Eric (1s): But the guys that are like kind of agro and like, I haven’t got a fish in two days. Like, what am I doing wrong? Do I need this fly? Do I need this tip? I never see those guys catch fish. Like they don’t get ’em. For whatever reason I, and I don’t know they need to do a study or some shit ’cause they’ve never got ’em. They won’t ever get ’em and they’ll continue to not get them. Then somebody the same day in the same stretch gets three and they’re just like, oh yeah, it was a beautiful day. Like I never changed my fly. Brian (39s): Welcome to In The Bucket, the podcast that explores the culture of spay fishing in the Pacific Northwest. A spectacular land of mountains and wild rivers where every cast has a story to tell. I’m your host Brian Ska. In today’s show, we have the return visit from Veteran Guide and industry professional Eric Leininger. You may recall Eric was on the show back in In the bucket, episode number five with Stu Fox All and Scoop Mason. Today Eric is gonna be joined by his good buddy, Zach Carruthers, the guy who stepped aside from a successful music career to follow and share a passion for fly fishing as he pursues a new career as a guide. So yeah, we’ve got old guide and new guide perspectives and some good entertainment coming your way today. Brian (1m 22s): Expect adult language, some great fishing tips, more than a few laughs and a peek behind the scenes with two of the most interesting guide characters in the industry. Welcome folks. This is gonna be a heck of a fun show. I’ve got Eric Leininger and Zach Carruthers. Eric, let’s start with you. Why don’t you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Eric (1m 45s): Yeah, happy to be back. We did one a while ago. Tons of fun. I’m, I live down outside of Portland, Oregon in Oregon City. I’ve been a fly fishing guide. This will be my 15th year and I work for Northwest Fly Fishing Outfitters, also here in Portland, Oregon. Yeah, we chase all sorts of species out here. We got a good crew at the shop, pretty straightforward. I love to fish. I got great clients. Life is good. 3 (2m 11s): And I’m Zach Caruthers. I also work at Northwest Fly Fishing Outfitters. I am also a guide, however, a brand new one I’ve been guiding for just man, just about a year actually coming up on it. Yeah, took a left turn. I’ve been, I’ve been a professional studio musician and touring musician in a band called Portugal, the Man for the last 24 years. And I decided to give that up and go fishing ’cause you know, it’s better than work. But then I have a, clearly have a habit of turning hobbies into job. So yeah, now I take people fishing for a living. Just getting started. 3 (2m 51s): Eric tells me how to do it and I ignore him. Brian (2m 54s): Perfect. Nice. You guys are a pretty good combo like Batman and Robin, but you work at the shop together, your buddies, you fish together, but you’ve also got a podcast coming out, don’t you? 3 (3m 5s): We do take it. We gotta, yeah, we, we’ve started, Eric and I talk a lot and it’s horrible and, and so people, people like that kind of thing. We just go off on crazy long tangents. Maybe him a little bit more than me, but he’s good at it and it’s interesting and we just, we enjoy podcasts. I enjoy listening to conversations. Yeah. Between just a couple people and man, it’s awesome. We have no idea what it’s gonna be about Dewey. Eric (3m 33s): Not really. 3 (3m 34s): We got a pretty good name though. Eric (3m 36s): Yeah. You know, people might have seen our, our Friday night flies or whatever. We did that for God, five or six years, something like that. Yeah, I think six a year in the shop and then after COVID hit five years just, you know, through Instagram and stuff. And you know, to be fair it did start as a fly time evening like most people have on the internet. And then as COVID came and kind of took everybody’s life over and the glass of wine turned into like a bottle, there was a lot of rage ranting going on and you know, a lot of people stuck at home. So we got kind of a good following with that and everybody stuck around, you know, after that. Now just with time limits and just life, just doing, being here on Friday nights and, and doing all that and we still may do it, we’d usually do it, you know, in the wintertime or whatever the Friday night flies thing. Eric (4m 23s): But we thought we could just do something different. You know, always evolving, trying different stuff, throwing spaghetti against the wall, just having fun and Zach’s right. I mean, me and him are just chopping shop, you know, all the time about stuff and you know, there’s a million really good podcasts out there and, and we’re just gonna add to that and hopefully have a little bit different value of just kind of our, some of our backgrounds as somebody who’s been guiding for a long time, somebody that’s getting new to the game. Kind of a cool little background with Zach leaving that tour and just kind of some cool stories in there. Not so much gonna have guests. We’re just gonna kind of talk about local fishing in the Pacific Northwest and you know, everybody wants to hear kind of guide stories, you know, oh, what happened here, what happened there. Eric (5m 5s): We’re probably gonna talk about that stuff. Just change names and locations. I mean, we’re not gonna shit all over anybody ’cause we like our clients, but there’s quite a few odd things that happen out on the river. And so yeah, we’re not trying to make a million dollars. We think we’re gonna, you know, break the bank with like, you know, take down, you know, Joe Rogan or the, you know, some type of podcast out there. We’re just doing something ’cause we want to, and yeah, hopefully people tune in, listen to it, enjoy it, get some feedback. Brian (5m 32s): So Eric, the last time you were on here, we, we talked quite a bit about your experience guiding in Alaska at the good, the bad, the ugly. I thought we were gonna have a, a high level discussion about fly tying and different types of tinsel and at, you know, that type of thing. But we really kind of got into, let’s call it your start as a guide in Alaska. And you know, I don’t know if Zach’s heard that. Oh hopefully it, it, it doesn’t scare him away from ever working in Alaska, but 3 (5m 60s): I’m from Alaska, but that does sound gnarly, man. Lodges in Alaska sounds super gnarly. I feel like I have to like, you know, cut my teeth on it. I feel like I’m not, can’t truly ever call myself a guide until I at least go to a couple seasons up there. We’ll see. Brian (6m 16s): So you grew up in Alaska, where are boats? 3 (6m 18s): In Wasilla hour north of Anchorage. Cool. Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was fun. I love it up there. And I, I always tell people I thought I was a really good fly angler. Turns out I am just from Alaska and there’s a lot of fish and you can catch them very easily. I came down here and boy it was harder. So I went into the shop and met Eric and, and yeah, the rest is history. Brian (6m 41s): So let’s talk about this a little bit, Zach. So you, you know, you grew up in Alaska, you were fishing as a kid, fly fishing as a kid. Yeah. Obviously found tremendous success as a musician traveling the world. At what point did fly fishing become part of the story again for you? 3 (6m 56s): It was probably about eight or nine years ago. Basically when we started the band, we were very, we gave up everything. We lost good paying jobs, dropped outta college, lost girlfriends, dogs. We gave everything up and we just got in a van and went and we made no money. We didn’t have houses or apartments or anything for a decade. And we slowly started. You don’t really realize it at the time. But I finally, we started just making a little bit of money eventually, like 10 years in. And I finally realized all my previous loves that I’d given up, like fly fishing and snowboarding. I had completely just abandoned and was just being a band guy. 3 (7m 38s): And I kind of realized like, oh holy shit, I can, I could buy a fly rod again. I can buy a snowboard. And so I did and I went into the shop that we work at now and I bought a Winston. ’cause at the time, I, I didn’t have a girlfriend or a wife or kids or anybody to get mad at me. So I bought a few really nice rods while I could. And, and yeah, I took ’em on tour everywhere and then I realized it was just trying to, to sneak away every chance I got. I didn’t sleep very much. I’d be up late partying, staying up all night. And then I’d get up at 6:00 AM rent a car, buy a fishing license in the parking lot and you know, go find a little river and try to figure it out. Brian (8m 17s): That’s awesome. Did you guys ever play in Whistler? 3 (8m 19s): No, but we played past it a little bit. We played a really rad festival. We played Vancouver all the time and then we played in Pemberton, the Pemberton Festival and that Brian (8m 31s): Oh yeah, right on. 3 (8m 32s): Was awesome. So not quite Whistler, but some in the close-ish. Brian (8m 38s): You know what, Dave? Dave from Wetly swing, Dave Dave’s done six or 700 episodes and every now and again I’ll dig into one of them. And I remember there’s, there’s one with, I wanna say the guy’s name’s Conway Bowman. He’s the mako shark fisherman guy. And I guess he was in a punk band. And yeah, he tells a story in the podcast about being on tour and driving over a bridge in Vancouver, likely the Lionsgate Bridge and looking out the window and seeing a guy out there fly fishing, probably the mouth of the Capano River. And, and that was kind of when a switch sort of flipped and he was like, Hey, you know, the band life is cool, this punk rock stuff we got going on, but, but I really wanna get out there and fish more. Brian (9m 22s): Was there a moment like that for you, Zach? 3 (9m 24s): Every single day since I got back into fishing, I just, yeah, I mean the, the real moment was we had a bunch of kind of drama going on in the band. There was always a lot of stress, just, I was very anxious. I wasn’t a happy person. I ended up getting sober about three years ago and when I did that I kind of, it just shifted my perspective on a lot of things. And there was a lot of things going on with the band, a lot of, a lot of ego, a lot of trying to be cool, got a little too fat and comfortable with things like always flying first class, always like eating really, really decadent meals. And it was just, it was just absolutely ridiculous. 3 (10m 5s): And I had that back surgery, I had some really terrible back pain and so I, I had to take a tour off and get surgery and so it was the first time ever that I missed a show or anything like that. And I was just like, guys I am, I, I had gotten injured and I just, I couldn’t sleep, I couldn’t do anything. I was miserable. And so I had to take a tour off and I realized that I just, I didn’t miss it that much. I love my guys. I love traveling, I love touring, I love playing shows, but I just really needed a good long break and nothing heals me like nature. And then once I started fishing, I’m a, I’m an addict and so I just, I want to do it every day. Brian (10m 47s): Guidings just a real good excuse to be out there every day, isn’t it? 3 (10m 49s): Exactly. That’s, I’m just trying to like, so nobody will yell at me or being like, oh, you’re lazy and you just go fish. I’m like, no man, I’m working. And dude, it’s hard, y’all know, like I always knew it was, but you never really know something until you get into it and like, damn dude, it’s a lot. It’s, it’s fantastic. I feel great. I love it. I’m, when I, my first like week guiding, I remember being, it was super punk rock, a a, one of my guys in the band asked me how, how I was liking it and I was like, dude, I’m super tired, I’m sore, I smell like shit and I love it and I’m like, it kind of reminds me of like the old punk rock, like in a van before your first class and tour buses. 3 (11m 34s): I’m like, it really felt like I was back in the van just playing die bars again and it was very real. Brian (11m 40s): And Eric, you, you got your start as we said before fishing or guiding in Alaska, right? And now you do a variety of guiding for a variety of species, correct? Eric (11m 49s): Yeah, I do. I work nine seasons in ak. But to touch back real quick on what Zach said, you know, he’s like, oh you know, it’s his first you’re guiding and he is talked to his buddy, he is exhausted, you know, like just a little stressed, not bad but you know, dirty and just, you know, sore and all that stuff. I was talking to Colby a couple months ago, you know, we were just talking about it never gets easier, you know, you’re just, and that’s not like a oh wo is me. It’s just like you gotta stay on your grind. You gotta become a better guide every year. You gotta dial your program and e everything can be tighter all the time, you know, everything can be a little better. But I was like, you know, part of me is a little, I mean a little jealous in the aspect of like the guys that are just getting started. Eric (12m 33s): I think it’s Colby’s second year guiding Zach’s first Spencer’s been guiding a couple years at the shop too. Like when I was first getting into it, all that grind, like I look back at those years fondly now, like you don’t know that it sucks really bad. Like you know that it’s actually bad but you don’t know that it’s like, that’s like kind of where you make it or break it. Yeah. So it’s kind of nice to be able to look back on that, you know, with the new species and stuff that you kind of touched on there. That kind of brought me back into that. ’cause like I’ve been doing carp now like five or six years, tiger musky, five or six years getting into the bass thing. I’ve fished in forever but I haven’t guided for ’em, you know, that much. And so like learning all the different water flies, techniques, seasons, all the ins and outs of those species and, and really putting a lot of hours in to, to make it, you know, beneficial for the people that I take fishing. Eric (13m 24s): So their chances go up and I can kind of tweak the program a little bit depending on their skill level and kind of what they can do. Kind of brought me back into that realm, which is really sweet. Just gets you kind of pumped up. It’s not just like plug and play stuff where it’s like, oh steel heading. Like yeah, hey look, we’re gonna, if they’re there, you know, they’re gonna either eat it or not, you know. But I know exactly in this 10 foot space on a bunch of spots on this river where they’re at. Like I know if you haven’t thrown a spay rod that much, I can tune you up in like 40 minutes. You’re gonna be thrown at 60, 70 feet. Like I know I can do that stuff. Well this other stuff is kind of new. It’s like, okay, well like let’s try to get you to figure out how to double haul an 11 weight and like, you know, like how can you throw this, you know, change your sidearm and kind of skip it under that like branch. Eric (14m 11s): ’cause there’s a big bass that lives there, you know, like, oh here we’re gonna try to do a little bit tech technique with these carb ’cause they’re super spooky and like how little you can move on the boat. And so there’s all these different factors that have come in the last five, six years that I never didn’t have fun guiding, but it’s all this brand new stuff that’s like, oh shit, like second chapter, Here we go. And, and I think overall it just makes you a better angler and, and a better guide. So yeah, in a year I’ll chase winter steelhead. Then I go into kind of a little bit of pre spawn bass that piggybacks onto, we have Tiger Musk year in the Pacific Northwest and then carp goes through like a little bit of September back to summer steelhead rinse and repeat the following year. Eric (14m 52s): So I’m lucky that we have so many species in this area that you can catch on fly. And it’s been fun introducing like, you know, all my, my steel header clients and stuff that rode it, you know, up the, the good years and the bad years for so long to be like, hey, after, you know, really, you know, a good or bad either way. Tough winter, it always is. It’s like, hey, here come a bunch of species that they are eating food with, reckless abandoned, let’s just go find them. So it’s been fun. Brian (15m 25s): Zach, what are you primarily guiding for? 3 (15m 28s): Mostly trout. Trout and steelhead. I’m starting off with the easy stuff. I and just the, the stuff that I know I like to fish for a lot of other species. Carp fishing with Eric is so fun. His carp program is just killer and something i I had never experienced, it was like brand new to me. But yeah, I do, I do trout since I’m a new guide and since I come from music, one of my roles I kind of took on in the fly shop was bringing new people in that I have no experience fly fishing. So every month I kind of teach the intro classes. Anytime somebody brand new comes through, a lot of times they get sent my way. I’m, I’m cool dealing with all the tangles. 3 (16m 8s): I love seeing the look on somebody’s face when they catch a face for their first time. And I really want to introduce people to nature and the outdoors into this, you know, this sport that’s helped me through so many things. So that’s, that’s kind of my, that’s my my thing. And so obviously I kind of do that with trout. It’s the easiest thing. It’s not like, hey, you wanna get into, you wanna get into fishing? Here’s a 13 and a half foot rod, let’s go find a winter. Steelhead Brian (16m 35s): The gateway drug. And we know how Eric feels about trout fishing. 3 (16m 38s): Oh I know. He’s taught me everything he goes about. Well Eric (16m 42s): I mean, I think I’ve been on enough podcasts and done enough talks. I’ll just to be clear again, when I do get to go out to Wyoming, Montana, I can hop in whatever river knee deep and walk up and down a free Stone river and bang banks to either streamers or hatches. Right? And they’re eating dry flies. I, I do like, I enjoy it. We just don’t have a lot of that in Oregon that I know of. There’s a lot of place like the Deschutes and we have the fall and the crooked and the matulis and our hatches. But it’s not like you can’t get in there and get after it. The Deschutes you can, but like it’s pretty gnarly weight. Like I’m not trying to kill myself for a trout. So the bonus of that too is that for being kind of senior guide at the shop, I take zero trout trips. Eric (17m 24s): So like all my clients that wanna go trout fish, they don’t go with me. They get spread out through the shop. I go with Zach, go with Colby, go with Spencer, go with Gabe, go, you know, with Matt, whoever, all these other guys that really enjoy Guiding Trout. So they’re like in it like, you don’t want me, I’m just thinking the whole time. This is so stupid. I hate this and I hate you. Like, I wanna get outta here. So these guys are like, I love this, I love you, I love everything. Let’s have a great time. So it’s really good for the client ’cause you get to go with that person. Just like Colby’s never gonna guide carp. He thinks they’re trash. Like he, I won’t even take ’em anymore ’cause he blows shots on Giant Carp and he just laughs and goes, ah, whatever. ’cause he doesn’t give a shit, which still makes me mad. You can tell I haven’t let that go and I won’t no matter how many facts were presented before me. Eric (18m 9s): And then you got like, you know, whatever, like, I’m not gonna go, you know, do the trout thing. Zach’s not gonna go get a boat and do the Musky thing. It’s all kind of spread out. A lot of us don’t go to the coast. Kobe and Kobe and Matt do Spencer’s really into Euro mph. He’s got a little niche thing that he’ll take people and teach ’em how to do that. So the nice thing about the shop is having as many guides as we do. I think we have like six or something like that. Full-time guides working at the shop. We all play well together. 4 (18m 41s): Located in Boulder, Colorado, in Trepid Camp Gear is dedicated to designing and manufacturing the best and most highly engineered automotive camp gear on the market. Intrepid Camp Gear specializes in rooftop tents and aluminum cargo cases designed for skis, rods, hunting gear, and any other gear you may be hauling. Elevate your adventure with Intrepid Camp gear right now. Head over to wetly swing.com/intrepid right now. That’s intrepid I-N-T-R-E-P-I-D Intrepid Camp Gear. This year I ventured into the heart of Eastern Idaho’s Yellowstone Teton territory where the fish were larger than life and the waters held the secrets of the best fly fishing out west with crystal clear rivers like the Henry’s Fork and the South Fork of the Snake and enough lakes to keep you going all year long. 4 (19m 27s): Make your way to Yellowstone Teton territory and embark on a journey to one of North America’s finest fly fishing destinations. It’s time to experience eastern Idaho for yourself and support this podcast at the same time. 1 (19m 44s): Time Brian (19m 45s): Is Euro infant fly fishing? 1 (19m 46s): I think so. Eric (19m 48s): So, and this isn’t me just being like, I mean, I’ve made bumper stickers about this shit. Everybody’s seen all my stuff. Whatever I, I don’t wanna seem, I’m shitting on it. I will lean to a senior guide who, I won’t say his name, I’m just kidding. It’s Brian Sylvie. And I asked him, and he carries one in his boat and I’m like, well, do you think it’s fly fishing? And he being kind, you know, Sylvie very, what’s the word I’m looking for? It’s Brian (20m 12s): A classy guy. Eric (20m 12s): Yeah, whatever. Yeah. And just like very like, not independent, but like broad, like pleasing everybody, right? He just goes, well, for it to be fly fishing, I think you need to be able to like, make a fly cast, like an actual cast with a fly line. He’s like, you don’t, it’s just a flop. There’s not really fly line. It’s like a long tippet section that you kind of put together. He’s like, so I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s fly fishing, that’s its own thing. It’s your own mfin. Like it’s, you can have a separate subcategory. So that’s what I kind of like go to like, when people are like, oh, it’s fly fishing. I’m like, I’m not gonna argue with you. I I don’t care either way. Honestly. I’m glad you’re catching a bunch of fish. And if it gets people into, into just being outdoors around fish, there’s probably a percentage of people that will do that. Eric (20m 56s): And only that their whole lives, right? Because they’re just like, I rail I catch 20, 30 fish a day. There’s a certain person that that’s their goal. I think the majority of people will do that and then they’ll just naturally as human beings are like, is there a harder way? Is there a different way? Is there a more fun way? Like, I’ve scratched the itch, I’ve caught a bunch of fish, I’ve caught really big fish. What else can you do? And then there’s, you know, dry flies and swing it soft tackles a dry dropper or whatever. So I think it’s like, kinda like you’re saying like a gateway drug. You’re like, Hey, here’s like, and I’m not saying it’s easy, the guys that are really good at it, like, you give me a euro infra. Yeah, I’ll catch a trout probably on it. Well, I catch a ton. Probably not. So I don’t know what I’m doing. I don’t know the technique, right? It’s basically tight lining. Eric (21m 37s): I mean, okay, enough angler, I could probably get it done. But the people that are really into it that know the diameters, the lengths of the, the line and the tbit that they’re putting together, the weights of each nph. I mean, it’s really scientific. So as much shit as I give to it, I, I definitely respect it. The only downside I would say to Euro NPH is that there’s gotta be a mortality factor because so many fish are getting caught. And so I worry about when people can’t catch ’em when it’s really hot or they’re not willing to eat. Kind of is force feeding a little bit. But again, I’m not perfect. There’s a bunch of shit I, I mean I bass fish. Do you think if I see a 10 pound small on a bed, I’m not throwing a fly at it. I’m not gonna be like, you know what, it’s spawning. Eric (22m 20s): I’m gonna leave that fish alone. Which I would do on salmon and steelhead and trout and pretty much every other species out there. But for some reason bass, it’s like, fucking fair Dan, bro. Get it in there now. And I probably still would because I haven’t caught 10 pound Molly. Now, maybe in two or three years after I’ve caught a bunch of big fish, I probably wanna bed fish. I’m not even really around them when they’re beding down, that’s I’ve shifted over to Tiger Muskie. But you know, that’s what I’m saying. I I’m not perfect. I’m, I’m making mistakes all over the place, right? So 3 (22m 51s): We’re human, you know? Yeah. Little yin, little yang. Brian (22m 56s): So that’s kinda the, one of the neat things about fly fishing is there’s all these little areas you can get into. You got your Euro MFer with their knee pads and their chest packs keeping score for how many they can catch the most little guys. Then you got like the steelhead guys, you like fish for a week and maybe get one if they’re lucky. The bass thing, you’ve talked about the tiger muskie. There’s so many different things. The warm water, saltwater stuff. I think people fish for different reasons. And you know, Zach, I gotta go back to this ’cause it’s, it’s such a neat story to me. Yeah. That, that was crazy. You know, you’re traveling the world, living the rockstar life. You guys won a Grammy. Yeah. And you know, you, you had the, I think the, the hot song of the summer and, and now you’re, you’re happy working as a fishing guide catching trout. 3 (23m 40s): Yeah, it’s, I’m easy to please. Yeah. And, and yeah man, you play music is awesome. Playing shows is rad. I I love that. It was, it was super scary. I mean, financially, honestly, like I, I made, I was making really good money playing music and now I don’t anymore. And I am, I’m a brand new guy. I know there’s like you, like I get, when I have trips, it pays very well. I just need to get them. And so when you got like a, when you got a full thing, like you can definitely like have a, you can make a nice living and I don’t need a nice living. I do gotta like, would like to keep my house and make my mortgage payment. So it was scary doing that. 3 (24m 21s): And obviously just in your forties, completely switching gears just to 180 degrees, just like I’m doing this. And a lot of people kinda thought I was a little crazy because of how rare it is to make it in the music industry. But dude, it’s, it’s rare to make it in this industry too. It’s, and when I first started playing music and I quit, I had a decent job. I was going to college. And when I decided to quit everything and play music, just something inside me told me to do it and just go play music every day. And I had to listen to it. And that same voice had just been saying, dude, just go fish and you’ll figure it out. 3 (25m 1s): And I can’t, I can’t ignore that voice. And so I, I do it. Brian (25m 5s): So I gotta dig into it a little bit more. So, you know, you’re starting out, you guys are, you know, for the love of it, traveling around, playing dive bars, you said in a van. At what point did you look out into the crowd and go, oh, we’re stars now? 3 (25m 22s): I don’t know, there’s a million of ’em. The very first time I remember going to a city that I’d never been to and seeing some kids singing, singing our lyrics back at me like that was a big deal. Granted, we were playing a house show in a basement just up in Bremerton, Washington. But I was, I was like, shit, dude, we made it the first time we ever played the Troubadour in Los Angeles. I mean, you’re never there. It’s always, you know, we’ve played Madison Square Garden is once you’ve, once you’re the biggest band, like, oh, I wanna play in the moon. Fucking we’re, we’re never happy. And, and that was a lot of the problems. There’s always something more to do in a good way and in a bad way. But yeah, there was definitely, it was all very gradual and so nothing, nothing really smashed. 3 (26m 9s): None of us got weird or not approachable. We’re all pretty normal guys. And that’s a small town in Alaska. Like they’d, they’d slap the shit outta you if you start acting, acting like that. And, and we do that to each other. Like, we don’t, we don’t wanna be like that. So, but then we had a huge hit song that we want to Grammy for and that definitely changed some things, but it was, it was also kind of cool because everybody knew the song, but not everybody knew the band. And so it didn’t get crazy. I’m not pumping gas and having TMZ take pictures of me. And it’s, it was all fine and, but we ended up just really overdoing it at that point. 3 (26m 51s): We kind of said yes to everything. I walked outta my house one day and I didn’t come home for like two and a half years pretty much. And I kind of freaked out. I’m like, I need, I need to have a balanced life. Even if what I do is amazing, I need to do the opposite. I need to do other things and I need to be outside. Dude, I love, I just love being outside and I, it’s too much nightlife. It’s too much hanging out with people. Too much time spent in restaurants, airplanes. I love to travel. I love food, but I just, I need less. I need water. Brian (27m 24s): Eric, so far as fishing guides go, you’re probably the closest thing to a rockstar. I know. I mean, you’re, you’re the elder statesman of the guide team down there, it sounds like. And you’re doing a lot of hosted travel now too, right? We, we see a for a few weeks a year up here. You got great clients, everybody wants to fish with you, you know, you’re, you’re wearing next year’s gear. People always wanna get your opinion on stuff. How has that affected your personal fishing? Can you still get out on the river and and be undisturbed or do, do people always wanna try and get a picture with you or something? Eric (27m 55s): Yeah, not quite that. I feel super fortunate. Everything that’s happened to me, it’s a lot of hard work. But like, there’s so many people that helped me along the way. I could do a, I could do a Oscar speech now just thanking all the people that helped me. I mean, there’s so many people in the industry that whatever thought I had something to offer and took a chance on me. Whether that was jobs or ambassadorships or trips or shoots or something like that, you know, it was pretty cool, you know, being at the shop. Like I touched on having such a core team. Like I, I really trust those guys. They’re my buddies, you know, and we had a little, not falling out, but things got weird for a minute there. And so I, I reached out and I, I called everybody individually and I’m like, Hey man, like, I’m feeling kind of odd or whatever, what’s happening. Eric (28m 44s): I had gone down to one day a week instead of two. I had just got back a couple months prior from the ski of shoot, some stuff was happening or whatever. And I mean, both Spencer and Kolby both were just like, oh, hey man, you’re, you’re flying a little high. And I was like, what? Because that’s my biggest fear, you know, I, I am gonna cuss a little bit here, but for people to think that I think I’m somebody is my biggest fucking fear on the planet. Like they just don’t 3 (29m 14s): Know totally. Eric (29m 15s): They don’t know. They see successful Eric. They see like, confident in an ad. Eric, I am panicking 24 7. I mean, not in real time, but like, am I gonna be kept on this year? Like, am I gonna break my leg and not be able to guide this summer? Like, is my boat gonna fall through? Like, are people not gonna wanna fish with me anymore? Like all these little things that everybody has. Like, I think about that shit too and for my like close friends to be like, Hey, like we think you got a ego. I was like, what in the fuck have I been doing? And it turns out miscommunication, which is a lot of things, me going down to one day a week they thought I wanted to leave the shop. I was giving a day up because we had so many new employees that I thought, hey, for me, they’re just starting guiding, right? Eric (30m 1s): If they could work one day in a shop that’s an extra a hundred bucks, that’ll put a full tank of gas in their truck, right? Like, I don’t need that. I’ve got a pretty full guide schedule. I could go down to one day a week. But we didn’t talk about it. So they’re like, oh, he doesn’t think he needs to shop anymore. He’s bailing. I’m like, oh, I’m helping these guys out. So it was so funny, you know, we had this big talk, but also like, I took into consideration what they’re saying. I was like, may I’m socially awkward, I got undiagnosed, all sorts of shit probably. But like, I don’t do a really good job at conveying what I feel well a lot of the time. And so like, I just wanted the best for them. They were hoping I would do well, something was going wrong. Eric (30m 42s): I wasn’t, I wasn’t doing a good job as a whatever, the longest guy, I don’t wanna say a head guy, the longest employee that guides at the shop. So it’s cool to have that sounding board. So I really value that at, at the shop. And that’s another reason why I never wanna quit. ’cause I, I want that core group around me to be us bounce ideas off or vice versa. Not to fucking throw Kolby under the bus, but when he first started, he was shitting the bed. And I’m like, you have a lot of potential, dude, you, you gotta fucking suck it up buttercup. He’ll even tell you that pissed him off. He’s like, I’m gonna fuck this guy. And he got real spiteful and started kicking ass like I’d never seen. And he’s doing so awesome the last two years. Like this kid’s grinding, doing a great job for clients, finding all these neat fisheries floats. Eric (31m 25s): He showed me a bunch of shit today, bass Fisher. And I’m like, why aren’t they there? He is like, I don’t know, I’m getting ’em in this type of water. I’m like, what? And then we tuned him up. I was like, fucking hell yeah dude, you’re killing it. So I appreciate when people are like, Hey man, like talk to a fair amount of people on Instagram. I’m not like, oh, my dms are filled, not the case. But when people compliment me like that, I, I really appreciate it. I have tried to, you know, do a good job, you know, in this industry and lead by example and whatever. But the last thing I want is people to think that I think I’m somebody. Yes, I do not. And with that being said, yeah, I get to fish all the time. This face, when it has sunglasses on and a cowboy killer sticking out does not say come talk to me. Eric (32m 7s): It just doesn’t. It doesn’t say, Hey, let’s hang out. Also, fun fact, I may not be able to recognize faces at 45 years old. I just learned that about myself. This girl I’m seeing right now, I couldn’t remember what she looked like. The first, like five times we hung out, like we’d hang out, I’d get home, I’d think, God, she’s awesome. And then I try to pitch her face and I couldn’t do it then. And this happens with clients a lot. If I only fish ’em once, I’ll be texting ’em. I’m like, who is this? I see him at the boat ramp, no clue. Okay. And then like I’ll see him again. I’ll be like, I think so. And I thought it was just me being stupid or an asshole or whatever. I don’t know. Eric (32m 48s): Then I do this float, this guy waves to me this last week and I’m like, okay. And he’s like, Eric, I go, yeah. He’s like, Hey, it’s Sean. And I’m like, I still don’t know. He says his name. He’s like, yeah, you took me and my daughter fishing on this river like two years ago. I was like, oh shit, Sean. Like, I know this guy. I’m looking right at his face. I don’t know. And so I started telling this girl Natalie, that she’s like, oh. And she sent me this little link and she’s like, you may have this. And it’s like, you don’t recognize face. So I was like, dude, you gotta be shit me more, more stuff. Anyways, I don’t know where I was going with that, but yeah, long story, long and not going anywhere. Eric (33m 28s): I’m lucky to be in the predicament of I am and to be able to travel to, so to get back to your original question, I’ll get there. I, I’ve been a fair amount of places, not all over or whatever. But yeah, you know, coming up to the Chena, that’s like, I’ve caught my first deal head in Canada. Like I had to go to Canada to catch my first deal head. I got like spanked for a year and a half in Oregon. And one of your ex guides, terrific man, JB old Justin Barry took me to the bulky, that’s where I caught my first steelhead after knowing him for like 15 seconds. That’s a whole story in the thing. I knew that guy for 15 seconds, then we spent two weeks together. Sounds like a love story. It was great. So when I got the chance, you know, somebody’s like, Hey, yeah, like Miska owns a lodge in, you know, in can or whatever. Eric (34m 12s): I started looking into it. I was like, oh, come up. And then, you know, it started small. Like a lot of things do. I came up that first year with a couple guys. They caught fish, loved it, came back again. And it’s just kind of evolved now to like just kind of a beast. Like, I mean, I was up there like 12 days this year. I think I’m coming up two weeks this fall and then two weeks next spring. You know, it’s gonna sound like a paid ad right now, but I got nothing. I got no dog in this fight. Besides that, when you’re talking about steelhead hard to find, easy to catch, right? So all the things that you have control of, the tighter they are, the more enjoyable the the experiences. And so for me being kind of in that, it’s not freezing, although it can be, but that kind of cold atmosphere, dark kind of days. Eric (34m 59s): Everybody at the lodge is like on the same wavelength of like, we’re gonna chase hard, but like, hey, that’s, you know, we didn’t get one today. Or Oh, you fucked up, you trout set. Or you see a fish move through a taillight. Everybody’s like in this really, you know, kind of coming at a winner mindset. The guides have worked there a long time. I mean, fuck Adrian’s part steelhead at this point. And Mikey’s just like a zen master. He’ll just throw it upstream 80 feet and catch a 20 pound. Or like, they’re just, they’re like, they’re fucking Pulse is like the fucking riffle of the tail outs. Like they’re just connected to that. Even somebody at steelhead, as long as I am, when I go out there, I’m looking to be guided. You know, I can’t tell you how many times Adrian’s like Eric back up and I’m in ankle deep water and I’m like, roll my eyes and then a fish goes swims behind me that’s back outta the water. Eric (35m 45s): I’m like, oh, these people know what they’re talking about. So, you know, land of the giants, tail outs, undammed, wild steal it, the food’s off the hook. Everybody that works, there’s great, it’s beautiful. I mean, what’s not to love? And it’s easy, you know, all the guys I take are all, all my crew, you know, starting out, we all just steelhead at 24 7. That’s all I guided for, for like my first eight years. Go to Alaska, come back more steelhead. So yeah, once they kind of went up there and saw what it was about, it’s just kind of been a reoccurring trip every year. And, and now we’ve kind of moved a couple of those weeks into the fall too, which I’m excited to go up and see and yeah, it’s tight. Eric (36m 25s): This’ll be Zach’s first time going up there, so I’m Jack for him. Yeah, 3 (36m 29s): I’ve heard so much about this place. I’m psyched. My neighbor went, caught a great fish and damn man, I’ve just, I’ve heard about the trips I’ve been, I’ve supposed to come up a couple times. Work got in the way. Not anymore. That don’t happen no more. Brian (36m 46s): Nice. Well we’re, we’re stoked to have you. It’s gonna be a good time. Eric, you’ve got a great group of clients. There’s, there’s no doubt about that. We really enjoy having you around. I wanna go back to, you know, this, this idea that people fish for different reasons. And I’ve talked about this numerous times on this show, and I feel that my life’s been enriched through Phish and Zach, I was excited to hear that you’re involved with a foundation that, that uses fishing and time on the water to help people. Let’s, let’s talk about that. 3 (37m 16s): Absolutely. We, I guess first of all, all kind of me getting sober and dealing with a ton of mental health issues. I went to rehab a few years ago in the, I didn’t feel like it needed to go, even though looking back I like definitely did. But basically if you want to take a break and you’re in the rock and roll business, like they, you can’t take a vacation. I just wanted to go fishing for two weeks and everything would’ve been fine. But I couldn’t do that. So I pulled the rehab card and everybody’s like, okay, you gotta go. And when I was there I realized just I, how much I, I had been suffering with just like kind of mental health things and anxiety and depression and how much, you know, one, getting sober, but then healing up in nature, how much that helped me. 3 (38m 4s): And so before I went, I was looking for like a fly fishing retreat. I wanted to find a place where you go fly fishing during the day and then you sit around the campfire at night. There’s a million metaphors about water and fishing and stuff that could be so helpful to somebody going, going through it. You know, there wasn’t one. And while I was in there, I kind of decided that I wanted to make one. So eventually I want to have, want to go to take a trip to a lodge and have different levels anywhere from free to very expensive to just help people that need a break or that need some help. And So we started a group called, called Ripple Effect, and it’s me, David, and his family that, that owns the flash up Northwest Fly Fishing Outfitters and our buddy Miles. 3 (38m 46s): We all kind of started this thing and we just basically got, and we got some, a couple companies to donate some rods. We use the rental waiters from the shop and we just, we buy the gas, we buy, we take the flies, the tippet, the rods, the waiters, everything. We’re like, you don’t need to know anything about fly fishing. You don’t need to have any gear or any money or a boat. If you, once a month, if you show up at the shop, 7:00 AM we’ll fit you up with rental gear, we’ll throw you in the truck, we’ll take you out, float you around, teach you how to fish. And the idea is that after a year of teaching people how to fish, we get more people and they teach those people and so on and so on. 3 (39m 27s): And it’s, it’s fun. It’s just fishing, but it’s, it’s definitely centered around, you know, mental health awareness and, and sobriety. And it’s been, it’s been awesome. And a few people have really taken, taken hardcore. They’ve gone out guiding with a bunch of us. They’ve taken a bunch of classes, bought gear, and then other people just still come and fish and it’s something, something for everybody. Brian (39m 52s): So Eric, you’ve, you’ve quit drinking as well too, eh? Eric (39m 55s): Yeah, which is insane. July will be a year, which is never thought that would happen. It was just bad choices would snowball on top of each other. Whether, whether that was like mental health or just like body health, just like, oh, like this ninth, like Margarita is great and then, you know, I’m gonna, I get home after just eating. I’m like, dude, a large pizza also sounds good and then let me just fucking cross fade this up and roll this joint real quick. And it’s like, my God, it’s like 1:00 AM I’m wrestling with my dogs on a fucking Tuesday. You know, it’s like, this is not sustainable, I don’t think. And so I’d always kind of pepper Zach with a couple questions. ’cause I know at this point he’d been sober almost two years. Eric (40m 37s): Wasn’t preachy about it. I was kind of against, you know, getting sober at most of the people that I knew. It took over their whole personality. They’ve got a, you know, a TikTok fucking channel about, you know, it and what you need to do. And I mean, nothing against those people, like absolutely no shade. But like, I don’t like that. Like I don’t want to talk about it all the time. I don’t want it to be me like this. It’s, I just, it’s just something you do. Like it doesn’t need to be like, now it’s my personality. So I had a chip on my shoulder against it. Plus, like I said at the beginning, I’m pro drugs and alcohol. Like, if you can do ’em, I think they’re worth it there. Like I just lost all my sponsors, but I do, I think there’s a lot of benefits to it. Eric (41m 19s): You just can’t like, be like me where I’m just like, yeah. So all of them like just do all and do the most of them. And they’re like, no, it’s just like moderation. I’m like, I don’t know what that word means, so I’m just gonna bypass that. So yeah, Zach was just, you know, finally, you know, I’d kind of gone back and forth, you know, take a couple days off here and there, hate it, you know, something would always come up somebody’s birthday or I had a stressful day guiding or had a really good day guiding, or I passed a Mexican restaurant on the drive home. That was a really easy one. And I just remember, you know, finally I just asked Zach, like I said, he’s, he’s not pushy about it. I was like, dude, is it that much better? Like, come on man, just be real with me. Whatever. Eric (41m 58s): He’s like, dude, it’s, it’s a lot better. I was like, really? Like, what the fuck do you do? Like, what do you do with all your time? And like, like what do you do when you have a really bad day? Like you, what are you telling me? I have to have feelings and emotions and deal with shit like, that sucks. I don’t wanna do that. Or like, what if I have an awesome day, I just, what? Jump up and down high five myself and then go to bed. What, what do you do? You know? He’s just like, yeah, I don’t know, something mid carp season. Just get in my ass kicked everything was bad, bad weather and just losing my ass financially. And yeah, just a couple bad decisions in a row where I’m like, I’m done with this. Like, I just got mad about it. I’m just like, fuck this. There’s gotta be something different. Eric (42m 39s): Well, I trust my buddy Zach, we’re buddies. He’s doesn’t seem bored or he wants to like drive off a cliff. So let’s see. And it wasn’t really like a, let’s see, I was kind of like, I, I’m, you know, I’m ready because I think that’s what it comes down to. It’s like you, you can’t do it. Like a lot of people say you can’t do it for anybody else, where you just gotta be like, man, I, I just wanna change. And I wasn’t like whiten up on it. Surprised like I thought, oh dude, I’m screwed. Like what? No tequila, what are you insane? No, no bush lattes, bro on the river. Fuck am I gonna do? I’m drinking water without the alcohol in it. And so I was just bored the first day. I mean, get ready to get ready to deep clean your house. Eric (43m 20s): Okay, everybody, your house about to get real, real clean if you’re anything like me. So yeah, clean the whole house, whatever, it’s 10:00 PM It’s like, what do I do now? Thankfully tea, tease your life. So found like that melatonin tea. So I’d make some tea. I was like, I guess people read a book. Boring, wrong dude, crank through some books. Fun fact, me and Reese Witherspoon have the same taste in books. It turns out I just picked random books. No shit. The first three I put picked were all on her book club list. Okay, how embarrassing is that? Talk about a basic bitch. This guy’s a fly fishing guy. Eric (44m 0s): You kidding me? Reese Witherspoon. Reese is cool, man. Just all in all just, you know, all you know, women authors, just true crime shit. I’m just like, I’m eating it up, just drinking my tea just with a fucking nightlight on at 7:00 PM Loving it. Just like, this is great. You know? I couldn’t believe it. And just, you know, one day turned into a week and all of a sudden I’m just get ready for the best movie you’ve ever seen. I mean, I don’t know if this is true for everybody else, but like for three months every dream was top tier, psycho, Odd star, just the sickest shit. Like scary action pack, like long detailed. Eric (44m 41s): Sometimes I couldn’t even go to sleep. I was so excited to just go to bed so I could just, I was like, this is gonna be the best movie ever. That’s every time I thought that this is gonna be the best shit you’ve ever seen. And every time just bangers, banger, banger. Wake up, remember the whole thing? God, that was awesome. Start my day off. Yeah, fucking drinking, electrolytes crushing, you know, so I, I got way into it, you know, whatever you wanna say. Addicted to that. I was like, this is, so I’m into this now like six, eight days in and then just like a lot of things I go, you know, full, you know, a thousand percent. So I’m like, I get really into like eating healthy. I’m like, so no car asada every day. So I started eating healthy and then I start fucking like going to the gym and like tracking calories and fucking doing all this shit for like eight months. Eric (45m 26s): I got way into it. I loved it. And yeah, time takes by and you know, I think it was like seven months in, I, I called Zach, I was like, dude, I was like at the grocery store looking for like this new hot sauce or whatever and I’m just like going up and down the aisles, just like blasting past cases of beer and I realize like didn’t, like not even looking at him anymore. Like it’s just outta sight outta mind. Like it was just a, a weird moment. And again, pro drugs and alcohol people. Okay, I can’t make that clear enough. Okay, don’t come at me with this shit. Okay? I want like fucking roll that joint, have that michelada. I think it’s great. I just will have all of them. 3 (46m 3s): I love it so much. I don’t do it anymore. Yeah, yeah. I Eric (46m 7s): Love them. I love women so much. I stay completely away from ’em. 3 (46m 10s): Yeah. Eric (46m 11s): So, yeah, you know, all I can say what’s worked for me and you know, without being like, you know, blown smoke up people skirts or whatever, like it, it’s been, I mean if you’re looking for a change, it’s been the biggest change in 45 years on this planet. I just feel like, you know, I was saying before we got started, I feel like I don’t even, that’s kind of the scary part. I don’t even know who this Eric is. I’ve never met this Eric, like 12-year-old Eric might recognize him, but 45-year-old Eric doesn’t, I’ve never been like this. I don’t know who that is. It’s fun. Everybody that meets me for the first time is like, again, that Callum Dave now. It was like, you’ve never, no one’s seen this. Eric, even now, very small percentage of people are seeing this Eric, like just deadass hydro, you know, electrolyte drinking gym, going dog walking, book reading. Eric (46m 57s): Eric, like, that guy wasn’t around forever. She’s just like, I’m way into it. I was like, same with me. But like, he’s fucking kind of a basic bitch, 3 (47m 7s): You know? But that’s what’s fun is getting to know yourself again. And actually I think a lot of it sadly is caring about yourself. Maybe like you’re starting, but you’re at least interested and yeah, when I got sober, which is weird, yes. Three years ago today is my, like when I had my last beer with my brother and I didn’t even want it. I was just on my way to rehab and I was like, I was like, I should probably have a beer on the way there. ’cause that’s kind of the, probably the normal thing to do. And, but you make yourself a new hobby and you’re like, what am I actually into? And it’s, it’s kind of fun. It’s kind of fun. Sometimes I don’t like myself and so I’m like, I gotta hang out with this guy all the time. 3 (47m 49s): Sucks. Eric (47m 51s): Yeah. You know, and again, like something that I am just becoming more comfortable with and I don’t know, like, I just think it should be more widely, like talked about or whatever. It’s like, it’s just like, it’s okay to have feelings. Like I’m an anti feeling person, you know, me and my buddies always used to joke like, oh, you remember feelings, right? Like, something good or bad happens. It’s like, it, it’s kind of a lot of, you know, there’s some truth to that when you’re just partying all the time to just like numbed doubt. But like, dude, I had all the feelings the first, like, it took a while, like six months or whatever. I mean just like fucking sad, like sad as fuck. Eric (48m 31s): Not to the point where I was like, oh, I want to go like, have a drink. ’cause I’m sad. I’m just like, I am just fucking, I’d just be sitting in my house like, holy fuck, I am sad as shit right now. And I think it’s just like all the built up shit that’s happened to you your whole life. You’re like, oh, I can’t just fucking piece out real quick and go have like four or five drinks and like, fucking forget about it. Like, oh, I gotta fucking deal with all this bullshit now, 3 (48m 56s): You know, those, you know, those like road trips or when you’re driving to the river for a long stretch, you’re eating fast food, you’re eating jerky, drinking red bulls, and you’re just kind of like throwing stuff in the backseat. Like, I’ll clean it out later. And like, but it keeps piling up and then you’re trying, you’re god, you know what’s up? Like your truck is a piece of shit. And then like, getting sober is like slamming on the brakes and all of those feelings and everything that you’ve just like shoved down your entire life just fly into your lap and you’re like, now I gotta clean the all this up. Like, that’s, that’s kind of what it’s like. It’s a lot. It is. Yeah. And yeah, you gotta figure some stuff out. But yeah, there’s so many times it’s like something, you know, never any massive traumas, just death by a thousand cuts. 3 (49m 41s): But I’m always just like, ha ha, that’s fine. Yeah. And, and, and then, and then, yeah, you, you stop and you’re just like, ah, there’s all this, there’s all this here. I guess I gotta start going through it. And if you make it a game, it can be, it can be kind of fun. But yeah, it’s, it is a lot to deal with for sure. Eric (50m 1s): Yeah. So that was, that was a lot. But yeah, I mean, enjoying it oddly, you know, kind of goes back to like when we were talking about when you first start guiding and everything’s just exceptionally hard, but you look back on it fondly, it’s just like, okay, like we’re dealing with here and again, like if this was me, if a year ago I heard this person that’s talking right now on this podcast, I’d be rolling my eyes so hard just being like, and I get it, people out there in, in the world listening to this podcast a hundred percent right now, you’re just like, this dude is a fucking boner. I get that. Yeah, you’re probably right. Just the way I’m, you can’t make it sound like you’re not like, oh everything’s so great. Eric (50m 43s): I’m fucking killing it man. Being sober is the best shit ever. There’s no way to make you sound. Not like a pompous asshole. I’m not doing a good job at not cussing right now. My Brian, I just realized that I’m doing, you’ve been doing pretty bad. Real bad. Real, real bad. I apologize. There’s gonna be a lot of beeps in here. But again, I’m not trying to sound like I know I’m not better. I’m nothing really. I’m just saying I feel like before felt nothing. Now I do feel things and that’s all I’m trying to say. I’m not trying to say that I’m better than anybody or I can feel and look at me, feel everybody high five me. I’m not. Again, this all comes back to people. Eric (51m 23s): My greatest fear of people thinking that I think I’m something. Okay. I do not. Same 3 (51m 28s): Dude. Yeah. Can’t handle that. Yeah. 4 (51m 34s): Are you an avid angler looking for the perfect fly selection? Or perhaps you’ve just started out fly tying. Smitty’s Fly Box offers a monthly subscription service that delivers a range of flies. Flight time, materials, and fishing accessories. They tailor their selections based on your fishing location, ensuring you get exactly what you need. And Smitty’s isn’t just any fly supplier. 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The largest leopard rainbow I caught and landed was right off the road system. And we’ll be driving up again this year heading up from the lower 48 all the way up to Alaska to hit those streams again. 4 (52m 60s): You’ll experience the breathtaking beauty of Alaska’s wilderness from mountain streams to hidden rivers perfect for anglers of all levels. Fish hound expeditions makes it easy to explore Alaska. Why wait? Your Alaska adventure is just a drive away. Book your spot now before spaces fill up. That’s fish hound exhibitions.com. F-I-S-H-H-O-U-N-D expeditions.com. Brian (53m 28s): Well your podcast, is this the type of banter we can look forward to? Yep. Eric (53m 32s): Yeah, pretty much. I mean that’s kind of what like, you know, we talked about just like authenticity, you know, like there’s gonna be people that want to tune into it. I want it to be a little bit more regular in the world of like just, you know, kind of the backstory on guiding. I think that’s, it’s gonna be a good balance of Zach ’cause he’s just getting into it after his first years would be, you know, whatever year for me. But that that ebb and flow of of things that you do when you start out, things you’ve been doing for a long time and kind of trial and tribulations of just like kind of that guide life, you know, without that, again, that’s a term I hate but like, and one of my buddies, I think it’s either Nick or somebody that had a hashtag on Instagram for a wild IED life. Eric (54m 14s): Just UIDE always takes me, laughs so hard. I don’t know why shout out to those guys thrillers. But yeah, yeah, just like kind of peeling back a layer and you know, just showing like a different avenue so to speak. Not just like, hey it’s, you know, trout season, we’re out there throwing these bugs, we’re out. There’s people that do a really good job at that on their podcast and have really detailed information and do really good reports and have really good interviews. I mean, you look like people like, you know, like yourself or, or the Wetly podcast or or April really good guests, really good intel backstories on that. We’re not trying to do that. I’m not gonna beat the next April or Brian or Day Stewart. Eric (54m 58s): I’m gonna hop in episode one and have more intel and talks than 700. No, but all we can do is be like, hey, we got two kind of ex dirt bags turned clean, dirt bags, whatever. And kind of the shit that we’re going through with like a little bit of a fishing report in there. That’s kind of the jam can, I promise there’s not gonna be any rants. I still go hot. I’m trying to work on it. I said this the other day, I said it today on the drive home. I was talking to Kolby about it. Who? You or no on the boat. I’m like man, like today’s just gonna be a good day if I just like have a good day. Like if I don’t blow up at something, like it’s so ridiculous. Eric (55m 40s): Like we say it all the time, dude, it’s a Thursday, I’m on a river, we haven’t seen anybody. We’re catching bass. I get to throw these giant streamers, it’s sunny. We have all these boats, we work outside. Yet I’m still so upset about something. You know how stupid of a person you have to be to be that upset. Like, oh no, oh poor me, I got a flat skiff. Three rafts of drift boat, two dogs that really like me and I’m a river catching bass on giant swinging d fucking day sucks. That person sucks. And you know what the worst part of it, that’s me. I live with that person I that I’m talking about myself. So I was like, yeah, just let’s have a good day. Eric (56m 22s): And then immediately the next cast, I’m not even gonna get starred on cl of craft and they’re meat locks. That fucking line grabber line wrapped around it flies, falls short, doesn’t go in the bucket. I’m just like, God. And then I was like, you know what? Fucking chill vibes, dude. I’m so chill right now. Brian (56m 38s): Eric, are you, are you one of those guides who gets mad at their clients when they blow a cast? Eric (56m 43s): I mean it depends. If I do, we’re buddies. Okay. Like if I give you shit, we’re buddies. If I’ve only taken you a couple times or there’s guys like, I have to put like the, the, the white gloves on some older gentleman. There’s a guy that I take fishing quite frequently, does not cuss. Very mellow grandpa. That’s different. Eric, that’s, oh shoot. Good job so and so. Hey, no problem. We’ll, we’ll I’ll get closer. Yeah, I, it does look like we’re 10 feet off the bank, but I can get closer man. That’s fine. These fish don’t care lies. Oh you know what? I break lies like that all the time. I, I got a bunch of ’em. That one only took me 90 minutes. Eric (57m 23s): That was a short time. Lemme just get that for you. Like yeah I can, I can church it up. But like if you make a bad cast and you know, a classic saint is nice caster. That means I like you because I make bad cast all the time, right? I made a bunch of ’em today. Not as many as kolby chop, but I made a few. But if I’m giving you shit, I’m not really mad inside. It’s just me being like, it’s almost like reflective, like I’m almost saying it to myself ’cause I’ve been there a million times. Like just like I, I was telling that to Kolby today, like I threw it in the tree and I’m like dude, how am I even upset with any client I’ve ever taken? I do this professionally for a living. I was in a sims catalog bro. Okay. Eric (58m 3s): And I’m throwing it in trees. Like who this guy sucks this, who is this? This guy. He’s not in AD anymore. He is not ad material. The giant tree that was 12 feet off the river, you know they’re in the water Eric, right? And you decide to bomb it 12 feet in the air. ’cause you thought what? That was a good idea. And then like what, next week I’m gonna like roll my eyes at somebody that fishes 10 days a year. And they like, they get it three feet off the bank instead of a foot. Like again, that’s why I started to get all hot and I was like, I found that if I bring humor into it, instead of like trying to be an adult and being like, let’s just calm down, let’s count to five or like, let’s think of all the positive stuff that shit don’t work with me. Eric (58m 44s): So now when I get hot and I start to blow up, I just make fun of myself. I’m like, I’m fucking chill. I’m a cool guy man. It’s just chill vibes here. I’m cool as a cucumber. Look at this, look at this. Is this guy upset? And by the time I get done making fun of myself, I actually feel better. So pro tip out there to anybody that’s dumb like me, try that. Don’t try to actively be like, okay, I’m just gonna chill. I gotta just calm down. That does not work with me. I have to berate myself and being like, Hey clown, look how stupid you are. You know why that cast didn’t go out? I don’t know, maybe ’cause you decided to wear fricking flip flops and those things. Grab the line 24 7. Why don’t you just go and kick those shoes off, dude, remember you’re in a dry boat, you don’t need shoes. Eric (59m 27s): This type of stuff. This is, this is what I talk to myself about all day. So chill. Just chill vibes over here. Okay guys. Super chill. 3 (59m 34s): I love fishing with Eric and I’ve always said that I enjoy losing a steelhead when I’m around Eric. Just as much as I like catching a steelhead around Eric, it’s like, it’s equally entertaining. He’s so funny. And I like that kind of stuff. And obviously like we hit it off pretty quick. He taught me how to spa as I didn’t know I would lose. I was just band guy and I like, I was walking down a river, I saw some dude with this huge rod and I was like, excuse me sir, what is that? And I was like, ah, it’s a spay rod. And I kind of looked at it for a minute and then I, I watched him for a second, looked up some YouTubes and I came in the shop and I was like, Hey spay casting, what is it? 3 (1h 0m 19s): How do I learn to do it? And Eric was working that day. He is like, well get a trip with me, I’ll show you how. And I don’t think he got, well maybe we started like talking like that and like a lot of self-deprecation and stuff like that. And like we figured each other out pretty quick. And that we are those kind of guys. And I just found it hilarious and I love things like that because it’s funny, it’s entertaining. It’s, it’s weird with fishing man, you can’t take yourself too seriously. Even though it’s what we all, like, we eat, we dream, we breathe fishing, but it’s just fishing man. And you can’t, they can’t forget that. And so you gotta have fun with it. 3 (1h 0m 59s): You can take it as seriously as you want it, but just remember to also not take yourself too seriously ’cause that sucks. Gotta laugh about it. Brian (1h 1m 9s): Yeah. And there’s, you know, there’s always the luck factor, which is really the sweet zone. So Eric, I want to go back to the brands that you fish. And you know, recently we, we put out a, a little video that got a fair amount of views. It was a, a little hatch, a little hatch collaboration there that you did. And you know, I think this particular year of, of you being up at the lodge this spring, I could kind of summarize it to someone as, you know, what’s Eric’s hosted trip about? Well it’s, it’s about you come up here and you watch Eric catch fish. ’cause it seemed that it, it seemed that that what you were doing this year is, you know, you kind of go out and get one at will and your clients, the, the people that you brought up to the lodge, I I think they really enjoyed watching you be successful. Brian (1h 1m 59s): And that, that hatch video to me just kind of summarized the, the whole spring of, of how that whole thing went down. Can you tell me, were you fishing with greater confidence this year or, or were you feeling the luck? Eric (1h 2m 10s): Yeah and you know, it’s interesting. He had steelhead fished a lot and that’s not like a, a flex or anything, it’s just, I was obsessed with it. So even before I was guiding, I was still fishing like five days a week and it’s gone down since then. But like I’ve just spent a lot of time on the water and you know, I think that’s the hardest part about Steelheading is that like, at least I guess I can only speak in my experience, but I think this is true, it takes so many fish of catching them in the same speed, in depth. Like every single steel that I’ve ever caught has been in the same speed of water. Like even if it’s in a tail out that tail out’s flat. It’s not steep. Eric (1h 2m 51s): You know, maybe there’s a random fish that you’ll catch in a riffle that’s got some downgrade into it. But just that tension of the fly and the speed that it’s coming through when I feel that, like I, you just, you’re like if there’s a fish there, he is going to eat it. And I think that just comes with a lot of days. It’s like, like I always like to say, there’s either no fish there, you’re not gonna catch him. There’s a fish there and it’s inactive name. The reason why it got caught, you know that morning it traveled far, it’s outta breath, whatever, you know, it doesn’t like blue, it wants red, whatever. It just, it’s not gonna your fly. It may eat the fly 30 minutes later for a guy that comes through it may eat the fly the guy directly behind you but it’s not gonna eat your fly. Eric (1h 3m 34s): So whatever. And then you got a fish that like it’s gonna eat your fly no matter what. So when I come to the Chena, for me it’s like I know those fish are coming right outta the ocean. So they haven’t seen anything, not one fly and the most aggressive they can be because they’re coming right outta the ocean. They’re all tuned up. They wanna spa like they wanna spawn, they’re, they’re agro fish. So it’s something I was kind of telling the guys that came up with me this trip and it was way more like I was really like hey this is gonna help you. The last couple of years I kind of mentioned and stuff, the things I believe is that people fish their fly too fast and they move their feet too slow. Eric (1h 4m 17s): So every single person I fish behind that 12 days or whatever, I was up within 10 casts. I was in their underpants and you could have put me a hundred yards above them. They will not move. They move like this two to three step thing that everybody talks about. We need to put that in length. I don’t care how many steps, seven feet, you know, five to seven feet is how much I’m moving in between casts even in the dead of winter because I’m convinced that steelhead is gonna move three to five feet to get your fly maybe more. I don’t believe you need to hit ’em on the head. I think they are chasing that fly down, whether the water’s 32 or 45, they’re just the right fish. Eric (1h 5m 4s): And so there was plenty of times when somebody would start like, you know, every time I’m like, hey, put ’em in the juice, put me in whatever other water. So a lot of time that’s, you know that last say 120 feet of a tail out right? Or so wherever they started me, if I’m like, Hey is there any good water from above me down? They’d be like, yeah, you can go all the way up there if you want. And I would go up, you know, 80 yards and come down just not ’cause I thought I was gonna catch a fish but just so I wasn’t fishing like my fly, hitting the back of these guys’ legs, right? A couple times I caught fish behind them, whatever it was probably ’cause I was waiting super deep casting super far, not waiting super deep depth just put being able to wade out in faster water that was like, you know, hip deep in casting. Eric (1h 5m 56s): But to answer your question, like when I got out there, if, if I actually got, if there was like two pieces of tail or piece below it, I mean I’m just plowing through and I don’t feel like I missed any fish. But like I think the more water you can cover, you’re gonna catch those fish and like, I don’t know, just coming up there every year, I think the fishing’s excellent. So I, in an odd way I expect to catch a fish every run we step into, like every time they put me in water I’m like, I’m gonna get one. Not like in a fun way. Like oh yeah, I should probably get one. I’m just like a hundred percent I’m catching one right now. And then when I don’t, I’m surprised but not like disappointed if that makes sense, right? I’m just like, oh huh. I guess there one with, you know, wasn’t one there but like if there is, I’m catching it like I’m catching that fish. Eric (1h 6m 40s): And I think having that confidence in going through something, I talked to deck about this, something like happens and I’m not like a superstitious witchy religious person or anything like that. But the guys that are like kind of agro and like I haven’t got a fish in two days. Like what am I doing wrong? Do I need this fly? Do I need this tip? I never see those guys catch fish. Like they don’t get ’em for whatever reason I, and I don’t know they need to do a study or some shit ’cause they’ve never got ’em, they won’t ever get ’em and they’ll continue to not get them. Then somebody the same day in the same stretch gets three and they’re just like, oh yeah, it was a beautiful day. Like I never changed my fly. Eric (1h 7m 20s): I got three. So I think to answer your question, when I come up there, I expect to catch fish. There’s absolute, I fished the same fly for two weeks this year. I never changed the year before when I was up for two weeks I had a different fly, completely different color, never changed it for two weeks. Cut the shit outta fish. So I truly believe they don’t care. And I know everybody says that, but you can say, oh fly doesn’t matter, fly color doesn’t matter. I hear guide say, I hear other guy fishermen say it, but do you believe that? ’cause if you change your fly, I don’t think you believe that. You know, why do we have all these flies in our box? Because people are like, oh well watercolor, they see it, they see pretty much every color as long as it’s not blown out. Eric (1h 8m 2s): So why, why aren’t, why are you changing your fly? You know, when I guide winter steelhead out here, the only time I ever change a fly is when people go, I don’t know. You think we should change the fly? A hundred percent. That’s the right answer. I’m glad you said something. I was thinking the same thing. Get that shit outta there. Pull out the box. What looks good to you? I don’t know. What do you think? I don’t know. They all work looks good. They’re like that one I’m like, that’s the one I was gonna choose. Not true, but they like it. But in my head when they’re like, should we change the fly in my head I go and nothing against ’em. I go, listen, dumb dumb for I thought changing the fly would help. Don’t you think I would do it? But I can’t say that. I just go, yeah, you’re right. Thanks for that insight. I’m so glad we’re in the boat together. Cheers buddy. Let’s tie that fly on. But it doesn’t now I I fish the same. Eric (1h 8m 43s): Yeah, 3 (1h 8m 43s): It’s called the blue door. Eric (1h 8m 45s): Yeah, I fish the same fly one fly every time I go. Steelhead fishy. The only time I change is if they eat it and they don’t turn on it and then barely sometimes I’m like, I guess I’ll go back at that fish. But not all the time. Brian (1h 9m 0s): You brought up a couple things that, that we’ve talked about in, on various episodes, but I I think they’re worth touching on again. So the first one is, is this idea of that familiar tension and you know, why do you have the confidence? It’s because you’ve caught fish When your fly feels like this before in water that feels like this. So you know that if there’s a fish there and it’s in the right mood, it’s gonna grab your fly. And the second thing equally important that, that you bring up and man this this is actually come up a lot, is that that idea of can the fish sense negative energy on the line? Why is it that the I need a fish guy never gets him And it it has to, you know, you wanna rationalize it. Brian (1h 9m 40s): It probably comes down to the fact that they’re not fishing the fly with the right amount of tension because they are the tension. And you know, the last point, and this is a little bit of a subtlety for for guides is, you know, what is the role of a guide? Well the guide shirt, it’s, it’s a bit of a coach. You’re supposed to get the person in that mental state where they can be open to catching a fish because they have that confidence. And if that means changing a fly, if that means changing a spot, whatever it is, you know, that’s your job. And a good guide knows when to change that fly, when to change that spot and when to leave their person alone and just let them fish. ’cause they’re, you know, their rhythm’s good. Brian (1h 10m 20s): They’re, they’re fishing confidence. They’re fishing the fly. Well, Zach gotta ask you, you know, as, as a fairly new fishing guide, what is one thing that, that you’ve figured out lately that has really changed your, your guiding game? 3 (1h 10m 37s): Relax more and don’t try to be on all the time and it’s, it’s that it’s more, it’s more guiding people spiritually and getting them in the right head space. Yeah, there’s a couple things with casting and stuff and especially I take out a lot of new people, I do have to do things specific, but it’s also just, Hey man, don’t rush, don’t freak out. You’re fishing. And I think just like playing music, just anything, just like vibes are king. Vibes will, like, they’re the only thing that you can kind of control. The only thing you can control in this life. I mean especially when you’re fishing, the only thing you can control is your attitude. 3 (1h 11m 16s): That’s it. No weather, no fish, no nothing. I mean you got like technique and stuff like that, but even that depends on a lot of like outside influences. There’s just so many variables. The only thing you can really control is your attitude. So make it good and read people and exactly like that. I’ve learned a lot of things from listening to podcasts like this, from hanging out with guides like Eric that have been doing this for so long and know those things is you gotta treat each person different and you don’t just like, yeah, I’m trying to get a program and stuff like that, but my program is people and I gotta figure out what this person wants. If they’re a get ’em guy, if they’re a oh let’s float the canyons, what a lovely day this is and just be that and but also have, you know, a little bit of yourself. 3 (1h 12m 6s): But I’ve gotten, I’ve gotten so much good advice from all these, from a bunch of my friends and Eric being the, the elder of the group is, it is just, it’s really cool. Like, like he said, all of the brothers and sisters at Northwest Fly Fishing Outfitters we’re all super supportive. I get ask so many questions and I’m not scared to, I recognize that I don’t know a lot of things. It’s one thing to go and find fish for yourself, it’s completely different to put other people on ’em and to fish through people. Brian (1h 12m 37s): That’s a great way to put it. Yeah. And you know, let’s face it, guiding saw it for everyone. There’s a lot of guides who do it for a short period of time. They’re not that great at it. You know, as soon as, as soon as fishing gets tough, they get bad, like really ineffective and, and a great guide can take slow fishing and turn it around and and have it work in their favor. And that’s when you can really shine. You know, that’s when you can prove people’s casts set them up for success for the future. Eric, who’s helped you in your guide career? I mean you’ve been guiding a long time, but can you think of some people that I’ll use the term mentor? Eric (1h 13m 12s): I mean I think I was telling you earlier I could do like a, an Oscar speech on the amount of people that helped me just, you know, I was gonna say a shortlist, but you know, people that come straight to mine, you know, first would be, you know, Jack Hagan, the previous owner of the Fly Shop, he took a chance on me. He used to think I was on cocaine when I used to come in the shop ’cause I was so jacked up on Steelhead. He would actually hide upstairs ’cause he was like, dude, you’re too much, you’re fucking bouncing off the walls. I was like, this tracks. But yeah, I wasn’t on cocaine, that was just me. He’s like, that’s unfortunate. I was like, thanks. But he, yeah, after I got it up in Alaska, he just, he got, you know, he let me start working there and a hundred percent of my clients when I first started out came from working at the Fly Shop. Eric (1h 13m 57s): So huge, huge help in just like business sense. And then obviously like, like one of my best friends, Jeff Arnold, he was the head guide at Good News River Lodge for years. He was there many years before I started, but that’s, I could tell do a whole podcast just on Jeff. But he did not talk to me in my first couple years in Alaska. He’s very, plays his cards close to his vest. Very smart human being, very analytical, technical, but just doesn’t have time for bullshit. So people call him, you know, kind of grumpy asshole or whatever, but he is not, he is really a kind human being. But he, he showed me a lot of different stuff about, I had to think about fishing so to speak, and kind of helped me with the, with the sight fishing stuff when I first kind of got into Carpe Guides Red Fish in Louisiana now and then like, I mean so many like Tom LaMer, fuck dude, I just talked to him the other day. Eric (1h 14m 47s): Like business sense always like, you know, calling me like figuring out like, hey, like what’s your five-year plan with this? What are you gonna do with this boat? Like how are you gonna make income when it gets slow? What do you do in the wintertime if they close fisheries? Like he’s always very business oriented and like has me thinking a lot in those aspects. One of my good clients, Ben Glick, he went in on the boat with us, couldn’t have done stuff without him. He’s been a really good resource to bounce business ideas off. He’s super smart as well. Love fishing him too. Just a good dude in the boat. And people like Eric Neufeld, I mean he’s the one that basically, you know, helped me get on with Sims years ago. Eric (1h 15m 28s): And just another really good resource for the industry to be able to talk things through. A lot of the stuff that happens isn’t like, hey, where are you finding fish and what fly works? It’s a lot of the ins and outs and like trying to be a smart businessman in the sense of taking care of your clients and having a plan for the future rather than just like winging it, which is my specialty. So it’s nice to have those people to be like, Hey, have you thought about tomorrow? And I’m like, no. And they’re like, you should probably. And I’m like, cool. Like what? And they’re like, I don’t know all this stuff. So it’s just been like a huge help. You know, there’s a million other people too, but, and then of course, you know with like space cast and stuff working with Deck in the fall and Troy up there seeing that program and, and I mean I’ve probably seen Deck’s Clinic, I don’t even know five falls, like 40 times of an hour each on those 40, you know, 40 days or 50 days. Eric (1h 16m 20s): So like, I don’t know, I’ve seen a hundred plus hours of a deck, Hogan Bay Clinic and I have a chair right in front every time. Like even the last year I guided with him, I’ve been doing it five falls with those guys to the last day of his last clinic. I got a chair right in line. I’ve heard it all before, but I don’t pick up every little piece. It doesn’t soak in. That’s why again, you know, in reflection it’s like I know when I tell my clients one thing and I’m like, God, do they, can they not fucking remember one thing I tell ’em, it’s like, well pump the brakes. Eric, how many clinics do you watch at Dex after guiding for 12 years and then the last day on your fifth season, you’re like, oh wait a, is he saying pull down with the bottom hand? Eric (1h 17m 4s): That’s interesting. Should I try that? Should I, should I stop my rod high? Wait, am I supposed to, to face my target good athletics? ’cause I always thought I could turn my bo like stuff that I had to hear 200 times as a professional for me to be like, Hey man, if you throw this fly quarter down more with a dry line, it starts fishing earlier. It’s like, yeah, I read about that on the internet like in 2008 and just started doing it in like 2018. So all those guys have just helped me in hoards and just being able to bounce ideas off of ’em. And then there’s just nameless other people like Rex and Patterson that used to work for Sims. Eric (1h 17m 44s): Well Rex still does. And like, you know, you mentioned Hatch like Adam and Christina and all the people down there, like they’ve been so helpful. Oh, one last one I killed myself. Jeremiah, who that dude is, he will be the best rep in the United States. Mark my words. That dude is so business oriented, so goddamn good with people. It blows my mind. We are in the bass and fly tournament, like, I’m sweating. Okay. It’s a fly only tournament on the Delta in California. We’re like in fifth place. Okay, we, we got a chance, we’re going down there to be John Sherman. Love you Sherman, but we’re coming for you. Right? Second day, like we got a chance, like it’s going down, his phone rings, it’s like two hours left. Eric (1h 18m 25s): He just picks it up. I’m like, what are you doing? He’s like, just a second. He is like, oh yeah, yeah, well if you just drop ship that. Yeah. See the numbers on the top, right? That little, yep. That little dropdown menu. Yep. And we’ll just get that out probably later tonight. I’ll shoot it once we get off the water hangs up and then just immediately full tilt, a hundred percent casting like back in it. And I had to ask him later on in the hotel, I was like, was that a work call that you took in the bottom of the ninth during the tournament? He’s like, yeah. I’m like, why? He is like, took two seconds. So I mean, he’s helped me with a bunch of stuff, but just knowing that, like, that’s one of my pet peeves with the fishing industry. No one will answer their goddamn phone or text you back. Eric (1h 19m 5s): Like, I’m like, you get my message. They’re like, yeah. I was like, and they’re like, oh yeah, I I’m gonna get back to you. I’m like, it’s been 10 days, like, answer me now. Maybe I’m too demanding. But I’m like, you have your phone, you saw it. Answer me immediately please, so I can figure out what we need to do. ’cause I can’t solve this problem if I don’t know what’s going on. So he’s like, every time call him, text him, answers, answers, answers, answers. I love that. Like, you wanna be in the friend circle of Eric instantly when I text you about a problem and you get back to me that same day immediately you have my attention. I’m like, oh my God, what, what’s happening here? I need to hang out with this person all the time because they’re on their shit. So shout out Jeremiah for being the most organized. 3 (1h 19m 48s): That’s amazing. Oh man. One other thing that I love that I’ve learned is how teaching people makes you better. Because I, I had a lot of, obviously a lot of imposter syndrome going into this. I’m like, I know I’m, I’m an okay, I’m an okay angler, but I’m like, do I know it well enough to teach people? And so I kind of just jumped in and tried it and I had no idea what I was doing and stuff, but I would just see things ’cause I can’t watch myself. And I would see things and instantly I’m just like, oh, well I think you’re doing this. And the whole time I’m thinking in my head, even though I’m teaching this person, I’m like, shit, I I do that too. And, and then that makes you better. And then you get to work on those things yourself and helping other people and then describing it. 3 (1h 20m 32s): Like, I didn’t know how to describe a spa cast until I was like, all right, let’s just do it and I’m gonna tell you every, I’m gonna rant like Eric. And I’m like, I’m gonna tell you everything that’s going through my mind as I’m doing these cast. And, and then you figure out how to explain things and then you just understand it more. Sometimes things, I don’t understand them when they’re in my head, but then once they reach oxygen, if I write them down or speak them, then I like actually get a, get a grasp on what I’m doing here. And it makes you a much better caster, much better angler. That’s been really cool to see. I was not expecting that one. Brian (1h 21m 7s): Zach, gimme a, gimme one of your best spa casting tips. 3 (1h 21m 10s): Oh, ID oh god, that’s hard. It’s like with casting, I’m an okay caster. Just lineup do, do one thing that Eric taught me that I’d be deck deck told him, keep your shit over your shit. Keep everything kind of in a straight line. Go. I’ve been, I was side arming things all the time and just keeping straight, really trying to get 180 degrees work on timing. And really honestly just like vibes, when I think of things too much, when I work on something, I’ll drill it really hard and then every time I try a cast where I just let my body do it, I gotta stop, use my mind. I’m just like, let my body do it. 3 (1h 21m 50s): I know what a loaded rod feels like. Do not think about timing, do not think about anything. Just look at where you want your fly to go. Keep an eye on your loop or your tip and just do it and not even do less. And it works every time. It’s just do less. I know they say slow down, I’m, I’m a little, which is true, but it’s like I’m a kind of do less guy. But I teach a lot of brand new people too. Brian (1h 22m 15s): No, which, which is great. And I mean every instructor’s got, you know, some tips that were good for them. And a lot of times these get passed from instructor to instructor. In previous shows I’ve referenced some of the stuff that Tim Arsenal has, has passed on to me that I use. And you know, listening to you make that description there. I think back to a favorite of mine is, you know, just how people hold the rod. And a lot of times if you’re telling someone to slow down, the reason that they’re adding speed is because they feel a lost of tension and they feel that lost a tension because typically they’re adding speed at the wrong part of the cast. So if you get someone to hold the rod looser, you know, it’s sometimes that can just get, you know, get them feeling what’s going on better and just, it just sets them up for success. Brian (1h 22m 58s): The way you talk about lining up, facing the target, you know, setting yourself up with your, if you’re a right-handed caster, putting your right foot forward, pointing at the target. So it’s, it’s little things like this that, you know, you figure out, like you say, explaining to people that’s the best way to learn something. It really is. 3 (1h 23m 14s): I totally agree. Brian (1h 23m 15s): So I always ask this question, but I gotta ask, I’ve asked Eric before, but I’m gonna ask you, what are you using for a real, are you a click and pull guy or are you a just drag guy? 3 (1h 23m 25s): Not yet. I don’t think I’ve caught enough steelhead to like be okay with losing some on some hot fish. And yeah, right now, right now I’m doing, doing galvins and hatches are, are kind of my, are kind of my two that I bounce back and forth. But I do, I am obviously like kind of fascinated with the click and I’m gonna, I’m gonna be getting into that. I love old school things and I’m gonna do that, but I’m, I’m to the point where I’m like, eh, maybe get a few more under my belt before I am just okay with losing some more. Even though every time I lose a steelhead, I’m totally cool with it. I’m like, that was awesome and I almost like it better. 3 (1h 24m 8s): I’m like, I couldn’t handle that fish. It’s not for me, it’s not my time. And unless I clearly mess it up, then whole different story then. Yeah, I hate myself and it haunts me. But a lot of times if it’s just hot fish, I couldn’t handle it. It was just like too big not the right time and it just goes and it’s just a thing. So maybe I will get into that. How about you? Brian (1h 24m 30s): You know what, great question. I currently, I primarily fish a real from a Canadian company called Islander. It’s a, a reel that’s actually designed for conventional tackle fishing, but they make a few small adjustments. So it works good for spa casting, it’s got a full frame, which is good. So the running line doesn’t slip out sealed drag. My philosophy with tackle right now, and it’s been this way for a little bit, is I want to be set up So that when I hook a really exceptional fish, I’ve got as much going in in my favor as possible. So as such, you know, I I want a large reel, I like a heavy reel. I like the way it tips the rod up in the swing, you know, click and Paul reels are really cool. Brian (1h 25m 10s): And I think back Zach to one of the first shows I did, it was with a couple of good buddies of mine, Scott Baker Magar and Dax Mess It. And in that show, Scott makes a pretty good argument for why we should all be buying these really old hardy reels that go up in value. You know, this is a, this is an investment. This isn’t just a, a tackle purchase on a whim. It’s, it’s an investment in your future to, to spend all this money on, on fancy a hundred year old reels. So, but yeah, on, on the short term, I’m, I’m really digging those islanders, but I’ve got a prototype reel coming hopefully in the next couple weeks from Vlad at VR Designs. Brian (1h 25m 53s): It’s, it’s gonna look like a clicker, but it’s got a, a badass disc drag inside and it’s a little larger than the reels they currently make. And yeah, I’m excited to hopefully use it over on the kid mat. That sounds cool. 3 (1h 26m 8s): Rad. That sounds really cool. Brian (1h 26m 10s): I’ll send you a picture when I get it, but yeah, absolutely. I like the idea of, I like the idea of increased capacity, so, sure. Eric, same question for you. I know you’re a, you’re a hatch guy, you’re kind of, you know, every, everything that every, every time I see you, you got a new one. Are you liking the disc drags or are you back on the clickers? Eric (1h 26m 28s): Yeah, I mean, I kind of joke around when I fish a hatch, it’s, it’s unfair. I fish cl and ps for so long that like, you know, when I, when I’m guiding, I have all my clients fish hatch ’cause you know, I want them to land fish. So like, I had a guy Kendrick recently, I dial the, the dragon just perfect the way I like it. Line’s gonna come off. But when the fish eats it, there’s a little bit of, there’s more 10 way more tension than a click and pause. So when it turns that hook seats a little bit, you know, and he has a fish blow up like a early summer run, just rip and come off. I’m like, okay, sucks, but nice. Eric (1h 27m 8s): Later in the day again, just gets eaten. And after that first fish I went to Hammond’s Raw at the second run and I like pull line off, I always do. And like look at the fly and like it came off pretty easy. I’m like in transition rowing did this loose, like there’s something going on with the reel. So I tightened it back up. The way I do hooks, another fish comes off, it’s like, what the heck? Get to another spot, pull the boat off, pull the drag. And I’m like, dude, are you loosening this drag when I hand you the rod? He is like, yeah. I’m like, why? He’s like, well I, I want the line to come off. And I’m like, you don’t think I’m doing this for you? Like, dude, this thing’s so loose, it’s less that drag than a click. And Paul, you’ve got a $900 reel and no drag. He’s like, oh, do you think that’s why I lost those fish? Eric (1h 27m 49s): I was like, it didn’t help. Like, are you kidding me? Like slack everywhere. So I, I just like the sound of click and pause. I send Adam one of the owners a hatch, a DM once a year. Like, hey man, ever think about making a click and Paul Hatch like, make it look like a hatch, but like the full, you know, closed back like some of their, you know, customs have but make it loud like a girlfriend, just leave me on red. No response. So I’m like, he hates this message. He hates it. It’s almost become a joke now. Like every year I’m like, Hey buddy, what do you think of this idea? Like no one’s ever said it to him before. He is like, Hey, how about shut up? ’cause we sell like two spay reels, you know, a year there’s saltwater, you know, saltwater reel raise basically. But you know, not this spring, but last spring, like I told you that story, you know, we’re up there shooting the sims thing and I got a shamburg. Eric (1h 28m 36s): I love that reel and I just get smoked by like five, six fish within like two or three days. Like it was good. And they’re just cartwheeling ripping line wade in the backing, obviously shake the hook. I’m like, whatever, this is cool. And Rex goes, you know, Hey, I thought you were a hatch guy. I am. Did you bring one? I did. Well can you fish one? It’s like, why? It’s like, well we’re trying to make a movie and you’ve just like lost four or five fish. I was like, oh yeah. And then I fished a hatch the next day and then landed my personal best steal it ever. Which somehow Esteban and I have really good luck ’cause you know how hard it is to get any fish on film and anytime that guy grabs a camera, I’m like, oh, we’re gonna get one now. Eric (1h 29m 20s): Like when we went out that last day, that last video that he met, you know, like Mikey’s like, oh, camera’s coming out, he ain’t catch anything. And I was like, I don’t, I don’t feel that way. I feel like when he gets in the boat, like we’re a hundred percent gonna get one first run, first spot we stopped at and I’m like, oh, I got the hatch. Like definitely gonna land it once I hook it. No big deal. Made like four casts made another one. I was like, oh, it’s swinging pretty good. And I didn’t even get right there out. It just went and just, he’s filming and just cartwheel, cartwheel, cartwheel landed the fish high fived. It was like nine 15 in the morning. He’s like, well that okay, well we did it. I was like, yeah, that was awesome. And then turns out there’s a guy across the bar from us. He had just fished that we found out later. Eric (1h 30m 1s): He had just fished that run at like eight that morning, crossed the river. We came up river caught that fish. So go figure, they move around a lot, right? I’m not saying that fish was there. I’m just saying, Hey, you fish with the ski of people are like, oh, it’s getting busy. I get it. I, I caught some heat this spring. Apologies Canadians, I wasn’t trying to ruin your life. I was just excited that people caught fish and I liked the way they look and I put photos up and you’re right, I could have waited till the end of the season. I’m not perfect. I’m not gonna tell you like kick rocks. I can do whatever I want. I’m Eric, er. You’re right, I’m wrong. You’re handsome. I’m ugly, you’re smart, I’m stupid. Whatever you wanna hear. You’re right. Eric (1h 30m 41s): Yeah. I should have done a better job. I’m sorry. That being said, the fish move around so much. I’ll go in behind 17 people through a run. You know, the 17th person goes through a run. I’ll have a smoke, some type of cookie assortment I’m guessing, and or candy bar. Give it 10 minutes go through and I feel like I’m gonna catch a fish. Yeah, those reels are just, they just, it’s unfair. The drag’s so smooth. I mean that fish on camera, it jumped four or five times. I just sat there and like every time it jumped it was just like smooth. Like, oh, I go out now I have tension. Oh, I go out now I have tension. Wow. It’s like I’m gonna land this fish. Like come on in. Yeah, I love ’em. Great reels, big fan. Brian (1h 31m 22s): You know, like you say, you know, was the fish not there or was it just not in the mood? And I think a lot of times we picture these fish just like lining up every fly they see. But I think the reality of the situation is, you know that there’s certain times during the day where they’re into it. And if your fly’s out there with the right amount of tension doing what it’s supposed to, good things happen that I guess that’s maybe the luck thing. And you can, you can bolster that by, by fishing the right water at the right speed. Eric (1h 31m 48s): Yeah. If you’ve ever looked down and seen steelhead in a run from a high cliff, there’s sticks and all sorts of shit floating down, right? You’ve seen them holding, they peel to the right like six inches, right? And then back to the middle, like active fish are kind of a little bit to the right. Maybe they go to the left, like they’re kind of not just in a position, they’ll hold there, but they’ll, they’ll go left to right. I think their eyes track stuff a lot. So who’s to say that your fly’s coming across and some shiny rock kicks up to the side, they look to the right, your fly swings past them. They’re like, oh, I, I thought I saw something. You take four or five steps, the flies behind them. But there’s too much unknown when steel hitting. Like that’s what I’m saying, like just plow through the water and find a fish. Eric (1h 32m 31s): Like don’t baby step it don’t change your flies. Like it didn’t see it, it saw something shiny to the right. Who knows. But like Brian (1h 32m 38s): You sound like Mikey, Eric (1h 32m 39s): You’re never gonna know. Make a good cast, fish it slow, move through the run. Brian (1h 32m 45s): You sound like you’ve been listening to Mikey. Eric (1h 32m 47s): Oh, I didn’t even, is that a, is that a Mikey thing? Oh Brian (1h 32m 50s): Yeah, he’s just, just, just throw it out there. Eric (1h 32m 52s): He doesn’t men, which is insane. I mean that’s the only thing that we really differ on. The guides up there and me. They’re like, you Oregon boys in your menu. And I’m like, well I don’t want it going down river Adrian. I just cast it 90 degrees across. She’s like, yeah, it’ll come sideways. I was like, no it won’t. It’s gonna go down river for about half the swing, then it’s gonna accelerate and then it’s gonna come across. And I’m not, I don’t have x-ray vision. I’ve just seen drone footage, hours of it, of flies doing that. And I don’t want mine to do that. I want mine to set up, come tight as far out as I can. Hence the men hold my rod out there and walk that thing real slow coming across. Now again, they’re right too because like I said, that fish is gonna move and you find the right fish, they’re gonna eat whatever. Eric (1h 33m 35s): So them going straight 90 even though that fly’s going down river and then kind of slightly down river and side profile, then side profile and then finally kind of like cocked up a little bit in side profile the last little bit, if a fish sees that they’re gonna eat it, like they’re going to eat it as it’s coming into their face, they’re going eat it. They might even turn and go down river, like a little bit of an angle and eat it. They’re gonna eat your fly. Right? So we’re both kind of correct in that aspect. I just don’t like that. Brian (1h 34m 5s): All right. So I got a couple questions for you guys before we, before we wrap things up. And I, and I always try and find a way to add some value to the listeners, hopefully, you know, obviously Eric, you got a ton of guiding experience, Zach, I think you bring a really unique perspective to guiding. So I’m gonna ask you guys both to answer the same question. And that’s for anyone listening who’s considering paying money for a guide, for a steelhead guide in particular. What should they be asking the guide prior to the trip to ensure that they’re, you know, get the most out of it? Zach, you can go first. 3 (1h 34m 38s): Hmm. What should they be asking? The guide. Just expectations on how they want the day go. How do they prefer to guide? How do they plan the day? What’s a, what’s a good day in the experience of a guide? And I would wish I had asked that more of people and just like, what are you hoping to get? Because I like to, I’m not sure man. I, I like to, I like to see what kind of people they are. I want to, I want to see if they’re more into learning. ’cause that’s kind of the guy that I am. I probably annoyed the hell outta Eric the whole time. So I was asking about rowing, about just constant questions about guiding and fish. Like when I went with somebody like that, that that does this so much I want to learn. 3 (1h 35m 23s): And I just say, you kind of break the ice before that. Have a nice little chat. Just see what kind of human the other one is and where, where you find common ground in literally anything doesn’t have to be with fishing, because then you can make a lot of analogies and a lot of metaphors based around some familiar topic that they both do. If, if some guy played hockey, I’m like, all right, we got that. If somebody skateboarded, I’m like, all right, I’m gonna, do you find something that you both have in common and then roll with that. Nice. Brian (1h 35m 58s): I like that. 3 (1h 35m 59s): That’s a weird answer, but that’s what I like. Brian (1h 36m 1s): No, no, that’s a good answer. Eric, you’re up. Eric (1h 36m 3s): Yeah, I mean I, I think, you know, you’re asking what should the client ask the guide, but I, I don’t really know about that. I’m kind of more with Zach on like what the guide can, can ask the client. You know? I think that’s the thing is a lot of people that are hiring guides, you know, I know quite a few that are good fishermen and have the, you know, means to do it and just enjoy being guided and spending time with us or whoever they may hire. A lot of ’em are kind of newer to it or, or getting started or whatever. So, you know, when I started out, I, I never did indicator fishing for steelhead. I nothing against it. I just find it boring and I don’t wanna spend my day doing it. So I never did any guide trips set. So when somebody calls me for a trip, I make sure that they know that we’re throwing spay rods. Eric (1h 36m 44s): If they haven’t, I let ’em know. There’s a very, very, very almost non-existent chance that you’re gonna catch a fish when we go out because unless it’s absolutely right, meaning high water warm and somewhere past February, the chances are small ’cause maybe the fish are close and there’s a lot of them and they’re in the mood. So if it’s cloudy, it’s warm high water. Yeah, I’ve seen people have never caught one before. Catch one. That’s the time. If it’s any other time, no. If you’re from the north, you know, Pacific Northwest and you want to get into steelheading, think of this as like an eight hour steelhead class. Like there’s a chance of catching one. Eric (1h 37m 26s): Let’s focus more on technique. If it’s guys that have thrown a two-hander plenty, they want to go chase, it’s like okay, they don’t need to really ask anything. But what I try to do is, you know, first run of the day, that first light, like all I’m trying to do is get them a fish. So it’s really like, hey, a little bit more line. Don’t step down yet. Like couple more poles. If you got it, like you’re throwing it too far across angle a little bit down. Like this is the mend I want you to do. Take the rod, like lift it up and pull it back so it straightens out. Drop that rod. That’s deeper. We gotta get sink time on that fly before it starts swinging. Get ’em right before they start stepping through the run. If it’s right, then I’m like, yeah, just do that until I say either come in a little, go out a little shorten up the line like I’m gonna fish myself through you through this run. Eric (1h 38m 9s): This isn’t where you’re gonna become. Like there’s not a specific technique, it’s just me fine tuning your stuff. ’cause I think we have a good shot of catching a fish here as the day progresses. Maybe it’s busier or there’s somebody in a run, maybe down river or something, fishes better later in the day. ’cause the sun’s behind a wall. We’ll pull off in a spot and I’ll be like, Hey, you know that as you’re fishing. Like this is what I kind of like to do. So one thing I try to do with people is like, and it doesn’t always happen ’cause a lot of times I get in fish mode and I am just tweaking their fish like they’re fishing to try to catch them that fish or few fish throughout the day. The guys that come with me a lot, we have a good rapport and I know that they don’t have to catch a fish every time ’cause it’s happened a lot. Eric (1h 38m 52s): So then I’m like, Hey, I think you’re ready. Like Ben Glick, perfect example. He’s been fishing with me for years. Good steel header catches fish, but his shit, when he goes to pull it outta the water, any snap anything, he, his first motion is always upriver instead of a vertical motion to get that Skagit head moving all the way outta the water. Then when you accelerate that tip comes out super easy. ’cause he’s always doing this halfway through the day shoulder and I notice it. But he wasn’t ready. He hadn’t caught enough fish. He, I could tell he wasn’t gonna soak it up. So I was like, four years later I was like, Hey, you know it’s gonna make your shoulder feel a lot better. He is like, what? I go down there, I’m like, instead of going up river like this, just lift the rod vertically until you can see the end of the skagit. Eric (1h 39m 36s): Then do your acceleration and just do a little, little circle instead of this big demonstrative motion. And he like does it. And he is like, oh, that’s tight. Why didn’t you show me that earlier? I’m like, ’cause you weren’t good enough to do it. Like you’re gonna try to do a little snap. The line’s gonna wrap around the rod tip. Like you’re just, you’re gonna be a cluster. I’ve seen it. I’ve tried to show people that before. It seems super easy. They either don’t do it, can’t remember, or they’re cluster and he’s like, oh that’s sweet. And that’s just like a little something, right? So like throughout the day you try to pick one thing, you know, you ask like, what should clients be asking? Guides. People wanna be taught stuff. Even if they’re like, I’m chill man, I just, I’m happy to be out here. It’s just nice to be not at work and float down a river. Eric (1h 40m 16s): Both things can be true. They’re not gonna be like, I really want to take away something useful. That’s a technique I don’t know how to do that. I can practice to make me a better angler. Usually that’s not gonna come outta their mouth. But if I was like, Hey Brian, we’re gonna flow down a river. You’re not gonna be at work. It’s gonna be an enjoyable day. We may catch fish, but also behind door number three is a technique that is gonna make you a better angler that you could practice when you’re not on the water with me that you’re gonna find challenging and fun. They’re like, yeah, what can we do that too? It’s like, yeah, we can do that. Then that’s like they, each trip they go on, there’s these skills that they’re learning and practicing and I go, Hey Brian, remember last time we showed you how to bring your line up outta the water so your shoulders didn’t hurt to set that anchor up? Eric (1h 41m 2s): They go, yeah. I’m like, you’re forgetting to do that. Let’s keep doing that. Halfway through the day it’s like, okay, now we got this other little tip. The next time we go out, hey, remember how to bring the skagit out of the water for your shoulder? Yep, I’ve been doing it. Oh, remember that second tip about straighten your fly. Yep, I’ve been doing that. Okay, well guess what now we’re gonna work on as that fly’s coming in the inside, getting your rod on the water, tip on the water. So that running line grabs that little bit of less than walking speed current and pulls your fly through that last little bit. Keeping tension on the fly, keeping that speed that I talk about so much that I like, instead of having your rod a foot and a half outta the water and not having tension, let’s do that every cast now. Eric (1h 41m 43s): And so over time they turn in just these absolute predators where there’s a couple guys out now where I’m like, this is me fishing. Like, not even like, that’s not like a ego stroke or look at me, great. I’m watching them. I’m, I’m like, I’m watching myself fish. This is fucking sick. Like, and then that confidence in me is like they’re gonna get ’em. Like, these guys are low and clear, doesn’t matter. Gonna get ’em high water. Getting ’em early season, getting them if they’re there. And so it’s really rewarding after, after so long. I will like to add before we get outta here, the one thing that I touched on last time that you brought up speed, like all the years fishing, all the years guiding this last year. Eric (1h 42m 24s): I feel like for me that’s the epiphany. That’s, that’s it. That’s in every fishing. I, I’m pretty sure it’s salt water, it’s trout fishing, it’s everything. The speed of the water those fish sit in, I’m convinced is the same across every species. Because last week we’re bass fishing, we’re fishing and I just, I was like, it’s too fast. Like, and it wasn’t crazy fast. I was like just stripping the fly that same quarter down 45, that swing, that the tension as I’m stripping, I’m like, this doesn’t, and the fly didn’t look right and I’m not even a good bass fisherman. I’m just like, this doesn’t feel right. And then all of a sudden we like 30 feet down. I made a cast and I was like, I was like, oh, that’s, that’s better fish came out, ate the fly right? Eric (1h 43m 5s): Then three times today with kolby, just pound in the bank with a rattle trap, just searching for fish and then like throwing fly after I’m like, fast, fast, fast, fast, fast, feel the boat slow down just a little bit. I’m like, no, a little fast, a little fast. And then I like look at the bank and I can see the phone. I’m like, oh, there should be one in there. We just fished for 40 minutes. First cast crank twice, fish on like speed. So one thing I can tell people, whether you fish forever, it’s your first day. All that other stuff is really important. All the techniques are really important. But if there’s one nugget that I think is the most important thing to catch fish is learn the speed that fish want to be in the speed of the river that fish wanna be in. Eric (1h 43m 49s): If you can get that speed right, whether looking at foam, how fast it’s going down the bank. If you’re allowed to fish out of a drift boat, how fast you’re going, like back row your drift boat till it stops, then pick your oars up and just float down the river if you can with very minimal strokes of just steering and not pushing or back rowing. And when you catch fish, try to notice how fast that drift boat’s going. ’cause that is the speed. It didn’t matter if it was shallow water, deep water with steelhead, shallow water, deep water bass, shallow water, deep water with trout. The speed that that river’s going at whatever CFS that is at that magic number, they’re in there and they eat food. Eric (1h 44m 31s): So faster water, they could be, you know, down in the pavement, not coming up slower water, I don’t know, not if oxygen don’t wanna be in there at all, but that perfect speed, they are there and they’re, they’re down to clown. They’re gonna eat your shit. And so that’s like, now I’m like being like, oh shit dude. Like I don’t even think I need to look anything else. I just need to find that speed and just throw a bunch of flies in there and then when it gets fast row past all this shit ’cause I’m just wasting time because we threw a giant chrome chartres thing that rattles, you can hear from space in a bait fish size and didn’t touch a fish and then all of a sudden just bang, bang, bang, bang and then nothing and then bang, bang, bang, bang. Eric (1h 45m 11s): And it’s like they’re all on the same speed. Like they’re all on the same speed of water. All those fish in the Chena every time that fly was swinging same speed. And I’m like, I think there’s some dots that are connecting here and it only took 20 years, but that’s something I would tell people is I think that’s highly underlooked and undervalued. Brian (1h 45m 31s): Well I think, I think that’s a great answer, Eric, is kind of what I was hoping one of you guys would bring up. And that’s, you know, as guides we spend a lot of time working on people’s cast and you know, telling them when to cast, but I think it, it’s easy to overlook the most important thing and that’s getting their fly moving with the right amount of tension at the right speed in water, that’s the right speed. So I, I feel like it’s great advice for, for clients to really wanna work on their swing and, and try and get your opinion on you know, what the right speed is and, and how do they replicate it. So that, that’s a good one. We’re gonna get outta here in a second, but I, I, I really wanna give you guys a chance to talk a little bit more about how folks can find you. Brian (1h 46m 11s): Eric, you’ve got the variety of guiding you do. You guys got the shop, you got the new, the new podcast coming out, which I’m excited to hear Zach, I love learning more about the work you’re doing with the foundation. How do people find you guys? Let’s start with you Eric and then we’ll we’ll wrap it up with Zach so let us know how how folks can get in touch with you. Eric (1h 46m 30s): Yeah, easiest ways Instagram handles just Mike hea, which funny enough means Rainbow Trout and Russian. That’s a backstory that I didn’t know about. Thought I meant steel it, I was wrong. My website’s fly fish Portland. So just think, what do you wanna do? Fly fish, where do you wanna do it? Portland fly fish portland.com. We both work at Northwest Fly Fishing Outfitters here in Portland, Oregon. So look up Fly Shop Portland and there’s the Portland Fly Shop, there’s Northwest Fly Shop which we work at and there’s royal treatment. So there’s three shops there we’re N-W-F-F-O and then yeah, our podcast is called, the Struggle is real, pretty self-explanatory. It’s gonna be on Spotify and Apple and all that stuff and it’ll probably be coming out the end of June, maybe beginning of July, just Zach and I talking all things fishing and just kinda what it’s like being guides and stuff that’s going on in our life. Eric (1h 47m 23s): And maybe people listen, maybe people don’t, but it’s kinda something that we just want to catalog too when we’re 80 maybe I can, you know, still have all those Spotifys downloaded and be like, oh yeah, I remember when I used to actually be able to row and go fish and be a smart ass and all that stuff. So I’m looking forward to that. 3 (1h 47m 38s): Hell yeah, Instagram is super easy for me. Zachary Scott Caruthers. Yeah, my website is zach caruthers.com Also find me at Northwest Fly Fishing Outfitters. That is very easy. Yeah man, I like hanging out with people. I like taking people fishing. Let’s talk music, let’s go camping and if yeah, if you’re struggling or knows somebody that is, yeah, ripple, ripple effect. Come hang out with us, we’ll take you fishing. Eric (1h 48m 5s): I would like to add one last thing I, I’d feel awful. You know, I just think of of him as part of the crew when you’re asking people that influenced us and helped us. When the shop sold two years ago, the goal base bought it and yeah, David and Don do a really good job, but David, the, the husband, he’s the guy runs on lithium batteries and maybe one of the best, if not best bosses I’ve worked for ever. He’s turned that shop 180 degrees. Not that Jack ever did a bad job, it’s just a different shop and it’s just doing some really great stuff with the, with the community. And I know he works his tail off, so does Dawn. So does Gabe. And Ethan, that whole family, I’m super grateful. Eric (1h 48m 45s): Everybody was kind of worried when the shop sold. Some people kind of jumped ship, they didn’t know it was gonna happen. I’m so happy I stuck around. It’s just like the shop is just kicking ass and I’m, I’m just really excited to, to see you know where it goes and all the cool things that we have in store and it’s just such a good crew and yeah, he’s just leading the charge. So big shout out to David. He just helps so much with classes and guiding and promoting us. It’s, it’s awesome 3 (1h 49m 12s): Everything. He’s fantastic Brian (1h 49m 14s): Man. I love the positivity. If you guys are fun to hang out with, I am stoked that we are gonna get a chance to fish together this summer. This is gonna be awesome and always a pleasure to speak with you. Look forward to doing it again. Thank you very much. You guys appreciate your time. Eric (1h 49m 29s): Thanks Brian. 3 (1h 49m 30s): Thank you. Brian (1h 49m 34s): Right on folks. That was a lot of fun. I wanna thank Eric and Zach for speaking with me today. I’m stoked that these guys will be joining us at the lodge this summer. I know we’re gonna have some great times. Thanks to everyone tuning in, it’s a lot of fun having these conversations and I’m really looking forward to the shows we’re working on for the summer. Once again, I also want to thank everyone that’s emailed with show ideas and comments. I appreciate you taking the time to write in. You can reach me at info@senaspay.com. You can find in the Bucket podcast online at www in the bucket podcast.com. If you’re on Instagram, you can follow us at in Theb Bucket podcast. Brian (1h 50m 14s): Look for the next episode of In The Bucket Coming Your Way in the first week of July. Until then, I’m Brian Ska and you’ve been listening to In The Bucket Podcast, brought to you by the wet Fly swing.