Great Lakes Dude #13 | Sight Fishing for Smallmouth and Salmon with Phil Cook – Fishing Tools, Backeddy Sales

Jeff (2s): Welcome to the Wet Fly Swing podcast. Great Lakes. This is your host, Jeff Li. KAKA Great Lakes dude. Well, we’ve had a couple good podcasts. We had Darcy Egan out local plane dealer writer for 50 years, but super stoked to invite a good friend. And one of the fishies guys that I know in and around the Great Lakes lives in Michigan. It’s gonna be Phil and wait till you hear about what he has to say. And Phil Cook has been a long time fishermen in Michigan. He’s been in the fly fishing industry for at least over 30 years that I know of. Jeff (44s): But wait to hear what we have to say. It’s gonna be super fun. We’re gonna talk and get fishy. We’re gonna get down the details more than just talking about it. So welcome to the show, Phil. Phil (55s): Thanks, buddy. Yeah, I appreciate the kind words, man. ’cause you, you’re one of the fish people I know too, so Jeff (1m 1s): That’s how we’re gonna have a good time today, right? Oh, yeah, Phil (1m 4s): Yeah. Always a good time. Yeah. Jeff (1m 6s): Well, why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself, Phil. Like, you know, how you got in fishing when you know, what do you got? Sure. Phil (1m 12s): So, I mean, you know, I was, I was lucky enough to have a family cabin on the Sabel River that I used to go to pretty much every summer. The Sabal River is up in Michigan and near Grayling, Michigan. It’s a Trout river. And every summer I would go there and spend a, a large chunk of time with my grandparents, you know, playing in the swamps around the cabin, catching frogs, catching trout on worms, catching trout on flies, you know, probably getting into some things I shouldn’t. But, but it was, it was really fun and really caught kind of inspiration for, for being around water and at that point in my life, flowing water. So, you know, took that and took some early night fishing experiences with my dad. Phil (1m 57s): And really, I would say that really lit a fire under me for fly fishing and, and, you know, fishing in general, but mainly fly fishing and kind of went from there, you know, started, I think I got my first tying vice when I was eight, tied my first fly, you know, shortly thereafter. And, and, you know, kind of took off from there. I guess my first official job in the fly fishing industry would’ve been tying woolly buggers for a local coffee shop called the Woolly Bugger. No Jeff (2m 28s): Way. Yep. Phil (2m 29s): Yep. And then started tying flies and doing some walking guide trips for a small, now defunct shop out of Petoskey, Michigan. And from there, actually went out west for school. Didn’t really get good enough grades to, to, to stay out there, but, but I will tell you, but I will tell you that, that I learned a lot about trout. I actually got bored with trout in Wyoming, and in the, the summers I would work for a shop called The Fly Factory in Grayling, Michigan, and live at my cabin. And then did that full-time, became a guide full-time there while I was going to school down at Saginaw Valley. Phil (3m 9s): Eventually got my degree in political science and biology with plans to go into environmental law. And during that timeframe, I was working as a guide and then also worked at Little Forks Outfitters in Midland, Michigan. And once I got my degree from Saginaw Valley, I took a year off to kind of gather myself for law school. And the plant manager from Scientific Anglers came down to Little Forks and said, Hey, we wanna bring customer service to Midland, we wanna hire you. So I started working for scientific Anglers and worked there for five and a half years. And then in 2017 started working with a colleague of ours, Jerry Darkes, also a mentor of mine and yours, I guess, you know, and started working as a sub rep for him with plans to take over his rep agency. Phil (4m 0s): Now I operate that rep agency, which is called Back Eddie Sales. And you know, we do Scott Fly rods able reels, Ross reels, airflow, fly lines, Montana, fly echo, fly fishing among, among a bunch of other really nice brands. So Jeff (4m 16s): Yeah, that’s pretty good. That’s how we sort of have our bond is that, you know, I work underneath your umbrella as a pro, but there’s a difference of what I call like business reps and then phish reps. I think you, you balance that very good platform between the two. Like, there’s something to say about phishing reps that are, have gained respect in the industry because when you go to a shop or something, it’s just not like, oh, this is a great, this is a great product. You can say, no, no, I go here, I use this, and they see you there. So I think there’s something to say about that. Don’t you think, Phil, like a a somebody that’s actually on the water, you’re probably on the water 200 days a year one way or another. Phil (4m 60s): Yeah. And yeah, I mean, like, I mean, one of the many things that, that I learned from my dad is to really, like, if you’re going to present something to somebody, whether it’s like a sales thing, like whether it’s a sales item, like a product, or whether it’s an idea, like you should have some conviction in it. And you know, for me, that conviction comes from time on the water and using a product, right? So, so like if I pick up a new brand or there’s a new product that’s brand new, new to me, like I don’t feel fully comfortable recommending the product unless I’ve used it myself and can speak to, you know, its effectiveness or non effectness for that matter. Phil (5m 41s): So, you know, I mean, like, I think that there are guys in the industry that, that are out there to sell mainly. I think there’s guys that are out there in, in the industry just to fish, you know? And I do try to tow that line, you know, sometimes maybe leaning one way or the other, other, but, but I, I really do try to tow that line and, and recommend products that I personally use or, or can recommend with conviction. You know, you’re Jeff (6m 7s): Right, you’re, you’re on the water, you’re testing it. And then I think there’s some, you know, when you go into a shop where you’re talking just a just an average angler, you’re like, Hey, no, no, this is, this is it Like this is the what now this one’s probably not as good as what I, you know, would like it to be, but you know, these are the bullet, like the shining stars of my lineup. Wouldn’t you say something like that? Phil (6m 29s): Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s okay to not like something you are, right. Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s okay to have something in your brand portfolio that maybe doesn’t, doesn’t pass the, the mustard test, you know? And it’s okay to say that. And, and I mean, honestly, it’s, it’s less that than stuff that just doesn’t really cater to our fisheries. You know, like, like for instance, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of products in the fly fishing industry that cater to small flies and long leaders and light tippet. And I mean, I grew up fishing the ble, which is one of the, considered one of the more technical trout rivers in the, you know, at least in my region that I cover. Phil (7m 9s): And the reality is, is that we rarely use flies smaller than a size 18. You know, there’s many trout streams I can think of in Colorado and Wyoming, where, where that’s considered a big fly in 18, or at least a medium sized fly. And, you know, they’re, they’re using flies down to a 24, 26, 28 on a fairly regular basis. Jeff (7m 32s): Well, that’s sort of where I cut my teeth to, right? It was on the Bel Pen rods, you probably remember it. Phil (7m 38s): Oh yeah. It, it was right across the street from Fly Factory where, where I got my start, you know, so, Jeff (7m 42s): Right. Yeah, there cabins that, you know, they, you could drop a marble in the one corner, it would just ping pong its way out the back door, right? Oh, yeah. But, so let’s move on. What is new? What fish are you chasing? Like you’re always on the cutting edge, you’re setting the bar, I think for everybody in your area. Like, Hey, yeah, you got the trout game, you got this. You’re like, Hey, what, what’s on the cutting edge? What’s on your plate now? What are you chasing? Like what are you doing besides the sales stuff? Phil (8m 10s): Yeah, so I mean, it’s, it’s kind of funny that you mentioned trout, right? Because I mean, that that is the root of, you know, my knowledge and, and it’s kind of has transferred and, and transformed into many different avenues, I would feel like at this point. But, but still, one thing fascinates me more than anything else, which is seeing the eat. So I like to see the eat. If I get to see the fish before the eat, it’s even better, right? So, so I think that that really stems from my love of dry fly fishing. But at this point, I almost don’t care. I almost don’t care that much what the stripes or spots or, you know, the shape of the fish or even the species of the fish as much as I care about the situation. Phil (8m 59s): And, and what I mean by that is I wanna be able to see the fish before I cast. Okay? So if that’s a fish eating dry flies great. If that’s a carp mudding on a, on a big sand flat, also great. If that’s schools of, of cohos swimming down a beach, awesome. You know, I don’t, I don’t weight those any differently as better or worse. But if I get to see the fish before I cast, you know, or see like a blow up like blitzing bait fish or whatever it is, that’s what I’m most passionate about. You know, the second thing that I, I just absolutely love doing is fishing flies over and around structure, you know, so streamer fishing, and those are really, I would say my two favorites. Phil (9m 43s): But my big disclaimer with, with that and picking and choosing what I like to do is there’s no kind of fishing, I don’t like fly or conventional. There’s only kinds of fishing that I like more than others. Jeff (9m 57s): Yeah, right. I think we’ve covered this before, you know, that I think a great fly angler has to have an open mind and understanding conventional gear as much as fly, right? I mean, I think when me and you go out, if the wind’s blowing, I, I’m gonna be honest, we’re not throwing a fly rod. We’re gonna do the research, but then, you know, if the wind dies or we’ll fight the wind as best we can, but that is the key of understanding to be a great fly angler, is understanding how to manipulate the fly to imitate what the conventional gear anglers can do. Way better than us. Wouldn’t you say? Phil (10m 36s): Absolutely. I think it’s, I think there’s a bunch of crossover for that. And, and once you kind of migrate outside of the rivers and start fishing big water with some depth, you begin to understand that, that, you know, only fishing, only limiting yourself to the top 10 or 15 feet of the water column is eliminating a whole lot of possibility. And, and once you, once that gets drilled into your head, you start thinking about ways to get deeper, both of flying conventional and then crossing over the two, right? And, and some of the best flies that I can think of off the top of my head actually came from trying to imitate a lure. You know, anything with lead eyes jig anything like Tommy’s drunken disorderly is designed to be like a sha wrap, like a jointed rapa, right? Phil (11m 26s): So, you know, I mean, a lot of, a lot of the best flies that I can think of, I know a couple that, that imitate tube jigs for instance, are actually just, you know, our best version, our best possible version of a, of a lure, you know, or bait that’s been used for, for years and years, Jeff (11m 43s): Right? I mean, the Great Lakes, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I mean between Russ Madden, you know, and Tommy Lynch, I mean the articulating, floating fly, and then this, you know, with Tommy Drunken historically, then you’ve got, you know, Russ Madden of course was like the first, you know, one of the first with the articulating fly and you’ve got Kelly Gallup. This seems like our geographic area was pretty on the cutting edge of these flies, wouldn’t you think? I don’t know that, but I mean, and correct me if I’m wrong, Phil (12m 13s): So, so I would say yes, and I, you know, I think that, I think that that, that comes from, from necessity, really, I think innovation is, is bred from necessity. And I think that that, you know, like you look at a circus peanut, right? And, and one of my at Russ is a good buddy of mine, but I mean, like one of my favorite things that he said, I’m like, where’d you come up with the idea for a circus peanut? He said, well, I just put two of the best flies that were ever invented back to back the wooly bugger, you know? Right. A d and DI think can take quite a lot of, you know, like the d and d can take some, some, some, I guess the roots, the roots of that would be a zoo cougar. Phil (12m 54s): And the roots of the zoo cougar are a muddler minnow mixed with like the old version, the old flat wing, gray ghost, right? So these are all, like, all these flies are derivatives of something that came before it. It’s not, it’s not like, you know, Russ or Kelly or Tommy just sat down at a vice and whipped up this thing without, without any prior knowledge of any prior flies. You know, what they did is they, they improved an existing pattern. And in, in the case of Michigan, our forage is generally bigger, okay? Because, because a lot of our trout streams are on the cusp of being too warm. So like, our crayfish are bigger, our mayflies are bigger, our bait fish are bigger, you know, and to imitate a bigger bait, you had to put it on two hooks, right? Phil (13m 41s): Because if you only put it on the single hook, the fish would eat the back half of the fly inevitably and not get hooked, you know? And there’s another good good Russ story where he had Mark sad in the boat, okay? And the sad slammer is a single hook in the front, in the head of the hook, and it’s got these big long tails. And, and Russ tells me like, he’s like, mark brought that fly here. And it was like, fish had never seen anything like it, you know, he had like a bunch of fish eat this fly, but for whatever reason, they didn’t, like, they weren’t getting hooked because they were eating midway through the fly instead of right at the head of the hook. Like a striper would, you know, it was just what he designed them for. Phil (14m 23s): So he took, took the slammer, modified it a little bit, made it a little bit lighter, set the hook back, and that’s where like the flash monkey came from, right? So I mean, there’s, you know, when you talk about all these fly patterns that, that people know and love today, they’re almost always derivatives of something that came before it, Jeff (14m 42s): Right? Everybody says, oh, you know, what’s your patterns? I says, my pattern is just window dressing on another one, right? It’s just like, there’s always something that goes, goes on. It’s like, okay, I had more weight, I take this off, it sinks more, whatever. But it’s all about, like you said, that base fly. But, so we talked a little bit about that sable net. Let’s dig into, ’cause a lot of, a lot of anglers aren’t aware of how great and how many locations there are in and around Michigan in the Great Lakes from the Upper Peninsula, which is like another state in itself, right? To New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania. And on the Canadian side too, that needs to be explored. Jeff (15m 23s): But maybe you could just say, Hey, where would an angler like wants to explore the Great Lakes are, you know, where would they be? Like, what’s a good location? Like, maybe just give ’em some like, okay, this is what you’re sort of looking for, Phil (15m 35s): Google Earth. Jeff (15m 37s): Okay. Wow. Yeah. Phil (15m 38s): Great. Yeah. I mean, you know, you like certain predator fish are gonna use like hard edges, right? So you can actually locate a lot of this stuff on Google Earth and walk into it where there’s hard edges and those predator fish try to push bait fish up on the hard edges, right? Okay. You find you use Google Earth for that. You use Google Earth to find the flats that you want to go fish, right? Whether they’re like little rock spits where small mouth and drum might hang out, or big sand flats that carp would use. You can use it for a variety of different or different items, both whether you’re on foot or in a boat, you know, once you do have access to like a big water boat, then you can start looking at like topographic maps, Navi, OnX, your Garmin, you know, hummingbird Laurent units, whatever you have, you know, those become a lot more helpful. Phil (16m 30s): But in terms of just like the foot soldiers out there, just looking at Google Earth and taking a chance will pay off a lot, Jeff (16m 38s): Right? I can’t tell you how many times that I, the first day when I get to a new area that I really don’t even, we a line, I do the Mafia drive by, right? Oh yeah. You just, oh yeah. Like you, you see something on Google Earth or Onyx or whatever, whatever. You’re using the platform, it’s like, okay, this is the area I want to, I wanna fish. And then you look at it, it’s like, it doesn’t turn out to what it really wants to be. So you move around and then you, I guess it would be like, prove that that’s viable for me to fish. And you might make it like, okay, I gotta stop there. Right? Okay, perfect. Phil (17m 11s): Right. And, and a lot of times, like, like what happens is, is you’ll have a list, right? And then, and then like, and then like you’re, the weather just turns to complete dog, you know, dog crap, you know? And then you’re like, all right, I’m gonna go and I’m just gonna scout today. And, and I mean, like, I, I mean, I probably have six to 10 of those days a year where I’ll go and just like, drive, you know, the kids are at school, whatever, like drive for six hours, go check out a few different accesses that I had marked and then just put ’em in the storage bank. You know, I’ve used some of those. I haven’t used some of ’em, you know, at this point. But, you know, I think that that’s important. If, if, if somebody is really adamant about learning new water and learning new techniques and all that kind of stuff. Phil (17m 55s): I think that that scouting element is as important as any other element in that, you know, in that portfolio. 2 (18m 3s): Patagonia just launched the next evolution in waiters, and they’re built for anglers just like you. The Swift current line includes ultralight, packable options for the hiking crew and expedition ready waiters. 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But you know, there’s another thing with the visual confirmation, like you said, is that we want clear enough water for this, you know, for the SIDS and the steelhead and the small mo to see our fly, but we still still wanna have that little bit of mystery to it so they really bite. Good. So there’s that fine window of sometimes we have these five or six melt runs that we have that we’re looking for that that sweet spot of water. Is that what you’re sort of looking for to, is that little bit of mystery that’s not crystal clear? Phil (19m 42s): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and, and the great thing about the Great Lakes is, and maybe the maddening thing is, is that, you know, even on what feel like identical days, you know, whether, whether like a s moves in and, and like the water moves out and then all of a sudden the water you were fishing that was 68 degrees drops to, you know, 50 degrees. I’ve had that happen. I’ve had literally the same exact conditions two days apart. One day we slam small mouth and then two days later they’re gone. Jeff (20m 14s): Do the, when the water cools, do the mountains move in then? Phil (20m 18s): Yeah, a lot of times in those same spots. But I mean, like, like it’s when, when you’re dealing with open water in the Great Lakes, like it is unpredictable, you know, and, and you really have to start each day with essentially a new puzzle to solve, right? Like, you can’t go and, and plant, I mean, you can go and use that as a starting point, but you can’t go and beat up on the same fish you did 2, 3, 4 days prior, let alone a couple weeks prior. You know, most likely they’ve moved, most likely the situation has changed. And you gotta refigure figure everything out, Jeff (20m 55s): Right? And I think that would be, as you know, your son’s in tournaments, you fish tournaments, I fish tournaments. It’s the angler that can figure the puzzle out the fastest, right? Right. So like sometimes as a fishing guide, we don’t figure it out to almost the end of the day, right? But if you’re out the next day, it sort of like shortens a learning curve. But that’s the, I think that’s the major stumbling block that the weekend warriors, like, they wanna expect to go there and they expect to catch that day. Well, that’s the difference between a fishing guide who spends 200 and some days on the water that believe me, we get skunked. Oh yeah, we get skunked, but we have days that we don’t get skunked because we are learning from those days that we get skunked. Jeff (21m 40s): So that’s pretty important. Let’s narrow it down to, maybe let’s talk a little bit about the smallmouth. I mean, everybody, you know, the ditch pickles we get beat up ’cause because we love ’em, but that is our bread and butter. They love to eat chicken. Fs. Maybe just talk a little bit about the smallmouth. Phil (21m 56s): Yeah, I mean, smallmouth are, are fascinating native species to Midland and the Great Lakes, you know, I mean, they bike good, they fight good, they’re hardy. You can, I mean, I fished ’em in like gin clear water where they’re super spooky and they’re on the fin like in New Zealand, I fished ’em where you cast anything within 30 feet of ’em out in, out on a Great Lakes flat and they’ll eat it. I’ve seen them incredibly, incredibly receptive to eating. I’ve seen ’em be real difficult too. They just have this, this just huge variability and really a tendency to, to drawing on patterns that makes ’em fun to fish for, right? Phil (22m 40s): So, you know, you can, you can like, you can go through the variables, you can go through the checkbox and like figure out what the trigger points are and then you can put together a really good day because they are patentable, you know? And, and the other thing that’s really fascinating about smallmouth is how much they migrate, right? So in the Great Lakes, like I said, you know, I, I’ve been like here today, gone tomorrow type situations with smallmouth for sure. I’ve also been here today, here tomorrow type stuff, and here the next day too, you know, but, but generally speaking in the Great Lakes, like I rarely see a pattern last for more than a couple weeks, Jeff (23m 18s): Right? Phil (23m 20s): And then you can couple that up with, with the migrations in the river, right? They migrate from way up river miles, miles and miles downstream. And we have 30, 40, 50, 60 miles up downstream to fall winter in early spring water. And then they, they do it all again. They migrate back up into the rivers to where their, their feeding stations are spend, you know, ladder spring, summer, and early fall in those areas and migrate right back. Jeff (23m 49s): You know, we just had a presentation here in Ohio where they’re actually doing some pit tagging and location of small mouth and they found out that, you know, the spring spawners of course run up the rivers and then they go back out. But there is definitely the river runners that doesn’t seem to migrate too far from the rivers along the Great Lakes, but there are some that show that, you know, those never run up the river. That’s how mother need to protect themselves. But those are those ones that I struggle to really get a pattern on, like you said, right? I mean, in this is something about fly fishing is that, you know, because we, me and you both have a boat and there are times that those pelagic fish, they’re 28 to 30 some feet deep. Jeff (24m 30s): But there are gonna be, wouldn’t you think there’s always a, for the angler that doesn’t have all the bougie stuff that me and you have, is there, there’s always a resident population within for the foot soldier, like you said, don’t you think? Phil (24m 43s): Yes. But you know, I think that, I mean, if you’re willing to wait chest deep, you know, you know, I mean like, you’re not always gonna be able to find him in the super shallow stuff you can sometimes, but more often than not, you know, you’ve, you gotta be willing to do that. And then, and then, you know, you can almost always pick off a few in the rip rap like around piers, like around, you know, jetties, that kind of stuff. You guys have actually a wonderful Lakeshore down here around Cleveland that I’ve, that I’ve kind of explored a little bit with you. We have less of that in Michigan, but you know, that kind of stuff almost always holds fish, whether it’s bass drum, catfish, you know, I mean name your flavor of the day, but, but that rip rap almost always holds some sort of fish. Phil (25m 29s): So, you know, I mean that’s, that’s easily walkable before or after work, you know, an hour or two here or there, you know? Jeff (25m 35s): Yeah, I mean, I just got back from Toronto with Drift Outfitters, who’s their shop’s right in downtown Toronto. They got a beautiful harbor there, over 5 million people there. And they’ve got a vibrant fishery that you could just basically get out in the downtown Toronto area Right on, you know, right. On Lake Ontario. And that they got a viable fishery, like you said. Is it? I think it’ll be the Giants probably not, but there’s still plenty of opportunities for the foot soldier too. But Phil (26m 4s): Our I’ve heard Chicago’s like that too. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I mean like lower, like Southern Lake Michigan, I mean, there’s, there’s spots where you can walk in down there. And I can tell you that for me personally, I’ve walked in down there and seen some huge drum and carp that would be accessible on the fly. You just gotta put the time in and, and you know, put the miles in and, and I mean, you can find some stuff in your backyard that is pretty cool. Jeff (26m 27s): Right. And I think, let’s look at this. Like, let’s just say we’re gonna be a foot soldier, and I think that me and you, we have ants in our pants and we’re looking for moving water, right? That’s what’s, we’re gonna find some active fish. But if you’re going to be that along, you know, without a boat, you have to be mobile, right? Like, you might hit six or eight different areas in that harbor just to find the fish. I mean, what you think is like, I have so many people that just take the spoon, they go out there, they cast the same spot, they don’t get, they leave, but you gotta be mobile, right? Phil (26m 60s): Oh, absolutely. I, I mean it’s probably the most critical thing is being willing to, to, or being willing to move. And, you know, I mean like, you can even relate that to some of the rivers, like some of the undammed rivers that I fish for steelhead. You know, for a while there I was, I was pretty adamant about floating. I still enjoy floating those rivers, but you know, if you float a stretch on an Undammed river and there’s no fish there, you’re gonna have a tough day. But I mean, if you are walking in and you fish a couple holes, don’t get anything, and then move 20 miles up river or down river, you can get into ’em, right? And you’re more mobile. Or let’s say that river, you know, isn’t even fishing. Phil (27m 42s): You can drive 45 minutes away to a different river and see if there’s fish in there. And you know, I mean, I think that people are quick to, quick to say, oh, well, you know, people with boats have all the, like, they’re gonna get ’em because they have boats. But, but sometimes being on foot, you know, makes you slow down. It makes you observe a little bit more and, and in turn be more successful in some cases. So, Jeff (28m 7s): Right. I mean, they can go on the foot or in your vehicle, you could go from port to port where for a boat angler you gotta relaunch, relocate, which we do do if it things are bad. But I might be able to hit, and you might be able to hit three locations in a day, right? Oh, Phil (28m 25s): Yeah, yeah. Sometimes more. I mean, you know, and I have, Jeff (28m 29s): So let’s talk a little bit, you know, the small mob bass, that’s, that’s one of our passions. But I think the hidden gem, which has been a fishery that’s been starting to develop, and you’re right on the cutting edge of this, is the cohos that are being reintroduced to Michigan and then also the Atlantic salmon. Let’s talk a little bit about that. You know, you don’t have to give away any secrets, but let’s, let’s, you know, just chit chat a little bit about that. Phil (28m 56s): Well, I mean it’s, I think it’s pretty commonly known at this point that the state of Michigan is, has wanted to, you know, bring Atlantic salmon in the fold and for that matter, even co-host Salmon, simply more into the fold with the collapse of the kings and Lake Huron and, and to a lesser degree, certainly Lake Michigan. And, you know, there was a lot of crying going on about, about, you know, the disappearance of the kings, you know, for better, for better or worse. The Atlantics are awesome, they’re cool, you know, I was, I was lucky enough to, I caught him on a, a small East side river in the, the early 20 2010s, you know, like, I think 2011 or 2012, and then found him below foot on the ble, which was like kind of the first major one that where the, where the DNR Michigan DNR had planted them. Phil (29m 49s): And we found out the eight streamer really good, you know, in clear water sometimes off the surface, you know. So that was a really cool discovery. It’s, it’s, you know, it’s gotten more people, but, but you know, it’s pretty easy to look up the stocking records on Michigan and see where those Atlantics are stocked and give you a good idea of where to go. You know, one of my, one of my, I think, big pushes for the spring is to really figure out the, the springtime Atlantic fishery. That’s one that I haven’t really, I haven’t really dialed in yet. We have caught some cohos so far the spring. But the springtime coho Fisher is pretty well known, especially on the west side of the state. Phil (30m 31s): The springtime Atlantic fishery is, is something that’s new. And, you know, rather exciting to me because as I had mentioned, you know, Atlantics and Cohos were kind of a replacement for Kings after they, they dropped off. And the big thing for Atlantics and coho that they have in common is they tend to eat invertebrates. They eat stuff other than Alewife, right? So they’ll eat smelt, they’ll eat shad, they’ll eat, they’re very, very much opportunistic feeders as our steelhead. And whereas kings were solely like strictly eating ale life. So what that does is it, it opens up all these different doors that you could possibly, you know, catch coho or Atlantics on. Phil (31m 15s): Like, you could hypothetically get ’em on dry flies. You could hypothetically, you know, you could get ’em on, you could get ’em on a small, a small like rabbit strip, you know, type honker. You could get ’em on, you know, these big smelt type patterns, right? I mean, you could, like, there’s just, there’s so much variability that it makes ’em more fun than kings. ’cause kings you’re just fish in one fly, right? Or, or one bait. It imitates an ale life. So, you know, like, like for instance, this year I was fishing 15 feet of water a couple miles from this, from this one port that I, I frequently launched at last fall. Phil (31m 58s): And, and there were, there were rainbows out there, right? Well, they just started planting rainbows in the last like, three or four years. And there were rainbows out in 15 feet of water blitzing bait, right? Like striper style coming out of the water, like, like dolphins, right? I mean, it was, it was sick, right? It was super cool. And I had flies and I mean, the first day skunked, you know, second day I went out there, I mean, I had a couple follow to the boat, right? Second day I went out there, I got one. And actually I was with Jake Wright when I was out there and I got one. And then, and then I slowly begin to begin to figure it out. And I think the last couple days before they, they got outta there, I think the water temps got too cold. Phil (32m 42s): But the last couple days, you know, we were up in like that 14 to 15 fish hookup and you know, it was a process of dialing it in. It was a process of figuring out the size of the forage. It was a process of figuring out when to cast, how to cast, you know, figuring out if you could see which direction the fish were going to and they were blitzing, all that kind of stuff. And you know, it took some days, it took some time, but eventually we got to the point where we could go there and, and put together a consistent, you know, positive day. Jeff (33m 12s): Right? I mean, the last time I did it, I was, fishing flies way too big. Yeah. And I think the spring thing, like you’re talking about with these Atlantics are that because they’re not oriented to the spawn, and it’s like the spring, I think that’s gonna be the next level for us to like really ex, you know, really score around those fish because they’re gonna be in there. Like the cohos not thinking about the spawn. They’re gonna be in there to just do their main thing, just chow down. But maybe talk about like downsizing. ’cause that’s what I saw was more like smaller buggier flies rather than, like you would think, like you said, they’re very opportunistic and Atlantis can get pretty finicky, don’t you think? Phil (33m 53s): Oh, yeah. And I mean, you know, most of my stuff was maybe the length of like length of the diameter of a quarter. Right? Okay. Yeah. So I mean, it was small. Jeff (34m 3s): You might wanna say that one more time. Yeah, yeah. Phil (34m 5s): I mean, I mean it was like, it was like one to two inches in length essentially. Right. You know, and light, I mean, really small and then fished on light line too, which is key. But you know, like eight pound, eight to 10 pound test generally. Jeff (34m 18s): Yeah. I mean, so Atlantics are really cool. They’re great fish and they are, they will eat chicken feathers, but you should probably really think about, there are salmon still, they’re not as easy as the rainbow, you know, steelhead, they’ll just keep attacking. But you do have to like line down and do some, do some research on like maybe if you’re not getting them and you can see them. Right? Definitely with first step would be to line down and then maybe do the smaller fly. Is there any certain colors, you know? Phil (34m 49s): No, mostly dark, dark, you know, any, anything in dark tones. But, but I, I will say, and just add to that, like I, I had a bunch of situations this year where the rainbows were really selective too, you know, I mean, you can call ’em like they’re, you know, I was calling ’em rainbows. There’s like, they’re the same thing as, you know, what we would call steelhead. I mean, they, they come in near shore and, you know, they were picky. You know, they would not eat a bigger, a bigger, you know, hair jig or, or fly. They were eating small stuff, you know, in that one to two inch class. So, I mean, you know, my, my only theory behind it really is that there must have just been an overload of that size bait around, you know, and that’s what the fish were, were tuned into seeing. Phil (35m 33s): I see it with trout, you know, really picky trout and they only eat one type of bug or one size bug. It was very, very similar out in big water. Jeff (35m 41s): Was the water really super clear when that happened? Or was it No. Okay. So that’s usually, that’s what my go-to would be. It’s like if the water got a little mystery to a little chalk to it or something, the wind’s been blowing and disturbed it, and you’re on that. Like, okay, this is the day we got the perfect disturbed water, but sometimes they just want to match the hatch. Phil (36m 1s): Yeah, it was, it was in, it wasn’t what I would call stained like Ohio stained, you know, because Ohio stained is pretty stained. But no, I mean, you know, it, it, there was a little bit of stain to the water. Like I was surprised that they were eating that small forage. Jeff (36m 17s): Yeah. So if you’re not, if you haven’t tried it, Michigan is a great place to, I would say probably easiest to catch an Atlantic salmon from the St. Mary’s river all the way down through Huron. Currently, there’s only very few on Lake Michigan, correct? It’s just mostly Huron. Phil (36m 33s): Yeah. But there are some inland lakes in Michigan that get ’em. Okay. And, and they grow large. Okay. You know, like they grow, they grow over 20 pounds and there are some really good site fishing opportunities there. And I mean, I would, I would just, I would urge, you know, any listeners out there to really look at what the stocking records are, utilize those and you know, like fish around blakely areas, you know, whether it’s a, a river outlet, you know, a big gravel bar in a, in a lake of sand. I mean, whatever it is, you know, use, use your existing knowledge to, to seek it out. Jeff (37m 10s): Okay. So now we know that we’ve had a decline in the kings, and then there are some super nice kings have been coming back. Is it throwing a fly to king still viable, I mean, right? Oh yeah. Yeah. Right. Phil (37m 22s): Yeah. I mean it’s, it’s, in my opinion, it’s the best streamer fishing we got. Right. And, and what, what I mean by streamer fishing is, is casting a structure and watching a fish pop up outta structure and chase your fly down. And why is it the best? Right? You’re talking about a 15 to 30 pound fish doing, you know, essentially cartwheels and opening and closing its mouth behind your fly. And I mean, it’ll put your poop in a groove is all I’m saying. You know, and I mean, like, when they, when they chase it 30, 40, 50 feet and then eat next to your boat, it’s, it’s, it’s something, I mean, you just, we don’t have that. Phil (38m 3s): And then I always tell people, I think it’s the hardest thing that we have on the streamer because, you know, I understand, I, and I understand and know that muskie are hard, right? In terms of the numbers and stuff. I would, I would say kings are probably right in there, you know, like similar numbers. One a day is great, that’s a great day, but the fight from a king is what sets ’em apart. Oh yeah. You know? Oh yeah. Because I mean, you hook one and it’s, you’re, you got 10% done, you know, you, you got 90% more to go. You gotta keep ’em out of the wood. You gotta, you know, I mean like fly lines blow up on those things, you know, like, like, like I’ve had ’em, I’ve had ’em eat a crank bait in half. Phil (38m 44s): I’ve had ’em, you know, I mean, like, they are, they are, I think that they’re the baddest, baddest fish that swims in the lakes and you know, in Michigan and, and really in over in New York and, and some of the other like really king heavy lakes, they’ve gotten this bad reputation and I think they get a bad reputation ’cause of the people that fish for ’em, you know, I was since, shouldn’t say I guess the people that fish for ’em, but the methods that are used to fish for ’em and have been like the snagging, the flossing, all that kind of stuff. I mean, to me, they’re one of the baddest fish that swims. I’ve never seen a fish move as fast as a king. I have never had a fish pull as hard as I’ve had a, a king pull in fresh water. Jeff (39m 25s): Yeah. I mean that is, that is our titan of the all the fish that we chase. I did notice one thing stripping streamers. You’re in a river and you’ve got this, you know, you’ve got the, the posse that’s in the wood, or you’ve got the main, main pod that’s in the, the gut, right? Okay. There’s 20 to whatever 30 in there. Those don’t bite, but you get those little stragglers that are coming on the inside bend. There might be one, two, or three that are away from the pack. Those seem to be the ones that I can get to grab. Phil (39m 55s): Yeah, I would say that’s true. And then, and then, I mean, the, the most likely of streamer spots I would argue for pretty much just about any fish that I’ve ever streamer fished for is almost always in the top or the tail out of the pool, right? Like right when the, the, not, not even where you can’t see the bottom at the top of a pool, but like where you can like kind of make out the bottom before the second drop. A lot of times they come off of that stuff and then tail outs and it’s like, it’s like, there, there have been days where I’m almost like we should just skip the gut of the pool. Right. You know, like whether we’re, whether we’re fishing salmon or bass or whatever, you know, because all the bites are coming from the top or the bottom or like you like the aforementioned, you know, kind of intermediate water in between. Phil (40m 40s): Yeah. 2 (40m 43s): Step into the world where the river whispers and the fishing is nothing short of legendary. This year I ventured into the heart of Eastern Idaho’s Yellowstone Teton territory where the fish were larger than life and the waters held the secrets of the best fly fishing out West Yellowstone Teton territory is not just a location, it’s a gateway to adventures that will etch themselves into your memory with crystal clear rivers like the Henry’s Fork and the South Fork of the Snake, and enough lakes to keep you going all year long. Make your way to Yellowstone Teton territory and embark on a journey to one of North America’s finest fly fishing destinations. Whether you’re planning your trip now or just dreaming it up, the YTT is where those dreams turn into reality. 2 (41m 25s): Remember Yellowstone Teton territory, that’s Teton, T-E-T-O-N. It’s time to experience eastern Idaho for yourself and support this podcast at the same time. Jeff (41m 38s): You know, these are the gl, these are the glamor fish. But I know that, you know, whatever’s on the cutting edge, Phil, you seem to always manage to like be diving in headfirst. So after last year’s, and we’re gonna switch really big gears here from Samans over to something that’s not sort of in the Great Lakes, but I really need to ask this question to you. Yeah. So last year, Cicada Hatch right? Was crazy. It’s coming again. What are you thinking? Phil (42m 8s): Oh, I mean, I’ll be there. I mean that’s, you know what I mean? That’s, that’s about that, you know, Jeff (42m 16s): Where’s it gonna be, man? Like, Phil (42m 17s): What’s, so, so, I mean, you know, it’s gonna be Tennessee, Southern Ohio, Southern Indiana, Kentucky. So I mean, I call on the states of Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky. Right. So I will have a good place dialed in. I mean, I think, I think the last time I was here with you in, in February, I think I was scouting some spots. Still scouting some spots, but yeah, I mean, it, it’s really everything, everything that I love about fly fishing, you know, it’s dry fly fishing, you’re catching big fish. It’s all sight fishing. It’s, it’s weird, you know, I mean it’s, you know, you know, like the, I mean, cicada camp, right? Phil (42m 58s): That I did in 2024 was, was an experience. I mean, we had, I think 23 attendees from all over the country. We had the owner of Montana Fly and the sales manager came out, the two owners of Ray Jeff Sports, which who owns, you know, echo fly fishing and airlock came out. And then I had several dealers from my territory join us at an Airbnb. And I could spot in this, because it’s gonna be 17 years until it happens again then, but spot. But it was, but it was, it was on Decatur Lake in Illinois. Okay. Which, you know, you do a little bit of research, you find out it has the, the highest amount of carp per acre of any lake in the entire state of Illinois. Phil (43m 44s): And it also happened to be where the convergence of a 13 year and a and a 17 year cicada hatch, they were both coming off at the same time. And I can only describe Decatur as maybe the, the corn processing capital of the world. And it, it actually smelled like it. Right. So, so Russ Madden actually pointed this out, but, but the capitol building did look like an ear of corn. There was a horrible smell, a horrible smell coming from a factory over like one section of the lake. You know, I think, I think I also heard from him that it, you know, it smelled like, like death and fried chicken I think or something, you know, so, so, but anyway, it was, it was, was an odd smell. Phil (44m 32s): But, you know, that lake was unbelievable. You had these trees that, that overhung the lake and were dropping cicada and, and carp were just cruising down these banks like tarpon. And I mean, 30, 40, 50 fish days, you know, on, you know, eight generally like average eight to 12, eight to 15 pound fish with some bigger right on this lake. So then that lake was a reservoir on the Sangamo River and below the Sanga, below the dam on the Sangamo River, where tons of common carp, which we were catching up, up above in Decatur Lake, but also grass carp and Asian carp, one of which jumped in my boat when I was on plane. Phil (45m 17s): But, but that’s right, that’s a story for a different day. But Jeff (45m 21s): Did you have the Viking hat on? Phil (45m 23s): No, no, no. Actually I had Jared May from, from Kling, he was in the boat and the thing like narrowly missed, it was a narrow miss, you know what I mean? Like, it was inches, it was, you know, and yeah, the sink flopped in the boat, you know, and like, like crapped all over, you know, So yeah, it was, it was, it wasn’t the best experience, but, but they, it, that river was full of grass carp too. And those grass car were very surface oriented, so they were munching down cicada. Right. So, and it, it flowed through like a very untouched section of, of, you know, the world. Okay. So the Sanon River was like being in the, in the jungle, right. Phil (46m 4s): There were no houses near the shore or anything. I mean, it was, it was beautiful. And, you know, seeing the difference between Decatur Lake, which was, you know, like pretty, like, I mean there, there were like really nice houses all around it, everything like that. And then seeing the, the, the difference between the Sangamo, which is really untouched earth was pretty cool, you know, and, and really unexpected. And that’s, that’s kind of the best part about the cicada hatch is, is it happens in different spots year after year, after year. So like, you’re fishing something new, you know, you’re fishing something new every time. Right? Like this year, one of my goals would be to try to find some stripers, eating cicada, you know, some freshwater Jeff (46m 47s): Stripers. Oh, see, you’re always on the cutting edge. I Phil (46m 51s): Can feel it. I may or may not find that. I might find a dozen car, dozens of car beaten, I mean, whatever, you know. But, but what I have found, and the big commonality between all this, there’s only one fish I’ve found that won’t eat cicada. And that’s those Asian carp, ah, the, like the big head carp, not the grass carp, but the, the, the ones with like the, the loaf set eyes, you know, like the ones that people are real fearful of getting in the Great Lakes. They do not eat the cicada. Jeff (47m 18s): Okay, well if you’re not thinking about it, you might wanna do some research and check out the cicada hatch. This is gonna be probably not our last chance, but it’s gonna be a really good chance this coming year, correct? Phil (47m 34s): Oh, yeah, yeah. And it’s a, it’s a big territory. Okay. Right. So, I mean, some of these broods are they, they hatch in a very small, small territory this year it’s gonna be fairly widespread and cover a bunch of different watersheds. And I mean, there’s some really good maps of the last emergence, which would’ve been I think 2008. ’cause it’s a 17 year brood. So, you know, where they emerged in 2008 is very likely where they’re gonna emerge in 2025. Jeff (48m 4s): Well, I’m hoping to join you, but mostly I’ll be like, probably deep into guiding. 4 (48m 10s): You never know, man. I’ll, I’ll try to, I might, I might come and kidnap you. Yeah, that’s good. Yeah. Yeah. Jeff (48m 15s): Let’s, you know, we’re gonna shift gears, you know, we’re gonna, we gotta keep moving on here. Me and you could talk for hours. But let’s, let’s talk a little bit, you and myself, both who’ve been involved with Scott Rods, echo rods, you know, let’s talk a little bit about what’s going on in the, in the rod business. The reels are pretty good. You know, you’re with Ross and Abel, they’re like our platform of go-to saltwater freshwater. But let’s chit chat a little bit about rods. I mean, you know, we’re gonna move and switch gears a lot. Let’s chitchat a little bit about rods. Phil (48m 47s): Sure. So I mean, you know, for me, I think that people start to get caught up in like, well, I own more than three fly rods. Right? Or, or whatever it is, right? I mean, you and I hear this all the time. So what I would challenge all the listeners out there to do is go and watch even just 15 minutes of a bass tournament and tell me how many rods they have on the deck of their boat. And you know, the reality is, is that they probably have 10 on the deck of their boat and probably another 20 to 30 under the deck of their boat. And they are using those rods. They might not use all those rods every day, but oftentimes they’re using, you know, six to eight to 10 of those rods in a single day to cover water and cover different applications. Phil (49m 35s): Now, all that said, there are cheat codes to being able to fish rivers and stuff like that. But I can guarantee you that, like for instance, some of the stuff that we are had already addressed in the, the pod, like, like for instance, casting a rip wrap, you’re gonna want a different line in a different rod than you, than you’re using fishing for, you know, trout dry fly fishing. Right? You know, you, you need to, you need to have the right tool for the job. And like with, you know, obviously Scott with Echo now air light, like each one of those rod companies, you know, are designing tools to, to meet a specific need. Phil (50m 20s): And I’ll give you an example of that, right? So Scott originally, I think they’re, I think they’re the original, if not I, I would be mistaken, but I’m, I’m pretty sure the original, they’re the original US made rod company that came out with an eight foot four inch rod. Right? So those eight foot four inch rods, you know, according to, according to like Jim Barce, ’cause I’ve asked ’em about it, you know, they were, they were actually, especially in like the 10 weight designed for pulling up sounding fish off the bottom. But a secondary purpose of those eight four rods that I would argue they’re even better at than that is casting the short headlines of today. Phil (51m 3s): So like the, the integrated shooting head table type lines, the sa titan, the airflow sniper, the Rio outbound, right. Those short rods are uniquely suited to, to cast those short headlines, or I’m sorry, the shorter rods, the eight foot four inch rods are uniquely suited to cast those shooting head type lines. Jeff (51m 24s): We proved it just about an hour and a half ago, right? Right. We were just out yanking on him. Yeah. Stretching some string out in the grass here before we got in here. Right. And you don’t have to have a long route duty duty, do you? Phil (51m 39s): No, no. And, and I mean actually I would, I would argue a shorter rod is, is super nice to, because, you know, eight inches or 10 inches of graphite, whatever it is, or fiberglass in some cases doesn’t seem like a lot. But if you’re waving that around all day, right, and you’re doing repetitive casting stream or fishing, whether it’s to structure or out in open water, whatever it is, like by the end of the day, it makes a difference on the amount of fatigue that you have in your elbow, forearm and, and your general casting mechanics. And, you know, it just, it feels lighter in the hand. It is lighter in the hand because it’s, you know, eight to 10 inches shorter and by the end of the day, like you feel better than you would swinging around a nine foot rod. Phil (52m 24s): Or, you know, some people are are fans of nine and a half or even 10 foot rods for that, which I, I just, I can’t do, you know. Yeah, Jeff (52m 31s): Well you, you basically were casting the whole line with an eight foot, four inch rod, right. With a couple of false casts. So it’s nothing to do about distance. Right. So I sometimes look at fly rod designs as there’s casting rods and then there’s fishing rods. And that’s why I’ve been with Scott for 25 years that they just sort of talk to the angler, I feel. Phil (52m 56s): Yeah, yeah. So I mean, you know, like I, you’re probably not gonna hear this from many sales reps, I guess, but I would tell you that like there’s not a bad high-end rod on the market. Okay. Right, exactly. Like, like they all perform really well. I mean, the reason why I choose and love Scott is two things, mainly two main things, right? The look, okay. They use really great components. They use top end cork, like the, the guide set, the aircraft grade aluminum that they use on the real seat of like their, you know, the sector for instance. I mean, all that just makes a fantastic looking rod. You pair that with, you know, the hand inscribed, you know, name, serial number model that’s on the rod, and then the unfinished blank and like the see-through wraps and just all the details on Scott, in my opinion, really set it apart from any other high-end rod, rod manufacturer on the market. Phil (53m 54s): The second reason why I like Scott as a performance reason and that is, is because scotts tend to have a little bit softer tip than almost any other high-end rod on the market. Okay. And what that softer tip really helps you do is pick up at a shorter distance and recast at a longer distance because that softer tip lets you feel the rod load on your initial back cast. You know, if you’re going back cast to a false cast, then your, your presentation cast and a softer tip also, I, in my opinion, like it loads the rod, it creates like kind of a springboard to get, to get the cast going, to get the recast going. Phil (54m 35s): The other thing about a softer tip, and this is kind of a a second tier reason though I really like it, is it protects lighter tip it really well, you know, and I would argue that a softer tip protects pet tip it better than a, than a stiffer tip rod. And a fiberglass rod protects better tip better it, it protects tip it better than a soft tip rod, right? So Jeff (55m 1s): Yeah, we just cast casted the echo badass glass and I will say you’ve, it’s pretty nice rod. Phil (55m 8s): Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you know, and, and like it’s funny because, you know, I mean, And we could go into the weeds on this, but I mean, the thing to remember is, is that people oftentimes make a, what I would call a misjudgment that, you know, fiberglass is like a weaker material. It’s just a different material, right? And you can, you can load a fiberglass rod with the same exact lines you would in an equivalent graphite rod. And in some cases I would argue heavier. And the fiberglass rod is gonna deliver it. It’s gonna deliver it well, it’s gonna deliver it probably with providing a little bit of cushion to your casting mechanics. I often recommend fiberglass to people that are having, you know, thumb, forearm, wrist, you know, elbow type issues. Phil (55m 56s): And then it’s really hard to pull a hook out of a fish with fiberglass. ’cause you have all that cushion in the tip, you know? Jeff (56m 2s): Right. Phil (56m 3s): You know, so Jeff (56m 4s): There’s something to say about fishing and casting. Phil (56m 6s): Yes. Yeah. And there’s, there’s definitely a difference between those two rods, you know, and, and those two type of odds. And I, you know, I, I do think that most high-end manufacturers create some type of a mix of both of those. Some lean heavier on the fishy side, some lean heavier on the casting side, Jeff (56m 24s): Hence why we got lots of rods. Correct, correct. Like the bass angle there. Yeah. You know, let’s move on. So, you know, we’re gonna, we need to like maybe speed up ’cause we could probably take this into two podcasts. But let’s, what’s new, you know, you, you represent Montana Fly and there’s lots of new fly patterns, but is there anything in the new fly tying materials that has sort of like rocked your world here with lately Phil (56m 51s): The Eno, sat and chail. Jeff (56m 53s): Okay. Phil (56m 54s): I have, man, I use that stuff. I mean, probably at least three quarters of the flies I’ve been tying has that eno sat and chail in it. I mean, I use it to prop up other materials. I will use it to twist with existing materials like aqua veil, polar reflector, flash, whatever, and create kind of a two tonal wrap. You can almost create like a synthetic feather, essentially. Like, like if you’re tying a circus peanut or whatever Right. With that combination you can do, you know, really sweet sparkle minnows, I showed you those. You know, like, like the, I do most, a lot of the collars on my swing flies with that stuff to kind of create a, a vortex in the front. Phil (57m 36s): I’ll even trap rubber legs in between like aqua veil and that satin chail. This is a trick I I learned from Greg Sanil, but in between and then Palmer it on the hook and pull him back and create like a, like a rubber leg thorax. Right. Or like a skirt. And I mean it’s just, it’s such a cool material. And now he introduces this new shadow flash to kind of go with it, which is like a really low reflective flash. And you know, essentially what we’re trying to create is a system to either tone down or tone up your flash in a fly versus just having all flash or all dull, you know, we wanna be able to adjust it Right. Phil (58m 18s): And fine tune what you’re looking for. And man, that sat and Chail has really been a, that’s been a game changer for me. Jeff (58m 25s): Yeah. Let’s, we should probably clarify to the listeners, you know, Phil, what, when you say twisting, do you mean in a dubbing loop or like what do you, when you mean the term twisting, what do you, let’s, let’s go over that. Sure, Phil (58m 37s): Sure. So, so what, what I’m talking about when, when I say twisting right, is a satin chail. It’s a chail. So it’s a, it’s a strong chail on accord. And, and what I’m doing is I’m twisting it up with another chail on accord, another corded chail. And, and oftentimes, you know, I really like the CNF Hackle pliers, but oftentimes I’ll just use hemostats, right. And clamp the two chails in the tip of the hemostats and then twist ’em. And then I usually have like a, like a steel brush to just pull the fibers out and really like, kind of give it the, the good body. But essentially I’m just twisting two pieces of chail together. Jeff (59m 15s): Okay. Yeah. And I, and sometimes if you tie like the satin flash forward facing and as you’re twisting the two chails together, you can just keep bringing back like a sort of like a horse main Yeah. In between each. Yeah. So as you’re wrapping one wrap, you, you, you have your forward facing cha, you know, your shadow flash going forward, then you pull back a couple strands, make a twist of the chails, then you can layer that like a horse man going through the chails. Correct. Phil (59m 46s): Yeah. You can do it like that. I mean, you know, like my, most of my flies though is it, they’re gonna be like, they’re gonna be two chails twisted together and then Palmer Okay. As one. Right. Okay. So like, you know, that’s, that’s generally how I do it. And what that ultimately looks like is like a lot of times the eno satin chail is like 10 millimeter and then the aqua veil is like 30 millimeter in length. So it creates like a core with the, with the satin chail and then like fibers like a lot sparse or fibers with the aqua ve Jeff (1h 0m 17s): Gotcha. So it’s like the, it’s sort of like a, you know, a typical steelhead fiber where we’re propping up with the finer fibers, giving it the bulk without the, you know, giving it the illusion of profile without the bulk. Correct. Okay. Phil (1h 0m 29s): Easier to cast. Okay. Jeff (1h 0m 31s): Any, anything else that’s in the works that you don’t want to maybe divulge, but is there anything else going on or, Phil (1h 0m 38s): Yeah, I mean there’s, there’s a couple of things in the pipeline that we’ve been like trying to figure out in terms of color, in terms of like sizes, that kind of stuff that, I mean, it’s, it’s coming, there’s, there’s gonna be more additions to like being able to tune up and down your flash in a fly, like along the same side, same lines as the, the San Sat and chail and, and there’s, there’s one other material that actually Greg San also came up with, which is a dirty bird dubbing. And I’ve been using that a lot too. But I mean, those, those are two that like, I would tell any hardcore fly tire out there, like you should, you should pick up some of that stuff and the colors that, that, you know, that call out to you and, and you know, you should pick up some of that stuff and really give it a go because I think that it’s, it’s gonna change your experience, you know, and, and give you a, a more positive experience on, on a lot of even existing patterns you may tie. Jeff (1h 1m 32s): Yeah. I mean that whole theory about like, there’s flash in your face flash and not, I mean I, I remember back in the day when the silver plate, silver plate, you know, when I was a big time troller and then they came out with the matte silver plate, which was silver plate, but before they actually came out with it, we would just take fingernail polish and go right over top of the silver plate to give it the doll flash under those days, like you said. And there’s something to say about it, flashes sometimes could be too much, right? Phil (1h 2m 1s): Yeah. Yeah. And if, and I mean like take a snorkel, you know, take a snorkel out there and go look at bait fish on the bottom, see how much flash they give off. Jeff (1h 2m 10s): Right. Phil (1h 2m 11s): I think you’d be surprised to see how little they give off actually. So Jeff (1h 2m 15s): Yeah. You know, this has been really great. I mean, mean you can go down the pipeline talking about flies and everything else we’ve been going on for, you know, at least an hour now. Let’s, let me, let’s just ask you, you know, I know your dad got you into it, but let’s talk about the learning process. I’ve had more mentors and I’m super blessed myself to have from casting mentors to ang mentors, to lure building mentors. How about yourself? What, I mean, isn’t that the part of the stepping stone? Like, like you said about a fly, there’s always like that base fly, but there’s also the person that people don’t give credit to is our mentors, don’t you think? Phil (1h 2m 53s): Oh, I think, I think absolutely that’s the case. And, and I mean, it really to me, I mean, I don’t think either of us would be, would be where we are without, you know, having the mentors we did. And I mean, to be honest with you, like it, it’s probably one of my favorite parts about the industry is like, is like now being in a position where I feel like I, I could impart, you know, some of the things, some of the nuggets I’ve learned like through the years, you know, and then, and watch people go out and be successful with that. Like, that’s one of the, the major joys of this, of working in this industry for me. You know, my dad obviously, he got me into, into fishing, you know, I remember fishing like I, he was a, he was a Presbyterian minister and I remember, I remember fishing off of one of his congregants docks, right. Phil (1h 3m 43s): And we were fishing bobbers. I was like three years old, right? And he hooks this fish and it’s, it’s humongous, right? And it’s under us. And I don’t even remember what the fish is. I, I think it was a walleye. ’cause I’ve asked my dad about this story, you know, and he, of course he has no idea, you know, but I think it was a walleye. But I just remember seeing this enormous fish thrashing under the dock. And I mean, it was like, it was like, it’s imprinted. I mean, I still remember it, you know, it, I mean, it could have been a pike, could have been a walleye, whatever it was, you know, but, but it was memorable, I’ll tell you that much. And then, and then, you know, just going along, like my grandpa, I don’t think he had a very much interest in fishing, but he saw that I had a fire under me, so he would take me out on trips and salt water, you know, and I’d hook into lady fish that pulled, you know, and, and all these other saltwater fish and red fish and everything. Phil (1h 4m 35s): And like really began to, I mean, it just stoked the fire. And then, you know, it was funny because when I was out west, I fished a ton, you know, I had obviously fished the eSense a bunch, and when word gets around in Grayling, Michigan that you’re becoming a guide, you know, there’s some mixed reactions, let’s just put it that way. But, but there were a couple, couple gentlemen that like really spent the time to, to help me get better and improve my skills. Jerry Regan and Ron Ozzi were two of those guys. And, and you know, Ron really helped me with like how to properly pull a riverboat, how to do a, a well done dinner, right? Phil (1h 5m 18s): A dinner spread for, for your boat or for multiple boats. You know, he, he showed me a lot of things about how to be a professional, right? And then you, you go kind of further on and, and you know, I had this guy Jim Johnson in Midland who had been bass fishing since the mid sixties, right? Since way before it was cool. You know what I mean? Yeah. And he was very uncool, but he was, but I mean, he was a heck of a bass fisherman and, you know, he fished things for bass that I had never seen people fish for, for bass. Like little Dave’s hoppers, like, like ants. I mean, he was, he was very much a, very much a student of the, the local rivers where we lived. Phil (1h 6m 1s): And you know, him, him kind of taking me under his wing and showing me, showing me his process. I mean, I’m, I’m, I’m grateful for all of it and I’m grateful for the people that that took time outta their day and their life to, you know, educate me with nuggets big or small. I mean, I think that you and I can say here and honestly say that we’ve learned people or we’ve learned things, you know, whether about fishing or even in life from people that might’ve been the least fishies people we knew are are in that class, you know, but, but they thought about things in a different way. They, you know, they helped us along in a, you know, the stepping stones of fishing or in life, you know, and, And we can look back today and just be really thankful for, for those people to, that they, that they did that, you know? Phil (1h 6m 51s): And, and I think that, like I said, you know, at the beginning, and I, I really truly feel like this, we, we wouldn’t be sitting here having this conversation, you know, talking about our joy for fishing, you know, without, without those guys and gals that, that did that for us, Jeff (1h 7m 6s): Right? I think my job as an ambassador and your jobs, as you know, in the industry as a professional sales rep is to pass a torch to the next generation the right way, just like it was passed to us. But you know, that when it was passed to us, it wasn’t as, it was more low keyed, right? Because there was no social media or none of that, right? They just did it because that’s what you do. And now that you know, there are like myself and you, that’s what we’re gonna do to the next generation. So think about mentoring, think about that. I have mentee like you, you know, many mentors myself, Phil, we’re gonna wrap this up. We are gonna do another one of these because me and you can go on forever with all over the Great Lakes. Jeff (1h 7m 50s): And if you have any questions, be more than happy to reach out to Dave or myself at the Wetly swing. Of course. And I’m sure you might get quite a few questions to ask Phil about your local fisheries, if you’re in Michigan or have another fishery around the Great Lakes, do you wanna apply to her anywhere else? Reach out to you, know myself and we’ll get the questions answered. And thanks for the listen and looking forward to the next episode. I think we’re gonna dive into some maybe brick trout fishing up in and around the North shores of Lake Superior. But thanks again for the listen and catch you on the next one.