48s): Perfect. And I wanna get into, I wanna give us, before we get outta here in a while, that, you know, some top places that might be hard to do, but some top destinations, which we’re always loving talking about, but, but let’s talk about the expo because this is another big thing. You, you sounds like, you know, you’re one of those guys that’s got a million things going on, but, but talk about that real quick. What, what is, describe the fly fishing expo for those that aren’t aware of it. Carl (33m 10s): Yeah, it’s the largest fly fishing event in the Midwest. It’s two and a half days. We run it as a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. The Great Waters Fly Fishing Expo is unique in fly fishing events in the United States because it really serves to benefit Minnesota Trout Unlimited. It helps drive some of our conservation funding. So my wife Jade and I operated on behalf of Minnesota Tu And it brings in anglers, presenters, exhibitors from around the world. So everything from Alaska to Argentina, we’ve got presenters and exhibitors that come in and are able to share information in addition to, you know, top brands, fly shops, all sorts of interesting components. Carl (33m 54s): That is everything that people are gonna be super excited to explore right at the end of winter. So we always run it in March this year is March 21, 22, and 23 Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. And it’s just what folks need to be able to get ready to get pumped for the season and get all the latest gear and learn a lot about destinations, both regionally. So we have a lot of guides and a lot of shops and a lot of people that are gonna just be able to provide direct instruction, be like, Hey, how do I fish the Driftless? How do I fish bass in Minnesota? How do I fish the North Shore? How do I fish the Boys Pool River? Carl (34m 35s): And we do programming on that. That is super cool. In addition to a lot of the destination stuff of like, you know, what am I gonna experience if I go to Alaska? Dave (34m 44s): Yeah. Right. So you cover it all and it’s probably kind similar to the, like the RIMSKY shows which are, or I’m not sure we’re the closest, but is it similar to that, like that program where you guys can have a little bit of it? Carl (34m 56s): Yeah, it’s thematically similar. You know, certainly we really like to highlight the fact that we don’t repeat any programming. So it’s similar to a conference track. We have usually nearly four dozen different program opportunities that are gonna occur. And so people can line that up through all three days. So if they’re excited about destination travel or they’re excited about, you know, technical trout fishing skills, you know, or if they’re excited about warm water fishing opportunities, they can segue through and be able to really have a unique experience to learn a lot from experts in the field. Dave (35m 32s): Wow. Out of the, the two things, I’m not sure how much you’re involved, but you got Fly Fishing Expo in your guiding business, which, which one is taking up more time throughout the year of your time? Carl (35m 42s): That’s a, that is a a great question of all the different things that, that we do. ’cause you know, we, we guide, we do the show, we write articles for different fly fishing magazines and that type of stuff. Do a lot of photography. But we’re really fortunate that we are able to segment this off. So, you know, during the spring, summer and fall, we are really focused on guiding, once the, the guiding season ends from mid-November until March, we’re focused on putting together the best expo that we can And we work on a bunch of our writing working toward additional, whether it’s magazine pieces or books that we’re, you know, working toward at this point. Carl (36m 25s): Some really neat stuff we’ll have coming in, you know, down the pipeline. So that’s sort of how we split things up so that we don’t drive ourselves crazy Dave (36m 35s): Step into the world where the river whispers and the fishing is nothing short of legendary. 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Let’s get into, and this might be hard to do, but I want to talk, you know, because we talk top places, you know, I mean, you mentioned the boundary waters, which we haven’t dug into. We’ve had some episodes on that we’ve, you know, lake Superior, the Drift list, I mean the Land of 10,000 Lakes. But how would you, if you had to say like, you know, top 10 just a, a top list of destinations, somebody’s wants to go to Minnesota, maybe they’re in North Dakota or South Dakota, somewhere around, they want, they’re driving across the country or something like that and they wanna fish. Can you give us a list of maybe the places that you think are the most popular for fly fishing out there? Carl (38m 1s): Sure, we can talk through some of those And it really is because there’s so much water, it is very hard to pick, you know, here in the Driftless in Southeast Minnesota, you know, we’ve got over 1200 miles of different spring creeks down there. But really there’s some marquee options that stand out for anglers. And so we’ll start there in southern Minnesota and the Root River Watershed and the south branch of the Root River in particular, along with its tributaries is really at the top of the, of the list that we’ve got, you know, that we’ve got there. We’ve got a couple different fly shops in two small towns that are both on the south branch, the Root River, both offer guiding down there. Carl (38m 46s): So really great opportunity to get get out there. Which ones Dave (38m 50s): Are those? Which ones are those shops? Carl (38m 51s): You’ve got the Root River Rod Company in Lanesborough, Minnesota. And so the Root River Rod Company, super great shop, amazing fly selection guides that can get you out on the water there. And we, you have the Driftless fly fishing company in Preston, Minnesota, and that is a, an Orvis shop really got, you know, that water right around there nailed down and they have different strong points. So they do some kayak based fishing and kayak rental out of the Driftless fly fishing company in Preston. And the Root River Rod company has the only really good setup in the entire Driftless for float trips. Carl (39m 34s): If you want to do a drift boat and have that shot, that’s one river. And they’ve actually got a couple, there’s a direct tributary, the north branch, the route also that they float down there. Really cool. And you can get into some really great fishing and some big trout and there are literally dozens and dozens of tributaries that flow into those watersheds that are designated trout water and some of which are, you know, nationally recognized like Trout Run, which is a tributary to the North branch, the root in its own right. So a lot of neat water there elsewhere in the Driftless. The Whitewater River watershed is iconic. Carl (40m 14s): It’s got a namesake state park, whitewater State park that offers camping and a good opportunity to explore the river. There’s three rain branches, the white water, if you are going to the list, whether you explore the south branch route or the whitewater, you’re not gonna go wrong. And those are deeply profiled along with the shops in our book in fly fishing Minnesota. So we’ve got comprehensive mapping that shows all the rivers down there. And one of the key things that’s just amazing about fishing there in the Driftless, which makes this so good for visiting anglers is we have huge quantities of easements. Carl (40m 58s): These are perpetual easements, they never go away. Anglers can look at the book, they can pick out a spot, they know that they don’t have to ask for access and they can walk right into the water and fish on hundreds and hundreds of miles of water. And that’s what really makes the Drift list so unique is that Minnesota from our department of natural resources in our advocacy with Trout Unlimited has really prioritized access and specifically in the drift list that shines so brightly because you can just get out there, pull up to a pasture and you don’t have to worry about it. You have incredible open fishing. Carl (41m 38s): There’s been miles and miles and miles of habitat work that’s been done there and you can just walk in and fishing it. Dave (41m 45s): Wow, okay. So that’s the Root river, so that that area for sure as well. What would be another spot, And we, and I don’t know if we wanna break this up by regions or specific rivers, but what, what else would you be putting in that top list? Carl (41m 56s): Right, so that, so the drift list, I was, you know, going Root River and the Whitewater River as sort of two key and I mentioned trout run there, you know, like, so if we want to move, you know, move up, there’s certainly are other many excellent trout rivers and streams in between there and the Twin Cities metro area. But there’s a lot of incredible warm water fishing in the central part of the state. And I think that’s something that visiting anglers just shouldn’t miss because the fishing on the upper Mississippi, both just right in and outside to the north of the Twin Cities metro area has special regulations that protect the smallmouth bass there. Carl (42m 38s): The smallmouth bass fishing is just amazing. And there is, there’s great guides that work that there’s some amazing shop space in the Twin Cities metro area, a whole host of them. And they do an amazing job getting people on the water to fish that upper Mississippi River small mount fishery. And that fishery goes all the way from, as a quality excellent fishery all the way from the Twin cities all the way north to Grand Rapids, Minnesota as just a stunning fishery. And it’s somewhere where you can realistically have shots at getting out on the river and hooking an 18 to 19 to 20 inch small mouth. And whether that’s something that you’re gonna do on your own or whether that’s something that you’re gonna do with a guide, whether you’re gonna walk weight it, whether you’re gonna float it, it’s just a incredible fishery. Carl (43m 28s): It also has really good pike and musky fishing in segments of it, you know, in the river. Really neat shots at those big fish. So that’s a great, great resource there. A lot of fun. I was just on it, it’s actually even open in the winter. There’s a nuclear power plant. Wow. Dave (43m 48s): Is it still powering, getting power out of it? Oh Carl (43m 50s): Yeah, it’s power in the twin, the twin cities as we speak. There you go. And some, there’s a warm water discharge there that has some of that fishery is functionally viable all through the winter as well. So we were just out catching 18, 19 inch small up bass the other week, which is kind of crazy, but it is fun. So in a parallel world over to the east, in the central part of the state on the Minnesota, Wisconsin border is the Saint Croix River. And the St. Croix River as one of the first wild and scenic rivers in the nation has been amazingly protected. Carl (44m 31s): So a huge amount of the land along the St. Croix River is in federal hands as well as in state parks, state forests, county lands. And that watershed is as a large central United States watershed, one of the most pristine and well protected that we have. It has amazing facilities and mapping that the National Park Service has created for the river to be able to camp along it, canoe it, explore it, and fish it. It is well is an amazing small smallmouth bass muskie and pike fishery and has many distinct segments. Carl (45m 13s): You know, both the Mississippi and the Saint Croix are fully profiled and mapped in detail in our book. So it provides all the information that people need to be able to, to get on that. The Saint Croix has its headwaters in Wisconsin, it eventually goes east of the Minnesota, Wisconsin border. And fishing continues to be excellent in that up toward its headwaters. Dave (45m 36s): Wow. Okay. So, so we’re starting off. So drift list, Mississippi small mouth, St. Croix. What else would you add if we add a few more onto this list as far as top places in Minnesota, Carl (45m 48s): So the lake country world is worth considering as a flying angler. Dave (45m 53s): Is this the boundary lakes or is this is different from the boundary waters? Carl (45m 57s): This is, this is sort of the central Minnesota, you know, big water pieces and there’s both, you know, what we, you know, refer to as like resort area lakes and there’s like the big Musky lakes, the giant pieces like Lacs or Leach Lake and those waters are really cool if you’re going to try to find the biggest fish that you’ve ever caught. There’s some awesome guides that can get you on those. It’s big conventional tackle destination as well. And you know, you have both conventional fishing and fly fishing opportunities there in all of those lakes, but really diverse warm water opportunities. Carl (46m 38s): And what really highlights that is that there are innumerable lakes and places to stay and options to get on the water. So it’s just really great family fishing and a lot of these are resort communities, so they’re really focused on creating good experiences for everybody. So if you’re one of fly fish and you want to have a great time and you want to get in something, they’re super fun and just really enjoyable. And that really contrasts with the boundary waters canoe area wilderness and the boundary waters canoe area wilderness up along the Canadian border in northern northeastern Minnesota. That area is really, truly wilderness. Carl (47m 21s): Yeah, you know, we’re talking about a million acres that is visited by canoe And it is paddle only. There’s essentially, other than some of the entry area lakes that have a few motorboat options, once you get off of that, you are only by a hand propelled craft, whether that’s your canoe or kayak or what have you. And then you portage, so you portage from lake to lake to lake, carrying your canoe, carrying your gear, getting deeper and deeper in the wilderness. On the Canadian border where this sits on the Canadian side, there’s also another million acre wilderness there called quetico. Carl (48m 2s): And together they just make this vast canoe country where all of the lakes and all the land are just this interconnected area of water and woods and wilderness. And you are out there and it’s an incredible experience to get away from absolutely everything and get to some incredible fishing that is up there. The fishing really has, it’s very small mouth bass focused for fly anglers. There’s also really good spring, northern pike fishing that occurs up there at the same time when you have access to some of the lake trout. Carl (48m 42s): So very few muskies within that, that area specifically. But you have small mouth, you have northern pike, you have lake trout and there are also lakes that are managed specifically for brook trout. And you have shots at some trophy brook trout in the wilderness as well within the boundary waters canoe area wilderness. There you go. So wow. Just a, a super neat area and you know, it might take a day or a day and a half or more to portage into some of these locations, but if folks are, you know, they’re dreaming of hooking that 18 or 20 inch brook trout, that’s, that’s an opportunity that’s up there, which is, you know, hard to provide a lot of places. Dave (49m 27s): Right, right. That’s it. Cool. And then, you know, just looking, I guess we also mentioned kinda like superior, which would, you’d probably add that right steelhead onto this list of maybe the, the brewer. What would be the, or let’s say, what have we left out? What else would you add to this list from what we’ve talked about here? Carl (49m 42s): So one of the big things on the list are the North Shore tributaries. These North Shore tributaries two Lake Superior in Minnesota. They’re incredibly beautiful in the last 10 miles of all of these streams. They all drop about a thousand vertical feet coming down toward the lake. So every stream and river has multiple waterfalls that are just stunningly beautiful. And they offer both incredible brook trout fishing and then below the last waterfall, wherever that happens to be. Every stream is different. They’re going to have access to those migratory fish, whether it’s gonna be steelhead spring or pink salmon in the fall. Carl (50m 24s): And that’s one of the neat things. It’s really hard to call out any specific rivers because there’s so much diversity on the North Shore. There are iconic large ones like the Baptism River in Tet State Park has great trail access, three quarters of a mile of migratory fish water, and then resident trout water above that you, so it’s got camping, it’s got, you know, lodging opportunities nearby. It’s got hiking trails, it’s got all of those different things that you, that you want to explore on a large river on the Minnesota North Shore. Dave (50m 58s): Wow, amazing. Cool. Well let’s just take it out here really quickly with our, kind of our gear segment shout out. And I wanted to, we haven’t touched in detail on any of this, but maybe talk about that a little bit. What is, as far as, and maybe you probably have this at the show coming up, but let, let’s just focus on your companies. You had to spotlight a few that you’re using every day. You’re out there fishing. What are some of those brands that are kind of your go-to? We Carl (51m 21s): Use a lot of different stuff within our guiding business and you know, we work, we’ve got a fly shop in Wisconsin in the superior side that we’ll work closely with the superior fly angler and they, you know, they have a robust amount of gear. So, you know, whether that’s Orvis, whether that’s Sage, whether, you know, that’s St. Croix, you know, lot of really good brands here. You know, we use a lot of Orvis gear and they’ve been really wonderful. I, you know, it’s, I got my first Orvis guide Rod 29 years ago. Oh wow. Dave (51m 54s): No kidding. Carl (51m 55s): And you know, they have backed it up every single time that Rod has broken and it’s been absolutely incredible. So I’ve, you know, they’ve been, been great. Yeah, so I’m, I’m starting off my, my 30th year this spring of guiding people fishing and Wow. You know, it’s, it’s been a lot of fun on the, on the gear end of things, getting to see everything go through. But we’re really fortunate that we have a lot of great manufacturers out there that, you know, what I tell folks, and I really strongly believe this, is that you need to go out and cast a rod and have it work for you. Carl (52m 36s): Just because I like any particular brand or model doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the, the best out there and you know, we try to give everything a really good shot and if someone falls in love with a piece of equipment and they love that rod and they like how it cast well that’s right for them. And you know, so we’re really fortunate that we work with a lot of brands, you know, whether that’s, you know, some of the big names like, you know, Orvis and Sage or whether that’s, you know, you know, some things, you know, we also have Amazing Rods from Echo and from Temple Fork. Yeah. All those different groups. Love it. You groups out there. Dave (53m 11s): Love it. Yeah. And I’m glad you mentioned Echo. And this segment is presented by Togiak River Lodge And we have to give a shout out to our, one of the places we’re going to this year, we’re gonna be chasing up in Alaska. We’re gonna be chasing Chinook is gonna be the focus and, and actually Echo is one of the partners on that event. So they’re gonna be, we’re gonna be giving away a big echo spay rod, which is gonna be great. Yeah. I, I think this day and age, you know, there’s so many great brands out there that they’re kind of, they’re kind of all good. But, but for you on that end, we talked about Minnesota today, you’ve obviously got a ton of resources. Where are you looking out, where would you like to go? I’m not sure if you do much travel, but outside of Minnesota are, are there anything on your bucket list places you’re looking at? Carl (53m 48s): You know, even though I love and get a huge chance to fish all around Minnesota all the time, you know, we just love covering ground and exploring both all around the inner mountain west. I’m a cutthroat addict, so I love getting out and fish fishing cutthroat, you know, we’re gonna be doing some both, some in the lower 48 and we’ll be poking around Ferny and British Columbia this summer as well. So just a lot of off grid, amazing cutthroat options. And you know, at the end of this week we’re gonna be spending some time fishing Puerto Rico for Tarpon for a while, so. Oh wow. You know, just, I’m a big saltwater fan. Carl (54m 30s): You know, it’s as a warm water and cold water guide up here in Minnesota. We have a huge amount of people during the winter that want to go and fish saltwater. So we, we do a lot of training people how to double haul, how to present. And what I tell people is that if you can learn to be a great small mount bass angr, you’re gonna do really well for bonefish. And, you know, a lot of, a lot of similarities. Gotta double haul in the drift boat for small melts sometimes And putting a double haul into the wind for bonefish is, is a good option too. Is key. Is key. So yeah, so we we travel a lot and love to tell stories about those locations so we, you know, you can keep an eye out and stuff for like American Fly Fishing Magazine we work with closely and I always have some good content with them about some of our adventures. Dave (55m 22s): Perfect. Well we bet We’ve talked about a ton of great, it sounds like Minnesota is, is amazing. And obviously we mentioned we, we were out there this year. Give us some downside. What is the downside of Minnesota? I guess you have the cold, other than that, it sounds like a pretty amazing place for, for fly fishing with all the species. But what, what would you say are, what keeps you, what keeps you there and what are some of the struggles there? Carl (55m 43s): You know, certainly on the, on the struggle end of things. Yeah. The cold, I’m, I’m not, that’s today at negative, at negative two, but that, that drives our fly tying in the middle of the winter and you know, and as I mentioned, one of those great locations down in the Driftless South branch, the Root River that’s open and fishable right now. Like yeah, that fishing, it’s Dave (56m 6s): Not negative too there right now probably Carl (56m 7s): It is not. And with the Spring Creeks they fish so well during the winter. It’s just amazing. The nymphing is top notch. What I really love about Minnesota is the vast diversity that you can go from fishing, migratory sail mons in Lake Superior tributaries to resident trout, to spring creeks, to warm water, to, you know, big toothy predators and have just these best, you know, like best shots at, you know, like you want a 50 inch muskie. You have that shot here. Dave (56m 39s): Yeah, you do. Carl (56m 40s): And so, you know that diversity is what I think people really, really love about Minnesota as a, as a destination and the ability to get into so much cool fishing. Dave (56m 52s): Love it. Carl (56m 53s): Love it. And you know, like, and I think really what I mentioned before, the other thing is the public access. Yeah. Which is some of the best in the entire country, Dave (57m 2s): Right? Yeah. In the public access. And we, we noticed that too as well. So, so this is great Carl. I think we’re gonna have to bring you back on maybe for a follow up and dig into a little bit more detail on some of this. This has been a great overview. You’ve got obviously a bunch of resources. We’ll put in the show notes. You know, anything else before we head outta here? We missed on Minnesota? You wanna make sure people are aware of, Carl (57m 21s): It’s hard to cover everything in Minnesota and you know, but we tried in fly fishing Minnesota as a book. There is so much that you can dig into with over a three 50 page book there that we didn’t even touch here. Yeah. And although I’d like to keep talking about it, I just tell people, you know, dig into the book, get the book and you know, and then go from there and you can explore throughout the state, the companion piece, Minnesota Fly Fishing maps, you know, we couldn’t include all the maps for Rivers and Streams that we wanted to in the big book ’cause it just got too large. And so we created a spiral bound travel companion piece with all of the river and stream maps plus all those rivers that we wanted to map but couldn’t find space for. Carl (58m 8s): And so that’s why we created that as a standalone separate travel piece so that people can find their way and, you know, get all that access information for rivers and streams around Minnesota. Dave (58m 20s): Love it. Love it. This is perfect. So, so we’ll leave it there and then remind us again the best place to your website where people can go check out all this information. Carl (58m 27s): Yep. People can find us online@namabinny.com. N nam me BIN i.com. You can always follow us on Instagram or Facebook and find us on social media as well. Dave (58m 39s): And what is the name of Binny? What somebody who doesn’t know that name? What, what is that? Where does that come from? Carl (58m 45s): That is the original Ojibwe or Anishinaabe name for the Sucker River here on the Minnesota North Shore that we have done a ton of conservation work that, you know, we’re sitting in the watershed of right here. So it’s our home water here, that’s Brook Trout River on the Minnesota North Shore. Dave (59m 3s): Gotcha. Perfect. All right Carl. Well thanks again for everything today and we’re excited to keep in touch with you. Hopefully we’ll see you up at the show, you know, eventually here and maybe get on the water with you as well. Thanks again. Carl (59m 14s): Sounds great. Thanks so much. It’s been a lot of fun. I’ll look forward to being in contact. Have a good one. Dave (59m 21s): All right, if you haven’t already, check in with Carl. Check in with the show coming up here and, and see what they have for availability. If you’re looking for a guide trip, they’ve got a lot going on. If you want a resource, probably the best resource out there, check in with Carl and ask him what they could do for you right now. All right, we don’t have a lot of time here because we got a big day, but I just want to say if you get a chance, check out youtube@wetlyswing.com slash YouTube. We’re gonna be posting more videos there as we go. There’s gonna be lots of interesting sneak peeks and behind the scenes stuff as well. So subscribe to us and follow us there if you wanna keep this conversation going further. And big shout out to Togiak River Lodge. We’re kicking off the big event next week. Dave (1h 0m 3s): We’re gonna be giving away a spot to Togiak, but also we’re gonna be planning this trip. If you’re interested in going to Togiak River Lodge and fishing for King Salmon with me this year, send me an email, dave@welifeswing.com and I’ll let you know about availability. Got a small group of people going there, so this one’s gonna go fast. But if you’re interested, check in with me and we’ll get you the details. All right. That’s all I have for you. I hope you have a great morning. I hope you have a wonderful afternoon or if it’s evening, wherever you’re in the world, even if that’s on the other side of the ocean. I’m glad you stuck around to the very end and check in with me if you haven’t already, but have a great one, we’ll talk to you soon. 2 (1h 0m 39s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing.com.