How to Choose A Fly Rod Setup with Travis Duddles – Gorge Fly Shop, G Loomis, Echo (WFS 133)

Travis  7:08  

Well, at least half the time at least half. That’s not bad. No, no, I mean, this time of year, we don’t get as as much wind. Same thing in the fall, winter time we get the cold East winds and then in the summertime, you get your westerlies, but yeah, it’s we’ve had summers where it blows, you know, 90 out of 95 days. Yeah. That’s not uncommon at all.

Dave S  7:32  

That’s cool. Well, I want to dig in I want to come circle back to that 17 year old kid he to open to the shop. It may be a little bit later if we have time, because I think that’s really pretty cool. But let’s dig into some rods and lines. I actually had a person that listens to the podcast recently, and they were asking they’re in the market for a new trout rod. And I was hoping we can maybe just talk about trout rods and selecting a rod and line and You know how somebody might that somebody like that might go about it? And he’s not brand new, you know, he’s been doing it, but he’s got some questions about what to do. Can you just just start us off talk a little bit about, you know, when you think about rods, it seems like there’s all sorts of different ranges of prices. Can you talk a little about what somebody should be thinking about when they’re choosing their next rod?

Travis  8:20  

Sure. Well, the first question for everybody is, is always going to be are you going to replace a rod? Or is it going to be a rod in addition to to the rod you already have, because if you’re going to replace your main trout rod and you need something versatile, you’re probably looking for a nine foot five weight. If you’re going to add to what you already have. Then we need to see what type of you know situations you’re going to do with that rod. So that’s always the first question that helps us decide which direction to go on a rod. from there, because it is confusing for people. There’s all different prices and in all different models of rods And the thing I hear all the time is, you know, I don’t want to spend that much because I’m not that good, right? That’s honestly probably the biggest mistake an angler could make. I always tell people by by budget, because if your budget tends to be that, once you see the difference, you’ll go to a better rod or a better piece of equipment, then you’re probably gonna spend a lot more in the long run. Yeah, and we watch people do it all the time. They spent $100 on the first Rod 300 on the second 500 on the third, and then they finally go out and spend eight 900 bucks. So just I always tell people, there’s there just because you spend a lot doesn’t mean get a good rod and that’s where you probably should get some good advice. Because there’s all different tapers. On the tapers. You know where the flex point of the rod is. If you get a rod that’s too fast for your skill, then it’s harder to cast If you get a rod that’s too soft, it may not have enough power. So I usually in an all around round rod look for something right in the middle, kind of that medium fast to moderately fast. That tends to be a good all around taper. And I tell anglers buy, you know, spend what you can because as you move up, they get more efficient. The more efficient they get, the more feedback you get. And the quicker you learn. 

Dave S  10:30  

Okay. And and what have been sold on that price on you mentioned the, the 100 300 500 800. do you and there’s even some that are higher than that like 1500 I mean, can you talk about the the rods would recommend so if somebody was coming in there, I guess maybe let’s just take for rods, let’s say they got you know, 200 or under more than 500 range more than 800 and more over 1000 what what would you say if they came in, they need a nine foot five wieght, they they’re just replacing an old rod. They Have it’s not that great of a rod, do you have a rod that you’d recommend? Or how do you choose between because you have multiple companies there, right?

Travis  11:09  

We do. We have a lot of different companies. I think we’re up to 13 different rod companies now. And every company’s got his strong suit. You know, it seems like you know, every year, somebody’s kind of being replaced as our favorite high end rod and same thing in the lower end, you know, in that 200 and under range. We have a lot of great rods by echo and reddington. We sell a lot of the, the echo carbon, that’s a good rod for 150. Okay. And then the reddington vise is about 200 at around $300. We have a handful of choices, but but we tend to prefer the sage Foundation, we just tend to find that to be a better value in it. is kind of your first step into the US made rods we carry and there’s some advantages there with warranty repairs down the road you know, sage for example has mandrels where they can build parts for rods that are 20 years old. So there’s some advantages there. The next price points right around 500 that we tend to see a real big difference and in you know we have we have kind of four rods around that range the the sage Paul’s the Loomis I MX Pro, the Scott flex and the Thomas and Thomas zone. I tend to tend to you know think that the IMX Pro at that range tends to be a favorite. The pulse was a real close second you know, they’re all four great rods. you’re kind of splitting hairs but but that I am X Pro, okay. And then you know your next price point that you see a lot of rods at is that eight to 900 range. we’ve got rods you know the Winston airs a great rod, the Loomis and our x plus is a great, really good rod. The sage x, the sage Ll, the difference between the LL and the X is the LL are much softer rod. So if somebody is doing a lot more close quarters and more delicate presentation, they might go that route if they’re doing more heavy emptying and and needing a little more power, the Sage X and then, you know, there’s the kind of the new price point which Loomis said a few years ago with the Asquith and you know, they’ve got a rod that’s 1100 bucks. And I always tell people when they go who’d spend 1100 bucks I look at him with a smirk and say don’t cast it. You’ll want it. Yeah. But, but yeah, that’s probably the biggest mistake. That would be that a beginner and intermediate caster makes is they don’t think that they’ll be able to appreciate a more quality run. It’s actually just the opposite. In a perfect world, a beginner would start with the most efficient run on the shelf.

Dave S  14:16  

Yeah, that’s right. So that gives us a little rundown. So yeah, so based on your budget, that’s a great tip, you know, and we gave a little example there and the the Asquith width is more of the over 1000. What was the Loomis rod at the lower end? There wasn’t one at the very far what’s their lowest end?

Travis  14:32  

IMX Pro. And what in that one’s in the 300 range? Or is

it No, it’s 525. Okay, so

Dave S  14:39  

Louis is just another they’re kind of that upper level, they don’t really have any the low lower cost lower price point.

Travis  14:45  

Yeah, it’s getting harder and harder for those companies to do a $300. Just you know, I don’t know what Sage makes on the on the foundation now. But you know, I’ve heard things over the years that $300 companies are barely breaking even Sometimes on us made wrong. 

Dave S  15:03  

Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. Well in the company, I mean, I think about all those companies. So out of all those companies we just mentioned before off air, I talked to George Cook. I was editing that podcast and he’s, you know, been the sales rep for a while. Tom Larimer, who we obviously know, he’s with G. Loomis. I guess he’s not the rep. Yeah, exactly. But who are the other companies that are local, more local, that they’re around in your area?

Or the you know, well,

Travis  15:30  

Loomis and sage, of course, are our you know, the, to the closest reading reddington in echo. You know, they’re going to be your import rods. Yeah. And and, you know, the next closest is Winston and then Scott. And, you know, they’re, they’re Montana and Colorado. Where is that? We’re sage. sages Bainbridge Island.

Dave S  15:55  

Oh, Bainbridge really I didn’t even know exactly. That’s kind of crazy. Yeah. So they’re right up there. Yep, yeah, yeah, so they are pretty local.

Travis  16:05  

Yeah, yeah, they’re not they’re not far away at all. And they’ve been there for forever since they started. Gotcha.

Dave S  16:12  

Okay. So I guess I was trying to get to that point you know the difference between the low end and high end and we’ve talked a little bit about this with people some definitely some guests on the podcast but basically what you get is a more efficient a lighter, what any other attributes to the more expensive rod that you’re going to get compared to the more than 300 range or lower?

Travis  16:32  

Well, probably the biggest thing is is the better the graphite material, which tends to compare to cost. The better the graphite material, the more you rely on the graphite for power. So they can typically taper the blank at a more comfortable taper and not have to make it as stiff. So you get a lot of line speed line speeds, good line speed, so it gives you accuracy was what gives you power into the wind. It’s what gives you control but you can get more line speed with a much more comfortable or a softer taper if that makes sense.

Dave S  17:10  

And is that similar to you know because we hear a lot about fiberglass now to these days and they’re more of a softer rod is there a comparison there on the fiberglass end?

Travis  17:22  

Well, it’s hard it’s hard to compare I mean, I wouldn’t tell anybody that a fiberglass is a more efficient rod there’s a lot of people go into fiberglass for the retro

casting aspects of it.

It’s you know, you’re not going to get as much fill obviously and, and you’re not going to get the lightspeed It doesn’t mean fiberglass is a bad material. It’s just it’s hard to compare fiberglass and graphite. That’s you know, there’s there’s a world of difference.

Dave S  17:54  

And do you feel that the graphite has been getting faster and faster and faster at to a point where Maybe some people feel like it’s almost too fast. They’re going back to fiberglass or what’s your take on that?

Travis  18:06  

Well, that’s you hear that. But truthfully, we have a few rods on our shelf, there are some of the softest graphite rods, you know, that have been built. The mistake that anglers make, because they judge your rod by shaking it. They see it all the time and say, grab a rod off the shelf and go, this is too stiff, oh, this is what I want. Yeah. And you cannot tell by doing that. I don’t care how good you are. And that’s simply because the lighter a gram of material is and the more efficient the material is, the less it will shake under its own weight. And so, so I do this all the time, go grab a rod and say, oh, that one’s too stiff. I don’t know why everybody likes that. It’s just too stiff. And I go over and I grab another rod that’s going to feel similar and but I know is a faster taper. In I always tell people don’t confuse taper and line speed. There’s nothing bad about fast line speed. You know, you can get too fast of a taper and struggle with that. And so I’ll grab two rods and the one that’s, you know, the more efficient rod that feels stiffer when you shake it. I’ll put a little weight on the tips. And then I’ll look at him go, which ones actually flexes deeper and a lot of times are surprised that the rod they thought was stiffer, actually flexes a lot deeper than what they thought, And that goes back to the efficiency. The lighter that material is for its given strength, the less it’s going to flex itself when you shake it, but the more power goes to the line. If that makes and that’s why when you grab fiberglass and you shake it, it wobbles all over the place. And it’s just because it has got a lot more weight to strength ratio.

Dave S  19:57  

Okay,

Travis  19:58  

but, but you can easily buy The wrong rod, you know, we will get people that you know, end up buying a really fast, tapered rod and they spent a lot of money and they want that rod and then they come back and go, I can’t cast it, you know, I’m struggling with it or they end up overlying in it to the point that they’ve taken all the performance away from the rod. And that’s just buying the wrong taper. 

Dave S  20:26  

yeah, that that that clarifies. So I’ll actually put a link up at wetflyswing.com/rod , our rod, I’ll put a link to some of the stuff we’re talking about and links out to your site. I’ll cover this a little bit more on the affiliate link we have going here but I wanted to kind of clean this up too and get into the lines a little bit because I think obviously that’s part of it and getting the right line for the rod. So we’ve talked about a few rods, what lines, do you recommend when somebody comes in, I guess also we’re talking about you know, Coming into the shop is the best thing, obviously, if they can, but, if somebody is out there, then they were picking something up, through online, where I’m trying to get to that point where we can say, you know, this is what you’d recommend and say we got a nine foot. Wait, what do you recommend for lines?

Travis  21:15  

Well, the tough one with that, and that’s where they probably should call if they can come in and just at least before they make their purchase online, get the right line. The first thing we always ask is, just like with the rod, what are you going to do with it? Secondly, is what rod do you have? So I literally treat rods like cars and lines like tires. Everybody wants to understand fly lines, you know, consumers, they’ll come in and go, they’re just making it too confusing. You know, I don’t know what to buy. And I look at him go that’s a good thing. Yeah. And they kind of look at me funny and I go because now we have so many choices. We can dial your rod in for the purpose. You know what you’re going to use or what your how you You’re going to cast that rod or we can dial it in for what we call feel, which is dialing that rod in. So it’s as easy as possible to cast and you can do lines to do both. But, you know, more experienced angler might might go more for a specialty purpose line. And in the average angler should probably worry more about loading the rod up for for its best performance and easiest casting. So the tough part with that one is Dave is literally between two different rods, we might recommend totally different lines. For ease, I mean, it’s really I tell people, it’s just like if you had a garage, and in there you had a Honda Accord. Yeah, family, you know, car. You had a four wheel drive pickup truck and you had a brand new Corvette. If you put the same tire on all of them. The Honda Accord won’t care. Yeah, the trucks gonna get stuck in the mud. And the Corvettes gonna hit the first wall on Friday night race night if you take it to the track and, and so so that makes it tough for anglers just to go out and buy stuff I mean, unfortunately you know we don’t have the time to call everybody that that orders online but you know we see combinations constantly that it’s like oh, you know their friends helping them shop again, you know? Yeah, we have a little saying buddies helped buddies buy equipment twice. Not that all friends don’t know what they’re doing but you know, they just don’t have as much experience. Yeah. So if you had to pick some of the you know, kind of top lines that we sell, but still it’s going to be dependent on your rod. The RIO golds and grands, the Gold’s is, is the gold is kind of a longer taper arm and it’s designed for really softer rods or that person that is a true distance caster, maybe Lake fishing and casting longer range. The grand is, is more of what I call in our highly modified weight forwards, it’s a way forward taper, but they’ve moved a lot more of the weight up in the front 10 to 15 feet, and it’s a little bit heavy to begin with. So you get the feeling at 10 and 15 feet of line out of your rod, you get the feeling of a lot of load. And the reason why that is, is think about trout fishing on the Deschutes. If you’re cast and more than 25 or 30 feet, you lose all your line control so you need to move up closer. So most of the time you’re casting with 10 or 15 feet a line out the rod tip and you need that rod to load well at that range. And that’s what that line does well, so and it works really well on fast rods for people. The other line that’s been really popular for us as the scientific anglers amplitudes mood and the Infinity taper. That’s a really good all around line and it tends to like, tends to match up really well with a lot of our medium fast and fast rods. And it’s a great all around taper.

Dave S  25:12  

Okay, perfect. And those are two lines. I think the RIO is more of the local line and scientific Angler. I mean, they’re both pretty common lines right all around the country.

Travis  25:23  

Oh, yeah. Yeah, the you’ll find them all around. Yeah, definitely. 

Dave S  25:29  

So the RIO Yeah, go ahead.

Travis  25:32  

Oh, I was just gonna say, you know, that it’s, it’s, we get that all the time. What’s your favorite fly line? And it’s like, it’s so tough because, you know, we’re 25 years ago when I had the shop. It was a courtland 444 SL right or a peach 444 and you put it on, you put your favorite line on every rod you own. Yeah. And there are a lot of rods that we thought back weren’t very good. And you know what if we had those rods back today, and we had all the fly lines we have, they might be a whole lot better than what we thought.

Dave S  26:09  

No kidding. So that’s it and Cortland is obviously been around for a long time. And they’re still in the game. I think they’ve gone through some different ownership. But I do remember that 444 was Yeah, that was it, man. That’s all you needed. They pretty much you get on and you’re you’re good a little double tape or even the right back then it was and do you see the double taper thing? Is that is that not a popular thing anymore?

Travis  26:32  

It’s still there. You know, you definitely don’t sell many. And like I explained the guys when they asked, you know why? Why is the double taper bad? It’s not bad. It’s just you don’t have choices and tapers. You know, there’s only a few tapers out there. And with these highly modified weight forwards, you can do so much when you get the right line. I tell people, I can Change lines on a rod out here on the casting lawn. And literally, you’ll swear I changed rods. It makes that much of a difference. no Kidding. But with double tapers, you don’t have that ability. You know, there’s just not that that many variations of double tapers, okay?

Dave S  27:20  

And so that’s the so if we looked at the Rio Grande just to kind of make maybe simplify a little bit, just for one example here, what would be a rod in the say in that middle of the range, the 500 range, you know, say somebody’s upgrading their nine foot, you know, five weight whatever rod they have, what would be a good rod that would line up with that Rio Grande that we mentioned before?

Travis  27:42  

Well, for the average angler that you know, they cast between that 45 and 60 foot maximum range, and there that would be in a lake situation. In a river they shouldn’t be cast more than 30 feet. Both the sage pulse and the IMX Pro. That’s a really nice line on there for anglers, because it loads in close easy, but yet, you know, it still gives them that cast 60 feet. So it’s a good match.

Dave S  28:12  

And what was that? Can you clarify that again? The 30 foot again, you said you mentioned there with the lake. So with the Sage Pulse is there a max distance that you’re going to be casting this thing?

Travis  28:22  

No, no, it’s, it’s what it is, is most anglers they hit a wall with their casting ability. Oh, 45 and 60 feet. So in a lake, that’s where you might be cast in 45 or 60 feet, you can cast longer range and you don’t have current in a river anglers are always trying to reach out a little further but honestly, if they just wait a little closer, and keep their cash short, they have much better line control. And in a river with all the current that line controls really critical. Yep.

Dave S  28:56  

Gotcha. Okay, that makes it and then and then again, so the Rio Grande and that’s it. You mentioned the difference wasn’t the RIO Gold The difference? Is that one’s a little more performance for longer cast and that sort of,

Travis  29:08  

right. Yeah, a longer cast are softer rods, you know, rods, if, if the average angler puts a real gold on about half the rods that I talked about, and went to cast all day, you know, 15 to 25 feet, he’s probably not he or she’s probably not getting the load out of the rod that they need. Because they they’re in there at a skill level that they need to feel more what’s going on. And if your rods not loaded, you don’t have control. so the gold is better on softer rods or, you know, for somebody that’s gonna be cast in longer range in a lake situation. Okay,

Dave S  29:55  

Okay, perfect. Yeah, we won’t dig into all I mean, there’s all sorts of rabbit holes. We can Go down with stillwater and euro nymphing, we’re just, I’m trying to keep this focus just because I think it will help some people that are maybe just in the market for a general whatever you would call that a generalist, Rod. So we’re thinking nine foot five weight. And so I guess before we go to the next thing here, if we were going to that more than 800 or $1,000 range in that area, what the grand of the Rio Grande would there be a rod that would sit well with that one?

Travis  30:29  

The NRX plus would work pretty well with that one, what what you find is you get up into these, these higher end rods, I tell people that are a little more line temperamental. And that’s not bad. It’s more it’s not that they won’t cast with with a lot of these lines. It’s that certain lines don’t feel very good on them. And the reason why that is is you get a lot more feedback to your hand. You get a lot more feeling of what the lines doing. And so So say a grande has a pretty short arm really heavy front 15 feet in the taper. And then it transitions into you know, the head narrows down and then goes back to about 30 35 feet and then tapers down to the running line. So it will cause a little little bit of a clunk you know when it turns over and there’s a lot of those rods like a sage one for example, the Rio Grande was my favorite line fishing streams. The Sage X is a really close rod to the sage one when it comes to performance, but it’s a little bit more efficient. You put a Rio Grande on that rod, it doesn’t feel that great. And it’s because you really feel all that clunk. So, so if I were to put a grand on any of those, it would probably be the NRX plus or a Scott radiant. Okay, that’s where I think two grand works better. On the Asquith on the on the Sage X or NRX LP.

Dave S  32:04  

I think that,

Travis  32:06  

you know, something like that scientific anglers infinity foe fishing standpoint tends to be a more comfortable fishing line. Gotcha. That to the affinity. Okay,

Dave S  32:15  

cool. Well, I think that gives us a little perspective. And I guess just to wrap this thing out on selecting these things, I mean, again, reel. I mean, we’re talking rods, lines, you know, probably the most important thing when you get down to trout, the reel is less important, but would you would you have a reel that you say you sell commonly with a rod? You know, again, if we were at that $500 price point with a, you know, at the sage pulse, what reel would you tend to set up with it?

Travis  32:41  

Well, you know, I kind of have this theory that that reels do matter. They don’t matter as much as the rod in the line. So, when you’re on a budget, obviously, we don’t want to spend $500 on a reel if you’re only gonna spend $500 on a rod. So, one of my favorite kind of price point or lower end but not you know, ultra low and real. It’s the Sage Spectrum C, you know, that’s about 150 bucks for a five, six and tends to be a real good real for the money. It’s been real reliable for us and it’s got a pretty smooth drag. Of course, you know, all anglers want to disc drag. The thing I always explained to him on trout is, is that’s great. But keep in mind, the smoother that drag is the more you can actually use it on trial. Because if your drag is not ultra smooth, then when you’re efficient five X or six X, tip it over the Deschutes you’re just going to pop fish off. Yep. And so really good carbon fiber drags, our, our, our what we prefer if you’re going to go to a disc drag on trout, and they’re going to cost a little more, they’re going to be in that three Hundred, you know, 400 even up to 500 range for something like, say a Nautilus X series, the sage spectrum LT’s are really nice carbon fiber drag, and then the Bauer sst’s.

Dave S  34:16  

Okay. And the spectrum I know that was one George mentioned when. We’re talking so spectrum at the higher end, say the 910. Is that going to be a carbon drag?

Travis  34:26  

Well, so the spectrum is divided up into four series, there’s a spectrum, see, then the next step up spectrum. Then there’s this next step spectrum LT, and then the spectrum max. So the differences, they’re all carbon fiber, but they’re all the disks are stacked differently and use different components. And so you know, the spectrum LT and the spectrum, they’re both good drags. They’re not going to be as smooth as say the spectrum LT. That’s one of their smoothest reels they build okay. And then the spectrum max that’s kind of the heavy duty big game real you know, that’s what I’d recommend if somebody was going bonefish and tarpon fishing and so as you move up and series they’re they’re each going to kind of have their own specialty and you know the LT like I said it’s more of the trout real and then the spectrum Max is the heavy duty big game room. Gotcha.

Dave S  35:27  

Okay cool. Yeah I think that gives gives everybody a little rundown on some ideas and obviously there’s the best thing to do would be to come into a local fly shop if you can’t then maybe call would be the next thing but like I said, I’ll try to put some links to some of the stuff we’re talking about at wetflyswing.com/rod and I’ll, you know, I know the person I’m thinking about on this one. He’s, I think this is going to help him because, having multiple price points and just understanding what again is anything else we’re missing there on the road to selecting the rod I’ll see want to add

Travis  36:02  

Well, I always tell anglers when I’m talking to him on the phone, you know, to be really honest with them about their casting skill. You know, people are embarrassed to say that, they’re they’re not great casters. And you know, we get it all the time on the phone you know, it’s Oh yeah, I guess 75 80 feet in the lakes. Yeah. So you you start setting them up that route and then they call and they’re having troubles and it’s got you kind of confused and you got a good idea of what’s going on. They’re probably not quite as good at casters what you know, they lead on to b and then they get over here to, to maybe play with some different lines that I have on a rod and you watch him cast and and you know, they’re 60 feet with a good tail and, and there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s the average caster and honestly, in most drought conditions, if you’re casting 30 feet, you’re casting too far. And so so what happens is, the more honest they are about their casting ability, the better we can set them up. Yeah. I’ll automatically just assume there are 45 to 50 foot caster, no matter how far they say they cast, because I’ve cast with enough anglers.

Dave S  37:23  

I was gonna say you subtract, maybe subtract 30% off of whatever anybody says and that’s probably more realistic.

Travis  37:30  

Yeah, well, you you’ve seen our casting lawn we haven’t. And you know, it’s a, it’s a 12 foot wide by about 81 foot green turf grass, casting lawn, and everybody wants us to stripe it every 10 feet, you know, look like a football field. Right? And I always tell people now we don’t we don’t put measurements on this because when the guy makes a 60 foot cast, he just swore he cast 75 or 80 feet, he just let him believe that

Dave S  37:58  

there you go. And now a quick word from our sponsors. Gotfishing.com a boutique booking agency for fishing adventures around the world got fishing is unique and working with a small hand selected group of Outfitters from around the world that are known for providing an experience that is second to none. Got Fishing can be your trusted source of information with access to the world’s best fishing trips. Their sole purpose is to help you plan the most authentic fishing adventure while making sure it fits within your budget. The beauty is that everything they do is 100% free, you will never pay a dime extra for your trip and in many cases less than advertised. I can attest personally to the surface that Got fishing provides as they have been working with me closely to set my first trip to the Yucatan for saltwater. They have taken care of all the important details and allowed me to avoid worrying about any of the complications. I know Brian and the crew have you covered at got fishing. Whether you need a fishing consultant, travel consultant gear pro or like they have you covered with top of the line Outfitters they represent around the world. They are confident they have Just the right trip for you. You can give them a call at 208-630-3373 or head over to Got fishing to get started today. Let God fishing help you plan the fishing trip you’ve been dreaming about. That’s gotfishing.com FTJ’s spring edition is packed with the best flight time instruction fly fishing techniques, destination articles and fly fishing stories. Here are a few of the featured fly tyers in the spring edition of the fly fishing and tying journal master flight tire Dave McNeese begins his multi part tutorial on the secrets of dyeing your own materials. I know this is a hot topic because I’ve been hearing about it from some listeners of the podcast so this is gonna be a big one. This is gonna be super helpful. We find out also how to tie big durable flies for predator, predatory fish and effective cicada pattern and we hear about a 14 year old fly tyer who’s who’s kicking some butt out there lined up sponsors and ambassadors. So We get to hear that story in the in the spring edition. Also Gary Lewis gives us a little rundown on diamond Lake as he heads out there and we’re also going to be heading to San Diego with Joe Warren who talks about tuna Dorado, wahoo and more. Dave Hughes provides a tribute to Frank Amato in the spring edition and we get an update on the short story contest. Lots of additional content in this one so head over to F TJ angler calm and subscribe so you don’t miss any of the tips, tricks and stories in the next issue. That’s FTJangler.com to get started today. Tell them you know you heard about the magazine from the podcast and all figured out a way to make it up to you. Okay, back to the show. When you’re out there I mean any you want to throw a casting tip maybe out for somebody that you know again, I think that is a struggle or where would they go if they want to become a more proficient caster are what what do you recommend?

Travis  40:57  

Well, you know, first off You gotta practice. Secondly, you know, taking lessons and just about every fly shops got, you know, either classes or somebody do private lessons I always recommend private. I think you get much more out of it. Probably the biggest casting tip. Yeah, the biggest mistake made is that casters use way too much a wrist in their cast. And you know, there are people that are taught to cast with their wrist and I’m not going to say that’s completely wrong. But most people when they use their wrists, they way over exaggerate. The rod tip makes too big of an arc. And you never get the performance out of the rod.

Unknown Speaker  41:44  

Yep. So you want to

Dave S  41:46  

keep somewhat of a stiff wrist?

Travis  41:49  

Yes, yes. And that’s and there’s lots of variations of that. Yeah. Yes, there are places you’ll bend their wrists, but for most casters, it You just tell them don’t bend the wrist, they’re going to get more out of a rod. And it’s the hardest thing to do. It’s a natural body movement. And you’ll swear you’re not doing it. And I always tell people when I’m on the phone with them and they’re struggling and they’ve got a rod and line combo, that should be really easy. I always tell them if they’re not here where they can come into the shop and cast, I said, just take your phone and videotape yourself. And watch that, that that wrist because you you end up taking some of the load out of the rod and the rod just not working as efficiently and I tell people it’s like buying a brand new Corvette and putting the throttle stop on it at 25% Yeah, tough. It’s not good. It’s not gonna give you the performance you want. Yeah,

Dave S  42:48  

that’s right. That’s right nowadays man with these cars, they don’t put their some of these. These dodges and all this stuff. These Ford Mustangs are crazy, right? They’ve got like, 500 horsepower. There’s There’s no throttle on any of those things.

Travis  43:03  

Yeah, well, no, there’s what they call the valet key. You know, you buy a new Hellcat, and it’s 700 and some odd horsepower and change and you give them the valet key and they only get 500 Oh, yeah. Nice.

Dave S  43:16  

Nice. Cool. Yeah, that is interest. I love the wrist conversation because I’ve had, you know, I kind of always, you know, thought about it as Yeah, you keep a stiff wrist and that’s how I learned but they you know, I talked to some people like Joan Wulff, you know, who mentioned that she really, especially on that double haul, you snap your you know, at the very end, you snap and that’s when you do your second haul. And then, Joe, I’ve had a couple other guests that have mentioned, you know, that snapping is a big part of it. Joe Humphries mentioned that and so I think you’re right, there’s variation

Travis  43:45  

in Tim Rajeff. Yeah, yeah, you know, he’ll use you watch him cast. But I think you know, also you got to realize their skill level and the range that those anglers are casting at And I think the tough part for somebody that’s newer to it, is, they will hear that or they’ll see that and then they go way too far with it. And your body is going to naturally want to bend your wrist a lot. And you know, yes, there are ways to sneak some extra power out of the rod with the wrist. But first you got to have good technique. Mm hmm. Yep.

Dave S  44:30  

No, that’s a good I think that’s another whole nother topic. You know, for a show then. I’ll probably dig into later on it but yeah, I did want to kind of wrap this up on some of the the rods and and the shop there. So. So one note, I was kind of thinking about you. one of the things you’ve got a ton of stuff, a ton of gear, all the everything. We’re talking about 13 different companies of rods, I think you mentioned. So fly tying isn’t something you’ve you’ve dug into at your shop and you actually have some signature flies and stuff. What was the reason behind that? Are you planning on ever getting into the flight time game?

Travis  45:03  

Well, we we did the flight time game for 20 oh yeah almost 27 years Oh yeah.

We just it you know, unfortunately for us we live in an area that we have a small local clientele you know we’ve we’ve got we don’t we’re not real close to the metro area and we’re not right on a major river that everybody’s traveling to fishing. So so the the traffic of tyers usually comes out of your local clientele but you’ve got, you know, some of those destination people that do it and over the years as the shop grew, you know, we kept watching the fly tying area gets smaller and smaller. And, you know, the cells unfortunately never really supported the area that it took up and it was about two years ago now that you know, we finally Unfortunately, you know, had to make the decision that that, you know, we weren’t going to carry it anymore. And we, we the plan was is you know, if we’re gonna if we’re going to do tying we wanted more products than what we could justify having because of our sales didn’t didn’t support having more products and eventually if we ever put it online that’s when we’ll go back to to have in time material so gotcha we just we need to move enough volume of it to to make it worth his time. Yeah,

Dave S  46:38  

exactly. That makes sense. Okay, cool. And there’s plenty of obviously these days there’s so many resources. I mean, look, I mean, God hairline is right down the highway down there. Lots of resources. But beyond that, you’re on the rod. So So what is your best say if you want to just jump into a best selling thing? What What is a trout rod nine foot five Wait, which one you think is the one you sell the most of it in there?

Travis  47:03  

Well, probably the sage foundation.  You know, that’s that 325 roughly $350 rod.  And, you know, it’s a, it’s a pretty easy upgrade for that person looking at something in that 150 to 200 you kind of point over to and say, Well, yeah, here’s some extra benefits for you arm and you know, they make that little step up, but, you know, it’s probably that rod at 325. And then honestly, it’s, you know, the rods up in that 900 1100 range. because once somebody sees the difference,

they tend to go right to the top. Yep,

Dave S  47:46  

that’s it. And then and then what about for I can’t leave you let you get out here without talking steelhead just for a second. So, what about steelhead right best best selling steelhead, if you talk about say, steelhead, maybe a spey On all round seven Weight, you know 12 and a half for sure seven weight.

Travis  48:04  

Sure. Well we’ve got a lot of great seven weights you know kind of at the top there’s that that Loomis Asquith and of course a lot of people hear about 13 foot seven that’s a great selling rod. The Burkheimer 7134 are really nice rods. Winston air, the new air TH they’ve got a really nice 13 three seven weight there. And then Loomis’ NRX plus is a pretty nice little 13 foot 13 three, seven wait. That’s been nice to Sage X. And then you know in that mid range, honestly, there’s not a lot of what I would you know, personally and of course I’m offensive people and I say this great 13 foot sevens you know? Loomis and their IMX Pro Series, it’s got a great little 11 11 seven weight, if somebody goes with something a little shorter, and then you know reddington an echo have got some, some great rods in that, you know, under $500 range. You know, we sell a lot of the echo TR’s and the echo full spey and the reddington Chromer’s and the reddington dooleys. You know, those are those are all good rods for that that person on a on a budget. Yep.

Dave S  49:34  

Yeah, perfect. Perfect. All right, that gives us a little idea. So, okay, well, we’re gonna we’re gonna be wrapping this up pretty quick. I just had some, I guess this is more of the rapid fire round to take us out of here. one thing I want to get back in touch on that, you know, again, that 17 year old, you know, back then because that just seems amazing. I think myself when I was 17. And, owning a shop, you know, at that level is, wasn’t really on my mind. Probably not a lot, a lot, a lot of people’s mind, but Can you take us that when you open the doors there and what that felt like when you frame were you down at the down at that downtown stores that were you opened up?

Travis  50:08  

Well, we actually for five years, we’re in a little spot in what they call the oak mall. So it was three blocks up the street from where we were before we moved out to our new location here. Yeah. And, and it was just a little spot. It was mainly ran, you know, we it was behind a little breakfast and lunch diner called Betty’s place. And, I shared there were four, four businesses in there. There was a Betty’s place a little cafe diner, and then there was a travel agency and there was a hair salon. And sorry, there’s a fifth there was Nicolas photography. And it was kind of dumb luck. I ended up there. And what I didn’t didn’t plan on was when the wind didn’t blow all the wind surfers came there to hang out and have breakfast. So they were bored and wanted something to do. So we taught a lot of them how to fly fish. Yeah, yeah. So we were there five years. And then in 97, we moved down to the location that you remember there on Oak Street, second and oak. And we were there for 22 years. And then of course, we moved out to the new facility here.

April of last year.

Dave S  51:26  

That’s right. That’s right. And how is the new move? Because you were down right downtown. And now you’re kind of about what is about 10 minutes outside of downtown?

Travis  51:34  

Yeah, it’s about you know, from exit 64 I think we’re right at about eight or seven minutes on the freeway. It’s actually worked out on the retail side better than what we thought just simply because we’re getting a lot more anglers in the shop now. That just hated to deal with the parking situation downtown. Yeah. You know, we’ve been They can pull into their drift boats or jet boat, their RV. You know, there’s just so many advantages that way. And what it did was, was we we had so many tourists coming in the shop that weren’t interested in fishing at all, that we had to spend a ton of money on labor demand the front door without the the revenues coming in to support it. And, you know, the online side supported that for a long time. The other problem was is we couldn’t spend the time with anglers in the shop, because we were constantly getting interrupted you know, with questions and this and that. So, yeah, somebody fitting waiters or somebody buying that new rod that honestly should be there for a while. They would kind of feel pressured. And you know, they would, they would, they would leave just simply because they they would feel like they’re eating up our time and They shouldn’t because that’s, you know, that’s what we’re here for. But what now that we moved, we sell far more rods and waders out of the front door. Which are the two things that you spend the most time deciding on.

Dave S  53:14  

Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, that makes total sense. Yeah. Because you got a big open area and tons that you can just drive up there. And that was the thing that the old shop they felt like it was. It was kind of Yeah, everything felt a little tight. You know, you’re tight there on the the busy street downtown, so it makes sense. That’s good to hear. everything’s working out. What Yeah, yeah. What What do you think for you know, if you had to give one tip to a new shop owner or somebody who’s maybe thinking about having a shop or getting into it, what would you tell them?

Travis  53:43  

Well, I tell them what a guy told me several years ago, you should put your money in land. There you go. No, no, I mean, you plan. I mean, it’s a much tougher period to open a store today than it was when I did, you know there weren’t that many fly shops around. And so I think, you know, there was a little bit of luck on my part when I started it but do a lot of planning you know, make sure that area has the need and keep in mind that that no matter how many anglers you have, they still love to shop online today. So that’s probably the you know, the biggest change compared to when I opened my store because when I opened my store most everybody went into a shop you had some mail order companies like Kaufman’s but most people went into a shop now, most people shop on their lunch hour from their phone. I mean, we see it here we shipped the Hood River we live in hundred.  Oh, yeah. And we’ve done that for years. You know, because it’s that person may come in the shop. Once in a while, but when they’re ready to buy something, they just click the button while they’re on their lunch hour. And the next day, it’s sitting at their door. That’s it.

Dave S  55:07  

So that’s it. That’s why this. Yeah, I mean, I think it is. Amazon probably had a lot to do with, making that so commonplace, even, next day shipping or having drones, all this crazy stuff they’re talking about. And you have a good I mean, maybe we could just plug that a little bit talk about, what we have going so basically, we have this a link set up and so when I have a couple different links, but when I mentioned there, I’ll put a wetflyswing.com/rod and there’s another one at wetflyswing.com/echo that goes to one of the echo rods, but at that link when people click through there, basically it tracks they see that it came through the wet fly swing website and then if they get a sale, then this podcasts we get a commission. That’s basically how that works, right?

Travis  55:57  

Sure. It’s just a way to help you out. And you know, get some new customers our way. So the setup so that if they enter through your website through one of those links, then it gives you credit for that, that sale that it was one of your customers. So you get a little commission that, you know, helps keep the podcast going.

Dave S  56:20  

Yep, yep. And that commission comes at basically no extra charge to the person, they they’re gonna pay the same price for that whatever that rod or whatever they buy there. It’s just that instead of a little bit of that money, that profit that you would have received you send over our way is basically how that works.

Travis  56:38  

Yep, yep, exactly. Yeah, there’s no extra charge. I mean, still, still free shipping over $50 and all that for the customer. There’s no change in any of that.

Dave S  56:47  

Yeah. So. So that’s a cool thing, because the free shipping over $50 I think is a really great, great thing because, you know, like we mentioned, like I mentioned their Amazon, it’s free shipping if you do the prime or whatever. So, I mean, essentially you’re kind of competing a little I mean not really. But I mean when you send this stuff is it going out? I mean, how do you get that stuff out? Are you getting out in two days? Three days? How’s all that work?

Travis  57:09  

Well we do our best to try to have everything that we see that we should be selling in stock. There’s obviously stuff that we don’t sell as much of that, we’ll order from a company or something. But if it’s in stock it it goes out the same day. I mean, we we really, you know, work hard to get everything shipped the same day.

Dave S  57:33  

Gotcha. So they so that person was in Mississippi right now sitting there and they and they were like okay, I that Sage pulse with the the Rio Grande. You know, that sounds like a good setup. And they go there today and click that at your website, would they? Would you be shipping that out here?

Travis  57:50  

Oh, yeah, yeah. So that would be have that on one stock and it would go out today. We ship Priority Mail standard and so We have customers in New York, they get things in one or two days. It can take up to four days, but you know, one to four days is pretty normal will ship UPS or FedEx Ground. In the cases where it’s a really heavy item. It’s just a little bit more, a little bit less cost that way, but usually we’re shipping priority mail. And one thing I was thinking of Dave, you know, speaking of these different outfits and stuff we’ve actually got if you go on our website under rods, and then go go to gorge fly shop outfits. We’ve got a whole bunch of outfits that we’ve kind of pre put together cool people. Cool. So you know, we’re we’ve matched the line for the best performance and you don’t have to think about that. And kind of depending on the price of the rod, we kind of paired it with the to kind of match that quality Okay, so that’d be well worth taking a look at.

Dave S  59:05  

perfect all Yeah, I’ll take a look at that and I’ll put a link I’ll put a little redirect. So if somebody, actually that might be I’ll put a couple links there but we’ll make it clear so they can if they wanted to purchase and give the commission here to the podcast, I’ll set that up so it’s good to go but no, that’s great. So yeah, you have that that talks a little bit about kind of the different rods and different like what they’re doing you probably do you have like a euro setup and all that stuff.

Travis  59:29  

We have some euro setups we have, a bunch of like nine foot five weight setups, we’ve got some saltwater setups, bunch of spey rod setups and then we’ve kind of tuned up some trout space setups also, okay, cool.

Dave S  59:46  

Yeah, now just to make it easy, I’ll put one more one more link over at wetflyswing.com/rods and the the rods will be that link you just mentioned. So let’s wrap this up. I got a just a quick Illinois. You kind of wrap it up with the tu tu tu and that’s top two tips top two flies top two resources and we’re talking trout fishing here and you mentioned do a little trout on the hood but would you What would you be your to go to trout flies if you had to had to just pick two.

Travis  1:00:16  

if I just had to pick two, it would probably be a hell Bop Leach just simply because I’ve used them in so many different locations, and a dry fly. My favorite all around dry flies still in Elk hair caddis I mean it’s nothing fancy but, but an elk hair caddis, you can imitate so many different dries with.

Dave S  1:00:38  

What What color do Do you have a color that you typically use more often?

Travis  1:00:42  

I’d probably use gray more than anything. Oh, yeah. Okay. hell bop probably brown or black.

Dave S  1:00:48  

Okay, cool. And what about so you know, tips do you have two tips and we were talking a lot about choosing a rod, but do you have any other tips as far as maybe trout fishing that you throw out there?

Travis  1:00:59  

Well, I think I think for trout fishing like I said, the biggest mistake in rivers is anglers try to cast too far. you know you line controls everything so you’ve got to control your fly you know, that’s, that’s really critical. And then lakes probably the biggest mistake is anglers fish towards the surface too much. You know, they need to fish things in lines and get deeper. That’s that’s really important or in in today’s world with all the jigged leach patterns and stuff like that you can still fish a leech off a floating line and fish it under an indicator. That’s right.

Dave S  1:01:39  

That’s right. Are you doing a lot of that? That balanced leech side do you fish lakes as much as you do rivers?

Travis  1:01:45  

Yeah, I do. I do. I grew up with family vacations to Crane Prairie. So we started fishing that in the early 80s. So I have a lot of like experience and I’ve spent a lot of time doing that. Yeah, you know, we find ourselves using more and more of those balanced leeches. I always tell people the reason why they work so well is because you’re not moving your fly that much. And when I used to guide some private lakes, I always told my clients, it’s not possible to move your fly too slow. It’s not possible, but it’s really easy to move it too fast. And so I think it’s a great way for anglers to learn how to fish their fly when they go to a sinking line. because you know, fish it slow. Get a slow sinking line, and fly this not too heavily weighted in fish it slow. 

Dave S  1:02:42  

And then just to wrap that up top two resources. So, if you look at trout fishing, and you have a blog, right at your site, do you talk I mean, you have updates and things do you do kind of blog and do anything more more in depth there?

Travis  1:02:55  

Yeah, yeah, guys, we’ll we’ll get our from all different all different people and anglers, we’ve got you know a lot of our manufacturers have got some awesome videos that they’re starting to produce. And so that’s up on the blog whenever we get there’s it’s just there’s lots of great information

Dave S  1:03:19  

and didn’t you have this kind of nice I met tom tom larimer was on like way back in Episode 11. And he mentioned I think, did you guys have a blog he started together different website name Yeah, we had

Travis  1:03:31  

we had a website and you know, we still kind of have it in the background at the shop yes called steelheadbum.com right. And it just it was a website that you know, we started to, to kind of be you know, the go to spot for the steelhead fly angler and, and unfortunately, both of us just timewise was really tough. And so you know, we ended up kinda of taking it over at the shop and kind of setting it there. You know, on the back burner for future projects, or, and if we ever get enough staffing that, we can kind of dive into that, we definitely want to want to take that one the next step. That’s cool. So so basically somebody could still go to that site right now and get all the information.

Dave S  1:04:18  

Yep, yep. There’s some information that’s a little old on there, but it’s still relevant. You know, some of the lines and stuff have changed a little bit but but yeah, there’s there’s still some great information there. Okay, perfect. And and again, wrapping up. So resources, what, as far as trout fishing, any other resources you would recommend that people check out? It could be book magazine, videos and other websites other than that’s maybe not your own stuff?

Travis  1:04:44  

Well, you know how it is nowadays. I mean, you can go on the web and search a topic and there’s YouTube videos everywhere, right? And of course, they’re not all not all right. So you kind of serve them but, but I would say that’s probably honestly the you know, One of the top places to learn Now, next to going out with a guide or, or you know, taking taking lessons. Yeah,

Dave S  1:05:08  

that’s right. And you do some guiding or I mean you don’t do specifically or how do you how do you work down?

Travis  1:05:14  

Yeah, I don’t, I don’t guide anymore. Um, you know, life just got too busy and I was always paying somebody to take my spot at the shop so, so I decided to save that time for my own fishing and we work with several great guides, and we’ve got a section on our website with guides kind of the breakdown on what they do. And then of course, we get lots of people that call and you know, want to know who they can book for a steelhead trip or a trout trip or a bass trip.

Dave S  1:05:43  

Yeah, or or, I mean, are those your what do you what trips Do you do more of Do you think more steelhead trout carp

Travis  1:05:51  

Well, there’s definitely where we live because we’re in the heart of steelhead country. Definitely we get more anglers looking for Steeelhead trips than anything? Yeah. But you know, we also got some phenomenal trout fishing with the deschutes right in our backyard. So, so that’s a close second. That’s right.

Dave S  1:06:11  

That’s right. It’s almost we’re getting around to salmon fly. Time again almost seems like it’s

Travis  1:06:16  

far away. So yeah a couple months cool Travis

Dave S  1:06:20  

All right. Hey, that’s that’s about all I have any. You know, when you think about the conversation we had today, any anything you want to leave everybody with anything that comes to mind that everything we talked about that kind of we can leave them heading off in the distance with?

Travis  1:06:36  

Well, just like I said, do your research but honestly, the best thing to do is find somebody you really trust. Yeah. Because you know, what I find is, anglers confuse themselves more surfing the internet looking at reviews, and it’s like I tell people, every piece of equipment I have, I can show you a good review and I can show you a bad review. You know, so find somebody you trust and just trust us cool.

Dave S  1:07:04  

I love that you said that because, the online space which is kind of where I live a lot of the time. Trust is is probably even more important, because you’re not making that personal you’re not shaking their hand you’re not looking at the you know, these people in the eye so I love they said that because this is a big reason why I wanted you to come on to to show people because I want people when they come and they say hey, I need a rod and if they’re looking for me to guide them, you know, I want to be able to direct them to somebody and you’re and you’re that person you know, and that’s part of the reason why you know, you’re basically building that trust, for what I’m doing here. So I appreciate you coming on and sharing that information today.

Travis  1:07:44  

Well, thanks a lot Dave. I I appreciate all your help to

Dave S  1:07:49  

in the next before they get out here next six to 12 months anything new you’ve got coming on, at least with the shopper I know the big move you just had that that was huge, but anything else we can expect from you.

Travis  1:07:59  

Well, we have got June 27, what was last year our grand opening party was such a success that we’re gonna do something similar. It’ll be a customer appreciation party, but we’re going to have all the reps here and, and a bunch of prizes and some different seminars going on throughout the day and, and we’re working on trying to get the Rajeff brothers back to see if we can find another casting competition. They can compete against each other in

Dave S  1:08:32  

cool. So that’s June 27. that’s a that’s a Sunday.

Travis  1:08:35  

June 27. Yep,

Dave S  1:08:38  

June 27. And now I’m looking at that on Saturday. It’s a Saturday and now I’m looking at that on my counter. And I’m not positive but

I’m hoping to be there because I want to get there and actually have some of our listeners of the show. Maybe come by to and have a little, a little that would be great. Yeah, definitely

Travis  1:08:54  

set up for you.

Dave S  1:08:56  

Oh, cool. Cool. So you’re doing this is a full booth thing. You got it. You got the full deal. Go Hear?

Travis  1:09:01  

Oh, yeah, yeah, no, it was a it was a big hit last year. You know, we had people fly in from Montana and Okay. Oh, can we? Yeah, we had customers from all over. Oh, this is

Dave S  1:09:13  

perfect because I think what I’ll do is, you know if it works maybe I’ll just bring my audio equipment and set up some mics and people can come down and chat and we can do some you know, kind of hang out and just have fun with it.

Travis  1:09:23  

That’d be perfect.

Dave S  1:09:24  

Okay, perfect. All right, Travis. All right. So it’s the it’s the gorgeflyshop.com

Travis  1:09:31  

it’s just gorge fly shop calm. That’s right.

Dave S  1:09:33  

I always get that. I always think the gorge right. So it’s everybody puts in front of me. That’s right. And I just say so that’s good to clear. And then that gorge. Can you spell that for us just so we get that right.

Travis  1:09:43  

g o r g e fly. Sh o p. That’s it.

Dave S  1:09:48  

All right. All right, Charles. Hey, thanks again for coming on. I’m going to keep up with you here and for sure that that meetup here is in a few months. So we’ll check back on that and until then I’ll talk to you have a good time. All right. I see travis So there you go. You want to find all the show notes for links we cover just go to wetflyswing.com/133 a reminder on the new podcast launch that’s coming up very soon. If you have a business or an entrepreneur want to improve your game online, wetflyswing.com/online for more information and to be there for the big launch. Be great to have your support for this one when we get going. Thanks again for stopping by check out showdown look forward to catch up soon hope maybe see you online or on the river. Thanks for listening to the wet fly swing fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode visit wetflyswing.com And if you found this episode helpful, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes.

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