767 | Fly Fishing in the UK with Peter Cockwill – Stillwater Fishing, Chalk Streams, Fly Shop Stories

Dave (2s): Today we sit down with UK fly fishing legend Peter Cockwell, for a wide ranging chat on small still waters, chalk streams, and the decades long friendship with our friend Jim Tini. Peter shares his origin story insights into stocking trout with simple flies and why you shouldn’t overlook that shallow downwind bank when fish and still waters. We’ve even got a backcountry story. This one is jam packed with wisdom, humor, and lots of old stories. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Peter Cockwell returns. With more insight from the Stillwater side of the fly fishing world, we dive into fishing Clearwater with minimal flies, using wind to your advantage and what and how to fish without a boat on still waters. Dave (54s): Plus you’re gonna hear why fly shops mattered long before the internet and what it’s like to chase steelhead with Jim Tini. This one’s good, so let’s get into it. Here he is, Peter Cockwell. How you doing Peter? Peter (1m 7s): Fine, thank you. I’m in sunny Hampshire in Southern England. Dave (1m 11s): It’s sunny. It’s sunny. That’s always interesting. I always think of it as a similar weather pattern, right? Because I think latitude wise you guys are pretty close, but Peter (1m 18s): You’re right Dave, it should be the same. But we’ve had this easterly high pressure with cold winds, but blazing sunshine every day. Dave (1m 27s): Wow. Wow. So is that probably, it seems like sunshine’s not always the best for fishing, right? Do you find that the The sunshine is kind of not great? Peter (1m 36s): Yeah. When it’s bright and cold and you can’t defeat that old saying can you, that when the wind is in the east, the fish bite least. Dave (1m 43s): Oh, there you go. I like that. Okay. That’s it. Awesome. And we get the east wind out here as well. You know, we, well, Jim Tini is the person that, you know, I’ve heard your name before, but Jim was really the one that connected us and you know, he’s an old friend of the family, so it’s cool to connect and we’ll probably talk about some Jim stories as well as we go here. But I wanted to get into, today I wanted to talk Stillwaters, ’cause I know you’ve got some, you’ve written about it, you have a book there and maybe even specifically again down to smaller steel waters and all that. So we’re gonna talk about that today. But before we get there, let’s hear your story about fly fishing. You know, did you get into it early? What’s your story? What’s your first memory? Peter (2m 23s): Well my father taught me to fish, but that was for what you would call trash fish or course fish as we call them, when I was about five. And then my next door neighbor, I was trope fishing at the time as well, but when I was around about 10 and catching lots of fish on little tiny spinners and things. And he said to me, I think it’s time you learn to fly fish. And that was that. So from 10 onwards that’s what I’ve been doing. Quite interesting really, because you, it you may be slightly puzzling for me ’cause I’ve, I’ve got a Cornish accent. I come from the southwest of England from Cornwall. So my voice is a little bit different to a lot of other people. Dave (3m 1s): Gotcha. Where, where’s the, in England, where is the best fishing? Is there good fishing, great fishing all over the country or where, what do you think? Peter (3m 10s): We’ve still got a lot of wild fish and there’s no doubt about that. And in streams and rivers and as you go farther north into some of the lakes and locks and stuff up into Scotland, yeah, we’ve got some very good fishing in fact. But an awful lot of our fishing is for stock fish, be it on the choke streams or the smaller still waters. Dave (3m 29s): And is that kind of how, we’ve heard a little bit about that, but are the still waters a place where typically it’s, those are still kind of public access or are the still waters also private? A lot of those Peter (3m 41s): You get both. Most of the still waters are what we would call a data fishery. A a public water you’d pay by the day to fish them. But yeah, so of course there’s private ones. And where we are now, where I’m speaking from is a place in Hampshire called Deaver Springs, which was one of the premier day ticket fisheries for stocking with large reared fish. But the fishery owner has now made it private just for himself and his various companies to have what we call corporate days and for his family to be able to come and fish. Dave (4m 13s): Right. There you go. And you’ve spent, I’m guessing, some time around the world. Have you, you’ve been to the us what have those trips been like when you’ve been over here? Have you been over here a number of times? Peter (4m 23s): I have, yeah. And it started with a trip over to sea, your friend Jim Tini, I think some, something like 38 years ago and I’ve been coming at least every year since then. And going to Alaska as well every year. Dave (4m 37s): Oh yeah. Peter (4m 38s): It’s all, it’s all Jimmy’s fault. I blame him entirely. Dave (4m 40s): That nice. That’s right. Yeah. What was your, with, with Jim? What was your, what was that first trip you guys did? Peter (4m 45s): Yeah, that was interesting because you know, Jim had a connection with a couple of people in the music world, one of which was called Gary Brooker, who wrote the song Whiter Shade of Pale. And Gary and I had been fishing friends for a long time and one day he said to me, Pete, would you like to go to Oregon? And I thought, do, I don’t know what to say ’cause I’ve never really been anywhere in my life. And, and he said, come on, we’ll go, I know this friend out there, Jim Tini and you’ll get on with him. So before I knew quite what was happening, I was out meeting Jim and that was the start of a completely new life for me. Dave (5m 21s): So that was the first trip over here. And then, and a Jim, of course is known for catching a lot of different fish, but especially like steelhead and, and some of those salmon and stuff like that. Did you guys do a few steelhead trips? Peter (5m 32s): Yes, we did. Most, mostly in Oregon and I, I got my first one on the Clackamas. Yep. Dave (5m 38s): Do you remember that first steelhead pretty well? Peter (5m 40s): Oh yes. Dave (5m 42s): Yeah. What, what was that? Was that, ’cause that probably, I’m guessing was a, probably a decent sized fish. Had you caught some larger fish in that ray, anything close before getting that steelhead? What was the closest fish you had caught? Peter (5m 53s): Well, in terms of size to a steelhead you mean? Dave (5m 55s): Yeah. Peter (5m 56s): Yeah. I mean I’d, I’d caught some big fish over here in the UK because as I say, we do the stocked fishery system. But in terms of wild fish, no. It was the biggest wild fish I’d ever caught. Dave (6m 6s): Gotcha. Well let’s hear on a little bit on the Stillwater. I’m, I’m interested in this ’cause we, you know, definitely talk still waters. Phil Rolly does our Lato Zone podcast and talks a lot about that. But you know, I think you probably bring a different perspective, especially because there’s different techniques and and stuff like that. But what is that like if you are, you know, heading to a new lake, you know, what is like if somebody’s out there that may newer to distill waters, what are you telling them to kind get prepared a little bit for a still water and is there a big difference between a smaller still water and a larger still water? Peter (6m 39s): There is a difference. Yeah. ’cause it does depend on the, sometimes on the size of the fish that are being stocked. We’ve got larger still waters up to several thousand acres and they’re, they generally are stocked with fish of around two pounds or so, which then in some instances can grow on very, very well indeed. But the smaller waters can be stocked with fish from of very varying sizes. I mean, where I’m speaking from here, we do rear rainbows and stuff and browns up to maybe 20 pounds if we can. Dave (7m 9s): Wow, okay. So yeah, so the, these fish, that’s the cool thing about the stillwaters right? Is that you can get some pretty large fish and is what does that look like over there on the, on the lakes? Do you guys get, you know, I’m just thinking like growth wise, I always think of kind of the Eastern Oregon over here or places where you get a lot of production and, and you know, is it the same thing there? You get a lot of bug life in some of those lakes. Peter (7m 31s): Yeah, again, it depends very much on the water, doesn’t it? But where I am here in, in chalk country, it’s, it is very rich, the water. So we get very good OMI hatches and plenty of dams or flies and various mayfly patterns. Dave (7m 46s): And maybe describe that again, you know, the chalk streams on why those are so productive. Is that a certain type of, maybe describe the chalk stream first and why they’re so productive. Peter (7m 55s): Okay. Well the, they always reckon that about 80% of the world’s chalk streams are in England. And chalk is the base medium for this part of the world, shall we say. So when it, it rains here, the water goes into the ground and then comes out in the form of springs and whatever to make the rivers, so rivers here in this part of the country don’t flood because they don’t get direct runoff into them very much. So they tend to run out of the ground. The water’s very, very clear, the high pH around about 8.2 and very, very productive for insect life. Dave (8m 28s): Gotcha. So it’s kinda like spring creeks, essentially like a Spring Creek. Yeah. Peter (8m 33s): I mean you’ve probably heard of River’s called the river test and the river itching. Yeah. Very famous worldwide. And I mean, where I, I am here the, the stream that runs past the fishery enters the test about another mile away. Dave (8m 45s): Gotcha. So yeah, you’re in a, you’re in a famous, lots of famous waters are in, in the area where you live now. Peter (8m 51s): Yeah. Whether one can get to fish them of course is another matter altogether, right? Because they’re the premier fisheries and Well, I used to run a fly shop for 30 odd years, a bit like your dad really. And I, I always remember people would come into my shop and they’d say, you know, they, they want to fish these famous rivers to test in the itching, but it’s far too expensive and why can’t ordinary people go to fish them? And I’d say, well, you know, they are the premier rivers, they are fantastic places to be. And they happen to be in the southeast of England where most of the money is, therefore they’re gonna cost, and if you owned a quarter of a mile of the bank, you wouldn’t let me fish it for say, $10 a day. Peter (9m 33s): You take the going rate. Dave (9m 34s): Yeah, definitely. That’s, you know, it’s a, it’s a business right there. People are making some money. Exactly. So southeast of, and you’re essentially, you’re kind of southeast of London, right? You’re southeast, you’re down, I guess is Wales still considered more kind of southeast? It’s Peter (9m 49s): On the west Dave (9m 49s): Or west, sorry, sorry, that’s west. Yeah. So you’re in the southeast of, so you’re southeast of London? Peter (9m 55s): Yeah, almost do direct south. Really? Yeah. Dave (9m 58s): Oh, direct south. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, that’s right. So that makes sense. So, so you’re close to London, so there’s gonna be more money there, but are there places you can go and fish chalk streams where it’s not, doesn’t cost as much money? Peter (10m 8s): There’s a few in the north of England, but then again where they’re, you know, because it’s chalk water, it’s gonna be club operated or privately owned and it’s gonna cost in the main And we, we have a different system here than you in that you have in essence public water, don’t you? But here it’s almost all rivers are privately owned in that the River bank is obviously got a, a river bank owner, but they own to the center of the stream, it’s called riparian ownership. So the river itself is half owned by each respective bank of the whoever owns the banks. So the pub can’t just get there. Dave (10m 48s): Do they own the water or could somebody float down in like a, in a boat, a small boat? Peter (10m 53s): It does happen, but not many of the rivers have a rite of passage of, of boats for like canoes or kayaks and stuff. And you wouldn’t be able to fish from them on someone else’s water, shall we say? Dave (11m 5s): Yeah, you wouldn’t, okay. Yeah. ’cause that’s the one unique thing here. We definitely have private waters here too. We, we hear a lot about Colorado, you know how, you know, there’s private land and you know, there’s, and you can’t actually even walk in the stream, but if you had a boat, the water in the US is all public, you know, it’s owned by the public, so you could actually float by in some of these areas even though you couldn’t walk ’em, you know what I mean? So Peter (11m 28s): Yeah, that’s what I’ve heard. So you could you actually stop and fish or do you have to keep on moving? Dave (11m 33s): Yeah. So you couldn’t yeah, you wouldn’t, some places yeah, you couldn’t anchor, so then you’d have to keep moving. Yep, that’s right. So yeah, it’s interesting. The, the law is, is interesting to different countries, but it makes sense ’cause I mean I, you see why UK’s obviously an or country, you know, it’s, things are different there. And we have actually plenty of private pay to play waters too here. It’s just, there’s Peter (11m 55s): Yeah, I Dave (11m 55s): Know you do. Yeah. Yeah. I think there’s also a lot of public, but, but no, it’s interesting. And, and then on the still waters you guys have there, are there abundant still waters kind of as abundant as the chalk streams? Peter (12m 5s): Oh yeah, very much so. And a lot of them are manmade either for water empowerment, for water supply or, or just purely for aesthetics or for directly just for fishing. Dave (12m 18s): Gotcha. What is the interest that you mentioned about the fly shop as I grew up around a fly shop in my dad’s shop. What was it like, how did you come to be owning running a fly shop? Well, Peter (12m 29s): There was no clear cut decision as to why I did that. It was one of those things that it sort of happened without any sensible thought in it all really. And, but it, it was fun ’cause I, I did it initially with a mix of what we call course fishing and fly fishing. And then in time went on a bit and I thought, well, you know, my thing is fly fishing. And I was already doing an awful lot of work for magazines and writing books and stuff, and I thought, let’s make this a, a fly shop. But to be perfectly honest, if I’d had any brains at all, it would’ve been a, a shop just for carp fishing. Dave (13m 4s): Oh, really? Is carp the main course fish? Peter (13m 8s): Yeah, it’s, it’s the biggest element of fishing over here by a long, long way. Dave (13m 12s): Yeah. And for fishing. And now is that just a mix of fly fishing and conventional fishing? Peter (13m 18s): It’s conventional fishing with bait. It’s fly fishing has, has developed here for carp over the last probably 25 years or so. But a lot of those types of fisheries we call ’em, course fisheries won’t let you fly fish on them. The reason being that the carp angler doesn’t like you fly fishing because you are very successful. So therefore he will get it banned. Dave (13m 44s): Oh wow. Gotcha. So in carp over there, are people fishing with bait to eat them? Peter (13m 49s): No, no, no. It’s strictly catch and release on carp. Oh, it is. And Dave (13m 52s): For Peter (13m 53s): Conventional. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Very strict on catch and release. And I mean, many of these fish are extremely valuable, much more so than the trope we rear. And some of them, they do live to incredible ages and they’re, they’re so well known that people would target individual waters to catch an individual fish. And when they’ve caught that one, they’ll then go on to try another one or another fishery. Wow. Dave (14m 19s): Wow. That’s awesome. Yeah, and car. And so yeah, I’m not even totally sure what, do you know the, like native range of carp? Aren’t they, are they more from Asia or where, do you know where Peter (14m 29s): The Yes, yes, they were, they were allegedly brought to this country by the monks to put into their ponds on the monasteries as a food supply. Oh, Dave (14m 36s): As food. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. So that’s, that’s, and then, and it’s cool because I mean, we just did a carp episode with a guest who was in Arizona, you know, kind of talking about fishing, the, the canals of Arizona, right. And where it’s 120 degrees and stuff and car amazing because they’re so, I don’t know what the word is, resilient. They can live in kind of the craziest places. I’m guessing it’s the same thing there. Are you guys fishing them in places that are super warm, like diverse? What’s that look like? Peter (15m 5s): Yeah, they, they’re much more tolerant of low oxygen levels and, and higher water temperature. Very, very much different to the trout. So, you know, here now we’re just at the stage of waiting for the waters to warm up a little bit, to be able to get after the carp on the fly, because in the winter months they, they go quite topi and they’re hard to get to take on the fly. But as the temperature warms up, they, they’re much more keen. They’re, they’re feeding more heavily. But you see also here we do, we’re allowed to do chumming for them where we throw bait into the water to indu induce the fish to either take the hook bait or to get them up on the surface on floating bait so we can get to fish fly patterns of various sorts to try to get them on the fly. Peter (15m 49s): Oh Dave (15m 49s): Wow. Okay. So you can chum up with bait. Peter (15m 51s): Yeah, no, I know it’s not allowed in in your country. Dave (15m 54s): Yeah, no, I don’t think, I don’t think that is allowed in most places, but No, it sounds like fun. So you’re, you’re baiting ’em, getting ’em up. And, and so you mentioned on your shop you would’ve been smart to have the carp, you know, focused shop. But what was your shop like back in the day when you walked in there? What, what would you see take, what was that picture? What’d that look like? Peter (16m 12s): Oh yeah, I mean, once I’d made the decision to go fly fishing only that’s, that was it. That’s what I really did. I, I did fly time materials quite heavily. And then obviously different rod band, rod brands I did obviously did Jim Tini lines. I was a hardy agent. I did Able reels, I did Temple Fork for a while. You know, I did lots of different things and I was one of the first people to do some of those brands in the uk. Dave (16m 37s): Yeah. So Hardy And what, what was the gears that you had the fly shop open? Peter (16m 41s): That’s a good question. I closed it about eight years ago and I ran it for 31 years. So it’s okay Dave (16m 46s): About eight years ago. Yeah. Peter (16m 47s): Yeah. I mean, I closed it just before COVID, so I, it was probably a good time ’cause I think I would’ve been defeated by the internet and the way things were changing, so it just worked out Okay. Really. Dave (17m 1s): Trout Routes by Onyx is built for fly anglers who want better intel without spending hours digging for the information, you’ll get access to public land maps, stream access points, regulations, and even road and trail maps all in one place. It’s become my go-to app for scouting new trips. You can check ’em out right now. Go to wetly swing.com/trout routes and download the app today. Stonefly Nets build handcrafted landing nets that are as tough as they are. Beautiful. They’re shaped, sanded, and finished by hand from premium hardwoods. You’ll feel the difference the moment you land your first fish light in the hands strong at the hoop and made by someone who knows what it means to earn your trust. You can head over to stonefly nets.com right now and see what they’ve got in the shop today. Dave (17m 45s): That’s stonefly nets.com. Yeah, so really actually, yeah, more likely you started in the 80, like the late 1980s somewhere in there. Peter (17m 55s): Yeah, yeah. Round about then. Yes. Dave (17m 57s): Gotcha. Yeah, so that was about the time. Perfect. So, and was the shop when you started that you had already written, maybe talk about that, like how did you, you know, what was the sum of the, the articles? What were you focused on then? How, how’d you get, because you are, I mean, known as kind of a famous person out in the fly fishing space. How, what did you know? How’d you build that reputation? Peter (18m 17s): Yeah, it was, it was always a fun one that, because I’d, I’d, you know, I’d been catching a few fairly big fish and then your name sort of gets around a little bit. And I, I’d never thought about writing. I mean, I’m not very smart at all, but when, when I was fishing a, a large reservoir, a concrete bowl, we call them a big concrete manmade reservoir near Heathrow airport, actually called the Queen Mother Reservoir, been fish in there a lot. And it was a, in those days it was stocked with 12 inch fish, which is, is impossible now because of the Coran problem. But it was a rich water and the fish grew quite well and I wanted to try to catch the better ones. So, you know, I did that for a long time and I was catching some quite good fish, but I’d made up a, a tandem hook link to be able to fish a large black lure basically. Peter (19m 5s): And I’d used a bit of braided nylon and stuff to make the hook link and it seemed interesting. So I wrote a little story about it and sent it to one of the magazines when we had from some, for many, many years called Trope Fisherman Magazine. And they published it and you know, I thought, oh, that was fun, you know, I did that and I thought no more of it. And then at some other date I happened to meet the editor of the magazine on a fishery and he said to me, have you got anything else? No. And he said, well, why don’t you write about this, you know, about this catching of the bigger fish that you seem to be good at. So I did. And that’s what happened before I knew what I was doing, I was writing. Dave (19m 44s): Yeah. Wow. And it sounds like in the, the shop kind of came to be, it sounds like a lot of this stuff was just, you know, naturally you didn’t plan it, it just kind of happened. Is that how a lot of the stuff happened in fly fishing for you? Yeah, Peter (19m 56s): Absolutely. Dave, there was no clear cut plan at all. It just sort of sort of happened. Yeah, Dave (20m 2s): Yeah. Has fly fishing always been, I mean, obviously it’s kind of where it all started. You’re in the, that’s kind of where, you know, I think I would love to get over there. I think probably a lot of people would love to fish that area just because it’s kind of the, you know, the, it’s not just the birthplace of fly fishing in the us it’s the world, right? I mean, that’s kind of where it started. Peter (20m 19s): It is really, yeah. It’s certainly dryly and stuff. Dave (20m 22s): Yeah. Well, I wanna hear about this, the book, and I’m not sure how many books, if you’ve written a few books, but you wrote one on Stillwaters. How did that one, what, what was that process like? Was that quite a while ago? And, and talk about like what, what that book covers? Peter (20m 36s): Yeah. I, I, I’ve done three on fishing, the small still waters as we call on these smaller stocked waters I’ve done, it was a, you know, just upgrade in it over the years. So I’ve actually had seven books published now and one on fly tying all those sorts of things that you do in this fly fishing world. And yeah, it’s been fun to do. It really has. I, I enjoy it. Dave (20m 60s): What is the, the Stillwater book, like the small, talk about that. What did you cover? Was that like a full on 1 0 1 from start to finish from anybody who maybe like beginners or was it set for a different level? Peter (21m 12s): It’s really set for, so you can get into it by reading everything there. But I tried to put enough into inspire somebody who’s been into it for a while to think a little more deeply about it. I mean, it’s relatively straightforward in fly fishing to learn to cast and cast out a fly cast, a a fluffy thing, whatever it may be. And hopefully a trope grabs hold. It’s not too complicated, but, you know, if you want to fish imitatively, then yeah, you need to think more about it. I mean, for example, yesterday on this fishery here, we did what we call a corporate day, which is for the fishery owner for his different businesses. So I’m teaching 14 people who’ve never fly fished, get them casting, get them operate in a fly rod. Peter (21m 53s): And with the fish that are stocked into the lake, there’s a pretty darn good chance they’re gonna catch something. And if that happens, I look on it as yet another life ruined. Dave (22m 3s): Right? Yeah. Is is fly fishing, can you tell there, is it still, you know, gaining popularity? Is it losing popularity? What, what does that look like? Any idea? Peter (22m 13s): There’s a lot of people coming into it every year, but the numbers participating seem to be about stable, but they are more, it’s pretty obvious it’s the older generation. We don’t get the kids into it that much. Dave (22m 26s): Yeah, you don’t. And that’s the, you know, and I guess it’s similar here, although I think we have, I think part of the, the thing that happened or we talk about is the old white guy syndrome, right? Like that’s what fly fishing is, was known for, right. These, the old white guy, you know, and the kids didn’t really see it. I think now in the US you’re hearing more, and I’m not sure of the statistics on it, but you’re hearing more about these kids that are getting into it and they’re doing different things. They’re not just fishing for trout, they’re fishing, like I said, they’re fishing for carp, they’re fishing for, you know, you name the species. It seems like now you know, any species you can catch on the fly. Do you find that in the UK it’s still mostly trout? Carp, there’s just a few species that are focused on Peter (23m 8s): Yes. There’s not many people pursue the other species, shall we say. Not, not specifically. Anyway, pike are pursued on the fly quite a bit. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah, we’ve got some, we’ve got some very good pike. And their saltwater fly fishing is, is increasing, particularly for the, our most common fisher on the shore. The bass, it looks like your striper, but it doesn’t have the stripes on its sides. Oh, Dave (23m 29s): Okay. It’s like a strip. Okay. Peter (23m 31s): Yeah. And, and that’s very popular here. They don’t get as big as your stripers. But you know, that’s a, that’s a growth thing without a doubt. And the weird thing is, over the last few years that blue fin tuna have come back off the British coasts. Oh wow. And they, they, they disappeared many years ago. They were caught in the North Sea, which is a big sea between England and the continent. When the herring shoals were there and people were going out with what we would call now antiquated gear fishing for these massive tuna. And then the herring shoals were over exploited and that was it. The tuna were gone. But the last few years they’ve come back again and now they’re all around our coasts. Dave (24m 8s): Wow. And are people fishing for the, these are, these are big fish, right? Peter (24m 12s): These are big, yeah. They are fishing for them. But with conventional, shall we just call it tuna gear? I’ve, I haven’t heard of anybody risking it on the fly yet. And that to me, I would’ve thought would be risking, I don’t think I’d want to hook one of those things on a fly rod. Yeah, Dave (24m 27s): Right. No, definitely not. What about Atlantic salmon? We’ve heard some stuff about that. Is that something you’ve ever tried out there in that area? Peter (24m 34s): Yeah, I mean, I was lucky where I lived in Cornwall with, say, down in the southwest of England, there, there was still a lot of wild fish in the streams and that, albeit mostly brown trout and some sea trout, you know, the, the sea running version of the brown trout. But there was also atlantic salmon around and often tell the story that I probably said to you once before when we’re with Jimmy, that I have a passion for grayling. But we’d fish for grayling in the winter months on the headwaters of some of the rivers down in Cornwall fishing for grayling. And this would’ve been when I was still a teenager and salmon were confounded nuisance, Dave (25m 11s): Really? Peter (25m 12s): That sounds stupid to say. But this was their, the salmon spawning time. And they would be up the rivers in the winter and there would be in some of the pools, so many of the things that you couldn’t run, say a little red worm or something like that, through on float fishing bobber gear to catch the grayling. ’cause they, the salmon were in the way. Wow. Dave (25m 32s): People Peter (25m 32s): Don’t believe me on it. But within a very few years they were gone. Dave (25m 37s): They were So what year, when they were, what year was that roughly when they were, you know, stock? Peter (25m 43s): This would’ve been in in in the sixties? Yeah, Dave (25m 45s): In the sixties. Okay. And then, and then, then within a few years they were gone. And that was, do you know what was the reason behind that? There’s Peter (25m 51s): Lots of complicated theories, but I think an awful lot of it in those early days was pollution on the rivers impacting the fry. Yeah. And it, if you don’t get babies, you don’t get adults, do Dave (26m 1s): You? No, no. So just water quality and all the impacts of just human population growth and everything. Yeah. Peter (26m 7s): Yeah. I think silage pollution back in those days was a big factor. Yeah, Dave (26m 12s): That’s right. Okay. Peter (26m 12s): But I mean, at, at that time I used, I started work for what we call our river board, which is now the environment agency. And I’m, I’m really a water chemist and fisheries biologist. That’s what I really am. And I, you know, used to fish these streams and we would catch these little baby salmon par and small brown trout and things on wet fly trout. Never got more than about eight ounces, but we’d catch lots of them. And one of my great friends in, in fly fishing, he, he went on to university, which I, I didn’t, but he then worked for the same river board that I did and he then did the river survey work on these streams, which I had done many, many years before on stretches that we used to fish together as lads. Peter (26m 56s): And he said he’d go through with the electric stunning gear and he said there aren’t any there now Pete, those streams where we were catching 50, 60 little fish in a day, we weren’t finding any. Wow. Dave (27m 7s): Yeah. Peter (27m 7s): So thing things, things happened quite dramatically. Dave (27m 10s): Yeah. And I think they’ve been, and obviously changes can be made and I think there are some examples of where the populations have come back, although I haven’t heard lots of great things of recent. Right. I think there’s still some struggles out there. Peter (27m 23s): There are struggles, but yeah, there, there are things recovering I think, I think we’ve got problems with sewage pollution here quite badly. But yeah. And a lot of places the fish species and numbers have recovered quite well and you, you said about Atlantic salmon just now and they, they were on a pretty serious decline Right, right around the country. But there’s, last couple of years there’s been a glimmer of hope that there may be a slight recovery. Dave (27m 47s): Nice. Well we’ll wait to hear on that. Let’s take it back on the Stillwater a little bit there. So, and I wanna focus, ’cause I’m interested, I don’t wanna miss this on some of your background with the book and everything, but let’s just say we’re, we’re going to a Stillwater, maybe it’s a new Stillwater, you’re heading out to a new Stillwater. What are you telling somebody or what are you doing to get prepared to kind of find the fish, to know what to use, what, what does that look like? Kind of the, the first steps? Peter (28m 11s): Yeah, that’s a fun one because I, you know, when I was working for the magazine I did features on different fisheries right around the country. And so I saw, let’s say around about 200 different fisheries over those years of writing. And we’d go to, and I’ve gotta get a result on the day I’ve got a photographer with me, I’ve got to catch. So we get the pictures and whatever failure is not an option. Yep, Dave (28m 37s): Yep. Peter (28m 37s): And it was quite fun really. ’cause my wife always used to come with me. And one of the days she said, what is it you see? She said, you talk to the cameraman. She said, you talk to the fishery owner, you talk to the fishery anglers. She said, you never take your eyes off the water. And then you say to the camera guy, okay, let’s get going. And you go off somewhere on that lake, that small pond, whatever it is, you catch some fish, you get the pictures done and your job’s done and what is it you see? And I thought that was a really, really interesting question ’cause I hadn’t thought about that before. So you are asking me the same thing really. What do I see? Dave (29m 16s): Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. What, what do you see? What, what is, because stillwaters I think are a little bit daunting because you look out at ’em and it’s just like one straight flat body of water, you know what I mean? Yeah. And you don’t see much but, but what do you see differently? How do you look at the lake differently when you’re trying to figure out like, you know, where the fish, where to start fishing all that? Peter (29m 35s): Well, before a trip I would have been thinking and watching the weather and I want to know if the weather’s stable, if the fish are happy with under stable conditions and also which direction the wind has been blowing. And if it’s been the same wind direction for two or three days, I’ve got a pretty good idea where the fish are gonna be. ’cause they almost always end up on the dent down wind shore, especially if they’re newly introduced stock fish. And most people can’t cast into the wind. So that’s fine by me ’cause I can, so I know where the fish are so I’ll catch them. But also I would be looking at the water birds, see where their diving to where their food is on the weed beds and the insect where they were like likely to be. Peter (30m 18s): Where the deeper parts are, where the fish may be. If the temperature is varying a lot, just looking all the time to see what’s going on. Is there a hatch? Is something happening. Lots of little factors you have to put together. Yeah. Dave (30m 31s): What is it on lakes? What are the over there, what are the common bugs that are pretty diverse? Selection of different insects? Peter (30m 39s): Yeah. An awful lot of it is is Eds the, what we call, we call them buzzers, you know, which is a really the strangest name when you try to explain to somebody, because the buzzer pupa, it doesn’t buzz, it’s the adult insect that buzzes. So why do we call it a buzzer? Dave (30m 56s): Right, right. You don’t even fish, you rarely fish the adult. Right, Peter (30m 60s): Exactly. ’cause when it hatches, it takes off so quickly the adult isn’t on the surface for very long at all the hatching stage. Yeah, that’s great. The emerger stage. But the actual adult, no it’s, it’s up and gone. Yeah, Dave (31m 11s): It’s up and gone. Are you fishing out on these smaller lakes typically? Is this off the shore or are you using boats? Peter (31m 18s): It’s mostly off the shore. On a water of say 10 acres and above, you’ll sometimes get access for a boat and sometimes a float tube. Dave (31m 26s): Yeah, that’s right. What, what is the, and is that the size? If you say what do you consider a small stream? How, how small does it have to be? 10 acres? Is that, do you have a number? Peter (31m 35s): Yeah, the smaller waters are generally reckoned to be under 50 acres. Under 50. But ty typically they’ll be in the five to 1520 acres size. Yeah. Dave (31m 45s): Okay. Five to 15, 20. And so this is where, you know, this is cool. So if you’re fishing off the bank, which is actually a good place to be because that’s the littoral zone. Right. That’s where the shallow area we’ve, we’ve talked to a few, you know, we mentioned Phil Roy with the Littoral zone, Denny Rickards. You know, they talk a lot about getting into the lare zone, the places where fish are coming in to feed. Do you also find that that shore, the shawl area is the most important? Or How are you, are you hitting off of drops in, you know, where are the fish actually holding? Peter (32m 15s): Yeah, fish will always hold on a drop off. You know, if you’ve got deeper areas and stuff. But like I say it, that wind factor is a big thing in it. And if the down wind shore is relatively shallow, doesn’t matter, that’s where they’ll be. People say that it’s because all the food is blown that way. But I mean that’s, that’s nothing to do with it. If all the food were blown on that way, then, then one shoreline would’ve all the food and there wouldn’t be any food anywhere else in the lake. Well that doesn’t happen. Sure, sure. Insects do get blown to the downwind shore, the hatching ones. But what it actually is that the wind will induce an underwater current. So where the water’s turning over on the downwind shore, there is an underwater current and Stillwater fish love the feel of a current, however slight it may be. Peter (33m 0s): And that’s where they are. They’re happy, they love it. Dave (33m 3s): Gotcha. That’s why the wind’s so key. So it’s actually stirring up and you like the down where it’s pushing in because that’s where you’re getting the most stirring up of insects. Peter (33m 12s): Yeah. And I mean typically I would fish off the bank and stand several feet back from the bank and I would expect them the, the take to come right at my feet. Whereas most people like to wade in and cast as far as they can ’cause no, they’ve just trampled all over where the fish are likely to be and scared ’em away. Dave (33m 29s): Right, right. So don’t jump out in the water, stay on the bank and, and on the bank. They’re probably good to be stealthy and try to hide yourself from being spotted. Is is that also important? Peter (33m 40s): It is important, yeah. Particularly for wild fish. I think the stocked fish not quite the same. And I mean, I became quite notorious for wearing brightly colored clothing, you know, nice bright shirts and stuff and people say you’re scaring the fish. Yeah. Okay, well I don’t have any trouble catching. What’s your problem? Yeah. But the reason I, I wore stuff like that was so, it, it looks great in photos. Yeah. Dave (34m 5s): Right, right. It definitely sticks out Peter (34m 7s): And you know, that’s a large part of making success of writing, isn’t it? Get the photos right. Dave (34m 11s): Oh yeah, yeah. Photos. So, so who is taking your pho? Is that something, are you a photographer yourself or who is getting the good photos? Peter (34m 20s): I am. I’m just a snapper really. But the guy I’ve worked with for well over 30 years was called Peter and he’s a extremely famous fly tire. He is written many, many books on fly tying and he’s a brilliant photographer. So yeah, we worked together for years and years. Dave (34m 38s): What was his name? Peter (34m 39s): Peter Gather Cole. Dave (34m 40s): Gather Cole. Okay. Gotcha. Perfect. Okay, so, so you had, that’s pretty nice. You had somebody taking the photos and then, you know, back to the lake. So you’re, maybe talk about that a little bit. What is the bugs? So you got Chrons, that’s probably, it sounds like that’s number one. What, what are some of the other insects that you have there? And then How are you fishing? You know, How are you fishing those CIDs and, and the other bugs Peter (35m 1s): U usually with a floating line and I mean a CID only moves up and down in the water column. It doesn’t travel along in, in the water. It can, it doesn’t free swim shall we say. It can only go up and down. So the best ways to fish them or their blood worm I imitation is dead slow or stop very, very slow. Retrieve s sadly they work when they’re could retrieved quickly, but I dunno what the fish think they are then. Yeah, Dave (35m 27s): Right. ’cause these bugs are, these carotids are, and why is it just up and down? They’re not going side to side at all. Peter (35m 35s): No, I mean that’s all they can do is go up and down in the water column. They, they don’t have a means of propulsion, like a mayfly nim for a damsel fly nim, but they don’t have that ability. Dave (35m 44s): Right. So they’re down at the bottom and then they’re just kind of Peter (35m 47s): Up They come. Dave (35m 48s): Yeah, up they come. So you have to slowly, and, and so when you’re stripping that, what does that strip retrieve? What does that look like? What kind of retrieve is it? Peter (35m 57s): Usually it’s, it’s what I would call a figure eight retrieve where it’s using your fingers to very, very slow retrieve. Dave (36m 2s): Yep. How do you find the, the depth of the fish when you’re, you know, if you’re using that figure eight, how do you are, are you just covering a lot of depths of the water? Are they, are they sitting at certain depths and then you’re trying to target ’em there? Peter (36m 16s): Yeah, that’s an interesting one Dave, because a lot of fisheries here, you’re allowed to fish more than one fly. So people will often fish with three flies on the leader. And so with doing that, if you’ve got a more weighted fly on the point, you can explore different depths and find out where the fish are. But if the rule is single fly only, well then it’s up to you to work out what depth they are. And that’s why you let the fly sink deeper, retrieve a little quicker sometimes just to find out where they are. Dave (36m 47s): Today’s episode is brought to you by Grand Teton Fly Fishing. They’re a top guide, service and fly shop with access to some of the most prized waters in western Wyoming. And their guide team brings together over 200 years of local experience. Their goal is simple to share these amazing resources and help you experience the thrill of a native cutthroat rising to a single dry fly all in the shadows of the Tetons. It’s the kind of experience that stays with you and fosters a deep appreciation for the waters we love. You can check ’em out right now at Grand teton fly fishing.com and if you book a trip, let them know you heard about them through this podcast today. Yeah, I think that’s always a struggle is finding the fish and you know, but I think that you broke it down a little bit is that first off on the bank, they might be right at your feet. Dave (37m 34s): So like it’s always good to start right there. Are you casting when they’re at your feet? Are you casting kind of parallel to the shore light? How are you getting or you know, talk about that. How, how, when you come up to a lake, what’s your first cast look like? Peter (37m 47s): Usually be straight out and then let the breeze pick up the line and let it swing more into the shore. So you get a little bit of a belly develops in the line. It’s actually fish in these ides is is quite fun. If you’ve got a, if the fish are feeding them, we on them. Well and you can cast out across the breeze. So you know, you know when the wind induces a like a little belly in the line and a floating line. Yeah. And the take can be really dramatic. I mean everything just tightens up and shoots away and people say, oh yeah, fantastic takes Today. You know, they’re really hitting the fly. Well, well actually they’re not. ’cause what’s happened is you have missed the real take. Peter (38m 30s): What’s happened is the fish has taken your imitation, which it would do generally very gently and quietly. Fish don’t take a fly and rush off with it. What happens is it takes a fly ’cause it’s fairly positive, it knows what it is, it looks the right thing. And then because of the slight pressure of the nylon due to the wind and everything, the hook point pricks the fish, the fish goes oh, and startles and darts off. That’s what you think is the take. You actually missed the real take. Dave (39m 1s): Right. And part of that is because you had, you’re setting that up with a, a belly in your line. Is that part of the success? Yeah, Peter (39m 7s): It’s a great way to fish to use the, the bow in the line to, to actually in, in effect hook the fish for you. Dave (39m 13s): Wow. That’s perfect. Yeah. So, so the bellying line isn’t necessarily bad on Stillwaters? Oh Peter (39m 18s): No, no, no, no. Definitely not. Gotcha. And, and you know, if you’re, if you’re watching the end of your leader and stuff, you can’t concentrate all the time. You know, you’re bound to miss things aren’t you? Dave (39m 29s): Right. Yeah. You can’t catch every single take. I mean, especially on the Stillwater. What are a few of the flies that you would be using? Do you have patterns that you talked about? Tying a little bit, do you have some patterns that you love using out there for Stillwater? Peter (39m 43s): I do. And interesting. I I do like the clearer water fisheries, like which we get in this chalk country. And I like to be able to target an individual fish. We, we tend to call it stalking here and you know, it could be, you can see e each fish when the water goes very, very clear. And I like to use something we call them stalking bugs. Very, very simple little flies. Often there’s not all it is is lead wire on the hook. It’s nothing else. I don’t know. Do you, do you have a camera on me at all? Dave (40m 15s): No Peter (40m 16s): You don’t. Okay. Right. Well I can’t show it to you, but I’m just ho holding a hook in my hand. It says like a size 10 standard shank hook and there are six turns of lead wire on, on it, on the hook strength, which I’ve touched with a olive Pantone pen just to give it an olivey tint on the lead. And that is it. There is nothing else on it. Dave (40m 38s): That’s it. So what is that? Is that imitating m Peter (40m 41s): It might be, yeah. Dave (40m 43s): Yeah. Peter (40m 43s): You can think what you, what you like. It imitates and I like to cast it and drop it into individual fish. It sinks very, very quickly ’cause there’s no dressing on it. So it sinks down real quick. And I try to get it to fall right in front of the fish’s face and they will just move forward slightly and take it as gentle as a lamb. You do have to be able to see, ’cause again, you won’t see a lot of the takes if you can’t see the fish. So what are they taking it for now? There’s a little puzzle in a conundrum, that’s for sure. So I tend to think maybe they see those turns of lead wire as the segments of an insect’s abdomen maybe. Peter (41m 27s): I don’t know. But if they had any brains at all, they would see the whacking great curve of metal hanging from it and the great big metal ring at the other end. And the halls are attached to it. But I think we have to accept that trope don’t have the pole of reasoning. Dave (41m 45s): No, no. Sometimes, you know, putting something in front of ’em, they’re just kinda curious. They’re just gonna take try it. Peter (41m 52s): Yeah. And I love fishing these little dead things and, and it, and it is fun to do. I sort of became, how should we say, in my early writing days, because I use these things quite a bit. People would ask me about, and I love teaching it how to do it, and I’d do shows and talks for clubs where I’d tie these bits of lead wire. Then people look at you, they think, no, no, no, that’s not true. Okay, well let me show you how it works. And this is a, a fun thing. You’ll, I hope you’ll like this. When, when I first came out to Oregon and I went to your dad’s shop, okay. I bought a coil of lead wire, which you guys use. Peter (42m 33s): It’s got a hole through the middle of it and you use it for lead weights and stuff for fishing with maybe with lurs or whatever to get the gear down. And I bought this coil of lead wire from your dad’s shop. ’cause I thought, oh, this is gonna be interesting. So when I got back here to the UK and we’d be doing say a club night and people would talk about these lead wire flies. And it is a very, very fine lead wire we use in the main. So I’d say, yeah, what you need is a coil of lead wire. And I’d root around in my bag and I’d pick up this coil of lead wire that I bought in your dad’s shop, you know, which is really heavy stuff. And they go, what you using that? I say, yeah, Dave (43m 13s): Right. Peter (43m 15s): So I’ve still got that. You still Dave (43m 17s): Have that? Peter (43m 18s): Yeah. Listen, listen. Dave (43m 20s): Yeah. Peter (43m 20s): That’s the coil of lead wire. Oh, Dave (43m 22s): There it is. Amazing. Which I’ve still Peter (43m 24s): Got from your dad’s shop. Dave (43m 25s): Oh, that’s pretty cool. Wow. So, and this is a heavier, heavier gauge wire than the stuff you guys typically use. Peter (43m 32s): Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You would not be able to, you wouldn’t be able to wrap this on a size 10 hook. Gotcha. Dave (43m 36s): So why did you grab that heavy, the heavy duty for my dad’s shop? Just for that to use as a talking point. Because Peter (43m 41s): As soon as I, I thought, oh, I can make a joke outta this, but I’m fine. Dave (43m 45s): There you go. You did? That’s amazing. Yeah, I’m trying to think because man, I use the lead wire for a lot of flies and we had different sizes. I’m trying to think what, what did we use it on? I think we waited, God, I can’t even remember what flies, but I know because I used to tie, you know, probably hundreds, thousands of flies in that shop and, and so yeah. That’s amazing that you’ve still got that, that that lead wire Peter (44m 7s): Did, did you then use the flat, the lead wire to, or maybe even flat sheet lead just simply to wait the fly to be able to get it that Yeah. Dave (44m 15s): Yeah. We would do like, you’d do like eight wraps, 5, 8, 10 wraps, like right at the start, wrap some thread around it to secure it and then tie your fly on top of that. Peter (44m 24s): Yeah, exactly. But then you can obviously remember this because what happened was that the gold bead came along, didn’t it? Yeah. If a fly tying and that suddenly was the weight and then the beads became different colors and then the beads became tungsten tungsten and, and now a fly isn’t a fly unless it’s got a bead head. Right. But I mean I’ve, I’ve looked at real flies and insects and bugs for years and years and years. I’ve never seen one with a great big bulbous head. Dave (44m 53s): No, no, that’s right. Yeah. It’s kinda interesting. I think part of that, I was just, we had an episode, we did a webinar with Landon Mayer who does some steelwater fishing in Colorado and he was showing some of his favorite flies and he was talking about, one of ’em was this had a little glass bead and he was talking about, I think he was saying maybe that was like a bubble, you know, like a water, you know, whatever that is. Right. It could be some other little thing, but I think it is just attracting their attention. But also he was saying that he thought those flies that are really subtle, that don’t have anything, a beads or anything can also be effective. Right. So I think it maybe depends on how much pressure and stuff like that. Right. With the fish are seeing. Peter (45m 29s): Yeah. And and fish are curious too, aren’t they? You know, there was a, a friend of mine, he was making flies out of a range of different colored beads just threading the beads onto the hook. Nothing else. No real different to my lead wire fly, if you like. But his was just a range of beads and, and he caught all sorts of stuff on them. And you know, I think a lot of it is, if you can see the fish and you can target it Exactly. And get it to dead drift or whatever in front of his face, you’re, you’re in with a damn good chance on you. Dave (46m 1s): Yeah. That’s the key. And, and it’s interesting ’cause that’s what Jim, you know, Jim Tini, that’s what he talks about. I think he got kind of famous for the, you know, stocking fish and I spot him, I got him right. That’s one of his famous word. Do you remember that those times when, you know, you’ve met Jim and hearing about him or knowing, I mean, first like did you know all those stories about the New York Times articles and all that stuff where, you know, throwing rocks at fish and all, all those things? Peter (46m 28s): Yeah, I know Jim took some stick over the years and you know, I, I mean I’ve been very, very lucky to have fished with him many, many times, particularly in Alaska and stuff. And yeah, sure. You know, people will say things, they say it about me, well, okay, well fish against Jimmy then, let’s see who can catch, Dave (46m 44s): Right. That’s the key. Yeah, exactly. Because he, he knows his stuff, right. Peter (46m 49s): Yeah. I mean I, I always talk about him with his ability with his sunk lines in, in that he can map out a pool by feeling around it with his sunk lines and he can tell you where the rocks are. You can’t see them, but he’ll, he marks out where they are, so therefore he knows where the fish are lying and yeah, he’s, he’s good. Oh, right. Dave (47m 10s): You know, Peter (47m 10s): I just, I fished Kodiak many, many times for steelhead. Jimmy got me to go there with Dave Duncan and sons and, you know, I’d fish a pile of rocks or whatever. Generally I would use split shot and stuff because I wasn’t good enough with the sun line. But then I’d work through a pile of rocks and I’d catch a couple of fish or whatever and, and Jim would be stood back shaking his head. He’d say, there’s more in there. You know, and he’d go through with a single sunline and he’d catch three or four palms as many as I did. Dave (47m 39s): Wow. Yeah. Gosh. That’s it. Yeah. And Kodiak, that’s amazing, right? You guys fished for Steelhead and Kodiak. What, what was that like? Were there some days of, of lots of fish or was it kinda, you know, describe that a little bit. Peter (47m 53s): You get some incredible weeks there. Yeah, I mean the, the first year I, I ever went there on the Carlock, I had 83 fish for the week. Wow. I mean that’s ludic, that’s ludicrous. I never did as well as that a game. But, you know, I would off often get 30 fish weeks. And that, to me, that to me was fantastic. Yeah. Dave (48m 11s): Wow. And these are all fishing, like you said, this was with, up there with Jim and, and he was using the sinking lines at the time. Peter (48m 19s): Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean he fished the sinking line all the time. I would, I generally fished with split shot because I I wasn’t as good as him. Dave (48m 27s): Yeah. Right. Yeah. Split. And we did that too. I mean, split shot was always huge. It’s interesting because I think that Yeah, with the right sinking line or even, you know, going to like euro nipping, we’ve talked a lot about that. The fact that, you know, not even a line at all. Just mono Right. Actually fishing in Tung. Yeah. Do you, is, have you ever kind of touched on any of that stuff with the, the kind of that style of fishing? Peter (48m 50s): I haven’t, to be honest. And I think it’s more the competition guys who used that a lot and that developed, I, I dropped outta competition fishing a long time ago. I really enjoyed my years doing it, but then I, I sort of dropped out of it ’cause I was too damn busy. There were too many jobs. I couldn’t do everything. But yeah, it’s very, very clever. I’ve got a, a friend who you’ve heard of him called Charles Jardine. Oh yeah. He’s a he is a, we’ve been French for over 50 years and, and Charles is a fantastic river angler. And, and I watch him fishing with these new techniques and he is brilliant. He really is. Dave (49m 24s): Yeah, he is. Charles ine. Yeah. We had, I think, I can’t remember the episode, but we had him on the podcast quite a while ago, I think. Yeah. Episode 2 21. We’ve talked about nip fishing with, with Charin kind of, I think some people have said maybe the, the lefty cray of the, you know, of that, that world. Right. It’s, it’s probably very much Peter (49m 44s): So. I mean, I always rate, I always rate him as England’s number one by a long, long way. He’s just a, a brilliant fly tire, brilliant angler, wonderful artist, and, and a, and a great communicator. And, and he does wonderful things for fishing. He, Charles has got a, a charity he runs called Fishing for Schools, where he helps children in underprivileged schools and stuff, experience fishing. And he’s been wonderful through that. And if I, you might like this silly little story that, I mean, I help him out obviously, because he is a great friend. But in two years ago we did an event in, in London where there’s a Stillwater fishery place called Scion Park. Peter (50m 26s): It’s owned by the Duke of Northumberland. And we got him to allow us access to one of the banks on the lakes. And we measured out a 300 yard stretch of bank. And Charles and I had a range of rods between us, four, six, and eight weights. And we cast along the grass to where, how far we could walked to the end cast again. Walked to the end cast again until we’d covered the 300 yards. Turned around, went back again, turned around, went back again until between us we’d covered 26.2 miles and we called it cast a marathon. Dave (51m 5s): Wow. 26 miles. Peter (51m 7s): Yeah. And it was 1,989 casts. And it took us 10 hours. And if you people are are with you there, if you look me my name up on YouTube, there isn’t much there on YouTube. But my son filmed it that day. And you can look it up on cast a marathon and you can see us doing it. And at the end of it, Charles and I hug each other. And what we’re actually saying is never again. Dave (51m 34s): Right. Yeah. Gosh, that’s crazy. So in 2000, basically 2000 casts to get the marathon in. Yeah. Peter (51m 42s): And between us, we raised a stack of money. So, you know, it was fun. Dave (51m 46s): Yeah, you did. No, that sounds like that’s a good, that’s a, that’s a good activation. Right? That’s kind of a fun way to do it. That’s awesome. Well, this is good. I think that we’re gonna start to take it outta here. We’ve got the, a segment we call the, the plays of the week segment. This is kind of my throwback to some of the sports ESPN Sports Center, but thinking plays of the week, we’re gonna get into that a little bit and talk about a story from you, maybe a, a play of the week or a play of the year that you’ve had in your life. Maybe a big fish, maybe not. But today this is presented by Patagonia. They have a new waiter. They’re swift current waiters that are out there, and they’re doing some cool stuff. We’re big supporters of Patagonia. They do a ton of great stuff in conservation. Dave (52m 27s): I think they’re one of the great, not only fly fishing brands, but just great brands in the world for everything there. So, so first off, big shout out to Patagonia on you. Maybe let’s tell that, I know you’ve got years and years of stories, but do you ever go back and think, man, there’s this one story, you know, that, that I kind of, that pops in your head, right? And you remember anything that comes to mind that would, that would make a play of the week? Peter (52m 49s): Yeah, no, there’s a good one, isn’t it? I, I, I love stories about Phish and my brain’s always full of crazy things that have happened. But let’s think, let’s think. I mean, yeah, years and years ago up in Alaska, in the days when there were big king salmon around Oh yeah. There are now. Yeah. And we had a year when, yeah, there was some big old fish around and we’d spotted one particular fish in a, in a pool. And it was difficult. I, I couldn’t get the thing and neither of my friends could. But we were casting, casting, casting at this thing. And I eventually put on a fly that my daughter had made for me when she was 14. It was a mixture of pink, purple and blue. We called it the Fonzie fly. Peter (53m 30s): ’cause she was called Fiona and put this fly out, saw this fish lift and snap its mouth. And I thought, that must be me titan. And it was, and the hence the long, long battle. It was 51 inches by 34 inches. That’s a pretty big king salmon, isn’t it? Dave (53m 50s): Wow. I wonder how big, I’m not even, I don’t even know how big of a king salmon is that kind of in the 30 pound range, Peter (53m 56s): More like the Dave (53m 57s): 70 0, 70, 70 pounds. Wow. Okay. So yeah, this is gigantic. Yeah. Peter (54m 2s): 50, 51 by 34. And we put it back obviously, but I got a, a picture of it I used to have in my shop and people would say, you know, why are you ho, why didn’t you hold it up for the, the camera and stuff? Why are you one end and the guide the other end? I said, well, it’s pretty damn simple actually, because a fish of that size, I can’t lift 70 pounds with my arms stretched that far apart. Dave (54m 25s): Right, right. Totally. Oh my gosh. So you caught a Yeah, what most people, I mean, you hear about these stories of back in the day, you know, it’s always kind of back in the day, but these fish that are, you know, maybe even up to a hundred pounds or over a hundred pounds, right? Well Peter (54m 39s): They did. I mean, on the, on the Columbia they were, weren’t they? Dave (54m 42s): Yeah. Some giant fish, but even, I mean, even 70 or 50, really, I mean, gosh, if you get a, if you were to get a 50 pounder, that would be gigantic. So, and what, what did the getting that in, do you remember like what Rod you had and, and what what that was like? Yeah, Peter (54m 56s): I was using a nine weight G Lumus and, and of course a teeny T 300 line. And I can’t remember the real, probably a great big Abel ’cause I was crazy on Abel colors at the time. Dave (55m 7s): Oh yeah. Peter (55m 8s): And yeah, I mean, but it was just surreal, you know, it was just a lot of luck, I think. And the fish chose not to leave this huge pool. I mean, if it had done the normal thing, a running down river where you’ve gotta get the boat and chase it, I wouldn’t have got it. But it, it chose to stay in the pool and slug it out and that’s fine. And it came into the edge at one stage, nothing to do with me. And I could see the flying the corner of the mouth really easily. And I said to the young guide, I said, I’m, I’m gonna run below it, try and turn its head over in shallows. I said, you’ve got one chance to grab its tail, get it wrong, and you’re gonna die. Dave (55m 44s): Right. Yeah. This would be the Peter (55m 46s): Sudden, Dave (55m 47s): Right. The ultimate guide mistake. Right. Don’t lose this thing. Peter (55m 52s): And, and all of a sudden, there it was, Dave (55m 54s): And there it was. Wow. And you got it in, what was that like that camp? Was this the camp, this is the Dunkins, right? Yes. Down there on the nga Peter (56m 2s): On the Connect talk. This was Dave (56m 3s): Oh, the Connect talk? Yeah, that’s right. Connect Talk. What was that camp like? Was this where you’re in some nice tents sort of thing? What, what was that Dunking camp like? Peter (56m 10s): It’s a tented camp, you know, which has evolved over the years to be become extremely comfortable. And, and they do a great job there. They really do. I mean, I’ve been going there for now 38 years, so, Dave (56m 20s): Oh, so you’re Yeah. You’re still going to the same camp. Peter (56m 23s): Yeah, I take people there every year from the UK and, you know, I love it. And I’m, I’m getting people ready to, to go for this coming year. And, you know, I’ve, I’ve done it a lot and I, I’ve been lucky. I’ve, I really have Dave. I I have been lucky in my life, but, you know, I look at it now when I take people there that I want them to see it through. I like to see it through their eyes again. So I’m experiencing the whole thing through their eyes and, and I love to see the them get the thrill of seeing all those fish. Dave (56m 53s): Yep. Wow, that’s really cool. Yeah. So you’re, so you’re experiencing, I mean yeah, through just like a guide would right. Kind of through the Yeah. But you’re also getting a chance to still kind of have, do some fishing out there, right? Peter (57m 5s): Yeah, very much so. And but you know, if you talk about guides Yeah, my goodness. I, I do respect guides because, you know, they got this bunch of people to look after for the week of very, very varying abilities. And they may have a tough week, they may have awful shitty weather, whatever it is the end of the week, they, you know, say goodbye, blah, blah, blah, see you again, blah, blah. A few minutes later, the next batch of guests arrived to go through the same whole thing week on week on week. You’ve gotta be a bit special to be a guide. Yeah, Dave (57m 34s): You do. Yeah. The guides are, that was one thing I was never, never super great at. And yeah, it’s, you gotta be a, there’s a certain type of person. I think that makes a, a good, great guide. Yeah. Right. Peter (57m 44s): Yeah, very much so. Dave (57m 46s): We’ve talked to a lot of them. Nice. Well, and I guess, you know, you’ve been here a lot. Have you ever thought about over all those years, maybe making the move and trying to, you know, maybe live in the US more, or, I know people here in the US you hear people sometimes talking about, you know, because of changes like leaving the US right. To go other places because of whatever politics or something like that. But is that something you ever thought about, or do you just, you, you’ve kind of always had your been settled where you’re at? Peter (58m 11s): I sort of goofed around with the thoughts at one time, but yeah, I think, you know, I am, I come from Cornwall that’s, I don’t live there now, but it’s England’s my home and I, I guess I’m stuck here and Oh goodness, I’m, I’m, I’ll be 78 in a few weeks. I can’t move now. Dave (58m 27s): Right. Yeah. It’s too much of a, yeah. The, the move is one of the most stressful things. Right. So in, what was the name of the, the town that, that you’re in now? Peter (58m 35s): The town is called, I’m, I’m near a town called Andover, which is in Hampshire. Dave (58m 40s): Oh, okay. Andover. Yeah. And Peter (58m 42s): The fish, the fishery is called Beaver Springs. Dave (58m 44s): Beaver Springs, okay. Yeah, I see it. Andover. Okay. You got, yeah, Anton Lakes. That’s it looks like, yeah, there’s a lot of, is that a lake that looks like that’s a big reservoir near Anton Lakes. Peter (58m 55s): Oh, Anton, yeah. That’s one of the rivers here. The, the Anton, which goes into the test. Dave (58m 59s): Oh, it goes into, into, okay, so that goes into the test. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, this is cool. That’s, so if somebody was, well, well, let’s just take it out here pretty quick here. But if somebody was heading out and, you know, coming over from wherever in the world to fish the uk, what would you recommend they do? What, what, what’s the best way to get a chance to maybe fish, you know, I don’t know, either some of the still waters or shock streams, you know, any recommendation there? Peter (59m 23s): Well, the still waters are, are readily available on a, on a day ticket, so that’s not a problem. The chalk stream, yes, you can, you can get day tickets on them and it’s best to do it through one of the booking agencies. One, a very, really good one is called Fishing Breaks, and I do a lot of guiding work for them. So they’ve got access to lots of different beats. But yeah, do do, if you’re gonna do it, book up will in advance. Dave (59m 45s): Well in advance. Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. Nice. Well, I think, Peter, we could probably leave it there. This has been awesome to catch up with. Again, we have this other episode we’ve done with you. We, you know, we’ve got one out there with you and Jim, and so we had some good stories there, but this has been great to connect. Any, anything else you wanna leave people with today about what you have coming or anything new? You know, I mean, it sounds like you’ve pretty much done it all at this point, but anything you wanna leave people with? Peter (1h 0m 12s): I would say try many, many different things. Don’t be stuck in the mud with one technique. You know, if you’re, if you’re catching fish, fine, we’ll do something else. Learn a new technique, try a different fly. Dave (1h 0m 21s): Yeah, that’s great advice. Yeah. Don’t get stuck in the same, same old, same old. Right. Yeah. Peter (1h 0m 26s): If, if you’re catching, that’s fine, we’ll do something else. Dave (1h 0m 28s): Yeah. Or if you’re catching, maybe Even if you’re on fire, you’re catch a lot, maybe still try something else, right? Because that’s when you maybe will learn. Peter (1h 0m 36s): Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, if the fish are taking, that’s the time to try different flies. Dave (1h 0m 40s): Yeah. Awesome. Cool, Peter, well, we will send everybody out to Peter Cockwell on Facebook is probably the best place on social media to track you down. Peter (1h 0m 49s): Yeah, that’s the easiest. Dave (1h 0m 50s): Okay. And we’ll, we’ll throw in your YouTube channel as well, so we can look at some of the, I know you’ve got a couple older videos there that’ll be cool to check into. But, but yeah, Peter, until we meet again, I appreciate your time today and definitely all the great work over the years and look forward to staying in touch with you. Peter (1h 1m 7s): Thanks Dave. Thanks for asking me. Dave (1h 1m 10s): If you enjoyed this episode with Peter Cockwell, do us a big favor and share this episode out with someone you love and would love to hear some of this connection to more of our UK brothers and sisters. You can find more@wew.com as always, and subscribe if you get a chance. We got a big episode of CJ Chad Johnson is back for CJ’s real Southern podcast coming in at you next week, so stay tuned. Another good reason to subscribe because you’ll get updated when Chad and his next guest go live. All right, I’m outta here. I hope you have a great morning. Hope you have an awesome afternoon, and if it’s evening, hope you’re having a great evening and things are going well and, and you’re gonna catch us on that next episode. Dave (1h 1m 56s): We’ll talk to you very soon. Thanks again. 3 (1h 1m 58s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly, swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing.com.