CJ’s Reel Southern Podcast #7 | Seasons and Strategies on the White River with Morgan Guss and Matt Millner

Chad (00:02) Welcome to CJ’s Real Southern Podcast. I’m your host, Chad Johnson, fly fishing guide, storyteller, and southern soul through and through. From the front porch to the river banks, this podcast is gonna be about connection, friends, and maybe learning a trick or two about trophy fishing. So grab a sweet tea, tie on your favorite fly, and let’s go fishing. Hey, we’re here with Morgan Gus from Diamond State Fly Shop. He’s going to give us our October fishing report. How we doing, Mr. Morgan? Man, we’re killing it. ⁓ What should people be looking for or trying to do come October? Morgan (00:41) How are you, Chet? October I think is a really good time to Generally and I want to say generally come out and see a little bit lower water Generally, mm-hmm never hold me to that Chad (00:58) Yeah. Nah, it’s a tailwad. Morgan (01:04) That’s when I like to push a lot of those guys that are coming out trying to do some wade fishing. I tell them that that’s your best opportunity to get a chance at wade. Chad (01:13) Fall is the best time to get that opportunity. That’s right. Morgan (01:16) Rainbow bites really good. So we’re catching a lot of rainbows, especially in that minimum flow throwing a couple midges Under an indicator works really good hopper dropper fishing still working really good The bigger brown trout can be a little bit harder to come by doesn’t mean you can’t catch them But for doing that longer casts hopper dropper seems to be working the best for me Chad (01:31) That’s right. Yeah, and we just don’t have that big fall run that everybody else gets. It’s not a brown trout time of year for us. Morgan (01:43) Yeah, I think we get a lot of guys coming out here trying to do like the fall streamer thing for big brown trout Chad (01:47) Yeah. And it’s just because everywhere else that makes sense. Morgan (01:53) Stay out West if you want to do that. You know, if you want to come catch a bunch of fish, have a good time. Chad (02:00) Family yeah, yeah bring your beginners Morgan (02:03) Yeah, if you’re just getting into the sport, it’s a great time to be out here and take a guided trip. You’ll get a lot of repetitions, which is really nice. And it’s fairly user friendly fishing. Chad (02:13) Beautiful that time of year gorgeous not burning up So yeah great time to bring those guys in and get some wading in and or get your beginners going and all right awesome so what ⁓ You kind of spoke on it a little bit. So you’re thinking we’re talking midges and Just really low water fare, right? Yeah, but towards ⁓ The further we get closer we get to winter and the further we get away from summer the fewer hatches we have other than our mid chat. So it’s going to be predominantly me. Morgan (02:48) Predominantly midges or what I like to call those attractor style patterns. Yeah, like lightning bugs. Yeah cells things of that nature Chad (02:55) Yep. Even though there’s no maple eyes in the water at that time of Matt (03:00) Yeah, but I mean… Chad (03:02) No, that trick. Morgan (03:02) I’ve never seen a pearl mayfly. Chad (03:04) No, me either or not. Not once. That’s right. There’s so many of those patterns. Morgan (03:11) You know what I’m talking about. Yes, like I’ve never seen one with pink ribbing on it Not that fluorescent pink but yeah those kind of patterns Hopper dropper stuff something that’s gonna be buoyant visible that can work as a bobber Chad (03:15) No. No, not one. Yep, and it’s still fun. You still get one every once in a while come up and slap on it and catch a brown for the day. Yeah, yeah, that’s right. And with our lower water, it’s just very conducive. All right. Well, that’s what we’re going to be doing during October, guys. Today, I’m excited. We’re going to keep Morgan Gus online with us. We’re not going to kick him off this time. Finally. Morgan (03:35) It is, yeah. Chad (03:51) And then I have a good friend, Matt Milner from Rising River Guide Service that’s here with me. Matt, good to have you. Matt (03:59) Thanks for having me, Chad. Look forward to talking with you guys. Chad (04:01) Yep, absolutely. So Matt has He’s kind of one of our old school guys. He’s been in the area a long time He got it down on the Little Red for a period of time Then he and him and his wife moved up here to Cotter and started a service here several years ago and he had already got it on these waters a lot where he would travel up from the Little Red and fish this fishery combined with that one depending on what the water flow was and who his customers were. We’ll let him talk a little bit about that. ⁓ Matt (04:36) Well, Chad, you know, I grew up fishing the Little Red and my dad had a place down there and that was kind of, you know, how I fell in love with Arkansas. We fished up here. We fished Mountain View a lot and we fished the confluence a lot would stay at Peel’s, but really my wife and I met out in Steamboat Springs, Colorado. And when I realized that I missed Arkansas and wanted to come back, I don’t want to say I had mastered the Little Red because I no one masters anything, but I, felt like I had figured it out pretty good. And you know, sometimes you just get tired of launching at Cotter every day. You want to go somewhere else. A little red is a little bit smaller river. didn’t have quite the diversity that I had up here. And so we landed on Cotter when we came back, just so we had a little bit more opportunity for, you know, just some more water to fish really. Chad (05:25) Yeah, yeah. And I mean, there’s really a ⁓ little bit bigger fly fishing scene up here. Not that there’s not plenty going on on the Little Red, but a little more of a scene up here, if you will. Absolutely. And so that’s actually been a lot of fun just to see over the last few years how so many people like you and myself and different people that have moved into the area that’s making it that fly fishing community. You know, think of the number of guys. know I was fixing to reach out and go and then Mr. Morgan come to us from out of state as well. So it kind of tell us where, ⁓ how’d you end up here, Mr. Morgan. And by the way, Morgan is the owner ⁓ and manager at Diamond State Fly Shop here in Cotter, Arkansas. Morgan (06:15) Yeah, so funnily, I met my wife who’s from Northwest Arkansas out in Steamboat Springs. Matt (06:24) Both of us met Arkansas girls to come back to Arkansas. In Colorado. Yeah, exactly. In Steamboat. Morgan (06:30) ⁓ Chad (06:31) Yeah Morgan (06:33) So she wanted to be closer to family back in Arkansas, Northwest Arkansas. I wanted to be in the fly fishing industry year round as I was out when I was in steamboat. was guiding in the summers, working on the resorts in the winter. So flip flopping, you know, I’ll still take some guide trips in the winter, but. Chad (06:51) But having to have another source of income. Matt (06:54) you have a huge grasshopper crawling on your ⁓ like right behind your back. Chad (06:59) And that’s what we do. We bring our work into the office with us. So he’s going to tie something to look like that way. Yeah. Research and develop. Matt (07:11) Research project. Morgan (07:15) ⁓ yeah, so met her out there. She wanted to come back here. We kind of landed on. Caught her just because of the fish ability. We knew Matt and Ellie, out from steamed up that thing just hop off. ⁓ so we, we came out here. it was nice to have some people we knew friends in the community, ⁓ to kind of get us started, especially for me, not being, you know, I moved out to Arkansas pretty much on a whim. Chad (07:45) And kind of that fly fishing scene kind of drew you and you were like, okay, well, there’s enough of this going on in Arkansas to do something. Morgan (07:56) I would be sitting in lift watching videos of you know, like you guys did the streamer Chronicles That kind of thing some of Matt’s videos from back in the day And I was just like, man, it just looks like a fun place to be I can fish year-round It worked out and I just wanted to come out here. So that’s where we made Chad (08:14) That is one of the great things about it is the year round part of it. Getting to have a year round fishery where, and not just a fishery, like we have multiple fisheries we can go to at any point in time and fish for multiple different species of fish, which I just think is so cool. You bet. Right. ⁓ the diversity is ridiculous. ⁓ so that’s actually what we’re going to talk about a little bit tonight. You know, we talk about. trophy hunting, but we also want to talk a little bit about the White River and trophy hunting here and you know, maybe giving some tips, but maybe managing some expectations and just kind of telling you what each season offers so that you can kind of better decide when you’d like to come to the Ozarks or when you’d like to visit the area. And so ⁓ we’re just going to start. by walking through the season. So I don’t know about you guys, I typically don’t start up anymore. I used to start at the beginning of January. Now I start at the end of January. I start the last week of January every year. ⁓ And of course that’s into basically our streamer season, but our streamer season can be anything from guys dead drifting minnows under indicators to… streamer fishing to multiple different things. It’s just almost, not all, almost all done with ⁓ bait fish or minnow ⁓ during the winter. But what time of the year do y’all start typically? Matt (09:54) Well, know, Chad, I’m kind of with you. I like to take part of January off, you know, we enjoy going back out to steamboat and skiing some and, know, just doing a little bit of a reset and January’s cold. so I normally take January off and kick back into gear on February 1st when they opened the dam back up and fish that through, you know, December really. Chad (10:15) Mm-hmm. What about you Morgan? Morgan (10:17) Yeah, I’m about middle January. So beginning of the year is when we do inventory, kind of reset the shop for the year. So we get done with that. And then, you know, about the 15th is usually when I try and start to kick off my season. Chad (10:32) Okay. And then make no mistake guys, any of our, outfitter services can obviously set you up any time of the year. There’s just, ⁓ you know, a few of us take off and go do something and there’s still some people here working. So we have some people still here working for you, but, ⁓ we’re just lucky enough to get to take that time off. But of course, Morgan’s saying who’s getting off. He’s over here counting flies for the season. ⁓ Morgan (11:00) I’m still going to be just out on the rig. Chad (11:02) You’re not going to be over skiing or in Turks shooting at bone fish or no, you’re going to be counting bones. Morgan (11:08) of the year I’m going to be over here counting. Chad (11:10) giving us a very bad look right now, guys. Matt (11:13) There were many years, Chad, I didn’t take any time off in January either. Well, you couldn’t. And I know you couldn’t. Yeah. The phone didn’t ring enough, so when it rang, you took it. Chad (11:18) I didn’t either. You went to work. Yeah. I mean, that’s a thing that I think just as we’ve gotten later, I don’t work weekends anymore. Like I had to work for 15 years to get to the point where my customers went, okay, yeah, we don’t need to go on the weekends. We can go during the week when there’s not as many people. But that took a long time to get there. I used to work every for 15 years. I worked every weekend. That’s right. Right. That’s right. Yeah. And so it’s just as we get older and as we’re getting to maybe play just a little bit more but just talking about that time of year I know for me specifically ⁓ I just have enough streamer guys that I’m 99.9 percent streamer fishing through those through that early season January February beginning of March There’s a lot of different ways to catch these fish. You don’t have to be a streamer fisherman to come that time of year and still catch fish. I know you guys are doing some stuff other than streamer fishing during the year. What kind of tactics or techniques would they be looking at? If somebody said I wanted to come during the winter and have the opportunity at a nicer fish, but I can’t throw a seven inch streamer with a sinking line on an eight weight all day. What would that look like? What would we be doing, Morgan? ⁓ Morgan (12:47) Mostly I’m going to be nymph fishing, but there’s usually going to be some version of a bait fish pattern. Smaller, you know, ⁓ even, mean, I get away with white wooly buggers, white jig wooly bugger works pretty good, you know, and varying depth just on how I’m fishing those, whether it’s up tight against the bank or fishing some grass lines or deep troughs or whatever. Chad (12:56) Wiggle minnows, whatever. Yeah. Morgan (13:17) That depth can vary and that weight can vary ⁓ Personally for the indicator side of it I like pushing up against the bank and looking for those fish that would Come out and chase a streamer or something Chad (13:28) like that same fish that would bite on a feed that wouldn’t chase a fly. Right. Yeah. And what about you, Matt? I mean, I know that time of year, I mean, there’s, like I say, there’s so many different ways to catch fish. like whether it be with the indicator, not with the indicator, like, mean, whether, mean, a lot of it, we go up to the dam and we fish a floating minnow as an indicator. And that is loads of big fish. So like what, give me another. like technique that we would be using other than just the deep water nip and sure. Matt (14:04) Sure, I think Morgan kind of covered the nymph and stuff or even fishing the edges like we do our girdle bugging You know, we kind of do that with some mott flies. Yeah some minnow patterns Chad (14:13) People don’t think about that. What do you mean when you say just like we do our girdle bugs, expand on that just a little bit. What’s your rig look like? What are you doing? Matt (14:22) I’m usually about nipple deep, no matter what the flow is. You know, that’s kind of, if I’m on those edges, I’m trying to fish it somewhere around four foot deep or so. And ⁓ I’m fishing it right, just as tight as I can get it on the areas with fast currents and color changes and, you know, transition water where rock turns to grass or where grass turns to gravel or, you know, just kind of hunting those edges, not just blind casting 10 foot off of it. Chad (14:50) Right. Matt (14:51) down the guts, know what I mean? Really finesse fit in it. Chad (14:53) your fate. So people think sometimes that as soon as we put them under a bobber that they’re just bobber fishing. Well, back in the day, that was kind of true. Cause back in the day, I know when I first got here, like you get pink one on, you get that sucker as long as you can with a big old split shot and you you plop it over the edge. ⁓ so I know at times I’ve got people from my Mississippi club that go, Matt (15:10) Warm on. Chad (15:25) no, we don’t like that trout fishing. You’re just looking at a bobber and that’s cause that’s the mentality and that’s what they’ve done with the bobber. But if you come out here and you fish our girdle bugs with us or fish our mop rigs with us, when we’re fishing tight to the bank and fishing like you’re talking about, you better know what you’re doing. You better be able to feed those seams and keep a good dead drift. And it’s not as easy as people think it is. I see a lot of people that don’t get anywhere close to what I’m wanting them. Matt (15:57) That’s right, three feet, three feet too far away. Chad (16:00) Yes. Morgan (16:00) I think it’s way more technical than people make it out to you. Yes. It’s like, it takes a little bit more of a mental game of knowing how that bug’s going to sink through water column drift, where it is under that indicator, how it’s moving through that water column. You know, when do you pick up in front of that rock? How far do you let it drift? Whereas, you know, like hopper fishing, it’s a hopper. You can see it. You know, if it’s coming up to that stick, you can. skated out of there. Chad (16:30) Yeah, you’re fishing with your imagination when you kind of have to know where that bug is so you know if you’re tight enough how far out you are and at that point you got to realize that we’re throwing close enough that we’re worried about all that stuff that goes back to what Matt said if you’re Tim just throwing 10 foot out and going okay I’m fishing then You know, that’s just a little different style. That’s not what we’re looking for. We’re trying to pull those big Browns off the bank by doing that. And, ⁓ so yeah, much more technical if you’re doing it right. Yeah, that’s right. ⁓ and so I would say that the bulk of people that are fishing during the winter are covering that. know there are, there are certain amount of guys out there that, you know, Morgan (17:07) Turn it right. Chad (17:24) It’s kind of hard to say you get in trouble with all everything. You know, we try very, very hard that time of year to stay off of the beds. And when you’re fishing the banks, you’re not on the beds. And those fish are not on beds if they’re overfeeding on banks. And it’s just a really good way to stay off of them. If you know me, I had to throw that in there. I’m trying to take care of Whitlock’s babies. There aren’t many of them left. And so that’s just my little two cents. Nobody has to say anything about that. Sorry, I always have to throw that in when we’re talking about our winter fishing, man. If we all want to make our living off of brown trout and we want to, people want to come to town and catch brown trout, we have to let them do their thing. You know, otherwise they’re not going to give us anymore. And that’s that bitter root strain that Whitlock brought to us. You know, the hatchery can’t put that back in. So there’s just worth protecting guys so if you’re listening to this and you’re coming down and fishing one good way to know that you’re Not fishing Reds is to fish the banks and you’ve just heard all of us guys talk about catching really nice fish that way and so Yeah, anyway think about that as we move on to ⁓ spring Matt (18:45) Absolutely. No, you’re, you’re right, Chad. mean, those fish are, they’re special. And if we could all get collectively, leave them alone or, know, they would repay us leaps and bounds. They would. That’s just the thing is it’s everybody wants a picture these days and a lot of guys aren’t willing to put in the work to catch a nice fish on a way that may be more challenging than using a, a, an egg, you know? so it’s just, that’s been the culture in Arkansas for a long time. ⁓ I think. Arkansas trout fishing got put on the map with quite frankly, Cal Shoals on the Little Red River coming to catch a monster brown. Chad (19:22) Bullshattering down. That’s why they closed it down. Absolutely. Is because of the ridiculousness. Yeah. But anyway, we’ll move on to spring. Get everybody else sending us emails and fussing at us. And the guy don’t ever cussing us. so, all right. ⁓ But anyway, you know, our spring is ⁓ Matt (19:34) for different topics. Chad (19:48) It’s just so different for us than it was back in the day when I first got here. When I first got here, I don’t know, Matt, you got to fish it as a kid. You’ve probably seen it before there was any. But when I got here, there was the catas were beginning to happen. Like I kind of felt like that I could mark my calendar about March 15th when Sal bug come to town. Everybody would be tying caddis flies and there would be caddis in the airs every time we done sal bug. And it was enough of a hatch that it was worth doing. It was fun. was, you know, there were some bugs, some fish would come up to them, but it wasn’t a prolific hatch. I mean, it wasn’t like this big catastrophic bugs everywhere. We would get a couple of weeks of Matt (20:21) Absolutely Chad (20:45) some nice hatches. Matt (20:46) That’s right. lot of rainbows feeding on the top and you know, it was a lot of fun back then. I think minimum flow afforded us the ability to keep a lot of those larva wet longer, you know, and gave us the opportunity to build better hatches. Chad (21:00) Yes. my God. Yeah. Our minimum flow may have taken a lot of Wade fishing spots away from Wade fishermen, but making a mistake is incredible for our bug life. And something to think about our river on the bug life is we’re a young river. You know, when I came here, the river was 50 years old. Right. Right. And so it was a warm water fishery. And so we had warm water bugs on it. And so it’s taken a matter of a period of time for these bugs, these cold water bugs to establish themselves. And we’ve kind of been fortunate enough that it’s kind of happening right in front of our eyes. Like we’re here through that time that they’re beginning to establish themselves. So like, I don’t know about you, Morgan, but like, as far as just numbers of brown trout, I don’t know if I catch any more numbers of brown trout than through catas season. mean, it’s- just as far as numbers. Morgan (22:01) Yeah, numbers wise, when they’re eating those caddis, they’re eating those caddis. Chad (22:06) Yeah. Every fish in the river. I’ve heard the bait fishermen say that they can’t even catch their minnows that time of year. Cause all their dang minnows are eating the caddis. Yeah. Morgan (22:17) Um, but going back to what you were saying about, used to be March. It’s seemingly starting to trickle back. feel like I’ve even seen that since I’ve been here and I’ve been here since 2020. I feel like we’re seeing those caddis just a little bit later. Chad (22:35) absolutely. mean, Matt, we were kind of talking about the fact that like we can mark March 15th with it, but how hard has it been to get your customers on the right dates over these last few years? We are getting to see all of these things change in front of us, but they’re also they’re changing in front of us. So like we’re trying to keep up. We’re doing the best we can with where to put people to get what they want, but We’re literally seeing it change in front of our eyes, right? Matt (23:08) Absolutely. and caddis are so temperature dependent, you know, and when you and I both started working on the white river or in Arkansas, I don’t believe our winters were as cold. You know, we would get cold snaps and even some snows, like, we get almost every winter, a couple of weeks of sub freezing temperatures. Yeah. And that lake flips every year in March. And all of a sudden we now have. 39 degree water rolling through the dam and that very very very rarely used to happen 15 years ago. Chad (23:44) I think that’s spot on exactly what’s causing the delay. Matt (23:48) So we’ll be lined up, you know, and all of a sudden then that lake flips and, you know, everything above the water is moving into spring. know, red buds are popping, mushrooms are starting to come up. Where are the caddis? Well, the water is still too cold, you know? Yep, that’s right. And that’s what’s affecting us. We can’t predict that. Chad (24:07) And it’s all water dependent. Absolutely. We can’t predict it. mean, it’s whether, like you say, a lot of us guides, Morgan, all of us, get booked well in advance. So like we can’t wait and go, okay, what kind of winter did we have? We’ve got to book dates and like we’re trying to put everybody on the right dates and that type thing, but it’s really crazy the way it’s changing in front of us like this. And so we’re seeing that hatch kind of. back up and it’s a little tough to determine what time in spring that hatch is going to start for us anymore. Matt (24:43) I tell people ⁓ I used to kind of plan it. I used to could tell you, you you could be here April 15th and there’d be low water for the farmers or, you know, I used to have an idea and now I tell them it’s just scratching lottery tickets. Chad (24:56) Yeah, that’s exactly right. And I mean, here’s the thing. No matter what, it’s an incredible fishery. You’re going to have a good time. We’re going to see some nice fish. It can be the difference in how many of those you see and how cool it is the way you get to catch them. I mean, obviously, we understand what people are coming here for. But, you know, a good angler also knows when it’s time to change tactics and do something a little different. anytime you come to one of these tailwaters, no matter what season you’re coming for, you’re going to be looking at that. I mean, that’s part of our fishery. For caddis, we’d like to see lower water. For hoppers, we’d like to higher water. For streamers, we’d like to higher water. We’d like to see lower water during our fall. But if you came for any of those and it was different, we’re still going to have some cool fishing for you. Matt (25:50) That’s right. You’re still going to see eagles. You’re still going to see a giants from under the boat. mean, you know, we’re spoiled because a tough day on the white river is still better than most days on a lot of fisheries in this country. Chad (26:04) Whoa. Isn’t that the truth? So how crazy is it when you’re getting customers in your boat and they’re going, go, ⁓ yeah. You know, we kind of got just kind of average rainbows and they catch one and they go, my God, these are nice. And I’m going, ⁓ these are, yeah, these are great. mean, you know, so Morgan (26:06) heck of a lot better. mean, like, I think it’s, we do get spoiled and it’s hard to kind of bounce ourselves out of that in some of those days where you’re like, man, I only caught 20 fish today. know, 20 fish is, it’s a good amount of fish in a lot of places. You know, and your rod’s bent most of the day. You know, for us, no, it’s not a good day. You know, we expect more, but we know what we can do out here and what this fishery can provide. Chad (26:42) Yes. Yeah, Jade, well, it’s easy for our customers as well. You know, they come one time and they do something and they get something through a season and they come back the next time and it’s totally different. And they’re just like, well, what happened? It’s like, this is not a Disney ride. You do not pay your ticket and get to go down the same trail every single time. That’s not the way this game works. We are in nature. Matt (27:21) interacting with wildlife. Chad (27:23) Yeah, that’s right. But ⁓ something for us that has kind of not happened, I’m kind of jumping on here. Well, you know what, before I do, let’s talk real quick about the tactics we would use for some of our caddis, because it can be really different, because at times we’re dead low water and we’re nymph in the middle of the river. The next time it’s high water and we’re dry fly fishing behind a bush which seems totally backwards. It seems like you would be dry fly fishing on low water and you would be nymphing on high water but that’s not the case for us. So one of you guys pick somebody talk about it I’ve been talking a lot. Morgan (28:14) ⁓ For me, I particularly like when we see those air temperatures. I feel like this is what I’ve started to pattern as those air temperatures start to climb in the spring when we get a low water morning and at least a little bit of a bump in the afternoon. That’s my favorite Tata setup. We can go out in the morning. You might still be able to catch some fish on dries, getting some egg layers or something like that, but mostly it’s nymphin. And can go nymph, catch your fish, usually catch some brown trout. And then you can, if you get that bump, you can get some of those fish looking up top and throwing dry flies. And I think that’s the ultimate setup for me. We can still, I still throw dry flies on low water. You can find them. I feel like those fish don’t congregate as well in that low water. It’s a little bit harder to pick them out. Whereas in the high water, you’re getting some congregation, some of that slower water and you can have. pots of fish. Chad (29:14) Yes, and I don’t know why, but I mean, has it just made that seem so backwards? I don’t know, you know, the lower the water, the more concentrated the fish are. But I mean, I know, obviously it’s absolutely not the case that that big water puts like 50 % of the fish in 10 % of the water. You know, I mean, it’s ridiculous the way it pods them up, but God, that just seems so backwards to Morgan (29:41) I mean, but if, if you think like, if you’ve been on this river and you think about it, you know, like, and where a lot of that food’s going to be pushing, like Matt said, it’s going to be in prime position. Like they’re going to be in position a spots. And if you know all these position a spots where these fish can hold and where that food’s going to funnel into, it starts to narrow the window quite a bit. Matt (29:43) It’s all about the food. Chad (30:05) Mm-hmm. Lots of lower ends of runs for us because that’s where the water slows down. That’s where they can get up in the current seams and feed without fighting it. You don’t find as many on upper ends of runs. That type thing. Wow. It is all about the Wild Banks. The Howitz. Matt (30:21) banks. It’s all about the wild bank. highway department, know, that has a section of road that they don’t maintain, that’s where we find risers. You know, the section of woods that’s never going to get developed under a bluff, that’s where we find risers. Chad (30:37) That is a hundred percent correct. Name me one of their concrete runs that they’re telling us works. That there’s a dry fly bite on. That’s right. I don’t know one. guys, know y’all can’t, y’all can’t see us in here, but there’s a lot of heads shaking. Morgan (30:58) It’s a really good point. mean, anywhere where we have that really good natural bank, that good riparian bank, you see so much more bug life. You see so many more fish. Chad (31:00) Right, yeah. That’s where it’s at. ⁓ It’s just better. mean, guys listen to us. If you’re moving to a river and you want your fish to be at your spot, leave it alone. Like those are the guys that have nice fish under them or the guys that are leaving those banks wild. Matt (31:31) Don’t pave paradise and put up a parking lot. Chad (31:34) Dang right, Keep your pavement on the roads. Morgan (31:38) That has been a big deal where we’re starting to lose some spots. Matt (31:43) Absolutely. year. Luckily the high water this year helped us out. know, I can’t do it, but, ⁓ talking about the dry fly fishing for Katas for me, the low water stuff is, is fun, for someone, especially that’s never done any dry fly fishing. You don’t have to necessarily have that perfect drift. can kind of get some that are skeeting and the rainbows will jump up and grab them or, know, I don’t know where a Brown will eat it, but. There’s no target practice in the low water. And that’s what we like. We like finding that head in the foam line. That’s, you know, got 15 different currents by him. That’s really hard to catch. And that’s where the high water and our Browns are just, they feel better in high water. Our Brown trout are happier in high water. And I think that’s why, you know, low water, they’re just, constantly looking over their shoulder, you know, who’s going to run them over or snatch them up out of the water. Chad (32:37) Well mean crap Matt, I remember a day too where if the water came up the caddis didn’t hatch. Too cold. Matt (32:44) too cold. Low water that would warm up the river bed get it to degrees then that the bump would hit and it was like well party’s over because the bump 48. Chad (32:48) Yeah Yeah, and it’s just, I guess it’s just so prolific now that once that temperature finally hits right, there’s just so many. Matt (33:01) which is actually nice because it stretches it out for us. Chad (33:04) it’s wonderful. I mean, it was hard to look at that customer too, that you said, yeah, come for our caddis season. Then the water would be on and you’d go, yeah, there’s no caddis. Yeah. know, I’ve seen two all year. Yeah. So no, that part’s been really nice. But, as we’re talking about bug life and we’re going to kind of slip off into summer here that, ⁓ Matt (33:15) Ciao. Morgan (33:17) I’ve seen two. Chad (33:33) You know, I remember a day when our hopper bike started in June and now we have this little orange friend called a sulfur that comes in June. And so they don’t eat hoppers in June anymore. And so we’ve really seen that good hopper bike get pushed back. Morgan (33:46) see a lot of those. Chad (33:59) because and we’ll talk about the hoppers in a minute because they definitely come after the sulfurs but now we are just getting every since minimum flow we are getting these giant prolific sulfur hatchets. Matt (34:13) This year it went, ⁓ I had some good days up until August, like 22nd. So sulfur fishing. mean, not August, July, sorry. Not like they were in June, but an hour or two of really good fishing. Yes. know, through July, July 22nd. That’s ⁓ Chad (34:31) And they just hung on and hung on and said like water and it’s the same thing guys it’s it’s typically we’re gonna have high water through our sulfurs and They’re gonna be stacked up, you know in these said places where we talked about That they’re potted up and you may pull up and see you know two and you may pull up and see twelve eating sulfurs and Obviously we’re just targeting them with dry flies. mean, you guess you could target them with, you know, wet flies or something, but they’re beating dry. So I don’t know why you wouldn’t throw drys to them. They want the the drys. They’re gang-raped, do. And so during that season, I mean, Matt (35:16) And then they want to the cripples. Chad (35:26) What does that look like for you, Matt? I know you kind of do it a little different than we do in that time of year. You kind of go into half days and a few different things. So what’s that sulfur season kind of look like? Matt (35:39) I’ve really, you know, been fortunate to, um, develop some really great relationships with some of my customers that have really fell in love with the dry fly fishing with me. so June for me, I spend just the whole month dry fly fishing really. mean, you know, and, uh, if we have low water in the morning, sometimes there’s a little hatch around 10 o’clock and you can get a couple fish to eat those. Um, but you know, a lot of days I start at noon and fish to eight or I run a six hour trip. just depends on the customer, but I’m purely. hunting heads in that time of year for me. I’m not going to do anything else. Chad (36:13) Yeah, I mean, it’s so much fun too. mean, it’s like for us, I mean, I don’t know about you, y’all, both of you guys got to spend some time in Colorado. So y’all got dry fly fishing and that type thing. But for us down here, that wasn’t a thing in the past. you know, 15 years ago, I wasn’t running around throwing dry flies, you know? And so like, it’s new for us down here and it’s so cool. ⁓ kind of refreshing to have something new, learn something new, be able to put these people on something new and I, my God guys, how hard have y’all learned that it is to get people to get a drift with a dry ⁓ fly. Matt (36:55) It’ll humble a guy pretty quick. A guy thinks he’s a real good fisherman until you’re like, no, you’re not quite as good as you thought because that fish is educating you right now. Morgan (37:06) I had one of my best buddies just crumble at the knees and he just could not Like he just got and he’s good angler like really good angler. It’s a different guy He got whooped by these fish Chad (37:12) Do it. Well, I mean, the deal is, when we’re throwing streamers, none of it matters. You’re you’re stripping it back in. You don’t have to have a drift, right? And when we’re throwing hoppers and indicators and everything else, you can mend. You can’t really mend these dry flies too much. I mean, you get a little mend in here and there, but you need to get it dripped into them without having to mend it. And that brings up all kinds of different issues. Matt (37:49) I tend to think you know if you move that fly it’s done. You know you need to reach cast in the air You need to put that fly two foot above that fish’s head and slip it in his mouth That’s the way I do it. I mean I guys will fish him with long drifts and you know that and ⁓ To me it’s like yeah if that fly wiggles You know, no sir Morgan (37:53) Good to hear. Chad (38:06) No. The longer you drift it, the least likely chance you have of putting it where it needs to be with a dead drift. Because by then all the slack is out of your leader, all the slack’s out of your line, the current’s starting to move it, and you’re shot in the foot six inches in front of his face. You need to be two foot in front of his face with a reach cast. Matt (38:31) That’s right. Morgan (38:37) There’s very few spots on this river in high water for low sulfurs that you can get more than a 3-4 foot drift. Very few. Matt (38:45) Three feet is kind of my rule for almost everything. Like if I can get three feet out of somebody when I’m fishing an edge, I feel like that’s a good goal. Chad (38:55) Yeah Morgan (38:56) I mean, that translates same until next season where we go into hoppers, but specifically for those sulfurs where it’s so visual. I’m like, have to see that fish. No worries coming up. He’s those brown trout do not move left and right. ⁓ Not really. And you have to put it right in front of them and give them two to three feet of drift or else it’s toast. Matt (39:17) I love it when a guy will throw a cast right in the middle of it and you’re like, and there’s like 20 fish are just chomping and you can hear their mouth smacking. he’s like, I can’t believe they’re not eating it. It’s like, you have to pick one out to feed. They’re not just going to swim over and eat your fly. What people don’t realize is like they’re in a lane. I mean, they’re not going to move just because you put a good drift out there. Chad (39:32) No. Yeah, there are foods in that lane. Matt (39:43) That’s right, it’s a conveyor belt. Yeah, you gotta put it on the conveyor belt. Chad (39:48) no, it’s ⁓ pretty wild too. mean, how many times? Well, I got it right over his head. That’s right. With drag. know, yeah, but you moved the fly three inches right before he got to it because you tried to man like guys, all of those things matter. Like you have that. Matt (39:50) different. Morgan (39:57) With Fly torch and move in and then especially not like yeah, it may well Went over him like friggin lightning McQueen. Yeah, it’s Catch it Chad (40:15) There’s no forgiveness. Matt (40:24) There’s 24,000 real ones going over his head too. Chad (40:28) And you are already at a disadvantage. know, you’re already the low man on the totem pole out there, let alone when you’re out there acting like a retard, jumping all the freaking sinking right before he gets there, splashing it on his head. Like, come on, man. Morgan (40:47) But I think it is a really fun time for people to come out and get a really good challenge on dry flies. Chad (40:52) Absolutely. If you want to come out and you want to learn a southerners and we don’t have what they have out West and all y’all want to come see what drop-line fishing is it’s it’s it’s happening here now. It’s world-class. phenomenal and it is world-class. Matt (41:10) to go catch 20, you know, remarkable fish in a day with a phenomenal single angler in your boat and, know, pick every one of them out. mean, show me somewhere else in the world. can go do that for six weeks. I mean, you know, and while I said to pit as a phenomenal angler, I’m not saying every that’s available to every, but if you’re a good angler, it’s available to you. Chad (41:24) You can’t. ⁓ no. Yeah. I mean, if me or you or one of us went out and fished it for an eight hour day. ⁓ absolutely. Like I kicked the boy out of my boat here a while back because I needed to go fish for a minute. And so I pushed back out and went and fished and we caught like two for the day. And I went and fished for like an hour and got 13. You know what I mean? So like guys, it matters. And it is that. Matt (41:56) think that’s right. Chad (42:03) big of a difference. Morgan (42:04) Dude, I hadn’t touched a fly rod almost all year until I got to sulfur season and it’s tough. It’s tough for me. mean, yeah, dude, I threw so many tailing loops in there. That leader came out like a Braille yardstick. You could just like, it’s hard, you know, and like I’m setting up on the front deck and I was like, okay, this is what I’m trying to get my guys to do. And I think I’m a decent angler. I’m pretty good. Yeah. it humbled me. Chad (42:17) Like. It’s challenging. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s right ⁓ Matt (42:43) you’re too fast. Too fast. You’re too fast. Morgan (42:45) Sometimes it’s easier sitting in the middle of the boat. Chad (42:47) yeah. There’s no doubt. something that’s, it’s often easier sitting in the boat. Matt (42:55) It is a time I do encourage my guys to come by themselves. ⁓ You know, I think it’s a really cool time to spend one-on-one with people and really improve their game and like really, you know, turn it up to the next level. And it’s really the only time of year I think it’s like super advantageous to come by yourself because two people really can’t do it the way I like to do it anyways. You know, I kind of let one guy fish at a time anyhow. Chad (43:21) Yep. Well, you’ve all seen it. As soon as you have two in the boat and you’re okay guys, and we’re going to have to be patient here and we’re going to have to take turns and we’re going to have to, you know, we’re going to be good Indians on this one, as Dwayne would say. And, ⁓ as soon as you pull into the hole, both of them are firing off and all the fish are down by the time you get set up and you’re just like, where’d they go? ⁓ we beat them down. ⁓ I thought, okay, all right, let’s go somewhere else. ⁓ Well, that’s how that one went, guys. That could have been a fun spot, but it is. You’re right. It’s not everybody can afford to do that. That’s understandable. Come with your partner, but if you can manage it and you can pull it off, it is a wonderful time to get one-on-one with your guide. Morgan (43:58) they look like. Matt (44:00) Could have been fun. Chad (44:20) where he can really hone in on just you and you’d be amazed at the difference at times. When it comes to the dry floppers. You make the yeah, that’s right. Because again, the guide can then focus on you and he’s not busy all day trying to maintain two people. So once all of that mayhem is over and I mean once it’s over, I mean it. Matt (44:30) Good improvements. Anger. Chad (44:48) I mean, not that you can’t drift over those fish that are still suspended and catch a couple on hoppers, but man, I don’t know about you guys, but these last couple of two or three years, my hopper bite has not started until they’re gone. Now, I mean, obviously I can move down where they hadn’t been. And if you have the water, as far as up top where all of that bug life is, I can’t get a hopper bite up there until they’re gone. Matt (45:08) if you have. Morgan (45:17) The solvers? Yeah. Yeah, I know. Matt (45:18) I’ve had to ⁓ create a beetle bite, know, kind of pre-season to hopper, you get that beetle bite. I was just about to say… I Japanese beetle. Morgan (45:26) If I downsize and not go to my summertime hoppers, I can start to get some eats on film. Matt (45:33) if your first drift is good. Like when you come over that pod, it seems like if your first drift is good, they’ll eat it. Chad (45:35) Yeah. Yep. But picking up and going back and picking up and going back. Yeah, that’s all. That’s tough. Yeah. Which you get away with a little bit with the sulfur. You can, you can cast that to them more than once. Absolutely. Absolutely. But once you introduce that beetle in sulfur season, yeah, they’re just not as interested in them. And so finally they’ll get out of there and we’ll start a hopper bite guys that like our beetle and hopper bite is bar none as well. Matt (45:46) They want those yellow bucks. Chad (46:11) Amen. Matt (46:12) It certainly can be. Chad (46:13) yeah, mean obviously we have good and bad views just like anywhere, but I mean the HopperBot is good. Matt (46:20) constant flow this year has done us a lot of favors and you know, given you a lot of opportunities. You may not have anglers that can capitalize on them every day, but the official chew them if you can put it in the right spot with that constant flow. Chad (46:32) and flow. Morgan (46:33) feel like he can get away with a little bit more on the hopper bite. There’s a little bit more grace with those fish. Matt (46:37) yeah. Chad (46:37) Go. they can do that easier than the drop line. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Morgan (46:45) I mean, not saying it’s not hard, high water, up under trees where we really want them to be 95 % of the time. It’s a lot of casting. You’re going to lose some bugs. But yeah, I’ve had a handful of fish eat out over big grass flats and stuff where it’s not super, super technical. Get a little bit longer drift, get a little more grace on those hoppers than you do on the, the sulfurs sometimes. Matt (47:12) You can mend that hop or some, can extend the drift, you know, every. Chad (47:15) Yeah, once you move in, it’s done. But I love our Fomba. I always tell people I love catching brown trout in flip-flops. Absolutely. You know, it’s one thing. It’s nice during the winter to go for those giants and that kind of thing. But it’s also just a lot of fun to be out there during the summer when it’s nice. Jump in, take a swim. Matt (47:17) out of structure, know, or pull that sulfur and she sings. Chad (47:44) jump back in the boat, go catch a couple of brown trout on hoppers. I’m Mississippi boy. I kinda like the summertime a little more than I like the heat, even though there’s maybe a little bigger fish during the winter or something. But yeah, I’m a summertime guy. Where are you at on the summer, Morgan? Morgan (48:02) ⁓ summertime throwing hoppers hands down my favorite. If we have that big water and the bites good, it’s my favorite. And, mostly because I don’t like the heat that much, but I do like warmer weather. like flip flops. like shorts, but I think when this water gets up on this river, all these banks for the most part are so target rich for hopper fishing and you’re just, you’re not fishing. You can go miles and miles and miles on this river and find good hopper banks. Chad (48:36) You don’t have to be on a sulfur bite or a hatch or that’s right. I do like that about it. Morgan (48:43) For miles. Matt (48:44) spreads us out to, which is fun. After everybody’s on that upper eight miles during the caddis and the sulfurs, really the hopper season, especially this year when we’ve had water, it’s been really nice because, know, you put in at any ramp you want, know, any, anywhere you want to fish, you can go fish. Morgan (48:45) Yeah Chad (49:02) and have room and have clean banks and yeah that has been so nice and then a lot of times we we need to mention that you know a lot of times when you guys come during hopper season you know it’s not every day we get to fish hoppers all day I mean it is summertime you get here and you get the big bluebird day I mean we’re gonna pull off some morning fish and We’re gonna pull off a couple shady bank fish, but you can obviously get to a point in the day where they don’t wanna come up and stare into that sun and eat that hopper. And I think we all do a lot of girdle bug fishing that time of year where if they don’t wanna come up to it, we’ll either do the hopper-dropper game to a girdle bug or indicator to a girdle bug and just kinda take that terrestrial down to them and that kinda. par for the course for the summer fishing for the Browns anyway. sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know this year y’all caught a lot on a dropper. I would assume you’ve probably been fishing all dries and hoppers, but if you’re throwing a girdle bug at all right now, or this season, it was amazing how much the dropper caught behind the girdle bug because Morgan (50:16) behind that Chad (50:20) I typically don’t fish a job or behind my girdle, but I don’t like to either girdle bug. I’m fishing a girdle bug, but I had rainbow fishermen and I wanted to be in the brown trout game. And so I was fishing them a girdle bug down to a rain, you know, down to like a lightening bug. And all of a sudden I studied kitchen, like all my Browns on the lightening bug under the girdle bug. And I was like, crap normally I wouldn’t have got that fish. Or would he have eaten the girdle bug? is the million dollar question. He ate that because it was there. Matt (50:56) million dollars. That takes me back to your Dave Whitlock story and you know the caddis and the midge and the brown trout eating the midge right? So if he’s got the girdle bug or the lightning bug maybe he’s eating the lightning bug because it’s there. Chad (51:16) That’s it. You know what Matt’s talking about is ⁓ one time I walked up to Dave Whitlock. We had been catching having nice catus hatches and we were putting on a catus with a little brown midge under it and they were eating the little brown midge in the middle of the catus hatch instead of the catus. And so I went to him and I was like, well, Dave, why is this happening? And you look down in my hand and you looked at him and he goes, well, Johnson, if you had two pieces of s*** in your hand and you had to eat one of them, which one would you eat? And I said, well, I guess I’d eat the little one. So I didn’t have to eat so much s***. And he goes, yeah, I think that’s what they’re I went, Dave, are you just calling my fly s***, man? And he goes, ⁓ you know me, Johnson. I like to catch my fish on pretty flies. ⁓ He did back off later and tell me they were eating it as a caddis casing, but. Not before he poked on me a little bit in true Whitlock fashion. Matt (52:21) It all depends on my angler, right? If I’ve got an angler that can get it into the rocks and into the wood and it can actually fish it, the dropper, I think, hinders me. Yes. But if I’ve got an angler that’s a little more timid, he’s not going to take those shots, you know, under the trees and get in as tight, then I’m with you. do. The moss line. Yeah, then I will put a dropper on. But if I’m hunting a brown and, you know, then I really usually will take it off. Chad (52:39) and you’re fishing out on that moss. Matt (52:50) I’m asking them to put it in places where they’re gonna be losing flies and I hate to lose them two at a time Chad (52:54) Well, not just that. How hard is it for you to get up there with an indicator and throw a two fly rig in the places that we’re asking them to throw? It’s tough. That’s tough. Quickly too. Quickly. Quickly. Morgan (53:06) I think the same way about running like a hopper and with a dropper underneath it. If I can have a guy that can put it an inch from the bank all day long, take the dropper off. Chad (53:10) Yeah. Matt (53:18) Cause then he’s not going to get it as close. Chad (53:20) bank. That’s Well, that’s the same with the dropper. That’s what I was saying. That’s just further. You’ve got to be off of the bank. Yep. And so, ⁓ yeah, I tend to fish that by itself too, which has been a great bite this year. The girdle bug bite has been good. Matt (53:36) What it boils down to is these fish are happy because we’ve had continuous flow. I agree. know, if you look back, anytime our water is stable, you know, I mean, there’s some variations, but we’re not getting 10,000 CFS or 20,000 CFS variations. Those fish are much, much happier. Chad (53:42) no no Or even when we’re going from 3 to 10, 3 to 12 and back down to 3, anytime we can get a little bit of stable flow, which doesn’t really exist here. Yeah. Or not much anyway. They don’t know steady flows. But then guys, we kind of trickle off into and we talked just a little bit about it in the fishing report. But as we kind of trickle off into the fall, which we’re doing now which even through September I know I will I know these guys will we’ll fish kind of the hopper, dropper, hopper, girdle bug, girdle bug, dropper some variation of that through September. ⁓ By the time you’re getting into October most of that’s slowing down if I’m still might still would use a hopper as an indicator through some shoals but it really it’s going to start slowing down and we’re going to begin to not have that water right we’re going to begin to have the lower water typically believe you’re fixing to see that start coming down and we’ll start going into our fall patterns which can go into ⁓ you got to remember we don’t have this big fall brown trout run and so we’ll begin to fish for our rainbows more than anything We’ll still have opportunities here and there at Brown Trout through the day, depending on what’s going on. But it’s when for me anyway, I’m going to bring, you know, beginners and family and people that want to get out during decent weather where they don’t want to freeze and they don’t want to burn up. But they also don’t want to come during spring when it’s crowded and that type thing. And they just want a nice getaway. You cannot beat the White River during the fall. on a getaway. Matt (55:51) No, the color change. mean, our hardwoods are turning oranges and reds and yellows and extra eagles have come down with the migratory birds. mean, fall is a remarkable time to be here. And you can bump into a good one too. You know, we say it’s rainbow fishing, but every now and then you’ll bump into one of the best fish you catch all year. You know, and it’s usually a beginner fisherman that gets to catch it, which is great. Chad (56:11) October. Morgan (56:16) Yeah, I love the fall. I like the weather. It’s great. I mean, fishing is still great. Catching a lot of numbers, low water. I feel like those brown trout are less targetable, but like you were saying, you still bump into them. know, those, those fish just tend to, they move all over the place. They’re moving out, moving wherever into those deeper ditches. And like I said, they’re harder to target. Chad (56:41) They’re thinking about getting on beds. ⁓ Morgan (56:43) And they’re, yeah. Matt (56:45) or they’ve gone into dry run, you know? Morgan (56:47) out of those lower. They’re just moving. ⁓ so it’s, yeah, like I said, it’s harder to target them. Not saying we don’t catch good fish, you know, good Brown trout, but yeah, it was like you were saying Chad, typically time I try and get my either my anglers that are just getting into it or families, kids, stuff like that. Get a lot of reps in. Chad (57:12) Well, another thing that happens for us during that time of year is because we get a little lower, more consistent flows, we’re way spread out, right? So the crowd is gone, you know, and we spread out so much that like, like I say, you do begin to see more wildlife. You do begin to not hear roaring motors everywhere and wakes everywhere and all the things we go through when we tend to get a little jammed up here. You kind of get away from that during the fall. And so for me, like Morgan said, that time of year, I’m typically fishing some sort of a tractor, like your lightning bugs and your thrashers and things like that, even the Carentine, but to a midge. I mean, I’m pretty much fishing midges during the fall for me anyway. That’s, And if we go over to Norfolk, I’ve got to lead that midge with an egg. Yeah, I got to lead that with an egg, which I don’t do much. I have maybe a half a dozen in my boat. I just don’t do it. Matt (58:11) I was gonna say a lot of glow bugs. Blob makes you feel better now, it’s not quite done. Chad (58:25) ⁓ No, it’s, it’s just as bad. And you know that I think I could, I think I could say this. I’ll bet I have not tied an egg pattern on, on the white river in years. I fish a egg pattern when I go to Norfolk during the fall because that’s what they’re eating. Morgan (58:28) me a pattern. Matt (58:50) very need it what they’re Chad (58:52) And other than that, I tend to catch a lot of my fish on bugs, but I know that eggs are phenomenal during the fall, and that’s typically what everybody moves to. Matt (59:04) Worms too, know the big jumbo worms work really good in the fall for me as well. Especially down below the confluence, we’re just bashing numbers. Morgan (59:11) just about fish influence with a pink worm. A water jig or a Ruby midge under it. Chad (59:11) the Matt (59:14) Hard to beat. ⁓ Chad (59:19) Yeah. And numbers and that’s really all we’re looking for. we’re kind of… It’s fun. It’s fun. Yeah. Cause there’s, there’s no pressure. Everybody’s smiling. Everybody’s catching the crap out of fish. Like I got several customers that are, that are like, yeah, we don’t want to come work for them. want to come catch them. All right. Well, if you want to come, just catch them, come during the fall. That’s what we’re doing. We’re just catching them. Matt (59:39) Easy catch ya! Chad (59:49) And so the fall, obviously, we really have as much exciting bugs and that kind of thing to talk about. So I knew fall wasn’t going to be quite as long, but there’s people kind of all through fall, winter. There’s no month of the year. You guys can’t come up and fish. We’re fishing year round. Us guys may take a little hiatus or something. I know Morgan’s working through November, December and has several guides that are, I Matt has several guides that are, have guides that are, there are guides working. don’t take, I’m just saying, reconfirming that so you don’t take by our podcast that us guys that are taking off during that time of year, that nobody’s here working. That is not the case. Matt (1:00:38) A lot of guys really hungry in January. Chad (1:00:40) There are a lot of really hungry guys in January, December and January that are happy to take anybody fishing. And we’re happy to set you up on those. But I think we’re kind of walked through our seasons. We kind of walked through most of our fishing and all. One of the things I was going to touch on with customers and we kind of did with each season, we kind of just talked about how hard it was or how. easy this was or what have you. You know, I think I kind of consider this a guide night. Like it’s just us guys hanging out in here talking and I know for us, you know, a huge, huge, huge thing is managing expectation. Matt (1:01:23) Most people get in my boat and I’ve talked the day down so bad, the end of the day they’re like, dang Matt, you had me thinking it was gonna be the worst day of trout fishing I ever had and that was the best day I’ve ever had. I probably always undersell and try to over deliver. I try to manage that expectations really hard. Chad (1:01:44) Yeah, I’ve had people ask me during streamer season like dang Chad are you trying to talk me into coming or out of coming and I’m like, no, I mean I want you to come I just want you to really know what you’re getting into Morgan (1:01:56) I think, you know, when you jump on the phone and you’re looking to book a guide trip and you’re called any of us, you call me at diamond state or Matt over at rising river guides, I would suggest start with your expectations and a fairly open calendar. And if you call Matt and you say, want X, Y, Z, he’s going to do his best to line you up in the season that you can go. That’ll work best for you. I think I find. works. I try and start my conversations like that a lot in the shop is like, what are you looking to do? You know, obviously we get a lot of people that I just want to catch a big brown trout. It’s okay. What’s your skill level? You know, where are you at? What have you done? What can you do? And we can pair you up with a guide that can meet that expectations in the right time of year. Chad (1:02:47) Start by not bringing them here during the time they can’t manage. Correct. You start the process there. Morgan (1:02:54) Like, you know, we’ve, had a guy that he was adamant about wanting to catch small mouth, but he also adamant about coming in September. ⁓ And I was like, I can’t do both of those things. I can put you on small mouth or I can fish you in September, but doing the same thing, doing both of those probably ain’t going to happen. Chad (1:03:16) Get. Matt (1:03:17) notoriously low water in September in our warm water creeks. Chad (1:03:23) It’s all about Morgan (1:03:24) I mean, it’s just, yeah. mean, most of us, you know, all of us three here, Brennan businesses know when we can generally put you in that window that was should fit for you best for what you’re looking to accomplish on your trip. Matt (1:03:26) condition. Chad (1:03:42) And then I think if we better do a good job at like putting you in the timeframe that you belong in or that you fit best in. That’s a good start on managing those expectations. And then just, I don’t know about you guys, but I get the feeling from a lot of people when they get in my boat, they’re like, they’ve come to the white river, like big Browns are going to jump in the boat, right? And it’s like, no, no, they’re not. Matt (1:04:12) Most people think there’s more Browns in the river than rainbows. You know, like, I thought we were going to catch all Browns. It’s like, well, I’m sorry. We do tend to post pictures of the Brown trout. That often puts that illusion in people’s mind that, you know, the river’s just got two footers swimming around everywhere. When the reality is, you know, Chad (1:04:23) That’s You don’t see all the other. That’s right. And so you are seeing our best of the day. Remember when you’re seeing those and we’re trying to catch a nice brown trout a day, you know, so when you see that picture, don’t think that’s what we called all day. That was our best catch of the day. The picture you seen was the best catch of our day. And so like, ⁓ it’s just nice. know. Matt (1:04:35) You might only take a picture of one. Chad (1:05:03) to just go and the expectations is this too, not just what can the river put out, but what can you do? You know, I mean, there’s a difference when a guy’s putting a hopper two inches off the bank or putting it three foot off the bank. There’s a difference. There’s a difference when he’s getting that dry fly lined up in that eight inch gap instead of trying to make him swim two foot. There’s a difference. So like. Matt (1:05:29) Takes two to tango right. Chad (1:05:30) Yeah, it takes two to tango, right? So, I mean, the customer has to do his part as well as the guy doing his part. And I think we all work our best to get you there. But at the same time, just know that like, if you get in my boat and I say, hey, what size tip it is on here? And you tell me, I don’t know whatever you tied on there last year. You may not be ready to go throw hoppers under treetops. Yeah. And so that’s what I mean a little bit when I mean that managing expectations as well as just like the reality and the truth of this sport, it easy. It’s not, it’s very technical. It’s very hard. I’ve heard it related to a golf swing, how many times. And so like. how are you gonna come do it? You’re gonna go play in a golf tournament but you hadn’t touched your clubs in a year. Well you’re coming to the Super Bowl expecting something miraculous but you hadn’t picked up your bat in a year. Morgan (1:06:40) Right. And I think that’s where coming with the expectations that you have and being honest about what you can do helps us out a lot. And just because we put you in a season that works really well for kind of what you fit into, doesn’t mean that it’s going to be perfect. I mean, you know, we might put you on in a good hopper window and the river bottoms out on us and there’s just nothing we can do about that. know, so. coming with that too is that it might not be perfect. Chad (1:07:12) Yeah, knowing that, if you’re coming to the White River at any point in time to do anything, you better be ready to change tactics just in case. The government runs it, What did you expect, man? I mean, that should be just enough said. All right, guys, we’re going to wrap this thing up. I really appreciate you guys coming in and chatting with me. These are the podcasts that I enjoy most is when it’s just Matt (1:07:24) you expect. Chad (1:07:42) kind of my buddies chatting around, chatting, not, you know. Yeah, easy. Yeah. And so I really hope you guys got something out of it. I hope you guys understand kind of a little better maybe when to come and what we’re doing here on the white. And of course, you know, Morgan’s here at Diamond State Fly Shop and Matt is with Rising River Guides. Matt (1:08:06) Appreciate you Chad. Thanks for having us on. This was a lot of fun. Thanks for hosting us. ⁓ Morgan (1:08:11) Yeah, thanks boys. Chad (1:08:13) Absolutely. Thanks, guys.