Matt Callies in on the podcast today to describe how Loon is leading the way with some of their conservation minded products.  We hear about the companies he reports to and why he does what he does.

Lots of tangents including why Air Flo split from Echo Rods and what the life of a fly fishing rep really like.  Insider chatter and a few tips from my special guest this week.


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Click here –>>>  Matt Callies Podcast Transcript for the full transcript or scroll down to the bottom to read the transcript.


Sponsors and Podcast Updates


Show Notes with the Matt Callies

06:43 – George Daniel was on the podcast here in episode 55 where we talked about the best way to get kids into fishing.

11:19 – IFTD has been postponed but is typically the biggest event for new fishing products. 

13:19 – Matt is the director of product development at Loon Outdoors.

14:05 – Loon Outdoors Fly Dip is one of the newer popular products that Matt developed and his super safe an environmentally safe.

15:22 – Jeremiah Hool or JeremiahSuperSpey on Instagram.

20:20 – Patagonia has been leading the way for quite a while on the conservation front.

24:45 – We talk about the movie 127 Hours and the guy who got his arm stuck and had to cut it off to escape.

27:30 – Abel Fly Reels is one of the companies that Matt Reps.

34:55Mariusz Wroblewski was on the podcast here and Pete Erickson was on the podcast here.  Both of these people were on the podcast from Echo. 

35:48 – The Mayfly Group purchased Air Flo Lines recently.

51:44 – Doug at AquaFlies has the Perpetrator which is a big beadhead soft hackle. 

54:20 – The Scott L2H 5 weight is a favorite for Matt.

1:03:24 – The Fly Shop in Redding and the Trinity Fly Shop with Herb are two great Trinity River resources.


You can find Matt at Loon Outdoors.


The Fly Fishing Companies Matt Callies Represents

  1. Abel Fly Reels
  2. Air Flo Fishing
  3. Air Lock Indicators
  4. Captuer Headwear
  5. Echo
  6. Firehole Hooks
  7. Loon Outdoors
  8. Ross Reels
  9. Scott Rods
  10. Trout Hunter

Resources Noted in the Show

Loon Outdoors Fly Dip

loon outdoors fly dip


Local Shop Spotlight

trinity fly shop

Herb at Trinity Fly Shop


Videos and/or podcasts Noted in the Show

The Perpetrator Fly for Steelhead


Read the Full Transcript with Matt Callies:

Click here:  Matt Callies Podcast Transcript to get the Full PDF Transcript

or continue reading below……..

(Apologies for any transcription errors – this was generated automatically by

Dave S 0:00
I’ve got Matt Callies on the show today from Lune. outdoors and inside perspective from the product designer himself. This is Episode 147 of the wet fly swing fly fishing show.

Unknown Speaker 0:12
Welcome to the wet fly swing fly fishing show where you discover tips, tricks and tools from the leading names in fly fishing. Today, we’ll help you on your fly fishing journey with classic stories covering steelhead fishing, fly tying and much more.

Dave S 0:28
Hey, how’s it going everyone thanks for stopping by the fly fishing show today. Matt Cleese, the product designer for loon outdoors and the rep for about 12 big fly fishing companies is on to share some stories of how he went from full time fly fishing dirt bagger to full time fly fishing industry leader. Before we get started, let’s hear from our sponsors. Since 1977, the fly fishing and tank journal has long been considered the anglers magazine with original how tos and technical articles written by the best trout and steelhead anglers in the West. They are committed to sharing exceptionally written essays. Poetry and in depth guides to fly tying and fly fishing. f TJ is one of my go to magazines. And if you haven’t checked it out recently, you can get started today by calling 1-800-541-9498 or heading over to the web at Ft. J Got is your trusted source of information with access to the world’s best fishing trips. You’ll never pay a dime extra for the trip you book and in many cases less than advertised. Find out where got fishing could take you by heading over to got today, that’s g ot or reach them by phone at 208-630-3373 got the easiest place to start your next phishing adventure. So without further ado, here’s Matt kalise. From loon outdoors. How’s it going, Matt?

Matt 1:50
I’m doing well on yourself.

Dave S 1:52
Good, man. It’s good. Good to chat here. I was. You’re down. I think you’re down. Where are you at? You’re in you’re in California, right?

Matt 2:00
So I am in Redding, California. Yes. Oh, kinda. Yeah. So pretty pretty far north. I would say I definitely live in Northern California.


Dave S 2:10
That’s right. Awesome. And I love I get it. We were just talking about this a little bit off air. But yeah, I have a lot of definitely listeners down in that part of, you know your area down there. So, we’re going to dig into a little bit on, you know, whatever we want to talk about, you know, maybe supply tie may have some steelhead. But before we get into that, can you just talk about how you first got into fly fishing and then how you brought that into working for loon and all the other companies?

Matt 2:36
Man? Yeah, it was kind of crazy. So I was probably like a 10 or 11 year old kid. We had like a family cabin on Puget Sound in Washington. And we my dad, because my uncle my dad would always take me fishing and stuff like that. And my uncle used to just tell me stories about Stephen cutthroats and Dolly varden. On Puget Sound and

He and my uncle I think got me like ripstop like, you know, thrift store setup, glass rod and some playtime materials and kind of just taught me to cast in some sort of manner. Probably horrible. Yeah. But yeah, so I kind of like got into it kind of a weird bringing but it’s you know, it’s like stripping streamers in Puget Sound during the summers for CNN cuts and Dolly varden because they were very much more prevalent back then. So that kind of just

something I something I just did throughout my adolescence that and then when I moved to Northern California in like early 2000s ran into a cool fly shop called Ted safe fly shop and Bob grace there and Joe kimsey kind of took me under their wing and then tricked me into tying a lot and then I think I was playing some custom patterns for them and just been kind of going ever since. So that that’s nearly 40. Now, in the next few days, I think I have a pretty good 30 year ish on that fly fishing. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, that’s kind of my general upbringing, those just like, you know, get outdoors and fish. As a kid. We used to get dropped off at golf courses with fly rods and weird poppers and uh huh. Get shaped get chased by marshals quite often.

Dave S 4:33
So do you still do a little bit of bass fishing these days?

Matt 4:38
Yeah, yeah. So we we blend it up pretty good. And I mean, we were like here in Northern California, like especially the reading area. It’s probably one of the most less fishing areas in the world. We have two amazing lakes 15 minutes away. So we have Shasta and logos called whiskey. town so most of the time we we run up on Shasta and you know we do a there’s a technique that’s been developed kind of up here on the fly rod with a bunch of Mike guy buddies like Hogan and guy Ryan Williams and do john for Shetty. We do a float and fly so we’re tying balanced bait fish patterns and fishing rock walls and ledges. And it’s pretty cool because you’ll just throw it out there and on cast your pitch like a 24 inch native rainbow and Shasta and next one you kiss like a you know, three pound spot or small mouth bass. Crazy. So yeah, so we mix it up. I mean, you know of every species of bass, bluegill. Tons of species of trout to go you know, brookies Browns rainbows jump over the hill, you have steelhead. If you want to just get like ruined. We have all the Spring Creek fisheries here where you know Fish are just gonna snap you.

And then of course the lower stack which is just like a, you know, giant trout factory. Yeah.

Yeah. So So yeah. The most good spot. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, most of it, you know, most of my adventures revolve around the kids. That’s kind of like Yep. My main priority, though. Exactly.

Dave S 6:22
It’s cool how that works, isn’t it? I think we were talking. We our kids are the same age and I, oh, I had a long, quite a while. A couple years ago, I had George Daniel on and we were talking a lot about kids getting kids into fishing. And that was his biggest tip. He said, Don’t even when you go fishing, don’t take your stuff at all. Just like, you know, be like, take for the kids. You got to make sure to focus on them. And, you know, I think that’s something I didn’t think about a while back. You know, I was kinda like, well, I’ll do a little fishing on myself that I’ll get the kids into it. But do you find that as well that you just really kind of focus on them and that that’s that’s the trip right?

Matt 6:57
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that 99% of the time. Every once in a while, we’ll have like a tough day and they’ll be like, Yeah, well, like. So I run a six and an eight year old in a dress bow. Oh, wow. And, and yeah, so they’ve been doing that actually, since they were like solo trips. Me and the kids since they were probably four and six. We’ve been doing that for a few years. And I think my six year old this year finally landed his set most not Finally, but some people will cringe at this but he has seven trout over 20 inches. Dang. So you know, he he is quickly turning into a guide. If I have there’s, there’s somebody else in the boat. He’s standing on top of the cooler. barking orders yelling command. No kidding. Yeah, like if you want to be demoralized, let a six year old tell you how horrible you’re doing. for four hours, you know, but, you know, He’s, uh, they’re both fishy kids and they have a healthy respect and understanding of like, the river. So they’ve they’ve never stepped out of line, I guess you would say, you know, like that, you know, but it’s fun. But yeah, we just go float eat lunches on islands and, yep, catch as many trout as we can. Yeah. Do

Dave S 8:25
you see them? You know, you bet doing in the fly fishing space for a while, what would you see? Would you if if you came out and they became guides or state would would you like that to see them in the industry down the line? I mean, I know that’s a long ways away.

Matt 8:40
Yeah, I mean, it would be it would be really cool. They have they, they’re pretty. I mean, they’re, they’re pretty humble about it. So they have the right mentality, you know. And yeah, I mean, the industry is always changing and they’re, they’re learning and they’re, you know, it’d be it’d be fun to see what they could do in an industry like this. There’s been a lot of there’s a lot of cool people out there that like, I know that we’re basically raised in this industry and, you know, they they live super happy, fulfilled lives. Yeah. You know better. It’s, you know, traditionally better than a nine to five in front of a computer. I’d say if you get to be outdoors and experience things, though. Exactly. And if you can make a decent living at it, then you’re ahead of the game, right?

Dave S 9:29
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, there’s there’s a few different ways. I mean, I’ve now with approaching 150 episodes, I’ve interviewed pretty much every type of right person that’s trying to make a business in fly fishing. And, you know, it’s been interesting to hear because I’ve heard all the different stories and what do you think is what do you think is the the best thing about what you do and maybe you could talk a little about what you’re doing now and who you’re working with, and then and then dig into a little bit of, you know, what’s kind of the best of the best and the worst of what you do

Matt 10:01
So, I mean, I do I do kind of a lot that I think I think everybody, I think first and foremost people, a lot of times we’ll miss judge how big fly fishing really is.

Dave S 10:16
How big is it? Because I think we’ve talked a lot about that talking always about how small of a niche it is. But what do you mean by how big it is?

Matt 10:23
Well, I think I think I just, I mean, I think I think you just make money like hand over fist or something. And it’s like, you know, they’re like, Man, you’re making all this money and you’re like, Where’s that at? You know?

I’m not here because I want to become super wealthy. I would have picked a different career, you know, but

Unknown Speaker 10:49
I don’t know. I think sometimes people over inflate like the size of what we do and stuff like that. And I always equate it back to like the I got the chance to meet this gentleman I was at I ftdi cast when it was still joined the unit you know down in Florida and you know before the show, the show opens you can get in there like an hour early because you’re a vendor, distributor and stuff and I got to meet this guy and gentleman walks up to me very polite, well spoken, well mannered guy goes Hi, how you doing? Like I was looking at conventional gear because I always take what those guys do and try to apply it into fly fishing. Because you know, there’s like this. That’s just my thought process on it. That turnaround in my kid my my boy washes bass fishing, like all the time, so I recognize this guy. I’m like, Dude, this is like, this dude’s like number two on like the Bass Pro circuit right now, you know? And I ended up having like a 45 minute to an hour long conversation with him about kids and stuff like that. The most humble human ever. And then I met some, like young kid that was like, super. I mean, he was like, I don’t want to, like be harsh on him, but he was young. And he was super stoked to be at this big event. And he like, he All he did was talk about how big he was. Like, and I was like, I was like, Okay, well, we’re in fly fishing. So it’s like, you know, it’s, it’s a cool, it’s the raddest thing ever. Like, you know, it’s a cool industry and like, but we’re not that cool. Like, we’re not secure or something, you know, we’re never gonna be like, some international superstar type person, you know, type thing. So I was like, you gotta chill it out a bit. Like, I just talked to this dude, that probably makes more money telling somebody that he flosses his fish with like Bubba’s weight company than I’ll ever make in a year. But yeah, you know, it’s a cool industry and then as far as what I do in here, So I design I’m a director of product development and National Sales Manager for loon outdoors. And so I take basically all the tools and ideas and products that Lynn makes most of them originate in my head while driving as a rep somewhere in the southwest of the United States. And so yeah, it’s kind of an interesting job. So I do, I don’t have a formal degree in chemical engineering or 3d CAD or anything like that, but through tinkering, reading and understanding documents that would probably bore most humans to death like I’ve, I understand, like what I’m doing, right, yeah. So designing new floating, it’s like we just came out with a new float and called fly dip, which is not only fish safe, but it’s like human skin safe. It’s not going to it’s toxic. acidity levels to humans. I mean, you’d have to like, you know, it’s it’s actually really funny because all the toxicity reports are like, how much do you have to put in a bucket of water to kill a rainbow trout because they consider it a sensitive species. So it’s interesting to see that but I mean, you would have to, I don’t know if we can sell you that volume of this product kind of effect. So you know, it’s cool, like designing chemical stuff, doing 3d CAD, fit, finish, everything kind of just comes out of my brain and like my home office slash shop,

Dave S 14:39
what’s a new product that’s just that’s come out, you know, recently that that somebody might not know about, or maybe they know about?

Unknown Speaker 14:48
Well, it’s like the newest one is probably flight up. And it’s a dip float and it’s CDC safe. It’s like, when we were in testing, we had one of our ambassadors Fill it down as waiters and into his drip boat. And this guy guides on the dish shoots.

Dave S 15:06
Who was it?

Unknown Speaker 15:08
Jeremiah? Who?

Dave S 15:10
Oh, sure, man. Okay.

Matt 15:12
Yeah, aka Jeremiah superspy on Instagram. He’s now actually, I kicked him off the ambassador team. He was nothing but trouble but I hired him as my Pacific Northwest Rep. Like, you don’t get to be an ambassador and get a, you know, all this other. Like, yes, we’re gonna we’re gonna move you here, brother. But yeah, he was telling me that he spelt this down as waiters and you’d step into the shoes and there was like an air bubble trapped around this area. So it’s like triple hydrophobic compound. That’s, you know, completely inert CDC safe. Like I said, you know, works for like your Dorsey style indicators doesn’t destroy foam. And the hardest part is that it has to be environmentally friendly. Yeah, so And, you know, that becomes like a pretty weird term for people because,

Dave S 16:06
and why does it have to be? Why does it have to be? I mean, obviously environment environmentally friendly is good, but you think of things like lead and stuff like that, right, which is kind of still out there. So why does your stuff do you is that the part of the company part of the you know, the way you guys do things?

Matt 16:23
So yeah, it’s one like loon, you know, our initial like, mantra or mission statement, whatever, it’s especially with a conscious and, you know, so everything like we don’t make any products with like, you know, you brought up lead, which is a great point and topic and, you know, so we make a 10 split shot option, and we do tungsten putties. And

Dave S 16:48
do you guys do do you guys do lead?

Matt 16:52
No, not at all. That’s That’s it. You don’t do that. That’s awesome. No, and and basically everything that we Make? has, you know it? Nothing, nothing in the world will ever be environmentally perfect. If you can take that, like, you know, for what it’s worth, no, because if it was environmentally perfect, it would be nothing.

Dave S 17:15
Yeah, there’s always gonna be you know, like, there’s always gonna be some impact no matter what you do.

Matt 17:19
Right. Right, right, exactly. But like by taking stuff and trying to shift it to the most minimal impact possible. You know, as our sport grows, and more people are on the water and more people are on sensitive watersheds. You know, if you go out there and you lose 30 nymph rigs in a day or something, have a really bad day. Yep. And you’re using big chunks of lead shot like that all rolls downhill. Yep. And you know, when you really think about it, say if you’re fishing in a mountain stream like they appear on Mount Shasta fishing the upper stack that then goes down into Lake Shasta Lake Shasta drains into the lower stack everybody along there. All the way to San Francisco is utilizing that as their drinking water source. Yeah. And, you know, you compound that stuff over like, say 50 years of fishing. It’s, it’s, you know, it’s it’s it there’s an impact there. And you know for like a guy who’s like donating to like t u and restoration products to like, look at you and go 1010 split shot doesn’t work well, right? How many I need to use lead? And it’s like, no, so wait, you’re just trashing what you’re like, I don’t. So yeah, everything that we do with Luna, is this going to be as environmentally sound as possible trying to decrease the carbon footprint like,

Dave S 18:42
who else is doing? Who else is doing that? Matt, you know, are when you look at the other companies that have the terminal tackle and all that stuff out there. I guess in the you know, the fight or there are a lot of companies that are doing that where it’s like you can’t even get lead from them. Or would you say you guys are the unique situation.

Matt 18:59
I would say that we’re I mean, I would say that we are the unique situation. There. There’s nobody. I mean, I think there’s like a few guys that do like a tungsten offering. Yeah, I’ve tested all the tungsten split shot and unfortunately, not to sound super nerdy, but like the smelting process, which is basically the melting process of how you manipulate metals into shapes. Like tungsten, I think, I forget the exact number, but it’s like, it’s too brittle, and it likes melts at like 4800 degrees or 6400 degrees. So you it’s not a malleable metal that you can click on and click off like, say lead, which is ideal because of its weight and softness. So yeah, I mean, we’re, we’re pretty unique.

Dave S 19:49
You know what the cool thing about that is, Matt and I, we’ve talked a little bit about Patagonia. I think sometimes maybe people get tired of hearing about it. But, you know, it’s a good example. You know, I mean, the way they’ve done it because you know, shannara You know back in the day he was kind of doing the same thing man I mean they were the only ones with organic cotton you know t shirts and and he pretty much just said like Dude, this is what we’re gonna do and I don’t care you know what it takes? And you know it sounds like guys I mean does it come down from your your founder where’s this stuff come down from on lunes kind of the thinking here where you guys just go on doing this stuff

Matt 20:22
so the original owner was like a super smart guy and I think it it kind of all came from him from the early 90s when we started and and I was just when the new owner like kind of bought it at this like juncture and that’s just been our program ever since I think this is about to enter my eight year atlin so you know everything as as you see like, I mean say like UV fly tying resin and stuff like that. Like, you sell these new companies come out, and and you’re like, cool. Wow. Okay, somebody else is doing UV Resin. And then I mean, I’ll be completely honest if you look at my, my, like workstation. I have everybody’s resins and they stink. Really, you know, like Jimmy literally. Yeah. Like, yes. Like the actual off gassing smells. And I’m not saying that ours has zero odor, but it’s it’s much more the impact of you know, it goes it goes right back to that again. Yeah. And but yeah, you know, taking like what, you know, the stuff like Patagonia does, like, we have a lot of really good friends over at Patagonia. And I would say, I mean, I can’t ever say that. Oh, yeah, we’re like Patagonia, you know, because their capabilities and everything. That’s amazing. Anything that you can do on it on another level then probably what we could ever do.

Dave S 22:06
But it all started if you think about it, right? It started with that one guy who somehow he embedded his whole thinking right into the company. Is that kind of with with you guys it sounds like I mean, because you’re, you’re embedded on this thought. I mean, where does your conservation ethic does it come from loon? Or do you just have that even without loon?

Matt 22:26
No, it’s, I mean, it’s totally it’s totally been pre Lune. For me, at least, you know, doing stream cleanups, and I mean, just just whatever. And it’s an it’s funny like to have, I mean, just even like, if you see something out out in the wild, it’s like, dude, I have this huge pack. There’s like two boxes in there and you pick up a bunch of junk because people have left it behind. Yeah. You know, and like, it’s cool to see like, like with my kids, like, they’ll see something in a river or on a lake and they’ll be like, that doesn’t belong there. Nick, pick it up. And You know, which, which is always scary as a dad, cuz you’re like, you’re like, wait, what are you picking up?

Dave S 23:06
Exactly? And I saw that recently I was up on the stream in amazing places pretty remote. But I think it was kind of some squatter. I don’t know they were camping out there, man and they just left. I mean, they dug a toilet pit, like literally within 10 feet of the river. You know, they left a buck with with poop in it. I mean, it was just absolute just terrible. You know what I mean? Like, that’s the stuff that’s that stuff to see is now. I mean, there’s so there’s so much of that stuff out there.

Matt 23:33
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, there’s an end you know, with more people getting into outdoor sports and you know, and it’s not just fly fishing this you can insert any outdoor activity. It’s like, you know, I grew up most of my time hiking, like as a kid like backpacking through the Sierras and like, lying, lying to my parents that were like, over at, you know, we’re going to Joe’s house for two nights for a big sleeper and they’re like Jedi Getting off at 16 to do like a 40 mile loop and this year is to try to like peek bag something that you need to permit for but we’re gonna cheat the system and do it at night. Oh

Dave S 24:10
yeah, nobody do where you’re at. That’s awesome.

Matt 24:12
No, yeah, there was no cell phones. It was like, you know pagers and like our parents, all our parents thought we were at like our friends houses and, you know, we’re on top of like some 12,000 foot peak. Whereas, like, seven or seven hours away,

Dave S 24:25
what was that movie? Remember that movie? That guy that got his hand trapped in the rock for and had to cut his arm off?

Matt 24:31
Yes, yeah, like that kind of. Yeah, unintelligent maneuver, like but, you know, like, well, he was, I think that’s Aron Ralston. And, but he was, I mean, yeah, we were just doing it as like, dumb by being dumb kid. Like, let’s go see how many peaks we can run out this week or whatever it was. And But yeah, I mean, like the whole conservation. I mean, it’s, it’s the it’s like one of the things like with Lynn, that makes me the most Most stoked. And, but it’s also the hardest part of my job. You know, because most of the time it’s you want to create a product that Yeah, the easiest equally as good, is Yeah, that’s right. Exactly. It’s like, man, like, like the flight deck product. The easy way would have been to use like a hydrocarbon, and hydrocarbons or things like gasoline, or, you know, petroleum based stuff. And, I mean, I could have walked to like, the local auto parts store picked up three products and made that thing work in three days. And instead, it took a month to find the right inner chemical to evaporate the way we needed it to. And also not, you know, do bad for the people or fish or the environment. That’s cool. So it’s cool. Yeah, yeah, it’s just kind of it’s, it’s challenging enough where it you know, keeps your mind thinking and you’re looking at stuff and Yep, The industry if you pull this stuff out of or you’re like, I had no idea these people use this stuff. You can end up Yeah, you can end up on some pretty weird. You know? What? Yeah. And, you know, learning about how to, you know, it’s like, how do you make this? How do you make? Oh, wow, this is, you know, it’s just super not to divulge any trade secrets that I’m found. But

Dave S 26:25
yeah, no, this is awesome. I love this max. It’s like, it’s just a cool conversation. Because I think again, back to the Patagonia or whoever I mean, you guys, you know, probably you’re doing stuff. You know, obviously, you’re leading things a little bit here, but people that are listening to this now, might not know about that, right? And they’re gonna be like, oh, okay, that makes sense. Why wouldn’t I buy a loon product that has less impact? You know, I mean, so, you know, from a business perspective, obviously Patagonia shows that being conservation you know, being hardcore on that may you know, works, right. You got your Pete right. So, hey, I want to I want to dig in, on there’s a bunch of stuff here, obviously. With Lou and everything, but I did want to just circle back around to your background because you have a few other companies. Can you talk about other than loon who else you’re working with?

Matt 27:10
Oh, man. Yeah. So I, I’ll just, I’ll list them alphabetically because that’s just kind of how my brain works. So I work with abl, flywheels, which is

it’s really they’re really cool brand. You know, they

Dave S 27:28
know I mean, there’s a bunch of cool fly rails out there and you don’t have to own the fanciest one. I won’t ever tell anybody that. Abel is the one that when you think Abel, you just think like, they’ve always got this badass, crazy design. I mean, that’s the first thing comes to my mind. And they’ve been like, I remember 20 years ago when it was like, Man, what is that real? It’s like, okay, Abel, they’re there. They’re different.

Matt 27:48
Right, right. So I knew Abel and you would laugh because I am such like a stealth operating type guy like I’m not bright and flashy. So like all the tables that I Fish are non fish graphics. They’re matte finished. And it’s like I went with like matte charcoal gray and matte green.

Dave S 28:05
Are you serious? You don’t have so if you right now if you had to choose if you went to a table and you were going to throw a graphic on there, what would it be?

Matt 28:14
Right now it’s man. Actually I really for whatever reason dig there, Yama May, which is like a Japanese trout. Little little Japanese trout. Like I just dig that graphic for whatever reason. And it’s not a fish that I’ve ever caught. But someday I’d love to go to Japan catch that fish just because i think that i think the Japanese fly fishing cultures like super rad and Japanese culture in general. So so like, that’s like a weird one. It’s like I want to get like a steelhead or anything like that. I get this. This crazy Japanese trout class. I do. abl I work with airflow which you know makes oddly enough They just kind of fit into the story. They don’t use PVC in their flatlines. So they use polyurethane and PVC is outlawed by like every EU country basically. You know, like, it’s it’s dead technology right there, they don’t allow that, you know, it’s like it’s super harmful to you it’s a carcinogen, it’s all this jazz.

Dave S 29:24
Are there a lot of lying companies still using the PVC?

Matt 29:29
Um, you know, I don’t I mean everybody’s changing their tack right now and you know, I don’t know what everybody’s actually doing but I know there are a lot of PVC bass lines on you know, everybody keeps that close to their site. But, you know, airflow has been polyurethane since like, day one. They’ve had low stretch cores, which I think is cool since there for a long time. And they’re just cool people that have like, The whole culture there has been super fun to work with and like, like working on lines and testing lines and it’s a fun it’s a fun thing like, hey, well this thing does this and that and you know, blindness for every different application. Yeah. So we do i do airlock which is you know, we had the, the screw bottom indicator system. And this year they got rid of the, the plastic ball and they went to an EPA style foam like this like soft foam, and they put a chemical in there now actually. So after 18 months, if you had broke your leg off and it goes floating down the stream 18 months after being exposed to the bacterias and say like a river or soil system, the whole product actually will biodegrade. Wow. Yeah, so that’s kind of cool. I do a really cool headwear company called capture we do you know, custom headwear for people shops flight Fishing companies all that I picked up a really fun artist named Casey Underwood. I always loved his art and everything. So we do like stickers and hats. I worked with Timmy. Tim Ray, Jeff up there at echo. So I do the echo product. Do fire hose sticks, Joe and deburr you know, husband and wife team, they obviously have some more minions now, because they’re growing. So we do hook speeds and cool bodyweight systems, a lot of tungsten and brass. Fully mill flies, which is a European company. A lot of people don’t really recognize them. But they’re here in the States, but it’s I think it’s probably the oldest fly tying company in the in the world. Yeah, like I think in the like, I mean, it dates back to like the 30s or 40s or something like they opened their first commercial factories. So they do a lot of really progressive tungsten flies. Pretty tech. nickel stuff. They call it an infant in Europe, not euro nothing but so they’ve been on the jig and like tungsten bead oversize programs for a long, super long time. So they’ve been on my radar probably since I was ordering things like out of Czechoslovakia and languages I didn’t know to tie certain styles of flies. So obviously I work with Lynn Ross, I do Ross reels on which is really cool. Because a little known fact is so most of my most of my companies kind of, you know, if you look at it, they either started or they’re their founders were kind of from California, as well. So April started in California, anything with Tim Ray, Jeff Tim’s of San Francisco Golden Gate casting club, Golden Boy, you know, like, that’s where he ended. That’s where he and Steve cut their teeth with the kriegers and stuff like that. Then Ross was actually founded in a small town. called Aetna. Oh, yeah, and if you dress and there’s nothing in that not really, I mean it’s not a really big town. And so I have on my shelf up here I have a ton of Aetna made Ross reels and I collect them like Pokemon you know I have everyone I see I don’t care the condition I just, I just want it it’s a piece of history.

Dave S 33:23
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Matt 36:40
So, so Timmy, Tim, Tim and Ray Jeff sports. They were

airflow was owned by a European company.

Yeah, and Tim was the the United North American distributor. Okay. And I think the You know, the figureheads of the European side of the business decided to pay we’re going to sell. And so they they wanted to sell. And, oddly enough, the same company that owns now Ross and Abel ended up purchasing it. Oh wow. So, the mayfly group, which owns Ross and Abel, and a few other things that they just don’t do anything with right now

are by the new owners of airflow.

There you go distribute the distribution of the lines.

You know, instead of being out of Vancouver, Washington will be out of Colorado is, is my total as far as I’ve gotten into the understanding of it, you know, it’s, um, I try to, I mean, I just don’t,

Dave S 37:55
yeah, you don’t get into the maisha on that stuff.

Matt 37:58
Exactly. Exactly. Like, from the outside

Dave S 38:01
from the outside. And obviously, I’m not an insider on this, but, but what it looks like is like, or and you hear from people that, you know, Ray, Jeff, and what he did was was huge, obviously for airflow in the US, right? He promoted the crap out of that stuff. And then you’re like, oh, there’s this split. So it kind of looks like that thing like, Oh, man. Well, you know, it’s kind of a rough thing on but I’m sure, you know, this happens right in the industry. It’s just business part of it, right.

Matt 38:31
Yeah, and that’s like, and you know, like, Tim, Tim was always like, super influential. I mean, you can’t you can’t speak highly enough about Tim’s brain and capabilities of like line design rod taper design and stuff like that when he can. You can like look at him and be like, I don’t even understand where we’ve gone with this and, you know, talking about lines and papers and stuff like that, and he’s he’s so Brilliant at that stuff. And I mean, he was incredibly a huge player in the development of that.

Unknown Speaker 39:06
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt 39:08
And yeah, I try to stay I try to stay away from

Dave S 39:10
all of that you’re doing you’re you’re outside with all these companies now Are you done with Ross or do you have more to add to that alphabet to that

Matt 39:18
to that to your line here? Oh, no, that there’s more so I’m also the Southwest rep for Scott fly rods, which was as most people know, it was a San Francisco based company. And so that’s like my, my super premium rod brand. You know, we’re still and it’s odd to because so now I have when I end up in Montrose, Colorado, and tonight, I have Ross Abell airflow, and Scott all right there because they’re all they all moved to Montrose. It’s kind of funny that like, both of these Northern California companies like you, Ross and Scott both bailed out of California, and ended up in Montrose, which is A lot like reading, you know, it’s not a huge town. Yeah. And lots of agriculture, like in the foothills of just amazing fishing. And then I last, the last one I do is trout hunter leader and tippet and time materials. Okay. So you got

Dave S 40:18
a list there. So how do you know? You know, I mean, how many could you add to this list? Is there? Could you just have 50 companies? I mean, what’s the Is there a limitation on on what you do with them? And, you know, will you be adding more companies as you go?

Matt 40:34
I don’t really, at this point, I don’t really plan on adding. It’s just not something. I mean, I’m happy where I’m at my workload is, I think if I start adding, I have to hire employees, and, you know, like a sub rep, or, like another rep to work under me. Do people do that?

Unknown Speaker 40:56
Absolutely. Oh, wow. So people have sub reps.

Matt 41:00
Yes, yeah. So

like most, a lot of the reps that you’ll meet in this industry didn’t just like show up one day and say, Hey, dude, I’m gonna be a fly fishing right now. And, you know, like, they get hired either, like so I would say that I’m a really weird anomaly. So a lot of them go they get hired by a rep who has this huge list of brands and pay you’re gonna cover this whole zone and you’re gonna see these shops but I’m still gonna go to that zone and see all my buddies. Oh, you know, like there’s like a weird split to it like I’ve never looked into it never got never really thought a ton about it.

Dave S 41:46
That you could do that right now, for example, like I’m, I’m up in Oregon, and you probably had Well, you know, for example, there might be something up here where I could be a sub rep right for you and you can still come up and fish for steelhead on the Deschutes and all that Stuff that something like that. Exactly.

Matt 42:02
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So and I mean, there’s reps that have multiple sub reps. And you know, but for me, it’s always like my workloads, pretty significant. And, you know, a lot of guys think of like, the rap is like one of the most romantic jobs in the world. And it’s, I mean, there’s a lot of office and computer work involved.

Dave S 42:27
Let’s get back to that too on that because a while back I mentioned the best and worst so if on the on the rep thing what what is the so is that the worst part of it is the office stuff and then what what would be the best the best thing about being a rep?

Matt 42:40
No, you know, I don’t I, I’m, honestly for me, it’s like the hardest part or I don’t know if it’s the worst or the hardest part because it’s part of the job that I knew going into it right. So I’d say instead of the worst, I’d say the hardest portion of it is and you can relate this, you know, being a dad, I’m sure is being 28 hours away from home. And like, you get the phone call that your kid has pneumonia and he’s going to the ER. All right. Like, that’s the worst feeling you can have. Yep. And, you know, in my personal scenario, my wife runs in ER, he’s like the Chihuahua seven er. Yeah. So like, I know that she’s not like, standard Mom, you know, like, she is. Like, I could, like have my leg hanging off and she’s like, I don’t know if we’re gonna, yeah, you’re fine, right? You know, you break a finger, she’s like, put tape on it. That’s all we do there. No, Big Boy, you know, but just that feeling of like, not being able to be there and like, help in a critical situation or a stressful situation. And obviously, like the computer work stuff, like some people may hate that but like, it’s part of the job and I just, I don’t dislike it. I love going through the day and seeing shops succeed with stuff that I’m passionate about and seeing them become passionate about it and the computer works just kind of part of that reflection. I would say like, yeah, you know, cuz you got to you got to do it. The best parts I mean, man, you’re you drive a lot. Some people hate driving. I love driving. Yeah, you know, so I’m on the road 30 to 40,000 miles a year.

Dave S 44:26
What do you drive? What are you driving

Matt 44:29
on so I just drive I just drive the smallest I choose vehicles based off if I can fit everything in them. Yep. So

I have a tow vehicle like that I had bought like many years ago, it’s it’s nothing fancy. I mean, it’s a you know, it’s like a 2011 one up from the base model player, the tundra that’s like my tow vehicle for like drift boats and bass boats and runabouts, all that jazz but most of the time 99% of the time, I drive Subaru Forester base model Yep. And you know, I’m two years into that vehicle right now and I’m at 80,000 miles. There you go. So,

Dave S 45:10
gonna be up here pretty soon.

Matt 45:13
It’s me five to six year yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s, it becomes it definitely like the sacrificial lamb of my job. Things I’m excited about is like, you know, either a hybrid technology or Yeah. You know, like, the self driving car thing like in my head, I’m like, that scares the crap out of me. But how blissful would that be to be able to have like this integrated iPad thing on your dash and you can just do business why this car drives you? It’s there, man. I mean, you hear about those people like with the Tesla they’re falling asleep in their Tesla’s right and they’re they’re still just driving down the highway. Yes, yes. You know, like, and I and I thought about like, I mean, the base model of Tesla, like unfortunately, you just don’t get the mileage that you would Need Oh, is

Dave S 46:00
that what is the base? So yeah, you can get into Tesla now under under 50 K, right. Like you they got reasonable models now.

Matt 46:08
Yeah, I mean, that’s go over double the cost of a base model super.

You know, it’s like if you’re considering it as a business expense and stuff like that. But you know, the time to charge and then like your time on tasks, some days, you’re, you’re running Ganon and you’re doing two to three appointments, and some of them might be, yeah, you know, you might do an appointment in the morning and then you drive 200 miles, do another appointment in the afternoon that carries over into a dinner. Yeah, and you’re like, by the end of that, like, unfortunately right now with the battery and charging technology and distances capable, doable. Yeah, I mean, when I mean, just like from a business standpoint, you look at like time on task, you know, pot downtime and all that stuff. It’s just like, and let’s face it, like when you’re in some of these towns, there is not an electric vehicle charging station. So, no, because trout trout tend to be in like these cooler more small remote locations. And but I mean, I think it’ll get there. Yeah, you know, I’m super I’m super hopeful that like, you know, I’ll have like a truck or a van that’s just goes down the road silently wise. Yep. Do my computer.

Dave S 47:21
That’s it. That’s that’s gonna be there. Hey, Matt, hey, before I’d be people would get a grip if we did dig into some on a little bit on the fishing stuff and I’ve been thinking about this. I’ve had a couple that we’ve talked about the Sacramento it sounds like that’s kind of your home River. Is that what you consider my backyard? Yeah, it’s in your backyard. So the SEC and then so let’s dig in just for a little sec here on on steelhead, because we’ve talked a ton about steelhead. I’ve had, you know, lots of episodes on steelhead, but we haven’t talked about the sack. Can you bring us to the sack for steelhead and just break that down for somebody who’s kind of new to it and maybe help them get their first deal head down there.

Matt 47:58
Yeah, so I mean There’s nobody like there’s not really a set of guides that really target steelhead specifically on the lower stack.

Dave S 48:08
Why is that? It To me it seems like there’s a on our river You know, there’s hunt by hundreds, right hundreds and hundreds of people but why wouldn’t there be a few guides out there?

Matt 48:19
It’s hard to differentiate the valley steelhead and versus our normal trout. Yeah.

Dave S 48:26
Really so yeah. So when you mean differentiate being when you look at the two, you have a hard time seeing which one’s a steelhead and which ones not?

Matt 48:34
Well, it’s fairly easy to say if you anything with a clip then I can add a post spin removal. Yep.

Is 100% a hatchery steelhead,

and there’s a lot of times like I’ve landed rainbows in the 27 to 28 inch category in the town of Redding. And yeah, that’s steelhead. Now per fishing game, I think it’s like anything over 16 or 18 inches trout or because we can’t differentiate right now is technically a steelhead. Yeah. So you know, but they’re the it’s interesting. And I don’t want to talk trash on thrown waters and stuff like that, but like, a lot of the program is indicator fishing. And there’s a few guys that know where to go and squeak out slung fish. But it’s not promoted. Oh, it’s not? No, and it’s funny, like, you could just be in the middle of trout water. And all of a sudden you’re fishing You know, you’re fishing like a PMD fish that comes up and tail walks like seven times. And you and you look at it and you’re like, dude, did you go to the like, Did you go to the ocean and come back like but there’s, there’s just not like, there’s not like a time of the year where it’s like Oh, these fish are here right now for that I’ve ever personally seen.

Dave S 50:04
So it’s not so it’s not like you go out there and you think you know September you’re just gonna be like okay the steelhead are here let’s err on the side on our wet flies and swing for the steelhead to September October. So that’s not the case there.

Matt 50:17
There’s places you can do that. And you can go and target that’s like there are known runs, but it’s not what’s popular.

Dave S 50:25
indicator indicator is nothing as popular.

Matt 50:28
Now if you if you came to the back in September, October, like the amount of egg flies and rubber legs and stuff that you would see people fishing behind salmon, reds, right because all all of our trout and probably a good portion of our steelhead are going to go sit behind the salmon reds because it’s like a giant Pez dispenser of you know, yeah, 10 mil, hordes of magic coming out of this room and so Yeah, it’s kind of a different program. Now if we bump over the hill, like towards the eternity for 45 minutes starting in like that early September time. Yeah, you’re fishing a 100% for an address, like, that’s your target, you know, I’m going I’m going to go fish for anonymous trout or steelhead, you know? Yeah. And, and the possibility of see Ron Brown. Oh, wow. Because there’s a huge there’s a huge debate on whether or not the Trinity brown trout population is an address or not. Is the Trinity

Dave S 51:29
is the Trinity. Maybe take us there. Let’s talk just briefly about that a little bit. Then what, what is that, you know, take us to the Trinity. What what’s the what’s that experience like for steelhead for swing in there?

Matt 51:40
So the Trinity swinging for steelhead is super awesome. You know, and it’s it’s one of those things that’s like a huge split. It’s, it obviously comes basically from you know, it starts in the middle of California and then you know, flows down into the Klamath and and ultimately out to the Pacific Ocean. So it’s a tremendously long river. With every type of water that you would want, you know, there’s there’s really technical like nipping water up higher and a lot of the guides you know, more proximal to reading and like you know, the I five corridor so you know, that gets kind of hit more and more as far as like you know ninja fishing and stuff like that but as you get like lower and more remote like towards the coast and like the confluence with the climates, the the runs really open up like you get those kind of really traditional gravel bars and I mean, there’s nothing like that place. I mean, I’m sure there’s a and that might just be like my own heart, like talking because it’s like my home water. Yeah. And like, you know, a guy who travels to like every single extremes, like do this just like this business, but it’s a really cool area. And the fact that it’s so close to home for me, it’s, you know, it can offer anything You bet you want as far as steel head coaching

Dave S 53:02
on the trendy you mentioned earlier about the soft tackle or kind of soft tackle Pfizer what is that what you’re using there? What do you use? And what if you had to pick a couple flies on the Trinity? What would they be?

Matt 53:14
So one of my flies that my favorite and it’s an older pattern that I had commercially tied and I think I ended up giving it to Doug Bruna Kovar, aka flyboy. He’s doing it now.

And, like, Doug, and I was like, he’s like, Hey, man, I need this slide. I was like, cool. Like, what? What do you want and I was like, just try to fly. And like, it’s like, you don’t want to know so I was like, dude, I don’t care. You know, I’d rather have people just be stoked out. So that’s a fly called the perpetrator. Okay. And basically, it’s just a big beat head soft tackle. And by big I mean it’s the whole floor is basically an inch long. has a little it. I think it started off with like a c 14 s Dominic got to hook up. No drug user now, but it’s stout and I fished it and it’s just as big beat head soft tackle thing. And it’s weird because you can go on high stick it through a run like on a spay rod like it’s it’s like kind of pockety water and then you know take like 10 steps down and then go swing it through the run and it’s just as equally as effective. Nice. You know, so stuff like that. I tried just a ton of really weird soft tackle variations. And you know, we were kind of talking earlier about like intruders Yeah. And do I efficient shooters and stuff like that and not really and if I do they’re, they’re really really small ones. Just because I forget now it wasn’t this year is the year before. I think I landed like a 10 to 13 pounds steel head on the Trinity, which is a big, which is a big Chinese fish. Yeah.

And, you know, it’s something like an inch long.

It’s in the middle of winter like January smelling storm cycle is happening.

Dave S 55:07
They’re kind of trouty down there too.

Matt 55:08
Yeah those fish those fish just get super rowdy so fast to me and you know there are different fish they’re not as acrobatic as like in my opinion is like the coastal fish okay you know like when you get like true coastal fish less than a mile from saw that you’re swinging that intruder atrani kind of this really you’re just trying to be pissing off you know, versus the Trinity it’s like I mean I think guys go over there with like seven weights and like that and and most of the time like if I’m not growing, like maybe I’m throwing a certain weight single hand rod like a little one hand spray rod with like a you know, like a rage head on it. Or maybe a five wait two hander like I love the Scott Ellis qH over there it’s a little sideways and I’ll even get as light as like for weights during the like October cats come off really well over there and you can go over there with like a little for late spay and like yeah, you’re gonna have like a 26 inch steelhead, you know like double fish the same rod you know some guys are like oh you need more rod and I was like no I mean the waters what you know like if the waters low and smaller more intimate water it’s it’s you know you’re not just stomping in there with this big heavy system right? A little bit. A little bit more delicate, I guess would be the the terminology toy

Dave S 56:35
toy. Well, let’s let’s take us out here. I usually do the 222 which is top two tips, talk to flies, talk to resources and let’s stick on the Trinity here. You mentioned one the perpetrator would you have another fly you throw another name fly we might build a Google up or find out there.

Matt 56:52
Yeah, I mean, so might sound really weird, but like I love just bunny leeches over there. Really small ones. Nothing beats the movement of rabbit and steelhead seem to love rabbit fur. Yeah. So anything that’s kind of bunny Lucci? Like, honestly, to this day, I’ll probably have 20 egg sucking leeches in every colorway from sculpting the browns, you know, to purpley blacks stuff in my box that time. And realistically, I just have a ton of if you’re a tire like my beat head sizes just vary based upon my my fishing application, I guess. Yeah, gotcha.

Dave S 57:34
Gotcha. Okay. And what about you know, if you’re on the Trinity, we’re fishing there, we’re swinging. We’re up there trying to find a seal. Would you have a tip or two you might give somebody to help them find that fish.

Matt 57:45
Just cover water. Yeah. You know, a lot of times guys just get they see a run. And oh my god, this is the spot. Right. And I think I might spend three hours driving around an eight hour day, fishing different spots because a lot of those fish as they’re pushing through that system, those fish are covering, they’re not holding down they’re like downloading like the Sweeney water stuff on the lower part of the river. You know, they’re, they’re going upstream they’re going to go upstream hang in, sometimes in some fish will hang there, but the majority of the fish are kind of, they kind of seem to push up for me at least. So your best days are going to be when you find fish that are chillin for a day or resting or, you know, holding up so you got to cover that water. And a lot of times if you find one you’re going to find more. So you know, rescue water, go back, try something different. Shell, you know, just, I mean, it’s like dating girls, you know, and you know this the I always think of steelhead. As supermodels, you’re going to go up to them and they’re going to reject you. Now what you got to come back with something differently, you get something that’s a little bit more peacock II or a little bit more attractive. Trying to see like what the supermodel wants. You know and you kind of just go back through there a little bit different like colors or size of, you know, fly eat of the fly stuff like t

Dave S 59:14
at and you just just kind of keep at it don’t give up. You know, are you getting a lot of action? You know, on the swing? Are you getting fish that come up and like tipping and kind of messing with it and not tak

Matt 59:25
ng it? Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. It was pretty funny. I I took our Japanese distributor his name masa and he, he does like loon and like Scott like done a ton of stuff over in Japan. And his son was studying in San Francisco actually. So he came up and we did a steelhead trip. We got into runs and I’m kind of standing up and behind him and watching his fly. And you would just see fish just like come up and just like a flash, like just roll on it. Yeah. And like You know, you, you, you’re waiting, like, come on, you’re waiting for the line to jump. But they’re they’re a curious creature. So I always say that fish don’t have hands so they have to feel with their mouth. You know, so that they come up and they might swipe at it or bump it, see what it does, right? So yeah, you’ll see fish like, especially when you’re skating flies, and you’ll see a fish come up and just be so inquisitive. Like, what is this? What is like 567 times? You put it through there at a different speed and all of a sudden, he he can’t handle himself anymore, right? He’s got to go grab it. So yeah, you can get a lot of insight and a lot of times because the river is so clear, a lot of times like, you’ll see a fish move on it, or you’ll see a fish move on your buddy’s fly and you’re just like, you know, he doesn’t even know what’s going on. But your heart’s going like 150 beats per minute. And then like, all sudden he gets the inside of the swing and you’re like, to the fish didn’t take it that sucked. And then he challenged me like Wait, what you Tell me I was like, I didn’t know that. There’s a fish. I mean, that takes the whole excitement out of that

Dave S 1:01:07
grass, you know? Exactly. And that’s odd. So what would be the other than the Trinity is there like what would be the steelhead river you would love to fish today if you could go anywhere in the country or any in or anywhere in the world I guess you could just say because you could throw in whatever right I don’t know if you want to. I’m not sure how far you’ve got around with your steel heading but it sounds like are you more kind of Northern California based or have you been out in some ot

Matt 1:01:37
er is? No, I mean, I’ve been I’ve been all through BC and you know, Oregon, Oregon, Washington and stuff like that. I used to my previous life I was like firefighter and paramedic and I lived out of the back of a truck for like four years. So on my days off like you know you have 20 days off a month I would go and adventure and fish places. Yeah, so you know no no wife no kids. Yeah, like responsibility level was like sub $500 a month for like, you know self cellphone and insurance and like maybe a car payment. So it afforded me a lot of time just to go and dirt bag around and live this kind of weird nomadic life but still be a respectable member of society as a firefighter slash paramedic. I don’t know, I would love to go to Russia just because, yeah, I think I think the steelhead project that Justin Miller from the fly shop is doing right now is it’s probably the most remote untouched region of the one of the most untouched regions for fly fishing destinations that we, you know, for indigenous fish, I guess, you know, you could do jungle stuff, but right. Um, you know, that would be that’s a that would be probably the

Dave S 1:02:55
thing. Yeah, you know, that’s it. That’s cool. Hey, where you are I’m gonna respect your time Matt here and and try to cut this off a little bit I I love these conversations because I’ve had a bunch of questions and I don’t think I’ve even asked you one that was on we’ve just got a chat here. So it’s but I this is the best for me but before we before we get out here I just want to check in with the well let’s finish up the 222 first resources if we take us back to the Trinity, what would be a couple of good resources that could be like book magazine online website anything comes to mind that could help somebody if they’re going to that river and they haven’t caught a steelhead yet where would you dire

Matt 1:03:38
t them So, man, I mean, as far as like books and stuff like that, that I don’t I don’t check out a lot of books I I personally just go and explore

Dave S 1:03:50
Yeah. So you’re not you’re not doing the online you’re not going online to a specific site or website or group or anything like that and getting some information. You’re just kind of going out and do

Matt 1:03:59
ng it. Yeah. Because I don’t always trust the like, like, if you go online like to forums and stuff like that, like, I, I’ve been burned really bad. And it’s like, you know, and I don’t want to like call, you know that I’m not like saying anybody’s name specifically but like, you see a guy and you know, you look at the forum thing and it’s like how do you gauge this guy beta and LG, this guy has 6000 posts, right? Wow, this, you know, that dude not like that dude to be the biggest keyboard jockey. Exactly. And like, the guys that don’t ever post and don’t have an Instagram account and don’t do social are like some of the fishiest dudes out there. Yeah, yeah. So, um, for me, like for resources if guys wanted to come and get the most up to date information, you know, and all the other shops, right

Unknown Speaker 1:04:55
Yeah, like what is the closes

Matt 1:04:57
shop? So we have Well, we have the flower shop and reading and Like a ton of the guys are going to be over there. They’re going to be fishing on their days off. They’re super forthcoming with information Yep. And probably like the Grand Poobah of like all swing fishing on the Trinity is the Trinity fly shop there you go and herb has been over there being a two handed guru for that river for longer than I’ve probably been a spell caster right like and you know and again super specialized patterns for the Trinity both shops are going to have everything that you need and those in their in their teams are going to give you like all of the information and you know cuz they just have boots on the ground over there, right like if they if they tell you that this creek blew out and don’t go to here like i’d respect that unless you wanted to go fish really murky blown out water? Because our weather systems won’t always affect the whole river system, if that makes sense. Like it could it could blow out at mile like 30 or something, you know, like whatever, whatever it is. S

Dave S 1:05:59
yeah, that’s p

Matt 1:06:00
rfect. But yeah, I support those guys and see what the

Dave S 1:06:03
know. Yeah no that’s a that’s a perfect answer that’s two amazing resources the fly shops obviously is the is the place to go so cool man well how about with what you have gone You obviously you’ve got you know a bunch of companies all this work here what in the next six to 12 months anything new where we can expect from any of the companies you’re working with you want to give a shout out to or or yourself pers

Matt 1:06:24
nally? Um yeah I mean bait well, nothing’s really launching I think until like this is the weirdest year ever right? No,

Dave S 1:06:31
right? Yeah. Everything, everybody because of the COVID thing has everybody kind of pause things like when they’re when they’re launching new pr

Matt 1:06:40
ducts? I have not personally and then everybody seems to kind of just be going like, no, we’re gonna move forward. We’re gonna get product out there. And But yeah, I mean, it’s definitely going to be a weird way that I think this is going to be the year of like social media launches, right? Cuz I FTD like the international fly tackle dealer show got canceled. No, it’s canceled. Yeah. And, um, so that’s kind of, you know, that’s kind of like where we roll it out, you know, like, here’s how the new stuff, we’re not gonna have that thi

Dave S 1:07:16
year. They are they gonna roll out kind of a virtual kind of wh

Matt 1:07:20
tever? Yeah, I mean, you know, sales meetings are canceled. You know, everything’s going to a zoom meeting. Just kind of different. Um, but yeah, I mean, we’re teas. Yeah, over at loon, I think you know, everything. Like in my brain. I’m like, right now. It’s so weird because I’m working on 2022. All right. I’m already. I’m already working on next year’s products to be fished this year and tested for over time so that I make sure that they’r

Dave S 1:07:50
good. That’s a good question, Matt. for that. I just think that because this comes up occasionally I think echo and, you know, we’ve talked about this before, but you know, in the products it seems like especially with the fly rods right this is always a thing where some companies come out with a new rod every year some companies say you know what, we got a good line. We’re not going to come out with a new rod every year to me how do you see it with this stuff? Because you’re the man you’re doing this for loon Do you see like, you know, you’ve got this product that’s working really great. Are you always, you know, kind of upgrading that changing it having to feel like you always have to come out with something new ever

Matt 1:08:22
year. Ah, no, and I’m super blessed because like my rod companies, and my real companies are totally on the same brainwaves as me. Like, I don’t just turn stuff over, like with like, like with echo the probably see like a five year lifespan of a rods. Exactly. And, you know, unless it becomes so apparent that there’s better technology out there we’re not you know, we’re not just going to paint something bright new color and change the paper 10% or something, you know, the blank or the mandrel. Same thing with Scott you know, like radium in its eighth year, and it’s still one of the best selling trout rods or fly rods out there. How do you beat that? Like, what what what world do you go? I’m gonna go just trash that we got to do a new one. You know, like, I dig letting things marinate, you know, it’s like flies, like when i when i got i tell guys that want to cast all the time and like the fish are not in the air. You know? So you gotta you gotta let it soak a while. So that’s kind of my philosophy on you know, products too. You know, we retire if stuff. If something sits for a few years at the bottom of loons category, it’s fallen way out of Vogue. Unfortunately, there are going to be guys who are bombed that we got rid of something, but at the end of the day, it’s like we’re putting something better back out there. Yeah. So yeah, no, I don’t know if there should be. I can’t really divulge any of the Kirby’s stuff unfortunately, yo

know. There

s just I hate to say it but unfortunately I just feel like there’s there’s too many variables in the world right now like especially with the COVID thing you know like if something happened and like we had to go on quarantine again and it shuts down business and then internationally even you know like like things could get it could get weird I don’t really foresee that happening but it’s a variable that I would take into

Dave S 1:10:28
ccount yeah here yeah man I think we’re all kind of Now coming back you know to a like we’re trying to restart the cutlery right everybody’s got to get back into try to ignore him that normal thing but yeah, I mean, this fall, it could just we could who knows be back on lockdown,

Matt 1:10:42
right? Yeah, and I mean, for me the last three weeks I felt like I’ve done three months worth of work in three weeks. You know, and like, finishing up my my computer work and like emails and order stuff like at 1130 or 12 o’clock at night. This because everyone reopened and everybody want it. You know, it’s like, you know, ever. Rivers are open and everybody does not back to that. You know, and it’s one of the first times in in a long time that I’ve seen there’s a shortage on fishing equipment. Yeah. So and it’s not just fly guys, it’s my buddies over on the conventional side too that are also you know, they did Yeah, no, you can’t get that product, you know? No, we’re w

Dave S 1:11:29
iting. just just just like try to get toilet paper off of the the roll for the store. Right? You can’t you got to go there early if you want to get your toilet paper. stuff, right. It’s kind of

Matt 1:11:40
funny. Exactly

Dave S 1:11:42
Cool. Cool. All right. Hey, man. Hey, I’ll let you get out of here. I just want to it’s loon outdoors calm if they want to find you. And what’s your Instagram? What’s your handle

Matt 1:11:50
there? So my Instagram is so Kell

Dave S 1:11:54
‘s. 23 Okay, p

Matt 1:11:55
rfect, perfect. So it’s just so in front of my last name, which was My my name from being a fireman from originally from Southern California. And that’s what guys cal

Dave S 1:12:07
ed me. Perfect for yeah and we I wanted to dig into that to hear how you you took it from a firefighter good to fly fishing but they will have to leave that down the line if we get you back on and chat about it but yeah, man Hey, thanks for coming on. I appreciate you know this conversation has been a lot of fun. I know we maybe didn’t dig into some of the product stuff as much but like I said, if we can maybe check check in later with you and then do a follow up episode. That’d be great. But yeah, thanks for sharing the good conver

Matt 1:12:34
ation. Absolutely. My pleasure. Thanks for having

Dave S 1:12:36
me on. Okay, I’ll talk to you later. So there you go. If you want to find all the shownotes all links we covered just go to wet fly swing comm slash 144. I’m looking for another person to head over this February to the Yucatan for a big saltwater trip for heading out for the Big Four. This is going to be amazing trips that up. I got fishing, looking for two more people to join the So you can send me a message directly if you’re interested. Dave at wet fly swing COMM And I’ll get you hooked up with some info and give you some details. Thanks again today for somebody check out the show. I’m looking forward to catching up soon hope to maybe see you on the river or

Unknown Speaker 1:13:15
nline. Thanks for listening to the wet fly swing fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing COMM And if you found this episode helpful, please subscribe and leave a review on

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loon outdoors

Conclusion with Matt Callies

We find out about the difference between the Sacramento River and the Trinity Rivers for steelhead and the one shop you should stop by if heading that way.   Matt talks about the companies he works with including his work as the sales manager for Loon Outdoors.