I connected with Rick Saez to talk about the Outdoor Biz Podcast and some tips to help you find out more about building a business in the outdoor space.  Rick is helping outdoor adventure businesses get into podcasting through his online courses.

We hear about how Rick started at the bottom and worked his way up through the business via multiple companies along the way.  Tons of shoutouts to companies in people in the outdoor and fly fishing industries.  It was a fun chat to BS about the outdoors with Rick.


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Show Notes with Rick Saez

02:30 – Eagle Creek, Dana Design, Umpqua Feather Merchants and Low Pro were all companies that Rick worked with before starting the Outdoor Biz Podcast.

03:30 – Tim Ferris is one of Rick’s favorite podcast and one of the reasons that Rick jumped into podcasting.

07:40 – Fishpond, Far Bank, Tom Sadler, and Korkers have all been on the podcast with Rick.  I had Tom Sadler on the podcast here in episdoe 98.

09:04 – You can check out some of the resources that Rick offers to help you start your own podcast.

12:50 – The Outdoor Retailer Show is a great event to attend if you want to network.

14:00 – Snews and the Voice Magazine was noted here in relation to new companies in the outdoor industry.

19:45 – I missed Rick who was at IFTD this year.  Rick describes what the Outdoor Retailer Show is like after 20 years.

21:30 – We talk about the hosted trips that I’m doing with guides and lodges from guests I’ve had on the podcast.

27:00 – Gregg Bleakney is a good example of someone who quit the day job for the outdoor biz.

27:50 – Elliott Adler was on the podcast in episode 54 and talked about starting your podcast.

27:20 – The Wild Ideas Podcast got picked up by REI.

31:20 – Kelly Galloup was on the podcast in episode 52 to talk about streamers.

34:15 – I noted the upcoming hosted steelhead trip to the OP.  You can check out the trip here and get more information here.

34:50 – I interviewed Frank Moore here about the North Umpqua.

39:10 – The Colorado Tear Drop episode was the most popular episode for Rick to this point.

40:00 – I noted Rent This Rod who was on the the podcast.

42:00 – We talk about overlanding and what it’s all about.  Maybe we need an overlanding guest like the AdventurePortal.com who covers all of this stuff and can explain the benefits.

43:15 – Roof Nest Tents were noted here and part of the overlanding groups out there.

49:30 – MontBell pillow or the Thermarest chair kit are our luxury hiking items.

52:30 – Tim Ferris and Entrepreneurs on Fire along with Channel Mastery Podcasts are all goto’s for Rick.

56:40 – The Croatia podcast workshop is a new resource.


You can find Rick here.


Resources Noted in the Show

The Wild Ideas Podcast

the wild ideas podcast


Here’s the Thermarest Chair I Love

thermarest chair kit


Videos Noted in the Show

Frank Moore was on the podcast 


rick saez


Dave S 0:00
This is the wet fly swing fly fishing Show Episode 121 cue the intro. Welcome to the wet fly swing fly fishing show where you discover tips, tricks and tools from the leading names in fly fishing today, we'll help you on your fly fishing journey with classic stories covering steelhead fishing, fly tying and much more. Hey, how's it going everyone thanks for stopping by the fly fishing show. I've got a big giveaway going on to win a trip to Pyramid Lake along with a bunch of great products will be heading out with myself and a couple other folks from the podcast. Just head over to https://wetflyswing.com/giveaway to get all the details. Today's episode I talked with Fred Klein who breaks down classic wet flies today. We hear about Ray Bergman the streamers 365 project get some great tips on tying classic wet flies as Fred described some of his favorite patterns in more detail. Don't miss this one is Fred shares his top six must have classic wet fly books.

Definitely some classics. So, without further ado, here's Fred Klein.

How's it going, Fred?

Hi, Dave. Hey, thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah, thanks for coming on. we've, we've been connected a little bit on Instagram for a while your flies, are shiny and beautiful. You've got all these wet flies. And obviously, the wet fly swing is the name of this podcast. And, you know, which is kind of a little bit of a play on words, just because it's not all wet flies. But I do love the history. And today we're going to jump into some of that history and how you tie those flies. But before we get there, can you talk about how you first got into fly fishing and fly tying.

Fred 1:40
When I was when I was a kid, my dad and my grandfather were both fishermen.mainly in the Atlantic, the Delaware River. So I grew up on fishing rods, and when I was younger, my dad moved to country. We live in the Philadelphia area and bought a farmhouse out in the middle of nowhere.

So we had a

big pond that was springfed and it was full of brook trout. And

they ranged in size but there were plenty of trout and they're over 24 inches

thick trout now that's a real cold were in the middle of the summer to jumped in and it would stink.

So I got my first fly rod I was nine years old.

Love that. Someone taught me how to cast and fish and give me some flies. So

I went to a library and which, you know, back then that's where you that's where you learn things from books.

So the books in the library that I went to were all old books, right but when you know the old the old style books

so I made a homemade fly by Santa

Claus pen and started tying flies. And you know at that time


we had a lot of wet flies, butterflies were so popular that was back in the 70s.

We had we had dry flies, but I always enjoyed about flies and streamers more than anything.

And of course,

our audience information that we could get back then was from magazines and books.

So outdoor life field and stream and that sort of thing.

And back then there were a lot of the articles about fly fishing or about, you know, the classic wet flies

and the traditional style streamers.

So we have

I left we had several streams and rivers that had trout and I'm so

which it's in it's actually in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains so I grew up

fishing all the time above the

weekends nights Yep.

Dave S 4:18
suffer from an early age you've been gone When did you When did the the wet fly the tying I guess Instagram you've been doing that for a few years that you've been tying these wet flies and this for a long time?

Fred 4:32
Yeah, I started out flying flying wet flies always loved the look at the

colorful row coachman Grizzly King

and the streamers

Kerry Stevens

bucktails and all the old stuff.

So yeah, started off with all that and I finished everything over the years, of course.


damping drives.

Dave S 5:05
Pretty much everything I've always I've always loved the traditional. Gotcha. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned. You mentioned Ray Bergman. That's a pretty big name is would you say he's the maybe talk about him a little bit and some of the other big names in the in the classic or in that era and kind of who they were maybe just talk about him who he was and how what his influence was on kind of some of the fly tying stuff.

Fred 5:29
Sure. Ray Bergman.

He was he was actually an editor for for outdoor life for a number of years.

From in the 30s to the 60s, he was the the angling editor for outdoor life.

So he he traveled extensively across the United States and Canada many many miles and was a

very capable, intelligent fishermen.

And love the right about it.

Now, Ray Bergman, you know, his

most famous book was trout 1938.

But he also had four other other books. The book trout in 1938 had 440 flies

in the book which is outstanding. It's actually the biggest collection of

flies from pre world war two which is mainly what I tie in pre World War Two era flies.

So he was he was a passionate fishermen and

with with all the flight

patterns that are painted in the book from Dr. Edgar Burke, on the color plates because of course back then books were illustrated with sketches and paintings.

photographs. So every every book on one

fly fishing and fly time would have been sketches and paintings pre World War Two,

pre world war two and then as we get into the 50s

Joseph date

you see some painted flies

and a small number of photographs but their report quality

so red Bergman

mainly the flies in his book were wet flies, streamers, dry flies, with all the dressings, the recipes

with notes and instructions on how to tie them how to fish them. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful question until I very much would you say

Dave S 7:56
I was gonna say sounds like the ultimate resource for that

Fred 8:00
This is one of them. A lot of a lot of people call it the Bible of

classic fly fishing, which

it's, it's one of them. There are several great works through the years. But that's that's definitely one that everyone wants to

Dave S 8:15
have. They're going to tie on flies, fish on flies or just look at him. That's a great resource. That's it. Okay. Cool. And can you take us back a little bit? I mean, I guess he wrote about a lot of the old guys and some of the old flies and all that stuff, can you? I don't know. Just go back in history with wet flies as far back as you want to go and kind of start there just for to set the stage. And I don't know where you want to start me. I'll just leave that to you. What do you think would be best to describe kind of what they're all about?

Fred 8:44
Okay, well, fly fishing has been around for a long time. Very long time. Yeah, how long? How long do we do we know like, how long?

thousands, thousands. Okay, thousands are here. There are


There's a lot of talk about it and you can read a lot of things but there's there's

some evidence of Egyptians using feathers. We would today call a fly to catch fish. So here you go, you know, they they imitated insects.

And that's why fish Yep, there's there's an recall the names of all the books and the sources but there's some very old

literature from Germany from.

It's been around for a long time.

Now in America

to start the discussion on flight time fly fishing in America, we really have to start

in England, Scotland, and Ireland, which is where

our roots and fly fishing come from.

The flies and techniques

that we started using here in America, all came from it.

Dave S 10:00
flatfish remember volumes of books written on fly fishing trout and salmon. And it was just wet flies and dry flies right back back in that day there were no there really no nip nip fishermen.

Fred 10:15
It was mostly wet flies, even dries mostly

for the most part now that that that could be debated, but for the most part, I think most flies were were red flies

and many hackles which, quite honestly, if you tie them small enough, look very much like a nymph.

Very few dry flies, and I'm sure you guys did use them. And there's there's so much to the sport that was going on that wasn't written about, but it was not popular. I think dry flies became more popular

in the Catskill region in the 1900s right

So, the flies and techniques that came over from from Europe with, with the immigrants were used on on chalk streams, which were slower streams and rivers.

And many of those flies and techniques work in America but America is different. We had we had fast moving water, big rivers, rocks, it was it was different style of fishing, you know, limestone.


Americans started to adapt techniques and flies

because I wanted to catch fish and

a lot of the the equipment,

the fly materials

and also literature, which was very important, came from came from Europe and Americans slide on that


For a long time,

the first

work really in literature which literature is really the only thing that we have to talk about back on written print.

And some of the old equipment that we see music museums, which help us see how people did things back then but most of it was from literature.

The first guy that really wrote

a good book on fly fishing was today's nice

in America, and he was he was from Philadelphia, and he was a lifetime fishermen.

He was very well respected, and he was also very talented fly fisherman.

Now he was he was born in 1811. And his book was published in 1864.

He was a very good

Well read very well spoken.

Man actually. It was said that he was the American Walden.

But he saw the need to write a book

on the American fly fishing experience. So he wrote the American anglers book 1864.

He wrote, The book is a wonderful work of literature actually. I've read that. And I've learned so much from it even as a modern fly fisherman. A lot of the techniques that we use today and skill are the same that were used back then, of course, a lot of change but trial or trial.

Dave S 13:42
And in that book, was there much it was mostly still wet flies and that that type of fishing.

Fred 13:50
He had

workflows and hackles and his book and the run many

There were actually sketches I think, in turn on call how many there were but it was like six or 10 slides that he

had and they were they were hackles over a few lines.

A few Simon flies

brought about

what it was like

fishing in America in detail.

Dave S 14:27
Which, of course, that would have encompassed his lifetime, especially in which book was published in 1864. So a lot of what he wrote about where his experiences over the years, what wasn't like, Yeah, well, what can you take us there? I mean, what was it like fishing in America back in his time versus, I mean, can you paint that picture a little bit?

Fred 14:48
Oh, yeah. Well

first of all, brook trout was the

was the native trout to America and Simon


We want an 1800s there were plentiful fish.

He talked a lot about he fish everywhere throughout the country. He must have traveled a lot and it makes you stop and think because these people didn't they didn't have cars, trains, including the west or and things like that for steelhead and all that. I'm not sure how far he went, yeah, but he, he fished. He fished far and wide. Now back then the motor travel was horse.

So it takes quite an effort to get around that far to go fishing back in back in those days. So that's that's a lot of passion. Yeah.

He talked a lot about

wilderness streams. He talked a lot about rivers that were

in more populated areas. Of course, he was in the Philadelphia area. He talked about even back then he talked about mass pollution

chemical spills


Whenever we talked about was the school River, which was west of Philadelphia that

during that time and industry, dumped some chemicals in the river and kill all the fish off. Yeah. And so people were already taking notice

that the the ecosystem was fragile. And if we were going to maintain

fish populations, we had to handle it with care. Now, the further you went away from big cities, the melodica, just like today, but you were talking about

representation streams that were loaded with fish in America are a book.

I can't call the name of it was about

a man who was from Harrisburg, and he was the book is called 30 years of hunter

in Pennsylvania, and he was he was basically a pioneer

Right around the beginning of the 19th century, and he built a cabin up along the pine Creek and slave run. And she talked in detail about the wildlife, the mountain lion, the wolves, the deer and the trout. And

of course back then are no rules or Indians there and he was

very, very far from a

populated area. And

he would build a dam and pine Creek in front of his cabin, and he would put openings in the rock and

attach baskets.

And in the morning, he'd come out the basket before butcher out any freedom those pics

for pig feet. Yeah.

So things have changed here and American strange but I believe from what I read

back in those days

There were a lot of trouble yeah

Dave S 18:03
yeah, that's probably all right the the the Native Americans that died right that's it that was that was part of the deal.

Fred 18:11
Sure. Well, the Native Americans they said I think that they they didn't more netting and spearing efficient. Yeah, fishing, they did fish for Tots trade a bond and such things, but I think most of it was there, we get together in a group and, and

the fish in a certain area and catch them with NetSim. Exactly. And stuff like that. But it must have been really, really amazing. Yeah, I think the further the further north, you went away from top of the areas such as you know, in the beginning of the column, colonized areas where you know, New York, Philadelphia,

the further north you went, and the further west you went, the more on touch the wilderness was. That's why Maine was such an amazing

brook trout and salmon fishery because before the railroad

There was very few people out there

you know, we had

we had mass tempering going on in the United States in the Catskills, Pennsylvania You know, there's barely a tree standing right and some of these states so in a timber to that extent

they took the shade away and with timbering people and people fish and people people put it reverse that's why you know a lot of a lot of all plants you see along rivers throughout the area industrial buildings that along rivers for a reason sort of take a dump in excess. Exactly. Remember

Dave S 19:42
there's been ups and downs Exactly. I mean that's thing with the you know environmental you know, issues I mean, it's been definitely really bad in some places have gotten better and we still have issues. Yeah, I didn't want to I mean, I think obviously there Yeah, things were a little bit different me Can we talk a little bit about when you think of your

Flight tying I mean what's your Instagram handle?

Recently King fly yeah crazy crazy King fly and you have all these amazing beautiful shots of old classic flies. Can you talk a little about some of those flies that you tie? Maybe what's Is there a common common materials that are used for those and maybe talk about a couple of tips for tying those you know how you make them look so clean?

Fred 20:24
Sure, well

Dave S 20:27
a lot of the old slides and the slides that I tire on pre World War Two, actually because the flies that I fish are pre World War and what happened in World War Two why was that a Why is it a pretty is that just a good place to kind of everybody knows that date

or was there let me

Fred 20:46
know actually closer closer around and are still used quite a bit if you go up to Maine, really amazing regionally region. Walking in Flash shops up there and the bins are full of classic streamers. Wonderful.

And you talk to them and and, you know, they they stop. There's the old patterns. It's their tradition.

I would say the reason why I mainly tie flies before World War Two is the books that I focus on are


before World War Two or shortly after that which contain mostly flies, fishing flies from, you know, that error long before that. Gotcha. But

it's interesting the evolution of flies.

They were

very colorful

and never large. Tell our shiny Hello colors with a very large, very large

at the American Museum of fly fishing, Manchester, Vermont we visit up there just about every year on trips that we take up in the morning

I mean

some of these wetlands are tight on size to size one really big hooks, very large chunks. And they were they were used for salmon and Mike trout and so forth, but they're very large.

You know, they they used

materials that attracted fish, mainly brook trout and salmon. Now back in those days,

brown trout were not

an entity in the United States they were introduced much later. So for the most part, fly fishermen cold water species were fishing for trout and salmon, brook trout and salmon.

They'll hit big, shiny, colorful flies like alexandro

rattling around February, we're just up in Indiana. My son and I are open in the Adirondacks.

This fall and I was using

several doctors and Alexandra lateralized which are very, very colorful flies and from topsis hammer. Now, if you throw a colorful fly like that, for brown trout, they will hit it.

Not to be less reluctant. More choosy. Gotcha. So when you look at when you look at some of the old boy pattern, wow, I would have fish,

Dave S 23:31
brook trout and salmon. And that kind of makes me kind of makes me think about the Euro nim thing stuff, you know where those flies, some of them don't imitate anything. They're just a hot spot and I'm looking at right now the Pathfinder from Ray Bergman's trout, this is something on your Instagram from 1938. It's a you know, it's a bright, it's a red body, no tail, and it's got that wing which is the duckling Well, can you describe that wing? You've got two styles. Sometimes you see it pointed up. Sometimes it's pointed down. Sometimes it's out

You What does that mean? called? Is that is that is there a special name for that tape? is I take the lead with the lead when coach them is what I always think of.

Fred 24:07
Okay, yeah, well what fly wings

before 1900 primarily put down

that was the popular style back then.

When you look through books, old fly Wallace museums, you'll see there's no reason for that. That's just that's just the way it was they just kind of did tip down


fishing flies and it's like anything else in

history, the popular styles and people do what's in fashion at the time in vogue at the time and that was

that was in fashion. It's very much like clothing.

fishermen who talk about what works and

and they did what they saw others doing and what was popular.

Now around the turn of the

early 20th century,

wet fly wings you would see a lot of tip up flies but the tip down, wet fly fall in

the 1900s as well. When you when you look at

the web flies in

Charles out for

physical books Charles Charles up all of his fishermen have a flyer that's 1883 and America was my boy 1892

on the website wet, wet fly wings are tipped down. When you look at Ray Bergman's trout 1938 the tips are up so the style the time now I finish these ones

all the time. It's

mainly what I what I fish and I take videos of how they look underwater and current

Honestly, I I actually

think that a tip down what fly looks better

than a tip up but they're both good

Dave S 26:12
I think the fly hits the water they kind of look the same Yeah exactly. Or they don't look natural or they get eaten yeah I'm looking at now I'm looking at the silver doctor This is under

when when you post this September 7 of 2019 and man I mean I didn't realize yeah the wing on this you've got married 123456 different colors of and is that just is that duck is that is that typically just the duck flank or what what's the feather typically used for the wings

Fred 26:42

Yeah, it's it's it's tied by goose just okay. Some duck died Turkey. Okay, works well.

Dave S 26:56
Pretty well and and on this one. So I know you're

I think you're on the ambassador for Partridge hooks it is, you know, are the hooks? Is there a traditional classic style hook? Is it that? I don't know if it's the what, what is it's not the Sproat or is there a style that's your classic that they all use back then are there a few different variations?

Fred 27:16
Remember many variations would be they would be

different time periods certain hooks were popular.

You know if you go back into the 1800s this broke bend,

Carlisle bend

the band of the Hawk is

the difference. Now

Dave S 27:44
the stroke band was was very common throughout the early 1900s and you'll see that Ray Burton's trout and what is this broke just just so people know that don't know because you don't really see the Sproat, Ben that much anymore. Dia

Fred 27:59

To me, it's coming because I use an extremely common, you know, party to read, makes beautiful

sperm butterfly hooks and different sizes. It's a web hook.

It can be used for all different sorts of flies actually. It's a it's an average size

with a fairly round then that extends more at the bottom of the Ben.

Yeah, sort of old fashioned material, but it works very well. So solid hook. It's a strong hook.

Now of course in the 1800s and into the 1900s,

flies, retired on Blind Eye hooks with the leaders

and the 1900s. Actually,

in the late 1800s, they started to make

books with with eyes

can see that actually

in Marianas Marbury's book in 1892 some of the some of the smaller trial flies have it hooks

and the book The blind, I got hook

and soak later how long for quite a while is my effect when when, when I was a kid, you would see

Dave S 29:24
workflows tied with leaders that stayed popular for a long time. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Okay. And so do you have a few you know, for tying these classics, they just did the classic wet flies. I mean, they look pretty standard right? They got a lot of them have a tail some don't they got a thin body a rib. What are do you have a tip for tying those like if somebody wants to try to make them as nice as what yours look like? Any any tips for helping somebody?

Fred 29:52

I'd start off with with some basic

butterflies that are popular

work really well.

The professor what fly which has been around for a long long time from England the good as the King

coachman encouragement Israel flies at work wonderfully Yeah.

And they still work today I use them all the time. Yeah

it's it's a bit of a different

style and thought process time. Classic lies. I would say if you if you really want to tie wet flies and and fish time and enjoy the whole wet fly classic fly experience

put some time into it.

It's it's really a different process and the longer you spend with it, you learn the tricks you go and start looking better looking at a lot of

Go ahead.

I'm sorry, a lot of people could get discouraged but with tying the wings in, I know

I tell people it's like riding a bike you know once once you get it it's like casting a flyer up. When you first pick a fly right up a thumbs it doesn't flow now it

Dave S 31:21
is the key to turn those into the the goose or mouth or whatever uses the key to pinch really tight and do a loose wrap and come down and and wrap it a few times before you let go of that tight pinch. Or what's your secret to debate tie in and keep him straight? Cuz that's what they tend to do with new people. Right? They follow or they fall over?

They do. Yeah, they do. But you sounds like you've taught too much like I've tried a few I definitely I grew up old school like like I said the lead main coachman. I still have, you know, some of my box and those wings I've tied. I wouldn't say they look as good as yours. But I know that's one trick is Yeah, keep a tight pinch up top.

Fred 32:01
That's exactly right. Yeah, the

tire a good wet fly wing proportions on a fly is everything

we want to the end of the wing to be somewhere near the end of the hook shank.

Sometimes a little further beyond the hook shine, but

if you're tying small flies and you're trying to imitate and they fly let's there's a fly called a yellow Sally and it's a really good, proper indication. Now, if you're going to tie a big attractor, fly that it's colorful and dramatic and they'll swing and

drift and it will spin and vibrate in the water. You know, that'll work as an attractor. But if you want to imitate a mayfly in it, you can turn it on a much smaller hook and tire, a small wing on it and it'll do a better job of replicating a natural

insect but yeah, when you tie a wet fly when you pinch it, make sure you have the right length, you have to two slips of feathers. pinch it tight to the hook.

Let your thread hang.

Take one wrap over

the feather. Take another wrap of the feather and import tight.

If you if you take one wrap

and pull the wing tight

it'll tend to flip on you.

If you take two you can let your bobbin hang in the weight of the

thread on the bottom should should hold them in place then you can adjust it. Yeah, make sure it looks good. And then put another rapper to wanna hold tight terminal. That's it. That's it and when you pick those heck out of those,

Dave S 33:54
you know the wing mature you're taking them kind of from opposite sides, right that one side of the bird and the other side are you occasionally getting

Is that always the case when you get tytos

Fred 34:04
Yeah, you

know, every every father has a left and a right.

You want to pick a slip off of a left and a right match them to be off the same part of the Father. The best way to do it is have to two like feathers that are opposite left and right.

Kind of slip out of

the opposite.

cut them out, make sure that they're the same size. Hold them on top of your hook. Of course your thread is already the thread has already started on the fly.

You hold the feather on top of the hook and then

Dave S 34:44
put it on. That's it and pull tight and I'm looking at the Royal coachman wet fly dead on July 1 2019. It's got in the back I guess that's golden pheasant. Tippett right us for the tail there.

Fred 34:57

Dave S 35:00
Looks like you use the tip of the gold I know on some flies and I'm not talking classics but sometimes I'll just strip off some golden pheasant and then match them up. Was that ever the case or is it always when you're tying these classics is the golden pheasant you want just that little tip? Now typically you would

Fred 35:18
try and

five or six to eight bbls he would take you would take a section of the feather in time and I I tie him that way because I think it looks good on a pretty show flow that way they fish well too. Yeah doesn't say it doesn't look yeah sticks out.

Dave S 35:39
I like to cut them cut them out that way because I look like a cool how do you tie the you know your your head cement or whatever you use? What are you what are you using? It's nice and round it's almost looks like a nice factory guide you know kind of coated Do you have a special way to do that when you just coat your your head?

Fred 35:57
Yeah, it's it's funny you you mentioned that a lot.

People been asking me how I get my heads

to look like that. And all I use is

just an ADA

uni thread.

I get the size of the head right? You always you always start tying the head from the front and work your way back.

If you start from the back and work your way from the thread slips and it can turn into a mess start at the front work your way back build it up.

A lot of people would say a small head is

is a

you know better looking better fishing hidden I agree.

It's it's,

well let me back up.

When you're tying up a classic fly whether it be as a classic streamer, but tail,

feather wings streamer, a wet fly.

You start your thread back

From the I as far back as you want the hind part of your head to be so as you tie your fly, you can leave that hook shank bear.

So people say how can you have that much material on a fly in the body, the ribbing the arm of the silk and having such a small head? Well there's nothing on the

the hook shank is barely tie the head. There you go.

It's not all it's not being tied over top of all your materials. Exactly. So I use an eight

and then I use lacquer. Usually 234 coats depending on the size of the fly. Now lacquer lacquer takes a long time to dry. Actually for it to really dry. It takes days. Okay. You can Yeah, no, I'll put a put a coat on and let it dry for

1015 minutes.

put another coat

On a dry sometimes a third and even a fourth code, depending on the size of the fly big streamer heads might take four even five coats.

If you set that fly down and come back and look at it, and today's it looks like

shiny thread thread wraps that just soaks in and it shrinks. So yeah, it takes quite a while for lekar.

Dave S 38:24
Dry. I'm looking at another one, the native Finn. This is back in. This is a cool looking fly. It's orange, white, and silver.

Looks like you tied this in June 21 of this year. And yeah, but yeah, he talked about that a little bit looks like there's a thin there's a series of Pfizer what you say here's their number of Brooke Finn, including the machine Bell which we've talked about on this show before. So this is pretty common style fly.

Fred 38:55
It is well it used to be



are created to look like

the fin on the belly of a bookshop. Oh, cool. That's exactly what looks like nice. Now what what happens is return are aggressive, and they're territorial. And they bite each other's friends.

So, especially during the spawn, I'll tell you a little story about this. That's why the native fin is actually my design. There's there's a number of portraits and flies I made that one up.

One of us that

was quite a bit of success with portrait and actually brown trout and salmon white those

there's something about

red, white,


Yeah, orange flies. It's just an attractive fly, you know, for for example, and I'm probably getting off subject a little bit but

you know, when we

kids would fish with

rooster tails nap spinners and

there were big spinners with

colorful feathers and

flashy blades with you know, pink and orange and red.

Red Devil spins

Dave S 40:23
that was red devil or Daredevil. Oh I think colorful stunts. Yeah no time. Oh yeah the red the red and white spins and Chrome.

Fred 40:32
Yeah, they were very popular and they still work. those colors are just attract fish. They see that flashing by

but the


the brook trout

fin wet flies are very effective. Now factors for

it was it was during the spawning season for brook trout and I took my blanket fishing.

patrol weren't weren't hitting anything because when they spawn, they stop eating.

They will not feed.

As far as I know, from from my experience that only

the only fly that I could catch him one was that native son

in the water and they have because

Unknown Speaker 41:24
they're aggressive, they see the colors, their meeting mode, and they share something that looks like a Trump fan and they just gotta hit it. It's a lot of fun. Wow. So what and what month is this when you're when they're spawning the P or when you could use this use that tactic that fly? Oh, October November. Yeah. So basically, it's actually not final work all year long. Oh, well now to a book for trout stream. And that's a very, very effective fly. How do you so the wings on this one, it's orange, and I'm looking at john shooey

Dave S 42:00
was on way back in Episode 16 of this podcast and he talked about the power of machine. Think I'm saying that right a per machine Bell or machine? Oh yeah, I don't know if you heard John's story or if you know john at all he's kind of on the west coast. He's the editor of the fly. Fly Fishing flight. Yeah, Northwest fly fishermen magazine.

But yeah, he's a big classic, classic tire more like classic steel head flies and stuff. And while I wrote the book on classic steel and flies, but but he has a story about the piracy though he told it that episode, I'll put a link in the show notes where he he was studying all the classic flies for his book because you know, now classic steel rise, like everybody's bored of them, right? That's kind of thing but he loves them. He still fishes him and he just want to test it out. So he grabbed the pharmacy but I think he said for I think a year he didn't fish any other fly for steel, except for except for that one. And he recorded all the data and he caught just as many fish you know, and I mean steel. It's obviously a little bit different than trout fishing, but the point is, is

That, you know, he wanted to make the point that you know what classic flies still catch fish?

Fred 43:04
Oh my gosh, this

sounds great. Yeah, sounds like honestly this. This is I fish a lot. I have a lot of good trotwood around where I live actually I haven't watched the Class A while Trump stream behind our home. It's a couple hundred feet down my house I walk to this

and actually have three trout streams near where I live that I can walk to.

and pleasure. butterflies are work now. I think what I think what happens is

a lot of people want to try on flies and they're, they're full of history. stylistic, beautiful,

colorful, and they'll try them

for a day or a few hours. They don't do well with them.

There's a technique to it. And it's like any other

style of fishing whether it's dry flies or nothing.

It takes time to learn how to learn the ins and outs

of fishing with classic flies, they they work they work really well. Of course,

the evolution of flies, fly fishing

evolved for a reason because we we got smarter, we learn how to annotate, match the hatch, and so forth. A lot of classic wet flies do match the hatch.

I wouldn't say they match it, as well as

some of the modern flies. But

if you spend some time with classic flies, learn how to fish and learn how to tie them. There's little

little tricks that you learn just like with nothing and modern streaming,

some of the old all the modern flies that we have today

work so well you have to learn the ins and outs of

sides, different seasons, the water, whether it's high water, colored water, clear water, winter, summer, spring fall dragonflies work

and all these different conditions. And if you're using these old flies you learn what works and what doesn't work and you can make minor changes to, for example, a grizzly came

is tied with a forest green silk body.

And if you try these small

and you would use a lighter more of a lime almost what we would call a catice. Green Could I that slight color variation and the body completely changes the performance of that fly, but different conditions.

So you're learning us because of course we like it's fish that's around overflow. We enjoyed being on the water and we enjoy being in

I really like this one first. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave S 46:05
What do you think makes when you think of class class what what makes a good a good flight pattern? I mean there's so many variation when I look at these old books I mean, I'm looking at another one from the Harlequin you know that another one on your, on your feed from Ray Bergman's book and you know, it's black, it's all black. It's got some burgundy hackle they can you describe it because they all look kind of similar just a bunch of different colors or whether they all look similar but the less it what what makes a good classic wet fly.

Fred 46:35
Well, it really depends on

on conditions.

For book trout

for salmon, landmark, salmon, Atlantic salmon, big, flashy, colorful,

big wins, red, white, yellow, lots of peacock Crow, flashy

for those fish.

They love that stuff whether it be a wet

for brown trout more subtle

Dave S 47:08
more than natural was like this is the Harlequin more of a that's more of what the what would that be for

Fred 47:18
the Harlequin is isn't attractive fly but it's black and it has has the wind color tackle mixed with black it's more of a natural looking fly that frankly

some of these flies work the same way only it works

you know for example that fly has as a black wing Black Hawk or you put it in a current the wing lays down it moves through the water very well could be a minute very well could be

just a

Yeah. creature in a creek that just looks good deed to a trout and I'll grab it just like

Well, you know what's a woolly bugger? Yeah, it's a really buggers Creek creature could be a minnow could be a crayfish it could be that the fish go for some poor brown trout or webalizer great pattern most most of the most of the white flies that I fish are large.

Now I do tie them small, but

by today's standards there are large


Amar little buzz it's a it's a peacock body.

It's essentially a large soft tackle

with browner ruffed grouse hackle and I was fishing one of those this summer up in the Appalachian Mountains here in a

beautiful river and I caught by hook that didn't land it but I thought the biggest trout of my wife and that's why I was assigned sex.

This this trout was was

Just downstream of a spring fed

stream falling another river

it was Thunder a big down sycamore tree in the cold water and I dropped that fly in front of them. And he hit it. He had it three times before I have them

and I was a big size six pro tuck and mailto and he ran with that thing and he really ran.

He was big as a video of this fish was

comparable to steal. It was a big trap. Okay, but

now that's more of a natural looking fly.

Who knows what he thought it could have been to him It could have been a stone flyer could have done a terrestrial could have a good

Dave S 49:49
What about the silver og? I'm looking at the silver stork now another one from Ray's book in do you think?

You know, I mean, do you have one of your Instagram

post that you'd say is one of the most popular and most common and on Are they all pretty similar?

Fred 50:07
As far as well there's a big difference between flows that people like and flows the fish like, Oh, yeah, yeah, say the say the ones people I saw Do you think it does so they're not always the same?

Not really. It's funny because

there's a book

that was published and I've been talking about on my favorite, one of my favorite books with


There's 500 fly patterns.

I'm sorry. 2200 whiteflies streamers. TJ had some mattered.

The book is called flies and was it was published in 1950. The two bucks public morality in 50 was chosen

and monitored.

Joseph Bates has streamers. Yes. And he, you're right. He, he sent letters out. And Kerry Stevens got back to him and she said

regarding what fly works best. She said, you know, most of my, a lot of my flights are really made to catch fishermen more. So that's okay. Stephen said.

Yeah, that's all and this was totally unrelated. She said, I really don't tie flies or fish anymore. She was

Dave S 51:29
getting pretty old. Have you heard of this true? Have you heard a test cateura flies.

He's derron he's I had him on the way back. He's a big streamer guy. And he put together this thing called streamers. 365 It's a Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So So Darren was one of the guys behind putting that whole thing together. I think it was a fly every day or something or however he did it, but ya know, it's interesting. So but he talked about Kerry Stevens in there. And you know, the the


Well, hey, we are afraid we're getting pretty close here. I'm gonna have to start, you know, wrapping this up and I before we get into I just want to do

you know jump in, you've mentioned a few really good resources. I'll put links to all those in the show notes. I usually start start this off, you know, just with like the 222, which is top two five top two tips, top two resources and we're thinking of fly tying. Have you have we said you maybe your top two if you had to pick two flies per se brook trout that are classic wet flies, you know what you should have in your box? You just have to pick two.

Fred 52:35
It depends on what part of the country and if I were up in Maine fishing, I'd probably go more for like a ranger. Yeah, let's go here. Let's, let's see where this goes mean. If I were fly fishing in Maine, for for brook trout, I would.

I would fishing out Alexandra on a regular regular web fly.

On a sprout hook

And I believe that and Alexandra as well. Many flies actually replicate a minute more than I do. I didn't

train Alexandra


I would go with Kerry Stevens

feather wings dreamer of the Boston Blackie. Oh cool. That's it's kind of an unknown. I have it on my website and on my Instagram it's black fly with with the natural green sheen to it and it has golden pheasant green gills shoulder. Oh yeah.

And it's just a wonderful fly. This has

been present

or jungle cat guy on the shoulders. It's a great fly. You can you can see that on my website or instant

Dave S 54:00
goes to my first book. Okay, I'll take a look at some of these I will probably put a video or two where I can find them have some YouTube stuff of some of the stuff we talked about and then you mentioned a number of resources me some classic books and stuff anything else you maybe book magazine, video, anything any other resource for classic whiteflies you'd recommend people check out

Fred 54:21


six books that I focus on and I think it really encompasses those books encompass the history of fly fishing in America

from the period we're talking about and and this is not including

the Catskill dry fly traditional.

Much isn't a wall wonderful all the time. Yeah. Yes.

must read wonderful books to have in your on your bookshelf in your library to page two

From the Luxor people that know nothing about fishing or fly fishing well to look through super flies

as North

America angler

American English book could be one.

The next would be

Charles up for this fishing with the fly, which was published in 1883. Wonderful, wonderful bucket didn't get the attention that Marissa was monetary got it with her book. It was

much smaller than her book. But still a wonderful, wonderful book of poetry,

literature and fly plates from from back then

third favorite flies in their history is by Maria was marberry. That's 1892 which is incredible. That's something everyone should have people love looking for.


is a very big book

32 color flight plates 233 trout and Simon flies, colorful, beautiful, really good read to. The third of course is right, my Burgundy's trial.

And the other two I mentioned.

Joseph beats,

streamers and bucktails it's called streamers and bucktails the big fish flies.

Great book on on streamers that came out around 1950 But of course, most of the flies around long before World War Two

or during that era, color plates

fly dressings, how to tie them how to fish

and Jason Leonard 1950 This book is called flies 2200 what fly streamers

Recognizing the patterns, instructions wonderful if you if you

will that pretty much sums it up. Yep. Yeah, that's

Dave S 57:10
that's awesome. Yeah, there's so we're close to Christmas. So that's a that's a good Christmas wish list.

Fred 57:18
And if you look on eBay, they don't cost much. Oh, do they? Are they pretty? spendy hard to get?

Not really. They're there. They're always there

you go. That's awesome. Yeah, I just I just got a second edition of Ray Bergman's trout.

Great shape with the cover. For four was shipping it was $9

Dave S 57:41
Yeah, you can't bend Yeah, I'm thinking some of these books that are more recent. They're really popular books that are out of print. Or some just hard to me. Yeah, some of those you'll pay 100 200 bucks. Sometimes you'll see out there that because you can't get them.

That's good. Well, what about to, you know, we talked to a few tips here. You know, if you take a classic classic

You're sitting at a tie one of these classic flies and you're sitting there ready to tie in the tail or the tag or something it Do you have a couple of tips maybe some general tips flight time that come to mind that could help somebody tie a butterfly.

Fred 58:14

watch videos.

There's there's little tips

Dave S 58:22
that you can get which video somebody which videos do you like, do you have? I mean, are you do you have a certain person or two that you follow? Or do you just kind of watch a little bit of everything?

Fred 58:34
Oh, well, I started tying a lot of stuff with our videos.

I think David macphails is a wonderful resource. He's so good. He's He's a master fly tire and he knows all the little tricks and he makes it look easy. Yep.

But he explains how he does things so that you can do it easily.

struggling, he's amazing, you know, if you invest some time and in

watching some of some of these guys, it's it's well worth your time and it'll be a lot less frustrating for you once you hit the vice

you know us small thread a lot of people want to start tying classic flies they think

you know they're going to use a six out threat because it's bigger than a whole better small threat grabs material better, it's easier to use

a dot thread.

Yep, it'll grab the it'll grab the

feathers better. Grab the animal for October whatever you using. And without building up bulk is a mistake a lot of beginners make.

I would say if you if you if you tie a fly.

It doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to look at some of the ugliest flies I've ever taught.

work better than some of the real pretty flows I've taught the fish

Dave S 1:00:04
don't look at those specifics on the fly like we do know that we do look at your email on your Instagram we definitely like the other pretty flies there's a I'm looking at one right now I think we I don't know if I mentioned this this is that silver which one was this one? It was the silver oh yeah this is still on the silver stork you got it you got it clipped on your It looks like a glass rod.

Older glass rod Do you got Do you like to fish a lot of the traditional glass or bamboo type of stuff as well? No Yeah.

Fred 1:00:39
Let's fish I started out on all fiberglass rod.

And I still use them fiberglass and in those Matter of fact,

today I I tried a new fly.

Doesn't work on for a good while brown trout Winner Winner pattern because they get pretty finicky in the world.

is clear. They normally slow down and they hit smaller more natural colored flies instead of the colorful flashy stuff. So I kind of little streamer on a size six broke Ben Partridge hook

with red fox for a Mallard with a green tencel body. Small streamer.

I took it down tonight to the creek

with my bamboo route and third cast I had a real pretty well 14 inch 12 pounds.

And that's fine. That's really sad. So sorry, I've

Dave S 1:01:40
been doing so nice. Do you also use you know as far as the flight tying you know, are you what type of ice in Canada? Are you? Do you have a special type you like to use or brand?

Fred 1:01:56
Right I try on Hmh Yeah, okay.

Good company good people. Yep.

Now I do want to say this

there's a lot of different slices I'm more of a traditional so I like to keep things simple with the materials were fish verado us

I'm not a latest and greatest guy but

you don't need a fancy advice to tie flies. You could you could have a cheap

table clip on

price and do really well with it. You know

I tried a lot on virtue vices work really well.

Dave S 1:02:41
You mean like the old the old Thompson a style vices?

Fred 1:02:46
Sure, yeah.

Yeah. But yeah, I totally nature nature. I like it a lot. It's pretty. Yep, functions. Well, yeah. Hold your hook. What's Hmh you know what that stands for?

Dave S 1:03:00
The name of you know, I don't that's the name of the original probably the founder or something maybe his initials. I'll throw a all I'll throw that in the show notes if I can find out what that what that is maybe. Okay.

That's a good question. I'm in the process. I've gone I'm in the process of I've got a few flight time companies. I'm not sure if I'm going to get regal or some of those But yeah, I might get the try to get some of the founders or at least people that are trying to get the history there because it Yeah, there's I mean, Hmh there's regal, Dinah King. I mean, there's probably I don't know there's probably 10 just huge amazing you know what I mean? Like really high quality companies out there.

Yeah, okay. And what about you know, for your I've seen a couple pitches I guess you got so your kids I'm not sure. Do you have some young kids? Are they older?

Fred 1:03:47
We have we have between our kids and

daughter in laws and grandchildren? We have 12 Oh, wow. Really. So we're we have a lot of kids in the family. We love

My second question we all go, my

we enjoy the outdoors we have

we get together at the creek, swim and fishing.

kids go fishing with me.

They love it. We get some exercise and young kids love looking at the lovely.

Dave S 1:04:22
Oh yeah, it's wonderful. It is. Yeah. What kind of thinking bigger bigger picture you know if you were gonna leave one thing with your kids you know something maybe you haven't told them yet about kind of life for I always think of my kids because they're a little younger, you know, stuff that I'm kind of thinking like, Okay, I gotta make sure to tell them. Is there anything you would you know, you could say now that you would be like words of advice stuff that you've learned along the way?

Fred 1:04:49
Well, there's

some simple things in life that bring the most pleasure


I don't think the good things in life are easy. I think sometimes

it takes a little bit of work and discomfort to really get to the good things.

Whether it's family having children.

The Outdoors is a good example. I think being outside and getting away from the screens and yeah, phones and TV and getting and experiencing life for yourself instead of watching people doing it. I know other people do it go out and do it yourself and get out and see. See the streams. I've been outdoors my life I hunt.

Fish trap, right? Yeah. I feel that it's been a very rich lifestyle. I

my sons are both outdoorsman backpackers hunt

our grandkids we want them to be the same because

I get to experience life outside of


Dave S 1:06:02
woods and wildlife and the beauty that you see there. Tall is really, really wonderful. Yes. So you don't have any kids that are I mean, sounds like all your kids who are into the outdoors.

A few of them. Don't do a condo. I just gonna say because it's not I have a brother. It's always it's funny. I've got three older brothers and yeah, one of them just never he likes kind of. Yeah, a little bit of a but he's not as hardcore as the three of us as far as the fishing and stuff like that. But yeah, yeah, it's I think some people aren't into it, but no, it's cool. I'm just kind of scrolling through your feed there and Hey, you got some cool stuff? Definitely. Definitely a little bit, I think.

Fred 1:06:46
Well, I think I think one of the best parts of being an outdoorsman is where a picture. You you.

You wouldn't go to these places unless you had a purpose. If you're fly fishing, and you're

Wild trout pictures of some of the most beautiful places in America. Exactly. Clean streams and mountains and forest. Same with hunting and the outdoors and that's that's valuable to see the person and get the experience that smells the sounds, you know.

Dave S 1:07:18
Good Life toy toy. All right cool. I'm looking at one more. One more photo here the quack doctor another one from plate plate number seven. That's a sweet It's got a bright red with the silver mylar. We're not mylar but just silver body that was a guess a pretty common common fly thing to use rights material back in the day.

Fred 1:07:40
Sure, the mylar well. Actually a lot of a lot of the silver and gold pencils. Was was real metal pencil back in the day when you when you go to the museums. Oh yeah.

You see the bodies look. tarnish, almost black like an old silver

ruminants because it was a real metal. No, no, no, here's my alarm. Oh, that's what it is. So yeah it is mylar right? It's mylar nowadays. It's not actual metal or officially.

Dave S 1:08:12
Cool. All right, Fred. Well, I think that's about it. You know any Well, I guess one more question I had for your camera. What do you are you are you like a cell phone guy? Or do you have a full on photo studio set up to take these beautiful photos?

Fred 1:08:27
Well, thank you. Outdoors I use iPhone. Haha. And in my first 30 I use an iPad Pro. I use iPad.

iPad Pro. Yeah, that's a great macro camera ability. There's a

Dave S 1:08:46
fantastic there's a good reason to get an iPad. I've kind of been thinking like well, it'd be nice little iPad. Well, I think the new iPhone 10 or whatever, or whatever it's called has a pretty cool camera as well.

Fred 1:08:58
Oh yeah.

Dave S 1:09:00
We're getting better, better and better, better and better. That's kind of what they do. Have you seen the new just on technology is kind of funny. Have you seen the new Tesla truck?

Yeah, what do you think good or good or bad? Do you do you like it? Do you like the look of it or not?

Fred 1:09:18
It doesn't appeal to me a lot I can see.

Dave S 1:09:22
I can see the value of an electric car with our premier comic flick like car from Back to the Future. Exactly. Yeah, that's what it looks like. It gets 500 the Lawrence the expensive one, the one I think it's 60,000 or whatever it is. It gets 500 miles on one charge of the battery which is really impressive.

Well, I mean another man told so Cena and actually I think it's not quite out yet. So maybe they don't have the technology but that's what they're talking about. So okay, cool. In in the next six to 12 months, anything new coming up for you or you know, kind of that your stuff, website, anything that you want to note here.

Fred 1:10:02
I'm always working on a website. I just made a major update to it. And

I was really actually surprised at how many flights I have on there. There's over 350 Classic floods butterflies streaming in the classic fly gallery on my website. Wow, I'll be I'll be tying it shows with purchase of

30 flights 35

battery shows throughout the show season fishing.

I've been making videos on

playing classical applies and streamers and how fish them I even do underwater footage of all fours and how how they look in the current which is a lot of fun. Nice.

And I'm I'm working on several articles. The next one that I'm putting out is on the professor with how to hit

How to tie up

Dave S 1:11:04
there you go cool and what's the next show or kind of event you're going to

fly so yeah fly show is that the women are show and what's the closest one to where you're at

Fred 1:11:21
there's there's a shot but like harmony in the Poconos

there's one in Lancaster. Oh yeah.

A lot of them with with some of the time

with for Joe Fox and portrait you brought it

Dave S 1:11:38
to be a lot of fun. Cool right I'll put a I'll put a couple links to some of the some of the events there as well and and if they want to check in with you anybody has questions the grizzly King fly calm is your website best place?

Fred 1:11:52
Yeah. Right to my email, and also my Instagram okay.

Dave S 1:12:01
Perfect. Alright Fred well that's that's all I have for you just want to say thanks for coming on and sharing your, your knowledge here and some of the classic stuff. It's been. It's I love it. I'm just looking at your website here. I'm not sure what part I'm on but you know, all the classic books My dad has been, you know, I mean my he's got all the old classics. So I it brings back some memories, you know, just Yeah, and I think that's part of the show. That's why it's fun to get young. I'm trying to connect some of the dots to the historical piece. And you know, today you've done that and I'm sure a lot of people, those six books just that if they get that out of this show is probably going to change some people's thinking as well. So yeah, I just want to say thanks and we'll keep in touch with you.

Fred 1:12:40
Great, thank you very much.

Dave S 1:12:42
Okay, we'll talk to you soon.

Fred 1:12:45
Thank you, I see you

Dave S 1:12:47
so there you go. If you want to find all the show notes all the links be covered just go to wet fly swing comm slash one to one quick reminder for the big Pyramid Lake fly fishing trip giveaway, just head over to wet fly swing comm

slash giveaway to get all the details for the upcoming trip. Thank you for your support and if you get a chance we'd love for you to subscribe if you haven't already, just head over to wet fly swing comm slash subscribe and check out how to do it. Thanks again for stopping by and check out the show today. I'm looking forward to catching up with you soon hope to maybe see you online or on the river.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:23
Thanks for listening to the wet fly swing fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode visit wet fly swing COMM And if you found this episode helpful, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai


Conclusion with Rick Saez

I had a fun chat with Rick Saez who is the host of the Outdoor Biz Podcast.  We hear what a life in the outdoor industry feels like including what it’s like to lose your job and find the next big thing in the outdoor industry.