773 | Kirk Deeter – Behind the Scenes with Trout Unlimited

Dave (2s): Today’s guest has had as big of an impact as you can probably have in protecting the species we love. He produces a product that allows us all to appreciate the winds in fly fishing and in conservation. And today, you’re gonna get a behind the scenes look at one of the largest groups in fly fishing so you can better prepare your gear, your trips, and your life for more success on the water this year, this is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Kirk Deeter, editor of Trout Magazine, who has been working as the editor there for 13 years now, is gonna take us behind the scenes into Trout Unlimited. Dave (44s): We find out how he looks for wins in his stories, whether conservation or otherwise. We find out why he thinks we are actually in the golden age of outdoor riding right now. And what he also thinks about the $1,200 fly rod and why you might not need one. And also he’s gonna get into fly lab and what he has coming here and the success of this project and how it’s coming together with angling trade. And I don’t wanna miss, he’s got a new book coming. He announces it for the first time today, the title. You Get It All. We love trout. Let’s get into it. Here is Kirk Deeter. How you doing Kirk? Kirk (1m 22s): I’m doing well, thanks Dave. Thanks for having me. Dave (1m 24s): Yeah, thanks for, thanks for putting this together today. You know, it, it seems like I get in these episodes and we, we’ve done a lot and I, we’ve heard your name a lot out there and, and it’s great to have you on here, whether that’s, you know, through TU or some of the other stuff you have going. But we’re gonna get into Trout Magazine, which you, you have, you know, been the editor for. We’re gonna talk about that. We’re gonna talk about some other things you’re in, you know, interested in, in fly fishing. But before we get there, let’s take it back real quick on fly fishing. As far as your, your start. Do you remember, kinda, do you have a first memory out there? Kirk (1m 53s): Yeah, I, I learned to fly fish when I was dating my now wife in college. I, her dad and grandfather were big into fly fishing. They had a family cabin on, on the pier. Marquette, well, it’s on the Baldwin River in Michigan, and I was visiting and I, I wasn’t gonna make the cut, I don’t think. If I didn’t take up fly fishing, I’d always, I’d always, I grew up on the Wisconsin side of Lake Michigan and always loved fishing, but I was a gear angler until I met my wife. And then, you know, ever since I’ve, I just really took a shine to it. And one thing led to that, I always been a, you know, a hobby and then started mixing the writing with the fishing and one thing led to another, and years later it’s become a career, so, Dave (2m 43s): Yeah. Right. And, and you’re with one of the biggest, I mean, we talk about this a lot, about the conservation groups out there, you know, tu is one of the biggest for sure, but we always talk about, you know, how big Right. Are there others out there and all that. So we might talk a little bit about that today, but how did your, did your writing come first and then when did the tu and kind of Trout magazine and all that come to be? Yeah, Kirk (3m 4s): So I was, I was a sports writer after college, and I had a news local newspaper in Philadelphia. And, but I had always liked the fishing as I said. So I started to dabble and I got a chance to write a magazine story for Fly Fisherman magazine in the mid nineties. Terry Gunn, who’s from Lees Ferry and owned that operation down there, he was gracious enough to make an introduction to John Randolph. And I wrote a story for Fly Fisherman. I thought, wow, this is pretty cool. I get to write stories about fishing. And then I was about to, though I wanted to be an outdoor writer, and I was about outta money and we were about to move back and take a corporate job back east, but I sent in my resume on a whim to Field and Stream and Sid Evans, who was the editor at the time, invited me in for a, an interview and he asked me, I live in Colorado. Kirk (4m 1s): He asked, he said, but I came to New York to go to this interview, and he said, Dieter, how, how many days a year do you go fishing? I was, I wasn’t doing a lot of work at the time, so I told him the truth. About 150 days a year, I’m out on the river. And he said, and why would you want to come to New York and ride a train and work in a cubicle in a city? And I said, because it’s field and stream. It’s the, the Yankee Pins stripes of the outdoor world. It’s as good as it gets. And he looked at me in the eye and he said, why don’t you stay in Colorado and write stories for Field and Stream Magazine? And it was the coolest thing that anybody had ever done for me. And I took that ball and ran with it and still have fond connections with the Field and Stream group. Kirk (4m 45s): And I’m proud of Lump there. But, you know, about 13 years ago, tu came, calling Charter Unlimited, wanted me to edit their magazine, and realizing that none of this stuff has been possible without the conservation first, you know, you don’t take care of the water. There is no fish in, I really couldn’t say no. So I’ve been doing it for, I don’t count in years or months anymore. I counting in issues and I’m working on my 52nd issue of Trout Magazine right now. Dave (5m 17s): Wow. 52nd. Amazing. Kirk (5m 19s): Yeah. Quarterly publication. So it adds up after a while. Yeah, Dave (5m 24s): Yeah. 52nd. That’s so cool. And yeah, there’s a lot of great things about Trout Unlimited, obviously, probably so much that we can’t even, you know, cover it all today. But what is it like going from like Field and Stream versus Trout Unlimited? Is there, are there a lot of similarities there between your, you know, your job and just the, the publications? Kirk (5m 43s): Well, I try to make it, you know, when I came to Trout, I wanted to make it a fun read, you know, and, and yeah, there’s a conscience and we talk about conservation stuff in there. But we also, I was lucky enough to have worked with John AK and edit his stuff and work with Dave Whitlock and, and some of these Paul Bru now. And I’m also really proud that we have a lot of really talented women authors and editors involved with Trout Magazine. So Aaron Block and Christine Peterson and all that. So we try to make it equal parts inspiration and information, and not be heavy handed on the conservation stuff, rather make it fun so that you wanna, you wanna read the magazine cover to cover, and you wanna be entertained, you wanna learn stuff a tip or a trick or two. Kirk (6m 37s): But then, you know, you trip over the, the message obviously that it’s important to take care of these rivers. And, and fortunately we have a, a really loyal base of people who care. And that’s, it’s an honor for me to write and edit a magazine for that, that audience. ’cause I, I consider it talking to the people who care the most about fly fishing. Dave (7m 1s): Yeah, no, I, I agree. I, and we had John Gear Rock on a couple times, and one of those times, you know, we were talking about just the conservation piece, and I can’t remember exactly what I was saying, but I was asking him like, you know, do you find it, you know, like important to always cover some conservation topic right. In your writing, however you do it. And he said, yes. You know, he said, yeah, he thinks it is important, you know, and I think that the conservation, I think is sometimes a struggle because like you said, it gets this down, especially, you know, now and things, right. There’s lots of struggles out there, whether that’s Alaska, Chinook or other issues, you know, I feel like it’s a big down, there are some downer messages, but it sounds like you, you’re able to keep through Trump magazine, keep it more upbeat. Dave (7m 43s): How do you do that exactly? Is that, first off, you know, I mean, getting John Gear Rock, somebody like that is amazing, but How are you able to do that? Kirk (7m 49s): Yeah, well actually John came to me, they had a nice long run, John and Bob White with Fly Rod and Reel Magazine for years and years. And then sadly, fly Rod and Reel went under and they needed a home. And John called me and said, how about Trout? And I said, absolutely, you’re welcome. And he, you know, now obviously he’s gone and we, we miss him. Yeah, very much. But believe it or not, we still have a few of his stories in the can that we’re gonna run. Oh, wow. The last Unpublished Gear Act stuff. And Bob White is still working with us. And anyway, I felt really honored that they would think well enough of trout to want to have that become their new home. Kirk (8m 34s): And a lot of people do. I think a lot of, I, I get a lot of queries, I get a lot of people who aspire to write for Trout Magazine because it is the largest print publication in fly fishing as far as our reach and audience. Oh, it Dave (8m 48s): Is, yeah. Yeah, it is. Okay. By Kirk (8m 50s): A lot, actually. And I have 150,000 subscribers who get the magazine whether they want it or not. Right. Dave (8m 60s): Yeah, right, right. Well, and that’s amazing because if you think about, you mentioned Field and Stream, which is a gigantic, right. At one point was gigantic, but they’re probably not as big in the fly space, maybe as they used to be. Kirk (9m 11s): That’s right. Back when I was writing for Field and Stream in our print heydays 20 years ago or thereabouts, we would mail 5 million copies of Field and Stream. So, wow. Yeah, and I mean, it was a good learning experience for me as a writer, because I mean, you’re bearing your soul for a lot of people, and you gotta develop thick skin. You, no matter what you do, someone’s gonna have a, a complaint. But most of the time, if you’re making people happy, if for an audience that large, it’s, it’s a boost to your own spirit and, you know, really fuels your imagination. And that’s fun. And then, but you’re right, as far as Field and Stream was all things, it’s hunting, mostly gear fishing mostly, and fly fishing was a tiny little niche. Kirk (9m 56s): And yet now fly fishing for Trout Magazine is, is the big draw. So I, I feel like I’m kind of still relating to a similar type of audience and similar demographics. So it was a pretty easy transition, actually. Dave (10m 14s): Right. That’s amazing. And on the issues, it sounds like, as far as keeping things upbeat and stuff like that, how do you do that with the, with the issues out there? You know, because you’ve got some pretty big things. I mean, the, you know, climate change, water temperatures, you know, and all this stuff. How do you do that with the magazine to keep people, you know what I mean? Like keep it a little more like people wanna read, even though there’s some downer stuff. Kirk (10m 34s): Well, you look for the winds, right? Show me the money. So people wanna know what, what works and climate change, you mentioned huge problem, huge challenge for sure. But actually the stuff that we do can mitigate the effects of climate change. You know, planting trees along the river and taking out obsolete small dams to keep currents flowing, reduce the temperatures of those rivers by three or four degrees, you know, in a world where everyone’s running around like chicken little, the sky is falling, what are we gonna do about this climate change? There’s nothing I can do. Well, truth of the matter is, is that we can roll up our sleeves and get some stuff done and make a big impact now. Kirk (11m 17s): And I mean, it’s not gonna be 20, 30 years before we see the results of some of this stuff. Taking out some of those dams has made an immediate impact. And so with a nationwide network of volunteers and people, and our, our staff, we’ve got 300 people working across the country for tr to Unlimited. And I think people don’t realize how big Tr Unlimited is. It’s approaching a hundred million dollars a year in and Yeah. And, and the stuff, and the vast, vast majority of that is plowed right into fixing rivers, you know, so, you know, the, the fodder is there. Kirk (11m 57s): There’s a lot of really ripe opportunity to talk about winds, and that’s what I focus on most, you know, every once in a while is, you know, we’ve got this challenge and Dave (12m 6s): Right. Bristol Bay or whatever the issue is. Yeah. Well, Kirk (12m 9s): Bristol Bay, we won, you know, that’s Dave (12m 11s): Yeah, you did Kirk (12m 12s): So far. And that’s a, that’s a great example, taking out the El wa dam and you know, the, the fish have come back already. Dave (12m 19s): Yeah. The Klamath dams. Kirk (12m 20s): The Klamath dams have come out and they’re, they’ve already seen fish moving up in some of that water. I mean, it’s, it’s never a hundred percent done. And I guess that’s a frustration I have. You, you still hear the specter of, you know, what could happen in Bristol Bay and you gotta be diligent and all that stuff. But, you know, I, I, as a member of Trout Unlimited, which I was long before I became the editor, I like to know that the money’s well spent and we’re getting results. And we’re not just agitating people or getting them worked up so that they, you know, they say the sky is falling. And, and the other thing about Tu, and I’ll say this, and I’m obviously a homer for Tu, but we do actual work. Kirk (13m 3s): I mean, there’s science, there’s bulldozers, there’s hydrologists, there’s engineers that, people who actually do more than just advocate or lobby the government. We’re much more than a lobbying organization. We do a lot of boots in the water work. And I think that that’s an aspect for me as an editor, again, it’s easy to find stories when there’s actual work being done. Right. Dave (13m 27s): That’s easy. Awesome. Well, I think, I think that’s a great start on Tu I, I have so many questions and like always, we won’t be able to get to all these, but one big one I have is on, you know, just tu itself, like with the area it covers, you know, I think tu a lot of the things we hear about, or, you know, kind of us focus, but is it, does it go outside of us, outside of North America? Is it, are there projects in other areas or, or what’s the focus there? Kirk (13m 51s): You know, I think we’re, we’re not officially, you know, we don’t have like chapters and councils and Argentina and Australia and other places, but we do have partnerships, you know, for example, we’ve had good friends from Australia, Tasmania specifically come and tour, and we do a co-op type information sharing with that group. And they come to Colorado and they work up and down the Rockies and see what we are up to and take some of those lessons home and, and vice versa. I’ve been lucky enough to go over there and see what they do and how they manage fisheries. And so, especially in this day and age, digital connections allow us to share ideas and stuff. Kirk (14m 34s): So, yeah. Dave (14m 34s): Yeah. So there’s a little bit overlap, but, but obviously it’s trout, you know, trout unlimited, so I mean, the focus is trout species, right? I mean, you’re covering all, and there’s a lot of interesting trout, you know, species and of interest that come up here. But when you go back to John Gear Rock, who we mentioned, you know, how does that look? Obviously his passing was, was definitely, you know, a tough one to see a guy like that. Probably, I mean, I would say right, one of the greatest, maybe the greatest fly fishing writers. I mean, how do you put, where do you stack him up against, you know, all the fly fishing writers in history? Kirk (15m 7s): I think, I think John had an uncanny knack of being every man. I think that the reason that he was so successful was that he could, you know, you would pick up the book and instantly relate to him, right? He wasn’t on some, never put himself on some pedestal and was very much plain spot. And it was that way in real life too. I mean, I would go and we’d have lunches and chat about stuff, and I was lucky enough to have him come up to our cabin in Michigan and spend a few days up there and fist with him, and he was just a real down to earth, easy going, didn’t like the spotlight necessarily. He’d like to, you know, he promoted his books and did the obligations to move that forward as a career. Kirk (15m 53s): But it was never really about John, it was about the, the, the sport. And he was a, a player and medium to share some of those ideas. His humility in his writing I think was his greatest asset. And it’s missed. I don’t think a lot of people can replicate that. But I would also say that there are a lot of great voices, and I’m lucky to work with a number of ’em, you know, and Tom Rosenau is now writing some Troutman stories. And again, Christine Peterson is a really great young outdoor writer from Wyoming family, you know, neat approach to her columns and her writing, if you look hard enough, there’s a lot of great voices, but, you know, there’s, in this day and age, it’s hard to find them because people are self-publishing and self blogging and all that stuff, right? Kirk (16m 53s): And back in the day to get published in Fields and Stream Magazine, you had to be really good, you know? Yeah, Dave (16m 60s): Yeah. That was, yeah. Things have changed a lot. You’ve seen, you’ve seen that right. Over the years. Has that been a interesting place to be as an editor to see the, the digital and the changes over the years? Kirk (17m 10s): Yeah, it has, but I, I also think, you know, the, the reverse of that is that it forces you to transcend even more to get above the average stuff. So those who are able to be a gear act, for example, and transcend the blogosphere, I think there’s some really good work being put out now that’s a hundred years from now, this is gonna be considered a really good golden age of some outdoor riding. Dave (17m 43s): Yeah. It’s amazing. Well, and, and so, and I guess finishing that gear Rock point there, so you’ve, I mean, filling that role right, is a tough one, but how have you been able, have you, you know, to do that Kirk (17m 54s): Well, next person up? You know, we, we have lots of people. Tom Reed has come back and is writing more. Russell James just did a really cool thing in this issue. Voices that are gonna be more and more prominent as we keep going. Andy Peg, man, there’s a lot of really good talent out there. So I think it’s just a matter of handing off the microphone and seeing what works. And I’m a risk taker as an editor, and I’ll run things up the flagpole out, you know, I’ll run a story about going and fishing with a, a punk rock musician in Trout Magazine. And, you know, granted the trout readership is not typically a bunch of punkers, but Yeah, right. Kirk (18m 40s): But there’s something to be said and something to be explored, and it’s working. So until they tell me otherwise, I’m gonna keep taking risks, Dave (18m 48s): Keep taking risks. I think that’s a smart move. We, we try to do that in the podcast too. I think podcasting and, and what you do is a little bit different. But we’ve had definitely some episodes I know where we’ve gotten some hate mail, you know, like we had episode 4 0 7, we had David Gravette on, he’s a, a professional skateboarder, and he dropped so many F ball. I mean, I, I got the feedback there was pretty crazy. But I loved it because the guy is so passionate, you know, he’s so passionate about what he does and it was just like, you could hear it and you still see it out there. So I feel like anybody with the passion is worthy of a conversation. Like how do you see that? Have you guys received some, some hate mail? And how do you deal with that? Kirk (19m 24s): We do, but you know, I try to, at the end of the day that I agree with you that the more diverse the opinions are, doesn’t it really underscore the beauty of fly fishing that someone who’s a professional skateboarder who’s dropping F-bombs and all that is, you know, equally enamored with this pursuit. Yep. You know, some cardiologist, doctor from suburban Washington DC or some woman who’s a librarian in Boulder, Colorado, or whatever. There’s the fact that we can all kind of find common ground, especially in this day and age, it’s a uniting thing. And trying to get ourselves as far away from the stereotype of the old white man in tweed smoking a pot, you know, walking along the river. Kirk (20m 12s): That’s just a fallacy these days. And showing the reality that it is a diverse and interesting and challenging and youthful and energetic sport, I think is the future. Dave (20m 26s): Pescador on the Fly offers a full range of fly fishing gear for any angler at any budget. With premium rods delivered directly to you, the L ray G six is the most packable high performance fly rod on the market, performing like a four piece rod, but with unmatched portability in six pieces. And you can get 10% off your next order right now if you use the code wet fly Swing at pescador on the fly.com. Never fly without your G six. Discover the L Race series and more at pescador on the fly.com. Fish Hound Expeditions offers world-class fly fishing right off Alaska’s incredible road system for monster rainbow trout to feisty arctic grayling. You’ll chase big species in the stunning landscape. Dave (21m 5s): Whether you’re a seasoned angler or just starting out their expert guides, ensure an unforgettable adventure. Book your trip today before spots fill up and experience Alaska’s diversity like never before. Check ’em out right now. That’s fish hound expeditions.com. Maybe let’s jump into a little bit on the magazine. For those that maybe haven’t been keeping up with Trout Magazine, can you give us a little update on what you’ve been working on, either, you know, recent issues or what’s coming up here? Kirk (21m 35s): So we have themes for every issue. And believe it or not, I’ve got ’em charted out for a few years and it’s just a way to collect stories and kind of keep bumpers on the lanes. And so the theme we’re working on right now that’s gonna come out in June is public lands and going out. And it’s not so much, again, a focus on the threats to the public lands, which are plenty. But rather we’re focusing on the celebration of the great experiences to be had on public lands and calling out some really neat places that anyone can go and en enjoy. And one of the things I’ve learned, my takeaways, I’m very lucky in that I’ve gotten to go to all over the world to write stories about fishing. Kirk (22m 21s): Right? Somebody has to take one for the team. So I did, but I’ve been all over the world in every single place I’ve gone. While it’s wonderful and people are excited about the opportunities, the thing of it is there’s uniform admiration for the United States in our public land system. You know, people in England while going and fishing, the pristine beets on the river test is an amazing experience. At the end of the day, they’re like, wow, you know, you’ve got literally unions of acres of walkable land that it’s really kind of an, a unique thing in the world. Kirk (23m 0s): So celebrating all that is, Dave (23m 2s): That is amazing. Yeah. And that kind of goes back to are you a big, I’m not sure if you’re a big history buff, but you know, do you know, I mean, I guess that kind of goes back to Teddy Roosevelt, right? Kirk (23m 11s): Yeah, absolutely. And you know, that’s the greatest idea in America, right? Yeah. National Parks is considered our, our greatest idea and our greatest treasure. And so, and again, I think that it’s one of those things where the cause is uniting and not dividing. Yeah, it’s been politicized a little bit lately and there are some on one side of the aisle that are advocating for divestiture of public lands. And, but at the end of the day, people who hunt and fish and hike and camp realize that that’s such a great asset. They don’t want to get rid of that. And that doesn’t matter what political walk of life you’re from or that’s something that we can all agree on. Kirk (23m 53s): I mean, it’s pretty nice to be able to look across out my window now and look up on the national forest land and know that there’s tens of thousands of acres and dozens of little creeks and streams that I can go walk out and fish anytime I want to. We’re lucky. Yeah. Dave (24m 11s): That is really lucky. That’s amazing. So you guys are spotlighting the kind of the public lands, and does that look like, are you focusing on a specific area or just covering it more in general? Kirk (24m 21s): No, in fact, one of the things that we really endeavor to do with Trout Magazine is have geographic balance. So we’ve got stories from California and up and down the Rockies, the upper Midwest, new England, they’ve got a really cool story about northern Vermont. So we really try to balance every issue with north, south, east, and west as well. Dave (24m 41s): Yeah, you do. Right. And that’s always a, you know, that’s a, I think a struggle for sometimes, you know, I know when we got started we were really focused, you know, kind of western. We’ve now been around long enough to expand over the whole country. But again, I don’t know it as well. That’s one of the challenges, right? Like part of the southeast, I haven’t fished down there, you know, as much as I would like. Do you have places for you that you’re thinking like, okay, we gotta really put more time in this state or this, this region to do, you know, in the upcoming years? Kirk (25m 8s): Yeah, believe it or not, I, I’m reminded of that by readers, you know, some of those, Dave (25m 13s): Oh, you are right. Yeah. Kirk (25m 15s): You haven’t really written about eastern Tennessee in a long time. Maybe you ought to come down and do it. I’m like, okay, I keep an open mind, do that. But you know, the, the squeaky wheel gets the grease sometimes. But we try to balance it out and, and going back to the original thought, we also chase the best story, right? So I try to run stories, even if it’s a story about a place in Wyoming, I want that to be compelling and interesting for the person in Grand Rapids, Michigan, or you Knowto Vermont or wherever, Atlanta, Georgia. We try to have national appeal, or at least lessons that either can be lifted and transposed to their world or inspires them to go and seek that adventure wherever that is. Kirk (26m 5s): So that’s another really important part of the, of the editorial mix. Yeah, Dave (26m 10s): That makes sense. Yeah, that’s a, you know, it seems like from my perspective, I don’t know as much, obviously I’m not an editor, but just being running a podcast, there are some similarities, you know? Sure. And the story is the biggest one. I think that’s kind of what podcasting really excels in the fact that, you know, that’s kind of what we’re doing, but we’re tell you’re telling the story today, right? You’re actually telling the story of, of tu and, and kind of some of the people you’re connected with, which is cool. Well, one story, and again, we’ve been on this a hot topic. I kind of came to the game a little late, but did you guys ever cover the story of the, the Feather Thief story? Kirk (26m 43s): I sure did, yeah. And, and I’ve actually fished with Kirk Johnson. Oh, you did? And yeah, several years ago, right when the book was coming out, nobody knew who Dave (26m 52s): He was. Nice. Kirk (26m 53s): Super cool guy and great writer and a great book for sure. Dave (26m 56s): Yeah. Great book. Yeah. I mean, he’s definitely got the skill for sure, because you read that one and it’s, it keeps you out the, well the story is just kind of bizarre. But we’ve, we had Kirk on and we talked about it and, and I’m kind of following up with a few people just to, that’s an interesting story because I think for me, I didn’t realize it. I mean, I’ve been in fly fishing most of my life and I didn’t realize the classic that little sector of, of the fly tires, right? That some of ’em don’t fish. It’s really this really highly prized exotic species which are endangered and, you know, and the theft and stuff. What, what’s your take, did you connect with that, the classic fly tying groups? Do you know much about, you know, those folks? Kirk (27m 33s): Well, you know, you hit the nail on the head, but you can talk about lots of little niches in fly fishing, right? So there’s this big umbrella and we all fall under it one way or another. But you’ve got carp people, for example, right? You chase carp religiously, and, and that’s all they do. But they’re fly fishing for carp and they’re kind of this, I’m gonna say this affectionately, you know, they’re this own group of weirdos, right? And I’m part of that. Then you’ve got the fly tying obsessed weirdos who do their thing, and then the steelhead weirdos who stand in. That’s true. Sideways sleet storms and catch Yeah. Every season, you know, are Dave (28m 12s): And the striper weirdos, right? All the weird, yeah, the stripers, everything. You’ve Kirk (28m 15s): Got the saltwater junkies of the people, you know, my buddy Conway Bowman who chases sharks with fly rods. There’s all these weird wild little sub stories that kind of in mosaic make up the whole fabric of, of fly fishing. So that’s been an interesting thing for me as an editor, is you go from being a writer, which is like playing the lead violin in the orchestra to conducting the orchestra as an editor. And so learning how to bring in different parts at different times and to play all those little niches and dive into those subjects is really fun and fascinating. And I think that that’s also part of the appeal for the everyday consumer of stories or listener of podcasts that you can flip something on and, and find something that flips your particular switch and tune out if, you know, turn the page if it’s not your cup of tea. Dave (29m 10s): No, that’s a great point. Yeah. Somebody listening now can just press stop, you know what I mean? That’s the basic thing about it. And maybe follow up, you know, later. Kirk (29m 17s): I hope they don’t, I hope they, I did not done that. Dave (29m 20s): We have more good stuff to cover here today, so Yeah. We hope they don’t, but no, I think you, that’s well said, because yeah, the Feather thief story is just one little niche within fly fishing and there’s tons of niches, you know, whether that’s what you talked about or anything else. And we’re all, I feel like pretty much fly anglers are super passionate. Do you find that, ’cause you’ve kind of been in the sports world, do you think fly anglers are a similar, as passionate as say NBA or any other sport? Do you think they’re they’re more passionate? Kirk (29m 47s): Yeah, I think that for sure there’s a, a deep seated passion. ’cause it’s, it’s a community, right? It’s a tribe, it’s a culture. And I think that there are other sports, particularly participant sports that are the same way. Like scuba divers are equally passionate. They travel, they seek adventure, they’re doing that kind of stuff. Golfers, you know, there’s a tradition rules that go back. And both sports are rooted in Scotland 600 years ago. And, you know, traditions that, that have been carried for generations and so forth. Baseball is, you Dave (30m 28s): Know, or American sport, Kirk (30m 29s): Americana, apple pie. Yeah. You know, so I see a lot of, a lot of that as well. Dave (30m 35s): Yeah. That’s awesome. No, I, it was, we had a recent episode we were talking about Ted Williams, you know, he was a, you know, obviously a great athlete, maybe one of the greatest hitters of all time. But we were talking about how he had this quote that said that toughest things to do in sports are to hit a golf ball, to hit a baseball and to cast a fly rod, right? Kirk (30m 53s): Like, Dave (30m 54s): Like that’s what Ted Williams coming from Ted Williams, who was the greatest ba you know, hitter of all time and a good fly fisherman, I think. But what do you think about that on the, you know, on the fly, the casting, you know, I wanted to get a little bit into the gear here ’cause I know you do some gear reviews and things like that. Sure. What is it about, you know, it all starts with the cast, right? Whether that’s like people seeing it like, oh my God, that’s, the river runs through it, right? The shadow cast, whatever. But what’s your take on the casting? Do you guys try to hit that in some of your content? Do you try to get new people into the sport? How does that look with fly casting? Do you think that’s the hardest step? Kirk (31m 26s): It’s certainly, I mean, there, there’s been research done by scientific anglers and Orvis and other companies where they’ve, you know, focus grouped and all this. And it comes down to the two inhibiting factors that keep people away from fly fishing are being intimidated by the cast and intimidated by complexity of tying knots. Dave (31m 47s): Oh, knots. Kirk (31m 48s): Yeah. So knots and casts are the hurdles that people need to climb over. My feeling about casting has evolved over time and that if, you know, 20 years ago I thought, it doesn’t matter how you cast and it shouldn’t be a, you know, an obstacle and you shouldn’t feel bad if you don’t have the greatest cast. And, and that’s all still true. I mean, I don’t think you have to have a perfect cast. But then again, we’ve created so many methods now where you don’t have to cast and instant gratification of pulling on fish by flopping a weighted mig upstream, and I’m not condemning that, but have grown to appreciate the commitment to learning to cast and to do that is really filling out of the whole fly fishing experience. Kirk (32m 42s): And I think people kind of cheat themselves if they don’t endeavor to learn the casting and, and figure out some of those things. Again, I’m not trying to be snobby about it, but I, I think that dedicating yourself to learning how to cast and do it well, like dedicating yourself to learning a golf Swing and you know, you, you’re gonna play the game better and, and it’s, it’s the basis for the whole sport. So, you know, I’m not, you know, some people, I went to this the Golden Gate Casting Club a a couple years ago Oh yeah, yeah. With my friend Jim Dawson and watch that. And you know, at first I thought how silly that you would have just casting all these people are obsessed with casting. Kirk (33m 23s): And then you go there and you see this and you think, my goodness, first of all, it’s the nucleus for so much that’s developed in the sport. I know the rods, the, you know, the traditions, the techniques, you know, everything can be kind of traced back six degrees into that one spot Golden Gate Caco club. But then you see people from all walks of life and the diversity factor that I was talking about earlier and see the sheer joy that people are able to share and the common ground that they’re able to find and how they’re united in this casting culture. And I think it’s an ex exquisite thing. I think it’s wonderful. Kirk (34m 4s): And I’ve, you know, so I’ve kind of grown away from thinking, oh, those casting snobs, all they care about is this. And then it’s too many complicated physics lessons and you’re, you’re overcomplicating things and you’re making it less accessible for people. Yeah, you can say some of that’s true, but on the other hand, if people are willing to jump on or off the learning curve at their own pace, I think casting’s a really cool vehicle to keep people attached to the sport. Dave (34m 32s): Yeah, I think it’s really cool. We’ve actually done quite a bit on casting recently this year. You know, we’ve had, you know, Tim Ray, Jeff on, and we’ve talked a lot about, and he obviously goes back to the Golden Gate we talked about, we even had Jim Dawson on because I met him down there. So we’ve been going on this, this part and it’s been cool because we’ve got into the history of fly rods, and I’ve talked about this a number of times, but how fly rods have gotten faster and faster, but the actual people winning, you know, the casting championships out there are actually people using old, you know, medium action rods from the eighties, you know, because they’re more flex you’re feeling it, you know, we’ve talked about that. What’s your take on, you know, the fly rod? Do you have a take on what is the best rod for, you know, somebody getting into it or there’s so much out there, you know, what do you say on the, on the fly rods type? Kirk (35m 17s): Yeah, I like to say I’m like the will rods of fly rods. I’ve never met a fly rod I didn’t like. So they’re all good for different reasons. I will say that a lot of the fast action rods to me are intentionally designed to compensate for casting flaws. So it’s just like oversized drivers in golf or bigger sweet spots on your irons. And the best, the best players in golf who can shape shots and do amazing things are still playing with blades. And I think it’s the same thing with fly fishing. I like to, you know, I have a couple bamboo rods and just recently gotten into that, but just because I just recently have been able to afford that. Kirk (36m 2s): But I like the, that slowed down deliberate action. I like a good meat. I’d still say I medium fast, graphite rod would be my first choice. I’m not really into the super, super fast stuff ’cause I like the sensitivity, but I think that, I think that the market in general is coming back that way. If you look at what, you know, Avis is touting with their new Helios and Scott with centric and the new classic R eight from Sage. People are coming back to the art of casting and making rods that people can feel and appreciate that and promoting them accordingly, which I also think is good for the sport. Kirk (36m 45s): Right? I think it’s good that we as anglers don’t simply go out on a seek and destroy mission every time we’re out fishing. It’s not about numbers, it’s not about shouldn’t be, it’s not sustainable if everyone just goes out and the only day that’s a good day is a day when you catch 30 or more fish, right? Not sustainable for the resources. So slowing down, slowing down your actions, slowing down your cast, considering more about making, you know, mixing up your approach. Go for a technique, slam in a day, throw dry flies streamers and nms in the same day, try to catch one fish each way. That’s the kind of stuff I think generally speaking, the, the fly fishing community is moving more toward and I think that’s a healthy place to be. Dave (37m 33s): Yeah, it is. Yeah. It feels like, like you said, there’s a lot of the analogies of the golf and fly fishing, but yeah, you kind of have a club for every, you know, whatever you need, right. Whether that’s a, a euro nipping stick or a, you know, a trout spay or whatever that is. One of the rods, I was actually outcasting, I know you reviewed this one was the, a pesco on the fly, the L ray G six, it’s a, it’s got some unique, you know, I mean the six piece part of it is definitely unique, but I was outcasting it, I probably cast it for, you know, 30 minutes and, and recorded myself because I wanted to see Yeah, you know, what it looked like. And I haven’t done that really looked at my cast, I was like, wow, I, I’ve got some work to do. But tell us about the el ray, the G six, the review you did. Maybe talk about maybe some features, you know, just kinda what your overall take was. Kirk (38m 17s): Well again, I think we, you’re referring to fly lab and we’ve done some, that’s where we’re doing product reviews. Tim, who’s been my partner with handling trade for years, Andrew Stucky, we’ve launched this site called Fly Lab. It’s a fly lab fish and we do honest reviews of products there where we’re, it’s not so much what the manufacturer wants us to tell tell you, but it’s what we really feel about this stuff. So Romano was actually into that route and he passed it on to me. And obviously the unique appeal is the six pieces and you can take it anywhere, but I’m impressed that the, the action, you know, back in when I started it was two piece rod and you were making a big, big sacrifice if you went down to four pieces because they just couldn’t maintain that good casting action and, and durability and all that stuff. Kirk (39m 8s): Well, technology now and the resins and graphite that they use and everything, it is such that they can, and so I was impressed that I thought that the feel and the bend that went all the way down toward the grip was something that the responsiveness of the rod I think was something that I was more impressed with than I thought I would be. So yeah. You know, and then the components, you know, that’s where the money, the, the fancy bells and whistles and the rod tubes and frankly that’s where we’re gonna see pricing pressure if tariffs go through and aluminum Dave (39m 46s): Oh right. Kirk (39m 46s): More and all that stuff. So we’re gonna find out how much people really care about their aluminum rod tube. Dave (39m 52s): Oh right. Yeah. That’s, it’s all gonna get more expensive. Kirk (39m 55s): But those are things that I think this company’s doing a pretty good job with. So Dave (40m 2s): We wrapped up a 5,000 mile road trip to Wisconsin last year, and our project M from four wheel campers made the entire journey better than we imagined from remote camp size to spontaneous detours. We had the freedom to go where we wanted in total comfort for over 50 years. Four wheel campers has been building ultra durable, lightweight pop-up campers that fit almost any truck bed. The pop-up design sets up an under a minute and with the Project M like we have, I can set up and still use my tailgate and truck bed whenever I need it. Whether you want a minimalist setup like mine or something fully built out like the premium Orvis edition, four wheel campers as a camper to match your adventure goals. Dave (40m 42s): Do you have a truck head over to four wheel campers.com right now. Customize your camper, find a local dealer, see upcoming events and more. Trust me, you’re gonna love checking out four wheel campers. And what is the, you know, you mentioned the, the fly lab, how does that look when you get, you know, I think that’s part of the challenge, right? You get a, you know, maybe a rod or any piece of gear that maybe doesn’t stand up to the, you know, the review or how do you deal with that when you’ve got maybe some issues, you know what I mean? How do you do the review? Because I think that maybe is a struggle for some people. Kirk (41m 13s): If I really hate something I won’t, I just won’t write about it. Yeah. It’s too small a world and the walls are too thin in the fly fishing industry that, well it might make a splash if I really pan something. There are too many good things to focus on. Same things we were talking about with Trout Magazine. There are too many wins and good news to focus. Dave (41m 34s): Yeah. Well and I also think it seems like in this day and age with all the politics, you know, and it seems like that’s part of the problem out there is that like, just with social media and everything, right, the more negative you are and the more that seems like, the more views you get, right? You take aside and you, it’s like, so it’s growing this kind of a polarized thing, right? I feel like that’s not a good thing, right? Kirk (41m 56s): But on the other hand, you gotta tell the truth. So if there’s something that, if I, if it’s you know the, or we’ll talk about it right now, the Orvis Helios Rod, the new version four of Helios. I love the Rod, it’s great. I’m not sure that any fly rod in the world is worth 1200 bucks, right? That’s expensive. You can buy a shotgun for 1200 bucks or you can buy a set of golf clubs or you can buy a lot of things, skis, poles, bindings and boots. But on the other hand, it’s American made craftsmanship. I’ve been in the factory, I’ve seen the 50 some steps that it takes to make one rod and I know the thought that goes into it from design to production. Kirk (42m 39s): So just talking about things in balance I think is really important. And you know, if I think that the fighting butt was too small or could be a little bit longer, sure, I’m gonna say that, but by and large I focus on things that I really like and I, I really like the Orbis Helios rod. Just wish it weren’t quite as expensive as it’s Dave (43m 3s): Yeah these rods, they definitely, things don’t get cheaper necessarily. Right? There’s probably, I mean if you go back 20 years, I’m not sure what, what the prices look like, right? Were things a little bit less expensive, I guess things always are going up, right? Kirk (43m 16s): Yeah. But you know, I think it’s also one of the truths that nobody really says, but I’m willing to, is that the technology, like in golf, you know, every year they come out with a new driver, you know, and you gotta feel like you gotta go spend 500 bucks on a new driver. ’cause of course the driver’s gonna fix your game has nothing to do with your crappy Swing, right? So you do that and it’s the same with fly rods, you know, every, only, it’s every five years they’ll come out with a new improved whizzbang model. And what happens though is they don’t put the, the old technology that was the greatest thing since night baseball five years ago. They don’t put that in a vault and, and seal it up and never use it. Kirk (43m 56s): They just rebrand it as their mid price point rod. So like, I’ll tell you the, the Scott, the, the Scott session rod right now, it’s got cool greenish hues on it and so forth. You take it out and you cast it and cast it right next to a Scott Radian, which was the best thing going 10 years ago. And if you closed your eyes or blindfolded yourself, you wouldn’t really feel the difference. They’re, I think they’re essentially the same rod and this one costs, you know, 700 bucks instead of 1200 bucks. So people should be on the lookout for that. And I, and I, that’s been fun for me is to try to identify sleeper products that, you know, maybe are a little bit below the radar that people don’t really know about that are really worthy and will last you a lifetime and you’ll have a ball fishing with. Dave (44m 49s): Yeah, that’s a good idea. Finding those sleepers and yeah, like I was saying, they got the, some of the casting, you know, champions and Maxine McCormick is somebody who we’re, you know, hopefully gonna have on and hear some of her story about, you know, how a 14, 15-year-old girl wins, you know, the world championships, right. And and casting and part of it was this rod that they created. It was totally unique and fitted to her and she obviously was a hard worker. But yeah, I think it’s really interesting. I think the fly rod is interesting. I think that fly lines have obviously evolved with rods and there’s, you know, challenges and, and cool stuff there too. But, well let’s start to take it outta here with kind of our, you know, our conservation segment. We’ve already talked at the start and obviously TU is all about that. Dave (45m 32s): But are there a couple of topics that, you know, again, big ones we should be, that are on your radar, you’re really thinking about that we can, you know, you mentioned the public lands. Any other big ones coming up that people should be getting involved with? Kirk (45m 43s): One of the thoughts that I’ve been working on and kind of flushing out in my mind as an editor, the more I think about it, the more I believe that we as anglers, how we interact with the resources is in and of itself a conservation issue. Maybe second only to climate change. In other words, the pressure we put on a river collectively, how many fish we catch, how long we fight the fish, the techniques we use to, to catch the fish, the how we handle fish. You know, keeping them wet or you know, taking photos and all that stuff all together. Kirk (46m 24s): You know, at the end of the day if conservation by definition is really kind of a measurement of how many fish are gonna be in the river next year and the year after and the year after that, how we go about our pursuit of fishing is in and of itself a major conservation issue. And I think fortunately more anglers are taking stock in that and being self-aware and there’s a growing level of conscience about all that. And I think that’s something that we wanna keep pushing, not be heavy handed. People love to be taught how to fish and they hate to be told how to fish. You know, it’s a subtle difference. Kirk (47m 6s): But encouraging that conscience, realizing that there’s only so many cookies in the cookie jar and we all are sharing and not being a selfish angler and thinking about what you’re paying forward and how you’re doing that. I think that that’s kind of the, the wave of the future. So that’s, that’s my number one conservation Yeah. Stump that I’m standing on right now. Dave (47m 30s): That’s awesome. Yeah. And that goes for, and you mentioned a lot of things we can do out there, whether it’s keep ’em wet or you know, you hear all lots of different things, you know, keeping your, wetting your hands before you touch the fish and you know, how long you play the fish. There’s all sorts of things. Barbless is that something that you guys will be like, is there something coming up in, in an upcoming issue where you’re gonna be focusing on on that topic? Kirk (47m 55s): Yeah, absolutely. You know, we’ll, we’ll talk about trouble hooks and Oh trouble. Yeah. You know, ’cause spin fishing is fine and you know the where the regulations are so that people can keep and eat fish, that’s totally fine. But if you’re gonna just catch and release, you know, there’s really no room for trouble hooks. They do more damage than they’re worth. So if you’re gonna use a Panther Martin, great, just use a single hook on it, switch it over. But having said that, you know, we also need to make sure that the fly angler, even if you do all the right things, there’s a certain level of mortality associated with catch and release. You know, whether it’s 2%, 5%, 10%, whatever. Kirk (48m 37s): And a lot of that has to do with the water temperature, how long you fight the fish, what type of fish it is, the type of water you’re fighting them in, all that kind of stuff. But going and catching 50 fish in a day with barbless hooks and catching a leash and keeping your hands wet, you are still making an impact. You are still pressuring the resource and maybe more than the guy who goes out and catches one or two and puts ’em in a smoker and eats them. So we need to be respectful and understanding of all aspects and try to do what we can do to make sure that there’s sustainability as the popularity of the sport increases, which I think it is gonna continue to grow. Kirk (49m 21s): I saw some data last week that, you know, we’re up 4% all outdoors up 1% and some of ’em are flat, all fishing is actually down. Conventional fishing’s down a touch fly fishing’s up 4%, which is not screaming, but it’s moving in the right direction as we grow, it’s more and more important as we get younger people into the sport. That’s awesome. I want that. But more than anything ’cause they become stewards, but let’s make sure that we’re teaching the conscience as part of all that. Dave (49m 53s): Yeah, that’s part of all that. What is out of the, you mentioned 150,000, you know, people that are subscribed out of those, what percentage, you know, are most of those fly anglers or do you have a chunk of conventional or even other, you know, outdoor related people in there? Kirk (50m 9s): 97% of tribal, unlimited members are fly anglers. And 60% will say that they do both kinds of fish. So most of our members do all kinds of fishing, but 97% are Fly Angus. Dave (50m 25s): Yeah, that’s right. And that’s why the trouble hook issues or any of those, you can get that message out to that, those 60% and then, you know, you can move the needle a little bit, right? Kirk (50m 34s): Yeah, absolutely. But that’s why people ask, you know, why aren’t you run more stories about conventional fishing? Or why don’t you have a cover with a Panther Martin hanging outside of a brown Trout’s mouth? And I’m like, well, 97%. And they did do that. If you look at old trout magazines Oh really? From the eighties. Oh yeah, there’s treble hooks and meps and all that stuff. And it, it shows how we’ve learned and evolved and well for the better or worse in some ways. You can argue both sides. But yeah, it’s, it’s fun. So, but yeah, we we’re focused on, on fly fishing mostly, but open to other ideas too. Dave (51m 11s): Yeah. Gotcha. It reminds us again, on the fly lab, where can people go find, you know, what you mentioned about the El Ray reviewer? Any of the reviews you guys do? Yeah, Kirk (51m 20s): We do reviews and it’s also, there’s a membership program, so like people can get discounts on products by going there. So it’s just fly lab fish, FLY fish, fly lab Fish is our URL and you can go and we do a and sign up, you get a newsletter for free every other week and that doesn’t cost anything at all. And the reviews are on the site and everything. That’s all free access. But if you pay a small membership fee, 25 bucks, that opens the door to some discounts with our partners, which is how we float the boat. How we support the thing. Yeah. Dave (51m 57s): How you support it. And this is connected to, to you? Or is this a separate thing? Kirk (52m 2s): It’s a separate thing. I’ve done in partnership with Tim Romano and Andrew Stucky who are, well Andrew and I are cousins and Tim and I have been partners with Angling Trade, which covers the business of fly fishing Oh yeah. For like the last 20 years. So angling trade is gonna fold into fly lab and we’re gonna have a business specific section newsletter. Dave (52m 23s): Oh, gotcha. So angling trade is gonna become fly lab or they’ll become one. Kirk (52m 27s): Yeah, there’s, we’re gonna keep the angling trade section. It’s kinda like the business section of a newspaper, right? Yeah. That’ll be the angling trade section, but Fly Lab as it continues to grow, and it’s grown quite a bit in the last year. We’ve got, you know, 15,000 subscribers now and growing, hopefully more and more and more As it keeps going, it’s gonna, that’s gonna become the predominant brand and, and trade inside of that. Dave (52m 52s): Gotcha. So basically you go there, you get a bunch of, essentially the value would be gear reviews and discounts on, on gear, on Fly gear, Kirk (53m 1s): Yeah. Gear reviews, discounts. We also do, you know, those tips in there, you know, how to, where to travel, A little bit of everything. It’s kind of an online community, so Dave (53m 10s): Amazing. And to be Kirk (53m 11s): Honest with you, it’s, it’s kind of full circle. Like my day job obviously is Trout Unlimited and making Trout Magazine and, but this is my little bit of creative outlet where I get to say what I, yeah. What I really think, especially about products so much like this podcast has been, it’s been refreshing for me to say what I really think. Dave (53m 31s): Yeah, that’s amazing. That’s what I love about the podcast because I think that, again, like we said earlier in the podcast, we’ve gotten, you know, some hate mail occasionally, right. But that’s what’s great about it is that I feel like I am, you know, I’m the host and my goal as a host is to let my guests talk and tell their story and you know, even if, even if I don’t agree with the story, you know what I mean? Like, I just want to like hear your, what your story is and that’s what’s cool about, I think what I’ve always loved about the podcast. And it sounds like that’s what you’re trying to do at Fly Lab too. Yeah, Kirk (53m 59s): That’s right. We’re there to drop the puck, the game from there. Dave (54m 4s): Right. What about, we’re gonna get out here pretty quick, but you know, a couple other topics and things that have been coming up. So Patagonia, you know, the company, you know, we’re, we’re gonna be doing some stuff with ’em. They got this, you know, they’re kind of promoting their new waiters and or some the swift current kinda line stuff like that. But what’s your take on Patagonia? Do you, have you followed that company for a while? Do you kind of keep up with what they have going? Kirk (54m 26s): I love Patagonia. I’ve, you know, I just got a box yesterday from Nick Blixt, oh wait, see, I think I, I’m haven’t opened it yet ’cause it’s in my car still, but pretty sure that there are some waiters in there. Dave (54m 38s): There you go. There you go. Right. Kirk (54m 40s): I’ve heard wonderful things about the Swift current waiters so far. I’m eager to put ’em on and fishing them myself. Most importantly, obviously, you know, the ethos, you talk about conscience, right, right. And putting back and conservation, I mean, they, Pentagon is in its own league. Dave (54m 58s): Yeah. Nobody’s, nobody’s close right out there and fly fishing or really kind of in the world outdoor, right? Kirk (55m 4s): Well, yeah, I mean there are some other comp, don’t get me wrong. There are some other companies that do a lot of really great Orvis, 5% into conservation. There are some companies that do really good things, you know, and Swing above their weight. Scott does great st stuff. I think, you know, I, I can go on and on. I’m not trying to Fish Pond does nice stuff, but Patagonia pretty much wrote the book on that. And I have nothing but respect and respect for the products themselves, how they’ve lasted, how I’ve fished in ’em, and how they’re made, the processes, the, the overall conscience is something to be admired and acknowledged. Kirk (55m 49s): And I think that that’s just the way it is. That’s Dave (55m 52s): Right. Yeah. I love Yvonne Chenard. He said his quote, we had him on the podcast and he said, you know, basically that they’ve done everything the opposite of other businesses throughout his entire career and it’s always worked out even better. You know what I mean? When they’ve done the opposite, everybody says, you know, don’t do this. They do the opposite. It seems like that’s, he’s such a unique guy, right? From Yeah. From being the dirt bagger, sleeping out of his car to having the same car, to giving his company away because he doesn’t wanna be a billionaire. Right. It’s kind of this unique, amazing, inspiring story. Kirk (56m 22s): Yeah, it is. And I think that that, to put a wrapper on it like that is fly fishing in a nutshell is that it’s really about the story. Fly fly fishing isn’t about pulling on fish, fly fishing’s about the people, the community, the places, the landscapes, the natural beauty, all those things we wrapped together into a compelling story that evolves. And that’s to me what Fly Fishing’s all about. Yeah. Dave (56m 51s): Perfect. Well I think we can leave it there Kirk, you know, again, I would love to chat with you, you know, down the line again if we get an opportunity. But have we missed anything today, anything you mentioned Fly Lab, anything else you have going or topics or anything you wanna shed light on before we get outta here? Kirk (57m 5s): No, I’ve got a book coming out in a year from now, and so I won’t talk about it now, but I’ll tease that, that it’s in process. It’s gonna be a cool one. Yeah, Dave (57m 14s): Well, what give it guess a little upside, because this episode we’re gonna get probably, you know, a year from now is gonna come quick. Just give us a rough idea. Did you have a title yet or do you know what Kirk (57m 22s): The rough Well, yeah, we’re gonna call it a fishable feast, like Movable Feast and it’s, it’s Food and Fly Fishing adventures from around the world. And I’m doing it in partnership with Matt Zinsky. I just let the cat out of the bag. That’s the first, it’s been published by Oli and it’s a Spring, spring title 26 and it’s kinda like Anthony Bourdain goes fishing. So hopefully people will like it and get some, some of the flavors of that and it will remind them of places they’ve been or inspire them to go to places and fish and, and, and find those adventures. Dave (58m 2s): Perfect. All right, we got a little, some unique, some new stuff on the podcast here. This is, this is awesome. Good. All right, Kirk. Well, like we said, we’ll send everybody out to tu.org if check in with you there or Fly Lab Fish. And yeah, this has been really great to catch up with you finally here and get an update and hopefully maybe down the line we will get follow up with you and see what else you have going new. But appreciate all your time today. Kirk (58m 25s): I appreciate the opportunity and really, you know, wish you luck and thanks so much. Dave (58m 31s): All right. If you haven’t yet, go check in with Kirk, go subscribe, get a membership to Trout Unlimited and you will get, one of the big bonuses is a subscription to Trout Magazine. So everything we talked about here, everything coming up, it’s all in there. And all you gotta do is check in with Trout Unlimited. You can also check in with Kirk at some of the other stuff he has going, let ’em know you heard this podcast and let ’em know. And if it’s, if the book’s out, go and pick up that book. All right. If you’re interested, wetly Swing Pro, this is our membership group, go to wetly Swing dot com slash pro, sign up there and we’ll follow up with you on details when we launch this out for the next, the next cohort. If you wanna be part of the next cohort that goes out with Wetly Swing Pro, you can do that right now. Dave (59m 15s): Sign up there wetly Swing dot com slash pro and I’ll follow up with you on details. Big announcement next week for us. We are launching the Project Healing Waters big trip next week to the White River, and this is an awesome event that we’re doing with Project Healing Waters. Really excited about this one. If you, if you’re interested in supporting one of the best groups out there, again, check in next week. We’ll have a great episode to share all of the details. All right, that’s all I have for you. I appreciate you for listening all the way till the end. I appreciate you for listening to this episode and if you have any questions, check in with me anytime. I hope today, if it’s morning, if it’s afternoon, or if it’s evening. You’re having a great day and I look forward to talking to you on the next episode. Outro (59m 55s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly, Swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly Swing dot com.