758 | Colorado Fly Fishing with Alex Xenie Hall – Nymph Fishing,  BC Steelhead, Low & Clear

Dave (2s): Do you consider yourself a nfer or a swinger? Do you love dry fly fishing or do streamers get you more fired up? And do you love to focus on one thing in fly fishing, or are you more a jack of all trades? I found today’s guest in a movie documentary about BC steelhead fishing, and Today we hear the rest of the story. By the end of this episode, you will have a nipping set up from one of the legends in trout fishing and another tool in your toolbox as you move forward this year. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. How’s it going? I’m Dave host of the We Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid, grew up around a little fly shop and created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts out there. Dave (46s): Alex Xenie Hall, legendary Colorado Trout Fishing Guide and Self-proclaimed trout bomb. Steelhead Nut is gonna take us into his world of the Upper Sand Juan. And we’re gonna talk about the other end of the Baine River. For steelhead, we find out how to fish a pool with a nymph, an indicator why the shoulder season should definitely be on your radar, and which old school strike indicators he really loves. We get into that, the exact setup for nipping with these indicators and what you should be looking at in a tasty run, how to find these fish in pools. Plus, we’re gonna find out how to see fish into fish windows in the water so you can spot and catch more fish this season. Without further ado, here he is, Alex Xenie Hall. Dave (1m 27s): You can find him at Alex Xenie on Instagram. How are you doing, Alex? Alex (1m 32s): Oh, doing good. Thank you for having me. Dave (1m 34s): Yeah, yeah. Thanks for coming on here. I’m excited to talk to you. I think like a lot of the great things out there in fly fishing or just around the world, word of mouth is a lot of getting the word out there. And I heard, I’m not even sure now who told me about it, but Low and Clear was a movie, a documentary you were on that was really awesome about a place I love Up North, you know, on the in steelhead country. But also you have a bunch of experience guiding your, I’ve heard you be called a legend before, you know, so you’ve got this legendary stats as well. So we’re gonna talk about that and some of your guiding in in Colorado and around the country. But before we get there, take us back to fishing. I always love to start really quick. What’s your, how’d you get into it? What’s your first memory of fly fishing? 0 (2m 11s): Well, my first memory of fishing, my father was a pretty avid fisherman and I was the younger son, so I got left home a lot, which didn’t sit well with me. Yeah, that was my first, yeah, my first instinct of fishing was I want to go and I can’t. So, and then from there it just kind of led moving to the, you know, the Rocky Mountains living in Colorado. It, it’s kind of natural to, you know, fishing is available. And so I spent a lot of time just, you know, out on the rivers and streams and just learned as I went. I had a few mentors here and there. I mean, definitely the, you know, nudge. ’cause I started out fishing, spin gear and stuff and yeah. 0 (2m 52s): Gradually moved towards fly fishing. But yeah, it’s been nice to do. I keep an open mind though. I still do both. Yeah. But fly fishing is 90% of what I do. Dave (3m 2s): I was gonna say, it seems like in some areas around the country you hear about fly fishing is more the predominant, you know, like for example, we’re heading over to the East coast to fish for Atlantic salmon and, and there’s nobody gear fishing over there. There’s no conventional fishing. It’s all fly. Right. But some places you go and there’s a lot Is Colorado, do you still see a lot of people spin fishing versus fly 0 (3m 21s): A fair amount, but I would say the fly culture is pretty strong in Colorado. I mean, it definitely, I mean, like a place I’ve recently have been to Pyramid Lake in Nevada, it has a very developed fly culture and gear culture that coexist very well, is what I find interesting. Yeah. It’s nice to see, you know, people get along even if their methods are different. Dave (3m 43s): Yeah, exactly. Well, we’re gonna get into some of your methods and some of your guiding, because I wanna talk about that. We have a bunch of listeners in Colorado and around the west, so I wanna talk there, but low and clear the movie. I want to talk about that because I think that is a good, you know, juxtaposition as well, like putting you and, you know, JT Van Zant. Right? The, it’s really awesome because the story is like him, the spay, we have a lot of Spaying Lu as well, but he trying to get a fish on the spay. Right. And he struggled and you were out there, I think Nipping talk about that. How did that movie come to be? 0 (4m 13s): Well, the movie, there was four friends. I mean, JT and I were the more serious fishermen. Tyler, one of the producers of the movies, he’s a pretty serious fisherman. He used to guide with me and the fourth Khalil, he was around, but probably not as fishy. But we all knew each other and they, they knew the chemistry between JT and I, how serious we would get on our fishing and stuff. And I think they were finishing up film school and kind of looking for a project to do. So it just sort of, it sort of came together real, you know, just without a, a tight plan, oh, let’s just film these guys and see what happens. It’s, it’s gonna be good. Yeah. So Right. And they just went from there, you know? 0 (4m 53s): Yeah. Dave (4m 53s): Where’d you guys go? Where, where, describe it a little bit so people that haven’t seen it there. Where, where were you at and what were you focusing on? 0 (4m 59s): Well, we focused a little bit on j t’s life in Texas. I mean, he primarily guides for red fish and salt water species in the flats. And then I do the trout thing here in Colorado. And he, JT has also lived in Colorado at different times and spent quite a bit of time trout fishing with me. So, I mean, he knows it real well. And then, yeah, steelheading has been, you know, it had been on my radar as I grew up as a fisherman. And eventually in the late nineties, I’ve got to the point where I could make a trip and go to British Columbia. And that was the thing. I wanted my skill editing to be in a special place. And, you know, from reading and studying, I knew that British Columbia was probably where I would get the best experience. 0 (5m 40s): And yeah, it’s, the fever took hold, as they say. Dave (5m 44s): Yeah. And do you go up there regularly? Is is that a place you’ve been up to many times? 0 (5m 48s): I’ve been, I’ve made about 25 trips over Oh, wow. Almost every year except for Covid and a year that they closed down and Oh yeah. It’s, you know, I’ve tried to make it every year, but it, the challenge is there. It’s, it’s, you know, it’s expensive and it’s not easy. Yeah, no. And the steelheading gets more and more popular. It’s, you know, the guiding has gotten heavier up there, and so it’s, yeah. I mean, yeah, I hate to miss a year, but sometimes you do. Dave (6m 14s): Right. And were you up there when you go up there now? And what’s your technique on the steel heading up there? 0 (6m 20s): I swing and nymph and generally fish by myself. I have a few friends. I mean, I, I was guy, I went with a lot of guides in the beginning and, you know, learned what I could from ’em. And I’m at the point now where don’t, don’t need the guiding as much. I mean, there’s some places I would like the access of course, but it, it allows me to stay up there longer, two to three weeks if I kind of do my own thing versus going, you know, a week at a lodge and boom, you’re done. And on the, on the way home. Yeah. It’s always nice to have more time, you know, I mean, really you feel like about a week into it, you’re kind of back on track, you know, and then all of a sudden it’s time to go. Dave (6m 59s): I agree. Yeah, we’ve been up there a few times and yeah, it’s always nice to get the, the two or three or weeks or even more if you can. Yeah. 0 (7m 6s): It protects you from weather and I mean, all, you know, gives you a down day if you need it. I mean, stuff breaks up there invariably. I mean, you need to fix something or just need a day to regroup, so it’s nice to have time on your hands. Dave (7m 19s): Nice. And then, and over to your, the Colorado stuff, what does that look like? Are you kinda, what’s your home water? What areas are you guiding there? Oh, 0 (7m 27s): I’m up on the upper San Juan River. I mean, you’ve probably heard of the Tailwaters in New Mexico. Pretty famous tailwaters, but the headwaters is quite a bit more private and harder to access. So through smaller private land leases and stuff like that. I tried to get on some of the headwaters. I mean, I spent seven years guiding on the Tailwaters back in the nineties, and it just, it’s a long distance drive, you know, 75 miles each way. And I mean, but it is a consistent fishery. And so it’s, I started there and then I really shied away from it. And just recently, I, I went back and fished there, but I mean, I’d avoided the place for years and years and it, it’s changed some, there’s a lot more bigger browns in there these days and more pressure. 0 (8m 12s): But I think I might end up fishing there again, not guiding per se, but Yeah. Yeah, I’m looking to, you know, hopefully spend a little more time down there. Dave (8m 21s): Down there. Yeah. What and what is on jt? Where did you, have you known him a while? Where’d you meet him originally? 0 (8m 28s): I met him here in Pagosa. His mother has lived in Pagosa for quite a few years, so probably over 20 years. Oh, okay. So he was up here living for the summer working, and he decided to work, And we only had one fly shop in the town back in those days that was in, in the, God would’ve been in the nineties. And yeah, he was working there and he heard about the legendary fishermen of the town. So he, he wanted to meet me and yeah, one day, one day I walked in the shop and he is just like, Hey, you wanna go fishing? And kind of, we just, yeah, let’s go fishing. And kind of from there, we, we spent quite a bit of time, you know, together during that summer and fished a lot. 0 (9m 9s): And then he moved back to Texas and he would always come up every year. So, though, so, I mean, lots of trips frequently, but then as he got older and got more and more into the salt water, you know, then we started drifting apart a little bit. Yeah. And then, you know, having children, that’s the big separator. Yeah. I can’t think of how many buddies I’ve had that once they have children, it’s just, that’s it. Yeah. I mean, no, you know, unless you’re the favorite uncle and make a huge effort, you’re just kind of out of the picture all of a sudden. Dave (9m 40s): Right. Yeah. The kid factor is huge. It’s definitely, that is a challenge. So you’ve managed to basically, I I, we’ve, you of course, the trout bu word I think is great because of gear rock. Right. And he’s up to Exactly. You know what I mean? I bet that’s essentially what you, you’ve this life you’ve created, right? Is that what, what would you, how would you describe your life? Because it seems like, you know, there’s all these words, legendary, you know, trout bomb. Did you plan this originally? Or if you look back at it, 0 (10m 5s): I didn’t plan it, but fishing is always featured heavily in my, you know, big life decisions. I think I chose not to go to college right away. I, you know, I told my mother, oh, I’ll wait a few years. And of course, that turned into many years. And yeah, I think just being close to good fishing and fishing has been at the forefront of my brain, which, you know, good or bad, it is what it is. Yeah. Dave (10m 33s): That’s awesome. Well, you know, John Gerich, you know, RIPI mean, he, I remember we’ve had him on a, on the podcast a few times, and one of the things he mentioned was about his dad, that his dad loved fishing, but because he worked so much, he almost never got out. And he said that a big part of becoming, like he called him, you know, trout bum, was that he didn’t wanna be like his dad. And so he built this life around fishing. And it feels like that that’s kind of the same thing you’ve done, right? You’re, is that kind of how it looks for you? 0 (10m 59s): Pretty much, yeah. I mean, my dad, he, he got time sometime to fish, but yeah, he had a lot of other passions, and so, yeah, I think I took it to the next level. And I mean, my dad, he passed away early in life, but before he did, I, I think he realized what fishing meant to me and where it was taking my life. I mean, I, yeah, I, I would’ve liked to him, him to have watched low and clear though, and seen that next stage of what I was doing. But no, he, he, he knew. Dave (11m 27s): Yeah, he knew is, is low and clear. Did that, when that came out, did you see a, a big, you know, outreach of people? Or what did that look like? 0 (11m 36s): I did, I mean, yeah, in the beginning, I mean it, and then even through the years, I mean, even, yeah, now I, someone will just reach out to me on Instagram or something outta the blue, and they’re like, you know, that movie really took me, you know, inspired me to do something. So, I mean, it’s a good feeling. Yeah, Dave (11m 51s): Because that was what, like 10 years ago or something like that? 0 (11m 54s): It came out in 2012, so yeah. 13 years. Yeah. So time goes quick. Dave (11m 59s): Yeah, it does, it does. Well, I wanna talk a little bit about your guiding, because I think that’s, you know, getting a few tips and tricks outta yet for sure will be cool today. But maybe talk, you mentioned a little bit the upper San Juan. Have you fished everywhere? I mean, Colorado wise, have you fished all around that state? Is that something, or do you focus your areas kinda in that San Juan area? 0 (12m 19s): I focus at home because, I mean, yeah, it’s just, you know, time and funds. I mean, I always try to fish closer to home, but now I have a great passion for the Gunnison area, which is Oh yeah, only about three, three hours away. And yeah, untold opportunities there. And really Colorado, I mean, there’s a lot of water in this state, and I’ve dabb dabbled here and there. I know the southwest probably the best, but now the state has grown so much. I mean, there’s a lot of waters I still want to go to, but I realize it’s, you know, it’s not quite gonna be the same as what it was 20, 30 years ago. Dave (12m 53s): No. Just ’cause more people, or, or is the fishing actually getting changing too? 0 (12m 58s): Fishing changing because of people and just Yeah, just the influx of people. I mean, Colorado got really busy in the last 15, 20 years, and so it, I mean, it’s good and bad from a guiding aspect, you need business. But that’s always been kind of a, a, you know, a problem for me is my own fishing versus guiding. Right. Dave (13m 18s): You know, 0 (13m 19s): And some guides don’t have that problem. They just dive in and, I mean, they’ll guide 2, 250 days a year on a, a place and just no problem. I’ve never been like that. My guidings always been kind of seasonal, 50, 75 days a year max. And it just, it’s just the nature of the beast. I mean, like right now we have great spring fishing, but there’s zero people around that are interested in taking the plunge. Dave (13m 43s): But why is that? Why is it just ’cause it’s kind of random this time of year, 0 (13m 47s): Little random, the tourists just aren’t here. And the fact that we’re not a destination destination, you can’t, you know, it’s just, it’s hard to convince somebody to come here in a shoulder season, you know, even though if they’re willing to try, you know, they might get into the fishing. They really want, I mean, it’s, but most people, you know, their thought of a guided fishing trip is gonna be during the summer, you know, the hatches are good and what have you. But, but personally, I love spring fishing. I mean, it’s, you know, Ming and streamers and just seeing fish that haven’t been pressured for a while too. I mean, it’s more people fishing in the winter than they used to, but the fish still, they get a break. 0 (14m 27s): I mean, and I feel like in the spring, you’re kind of seeing the river, you know, reborn, things are starting up again. And that’s what I enjoy about it. Dave (14m 35s): Yeah. What is that, the spring fishing time? When does that kind of start as there, I guess that’s changing too, right? With the changes in climate, but it was 0 (14m 42s): Typically, yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, with global warming. I mean, this river typically for years, mid-March, but now, yeah, the last four or five years, it’s been more like mid-February. So yeah. And we’re, we’re looking at significantly low snow pack this year. I mean, we’re really, we’re 40%, which is concerned. Oh, wow. Yeah. So, you know, it leaves you a little worried about the summer. But I mean, I’ve lived here long enough that we’ve seen similar conditions before And we seemed all, we always bounced through with rain and what have you. But, but it is concerning. I mean, yeah, you wonder, as the west heats up, how many fisheries will be lost over the years. Dave (15m 20s): Right. Yeah. That’s the question. Do you, do any of the warmer water stuff? Have you, do you, are you have any interest in the, the, you know, the, all the carp and all, any the warmer fish? 0 (15m 30s): I enjoy carp fishing a little bit. I do a little bit of guiding for pike. I do like pike, which are, you know, cold water, warm water. But yeah, different niche. And yeah, I mean, I enjoy fishing for pretty much any species, but I would say I specialize trout and steelhead for most of what I do. Just, just where I Dave (15m 48s): Live. And you have, I mean, that’s interesting about Colorado is you have this love of steelhead, it sounds like, but you have to travel quite a ways for that, right? But you have the Colorado, what’s your closest steelhead? Have you mostly gone up to BC or are there other areas you’ve kinda looked at? 0 (16m 2s): I, I did try Idaho in the beginning. Yeah. I caught one steelhead in Idaho. And I have seen lately, it seems like the clear water. I mean, this year particularly, the clear water was good. Seen a lot of big fish. So, I mean, that’s something in the future I would like to learn that because yeah, it is, it’s a little more accessible, a little closer and a little more affordable. But yeah, now BC is really where I’ve, you know, yeah, two to three weeks a year is all I can spend, but every year that I can. So it’s been pretty consistent. Dave (16m 32s): Yep. Is is it the, the two weeks over there, two or three weeks, is this a, like later in the fall sort of thing? Or are you going earlier? 0 (16m 38s): I usually prefer November. ’cause I mean, the classic steelhead season is September and October, but with this warming weather, the guides have started to push into November a lot more than they used to. Which, you know, it’s, oh, you can’t blame ’em guy’s gotta make a living. Right. But I do. Yeah. In the time that I’ve been steel adding up there, I’ve seen the pressure increase considerably. So by going late season, I’m always protected by that a little bit. I mean, even this last year, a friend of mine up there, he is like, yeah, he goes, you wouldn’t have believed the bulky in September and October. He was like, he said, it was just almost not worth doing. So, Dave (17m 15s): No kidding. Just ’cause it’s so busy, just the 0 (17m 17s): Volume of boats. Yeah. Yeah. It just so much traffic, you know? And so it, yeah, I’m, I’m kind of glad I haven’t experienced that, you know, I mean, there’s the odd, the odd day in the late fall where you’re like, there’s a lot of people around still. But in general, I’ve been lucky. Yeah. I mean, there’s days where you don’t see anyone, which, I mean, that’s almost a fantasy, but I like to get it if you can. Yeah. Dave (17m 41s): Can you find that in Colorado when you’re fishing in the upper San Juan, can you find places where there’s not a ton of people? 0 (17m 46s): Yeah, I mean, on the lease water for sure, because we control the access. Oh, right. The least. But yeah, in the forest around here, hiking is your answer. I mean, we have a multitude, multitude of small streams that offer good wild trout. And yeah, you’re gonna be, you know, you walk a mile or two, you’re gonna be away from people. And that, that’s the saving grace. Because yeah, a few of our more well-known streams, I mean, they do by midsummer, they get guided to the point where it’s not an experience I would want to give to someone. No. The fish, you know, the fish have just seen too much, I think, you know, at some waters are much more resilient to guiding than, you know, small streams and private headwaters. 0 (18m 27s): I mean, a lot of people don’t realize it, that yeah, you can fish ’em, but they need a rest to provide good fishing in between some of the little lodges I work for on private streams, you know, you’ll get a group in for four or five days and you know, the first three days are good, but then, you know, they’ve put enough pressure on the water, it’s starting to show. Yeah. And they look at you like, oh, why, you know, why isn’t as good as the first day? And yeah, I like people to, I enjoy people that think as they fish and see the whole experience and not just focus on, you know, oh, I’m catching, I’m having a good time. Right. I mean, because it, ’cause it comes and goes. I mean, it can’t be just constant catching fish. 0 (19m 10s): I mean, we all need a day like that every once in a while. But yeah, you know, I prefer working hard for a few quality fish and appreciating the experience more than just always being concerned that everybody gets a bucket full of fish. Dave (19m 27s): Trout Routes is the most comprehensive mapping app for trout anglers. With over 50,000 trout streams, 350,000 access points, public land maps and more trout routes is the number one resource for navigating, researching, and exploring trout streams. You can download trout routes for free in the app store today. Just search for trout routes on your phone and take your exploration to the next level. That’s trout routes. T-R-O-U-T-R-O-U-T-E-S. When it comes to high quality flies that truly elevate your fly fishing game, drift hook.com is a trusted source you need. I’ve been using Drift hook’s expertly selected flies for a while now, and they never disappoint. Dave (20m 9s): Plus they stand behind their products with a money back guarantee. Are you ready to upgrade your fly box? Head over to drift hook.com today and use the code swing at checkout to get 15% off your first order. That’s drift hook. D-R-I-F-T-H-O-O k.com. Don’t miss out. So the San Juan, the upper San Juan that you’re fishing there versus say the lower Tailwater, how would you describe that? The differences there between those two? 0 (20m 35s): Well, Freestone Stream fishing stone flies are your predominant bug. I mean, it’s, we do get decent dry fly fishing, but I think it’s one of those rivers that you’re always gonna do better with nymphs. I mean, the bigger fish just hang deeper in the water and what have you. But that’s another thing about drive fly fishing. I mean, I love drive fly fishing, but you know, there either has to be the good opportunity visually that you can see it’s time to drive fly fish. Or I want an angler that knows how to fish a dry fly well enough that he can bring fish up. And that’s, you don’t find as many people that are, you know what I’m saying? If you love dry flies, you believe in dry flies and you can actually fish them effectively enough to actually turn fish on. 0 (21m 22s): I mean, that’s a challenge and it takes work. But I mean, at times, if you want one to eat it dry, that’s what you’re gonna have to do. Dave (21m 30s): Right. So you do more. Do you think you’re doing more nipping throughout the year? I guess it depends on 0 (21m 34s): Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, even in midsummer, I mean, for most of my anglers of modest skills that are looking for numbers, it just, it’s better to fish ’em with a nymph, you know? But, but other people, I mean, like I say, if you’re confident in it and believe in it, I’m happy. I mean, I’ve had guys fish dry and what I thought in my head was pretty marginal conditions. But because of their confidence and willingness to stick with it, you know, they caught, caught what they needed to. Dave (22m 4s): What is your nipping setup typically look like? How would you describe that as this like leader and all that stuff? 0 (22m 10s): I’m a big fan of the little puls indicators, the real light indicators. Usually I use a couple of them spaced about 12 inches apart. And I mean, I like ’em ’cause they’re light and sensitive. A big beef for a lot of people is that they’re not reusable. Oh. I mean, as, as long as you leave them on that rod rig, they are. But if you’re a guy that breaks down his rod every day, the stick ons have to come off. So, I mean, like a, a manager that I work for you, he’s not about the pulses unless he Oh yeah. He, but he will acknowledge that with small, small flies that, you know, they trigger a light strike a lot better. But, and I think a aerodynamically, they cast a little better too than Dave (22m 52s): Like the thing a bobbers or the 0 (22m 53s): Thing of a bobbers. Yeah. They, you know, they kind of clunk out there. The newer ones, those oros, they’re better. I mean, that it’s coming along and I mean, and I, I’m not like a lot of people have, I don’t know, hatred towards strike indicators. I’ve never been, never been that kind of a person. No. I mean it’s, you know, yeah. I’ll tell people I’m like, you know, if they’re carping about ’em, like, just pretend it’s a dry fly. Right. Dave (23m 16s): Well, that’s interesting. There’s always gonna be some people hating, right? Like you think of the office, right. Even people that the, they’re hating the Euro nippers because they’re doing Euro nipping. There’s no indicator there. Right? Yeah. I think there’s always gonna be some haters out there. Totally. 0 (23m 27s): I mean, yeah. That’s one thing about fly fishing that has always been, I find it funny, but irritating is just the, well, the nitpickiness, like you say, the Euro guys don’t like the nim first, the dryly guys, you know, it’s like, whatever. I mean, I much, much prefer to see a guy that is competent in a variety of techniques, understands when and where to use them, and just doesn’t, doesn’t have this preconceived, you know, idea, oh, I’m loftier than you are. Dave (23m 54s): Right. I’m a dry fly only 0 (23m 56s): Angler. It’s like, yeah. Yeah. You know, when I was learning at 13, that attitude kind of turned me off then, and it still does. Dave (24m 3s): Yeah. Yeah. I, I feel like that attitude’s kind of gone out or slowly is going away. I feel like, You know what I mean? It’s probably still out there a little bit, but do, do you still see it a little bit out there, that kind of uppity? 0 (24m 14s): I do. I think, like you’re saying, less and less in younger generations of anglers, but yeah, no, in the middle, middle aged to older guys. Yeah. They clinging to it like a life raft. Yeah. Dave (24m 25s): Right, right. 0 (24m 26s): And it’s like, well, whatever. Yeah. And as I’ve matured as a guide, I think I’ve mellowed a lot. I used to be real hard charging, you know, you’re gonna do it this way. And just, and I’ve just learned that for most people, you get more if you relax a little bit and let things just let it happen, you know, the way, the way it’s gonna, I think. And that, that’s worked better for me. I mean, yeah. I’ve, you know, in the past I’d upset a few people here and there. Dave (24m 54s): Sure. Yeah. Right. Just ’cause your personality. Right. You’re pretty passionate about it. And then I think it came out in the low and clear movie right. Where you kind of got pissed and, you know, there’s lots of swear words and stuff versus like, JT who’s kind of quiet. Is that how that movie was? 0 (25m 6s): Exactly? Well, yeah. I mean he’s, yeah. A little more even keeled, you know, and just, we just have different perspectives on Phish for sure. And it, yeah, it comes out all the time. Right. Dave (25m 19s): What was that like in that movie when he was just struggl? I mean, I’ve there too. In fact, I’ve been up on the Bain, I remember with a couple friends, and it was the same thing where I had one guy was struggling, you know, one of our buddies and, you know, and I was catching some fish. We were catching some fish. And it’s tough, you know, and somebody’s not catching fish and you’re catching fish. Like how did that, how was that up there with JT in the movie? 0 (25m 39s): Yeah, well that was, it bothered me, like first or second day out. It just, you know, I knew it was kind of heading that way, and I would think I was frustrated And we had a little blow up, and then I just realized, you know, it’s, you can’t control. Yeah. It’s gonna play out. Like it’s gonna play out. So from that point on, I think I just fished, but I did, I felt bad. I mean, there’s another friend I steelhead with for years and years, And we had a better system going where if, you know, one guy was struggling a little bit, if you fished a run and suddenly you hooked into a fish, you, you laid rod down and you went and got your buddy and said, Hey, come try this run. Because I mean, not, you know, nine out of 10 times, if you hook a fish in a nice run, there’s probably at least a couple more laying in there. 0 (26m 25s): Yeah. You know, it’s just having the ability to stop fishing, get your buddy talking him into coming down there. Yeah. You know, and that, yeah. And that’s, it’s a good feeling. But with jt, I just, you know, I didn’t get that feeling like he w you know, wanted to do it. Yeah. And then he just like say he was obsessing on the cast so much that, and for me, I mean, yeah, we all wanna cast beautifully, gracefully or whatever, but I mean, the fish don’t see it at all. No. And they really don’t care. I mean, it’s what happens to that bug after it hits the men? You know what, you know, the manipulation, I mean, the cast has to get it there, but you know, you can’t obsess over it. No. But people do. Dave (27m 5s): Yeah. He was learning the spay cast, right? Was that, or he was kind of, that was part of it, right? He wasn’t a pro. 0 (27m 12s): He’d done it a little bit before. I’m trying to think. I think, yeah, the first time we steelhead in 2001. Yeah. It was pretty much single land rods. People were getting into spay fishing, but we didn’t yet. Yeah. I mean, myself, I resisted it for two or three years. Dave (27m 26s): Did you, did you eventually, you got into it eventually? 0 (27m 28s): Oh, one day, A cold day on the Bain. I was fishing to run and a guy below me was space casting. And I just looked at how much line management I was having to do, how much ice management, because it was cold. And this guy had a fixed length of 70, 75 foot and I swing and just won, won. Punch it out there, swing it, you know? No, yeah. And I was like, man, gotta quit fighting. Yeah. Fighting the obvious, you know? And yeah. And I’ve come to love it. Yeah. Dave (27m 55s): What’s your space setup look like now? Out there? 0 (27m 58s): I fished, you know, I, I fished a seven, seven weight Z axis. And then what a, a kind of more traditional 13 foot eight weight. I mean, I like, I like middle of the road spare rods. I mean, the seven is a really nice rod for me. And I think the eight, the eight’s good, those cover the bases. And then nim fing, I use a nine just because I had it. It’s a little bit of a heavy rod, but it works good to turn over the indicator and what have you, you know, but, and then lately I just got a switch rod for fish and pyramid and yeah. The way spay rods have, you know, the transition to shorter and shorter coming down from 14, 15 foot down into 13, 12, I think, you know, they’re, yeah, they’re manageable, they’re nice rods. 0 (28m 43s): I mean, so yeah, I think for a guy, you know, going steelhead seven and an eight in the 12 and a half, 13 foot range is gonna cover your bases pretty well. Dave (28m 53s): Yeah. And are you using your, your typical kind of like Skagit style lines? Are you using more of that longer belly stuff? 0 (28m 59s): Yeah, I like the older s gadgets, the ones that were, you know, it’s all the running line and the head is all in one and they’re getting harder to find. But yeah. You know, the new setups with the slick shooter and stuff, you know, they throw great and everything just take a little bit of getting used to. I’m kind of a guy that if I find something I like, I I stick with it for a long, long time. Dave (29m 19s): Right. Which is the, like the pulse indicators, right? Those are old school, but they still make those, I’m guessing 0 (29m 25s): They do, but Yeah. I mean, but like you’re saying, yeah, most people are not using them. I think in tail waters where you’re fishing smaller flies, they’re still pretty popular on the stand, Juan. Mm. But you know, just from the point of the reusability, I think for a lot of people it makes sense. Just, you know, they’re not having to constantly buy something. Yeah. Dave (29m 45s): Yeah. Gotcha. So back to that indicator setup. So what is that? So you have the two indicators. Maybe describe your, you know, maybe from the fly, a typical nymph trout leader that you’re fishing. Yeah. 0 (29m 55s): Typical leader on the San Juan. Yeah. So the indicators will be, you know, not too far down the butt section, maybe 18 inches from the fly line itself. And then I’m gonna go, hm, six to eight feet to your heavy fly, your big stone fly. And then, and that’ll be on, you know, tapering down to about four x, maybe five and lower water conditions. And then about 18 inches of tip it to your, your bottom behead or whatever. And that, that’s your basic setup. I mean, that’s it for, yeah. Spring and winter. I mean, I’m fishing a stone, flying an egg 90% of the time rigged. Yeah. You know, maybe eight to the first fly and close to 10 to the second fly. 0 (30m 37s): You wanna get deep, I mean, yeah. The whole, whole point of an indicator rig, making sure you’ve got enough depth to get down there. Dave (30m 44s): Right. So that’s what the, the big stonefly, is that kind of just your weight or you using other weight on the, on the leader? 0 (30m 50s): I’ll add an additional weight if need be, depending on the current. But yeah, I mean, sometimes it’s nicer to just keep it to just flies and just have a heavy fly, good anchor fly that gets you down. Dave (31m 2s): Yeah. So the anchor fly gets you down and does it get down near the bottom, on the bottom and then, or how does that work? 0 (31m 8s): Pretty close. I mean, you know, like they say a good nm for you. If you don’t feel the bottom fairly frequently, you’re you’re not down there. Yeah. But I dunno, some rivers are different though. There’s a river over the past from here, the canose and fish there are consistently mid-level. I mean, if you nymph on the bottom, you, you consistently get in, you too much snags and just, there’s a lot of woody debris on the bottom and yeah, for some, so I think some rivers it can be different. But San Juan, I hear in the headwaters, you wanna be pretty deep down on the bottom. Dave (31m 39s): Yeah. And how big are the, the, the creeks or the rivers you’re fishing up on the San Juan in that upper area? 0 (31m 43s): Well, the upper San Juan’s 60 to 75 feet wide up there. Oh Dave (31m 48s): Yeah. So they’re still pretty decent size. Yeah. Yeah. 0 (31m 49s): It’s pretty good. You know, a good fishing flows are between, oh, a hundred and 125 to two 50 CFS, you know, is a nice comfortable level. I mean, it’s fishable up to around 500 or so, but you can’t weight it, you know, I mean Yeah, yeah. To be able to weight it easily and stuff. Yeah. About about two 50 or less. Dave (32m 8s): Two 50. Okay. And that’s what you guys are doing typically up there, you’re walking, waiting in there. 0 (32m 12s): Yeah, it’s, yeah, you can, there’s, you can float from downtown. There’s some private water with about 400 CFS you can float. It’s a 14 mile float and it’s popular, but it’s a real short window to do that, you know, you’re, yeah. And you’re private land the whole way. There’s a takeout area for lunch, but yeah, you’re, you’re floating, Dave (32m 31s): So you gotta, so you gotta float. How can you anchor up now there, if it’s private land, 0 (32m 35s): You cannot Yeah, no, that’s the problem. Yeah. It’s, you gotta float free or just being an eddy. Yeah. But it, you know, during the time there’s fly shops in Durango, the town an hour west of us, they come over and fish it pretty hard. So, I mean, it’s on the radar. There’s not that many secrets anymore. Dave (32m 52s): No. Right. 0 (32m 53s): I mean that’s, yeah, I mean, the internet, I love the internet, but at the same time, I, I’m try to be protective. I mean, you know, spot burning is a big thing to me. I mean, it just, you try to, I just try to think of how other people would feel and just, you know, I mean, especially if it’s the first time you’ve been to a place, why would you wanna just go and blow it up? You don’t know. You don’t know anything about it. And, you know, I can understand being excited or whatever, but you really have to think. Dave (33m 20s): Oh, right. And you’re saying like, people coming in maybe kind of into an area and then Yeah, maybe they’re new to it and they fish it and they blow it up a little bit, that sort of thing. 0 (33m 28s): Yeah. You know, and it’s, yeah, it could be innocent, but no, I learned as a kid. I mean, I told a friend of mine in school about a spot one time, and the next time I went up there, he was up there with his whole family. Oh, wow. Fishing the place out. Dave (33m 40s): Oh 0 (33m 41s): Man. Yeah, it was a clear, yeah. I was like, huh, I won’t do that again. So, Dave (33m 45s): No, that is tough. 0 (33m 46s): So yeah, I’ve always been kind of secretive, whereas now it’s, you know, the internet, there’s a wealth of information and it’s, it’s neat how guides, I mean, there’s guides. I’ve watched their progress in four or five years. They’ve, you know, it’s amazing how far they can go compared to what it took me to, you know, gradually learn through books and just over time things which, and a slow progression. I mean, I enjoyed it. I mean, it’s, yeah. I mean, sometimes too fast is not as good. Yeah. But it, it’s the way things work nowadays. Dave (34m 20s): Yeah, I agree. I think there’s something to that to, to learn, write, learning and going out to someplace where you don’t have all the answers and you’re actually on the water trying to figure it out. Yeah. 0 (34m 29s): And just in books and stuff, it just, things just happen slowly. Yeah. You just kind of, well, you enjoy that slow progression where, I mean, now. Yeah, I mean, with the internet, I mean, gosh, you can be fishing the best stuff within a year or two and I mean, it just, I don’t know, sometimes it seems a little quick. Yeah. Dave (34m 48s): Wow. Well, so that’s kinda your nipping setup and as you’re getting into it, I guess maybe give us a few more highlights on that. So some of this water, what, what’s your, you get to the stream, I mean, you know, these like the back of your hand, I’m sure, but if you’re trying to find these fish out here, you know, how do you do that in a new water? What are you looking for? 0 (35m 5s): Yeah, I mean, I’m a pool guy, which, you know, I mean, I like runs and pools. I always believe the fish are in the deeper water. And I mean, the Czech nim infant guys have, have shown me, you know, that the pockets and the riffles, you know, there’s things happening there too. But I mean, I think I’ll always be a guy that, you know, when I read rivers, I’m looking, I’m looking for those tasty runs and deep bigger. I just believe that the better fish want the better real estate, and most of the time they do. So it, but, you know, in a, in a stream that only has pocket water, I mean, you kind of have to learn. Yeah. I mean, my hat’s off to some of those guys that can fish that intensive little pockety water and get a fish out of each little Clyde of water. 0 (35m 52s): I mean, it’s good to know that, but it’s not where I like to spend time myself. Dave (35m 57s): No. And maybe not the biggest fish are sitting in those shallower pockets. Right? Potentially 0 (36m 2s): Not, not that often because it’s a safety thing. I mean, the food value has to outweigh the safety thing for big fish to park in shallow water. I mean, as, yeah, I feel in our neck of the woods, birds are probably the highest predator. And with these low, low water years we’ve been having, birds are, you know, they’ve definitely been ruling the game for a while. And So that, I think that, yeah, the smart fish learn deeper water cover and what have you is, and a lot of our streams are, the populations of brown trout seem to be getting stronger. Maybe partially water temperature, partially pressure. They seem a little more resilient to fishing pressure. 0 (36m 44s): So, you know, that’s an interesting change that’s coming about. Right. Dave (36m 48s): I was gonna say more on that. And if, I’m just trying to get a feel for, you know, I think it is a struggle. I think the nipping is hard for people, I think fishing pools. But like, how does that, when you got your setup out there, you’re, you have a pool that you think is gonna hold fish. How are you adjusting your indicator of getting down to the fish, you know, as changes in depths and things, you know, stuff like that is occurring. Yeah, 0 (37m 8s): I mean that’s, I I change depth somewhat. I mean, they say, you know, the top nm fors, it’s all about depth of presentation and weight. So I, I don’t change it. I think mending and drifting, I just try to get a decent presentation in there, or with my client. And I mean, in a lot of these waters that I fished over and over, you know, I’ve got a lot of time on the water, I know, know about what rig is gonna get the job done. Yeah. And I, and in, you know, fish in the summer, they will move more of the strike zone is bigger in the summer fish, you know, they see a bug two, three feet away, they’re gonna move over and grab it. Where in the winter, the strike zone is a lot smaller. 0 (37m 49s): I mean, that’s why you wanna be down on the bottom, drifting it right in their nose, you know, basically putting the fly right to ’em. So I think, yeah, in the summer I’m just focused on getting it in the water column that they’re gonna feed in. But, you know, not obsessing over it. I mean, but you know, I mean, if there’s a difficult fish there that you know is there and you’re rigging, you try your rigging, nothing happens, then it’s time to tweak it a little bit. You know, try. Yeah. Maybe a smaller dropper. And I lo I love that when you come to a pool where you can actually maybe even see a fish, you know, and then yeah, it’s, spend some time working that fish. And that’s always a good experience with a client if you can get ’em to, if you can get ’em to settle down and, you know, you know, a lot of times they don’t even see it. 0 (38m 32s): So, I mean, it’s, yeah. As a guide, that’s one thing I’ve learned over 35 years of guiding is perspective. You know, I mean, your idea of what you think the client is seeing with what they’re really seeing. Right. And yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, you can’t overthink it, but a lot of times they’re not understanding what you’re seeing and you, you need to come up with a, another way to present it or just work harder to get the idea across. Dave (38m 59s): I see. Yeah. So if you see a fish there, how does that work? You see a fisher with a client, how do you get him into that fish? Or maybe he’s not even seeing the fish, right? Well, 0 (39m 7s): Right. I’ll try to get him to see it, but if that’s not working, then I’ll just go off positioning. I’ll try to get him to cast to a point I want, you know, X feet above it or you know, mark it off of something on the bank or whatever. And you know, butch flies there, let him drift through and that way he’s gonna get the drift I want without having to see the fish. ’cause that’s the problem with Nim fing a lot of guys, you need that three dimensional picture in your mind of understanding what the rigging is looking like, how it’s coming through the water, and what you’re trying to achieve. And to a guy that, you know, likes the drive fly, believes in that more, it’s hard for him to get that mental picture. Dave (39m 47s): Right. Yeah. The mental, like under the surface. Yeah. 0 (39m 49s): Yeah. Just the, you know, the imaginary of what’s happening. You know, a guy that’s, you know, done a lot of fishing where it’s all visual, visual, visually he is watching for it. It’s hard to get ’em to, you know, loosen up and just fish like that. I think for a lot of people, that’s what retards them and learning to be a good nim for in the beginning is just the three dimensional picture and being able to visualize what you’re trying to do and make it happen. Yeah. But once you do it, I mean, to me, yeah, Dave (40m 20s): Once you get hook up, 0 (40m 20s): Yeah. It’s second nature. I mean, well just reading the water, I mean, I’ll always have a kind of a visual picture, you know, I’m looking under the water and you can see some of your clients as you get to the pool, you almost can see their vision just bounce off the surface of the water. Yeah. Dave (40m 35s): Right. How, How are you seeing that? How are you looking through the water? Like, if you can’t see totally clear, How are you figuring out what that structure and habitat looks like? 0 (40m 43s): Well, wind, I mean, a lot of, I don’t use polarized glasses a lot, which is rare. I mean, most guides use ’em pretty consistently, but I look for the windows and the water. You know, as you’re walking up the river, all of a sudden there’s that spot maybe behind you where you can suddenly see the whole bottom. Everything you have to find that spot, you know? And a lot of it’s just practice, I think the more you’re looking and then knowledge of, you know, yeah, I’ve been on that river before, so I mean, you kind of, you learn where the fish live and that’s where you’re looking for right time on the water, I think. Dave (41m 17s): Yeah. Time on the water, is it, and spotting fish and seeing fish in the windows and stuff you’re talking about is something that takes time. Right. I mean, a lot of people, like you said, you get a client out there, he might not have any idea to be looking for that window where you can see the fish. Right? 0 (41m 30s): Yeah. And the ability to just make your eyes penetrate the surface. I mean, there’s a little bit of surface glare, but yeah. There, you know, then there’s that window and just being able to, you know, see the window and use it. So I think it just, some of that stuff, it just takes more time to learn. And bottom line for a lot of fishermen, they just don’t get enough time. No. Because they’re not drought bums, you Dave (41m 53s): Know? Yeah. Right, right. 0 (41m 54s): I mean, that’s probably what I feel the most for clients is just, you know. Yeah. Especially the, yeah. The guys that get to do it once, twice a year, you know, they really love it, but they’re kinda like a skier that’s just stuck in that rut because they just can never get over the hump. They’re still good guys, but yeah. Yeah. Dave (42m 11s): You feel definitely still fun to get out, but yeah. What would you tell, so if you see the fish there, How are you presenting that indicator setup to the fish? 0 (42m 20s): I’m trying, you know, like I said, let’s say the fish is four to five feet deep. I’m probably gonna lead it by at least eight to 10 feet. I’m gonna want the drift, I’m, I want the indicators to come a little bit on the inside of them, you know, not necessarily over the top of them in super clear water, you know, and that way you’re presenting, you know, the flies are gonna come to ’em, but not the indicator. Yeah. And sometimes even changing your position, coming in a little bit above So that the flies come down first. I mean, it’s, you know, yeah. Like I say, a fish, once the fish is refused what you got going on, then you have to reevaluate and try to, you know, Hmm. Give ’em something different. 0 (43m 0s): But a lot of times, I mean, we try to rest our fish in there, you know, so I mean it’s, yeah, most of ’em are pretty willing. Dave (43m 7s): Yeah. They’re willing once they see it. What is your, the setup, you talked about the stonefly, what’s a typical, what’s a pattern you might use and then what are you using on your droppers? 0 (43m 15s): IU you know, I use turds a lot of time because they’re a quick, easy tie. And I mean, impressionistically, they’re as good as a stonefly that takes you 30 minutes to tie, I mean, I love Ken Morris’s weapon of mass destruction, but the time to tie it, or like beef’s wired stone, I mean, they’re beautiful flies. I love fishing them, but just, you know, the extra time to tie that fly just kills you. Yeah. Dave (43m 39s): Right. 0 (43m 40s): Whereas, so, you know, yeah. Turds and, you know, probably a size 10 is what I use a lot during the year. Most of our stones are, yeah, from that size all the way up to maybe a six or even a four depending, but it seems like the 10 is just a good across the board size. Dave (43m 56s): And are you, you’re weighting those a little bit? 0 (43m 58s): Yeah, I, I do, well about 20 wraps of oh, 20 in the shank. And then some I’ll put a bead on or something. But generally I like to fish most of ’em without a bead. Dave (44m 10s): Yeah, without a bead. Why is that just a why without a bead? 0 (44m 13s): Just subtle, you know, there’s a time for flashy flies. But yeah, if you’ve got the water clarity, I think a lot of times something subtle. And then for nymphs, I mean pheasant tails, little pheasant tails are one of my go-tos, you know, eighteens and twenties that just a good, good may fly imitation. Just a good little fly Dave (44m 31s): All round. Yeah. But do you put any on the, on those, just a traditional pheasant tail or put any flash in that 0 (44m 37s): Little bit of flash on the back, a little flash booth sometimes. Yeah. I like a little flash on those Dave (44m 44s): Step into the world where the river whispers and the fishing is nothing short of legendary. This year I ventured into the heart of Eastern Idaho’s Yellowstone Teton territory where the fish were larger than life and the waters held the secrets of the best fly fishing out West Yellowstone Teton territory is not just a location, it’s a gateway to adventures that will etch themselves into your memory with crystal clear rivers like the Henry’s Fork and the South Fork of the Snake, and enough lakes to keep you going all year long. Make your way to Yellowstone Teton territory and embark on a journey to one of North America’s finest fly fishing destinations. Whether you’re planning your trip now or just dreaming it up, the YTT is where those dreams turn into reality. Dave (45m 27s): Remember Yellowstone Teton territory, that’s Teton, T-E-T-O-N. It’s time to experience eastern Idaho for yourself and support this podcast at the same time. And how is it, when the stone flies are going down, are you fish? Are they, they’re kind of, the natural insect is just kind of tumbling down, right? Is that what you’re imitating? Yeah, 0 (45m 47s): They’re under the rocks and you know, they get dislodged every once in a while. Or, I mean, you know, I’m sure the fish will even pick ’em right off the rocks. Yeah. I mean, they’re just, the bread and butter on this water system. Dave (45m 57s): They are. What percentage of the fish? Just on a, you know, you say just guessing, you know, you got the two fly or hooking the stone fly versus the dropper 0 (46m 5s): Early season, I’d say 75% the big stone, you know. Oh, wow. And then, yeah, and then as the water clears, you know, midsummer to late summer, you’re gonna get way more fish on the nymphs. Dave (46m 15s): Oh you will? Yeah. 0 (46m 16s): They seem like they’re, you know, they’re focusing in on seeing the bigger stone, but then, oh, I want the little tasty. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Dave (46m 24s): Right. And that’s also after like the stonefly kind of slowly, well, the big stones, don’t they? It’s earlier, right? June, July. Is that in your area? 0 (46m 32s): June is when we’ll get the hatch and you know, yeah, most years they hatch when the water’s too high. I think it was two years ago, I got ’em pretty good. I mean, that’s one plus of these low water years is you’re gonna see a better chance at, at a good stonefly hatch when the water is at a fishable level, you know, because yeah, I think it was June 10th a couple years ago, so I mean, yeah, I’ll be looking for that this year. I mean, nah, you gotta love it when it comes together. I mean, Dave (46m 59s): Since 0 (46m 59s): The only time, only time of the year that you’ll have fish swimming downstream to eat a dryly. I mean Oh wow. I know. Just, just chasing it, you know? I mean, it just, you know, and you pull fish from water that, you know, rarely produces at other times of the year, you’re like, man, how can there be a fish there? Right. Dave (47m 15s): Because they’re going in like, under the, towards the bank, under the trees, that sort of stuff, or 0 (47m 19s): Towards the bank, and they’re just up and looking. It’s like once the word’s out in the river, I mean, those fish are, I mean, yeah, anything orange hits the water. I mean, they’re just waking for it. Dave (47m 28s): That’s it. What, what’s your, what’s your big fly you’re using pattern for those? I 0 (47m 32s): Like the rogue stones. The rogue foam stones. And like about a six. Yeah. For me, that’s a really good pattern. You know, it, it holds up to a few fish. I mean, the, their teeth start catching in that, you know, that’s got that bullet head. Yeah. Bullet. Yeah. The hair, it starts getting ripped Dave (47m 47s): Off. Does it work better? So it works better and it gets ripped 0 (47m 50s): Off. It does, yeah. Yeah. When it’s getting chewed up a little bit, it doesn’t float as well, but it starts, yeah. Dave (47m 55s): Yeah. The bullets. So do you do that and on the, when you’re doing that, is that just strictly that, or you putting a dropper off of 0 (48m 0s): I’ll just go, yeah. When they’re hot, I’ll just go with the stone. Yeah. You, you just, you you want, yeah. You wanna see those fish chasing it, and you just don’t need, yeah. I mean, I maybe fished for an hour that day and shoot, I had probably 10 or 12 nice fish, and I was like, oh, that’s good enough. You know? Dave (48m 17s): What, what’s the, you’re kind of know, I’m not sure if you still do this, but in that, in the movie, you were known for the, I think the, all the photos, right? I think you guys talked about that. Why do you have to take all these photos? But talk about that a little bit because I think photos are, I think they’re really powerful and, and I mean, I, I love a good photo ’cause you, it’s a memory and stuff, but you hear a lot of this stuff about, you know, the keep ’em wet and, and all this stuff that’s going where it’s saying, Hey, do we need to take photos anymore? And people are not showing phish photos as much. Talk about that. What’s your take on photos and what, what do you do out there? 0 (48m 44s): Well, I, yeah, I love photos and yeah, I don’t, I don’t take a photo of every fish. I mean, that’s pumping it up a little bit, but like you say, memorable fish. And for me it’s kind of a, I used to journal, you know, journals in my fishing, and for me, the photos are like a mini journal. I mean, the classic grip and grin, which, like you say, it gets a lot of heat from people. But to me, if I can see the river, the conditions of the river, the fish, the fly in its mouth, you know, the weather conditions, I mean, there’s a story in that picture to me. Right. And there’s a memory of a good fish. I think people, people get a little carried away with complaining about it. But, you know, and I think that comes from an artistic level too. 0 (49m 27s): They’re like, oh, another grip and grin. Right. But I mean, so yeah, I could see where it, for some people it’s gets to be too much. But that’s, you know, it’s personal. If you don’t wanna picture, don’t take one. Yeah. Dave (49m 39s): You don’t have to. Yeah. 0 (49m 40s): Don’t beat a guy up over taking a photo then. No, I agree. And you brought up a good point with the keep ’em wet. Yeah. Thing that started up, you know, I don’t know, five, 10 years ago. And it’s definitely good thought. And it’s definitely, you know, there’s a lot to it, but there’s a multitude of other factors in every catch of a fish that can contribute to the successful release of that fish or not. So I think when people focus just on the keep ’em wet, they’re kind of losing, you know? I mean, yeah, you kept it wet, but you played the thing for 15 minute minutes on six x in 70 degree water, that’s probably Dave (50m 19s): Worse. 0 (50m 19s): Right. It’s, you know, the fish is dead. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah. And you know, like steelhead. Yeah. I’ve even had people bitch at me about a grip and grin. But I mean, my deal on steelhead, I try to fight my fish pretty aggressively, more so than a lot of people land them quick and try to get a photo and get ’em back on the way, you know? Yeah, Dave (50m 40s): Definitely. But 0 (50m 41s): Bottom line, any fishing, I mean, the moment you put a hook into something, you Dave (50m 46s): Know Yeah. You’re putting stress on the fish. 0 (50m 48s): Yeah. You’re pr I mean, the door’s open. And so I just, I can’t stand these people that, oh, I fish catcher release Barbless Hook, and I’ve never harmed a fish in my life and Dave (50m 57s): I don’t hurt the fish 0 (50m 57s): At all. Yeah, yeah. It’s like, please, dude. Dave (50m 60s): Oh yeah, there, there’s some harm. Yeah. We’re all, that’s the, we’re all har I think, I feel like they keep ’em wet is really good because there’s a lot of people that don’t know any, you know, they’re new to it or they don’t know anything, and having them just understand, like some of people don’t even know. Right. They’re like, wow, that’s great to know. But for people like you, people that have fished their lives, you know, you’re keep ’em wet probably isn’t as critical or, you know, you know how to keep a fish healthy. Right. So pulling a fish outta the water for a couple seconds and taking a photo probably isn’t the end of the world. Right. 0 (51m 26s): It shouldn’t be. Yeah. If the fish was hooked in a decent spot’s not bleeding, you played it quickly. I mean, if you, yeah, there’s, you know, a handful of things that you need to do. Right. And the fish will probably be all right. But it’s, yeah. You can’t put yourself on a soapbox though. And Dave (51m 43s): No, you can’t. Well, it’s for the people that, like you said, played it for way too long, the water’s too hot, then they take it outta the water and maybe they’re even in their boat. Right. You hear these things like people taking ’em in their boat and it falls in the bottom of the boat, you know? And Yeah. 0 (51m 55s): Nuts. No. Well, And then, you know, dry handing is a big pet peeve for me. I mean, even, I’m not gonna name anybody, but you’ll see a lot of professional anglers, you know, that it seems like in the heat of the moment getting their clip or their video or whatever, they just seem to forget to wet their hands thoroughly before they handle that fish. And for me, I mean, that’s a real important point, you know, that yeah, you can keep the fish wet, but if you don’t wet your hands And then you handle it, you’re removing a lot of slime and you’re just Yeah. You’re not doing the fish any favors, so, right. I mean, yeah, we all need to work harder to do a good job at taking care of fish. And then, you know, a big thing in steel heading up in British Columbia now is because of the pressure that everybody’s putting on them is, hey, you know, if you have a day where you catch one or two or three steelhead, maybe you should stop fishing. 0 (52m 46s): Oh, right. You know, and that’s, you know, it’s kind of a hard sell to a guy that’s spent a hell of a lot of money to get there. And sure, he caught three fish today, but tomorrow you may not catch any. That’s true. True. So, I mean, it’s, you know, I can understand both sides of the point. I mean, I, I’ve been lucky enough to catch five or six or seven steelhead in a day, and at that point I don’t have any, any problem laying the rod down. Well, you just, you get to the point where if you can’t remember each individual fish, you probably, you’re not doing them justice. So, Dave (53m 17s): No, that’s right. Do you remember on, on, you look at your trout, I mean, do you remember like all the member, like, I’m sure there’s some monster fish that you probably have forgotten, or what, what’s that? Or do you go back to your photo log and say, wow, I remember that one? 0 (53m 30s): Yeah. Every once in a while. Yeah. Because it goes so deep in there, but I, yeah, I remember memorable fish from years ago, and like everybody says, the ones that you lose, the ones you always remember, I mean, yeah. Those are the ones that stay with you forever, you know? Yeah. And that as an angler, you gotta get to a point where you can lose a decent fish, you know, and not necessarily shrug it off, but I mean, don’t let it destroy your day. And I mean, when I was a kid, I’d lose a lung ke Oh yeah. I’d fall on the bank and, you know, yeah. Just go into all kinds of fits. But no, you just, you gotta, you know, accept what happened and get the line back out there and maybe something even better will happen. 0 (54m 11s): But on, on some days though, you know, when you know you’ve been presented with a chance that you worked hard for and if you screwed it up and you know, there’s probably not another chance coming along, it can be hard, but you gotta be able to deal with it. Right. Dave (54m 26s): Definitely 0 (54m 26s): The pain and the pleasure. Dave (54m 28s): Yeah. Yeah. That’s what we love. What is the, well, we’re gonna take it out here in a little bit, but I wanted to get a few more tips outta you on the nipping, you know, especially for trout as we’re talking about. So on, you know, we had the setup, so we’re looking at, we talked about that, the double, and why do you use the double SSA indicators? Why not just use one 0 (54m 46s): With single fly or small flies? I will use one at a time, but when you’re fishing the heavy stone and a smaller bug behind, it seems like the two pulses give you that Levi, the little bit of buoyant, the buoyancy, you need to make the drift. You don’t, you just don’t want it crashing into the bottom and not going anywhere. You need that little Yeah, Dave (55m 5s): Gotcha. A little more flotation. 0 (55m 7s): Yeah. Now putting three on there doesn’t really work for me because you just starting to get too much. Yeah. If, if I’m going with a rig that’s too heavy, then I would switch to the big pulses. I mean the big Oh, okay. You know, big, just a big strike indicator. Like in BC when I’m nipping with, with a heavier hook with an egg, with a heavier hook I use, it’s just like a styrofoam indicator, maybe three quarter inch bright fluorescent, but it just, it’s got a little more buoyancy. Dave (55m 34s): Is that how you do it? How do you do your nipping for steelhead in bc? 0 (55m 37s): Yeah. The same basic thing. Keep the indicator maybe foot and a half from the end of the fly line, and then about eight to 10 feet to the fly. You know, you’re only fishing single fly in bc of course. Oh, single, yeah, yeah. Single on everything. And I mean, they’re, they’re barbless stream and lake province wide, which I mean, that’s pretty awesome, I think. Dave (55m 57s): Yeah. Bar and you are using the egg patterns. 0 (55m 59s): Yeah. Egg pattern. Yep, that’s right. Yeah. That egg patterns, you know, some guys up there are all about to swing, but the eggs, you know, when they get tired and it’s funny and you can swing an egg. And it was, my buddy went out and fished with a guy from Oregon one time, and he started telling him how we swing eggs in BC and his Oregon guy looks at him and he goes, you can’t swing an egg. Yeah. And my buddy’s like, what do do you mean? And it was like, and, and, and the guy goes, eggs don’t swing, but they do. Yeah, they do. So it’s just, oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can totally swing an egg, so, yeah, Dave (56m 33s): Right. It’s just the egg tumble and it swinging, tumbling down. Right. It’s just like tumble down the gravel. Well, 0 (56m 38s): Swinging. It’s a tight line grab. You’re gonna feel it. I mean, I will say that, yeah, eggs you do with aggressive fish. You gotta be careful. Sometimes fish can take it hard, take it deep. But that can be set of a leach too. Yeah. I mean that’s, that’s, you know, back to what we were saying. I mean, any fly guy that tells you, oh, I’ve never heard a fish. Sometimes fish hurt themselves just with the violence that they take a fly. Yeah. And, and there’s really nothing, you don’t have any control over that. I mean, I love streamer fishing and a lot of times you’re, you know, you get some violent takes with streamers because the fish is chasing something to kill it. So I mean, they hit with force and so sometimes things can happen. Dave (57m 17s): Definitely. What’s your typical fly on that and steelhead setup for if the egg pattern? 0 (57m 23s): I tie my own eggs, just, you know, glow bug yarn from California. I tie ’em big, a little bigger than most people, you know, half inch to three quarter inch. I’m on a big old egg floating down there. Sometimes we’ll even tie ’em bigger. But yeah, it’s just a spot of color. Dave (57m 40s): What’s your color? What do you do? Put a little ice spot in it. What’s your color combo you like? 0 (57m 43s): I’m not big on ice spots. I apr cotton peach. Dave (57m 46s): Yeah. And peach. Yeah. And 0 (57m 47s): Salmon just kind of more natural row colors are what I lean towards most of the time. I mean, I’ve seen guys do good with pink. I mean red, red seemed to be good on the Bain, you know, at times. But yeah, when I first started fishing. And then even blue, I guess some eggs as they rot or fungus, I guess they can turn like a bluish color. Mm. Yeah. You don’t hear much about blue eggs, but I mean, they are commercially available and I know one guy that caught like a 25 pounder on the blue egg, so I mean, it can happen. That’s it. Personally, I haven’t fished them though. Dave (58m 23s): Yeah, no, I, and I never fished ’em either. I, I, and I’ve seen ’em, I guess I’ve seen that. But yeah, I think that what you said, the other code are good. The bad bean, you have it in I the name. Right. So even in, I think your email Bain, that’s not an easy river. We fished that. Well, we floated it once down, all the way down through. It was kind of this crazy trip we did. But it’s pretty hard to get in there. Right. You can pay a lot of money to get to the lodges. Where did you guys go to? I’m, or we don’t have to, you don’t have to tell the spots or anything. 0 (58m 49s): No, I fi yeah, I fished out of Nor Lakes Lodge that, that’s the upper lodge, which, yeah, I, I did that lodge probably five or six years. And I mean it, it was owned by Pierce Clegg at the time. He is a great steelhead angler, good friend of mine. And then he sold the lodge to another guy, Billy Labonte, another steelhead guy that used to work for one of the lower lodges. And he’s a great guy too. He is done some improvements. I still have still have friends that go there and I mean, I would do the lodge thing again. It’s just financially, it’s man, I mean, when I started in 99, I think you could do a freeze out week at the Bain for about 1800 bucks. And now, you know, the weeks are seven, eight, 10,000. 0 (59m 34s): Wow. You know Dave (59m 35s): What, and what’s the freeze out week? That’s the last week of the season. 0 (59m 38s): The last week of the season. Yeah. And that’s kind of where I got the feel for the end of the season, I think was just the first couple times I took that discounted trip. Yeah. There was a fly shop in Durango that was hosting a week up there and you know, they had the discounted week and yeah, it sounded doable. I mean, it’s always been hard for me to get away in the fall. I mean, steelheading, it’s comes right at a busy time. So yeah, a lot of work getting ready for winter and just, things are still happening down here. So it, you know, it took a lot for me to finally prime myself away and say, look, you, you know, you want a steelhead, you’re gonna have to break away at this time of the year and do it. So Dave (1h 0m 16s): Yeah, that’s right. 0 (1h 0m 18s): But back to what you were saying on the Ba bean, it’s a, yeah, the Baab Bean is one of those rivers that, it’s weird. I mean, sometimes the guy can come there on his inaugural trip and do really well. I mean, that happened to JT in 2001. I mean he, you know, he did well. Oh he did. Dave (1h 0m 33s): Swinging flies. 0 (1h 0m 34s): Yeah, swinging flies. Yeah. Had a great trip, you know, and then when he came back, was it, it was five or six years later with me on his own, he struggled. But it was, you know, different rivers, different time of the year. That’s one thing I’ve noticed, the colder it is at the end of the season, the Ming with eggs, you know, it can be the secret. Yeah, those fish. Oh right. Kind of the fish are slowing down. They’ve seen so many leeches on the swing, they’re just kind of, they’re turned off. So that subtler drift, you know, works. And I think he just, by not locking into that, he missed out on some opportunities. Dave (1h 1m 10s): Yeah. When were you there? When was that JT trip? The one on the video or the film? 0 (1h 1m 15s): That was 2009 in the film. He’s been up there three times with me. The first time 2001 we did the lodge. He did great. 2006, we kind of fished on our own. He struggled a little bit. We got invited to the lodge for a couple of days to help close it down. He caught a few fish out there. But, you know, just tougher. It was, that was a big, big snow year. They got a lot of snow early up there and just things, but, but back to what we were saying, the bad bean. Yeah. It’s a river that demands you fish your best, but be humble. I mean, when I do the best on the baan, it’s, yeah, I, I fish well, but I don’t, I don’t know. You don’t have expectations. 0 (1h 1m 56s): I don’t go out there. Oh, I’m gonna cut this river in half. I mean, you just, you know that it, yeah, it’s a funny river. I mean, ’cause yeah, it’s, you can fish your ass off and Yeah, you get nothing. I mean, it’s humbled a lot of people, but then you get those days where you Dave (1h 2m 11s): Course could be great. Yeah. God, yeah. We, I’ve talked about this before on the show, but back when we did the first, we floated down all the way through the canyon. It was super intense. We didn’t know what we were getting into. It wasn’t guided. We just went in and it was, 0 (1h 2m 24s): Yeah. And that, that’s a rough trip. I mean, like you say, I mean that’s, it was more the experience of just doing it. Yeah. Right. And it if, yeah, if you catch a few fish on the way, good enough. That’s Dave (1h 2m 34s): Exactly how it worked. So 0 (1h 2m 35s): You guys didn’t helicopter out at the Gale Creek or whatever you Dave (1h 2m 39s): No, no. We float it all the way. Yeah. All the through. Yeah. We, we had these route I and I was lead, I had more experience. So I was kind of the lead boat. We had a pontoon boat and a bigger and a smaller boat. Yeah. We got this, we had this guy from Canada who gave us like back of the napkin sort of directions on, you know, where to go. You had this one called, you know, stay, ride or die Rapid. He had this one that was like the boulder garden and everything was way bigger than we thought, you know, in technical. And yeah, there’s one rapid down there that’s so tight. You gotta ship your oars in. You could barely fit the boat through the, the slot. 0 (1h 3m 7s): Well, yeah, the sphincter, I believe Dave (1h 3m 8s): They call it ser. Is that what it’s Yeah, yeah. Sphincter. So luckily the water was kind of lower, so it made it a little bit easier. I couldn’t imagine doing that at a higher flow. It would’ve been intense, but it was still already intense. We were, we had dry suits on And we were all, like, we, we like literally ate for 10 days, ate those freeze dried foods. Right. The meals to save weight. But we survived. We survived. I can tell you my top three steelhead of my life to this day still are from that, that float. 0 (1h 3m 34s): Sweet. Dave (1h 3m 34s): Yeah. So it was worth it. 0 (1h 3m 35s): Yeah, no, that’s, I mean, like you say, yeah, you’ll, you’ll be on your deathbed and you won’t forget that one. Yep. Dave (1h 3m 41s): Yeah, 0 (1h 3m 41s): Exactly. That’s awesome. Dave (1h 3m 42s): Well, what should, before we get outta here in a bit, I do, I wanna, like I said, I wanna get a couple tips outta you, but what is your, you know, again, looking at all these fish, you know, you can’t look at all of ’em, but what would be your story? Do you have one that’s like memorable that you think back, you’re like, man, that your deathbed story, do you have one out there? 0 (1h 3m 58s): God, there’s a lot of ’em, Dave (1h 3m 60s): Or is it too many at this point? Do you kind of go back and probably forget? 0 (1h 4m 3s): Yeah, it’s hard. I mean, well this year, as you might have heard, I mean the runs rebounded a lot. Dave (1h 4m 9s): Oh yeah. So you were there this year? I 0 (1h 4m 11s): Did, yeah. I went, yeah, I skipped last year and then went this year and yeah, it was, it was good. Good season. It was, yeah. And you know, the weather was funny though. I mean, a lot of people got burned. I mean, it was good. It was good in August, which is really weird. I mean, early fish and then the first part of September was good and then a lot of people got burned on the back half of September high water and just, you know, and then another high water in October, you know, so me coming late, there was even, there was another blow on the bulky when I was there late, but I was able to work around that. And so part of my plan is mobility. I mean, you know, that’s the key. Not being at a lodge that’s tied to one or two rivers is if you have a vehicle and you’re not afraid to drive, there’s more out there and it just gives you more versatility and that that tends to work. 0 (1h 5m 0s): But yeah, no lifetime fish, I mean, yeah. On the baine there’s, you know, I’ve been lucky to get a handful of big fish here and there and you just, yeah, they’re all memorable. I mean, one, one thing I like to do is sometimes I’ll go out on the river in the public areas and just pick up trash, you know, I mean, trash on the rivers bugs me. So sometimes I’ll just go out and do a couple bags of trash first just to see if I can improve my caramel a little bit. Right. And sometimes it works. Yeah, no, I remember cleaning up a fire pit under a bridge at the baine bunch of broken glass and just nasty, you know, I got done with that and went up to a flat and started fishing and hit about five in a row. 0 (1h 5m 42s): Oh wow. The last one was like pushing 40 inches. And I was like, geez, that’ll work. Wow. Those are, yeah, fish like that, you’re just like, you know. Yeah, Dave (1h 5m 51s): That’s huge. 40 inches. Yeah, that’s giant. 0 (1h 5m 54s): Oh, you realize how special they are. I mean, you know, it’s, it’s funny. Yeah, with steelhead, I mean everybody wants one of those, but I’ve found, you know, it’s best to not even think about it. The guys that are always screaming, I want the big one, man, it chases them away. You know, those guys catch 10 pound hens their whole life, which, you know, I mean every steelhead is wonderful. But no, there’s something about a big buck you wanna, yeah, it’s nice to get into a big buck every once in a while. Dave (1h 6m 22s): Yeah. It’s, god. That’s great. Well, give us a couple before we jump outta here, you know, back to the, just on the trout takeaway, give us a few, so somebody’s out there nipping, they’ve got their set up, you know, what are a couple, two or three tips you’re giving them to have, you know, more success out there? 0 (1h 6m 36s): Just yeah, be, be good at your men’s. I mean, natural drift is important, I think. Yeah, I think back to what we’re saying, yeah. Being able to get the drift, you know, lead the fish by enough, put a nice mend in there and you know, get the flies to come by the fish naturally. Line management I think is, yeah, presentation. Yeah, that’s the biggest, I mean, yeah, some guys believe that presentation trumps selection, meaning, you know, it’s not, you don’t have to have the right fly. You just have to have a decent looking fly that fishes Well, and I mean, and in a lot of situations I, I think that’s true. I mean, you know, you’ve got a happy fish that’s up working, feeding. Yeah, he’s not, but then there’s other times, man, you see fish like on ants where fish will just dial in for whatever reason and it’s like, I want an ant and that’s all I want. 0 (1h 7m 24s): Yeah. I think it’s something about the taste with ants. I mean, oh yeah, yeah. We see that with fish in the summer, you know, that’s one, that’s one thing I would say. Yeah. Some of our fish that are getting difficult in the summer on top, you know, we’ll fish a little ant pattern bomb behind a dryly. That’s, you know, because ’cause yeah, when they kind of half sink, they’re hard to see. But if you can kind of key off of that front drive fly and see what’s going on, that’s, that’s a good tip for fish that, yeah, Dave (1h 7m 50s): That’s, so ants are killer. And what size ant typically are you using? 0 (1h 7m 55s): 14 to eighteens, you know, nothing huge and sparse little patterns that kind of drop into the film a little bit. Right. Dave (1h 8m 2s): Yeah. Juicy little ant. Yeah. Amazing. Well, one more random one here before we get outta here. I know I do, I love a lot of wood splitting as well. I’m out there. I kinda love a good fire. I’ve, So that came, came out in the, in the movie as well. Some of the, I think they talked about that. But what is that for you? Are you, is what? Is wood cutting wood, are you still doing that and what does that do for you? 0 (1h 8m 22s): I am, but I’m starting to slow down. I mean, I’m 58 and a half this year, so it’s, yeah, I’m kind of transitioning whether I want to or not. And it’s a challenge, you know, because yeah, in the wood businesses I’ve always worked for myself and it, yeah, it’s tough, you know? Yeah. Dave (1h 8m 38s): Loading up a pickup, right. 0 (1h 8m 40s): Yeah. And then tree work and stuff. Last year I had a pretty good job at a big ranch doing tree work, which I’m hoping to get back, but it’s, you know, I don’t know the economy’s, it’s interesting times, you know? Yeah. Dave (1h 8m 52s): It’s a lot of questions out there right now. 0 (1h 8m 53s): A lot of questions, a lot of hesitancy. So yeah, it’s gonna be an interesting year. And then on the, on the guiding, you know, we’ve got our water issues and stuff, but I’m, I’m looking forward to a good season and just gotta stay positive I think, and focus on your own little world as much as you can and you know, Dave (1h 9m 9s): Yeah. Keep going. How many days on the, what you mentioned of the guiding, are you getting quite a few days on the water yourself? Just for personal still? 0 (1h 9m 18s): Oh yeah, I, you know, I mean I try, I mean I, you know, and a lot of times I’ll work most of a day and then sneak off for an hour or two. I mean that, that’s what I always used to do and it’s gotten a little harder to do now that the town’s so much busier and bigger. But I still have, still have places I can sneak off to. But yeah, no, I never get enough fishing. But I will admit as I get older, yeah, sometimes it’s harder to fish like I used to when I was younger. I mean you want to, but it’s just, you know, sometimes it’s just harder to get out there. Dave (1h 9m 51s): Yeah, definitely. Well we haven’t been the San Juan. Yeah, that’s a famous river. You know, you hear a lot about it. I’ve never fished it, but I’m hoping, you know, maybe this will be the year that we can get out there and check it out, but, but yeah. Alex I think we can leave it there for today. I think this has been really cool to hear a little bit of the insider information on, you know, kind of what keeps you going there. Anything else you wanna leave us with before we get out here? 0 (1h 10m 12s): Well, if you, yeah, if you’re seriously thinking about the San Juan, there’s a guy there that he started working there just in the last few years. A guy, James Garrettson, he calls himself about trout. He might be an interesting guy for you to talk to. Okay. Dave (1h 10m 26s): Yeah, 0 (1h 10m 27s): He’s got a pretty good, you know, he’s out there on Instagram quite a bit and I think he might be open to talking to you and if you do decide to go there and fish, he would be a great person to fish with. I mean there’s a lot of other good guides there, but he’s come a long way in a short time and yeah, he’s a good guide so check him out if you get a chance, we’ll do that. Yeah, and as I said earlier, yeah, I mean I’d be happy to appear with you again sometime. There’s always more to talk about with phishing. Dave (1h 10m 53s): Yeah, definitely. No, I think we could probably go deeper on any of these topics we kind of covered highlighted today, so. So we will send everybody out to Alex Zini on Instagram if they wanna connect with you and learn more there. And we’ll keep up and also low and clear. We’ll have a link in the show notes if people wanna take a look at that, that movie there. And yeah, Alex, appreciate it again to your time and we’ll be in touch moving ahead. 0 (1h 11m 14s): Alright, thank you Dave. Yep, enjoyed it. Dave (1h 11m 18s): All right. If you had any interest in checking out this part of the world, would love if you checked in with Alex, go to Alex Zini on Instagram or just let him know you heard this podcast, upper San Juan. The San Juan, I definitely want to get out there. Love that. We talked about the turd stone, some of these patterns, he kind of breaks it down and makes it sound easy. All we know it’s not. So check in with him, please subscribe, follow this show if you get a chance. You wanna get that next episode right to your inbox. That’s a good way there. And wanted to give a shout out before we get outta here, the Missouri River trip. Go to swing.com/missouri. You can check in there. We will have more details on that trip and you can get more information. We got a limited slots for that. Dave (1h 11m 58s): We’re gonna be hitting the big, the Mighty Mo this fall about the same time, maybe a little earlier than Alex is gonna be heading to the BC and Phish if he’s going this year. But we’re gonna be hitting the Missouri big trout, big fish, lots of fish. So check in with me if you want that information and we’ll get outta here. I hope you have a great morning. Hope you have an amazing afternoon or a fantastic evening if it’s evening, wherever you are in the world. And appreciate you for stopping in all the way to the end. Talk to you then.